# Got the sound working with the K-27 - almost



## Dave Crocker (Jan 2, 2008)

I have sound working in my K-27 with a Phoenix 2K2 sound card.
The only problem left is that the sensors on the left side (I think) are not positioned exactly correct and I get 4 chuffs and a slight space.

I got my K-27 at the end of last week and spent all my time trying to get the optical sensor to work. The engine was going to run at the Del Mar Worlds Greatest Hobby on Saturday  so I ended up running this weekend with voltage controlled chuff.

The engine performed very well, I was pulling 24 cars around the DelOro layout without any slippage.

The optical sensor puts out a low going high voltage on chuff and the Phoenix expects to have it's high pulled low.
The solution is to install a NPN transistor (Radio Shack 2N2222 works fine) with its collector connected to the Phoenix chuff input (pin 15) and its emitter connected to ground (pin 16 and the K-27 ground (J1-5). Now connect the base to the chuff signal from the optical sensor (J1-7). This inverts the signal so the Phoenix board responds.

The optical sensor has another problem though. It doesn't respond with valid chuffs until the track voltage gets up to 4 volts. The engine starts moving on about 1.5 volts and runs at prototypical speed at about 9 volts so the engine has no sound as it starts. To get around this, as a test,  I installed 5 diodes in series with the motor. These diodes drop about 4 volts and require the track voltage to be above 4 volts before the motor starts turning. 

I cut the trace on the plug-in board between one of the chokes and connector pin. 
If this becomes permanent, I will have to install 5 diodes in the opposite direction as well or see if I can find an appropriate Zener.

Now I have to take the cylinder area apart and see if the optical sensor board can be moved to get a correct sounding sequence.
If this can't be accomplished, I'll have to fall back on installing magnets.


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the info Dave. I'm hoping that the start voltage issue won't be a problem with DCC or battery?


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave....Stan Ames said on chat that the optical chuff electronics shifts from 2 chuffs per rev to 4 chuffs per rev based on motor RPM and vice versa.


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## Dave Crocker (Jan 2, 2008)

The optical sensors are located in the cylinders, one on each side and as the piston moves back and forth, the sensor beam is broken by a plastic extension of the piston giving a chuff.
I don't see any shift from 2 chuffs to 4. I get four chuffs at all speeds but they go chuff chuff chuff ....chuff. It sounds bad.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

The chuff sensors are in the cylindars....the chuff electronics are in the boiler...and my understanding was that was where the 4 chuffs per rev changed to 2 chuffs at some speed and that this "fixed" chuff signal was what was sent to the pins on the socket. I'm just the messenger....but I do remember this discussion. The discussion involved opinions that with the socket board, NO electronics should be anywhere but on the plug in board...and that all that should come out of the engine were wires from a device to a pin on the socket. Was a good discussion. 

I gotta say though....life would be a WHOLE LOT EASIER if folks would post, versus email, the solutions to these issues. Chat is a nice place to discuss these issues...and get straight skinny....but it's NOT a repository of modeling information. We've been told that the "solutions" will be posted once they are approved by the manufacturers of the electronic boards...WHEN is the issue.


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## Dave Crocker (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's a clip of the sound. The tender top is off so the sound is a little tinny.
Stan, the 2K2 seems to function at speed.
gold.mylargescale.com/davecrocker/sound.mov


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike.
Here is the actual chuff circuit sent to me by Stan Ames.










Perhaps you could explain how that circuitry will automatically change from two chuffs to 4 chuffs per revolution.
There is a jumper from the output of D3 to D4 that (allegedly) selects whether or not it is 2 or 4 chuffs.

Thanks Dave.  You learn something every day.  The symbol looked like an envelope to me.


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## Dave Crocker (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony, here's a shot of the board. There is a jumper JP1 that when removed (according to the documentation) will take you down to two chuffs per revolution. It comes jumpered as delivered.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

OK Dave.

That is what the circuit seems to show.

Looks like today is a brain fade day for me.
Thanks for the help with the pic.


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## Dave Crocker (Jan 2, 2008)

You click on the image symbol (looks like 2 mountains) then fill in the data.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Looks like a well thought out design by Bachmann here (or whoever does their engineering for them)! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Anyone using a phoenix: If you are using a real time whistle, can you blow the whistle BEFORE you move the engine? I have heard a rumor that even in manual mode, nothing works until you hit the first chuff. That's not how realtime is supposed to work (and, even for automatic stuff, most engines whistle off before they start moving ... that's the point.) 

