# What did this Baldwin 4-4-0 look like in color?



## Jim Schulz (Aug 10, 2009)

Built in 1879-80, the Baldwin 4-4-0 below was used on the C&NW 3-foot gauge Fennimore to Woodman, Wisconsin line from 1880-1916. What's your best guess as what it looked like in color? Specifically, was the cab stained or painted wood? Was there a white line along the running board and tender? If so, why was it painted white? I'm planning on a re-paint/re-decal of an Accucraft live steam Legend 4-4-0.

C&NW #278 circa 1880:










Accucraft Legend 4-4-0 circa 1998:


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

If memory serves, Baldwin used a Wine(burgundy) scheme until around the mid-1870's...



















Sometime around the mid-1870's they switched to Lake (a reddish brown, like Accucraft's NCNG live steam 4-4-0)...










Around 1880 began a short transition period while they switched from Lake to Olive (a dark green,almost black in some light, like Accucraft's SPC #3 live steam 4-4-0)...










Around the turn of the last century, railroads started painting everything on the loco black. Even prior to that, the color schemes mentioned were "catalog standards" and customers could order custom paint jobs with different colors. Lettering styles also varied. The first two images show Style 1 lettering while the SPC #3 has (I think) Style 3, as does the Legend shown iin your post. Style 1 was still used, but mostly on passenger locomotives and depending upon customer preferences. Also there wassome variation in lettering and striping.

As to your specific question, IF the C&NW ordered Baldwin catalog standardcolors in 1879, it probably would have been painted in Lake. If built in 1880, it could have been Lake or Olive. It may also have been ordered in black or some other custom color. It's hard to see any striping on your prototype photo, but certainly it isn't Style 1.


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

If I may add a little to Dwight's notes, 
If the engine is 1879 - 1880, as built styles would have most liikely been Olive Green, possibly gloss black, with a semi-fancy linework and scrollwork. 
A large contingent of 4-4-0s of the C&NW type were built in these years, generally painted Olive Green and gold, style 49. 
Essentially style 49 looks like this: 

http://psc1.virtualfocus.com/DC1227 440.jpg 
From the PCS/MMI On30 4-4-0 model - note however the model doesn't have the correct wheel art due to the huge annoyance doing it correctly is! 

Accucraft's 1881 Baldwin, 'Col. Boone' is black and gold Style 49. Basically this is the same decoration as the engine above, but on a gloss black base colour, rather than Olive Green. The last batch of 3 wagontop 4-4-0s built for the D&RG in 1881 were the very first to be painted black 49, the preceding huge quantiy of 4-4-0 for the D&RG , from 1877 onward which were all Olive Green, style 49. Many other roads, who bought this engine type from Baldwin also recieved them in style 49 in those same years...such as the SPC. 

AC77-724%20R%2020080606%2072.jpg 
Col. Boone - note the correct wheel art on these largescale models - gilded and white lined starburst with red colour near the hub. This is the wheel used on style 49 as well as style 1 of 'Grass Valley' above in Dwight's post. 

If you want to go about this correctly, contact either the California State RR Museum, or better, talk to Cynthia at the DeGolyer Library, SMU Texas and ask for a copy of the original specification sheet for your engine. Note to her the construction number and the name of the original RR to own this engine. The spec sheet, toward the bottom will note the colour and style the engine was painted. My guess, Olive Greem, style 49...just like Col. Boone, only a very very dark green base colour, rather than black. 

I believe DeGolyer are currently digitizing their specs and drawings, so may not be able to supply what you need right now. Cal State RR Museum Library however have Microfish copies of the DeGolyer collection of spec sheets and can supply a copy...these microfish copies are not always easy to read. 

Note also, these as-built colours only lasted a few years, and required repainting by the roads own shops. Since the painters in the shops, were no match for the Masterpainters at the locomotive builders, the new paint jobs were mostly nothing as decorative as the originals. 
Most of these engines were with painted cabs, not polished. But the spec sheet notes the requirement. The spec sheet will state whether there were brass wrappers on the cylinders or domes, brass hand rails or steel etc. Again by 1879 I would think painted wrappers and polished steel hand rails were the norm. 

