# Outside frame, inside cylinder, narrow gauge loco?



## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Did such a beast ever exist? I know that outside frames were popular for narrow gauge locos especially, narrow gauge was common throughout the world, and inside cylinders were popular in Europe. Does anyone know of a main line loco, preferably 3' gauge, with inside cylinders anywhere in the world, before about 1875? 

Yeah, I'm asking a lot, but if it's out there, somone here will likely know about it.  

The reason I ask is that I've recently gotten it into my mesed up head that I like the looks of the locos built in the US before the Civil War, by various New England builders. They generally had inside cylinders, frequently outside frames (or secondary frames outside the wheels), and all sorts of antique-looking doo-dads on them. I think they're cool! So I want to build a 4-6-0 in the style. But, I'm trying to stick to 1:20.3 3' gauge, which leaves me wondering if such a machine would even be reasonable? 

I did a little figuring, and using Baldwin-style half cranks, there should be plenty of room for cylinders up to 16" or so between the frames, and even a little room for the valve gear as well. But just because it can be done doesn't mean it's a good idea. 

What does everyone else think?


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken, 
The Brits built hundreds if not thousands of outside frame, inside cylinder narrow gauge locos. In all gauges too. From 1ft 11in and up. Lots of 16mm models are built by them in this manner. 
Noel


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## Charles M (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken , 
Here is a website address for the Vulcan Locomotives in Great Britain. Might be something on there of interest. Photos and info going back to 1833. 
Lots of smaller narrow gauge listed ! 

http://www.enuii.org/vulcan_foundry/photographs/pictorial_loco_list.htm 

Charles M SA#74


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Tell me what sort of configuration you are looking for; 4-2-2, 0-6-2 etc tender or tank. 

I will endevour to get the information to you before the end of the week! 

regards 

ralph


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I think therefore I am confused. What do you mean by Inside Frame and Outside Frame?


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By John J on 09/08/2008 5:47 AM
I think therefore I am confused. What do you mean by Inside Frame and Outside Frame? 




'Inside frame' means that the drive wheels are fully exposed, along with the drive rods, too. Here in UK nadn in Europe we also built locos with the cylinders inside the frames, like Thomas, for instance. HE is an example of an outside frame/inside cylinder loco with the cylinders and all the valve gear hidden inside the frames. 

'Outside frame' means that the frame is outside the wheels, which are mostly hidden behind the frames - like a K27 on the Durango & Silverton line for instance. The drive rods and the associated valve gear is all still visible, however, as are the counterweights on the ends of the drive wheel axles. 

Hope this helps. 

tac


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By ralphbrades on 09/08/2008 12:43 AM
Tell me what sort of configuration you are looking for; 4-2-2, 0-6-2 etc tender or tank. 
I will endevour to get the information to you before the end of the week! 
regards 
ralph


Ralph, 

Please don't go to any special trouble on my account. This is one of those "someday maybe" ideas, more thinking about the possibility that anything. 

To answer your question, though, I'm looking for a 4-6-0 tender loco, ideally American, and from 1875 or earlier.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

With apologies to John H. White, Jr., I took a picture of a picture in his book "A History of THE AMERICAN LOCOMOTIVE Its Deelopment: 1830-880" 

It's Fig 25, on page 54, captioned "The New York and Erie's No. 13, built in 1848 by Swinburne. Shown as rebuilt with a spread truck, link motion, and other minor modifications. Note the similarity of this engine and the Tioga." 









This is the best (and so far, only) illustration I've found to give some idea of the style of loco I'm thinking about.


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