# Aristo-Craft Mallet turn out track switch



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

This is difficult to explain. My Aristo-Craft Mallet needs wide curves, wide curve turn out track switches are much much more expensive. Could I get away with the tight bend standard turnout track switch if it is the only piece of tight bend in the track and I make the mallet go as slow as possible over it? Could I get away with a tight bend short rail in the opposite direction immediately after the turn out track switch?
The idea is to have a deadend piece of track parallel to the main track, as near it as possible, that joins the main track with the switch.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Short answer... NO. For exactly the reason you stated in the first sentence... the locomotive needs wide curves. Even a kink in a track joint the produces a sharp radius for an inch is enough to cause problems. 

Your switches need to be at least the same minimum radius as specified for regular track.

Unfortunately, that is the way it is. In the long run you will be glad you invested in larger switches anyway. Look at it as a long term investment.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thanks, I was afraid that would be the right answer. "Never good to cut corners".


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Big engines= big curves
For the reverse curve we suggest a straight track between the curves as long as your longest car/loco... Besides tracking, it also helps the couplers on the ends stay over the track.
John


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3

When I built my layout, I used AristoCraft wide radius (10' diameter, 5' radius) throughout. This was switches and curves. After a few years, I switched out all of my 10' d switches for LGB 18000 series (about 15' d). My mallet and other longer engines and cars all run more smoothly.

We are assuming you are referring to LGB R1 switches (tight bend standard switches) and AristoCraft wide radius. If not please clarify.


Chuck


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Yes, I don't know the right terminology yet but yes that is what I mean. 

So, if I understand correctly, with long locomotives, it is impossible to have two parallel tracks that run very close to each other merge without a big loop before they merge.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's not impossible but it just takes more track. I have #6 Aristo switches with a "parallel adaptor" track. You can also use their "wide radius" switches which as Chuck stated are pretty much 5' radius. You use the term "tight bend" which are really a clone of the LGB R1 turnout, which are just no way.

By the way, the Mallet is actually more forgiving than the Mikado, which the drivetrains are based on. 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

T3, how long is your proposed siding to be?
Dual tracks probably should not be closer than about 6 1/2" , center lined..
What you want can be done..just not in 2 ft.
What track do you use?
What is the largest numbered switch you can buy that matches your track?
Look into a #6..or larger..

Dirk


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3

Sectional (premade ties and rails) by LGB and AristoCraft have the stock number and manufacturer molded into the back of at least one tie in each section. I'm not sure about other manufacturers, as all my track is by the two manufacturers mentioned previously.

The more information you can give us the easier it will be for us to provide a correct answer. Guessing, on our part, just slows down the process.

Chuck


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Numbers?


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

I put in Aristo wide radius switches since the Mikado requires a minimum diameter of 8.5 feet. 5' radius is pushing it but I hope they work. If not I'll run live steam at Dirk's place


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No you should be golden with that, I have no issues, although you do want relatively level track especially on the switches.

I would no worry.

Greg


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

*I hope I manage to upload the drawing that explains this.*

It will be an indoor track circling the room high up on a 7 or 8 inch wide shelf.
The main circuit will be with a small engine and 5 or 6 cars that will automatically circle the room once every hour during the day. The four corners of the room will have the large curved rails I have used with the mallet before with no problem as seen on the video I posted with tha mallet.
The mallet will be stationary on the dead end segment to be run on special ocations only.
It bothers me that because of the space needed for the mallet to join the circuit using the No 7 track switches the shelf that it rests on will have to be 3 , 4 or more feet away from the wall. Not at all what I intended.
I have thought of the following alternative. 
Have the mallet and its cars stationary on the shelf next to the wall . Have the closed circuit with the small engine circle the room bypassing the mallet on track away from the wall. (Along the dotted lines on the drawing) this way I could use two LGBR1 track switches that only the small engines would use and keep both tracks close to the wall. 
Please give your opinion.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Be careful of overhang on the outside of the corners, do not place the start of the curves too close to the wall.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The regular train will look better that way too because they will go through two S bends rather than 4 straights and 4 corners all looking the same. Good to have a straight section of track between the corners and switches and also after the switch in the middle of the S bends. Even a short straight section will help going through the points after a curve and excessive twisting of coupler geometry through the S bends. A lot will depend on length of cars and the way couplers are mounted etc. Easing into your curves a little from the straights would help too for smooth trouble free running. It all depends on how much space you can sacrifice on train length in the passing loop and the distance between the track. 