To help with the dates, based on the review of specification sheets from Baldwin, the timing for the shift in colours appears to be this: 

1870 - mid 1875 - Wine is the base colour (along with several others, but Wine is the basic standard) 
Mid 1875 - 1878 - Lake is the typical base colour (there is a period between 1877 and 1878 where both Olive Green and Lake are used at the same time in the factory). 
1878 - 1952 - Olive green is the basic colour used by Baldwin. Many other colours used in those years, but the stock basic colour is Olive Green. 

Lots of very fancy gloss black engines in the mid 1870s, then diminish, and then comes back in huge numbers in the 1880s, all the while the Olive green is the standard. 

The 1877-1878 transition is interesting. Where the change from wine to Lake was pretty much overnight. with engines such as Nevada County #1 and #2 ('Grass Valley and 'Nevada') both specified as Wine and gold style 1 in early 1875, with the paint colour crossed out and changed to Lake in mid 1875 before the engines left the factory. Lots of other specs like this, where the change was almost overnight. 
The 1877 - 1878 transition of Lake to Olive green is much longer, with engines in both colours being delivered concurrently. A good example is the D&RG 'Poncha' (see accucraft's model of the Poncha 2-6-0), built in Lake and gold, style 49 (same as Col. Boone decoration, but on Lake base), yet this engine was built and delivered after locos like the D&RG wagton top 4-4-0 'Rio Bravo', a classic 4-4-0 painted Olive Green and gold style 49. They were still building Lake engines for the D&RG after new olive green ones were already being delivered...both to the same decoration. I think the reason here is that the 2-6-0s such as Poncha represented the final batches to engines already delivered in Lake colour, while 'Rio Bravo' was the first of a new fleet of 4-4-0s, of which 'Col. Boone' in 1881 was the last. 

Some of my sample artwork is here;
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d61b.htm

The first two sheets are black and gold style 49, as used on Col. Boone.
The 3rd and 4th sheet is Olive Green and gold, style 49, as used on the real San Juan (no red cab!), and most other D&RG, SPC and other 4-4-0s
The 5th and 6th sheets are Lake and gold, style 1 as used on NCNG engines such as Grass Valley. Note that 'Nevada' from the NCNG was also Lake style 1, but had a painted cab, not polished wood as set out in her spec sheet. The Accucraft 'Nevada' mogul was a good effort for style 1 on these live steam moguls, but is missing quite a bit of decoration such as on wheels and cylinders, dome bases and tender flare. The 2-6-0 component of 'Nevada' if we do it again, should look more like the Accucraft 'Poncha', but with the NCNG tender on Grass Valley.

Hope this helps, 
David.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

1878 - 1952 - Olive green is the basic colour used by Baldwin. Many other colours used in those years, but the stock basic colour is Olive Green. Really? Olive was used up until 1952? Didn't know that.


David has far more extensive and complete knowledge of this material than I have. In fact, what little I know about it I learned from him, and if in doubt, I still ask him.


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh yes, Olive Green was Baldwin's colour for most of the 20th century till they went bust after reorganising. Many loco specs from the 1920s and 30s including exports continued to use this colour extensively - even in the late 1920s we see a rebirth of the Planished Iron boiler jackets, but this time in the form of polished copper steel alloys, rather than oxidized iron. 

Interesting stuff. 

David.


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## Jim Schulz (Aug 10, 2009)

What a gold mine of info. Thanks Dwight and David! Maybe my mind is wanting to see it, but in the original photo I posted above, I can faintly make out scrollwork on the steam and sand domes. The number plate seems different than later photos of this locomotive as well. Most photos I have are of the locomotive with a round roof metal cab and the no. 278 on the sand dome and number plate as well as the tender. Best I can tell, a metal cab with round roof was put on sometime before the 1900 then there was a major overhaul at another time, a photo of which is here. This most certainly was taken before 1908. Those boiler bands pop out in all their brass splendor (against a black boiler jacket?).


