# do Aster locomotives still hold in value overtime?



## applegeekz (Nov 27, 2012)

Hello,

I am very new to this hobby and still in the learning curve. As I dig more into the steam, I realized there are actually plenty of manufacturers out there produce live steam locomotives. And of course we all know Aster, and majority of us love Aster. I am just curious do Aster locomotives still hold in value overtime considering the competition we have today. Few years ago, I was told that if past experience is to be a guide for future then all Asters will hold in value overtime, perhaps may be well increase in value. Is this statement still hold true. If I were to buy a new Aster today will it gain in value? Of course, it is a very vague question because it is all depending on the level of run time and who build it. And not all Aster model get the same treat. But let just say that I run my locomotive occasionally and taking good care of it. And if it was a kit, it would be built by a highly regarded professional modeler. 

If I am looking for a Aster Challenger, how much should I expect to pay? 



Thanks

Nate


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Nate. This is a tough question and the answers are not uniform. Some Asters have held their values well while others -- not so much. I think a lot has to do with the scarcity and desirability of the model. For instance, the Berkshire kits are still selling for around $7k which is about what they sold for new. Recently, a JNR C62-2 sold on eBay for over $8k which is a bit more than the new kit in the US. Older models like the Daylight have held value well while mikado prices can vary wildly. So my advice to you is to not make a purchase decision based on potential future value because it may not be there. Instead base your purchase on what you really like and want to run. And yes, the reputation and skill of the builder can add value, but the amount of run time and condition can take it away too.

Now, as to the Challengers. This model sold out quickly recently and there is little likelihood that you will be able to find one except for an isolated resale if you are extremely lucky. For this reason, you might have to pay more than the original kit price if you are fortunate enough to find one. Also, if you are just starting out, you would be better advised to look for a less complex Aster to start off with. Articulated are about as complicated as they get -- heavy and expensive too. Mikados and the Pennsy K4 for instance are more plentiful and much easier on your pocketbook. If foreign prototypes are of interest, there is a wide range to choose from and they occasionally pop up for sale here in the US. Some of the British ones but not all are of simpler design and those will usually be priced more attractively.

Good luck with your search,

Ross Schlabach


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Nate,

Generally whether Aster or not---there are a lot of factors that go into a value evaluation but it largely comes down to what someone is willing to pay at a given time. The usuals, as you alluded, usually come into play: condition, rarity of the model, kit or factory build, desirability of the model against an actual pool of buyers at a given time. 

That last factor makes any valuation interesting and highly variable. Based on that I'm not sure you should make purchasing decisions on perceived value of a model or anticipated value of model down the road. A model like the Challenger was done on actual orders so its population is small compared to other models. It is today a rare and sought after model that would likely recover or even exceed the original purchase price based on the factors we discussed. However, as it ages and isn't a hot new model and for whatever reason the pool of buyers goes down significantly, then you might find yourself not getting what you think it is worth when you are ready to sell. Of course, an upsurge in the live steam hobby can result in the price going up a great deal.

If you want something guaranteed, maybe US Treasuries but otherwise its a bit of crap shoot.....My advice,buy what you like and enjoy it and don't worry too much about value..

Sam


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

I totally agree, Aster locomotives should only be purchased as an investment in fun and entertainment. On a different note, any air/oil cooled Porsche 356/911 have seen obscene increases in value in the last couple of years!!


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

A lot depends on the economy at the time of purchase. When people have more expendable cash on hand, the more they are willing to pay for their "Toys". And like anything else considered "Collectable", it's condition, condition, condition of the item at the time of sale. All I know about are the U.S. prototype Aster engines. Of those there are only a couple of models that you could sell in this present economy and make a substantial profit on, and that would only be if you bought it at it's introduction price.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Steve

Substantial profit? If you take into account the amount of inflation of the US dollar, I do not think the K4, NYC Hudson, Daylight, or Big Boy are actually bringing a big profit to the seller. If you IGNORE inflation, it appears that the seller might be making as much as 50%, possibly more. If you sell a Berkshire for what you paid new, you have actually lost a few hundred dollars.

My personal observation is that the Gauge One models that increase in value are the ones that were done in batches of 10 or less, not ones that were produced in quantities over 50. Even Fine Art Models locomotives and cars seldom realize much over their original prices, Gary Kohs' desires not withstanding.