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I do not want the train to be the main attraction in the room. The room will have other predominant decor. That is why for this project I want the track as simple straight , inconspicuous and near the wall as possible. I prefer to sacrifice the use of long cars and big locomotives rather than having the track conspicuously away from the walls. When the train starts moving I want it to be a surprize to everyone in the room, like if it was just sitting on a shelf as static decoration.
In fact with the new information I have just received perhaps the best will be to have two separate tracks, one on top of the other . One for the small hourly train, one for the mallet. Just as long as they are as close to the walls as possible, keeping in mind that the mallet sticks its tail out a lot when it takes a turn and that I don't want the couplers or wheels to wear out too quickly.
I see that without your help this project would be a catastrophe. Thanks.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Try mocking up what you think will work on a corner first on the floor in the corner of a room and enough straight each end for the length of train you intend to use at the speed you wish to run. Test it each way to emulate the opposite corners if the same symmetrically. Best to discover trouble there before committing yourself.

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Another thing to consider is using LGB R3 switches so the S bends are gentler on the coupler geometry (aprox 4ft radius). Also Train-Li Pro Switch R3 if really pressed for space which are 3ft radius aprox. The 'R' classification is different between manufacturers. Train-Li are designated in radius unlike LGB. 
Train-Li R3 are only a little longer than an LGB R1 switch but a much better radius. Reindeer Pass has them.
http://www.reindeerpass.com/proswitches.aspx

Download the trial version of AnyRail which has the different switch products in it so you can do a detailed design with dimensions before purchasing anything to get the smoothest line for the space available. There is only so much you can do and see in pencil.
https://www.anyrail.com/index_en.html

Both products mentioned will have wider Euro tie spacing but you won't see them anyway from down below.

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I will now download AnyRail , study the program and try to come up with some solutions using the program that I will then post for your further analysis. This will probably take me a number of days. I hope that you will not forget this thread but will remember to check in occasionally to see if I have posted some conclusions. In the meantime more advice is welcome. Trying everything on the floor before building is the best way I agree. Thanks for everything.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I had to reinstall the latest version of AnyRail since I upgraded my computer. 
It's a nice program to use once to get the hang of it. I had a fiddle with it today. 

The 1st design below uses the 5ft radius AristoCraft switches so you can run your mallet through both tracks. 
The second design uses sharper radius Train Line R3 switches just for the smaller loco and have slightly longer trains but it will be hard to soften the S bend without making the shelf wider. 
You could use an LGB R3 or the equivalent TrainLine R4 for something in the middle of the two designs. It will be still under the recommended radius for the mallet. 
I can send you the AnyRail files if you give me your email via Private Message.

These might work OK. See what the other guys think. You might have to tweak it but should be a start. 



















Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

In your drawing, in the section between switches the space between tracks is only 6 inches? If so this might indeed work for me. I might get away with a shelf 14 inches wide in that area. Correct?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

It is a little more than 6 inches between tracks. It is only 6 inches from the wall on the plan to keep it simple at this stage. You need to test overhang when swinging around corners etc. and leaving some extra. It depends on your loco and cars. These distances will need tweaking once you test things out. 
I would guess a little more than 14 inches. You might need a slightly raised edge in case of derailments 

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I've downloaded Any Rail and am beginning to play with it. My track is mostly second hand, a little is new, all brass, if I remember correctly from LGB, Bachmann and Aristo-Craft, however for this new project I might buy new brass longest possible straight rails to have less joints combined with second hand curved rails. 
Since brass track is just a bit flexible l might have the track a bit further away in the corners and an inch or so closer to the wall on straight laps, matter of live testing of course.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Another possible solution. The links I´ve used are the small ones, that is wrong, but you get the general idea.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

It doesn't appear to be in scale though. What is the grid size?

Settings->Measurement System->English Fractional Units Inches. (or Decimal Units Inches).
Settings->Grid Size->6. (or however many inches you want the grid to be).
Set the Width and Depth to your room size in inches.

You could work in metric too but it seems your room is divided into 6 inch grids but it is set differently in the software. The track looks too big and not to scale for the area. I think you have a 10cm grid set and small R1 switches which will not work with your mallet.

That idea could be a good option to keep trains long but you will have to make sure you use the AristoCraft 18" long switches if your mallet is going off the 60" diverging track and use 60" radius curves (or perhaps a little less if need be) in the main corners. 

