# LGB model background research



## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Guys,
How do I find out what real locomotive a model represents? There are a lot for sale used that are not made/sold/in online catalogs any more and I would like to determine what they represent from real life.

Mostly LGB for now.

Thx!


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Helmut, post the LGB model numbers and I will try to give you links to info on the real engine they are modeled after. I have most of the LGB books. Mike


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Mike,
Thx!

2080
2070
2117/2017 (pretty sure these are fantasy - made from Stainz)

But I was hoping there is a way to help myself, but maybe not. It might be required to have all the catalogs, etc.

Appreciated!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

LGB 2080 - Harz Railway

LGB 2070 - Zillertal Railway

LGB 2017 - Pure freelance. This was LGB's first stab at a locomotive to appeal to the US market. Take an existing loco, toss a big red box headlight and cowcatcher on the front of it, and hope people buy it. It's an Americanized version of their 2015 locomotive. That locomotive (Deutsche Reichsbahn 99.2815) may or may not actually have a prototype. I can't find any information on that specific locomotive on-line, but the LGB catalog describes the model as being "based on" locos of that ilk, not necessarily a single specific prototype. I found some references to a Lego model of the same locomotive, so it may well be there's a prototype for the original European-styled version of the loco. 

Later,

K


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

East Broad Top said:


> so it may well be there's a prototype for the original European-styled version of the loco.


If not a specific individual prototype, then at least a prototype for the configuration, such as,
http://steam-locomotives-south-africa.blogspot.com/2015/04/miscellaneous-cane-tramway-images.html


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut;

The practice of adding cowcatchers and North American headlights to European locomotives has a long history. Marklin and Bing were doing just that in the 1890s to clockwork sets for the North American market. We have books on toy trains at the hobby store that show some of those vintage examples.

Cheers,
David Meashey


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

While the Americanized Stainz type engines are a "foobie" They are probably one of the most durable engines LGB produced with a somewhat american outline to them. They will run almost forever with minimal maintance. The 2080 Harz narrow gauge railway engine still exhists, and with a trip to Germany, you can ride behind it on one of thier lines. The Zillertalbahn railway runs along the floor of the Ziller valley at the base of the Alps on the Austrian side. Beautiful line, lots of great youtube videos of it and the Harz railway. Pretty much every engine other than the Americanized Staniz and the 2015d had a prototype. Most LGB catalogs show these prototypes on the pages for the models. There is also a good book that explains the EPL wiring system for thier signals and turnout controls that also has the back story on most of the common LGB models prior to the bankruptcy of the original company. Mike


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Mike Toney said:


> While the Americanized Stainz type engines are a "foobie" They are probably one of the most durable engines LGB produced with a somewhat american outline to them. They will run almost forever with minimal maintance.


I'll second that. The 2017 was dad's and my 2nd LGB locomotive. Ours is 40 years old and still running strong! It's also very easy to kitbash to "Americanize" it even further. 










This is an old photo. The wood on the cab is simply laminated over the original LGB cab, and the stock boiler wrapped in styrene sheet to give it a more typical American appearance. I turned the domes out of acrylic, but proper domes are easily acquired from Trackside Details today. The loco has since been shopped a few times since this photo was taken, converting it "back" to a coal burner and returning it to its original 0-4-0 wheel arrangement. (The front pilot wheel never stayed on the track.) I thought I had a photo of it in its current configuration, but I can't find it anywhere. Control is via Airwire with everything fitting in the tender. 

The 2070 was our first loco. It--too--runs very well, though it currently lacks an R/C control system so it doesn't see service outside running around the Christmas tree. 

Later,

K


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx guys, very helpful. much appreciated.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Looks like the 2080 is out, it does not fit my desired era. The 2070 would work if I can find one at a resonable price. I will look for a 2017 in the interim.

FWIW, I am looking for my RR to be operating in the 1890-1910 era if anyone has other suggestions. Mostly small loco's and rolling stock but I want one or two larger locomotives as well.

Thx guys!


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Guys,
are there other model numbers for the 2017 style locos?