It is the market, not the model.

Just my opinion.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Dr Rivet said:


> Steve
> 
> Substantial profit? If you take into account the amount of inflation of the US dollar, I do not think the K4, NYC Hudson, Daylight, or Big Boy are actually bringing a big profit to the seller. If you IGNORE inflation, it appears that the seller might be making as much as 50%, possibly more. If you sell a Berkshire for what you paid new, you have actually lost a few hundred dollars.
> 
> ...





Good added points Dr. Rivet. I agree.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Then there is this one...










Aster built something like 2550 of these, and they originally went for something well under $1000, back in 1975. Nowdays they regularly bring in the high teens, close to, or slightly over $2000. They are very simple, most without even a pressure gauge, but they just might be the best runner Aster ever produced.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Tom brings up a perfect example above. 

The Southern Schools class 4-4-0 was one of the first two locomotives produced by Aster in 1975. The original price was about $750 US. The production run was huge and it took Aster a long time to sell off the inventory. 

In 1979 they produced the Southern King Arthur class 4-6-0 but limited the production to only 300 pieces. It was still a moderately priced locomotive.

Today a Schools in good condition typically fetches $1800-$2100 while the Arthur, being much less common [about 1 to 8 or 9] will bring $2900-$3500.

If you account for inflation over 35 to 40 years, the market price is about even for the Schools although 10 years ago they were in the $2200-$2500 range.

Just the market doing its thing.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Nate,
I guess if you mean recovering the original dollar cost of the engine as your definition of value then Tom and Jim's example above might make you feel better....but if you talking about the value of those same dollars over that time horizon they are talking about then maybe not so much...As I alluded to above, value should be probably be thought of in terms of how much enjoyment you derive from those dollars...Clearly, in those terms, our friends above have been rewarded handsomely...


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Twenty years ago it was nothing to double your money on an Aster, but then they were the only ones in the business of making standard gauge live steam near scale models, and there might be two new models a year. Times have changed and the market is now flooded with new models from other manufacturers and Aster put out N American models more often than in the '80s. On top of that, all the old farts like us who bought these models back then are on fixed pesions or worse, falling off our perches, so the market is now being flooded with used engines. Your live steamer is now becomming more like the car in your driveway, so enjoy it for what it is rather than eyeing the $ signs......if that's your reason for being in garden railway live steam then get out now before you get your fingers burned, but if getting them burnt on a hot regulator is OK with you then welcome to the fold old son!
David M-K
Ottawa


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## dougiel (Jun 3, 2008)

The picture below is ( I hope ! ) of the first run of an Aster LNER Flying Scotsman. This took part last Tuesday the 13th of May 2014. This model was first on sale in 2002, twelve years ago for £4350. I was lucky enough to purchase this unfired model from a fellow G1 member for £4000.

I also purchased a new still in its tissue paper in its box BR 9f 2-10-0 for £4500. This was some £750 over its original 2007 price.

Money wise some you win, some you loose. Enjoyement wise its a win win situation. Seeing The Scotsman pull away on that first run at a very smooth twenty miles an hour or so was all the satisfaction I wanted. 

DougieL


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a unbuilt Berkshire kit and its still valued at the same price as new. 

We mostly buy as a hobby and buy what we like and will run. I would not buy something and expect in 10 years that I will make money on it. If you have just a 10-20% less resale from new you are doing well when you do sell something. Sometimes you may break even too. All depends on the size of the run and how desirable the item is.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Jay,

Is it really? Again, when you have a real buyer that actually puts money in your hand. then you can say that....I've seen several Berks that were in perfect condition that did not return what was paid by the seller.

In general, however, your 10-20% depreciation may be a good guideline for Nate and others but again the current market and how your expose your item to market will validate that or not....

Sam


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Here is some Aster's going up for Auction,You can see for Your self what the Market is Today.Check it out
Hello!


I'd like to personally invite you to The Glenn Reid Museum Collection "Preview Gala," on May 16. This museum is truly the American Dream on Display! For those of you who have never visited, the contents consist of more than 3000 hand-made, working models that represent the history of the Industrial Revolution.


Visit our website at www.reidff.org to learn more about the museum collection, The Reid Family Foundation, and all the upcoming events.


This entire collection will be sold to preserve the future of The Reid Family Foundation. To see the sale catalog and a video of the collection, visit www.ha.com/5181.