So, anyone try this? 

Matthew (OV)


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Del, 
The chuff  would be a well thought out design if it actually worked without modifications and additions.

The sound chuffs do not start working until about 5 volts are on the track.  As the loco starts moving at 1.5 volts there is no chuff when the loco starts moving.
Whilst not a problem for battery R/C and DCC users, this is not good for regular DC users.  
Stan Ames/Roger Cutter overcame the problem by powering the Bachmann electronics with the Sierra battery.  That is likely to be a potential point of failure as the Sierra battery will also be powering the smoke unit and classification lamps.
I hate to think what might happen to the Sierra charge circuits if they cannot keep the battery charged under such a load.

Never mind that the chuff output is the wrong polarity for almost all sound systems and requires an inversion transistor.
Now we read that the chuff is incorrectly timed.
you may get: chuff, chuff, chuff, chuff, pause!!!  chuff, chuff, chuff, chuff, pause!!! etc.  

I have no qualms re the actual socket pcb design. I think Bachmann have got that almost right.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Matthew, 
I could of course be wrong, but the way I read that circuit diagram of the chuff, indicates to me the chuff output is on all the time and the power is interrupted by the optos when the chuff timer actually does its thing. 
It does not create the output voltage. It cuts it off. 
That might mean the sound system has automatically cut itself off until reset by the next chuff signal stopping. 
If that is so, it is a really stupid design.


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## Dave Crocker (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony, your post of the optical sensor circuit explains why I saw 0.6 volts on the chuff output when the engine is stationary. The voltage out increases to around 2.8 volts when the sensor is interrupted.

The problem I am seeing with the chuff timing seems to be that one of the sensors is sitting a little too far forward in the cylinder. The sensor should be in the middle of the motion of the moving part. If it is too far forward, you don't get symmetric chuffs.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

This is nutz.
I would not at all be surprised if Stanley designed this chuff circuit.

I have fixed mine, and am doing others on-site.
NO electronics, no polarity issues, works with all 2-wire chuff sound systems.

I am taking photos (after disassembling it for that purpose) and might just post them, or a linque to them.

I locked my #1 and #4 drivers from free-float, so I know where the thing is going to point.
Under load, the keyed axle bites the slots in the driver insulator, and the teeny little springs in no way can center it until you remove the load.
Once you take the play out (and it still trverses 1600 curves and switches, TIGHTER than the 8' minumum stated by the manufacturer), it appears they accidently placed a proper mounting pad right where it needs to be.

Oh, and last time I checked, I haven't seen anyplace in Sierra or Phoenix where the LENGTH of the chuff can be externally modulated while the unit is in operation, so any long/short chuff seems a tad odd.
Maybe I missed it.

Anyway, mine works with parts provided, no rat shack visits.

Anyway, if anyone wants it, I'll put the photos and details up.

TOC


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## Dave Crocker (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, I would like to see how you did it. If these sensors remain a problem, I'll be doing some other modifications.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I can't believe that Bachmann "accidently" found a way to make a realistic sound of an engine "out of time"! I have a DVD of a K37 going up the Animas River that sounds identical to what you are getting. Dave, hopefully you can get this fixed.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Dave.  
Again I could be wrong.
I read it differently.  
Perhaps, even though the loco is stationary, the chuff could still be high at 2.8 volts and drop to .6 of a volt when the sensor works.  It depends on exactly where the sensor is when stopped.  
It might be sensing the position and dropping the voltage down when stationary.
Then again maybe not.
The only way to rresolve this is for Bachmann to tell us exactly how it is supposed to work.
Unfortunately, trying to get answers from Stan Ames, is like trying to get blood out of stone.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I was wondering when we would be hearing from you again TOC. Apparently, you have been busy! I Love it! Please do post your fix.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

http://www.largescalecentral.com/LSCForums/viewtopic.php?pid=55608#p55608 

This shows it. 
TOC


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Whilst I was correct in the circuit theory, I was wrong in the way it works.