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd say both photos are well after the original paint style- something by the road's own shops down the track. Probably plain black with either basic silver lettering or yellow lettering. 

I'll have a look through my books to see if there are any early photos of this engine, not sure. Otherwise, get hold of the spec sheet. If on the other hand what you're really after is the style as shown in these photos, then the spec sheet wont be of valiue. Go the black route like your elec version! 

Thanks mate, 
David.


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, had a look. Loco #278 wasn't built for the N&NW, but was purchased 2nd hand in 1880 or 1881. May well have been repainted on arrival from the original style and colour. The spec sheet would be interesting, but would probably note the original RR name on the tender side for the Des Moines & Minneapolis. 

Best look through the local news paper articles of the time the loco was purchased and see if any comments were made about the engine's colour. 

David.


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## Jim Schulz (Aug 10, 2009)

I will get the specification sheet. However, David I think you are correct that in the first photo the locomotive had been painted black by then. Not only was it built for the Des Moines and Minneapolis, but it was then a Galena and Southern Wisconsin locomotive before the line was consolidated into the C&NW. This all took place within a year or two, but I think the number on the side of the tender is the giveaway for the black repaint, which makes my repaint job easier. More on why the Accucraft Legend 4-4-0 in addition to my sparkie here. 

I posted a topic about Baldwin "Bottle Green" a month ago which had some good info: click here.


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## Jim Schulz (Aug 10, 2009)

Here's a photo of a mogul built for the Chicago and Tomah in 1879 with the name "S. J. Foster" still on it from its original paint scheme. The Chicago and Tomah was consolidated into the C&NW line where the 4-4-0 no.278 also ran. This mogul was the first locomotive on the line:












Here's the same locomotive after a re-paint. The point here is after a re-paint for the C&NW the locomotives were probably black:


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

What would bould worth doing is contacting the C&NW historical society or which ever historical body there is for that road today, including if there is a Wisconsin museum which keeps historical data. In many cases where a main line route also owns a narrow gauge branch, the paint jobs used on the narrow are usually the same as used on the standard gauge. Case in point is the extensive narrow gauge lines that the Union Pacific took over in the 1880s, in Colorado and Utah. Today we can use the UP's standard 1880s and 1890s paint specifications as the basis for their NG lines (which was essentially gloss black locos, Mineral brown running board tops, roof top, top of tender, and yellow lettering for frieght engines, gold lettering for Pass. locos). The big numbers on the tenders, similar to the C&NW using 'RR font', was a stencil used on both SG and NG locos, which in the UPs case often meant very large letters on very small locos! 

However, repaints in the early 1880s aren't always black. The SPC #3 model we did for Acc in dark olive green (thats your bottle green), was based on an early 1880s repaint of the original SPC #3. SPC #3 was originally Lake style 1 (same as Grass Valley), but by the late 1870s, the SPC 4-4-0s we coming new from Baldwin in dark green. It is believed the SPC repainted their older engines in dark green to match, but with much simpler lettering and lining. By the 1890s, this same style was probably black with silver letters. 

In the C&NW, see if the Historical society have anything on paint specs for locos from the road's own shops from the 1880s. I agree, these engines were probably black with either yellow or silver lettering...very much like the UP standards. 

David.


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## Jim Schulz (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks to the good folks at the California State RR Museum, I was able to determine that the no. 279 mogul above was painted in "Olive green color" style 58. The boiler jacket was "American Iron" (what's the difference from "Russia Iron"?). There's a problem though: 

1) The CA State RR Museum records have the builders number assigned to the mogul which my source - "The Dinky - C&NW Narrow Gauge in Wisconsin" - said is for the 4-4-0. 