Some of you have already received an invitation in the mail or by email to the "Preview Gala." In case you did not, I have attached one to this email. Please RSVP. Details included on the invitation. 



I would like to encourage you to attend this special evening at our museum. This will be one of the very last days you will have a chance to see the collection all together before it is auctioned on May 28. We will have model demonstrations, a lecture by Nick Dawes, strolling appetizers and cocktails. 


Even if you are not interested in bidding on anything in the auction, you are still welcome to enjoy the collection by attending the "Preview Gala." Just make sure you RSVP.


Or, you can attend our "Appraisal Event" on May 15-17. Heritage Auction specialists will give free, verbal appraisals and identification of up to 2 of your treasures. This is a free, public event. Times and additional information can be found on our website at www.reidff.org. 


Remember, all proceeds from the sale will benefit The Reid Family Foundation which is dedicated to local youth development.


Please consider spreading the word about our events and auction. The future of our foundation and my dad's legacy is dependent on the success of the sale of his collection.



With Great Appreciation,
-- 

Sheri Reid Grant
Executive Director
Reid Family Foundation
(248)766-3738 cell


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

Over fifty years ago I had a friend and mentor who custom-built O-scale models. All too frequently a prospective client would, upon being quoted a substantial sum for a T&P Texas or a streamlined NYC J-3 which wasn't available in Japanese brass, nervously ask what he could get for it used. Jack's answer was that, if you want an investment, go see a broker or realtor. If you want a locomotive, I'm your man. This advice is still good.


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Here is the rest of the Live Steam


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## pogsteam (May 23, 2013)

I want to buy the Big Boy in the auction. Estimate is $5-7K. Any guesses on what it will go for? More than $7k I'm sure.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

pogsteam said:


> I want to buy the Big Boy in the auction. Estimate is $5-7K. Any guesses on what it will go for? More than $7k I'm sure.
> 
> You would be extremely lucky if you got it for less than 10k, would be my guess. Pristine,unused I am thinking maybe 15k to 20k.
> 
> I looked at the auction site. Buyer beware, looks like a buyer's premium on these items could be as high s 25% ,if I am reading their agreement correctly.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

What is it worth? Well with money and value being relative things let’s do some figuring. 

Using a couple of the examples given above and adjusting for inflation using the CPI (Consumer Price Index) I used the following calculator verifying the results with another calculator.

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Calculators/Inflation_Rate_Calculator.asp

Southern Schools class 4-4-0 
1975 … $750 
1995 … $2,124
2014 … $3,294

Estimated value today 
2014 … Jim; … $1,800-$2,100
Jim’s loco, you could say, is worth a lot less than what he paid for it. 

Southern King Arthur class 4-6-0. I tried two looks at the Arthur. 
1979 … $1,012 ($750 CPI adj.)
2004 … $2,656
2014 … $3,323

1979 … est. $1,250
2004 … $3,252
2014 … $4,068

Estimated value today;
2004 … Dr Rivet … $2,900-$3,500 “10 years ago”
So if Arthur cost about $1,000 in 1979, Jim’s estimate looks pretty close. If it cost any more, well, not so much. 

If you just look at Jim’s estimate for 2004 to 2014 adjusted for inflation that would be;
Dr Rivet’s 2004 estimate CPI adjusted 
2014 … $3,627 - $4,378 would be what you would have to sell it for today to just get back what you paid for it.

Of course the other way of looking at things is that a dollar is a dollar is a dollar. If you paid $750 for a loco in ’75 and you sell it today for $1,800, Good Grief, that’s nearly 2 ½ time the price you paid for it. WOW! Fairly meaningless but unexamined sounds pretty good.

What can make this, “what’s it worth?” thing somewhat painful… Let’s say you invested that $750 in the S&P 500 Index via and Index Mutual Fund, the total return, with Div. and Int. reinvested, would be worth about $14,903. 

I think the conclusion is;
If you want to have fun buy a train. 
If you want an investment, “ buy land they aren’t making any more,” Will Rogers.
Do not confuse fun and investments; you’ll never get a decent return on either.