The opto is on all the time taking the voltage to ground.  When the light source is interrupted the opto switches off and the available voltage from the + rail of the circuit goes out via the diodes D3 & D4 to the chuff trigger on the sound system.  Or in some cases to the base of the inversion transistor.
So the sound systems that can read a high for the chuff will work normally.

Thank you Stan for the information. 
I just wish I did not have to be insulting to get answers.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2008)

.....um....


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Unfortunately, trying to get answers from Stan Ames, is like trying to get blood out of stone. 


Tony

Sorry, I have been trying to show up on chat to answer questions and have responded to all email.  I only have so much time and most at present is working with the various manufacturers on a variety of topics.  I will try to answer the questions in the below post.  If I missed any please ask again.


Dave....Stan Ames said on chat that the optical chuff electronics shifts from 2 chuffs per rev to 4 chuffs per rev based on motor RPM and vice versa. 


Mike
I think you are confused.  I apologize if anything I wrote contributed to this confusion.

Their is a jumper on the front of the main board in the tender to switch from 2 to 4 chuffs.  The default is 4 chuffs, remove the jumper and you can get 2 chuffs.  Changing from 4 chuff mode to 2 chuff mode is a manual operation and is described in the Ks manual.

Each cylinder has an opto in it.  The piston has a plastic part that interrupts the light at the mid point of the stroke. This means that you get two accurate chuffs produced by the opto in each cylinder.  Use one opto (ie single cylinder) and you get two chuffs, use both optos (ie both cylinders))and you get 4 chuffs.

Since in 4 chuff mode you are using both cylinders the chuffs can be slightly out of sync if both are not aligned.  You can get some very prototypical sounds this way as locomotives right out of the shop tend to have chuffs in time while those needing work tend to have a slight out of time chuff.  I intend to have some of each on my railroad. Perhaps Dave will post procedures for aligning the optos to get a variety of effects.

From a locomotive's perspective the number of chuff triggers produced per revolution is set by the manual jumper.  From a sound boards perspective the number of triggers used to produce a single chuff is an option that can be set and altered based on a number of factors.  

I have done a lot of sound recording and the chuffs of an actual locomotive are very much different from those we have on our typical model.  On most locomotives the intensity of the chuff varies greatly by actual load, we tend to operate our models faster then the prototype and the chuff is much different starting out in low speed with the cocks open then on a grade or when running light.

Since many sound boards also have microprocessors, expect to see great improvements in the chuff sound effects in the coming years.  The optical circuits are part of the enabling technology for this to occur.


We've been told that the "solutions" will be posted once they are approved by the manufacturers of the electronic boards...WHEN is the issue. 


It is my understanding that Bachmann intends to post a variety of solutions in the next few weeks.  I believe they have been waiting for the 3rd party manufacturers to provide inputs and approve the suggestions.  Coordination takes a lot of time and I know they prefer to wait to provide time for everyone to participate.  Expect these also to start showing up on various other sites as well.

The sound chuffs do not start working until about 5 volts are on the track.  As the loco starts moving at 1.5 volts there is no chuff when the loco starts moving.
Whilst not a problem for battery R/C and DCC users, this is not good for regular DC users.  


Sound systems for DC do not work unless the sound electronics have voltage, typically in the 5 volt range.

In DC the traditional way bridging the low voltage gap was to 1) raise the starting voltage of the motor using Diodes (aka LGB) or via electronics (aka QSI, Tsumani light) or 2) provide a energy storage module that charges at the higher voltages and discharges at the lower voltages.  Both capacitors and batteries have been used for this purpose.


This is nutz.
I would not at all be surprised if Stanley designed this chuff circuit.

I have fixed mine, and am doing others on-site.
NO electronics, no polarity issues, works with all 2-wire chuff sound systems.


Dave

No I did not design the circuit.  I am a software and architect and not a hardware type.

I do find it strange that you would go to all cost and trouble to add magnets wires, and sensors instead of installing a simple NPN transistor for the sound systems that need it.  Opticals have been used for a great many years in Large Scale

At low speeds mechanical triggers do work well but at higher speeds they can miss a chuff and the on off time in 4 chuff mode is such that often sound like a blur.  

An optical chuff is much more precise, can be adjusted, and simply sounds better at the faster speeds.  I have never missed a beat using an optical based trigger.  
At the end of this post is a photo showing the transistor if the sound board needs it.  All the transistor is doing is inverting the signal from a positive trigger to a ground trigger. No big deal.


