# Track laying - FAIL



## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Well, after surveying the winter damage, The method i tried last summer for laying track failed. What i did was to embed a 1" pvc thin wall pipe in a small trench. anchored it with small 1x2 stakes and back fill with chicken grit. The majority of it has pushed up. I dont know if i will just push it back or rip it up and try something else. Ive been following Marty's ideas with poured concrete, but then ive seen those landscape edging bricks that have a rounded end on them. I also watched the make a wish video on Garden Railways site. By the way if any of you who worked on that for the boy are here. Thank you. You guys did a wonderful job. Anyway back to this post. They used cinder blocks (8x8x16) filled with gravel and used stucco type of stuff on top. So i dont know which would be more work, mixing/pouring concrete, or laying all those blocks/filling with gravel. Boy its going to be a long spring/summer repairing track and juggling Tech school.
Thanks for letting me share.
Greg R.


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

I am not getting how you used the 1" PVC? Any pictures? 
I am looking for new ideas on how to install my track this time, what I used on my last layout worked fine, just seeing if there is anything out there that would maybe be better!


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

The pvc was laid horizontally. if that helps. 
Greg R.


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

i just checked the concrete estimator calculator. Its saying one #60 bag for 10 feet of roadbed. That may be do-able. plus the price of re-bar. i used 10 feet x 4.5 inches (.375) x 4 inches (.3333) = ~ 1.25 sq feet. 
so assuming a bag is like $5 plus rebar ($5) = $10-ish. thats only $1 per foot. but wait, those bricks are only 88 cents........and are about a foot....still confused on which method.....well back to more research... 
Greg R.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

FWIW I use concrete about 1.5 inches thick and about 5 inch wide trench. Dont use rebar, use a galvanized hardware cloth 
http://www.midlandhardware.com/36-i...lvanized-Hardware-Cloth-19-Gauge_p_88134.html 
I bllast with #9 small gravel on top of concrete. In 3 years so far, works well, stays in place in MD hot and freeze thaw weather and keeps weeds and plants from coming up in right of way.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think a little more research on frost heave is in order









Greg


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

I would agree with Greg. You can check with your local building department on the frost depth, but unless you live somewhere where it is less than 12" (Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Nevada, southern California, etc.), you might want to look a little farther down the road and go with an elevated system. [When you get older, the knees and back aren't as happy with bending over or crawling around in the dirt]. If you are trying to get a more "natural" look in the garden areas, you can raise the track bed only a few inches and the plants can hide your elevated sections. Placing PVC uprights every 3-4 feet and embedding them in concrete below frost depth should allow the track to remain level as the earth moves. I've seen several plans and layouts were the soil was over excavated to below frost depth and back filled with ABC (aggrate base course -3/4" cracked granite) which allows moisture to move away and then usually won't move up or down. Lots of methods, you just have to measure your time and pocket book to the task. Good luck, Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The other tip on frost heave that I found interesting when I learned it, but was a "doh" once you thought about it was tapered ends on your stakes. That really "helps" frost heave, as the ground freezes, it pinches the stake from the sides too, as everything is expanding. 

Pinching the end of a tapered stake forces it upward. So instead of pounding stakes in the ground, it's better (and a whole lot more work) to dig the hole and put a flat-bottomed stake or post in the ground) 

Good luck on your solution, frost heave can be tough to work with if you are putting stuff on the surface too. 

Chris, why do you say to use hardware cloth instead of rebar? Does it crack less? (I assume you are talking the 1/2" hardware cloth or similar, not the big 6" wire squares typically used in concrete) 

Regards, Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

What i did was to embed a 1" pvc thin wall pipe in a small trench. anchored it with small 1x2 stakes and back fill with chicken grit. The majority of it has pushed up. 
I'm not clear what the pvc pipe was for? Carrying power cables? Why under the track? 

Where are you located? I used 6-8" of crushed rock/crusher fines/rockdust in a trench when I had a garden layout in central Maryland, and I had no problems with frost heave. 