2) Cynthia at the DeGolyer Library says that the builders number for the 4-4-0 that I gave her indicates that it was built as the "2nd #278 4-4-0 n.g. 11x16-36. Orig. Chicago & Tomah #2." "The Dinky" says it was built for the Des Moines and Minneapolis, then was a Galena and Southern Wisconsin locomotive before the line was consolidated into the C&NW. 

Well, this is all interesting, but I plan to use basic black and modify the Legend so it looks like this:


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The boiler jacket was "American Iron" (what's the difference from "Russia Iron"?). 
The specific ores used. Both were plannished irons, meaning they were sheets of iron treated with a heat process to resist rust. From what I understand, "Russia" iron (or "Russian" iron) was specifically made from iron ores mined in the Ural Mountains in Russia. "American" iron used ores mined in the US. The Russian iron was prized for its highly reflective finish, something the american and other plannished irons couldn't--for whatever reason--match. 

Later, 

K


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim

If you're interested you are welcome to download a copy of the following files, which contain information that I've collected over time on 'Russia Iron'

Planished Iron Patents[/b]

Practicle Metal-Workers Assistant[/b]

Research on Russia Iron[/b]


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## Jim Schulz (Aug 10, 2009)

SteveC, interesting read. What I found particularly interesting is the comment made in the "Practical Metal-Works Assistant" from 1878 that Russian Iron was "remarkable for its smooth glossy surface, which is dark metallic gray, and not bluish gray, like that of common sheet iron." That's a description from the eyes of someone who saw it back in "the day."


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is another good page on Planished Iron:
http://www.pacificng.com/template.p.../index.htm

Put together by Craig Hoefer and Andrew Brandon on their Pacific NG site.

The good aspect here is the photos of actual Russia Iron taken in daylight (these from V&T locos - note the Russian stamps in the metal), a period model and some shots of a Turn of the Century Planished Iron pump engine that I took.
Gives you an idea of the colour - essentially grey. All of them close up tend to be more a matt finish, but per typical in service condition, Craig lubed up the sheets with oil, which brings out the colour and shine.

Style 58 is a fairly simple lined style, very similar to the classic freight loco styles, 50 and 51. Essentially the same as this loco link below (which is style 50)
But with minial decoration on the wheels instead of Style 50's heavily decorated wheels. Also instead of the lil decoration on the cylinder side, the side was simply lined with a box of white a gold linework.
Overall look is not far from this one:
http://www.accucraft.com/index.php?show_aux_page=44

Same tender, cab and dome decoration.

I suspect when you delve into the 4-4-0, it will not be the same style as the mogul, but was probably the same colour in Olive Green. Your version however is 1 or 2 owners removed from the original delivery, so I'd go with what you plan for the Legend.

Sorry I've been off-line for the last two weeks in China, so haven't been able to get back to you.
The hand rail stanchions on my elec versions of the 1:24 4-4-0 and 2-6-0 from Accucraft are indeed bolted in with a nut on the inside of the jacket. Unbolting it may cause the nut to faill into the lagging...but I dont know how the live steam version was done. Maybe ask Charles. They are a really nicely proportioned engine, a little tall on the boiler, but most other areas nicely setout.

David.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim

Like I said in the word document, there's really no settled idea that I can find. For example the following extract, note the very last paragraph.







And before everyone goes nuts, I know that the article is about imitation Russia Iron and not "the" actual item, however, if the stated chemical analysis was correct, it could go a long way in explaining the ongoing blue coloring controversy.

Journal of the Franklin Institute
Third Series – Vol. XLIII – January, 1862 – No. 1
Whole No. Vol. LXXIII No. 434
Proceedings of the Stated Monthly Meeting, December 19, 1861
A paper read by, Prof. Fleury – Imitation of Russia Iron
Pages 68-69

Page 68
Mr. Fleury also read the following paper on Imitation of Russia Sheet Iron:

The samples of iron, which I now have the pleasure of presenting to the Institute, were made under the patent of Mr. Wm. Riesz from ordinary rolled iron, the original cost of which was 5 cents per pound; the expense of the process was 2-1/2 cents, making the total cost of the iron in its present condition, 7-1/2 cents per pound.