The opto is on all the time taking the voltage to ground.  When the light source is interrupted the opto switches off and the available voltage from the + rail of the circuit goes out via the diodes D3 & D4 to the chuff trigger on the sound system.  Or in some cases to the base of the inversion transistor.
So the sound systems that can read a high for the chuff will work normally. 



Almost correct.  The plus here is the DC positive voltage inside the locomotive and not the +Rail.  But other then that you are correct.  Other sound boards that do not need an inversion transistor are those that use edge triggers to detect the chuff.  For example the ESU sound board will actually detect two triggers chuff, one going positive and one the removal of the positive.  You tell the sound card in this case that two triggers equals one chuff.

As we move forward towards specifying a standard for the internal electronics, we will need to address the chuff interface between locomotive manufacturers and sound board manufacturers.  There is no right and no wrong here, only a need to reach consensus on which way will be used in the future.

Hope that helps

Stan
www.tttrains.com/largescale


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Stanley.
You are simply proving to the entire world your absolute cluelessness.
Cost and trouble?


Those parts come with the sound system!
I added 2 magnets, which I keep from sound systemns that use contact wipers.
You know how long it took to do AND photograph?
20 freaking minutes.
Would take double that just to run to ratshack.

Opticals in LS?
Oh, really?

If you mean a Hall-Effect Switch, yes, but we tried optics years ago and gave up, primarily due to the absolute necessity to seal the optics from light (and the Sun).
 Why does anyone think the optics here are hidden in cylinders?

If any locomotive manufacturer uses them, I will cut them out.
We all need simplicity, especially in the elements.
I've been through this loco end to end, had it all apart, and I see one piece of electronics that will be kept, and that is the flicker driver.

EVERYthing else goes, including the wimpy yellow and amber LED's.

You have spent what, three weeks screwing with the chuff electronics, and I did it in 20 minutes?


And, I figured out all the other stuff, including how to get the loco to fit tight clearances every time?


 


You are spending all your time attempting to prove your complex electronics work, and failing miserably.


Posted By StanleyAmes on 01/15/2008 9:58 AM

Dave

No I did not design the circuit.  I am a software and architect and not a hardware type.

_I do find it strange that you would go to all cost and trouble to add magnets wires, and sensors instead of installing a simple NPN transistor for the sound systems that need it.  Opticals have been used for a great many years in Large Scale
_
Hope that helps

Stan
www.tttrains.com/largescale


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I will comment that there is a likely problem for people using DC track power, as TOC said, because most "DC" sound cards have a provision for a battery to keep the sound going when the track power is below the microprocessor's level. Therefore it is not true that (paraphrased) "you don't need the chuff until 5 volts because your sound card needs 5 volts too". 

So the very popular Phoenix card will work properly with no voltage on the track, but cannot chuff until the chuff's electronics are powered, about 5 volts. 

Therefore a solution would be to power the chuff electronics from a battery. Now, I don't know the load of the chuff electronics, and it's probably not huge, but it might make sense to have a way or illustrate a method to power these electronics from a battery, preferably the same battery that a Phoenix user already has, and test that there are no other hidden problems with doing this. 

Is this more work than 20 minutes? Well, let's see what it takes to power the chuff electronics. Anyone game? (I don't have one). 

Regards, Greg


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2008)

Posted By StanleyAmes on 01/15/2008 9:58 AM

"At low speeds mechanical triggers do work well but at higher speeds they can miss a chuff and the on off time in 4 chuff mode is such that often sound like a blur." 

Just how fast do most LS Steam Train owners run their locomotives? (not counting the Lionel folks who run mach 6 on my kids DVD's)....I assume most folks that buy a $700+ Super Detailed K (or any other fine scale model) would want to run a pretty prototypical "Slow" Speed?  This is more of a real question than an observation.  I typically run my engines slow for the "effect"...


"As we move forward towards specifying a standard for the internal electronics, we will need to address the chuff interface between locomotive manufacturers and sound board manufacturers.  There is no right and no wrong here, only a need to reach consensus on which way will be used in the future.