I'm also suspicious of those spikes. Frost heave does funny things.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I may be wrong on the idea but.......Driving stakes in the ground increases the chance for frost heave? If the roadbed was allowed to float would frost heave be minimized? 

I do not drive stakes in the ground but on the other hand I do not have a frost issue. 

JJ


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 26 Mar 2013 10:07 AM 
What i did was to embed a 1" pvc thin wall pipe in a small trench. anchored it with small 1x2 stakes and back fill with chicken grit. The majority of it has pushed up. 
I'm not clear what the pvc pipe was for? Carrying power cables? Why under the track? 

Where are you located? I used 6-8" of crushed rock/crusher fines/rockdust in a trench when I had a garden layout in central Maryland, and I had no problems with frost heave. 

I'm also suspicious of those spikes. Frost heave does funny things. 
Pete,
It's not a true ladder. When used in a shallow trench it became a smooth guide for flex track. The stakes hold the curves more than set height, they are also most likely the culprit.

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've read everything I could find on this and read every post on 4 forums about it. Does not make me an expert, but I have a "compendium" of people's experience. 

It seems that a big flat piece of concrete "spreads out" the heaving over a larger area, and it SEEMS that it does not heave up as much. 

Pointy sticks in the ground above the frost line seem to be the worst. 

Stuff WAY below the frost line does not move. 

Stuff NEAR the frost line seems to move a little bit, strongly depending on the size and shape of the end of your "stake" 

The heave is caused by water in the ground freezing... the temperature and amount of water (drainage and soil type) seem to be the biggest factors. 

That is what I have "accumulated" 

Greg


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

I used the pvc pipe as: 1) a filler of sorts. 2) to obtain smooth curves 3) and Yes, to carry wires at sometime later. 
My stakes were pointed. Other questions answered: Im in Eastern Iowa. The railway is in a raised planter, about 48 inches tall. The fill dirt has been there for over a year before laying track. 
im planning on using the concrete method now. Since i planned on installing larger radius switches this year, Might as well fix the roadbed as well. 
Thanks for everyone's input. 
Greg R.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Pete, it's a similar technique to what I used on my railroad. The PVC pipe acts as an anchor for the track to attach to, while the posts anchor the PVC to the ground. I used 2' lengths of 3/8" rebar instead of 1x2 stakes. 

What I've found on my railroad is that this technique is not without its issues. The stakes coming out of the ground are only one issue. My rebar stakes are far enough into the ground where frost heave doesn't move them, but that doesn't keep the PVC pipe from moving up between them. That's not due so much to frost heave, but from the PVC moving side to side with the expansion and contraction of the rails as it moves the track (hence the PVC) side to side. The round cross-section of the pipe means that it rides up over the ballast instead of pushing it side to side. The result is a scalloped profile to the track between each of the posts. 

My solution has been to greatly reduce how often the track is anchored to the PVC on the problem areas like the curves. I attach the track to the PVC only right on top of the rebar stakes, since they don't move very readily. That seems to have made a big difference in reliability in my most problematic areas. The track can move side to side with the expansion, but it no longer pushes its way up and out of the ballast in the process. 

In terms of alternatives, the most common "issue" I've heard with laying bricks as roadbed is that the bricks don't move uniformly, so you may get one brick that moves up relative to the others, requiring you to re-level the bricks every so often. I suppose if you've got (or know folks nearby who might) a paver driveway or similar, you can see how that holds up in your climate to get an idea of how it might work for you. 

Later, 

K


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

One other thought i had, was maybe add fiberglass strips to the concrete mix, instead of rebar or mesh. Thoughts? 
Greg R.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Thought? The more flexible the concrete is the more the chance of Cracking ?.......


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

I thought it was for strenght and to prevent cracking. I will google. 
Greg R.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They have options to put fiberglas or carbon fiber strands in the concrete mix... supposed to dramatically reduce small cracks. 


good discussion here, be sure to read down to where people have had long term experience: *http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/...d-concrete*

From the people I know, the fibers help with small cracks, rebar works very well against large cracks, the large mesh wire (like 6") is ok, but you have to make sure that the mesh and the rebar is not laying on the ground, but suspended into the middle of the concrete.