All that aside. I, and I think a heck of a lot of us, have gone through the exact, exact same thought process of self doubt. Ok, maybe not Dr Rivet he’s the most confident gentleman I know. ;-)) 

Goes something like… Steam trains look like fun. What I like costs a lot of money. What if it turns out I don’t like steam trains as much as I thought? Can I get my money back (most or maybe more?) if , IF I buy the RIGHT locomotive? Often the subtext is; Can I tell my wife, “it’s an investment? That’s what the guys been in this for all their lives say.” So she won’t divorce me, or worse, for spending what seems like an absurd amount of money for a toy train?

I think most of us have reached similar conclusions; If I don’t buy what I really want I’ll never be happy.
Buy something small to get your feet wet. Then move on to that golden locomotive on a hill.

Why an investment theory of trains doesn't work;
No one has a crystal ballot see the future. If they say they do run like ****.
The past is no guarantor of the future. 
Think of all the people who bought gold at $1600+ an ounce because everyone said it was always go higher. Sound advice.

If you go for fun as an investment you will always have protecting your investment in the back of your mind. You will never really have the joy of unmitigated orgasmic just plain child like fun.

Now the advice passed onto me by a very old and wise sage of the male species. If you want to buy something expensive for yourself, first get your wife to buy herself, or buy her an expensive something. Wait a reasonable amount of time they buy your expensive locomotive. You will be called out as a conniving sob but just say; of course I did it so I could buy my locomotive. We each should special things we really want. We deserve it. 

Last, only buy what you like and makes you happy never what someone else likes.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

GNSteamer said:


> I totally agree, Aster locomotives should only be purchased as an investment in fun and entertainment. On a different note, any air/oil cooled Porsche 356/911 have seen obscene increases in value in the last couple of years!!


Forget Porsches, have you seen what Ferrari 250 GTO's have done? More than doubled in a few years. The last GTO to sell went for over $50 million. Imagine if you'd been the lucky ******* to buy one back in 1966 when it was a tired old racecar no one wanted.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

To answer the original question Q: "do Aster locomotives still hold in value overtime?" 
Better then the other I think?


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

You guys are going at this all wrong. The Schools sold in Vancouver, BC in 1975 for $450 to $500, I have seen sales posters. Now they sell for around $1,500 to $2,000. I think it's great value when you consider that you can sell it for more after playing with it for 39 years.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan Pantages said:


> You guys are going at this all wrong. The Schools sold in Vancouver, BC in 1975 for $450 to $500, I have seen sales posters. Now they sell for around $1,500 to $2,000. I think it's great value when you consider that you can sell it for more after playing with it for 39 years.


I like Dan's line of thought. As to investments: What can make this, “what’s it worth?” thing somewhat painful… Let’s say you invested that $750 in the S&P 500 Index via and Index Mutual Fund, the total return, with Div. and Int. reinvested, would be worth about $14,903. 

Then came the crash of 2008.... most lost about 50% or more of their investments (depending on the portfolio) but we still had our trains!


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

JEFF RUNGE said:


> To answer the original question Q: "do Aster locomotives still hold in value overtime?"
> Better then the other I think?


 

Trouble maker..........he, he


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, but even if you lost 50% of your investment you'd still have 10 times the original investment.

Still... I am glad I have my Aster engines and when I am dead and gone the kids can find out how much they are worth (but I need to buy another one so the 3 kids won't fight over the 2 engines!)


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Semper Vaporo said:


> Yeah, but even if you lost 50% of your investment you'd still have 10 times the original investment.


Yes and no..depends on one's situation. If you were retired at that time with no other income and you are counting on a return of investment to meet the day to day obligations then life just got very uncomfortable (as the base of ones remaining funds slowing disappear over the next few years withdrawals). In desperation one might consider selling the Schools and make 300% on your original investment (that number could make one feel better).


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Guys,
I think some of us tried to make this easy on Nate and many of you. I'm not sure what Nate is going to do after this discussion. Maybe he'll switch to rare German and Italian cars..... Hopefully, he'll focus on the important piece--not the cloudy investment potential but the simple and clear enjoyment of owning a live steam engine.

Perhaps we can all recommend to Nate make an engine selection based on that....everything beyond that is gravy...

Sam


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## applegeekz (Nov 27, 2012)

Hi Sam and All,

Thank you everyone for your response…very much appreciated your advices and opinion. I too agree with most of the comments. Fundamentally speaking, 90% of things that we purchase will depreciate overtime. And Aster locomotives won’t be the exception but majority of them do hold value really well comparing to other toys. 