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## Ted Yarbrough (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut,
Look at http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...ve.TRS1&_nkw=lgb+2017+locomotive&_sacat=19151 for some on ebay.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Ted - yep did that already. I was just wondering if there are other model numbers for this style of locomotive? Like the Stainz has several different model numbers. It also looks like Marklin now has 5 digit model numbers for the old LGB products? Or was that a late LGB thing?

as an aside, can a Stainz be 'coverted' to an americanized version with LGB parts for the 2017? I have a Stainz #3 and would consider converting that.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Yes that era would eliminate the 2080, its prototype didnt come around till 1939ish, and was a one only model, was going to be the prototype for a whole bunch of them, but the war changed that and the Harz standardized on the 2-10-2 monster tank engines the the 99-6001 remained the sole version of its class. Mike


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## Ted Yarbrough (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut,
LGB did the 5 digit number system on their later items. It is possible that there could be some number variations, as they had a yellow Lake George & Bolder, gray D&RGW, and a couple other paint variants of this loco.


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## Ted Yarbrough (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut,
Try http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...TRC0.H0.Xlgb+2117.TRS0&_nkw=lgb+2117&_sacat=0 for an LGB 2117 loco. Look at the set loco a couple listings down.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

hlfritz said:


> as an aside, can a Stainz be 'coverted' to an americanized version with LGB parts for the 2017? I have a Stainz #3 and would consider converting that.


Should be able to. The smokestack is interchangeable with other long-shaft LGB smokestacks. (The smokestack is part of what holds the boiler and cab to the chassis.) The headlight bracket just slips between the smokestack and the boiler, and the front cowcatcher replaces the front loop coupler of the Stainz. 

The difference will be the cab. The 2015/2017 cab has a vertical, open back so crews can get to the coal in the tender. The Stainz has a closed wall that has a slight taper at the bottom. 

Later,

K


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## Ted Yarbrough (Jan 2, 2008)

Also 2217 http://www.ebay.com/itm/LGB-2217D-ENGINE-/222526044387?hash=item33cf95f8e3:g:YEMAAOSwtfhYrF7I So, I'm guessing there was several variations/paint scheme/numbers of same basic loco. They are good locos as others have stated. Also, LGB Toy Train and LGB Porter locomotive are very good. I'm currently running a Lehmann's Toy Train Porter with the LGB powered tender and they are both about 15 years old and work well.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

I was kinda wondering about the Porters. I have read they are weak pullers, but in RL they did not pull much either really.

It also seems the Lehman Porters are kinda large? Are they kinda the same size as the Stainz and 2015 and 2017, etc, etc.?

I do not mind hypothesizing that my Porters are the larger sizes. 

BTW, Thx Ted! just needed those model numbers.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

hlfritz said:


> It also seems the Lehman Porters are kinda large? Are they kinda the same size as the Stainz and 2015 and 2017, etc, etc.?


They're going to be a smaller loco than the Stainz or 2015/2017, though the cab itself is going to be similar in proportions. In both cases, the cab is quite ample (and then some) when scaled at 1:22.5 for a 6' tall person. That's the "human factor" in play there. The porter is a decidedly light locomotive, though. You're absolutely correct in that they would not have been heavy pullers--probably on the order of three or four cars. 

Later,

K


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The 2015 is 2017 when sold with the powered tender.
LGB codes:
ABCDE
A is 1 for track, 2 for engines, 3 for passenger cars, 4 for freight cars, 5 for electric. 6 for parts and powered tender, 7 for sets, 8 for cable sets, 9 for toytrains usually green boxes.
B is 0 for first model then next model was 1, 2, etc.

4 digit models were pre 1995, LGB switched to all 5 digit models after 1995.
Gold sticker on bottom is date code, first and last digit are the year., 2 digits for month and day is always 01.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx Dan, so a LOT of used stuff I am looking at is quite old actually!


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Dont worry about age with LGB product, the 2073d that sees almost daily run time on my garden railway is as old as I am(44). Parts are still available, even replacement motors. Like Marklin in the smaller scales, for the most part, you can get parts for most any LGB product out there. Mike


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Mike,
no, not woriied actually from accounts here. Just surprised!