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Yes 10cm grid, yes the switches are too small , I must get more practice with the program to use it properly, I had a hard time trying to get the track to make a 45% angle with the larger switches so I did it with the small ones. I have not received the files yet. If I don't get them tomorrow I will give you another email. Thanks again.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

You usually have to use flex track in certain places to get the best results. Settings->Flex->Minimum Radius and set Alert Too Sharp Radius. The track will go red where it is too sharp. The flex track has bezier curve control points they are a bit hard to see though. Try keeping them a third the way in.

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Something so seemingly simple and yet so difficult to grasp in reality! I'm favoring the option on my last drawing, with parallel track on the left short side of the room. 
Please correct me if I am wrong again. G Brass Track from Aristo-Craft LGB or Bachmann. 
I will need 2 5 ft radius 22.5° switches , one left one right. 
To make the 2 90° 5 ft radius corners on the outer track I will need 4 22.5° curved rails on each corner connected to the straight part of each switch. 
To complete the 2 90° 5 ft radius corners of the inner track I will need for each corner 3 22.5° curved rails (since the first 22.5° of the 90° corner is formed by the switch itself. ) 
I will need 8 22.5° curved rails of the same dimensions to make the two opposite 45° 5 ft radius corners of the room. 
I will need sections of straight track in as long as possible rails to reduce connectivity problems.
I will try to fit this in the AnyRail program to see how much straight track and what length rails I need to complete the loop.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

*I don´t like it*

It takes to much of the room. If I can´t do it with smaller radius curves I will have to have the mallet up near the roof on it´s own track, track on Aristo Craft type Transit System grid so one can see thru it. Have the regular track lower down with small radius curves.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Aristo made a compensating section of 10'D to go with the switch to make one section of 10'D curved track.
I think you'll like the Mallet high and the smaller one close by.
John


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I don't understand your grid spacing and room size in the image you have. Your first sketch is a 9x7 yard room size. 
Below has inner track using AristoCraft 5' (60") radius switch and inner loop curves for the mallet and 48" radius curves outer passing loop for your smaller loco. It uses a short section of flex track about a foot long next to the switch to make it work. (PS John said you can get this section from AristoCraft) You usually have to use some flex track in restrictive circumstances on any layout to get things right. 
The wall distance and track spacing is a refinement to make once you test things so you can minimize the shelf width. The trains overhang on curves might not interfere on the passing loops so you may get away with a minimal track spacing there to keep shelf narrow. 
Did the files come through your email or were they spam blocked again?










Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I definitely don't know how to use AnyTrack , my attempts looks totally wrong, yours looks totally right, I did feel it was strange that such a large room looked like such a small room.I'm so glad your rendering looks promising . Perhaps I should give up on AnyTrack and just use your rendering as a guide. I'm going to study it carefully. I don't understand why I'm not receiving your files. I send files between the two emails without a problem.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

You have the correct track sections but you are still in metric. See the settings I put in previous post and save a file. You can use metric if you wish but then all other work space and grid settings have to be in metric too.

If it looks OK now, set up a test track in the corner of the room and see what things need for clearance.
The 48" radius is a reasonable curve for smaller locomotives. The combination of radius 5' and 4' with that AristoCraft 5' radius switch are a good combination geometrically so you end up with about the right amount of track spacing on the passing loop. It seems so in theory at least. 










Below is a more detailed plan with a grid of 1". You should be able to work out all measurements from this. The wall distance could be adjusted. 
Some details could be out 1/4" for various reasons so lay your track from the switches out and keep a smooth radius.

If you click on the thumbnail down below then click the popup window it will open up a high res file suitable for printing. It should serve as a generic reference plan for those who require a room wall layout with radius 4' and/or 5' and are wondering about distances etc. I left room for sketching your own edges or wall. 
The switch and short curve section can be viewed as a single curve section to omit the 4' radius track and vice versa for a single track curve.










Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Everything is much clearer now, thanks to the incredibly helpful people in this forum and this time very specially to Andrew to whom I feel deeply indebted for his perseverance as a selfless teacher.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

AG, I have your file in AnyRail, I see you used G train line Flex in all straight segments, I like it , does that mean one can buy rails as long as all that? Where can one buy them? Are they expensive. Is one meant to cut them to size?
I have deleted a Q. Posted here to post it in the Indoor Railways section.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Don't worry about what is being used in the program except for the switches. I use standard curve sections because they have an exact radius and flex track because I can stretch it as far as I want. In reality you would use whatever.
For the short curve section next to the switch to make it similar to a 60" radius curve section I use a short length of flex in the program. John said that AristoCraft make that section but it is not in the program. In reality you could use that or cut a standard 60" curve section to fit or a short left over piece of flex track. Again what ever works.
I think the AristoCraft switch is not exactly the same as a 60" radius curve but close. 
AristoCraft's track is marked on the box in rounded off inches but in reality some of their track is the close to, but not the same metric size so it is compatible with LGB. ie: 1ft=304.8mm not 300mm. Also from what I remember AnyRail's AristoCraft track is the exact inch size as stated on the box therefore not exactly the same as the real thing. There are also inconsistencies in manufacturing leading to slightly different lengths, radius etc. so you have to lay it all out to really know what is going on. Don't trust the plan exactly as things will be out slightly.
It is safer to have a slight raised edge, only needs to be as high as a tie to contain the wheels. Depends on how close the edge is etc. Others may have more experience regarding this issue. I wouldn't like a mallet on my head. 

You could also make the rear track go up a grade and optionally the front track down a grade for the passing loops. Maybe only 2% grade so things don't wear too much. Then the rear track would be a few inches higher and more visible . 

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

There are tubes of 20 new LGB 5 ft long rails for flex for sale. To make 50 feet of track. I imagine one could make the plastic ties in wood and secure the wood ties to the rails with small wood screws. In my case one could make the screws go right thru to the shelf or alternatively screw the rails to the shelf without ties. . Since it is for indoors use the wood and screws would hold. Would this way of securing the rails be as safe as the original plastic ties? Is there a better way? How much per ft can one pay for this new? Is it possible to buy flex track in even longer segments?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Probably best to use plastic ties. Screwing in thousands of screws up there will be awkward and time consuming. That is about 48 screws per foot on narrow gauge tie spacing, more on standard gauge spacing. 
Fixing rails straight to the shelf? Everything moves and your track needs to be perfectly aligned and maintainable. 

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I was thinking on fixing the screws with the shelves on the floor before installing them but I'm glad that is your opinion because that track has been sold.
Is it possible to buy track in very long segments?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Accucraft have a good deal on flex track in boxes on eBay etc. They make various types, brass, stainless steel etc. and different tie spacing. Code 332 (LGB and AristoCraft) and the smaller code 250. Their USA 3ft narrow gauge track has fatter and longer ties than LGB etc. being more to the scale of 1:20.3. Their brass track has less copper in the brass alloy which makes it less expensive but more brittle. Only some people who use it to make switch parts have a problem with it but for general use it seems fine. The stainless is harder to bend etc. requires less cleaning but more expensive than brass in general. I think it is sold under AML, AMS etc. Available up to 5ft lengths depends on which type. You might need a rail bender for the short stiffer rail lengths. You haven't got that many curves, only 1.5 circles minus the switches. Maybe save the expense of a rail bender and just buy set track for the curves. 
If anything goes out of whack it will be a hassle to realign the rails when screwing the rails directly to the shelf and the rails can't easily move with temperature changes possibly causing something to buckle. 

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I'm a bit confused with the switches. Is the Aristocraft US 30300 switch on the AnyRail file you sent me equivalent to an LGB R3 22.5 degree turnout?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking at pictures of the 30300 AristoCraft switch it looks more like a LGB R1 (4' diameter) not an R3 (8' diameter). R1 is 30 degrees, and R3 is 22.5 degrees. If you want a switch for your mallet, you need more than R3. My recommendation is an LGB 18000 series switch or greater. The 18000 is R5 and has a turnout diameter of 15'.

Chuck


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

On the plan it is an AristoCraft 30380 which is aprox 5ft radius. The LGB R3 is aprox 4ft radius. Several people early on in this topic suggested using a 5ft radius for the mallet (even though it is recommended 4ft radius minimum), so that's what I put in the plan. It's best to use the widest radius you can. 

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Although the LGB 18000 or greater that Chuck recommends would surely be best , it is not adequate for the space and setup that I am planning because it would need to much room. The Aristo-Craft 30380 seems the best compromise between safety and the square angular design I am after. But will I be able to find two of these motorized? I have looked in vain thru internet for these and their equivalent in other brands.
Where can I find 2 motorized 5ft radius switches?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

As long as the Mallet goes straight through the switch, there shouldn't be a problem. It is the divergent track that worries me.