I recently purchased the RTR 241P, and I know I will never get that money back if I decided to sell it someday. But as of this moment, was it worth the money…sure it was!!! Do I enjoy it..yes I do!!!

I received 3 locomotives this past week. It was **** a lot of unpacking, checking, and cleaning. I’ll try to snap some photo this weekend and share with everyone.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles said:


> I like Dan's line of thought. As to investments: What can make this, “what’s it worth?” thing somewhat painful… Let’s say you invested that $750 in the S&P 500 Index via and Index Mutual Fund, the total return, with Div. and Int. reinvested, would be worth about $14,903.
> 
> Then came the crash of 2008.... most lost about 50% or more of their investments (depending on the portfolio) but we still had our trains!


If you mean we had our trains to provide comfort during the 2008-09 market crash I agree. As well as through 1987 and 2000 market turmoil.

As to the $14,903, I meant if you invested $750 in 1975 and left it untouched, through market ups and downs from 1975 to 2014 $750 would have grown to $14,903. 

Still you are right trains are there for you in good times and bad, through thick and thin.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

*241p*

I was not aware that the 241p came RTR. I thought it was only in kit form.
Beautiful engine.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Art
The 241P was RTR only in the sense that it was built up from kit by Aster Europa


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Nate,
Wow, a 241P--talk about all in! That is one beautifully detailed engine.

Enjoy and post a pic or two when you can!
Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Just registered here, but I have been lurking for quite some time.

I have enjoyed reading this thread thus far and the opinions offered by the sage folks among you are consistent with my own expectations - and limited experience.

I have an Aster Henschel HF110c model; (in other words I own a Frank S,) an Aster Schools and most recently I just finished building a BR(WR) Castle.

If I were to sell the Frank S or the Schools I am fairly certain I'd get what I paid for them. Which means, as has already been discussed, I'd lose money, but not too much. 

The significant intangible is the pleasure we experience during the period of ownership. One may look at the difference between time-adjusted cost at time of purchase and the realized selling price adjusted for time, down the road, as the cost of renting the loco during the period of ownership and in that case, the monthly or annual rental premium may be said to be quite low. 

I look at Ebay daily; (I've seen Applegeekz list items there,) and from what I can determine, any Aster purchased recently will have to be sold at a loss - perhaps a small loss - if one were to sell it shortly after acquiring it.

There was a fellow in Canada who listed several Asters all at once and he was looking to get his purchase price back. I believe he listed for three or more weeks and none of his listings resulted in a sale. Recently, someone offered a factory-built Castle for the price of a kit-built Castle and he or she did not sell it. The Castle listing was flawed and this probably did not help.

On the other hand, a dealer in the Philadelphia area listed a K4 for about $5,500.00 obo and I believe he sold it for over $5K. He had to re-list it three times to sell it. I was, at one time, the high bidder, but I had not met the reserve. Was $5+K a good price for a K-4? Was it a real money-maker?

So far, the only folks who have insisted to me that Asters are good investments are the folks who were trying to sell me one. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe
Welcome..
"down the road, as the cost of renting the loco during the period of ownership and in that case, the monthly or annual rental premium may be said to be quite low. "

That perspective puts all things in good order! None of really own anything just keepers for the next person the items we hold so dear.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Me with too much data, always data.

*12-31-2010 *
MLS Live Steam Forum; 
http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-live-steam/16866-accucraft-h-8-alligheny-live-steam.html



JEFF RUNGE said:


> FWIW the kit price on the Aster H8 was $17,650. and 21,590 factory built, per a "SouthernSteam Trains" price sheet I have. I don't know what people actually paid for them, but I doubt you can buy one for that today. like most Asters they have held their value pretty well when kept is good order.



_*5-16-2014*_
Sunset Valley Railroad
http://www.sunsetvalleyrailroad.com/used.html

Locos for Sale
Aster Allegheny kit. This is a rare and beautiful engine, only 97 made worldwide, and there are only a couple of kits left. It can be built to order if you desire. (PN) $17,900


*The effects of inflation; Twelve years 2002 to 2014;*
2002; $17,650 Kit / $21,590 RTR. 
2014; $23,260 Kit / $28,451 RTR.