Stan"

To All involved and interested: I say everyone should follow the old adage....K.I.S.S.  Keep It Simple Stanley!

cale


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By StanleyAmes on 01/15/2008 9:58 AM

Dave....Stan Ames said on chat that the optical chuff electronics shifts from 2 chuffs per rev to 4 chuffs per rev based on motor RPM and vice versa.
Mike
I think you are confused.  I apologize if anything I wrote contributed to this confusion.
Yes, I was confused....but three others on chat understood the same thing from your posting on chat that night of the big chuff discussion. Sorry about passing on bum dope. Hopefully in the next three weeks we'll see some stuff published that helps folks out. Sure hasn't been much information being posted on this new engine.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 01/15/2008 12:19 PM


Posted By StanleyAmes on 01/15/2008 9:58 AM

Hopefully in the next three weeks we'll see some stuff published that helps folks out. Sure hasn't been much information being posted on this new engine.

Uh, gee, Mike......what the **** have I been doing for two weeks but generating, and publishing, how-to's specifically aimed at those without technical know-how?

Why should I even bother?


Especially when I come up with an easy fix, and then get an e-mail from Stanley wanting to work together to fix these problems.

The time to have worked together was BEFORE they locked the design and built the units with the Ames Suggested Electronics.

NOT NOW.

NOW we figure out IN THE FIELD how to get it to work, and if it's a complete cut-and-throw, with installation of stuff proven to function in our equipment and environment over many years, then that's exactly what I shall do.

I have three of these units here now, another due shortly, and another Friday.

I have a good start on un-doing what Stanley has done.

And, none of us should HAVE to.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave....I was NOT criticizing you. Certainly not...but YOU are in a different information chain. You're inside the email loop that is moving a LOT of information around. We learn about it in chat...but NOT what is in the chain. Lots of "I know, but I can't say" being posted in chat. Lots of "wait until the manufacturers approve" (this approach)...and now we know that's (at this point) three weeks out. Lots of "I heard that XYZ company is bringing out something new for the K...but I can't talk about it." Just seems there's an information clog somewhere...until the 3 weeks (supposedly) runs out. 

I've read your four posts on the LSC and GR sites...and appreciate your input. Again, thanks for your contributions. Very much appreciated.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2008)

Hey Mike...try this link for a list of all the mods Dave has posted:

www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/4/view/topic/postid/5892/Default.aspx


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not sure why folks are giving Stan a difficult time, it seems like he is trying to help? I for one find soldering a 3 pin transistor simpler than running wires from the tender to the engine, adding magnets and getting the reed switch just right. If it works then it seems to me to be the simpler solution.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, 

Now you know why Stanley is the past master at denying something he said that is then proven wrong.
Witnesses to his BS are not enough.
You have to have it in writing.
So, in future I respectfully suggest you keep records of the chat log.  Just so the facts are kept straight.

Jimtyp.

Stanley is good at pretending to do all sorts of things.
Sure there is a facade of offering help.
But, when it comes down to the nitty gritty he really is not that well informed.
It took insults from me and plenty of pleading to finally get out of him exactly how the chuff circuit works.
The way the reply was written makes me think Stanley did not compose the text.

Stanley,

The polarised + voltage on a circuit diagram is referred to as the + rail.  Likewise the - negative return path is the - rail.
I can understand that your lack of technical expertise is confusing you in this matter.

To all.
Sure the transistor is a quite simple way of solving the design problem with the chuff.
For those that know what they are doing of course.
Asking the LS consumer to go out and buy extra electronic parts and then asking them to install them just to get a basic chuff operation is fraught with danger for Bachmann.
Not only does the LS consumer have to solder the parts in, they have to be in the correct place and the right way round.
I guess it is not my problem but if Bachmann recommend doing it and the LS consumer stuffs it up, then it will be under warranty.  
Rather them than me to pay the freight costs for all the warranty work.

Dave has come up with an elegant, simple to do and low cost way of fixing the chuff problem, that woks with EVERY sound system that needs a chuff timer.
If Bachmann were smart they would instantly offer a kit to fix the problem like they did with the Shay and the Climax all those years ago.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Jim- 
The wires between loco and tender are already there. 
The reed and at least 2 magnets comes with the sound system. 
If you don't have screws and/or plastic scrap to mount it, use two of the screws that mount the Ames Super Socket, and cut the mount plate from the discarded Ames unit. 

Oh, and the wires to the Sierra reed? 
Included with the Sierra. 