Chuck


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

TTT, As with many things there is a possible sweet spot between the ideal and the impractical. Even in a reasonably large room like you have, very wide radius will encroach from the corners 4ft or more and leave only a short straight along the walls. Your mallet will be a lot happier to have a radius one more than what is minimum recommendation. 5ft radius IS the sweet spot but that radius switch is not made by LGB unfortunately.
You only need 2 switches. It is not a tall order. Motorizing them is relatively easy. Find a pair on eBay with patience.
There are other more obscure custom track makers that will possibly have a similar radius. I don't think TrainLine or Accucraft make a 5ft radius switch.

A true railroad switch is not usually a replacement for a curve section, the diverging track is straight through the frog. A set track switch is a curve so the pieces all go together. A true switch is refereed to as a frog number #3, #4, #6, #8 etc. which is the ratio of the frog degree. Think of the frog number as a triangle with a center line length to width ratio. A switch with the radius of 5ft (60") I think is has a frog close to a #4 or perhaps #5 which does not seem common. The diverging track will be a straight not a curve so when looking for a switch from custom makers it may not be expressed as a radius, it will be a frog number instead. You will have to modify the plan slightly to reflect this type of switch and the different geometry. Sourcing second hand AristoCraft ones seeing they are both on a curve may be the best option.
You could ask in different thread who makes the equivalent to a 5ft radius (10ft diameter) switch. It is a subject all on it's own.

Some brands that come to mind, Switchcrafters, Accucraft, Sunset Valley. There are others that elude me at the moment. 

This is Scot Polk's website who is now representing what was AristoCraft. He ideally should have them but none in stock.
http://polksgenerationext.com/

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck, the divergent track is the intended path of the mallet. Things are a little tight for space up on the wall.

Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Nuff said.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Piko R7 switch is a 5ft radius switch (1560mm). They seem to be the only manufacturer now that is making such a useful switch radius. Piko's R numbers are different again to LGB and TrainLine. TrainLine is the only numbering system that makes any sense being the approximate radius in feet.

http://www.piko-america.com/99350_G-Track_Brochure_2013.pdf

http://www.reindeerpass.com/piko-r7-left-hand-switch.aspx










Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I hope this is part of what I will need because assuming it was I just bought it on ebay for $19. ARISTO-CRAFT #11299 REMOTE SWITCH MACHINE IN ITS ORIGINAL SEALED POLY BAG. I did not find info about it in the catalog or on the web.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I guess everybody is very kindly preoccupied with the sought of my precious mallet falling from a 12 feet 6 inches height. After receiving so much very appreciated advice on the subject I feel I have the theoretical knowledge to build the track on the room floor and safely test it to prevent the dreaded fall.

My large curved rails form a 10 ft. diameter circle which I've made into an oval by adding two 4 ft. straight rails, on this I have tested the mallet extensively. This is the track I used on my little youtube video. Only derailments have been from track that has come apart because of loose ties. This will not happen up there where everything will be securely fastened. I can easily program the RR Concepts StationMaster to make the Mallet go very slowly over the switches. 
The above plus all information in this thread and the safety precautions given in my thread Risk of derailment in the Indoor Railways section, I think is sufficient to decide on the 5ft.radius switches as most suitable to my plan. Fortunately they are available from several vendors as Andrew has kindly pointed out.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I am going to attempt yet another possible solution, first testing it on AnyRail, using three tracks (four switches ) on the short side. The idea being to run 3 trains alternatively. Two of them remaining stationary on their respective two parking short segments while the third train goes around the single long lane around the room.
Since I was planning on using this with a RRConcepts stationmaster to make it automatic. How would I prevent all three trains (or the 2 trains using 2 tracks as initially intended) from running simultaneously without any form of remote control? I would need to make the Stationmaster or the switches cut the power automatically to a segment of track beteen switches to make the train stop when it has returned to its stationary position. If all trains run simultaneously it would be a catastrophe.They would all crash against each other coming into the single track. Perhaps this is really a question for RR Concepts, I will send them an email.The answer could be in a slight modification of the RR Concepts plan attached, I particularly like stopping option 3.
PS I hope you can rotate the attached file, I could not on my Galaxy tab.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I found this in RR Concepts page . This is clearly what I was looking for.


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