Pretty easy to do with rebar and "chairs", but very hard to do with the large mesh... I see laborers pulling the mesh "up" after the pour... but it most likely falls back down to the ground afterwards. 

Greg


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iaviksfan on 26 Mar 2013 10:54 AM 
I used the pvc pipe as: 1) a filler of sorts. 2) to obtain smooth curves 3) and Yes, to carry wires at sometime later. 
My stakes were pointed. Other questions answered: Im in Eastern Iowa. The railway is in a raised planter, about 48 inches tall. The fill dirt has been there for over a year before laying track. 
im planning on using the concrete method now. Since i planned on installing larger radius switches this year, Might as well fix the roadbed as well. 
Thanks for everyone's input. 
Greg R. 



Greg,
I am in a *very* heavy frost-heave zone..long cold winters, and the entire months of March and April tend to be above freezing during the day,
and below freezing at night..just huge amounts of freeze-thaw..plus, heavy clay soil! (which makes it even worse)
So I am pretty much in the center of the frost-heave universe..
I put some "test spikes" in the ground the past few winters..and some rocks in the ground..
by spring, they lay flat on the ground..the earth spits them straight up and out..

I have been paying attention to local garden railroads for over 10 years now..
there are two successful methods I have observed, to make frost-heave virtually a non-issue in these parts:

1. For a raised railroad, sit the "benchwork" and track supports on concrete blocks that sit *on* the ground..not in the ground.
then the whole thing rises and falls with any frost heave, and when "frost heave season" is over, everything is basically back where it started.

2. For a more "traditional" garden railroad, with track on the ground, IMO the best method, by far, for those of us in frost-heave climates,
is simply the tried-and-true "dig a trench and fill it with ballast"..sit the track in the ballast, and done..
its the "floating" method..called "floating" because the track just "floats" in the gravel/ballast and isnt attached to anything..

In the spring, there will be some minor re-alignment in places, which is very easy to do, because all you have to do is raise or lower
the problem sections, and fill or remove ballast..

The key, with both methods, is that nothing is IN the ground..everything is ON the ground..
frost heave doesnt have a chance to do its dirty-work of pushing things out of the ground, because nothing is in the ground to begin with..

IMO, concrete seems needlessly complicated and expensive, for no real gain that I can see..and it make moving of track very difficult..
(and some of your tracks *will* want to be moved!  eventually..)

so thats how I plan to deal with frost heave..the simple trench method..
Im going to deal with frost heave by not giving it anything to play with..
for my climate, it seems the best, and only, option..

Scot


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

THe fiber is used to strengthen the concrete, but I would not omit the rebar. 

Kevin probably sumed up the whole problem, but I would like to add to it. The larger the surface area of the stake, the more influence that frost heave has on the stake. 

Another thing I figured out on my ladder roadbed is seal the tops of the stakes if you use a pvc pipe like I did. Its been two winters now, and the only heave I had was last year when one of my stakes I forgot to seal heaved. It was because water was allowed to drain down into the bottom of the stake and it froze and heaved. I have not had any other heave issues.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I'm in Scotty's territory, so let me back up his points with a before & after comparison of the rail yard in my back yard (the yard yard). One photo was taken ten minutes ago - Mar. 26, 2013, and the other was taken in Sept., 2011. See if you can tell the difference.






















I haven't done anything yet this year. I do have a 40 foot stretch in the front of the house that developed a few dips last fall. That'll take me an hour or two lifting up the tracks, shoving some ballast under the ties and checking the grade. While I'm there I'll pull a few weeds that are growing among the pakysandra (sp?). 

JackM


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Lots to consider here. Thank you all for your input. If it ever warms up here, i'll spend some better quality time with the Railroad and evaluate. The government just took 10% out of my unemployment so i'll have to check the budget as well now. 
Greg R.


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