Does anyone have more input on the Lehmann Porters? Are they worthwhile even though not true LGB? The later, and I think actual LGB Porter (Lehmann Sugar Company) is beyond my financial reach right now.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Mine certainly runs well enough, but I bought mine from a guy who dropped and broke it, so I had to give it a complete overhaul before I could put it in service. I have a friend in Rochester whose entire railroad roster was made up of these locos, and she didn't seem to have any issues. I do hear folks talk about the locos' gears wearing out, but I also wonder how much the locos in those cases are pulling? It's a light loco (the model--measured at 1:20.3--scales out to an 8-ton Porter). It's not _supposed _to be pulling long trains. Also, some of the folks complaining about the quality of the Lehmann Porters have a history of complaining about _any _train not made in Germany, so I tend to take their comments with something of a grain of salt. I also have read a lot of folks having very good results with their Porters. 

I know there are subtle variations between versions based on features (some have smoke, some don't) country of origin (Germany, Korea, Hungary), etc. I don't know enough about them to tell you if there's any kind of pattern as to which ones you may want to gravitate towards. I like mine, but--as I wrote--I got it used (and in pieces), so I can't tell you where it was made.

Later,

K


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Kevin,
Thx. I might look at some of these then, if I can find reasonable (my reasonable that is) prices. I put my Stainz and a few shorty cars on the track and they look really good together, so I think the Porters will as well.

I only plan to pull 3-6 cars at a time with these Porters (or westernized Stainz), mostly building trains/switching duties. Maybe the occasional work train as well.

Seems like they would be perfect for that.


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## Mike Flea (Apr 8, 2014)

I have a 2077D Porter, the one made in Korea, and the nylon axle gears melted, and I was only pulling 3 HLW mini's and an LGB caboose. But on a good note, Dan (above) at Trainli, says he has the replacement gears.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

that is the kind of thing that scares me away from them. 

The actual LGB Porters are recent and pricey, yes?

Mike do you think you got a lemon? did you have the mini's loaded with rock or anything?


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been running the LGB toytrain cow engine which is much like the porter for more than 10 years pulling 8 short 2 axle cars with metal wheels and loads on R1 curves on a reversing unit track I used a 1 foot isolated track fed by a 3 ohm resistor before the diodes to slow the starts and stops. This is level and indoors, never lubed it or repaired this engine. For extra pulling power I added weight (approx 10 ounces).


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## Ted Yarbrough (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut,
I use my LGB Toytrain Porter on logging line and pull two Aristo Classic logging cars with plastic logs and a caboose (varying between Bachmann, LGB, and MDC/Piko bobbers). I also use LGB powered sound tender with the loco. All have been working for years with no problems.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

The Korean built Porters are known for gear issues unfortunatly. The later ones are much better, but that comes at a price. The shop I get most of my LGB from has one, and its not cheap. One could get 3 Stainz engines for less money off evilbay. I snagged this deluxe version of the Stainz for under $100 with shipping! You can also watch for the Chloe engine, an ex suger plantation 0-4-2. The old version had a toothed belt, the new version has a gear drive. both are not nearly as robust as the bigger engines. If you mate the Staniz size engine to larger rolling stock, like for 1:20.3 scale, it helps it look much smaller. Mike


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Mike,
yeah I am looking at Porters, but it seems one can get a western/american-ized Stainz for less.

I am wondering if that is a better way to go than the Porters, but I sure do like the Porters' looks (for some reason!).


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Only really good way is to "bite the bullet" and pay up for the newer version of the Porter. Or just settle with the look of the Staniz series, either Euro or the Americanized version. If you want to do lots of running with grades, you best value and most durable is anything that uses that Stainz motor block. Anything else is more expensive or outside your era of operation. That is where the 2080 Harz 2-6-2Tand the Spreewald 2-6-0T, both are more expensive than I want to spend right now. I only bought the 2120 that I posted the pic of as I was racking up some serious hours on my old 2073d green 0-6-2 Eurovapor engine. Mike.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Are the drives the same on the Porters regardless of where they were built? If the gears on the Korean-sourced Porters are suspect, but the gears are the same as the German/Hungarian-built ones, it'd be simple enough to swap out the gears. 

Later,

K


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I honestly do not know. I cannot remember if it was the quality of the plastic used in the Korean production or the design itself. A call to a LGB repair center should yield the answer, or a google search. Should be well documented by now. Check with Traincraft by Claus. He is a bit of a "special person", but a wealth of knowledge on LGB. He has a nice blog/website. Mike


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## Mike Flea (Apr 8, 2014)

hlfritz said:


> that is the kind of thing that scares me away from them.
> 
> The actual LGB Porters are recent and pricey, yes?
> 
> Mike do you think you got a lemon? did you have the mini's loaded with rock or anything?