*Now what would be the reverse? If the Allegheny costs $17,650 today what would it have cost in 2002? $13,465. It's called the Discounted Cash Value. * 

Calculating Discounted Cash Value;
The CPI for 2002 = 179.9
The CPI for 2014 = 235.8*
Use the following formula to compute the calculation:
2002 Price = 2014 Price x (2002 CPI / 2014 CPI*)
$13,465 = $17,650 * ( 179.9 / 235.8)

* BLS Estimate


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Ok I made the joking Ferrari comment, so I'll try to be a bit more serious. I will say that when it comes to entertainment expenses, trains are a fantastic investment. Many things we spend large amounts of $ on are over in a matter of hours, days, or weeks (although can admittedly provide years of memories), whereas I'm still running trains that I was given 25 years ago. The LGB LG&B Mogul I spent $250 on 15 years ago is still being run on a regular basis, and I see no reason not to expect that to continue for a very long time. $250 being spent on something that provides decades upon decades of entertainment value is not a bad "investment" at all, even if you won't see an actual inflation adjusted return on your $.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

*Austion of fine locos ended*

Just looked at some prices of what those great engines sold for. Big Boy 12,500.00 with bp
Allegehny 11500.00 with bp
Aster Shay 2500.00
Looks like there were some great buys on the site.
Total of all his goodies came to a little ove 900,000.00 dollars

Challenger went for less than 7000.00 ouch


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Best buy was the Garratt for a little more than $5K. Priced at Southern Steam Trains @ $14K


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

My cousin told me he is happy to get a staff discount because he puts $200 over the bar at the local each week.
It makes me feel a lot better about my steamaholic habit because my drain cocks are not always leaking.

Andrew


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Well Charles--you didn't think I'd let that go by, did you? I guess I can get over not buying a Challenger now.....

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Although I was sent a link to the HA site and I set up and account, I forgot about the auction until it was all over, lol.

Here are some prices I noted:

AD60 Garrett $5,468.75
Aster Mike $3,000.00
King George V $3,750.00
A3 Flying Scotsman $4,375.00
U1 $6,875.00
WM Shay $2,500.00

I'd say here were some very attractive purchase prices.

Others not mentioned sold as expected, I.E. K4 for $4,375.00

Cheers,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,

Yes, some good prices on some of the items. Others were a bit of a shock--3 blue cars going for $5,156.25 for example... but most of the cars went high. ...the WM Shay was electric. I was surprised the A3 didn't go higher...perhaps people waiting for the Accucraft version? Who knows.?

The Hemmens Porter went for $1500...still so popular after all these years...but the same price as RH 24...go figure...

The BB I thought might go higher but it was not the more desirable 4024.....

Sam


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

boilingwater said:


> Well Charles--you didn't think I'd let that go by, did you? I guess I can get over not buying a Challenger now.....
> 
> Sam



Sam
Now all you need is a set of goods cars and 2 bay hoppers. We are in the process of getting that train car set ready for the AD60. Enjoy your buy of the century.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Charles,

2 bay hoppers are not a problem for me....I've made up a lot of them and provided a few for you and Ryan over the years...I will need some new decals no doubt...I havent seen your AD 60...post away.

I had seen Bob Paule's Garatt run many years ago here in Madison and occasionally at large steamups. They are pretty rare to see in my experience. Anyone with experience please email me with your thoughts on operational improvements.....

Yes, I was fortunate

Thanks,
Sam


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

After viewing the Heritage auction results, the answer to the opening question, "Do Aster engines hold their value?" is .............. *NO.*

That being said, it looks like Dr. Rivet was right. Only things that are made in extremely limited quantities (less that 5) seem to hold their value or increase.

*WOW !!!!!* Their were some incredible deals made in that auction, or....... they were not actually great deals, just what those items are actually worth at this given time. And, it just seems like great deals to me because I love live steam.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Sam
Typo on my part....3 bay hoppers!


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Charles--that will be a problem....where are you sourcing those?


Steve-yes, in many cases the answer was a resounding one.... The gauge 1 cars,however, were not made in lots of five but did rather well in this auction because the demand for them is still very high and the cost of repurchase is also extremely high if even possible.....So, the old supply and demand laws kick in. there....I could have even purchased another BB for less than I sold my to you... but I have the Down Under Big Boy now to play with for awhile....I seem to remember a pulling challenge a while back...I will be very impressed if the Down under BB can pull as much as my old engine...we'll see I guess...