He's had over 3 weeks to get this sorted, now you expect the consumer to get sound system batteries connected correctly to power the chuff and whatever else? 
Who do they complain to when the battery won't hold the charge at low speeds? 
Add a BigBoost and melt the contact springs out? 
BTDT. 

The bottom line is, why are YOU supporting HIM?


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah, so no new wires have to be run, that's good  I looked at your solution chuff and I'm not sure how to implement it. I see a pic of the wheels with magnets (I get that) and a pic of the reed switch mounted (I understand that - and I think quite clever too), but what do the reed switch wires get connected to and how do I get to it? You mention the firebox, but I'm not sure how to open up the firebox and what wires to hook up? 

As far as why I support Stan, I support anyone who provides info to common folks like me that could never hook up sound without help (actually that might be an insult to the common folk, I'm less than common  I also support you and others that have provided valuable info. I just want to get my P5 hooked up the easiest and best way. I do appreciate very much the help that all have provided on MLS, I'd be totally lost without you guys.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 01/15/2008 3:13 PM
Mike, 

Now you know why Stanley is the past master at denying something he said that is then proven wrong.
Witnesses to his BS are not enough.
You have to have it in writing.
So, in future I respectfully suggest you keep records of the chat log.  Just so the facts are kept straight.


Just so you understand Tony....I'm NOT trying to piss in anyone's shoe.  I have NOT bought a K27...but I will...for sure...but only after I read a lot about how well it works...and how rugged it is...and what changes are recommended.  Remember...I'm one with a first generation Bachmann Shay...AND $120 worth of new metal trucks for it after the first set ground itself to bits.  Kinda learned from that lesson....

As for THIS issue....the chuff...I'm NOT in the email chain that is carrying the detailed information around.  Heck, I'm not in any email chain.  I get my information from forums...and Dave Goodson is doing great at posting stuff...just as Dave Crocker did in this thread...and as you've done in several threads as well.  KEEP POSTING is all I can say.  

I'm not going to keep records of what happens in chat...I'm NOT a lawyer and am not trying to pin anyone down...just want factual information posted so I can make my own decisions..  Chat is my daily place to meet with my MLS buddies...and it's supposed to be a fun time...and usually is.  And lately...it's the place where I find out what is in the latest "email" on some subject.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

As someone on the outside who has followed all the BS regarding all the K27 supersocket shenanigans, I just cannot believe that after all that, they still can't get what has to be the simplest thing right!  It's not like there aren't already examples of time-proven chuff trigger designs out there, yet it seems they went out of their way to make a new design and while they're at it make it as complicated as possible.  It seems ridiculous to expect the average consumer to have to solder a transistor onto a circuit board--plug and play my a$$.  As usual, though, the consumer ends up doing the real life testing and probably by round three they'll have it figured out.  What a joke.  I hope Bachmann is watching and reading, and that someone gets a good slap over all of this.

Keith


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Nah Keith.

Seems like they would rather shoot the messenger than get the message right.

Have you seen the amount of work for the "fix" to get the thing to work with the P2k2 on regular DC?

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/36/postid/6623/view/topic/Default.aspx

Bachmann should be issuing a new dummy pcb, not expecting the consumer to "fix" the design faults themselves.
If and when the consumer does "fix" it and (perhaps) gets it wrong, I would be interested to know if the factory warranty still applies, or not.

The mind boggles.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Oooops.
Seems like I pressd the wrong button(s).


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

BTW, on an un-related topic (sort of), 4 of these units are now on-site, and 100% exhibit the issue that Stanley said does not exist. 
The "fix" is going into the remaining three that have not yet been "fixed", and to **** with "procedure", this is a "fix".


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

It's all starting to make sense to me now:

The K-27 is really an experimental lab rat.  It certainly seems to meet the criteria:

1) Alpha-Numeric name
2) Has been 'theoretically tested'
3) Is obviously for experimenting on by others
4) After some training can be made to properly follow a maze-like track
5) Jumps ahead at full speed when you hook a battery directly to it
6) Sucks cool air in, blows hot air out
7) The scientists who have done the genetic engineering are surprised when it's born with 'features' they didn't expect it to have
8) At the end of the day it ends up getting neutered (or 'fixed') and the unnecessary parts thrown away.

So for me at least, it'll be known as K-27 the unlucky lab rat.

Keith


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