No, I don't think I got a lemon. I think it worked well when it did, but I may have been partly to blame. My layout sits in an open yard, devoid of shade except in the late afternoon/early evening. The day it crapped out was a particularly bright, sunny, hot July day, and as I sat in the shade of my gazebo, sucking on an ice cold beer, I nodded off listening to the clickety-clack of it running around the track. What woke me up was when it stopped. This happened in 2014, so I had 21 years of good running. 

I only paid $99 for it brand new back in '93. One mini I transformed into a coal tender using lightweight plastic irregular shaped rocks from a bracelet making kit from Hobby Lobby, the other 2 were empty gons.

The German made Porters are a bit more pricey, but I also believe they are better made.


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## Mike Flea (Apr 8, 2014)

East Broad Top said:


> Are the drives the same on the Porters regardless of where they were built? If the gears on the Korean-sourced Porters are suspect, but the gears are the same as the German/Hungarian-built ones, it'd be simple enough to swap out the gears.
> 
> Later,
> 
> K


 They have a different pitch on the gears, the German made one is courser than the other, I didn't know that when I purchased new axles with the gears mounted from OnlyTrains.com.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Mike,
well 21 years for $99 is not too awful bad!

which gear ha a different pitch? i am guessing that the worm and primary gear? maybe all of them?

but if the German made one is coarser, would that not mean the motor spins faster for the same speed? but I guess it depends upon all the gears.

do the German gears fit into the locomotive drive if one replaced all of them? just curious.


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## Mike Flea (Apr 8, 2014)

The axle gear pitch was courser than the worm gear pitch, so they couldn't mesh.

The new axles are a drop in replacement, so I didn't force fitment, the gears just didn't mesh due to different pitches. The original Porter wheels were solid and black. The new ones that I had purchased were red and spoked, I probably should have taken that as a warning, but not knowing any better, I figured a Porter was a Porter.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a friend that makes brass axle gears Fine tooth version, not coarse) for the porter.
I do not expect another failure ever with the engine I put these in.
I have 7 different porters and only one had a failure!! I once got brand new cow engines for $20 apiece.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

If you're on Facebook, check out the G-scale Swap and Shop group. There's a guy on there selling powered tenders for $75 each, and also has a 2017 loco for $75.

Later,

K


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

No, don't do Facebook. Thx though!

I am stuck.

Any recomendations one way or the other for the 2017 style vs. Porter style? which has more room for sound and battery and decoder? I do plan to add a tender to any Porter, and would likely do so for a 2017 as well.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I put sound and battery inside the Porter with no tender, so there's "plenty" of room if you use the right components. (I used a 2-amp TCS WowSound decoder with an Airwire Convertr receiver.) 

Given the choice, I'd probably opt for the 2017. That takes the guesswork out of the equation with respect to the gears. The motor block in the 2017 is the same one that's in many LGB locos, and is bulletproof. The loco and tender have the same motor block, so they're already going to be speed matched. One decoder will easily run both of them. When I was growing up, I'd routinely pull 10+ cars behind ours up and down 4% grades. 

Get yourself a can of black spray paint and some Trackside Details detail parts and have a blast modifying it. The early issues of Garden Railways featured a number of railroads whose owners had modified their 2017s to varying degrees. The early issues are included on the Garden Railways DVD, if you're looking for some inspiration. Bob Treat had one or two which come to mind as being particularly memorable, but there were others as well. 

Later,

K

*Disclaimer - I write for Garden Railways, but receive nothing from the sale of the DVDs.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thank you sir! I have a line on a couple 2017's and a couple of German made Porters. The 2017's are less expensive than even the Korea made Porters in general - go figure.

I could get one of each, but then that rules out a Forney for now. That might be OK. Decisions!