The inventor, who was for a number of years director of a large iron manufacturing establishment in Germany, had made it his particular study to examine theoretically and practically the manufacture of the iron which was imported in large quantities from Russia. By repeated analyses of the iron, and also through noticing its beautiful, smooth, and incorrodible surface (by scraping off the surface from a large number of sheets), he came to the curious conclusion that the Russia iron was not, as he had thought, and as the general impression among iron manufacturers still seems to be, covered by _a film of carburet of iron, _but that the smooth surface consisted of _an atomic accumulation of a peculiar substance, a _Nitride _of iron combined with about _20 _per cent, of carbon: _the nitro-carburetted iron of Fremy-* The quantity of carbon and nitrogen diminished gradually towards the centre, where the iron was nearly pure and very flexible. After years of experiments, he has finally succeeded in producing from ordinary sheet iron the best imitation of Russia sheet iron which, in my opinion, can be made.

*See London Chemical News, "On the Composition of Coat Iron and Steel," bv M.E. Fremy, pp. 320, 331, 345, 361, 375. See also last number Journal of the Franklin Institute.

Page 69
Before explaining the process and the interesting changes that take place, I will mention a few of the most important applications for this iron. The most extensive use of Russia iron is in the manufacture of stoves and stove pipes, where the black modification is preferred. The blue Russia iron we find applied in coverings of locomotive boilers, and other parts of steam machinery. The Massachusetts button manufacturers use black Russia iron for the bases of buttons, safe ornaments, door and other locks.

Large plates can be rolled together and welded to any size, then tempered and converted into steel. It is my opinion that such a plate of 2£ inches in thickness, would offer an equal resistance to the armor plates of the _“Black Warrior," _and I would suggest the use of such plates for the covering of our war vessels. Steel plates could be used for railroad springs, breastplates for soldiers, and for various other purposes. The inventor says, that he can make this sheet iron into sword and knife steel. Corrugated sheet iron of this kind is most admirably adapted for the construction of railroad cars, army wagons, transportable rails, and army-boat skeletons, to be carried in pieces, and covered with rubber cloth when used, in a similar manner to lifeboats; it may also be used for transportable houses, suitable for our •western settlers and others similarly situated.

Though the process is very simple, it requires considerable skill, but once learned by short practice under the guidance of the inventor, it can be carried on in the most regular manner. The iron is cleaned in a sulphuric acid bath, then washed with an alkali and water, and placed in a peculiar mixture described in the patent, which prevents oxidation; it is then rolled with the before-named coating, and, after being re-heated, placed under the hammer to receive the required temper and smoothness. 
When the black variety is heated, it becomes dark blue, while the white acquires a beautiful sky blue color. We thus see, that from one and the same iron, four beautifully colored varieties can be obtained.


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## Jim Schulz (Aug 10, 2009)

I love it! The door is open for modeling creative license.


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Posted By Jim Schulz on 22 Apr 2010 09:14 PM 








Look between headlight and bell - Does that thing have a hinged cover for headlight lens?


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## Jim Schulz (Aug 10, 2009)

Yes, here it is closed - the day after surviving the 1908 Green River flood:


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Here's a question: 
How much of the apparent blue hue was accountable to sky reflection as on these locos which are demonstrably painted black. 

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=300141&nseq=19 
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=94778&nseq=109 
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=201682&nseq=255


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

How much of the apparent blue hue was accountable to sky reflection as on these locos which are demonstrably painted black. 
A great deal of it, which is where the myth comes from. 

Here's an example on the model: 









What's painted "gunmetal" (Testor's "Model Master" buffable paint) and is a nice grey in neutral light shows up as: 










Outside where it can reflect the sky. 

Later, 

K


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