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

You can find LGB powered tenders with sound. Most have bell and whistle with magnet activation, but there is one model that is chuff only. Chuff is voltage sensed, no trigger input available. 
I have a non sound powered tender that I placed 2 laptop speakers in on the sides after cutting square holes. Wired in parallel to get 4 ohms worked great.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx Dan. I am not really interested in a powered tender. My trains will not be long, I want to add a tender to house the electronics/battery - or at least help with that. My intention is to use either a DCC (sound and able to control smoke unit) decoder and either Airwire or S-CAB receivers OR a Bluerail board (if they get the things done I want before I need them - onboard sound and large scale amperage), LiPo batteries (maybe with S-CAB BPS), and some type of smoke unit with (pulsing) fan. I still have to work out all the details, but that is the general idea. That is why I am trying to save on the locos and other stuff, the electronics are going to cost me (looks like twice the cost of the locos, maybe three times).


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

For DCC operation with a small engine and pulsing smoke and even remote uncoupling, This can be done with an LGB engine and the less than $100 Zimo MX645P22 decoder. Download the manual at zimo.at http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/MX-KleineDecoder_E.pdf
When installing a fan driven smoke unit in a small engine, it goes in place of weight in the boiler so pulling power will lessen. I added weights in the Stainz water/coal bins.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx Dan! I had not even heard of Zimo before I started reading on this site. Is 1.2A enough for motor and fan driven smoke, or is .8A enough for fan driven smoke, lights and sound? Guess I need to do some amperage measurements and testing.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

The 2017's are cheaper as they have been made by the thousands and are "dime a dozen", where as the porters are a bit harder to find. The powered tenders lack a traction tire so that they can "slip" a little bit as even though they are the same motor/gear box as the loco, no two motors are perfectly the same speed wise. The LGB Mallets are the same one, one block has the tire, other has just metal rims. I have quite a few old Garden Railways magazines in my collection, as well as LGB Telegram. There are many articles on converted and bashing the 2017 and 2020 engines. Back then, not much else was available that ran well, espically outdoors. Mike


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

There are 2 versions of the MX645. The one with wires is 1.2 amps, the P22 version has an adapter board and is 1.5 amps plus has low voltage supply pin. Wired version is $15 less than the P22 version.

I run the LGB rail truck and LGB 2090 (has the standard 62201 short shaft motor) with MX642's and MX645 wired versions.
Note this decoder is HO, but voltage rating is 35 volts, 50 peak volts and current is 1.2 amp and 2.5 peak amps. Also 3 watts audio. Can control 2 servos also which I do to Kadee couplers ( I use my own servos, chain. standard Kadee couplers) and I program the automatic uncoupling sequence referred to as a 'waltz'.

Note that Zimo gives all specs on their decoders, many other manufacturers do not list the peaks.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Yeah I was concerned that it was an HO decoder. That is why I asked. All of the other manufacturers I have looked at do list peak - TCSWOW, Soundtraxx, and ESU - but I am liking the Zimo for price and functionality. So it will handle the voltage, that is good.

Do you have sound as well? smoke?


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Guys,
How about the LGB Toy Train line? How good are those locomotives?

I know they can be detailed, how about kitbashed to Americanize? at least a bit.

and the cars? i am thinking they should be usable and are on the small side?


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

I have bashed the toy train crane car into a nice little utility crane, and the sorta caboose/small box car into a rear end van
Turned out nice

Jerry


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The Zimo MX645 takes the same sound libraries as the MX 69xxx series.
Even the older MX640 will take these sounds!!
And smoke, servos, ditch/gyro,dimming of lights is programmable.

Note the toytrain line has smaller motors than the standard 62201/62204 motors.
I have over 5 of these various toytrain engines and the run great.
I repainted the cow engine and it looked much better, but I did keep one and I have a Cow train with the 'cow' toytrain caboose, tank car and even a gondola I repainted with cow prints like the engine.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've used the MX645 in a number of small locos.






Greg 1,148


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx guys.

Greg I will have 1 or 2 Bachmann 0-4-0 side tank Porters, 1 or 2 LGB saddle tank Porters, and a Kalamazoo 4-4-0. Do you think that decoder will handle these? I hope to get to some power testing over the next couple of weeks.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The best thing is run them under load on DC, measure the current, and then make your determination.

Greg 1,143


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The LGB porters will not be a problem.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx Dan. I will do some testing soonish (still waiting on a LGB Porter and the Kalamazoo 4-4-0).

I will probably start a new thread on that in the appropriate section of the forums.


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