Sam


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Sam
Will be custom made hoppers. The goods cars are kits.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

So Sam, you got the Garatt............ *you lucky Dog*. I am happy for you.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks Steve. I've already had an offer to purchase it but no go..only a Challenger in trade might tempt me but right now I'm very pleased to have this in my collection. Nate has nearly the full Monte of awesome Aster engines but now I only have two more to go.....but I need a lot more luck to pull that off!

Sam


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## applegeekz (Nov 27, 2012)

Sam,

You are so lucky to have bought the Garratt at that price. You know how much I had paid for mine... I am so jealous . I dont think anyone will ever see that kind of deal again. Congrat!!! and welcome to the AD60 club.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Nate,

Thanks, I'm looking forward to it to being a member! I had another offer for more than 2X what I paid---the engine is, of course, closer in value to what you paid so you can feel better about that. I was thinking of driving to get it but Detroit is a haul (8 hrs each way) and I have to go through Chicago...not fun...but we will see. 

Too bad I am not going to visit my Michigan brothers in live steam any time in the near term...need to do that again at the right event.

Sam


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

A couple days ago someone got a real good deal on an Aster Garratt at Heritage Auctions. 

*ASTER LIVE STEAM MODEL BEYER GARRATT AD 60 LOCOMOTIVE WITH FRONT AND REAR TENDERS*
5-3/8 x 41-1/8 x 3-7/8 inches (1... http://fineart.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=5181&lotNo=87150

Lot 87150 » 

Auction Date: *May 28, 2014* 
Sold For: *$5,468.75*‡ Make An Offer To Owner







 
Bid Source: HA.com/Live


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

*Just bought another Aster - Can't help myself ;-)*

In another thread I think I said that I enjoyed building an Aster Castle recently so much so . . . that I would probably not buy any RTR Asters anytime soon, because I enjoyed the building process "that much."

It seems my nose grew just a little bit longer today as I bought a K4. I should have it mid next week.

Not wishing to stray too far off-topic, so why did I buy a K4?

Well . . .

I have always liked the look of the K4 and Pennsylvania is practically next door to New York and the LIRR used leased K4s before the end of the age of steam and I do live on Long Island and could re-livery the PRR to LIRR and besides, I do like ham and eggs for breakfast. All good reasons for purchasing a K4.

I mentioned earlier on that I *almost* bought one through Ebay from a dealer in Philadelphia months ago. At $3,800, I was the high bidder but did not meet his reserve. The guy later re-listed it and sold it for around $5,000.00.

So is an Aster K4 worth $5,000.00? I guess it was a few months ago.

In the Glenn Reid auction, the one they had went for $4,375.00. I reckon that establishes the recent price at $4,375.00, right?

In the past week or so I have been watching one on Ebay that has been listed as "new" and never fired, factory built with original wooden case and with a "buy it now" price of $5,000.00, obo.

I offered $3,500.00 and we agreed on $3,650.00, so I guess the "new" price du jour for an unfired K4 is $3,650.00.

I prefer meths fired models to butane, but I figure I can't go wrong at this price - unless we see one tomorrow for $2,500.00. 

Cheers,

Joe

Edit: Additionally, Hans @ Aster USA has a K4 for sale that he built some time ago and with 50 hours on. His price is $4,400.00. 

"All of the above" has allowed me to rationalize what is ,in essence, an irrational decision to purchase.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

*Ad60*

I believe that is the one that Sam got. I can still see him smiling.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

*K4 alcohol/coal fired*

Joe
For the bargain of the purchase you got on the K4 you could always convert it to alcohol/coal fired. If you ever "rationalize" this desire let us know we can make it happen!


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Tom,

I sent you PM. 


Joe, the K4 is a strange bird..i've seen ranges from 2.5K to about 6K for one in new, complete condition. I've seen an alcohol conversion and it ran well. I'm sure Charles will do a great job if you go that route.

Art, Yes, still smiling but I want the engine to get here safely..I always worry about that. There were a couple of other pretty nice deals there beside the Garratt--a T3, BR03, SR24, among others that I think went for below what I consider their real value. So there are others who had some luck as well.

Sam


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Sam
Your concern for safe arrival is the reason I did not bid on the Nord. Not sure who and what shipping arrangements were left me uncomfortable with the valuable piece not properly prepared (plus the cost of shipping).

Enjoy the Garratt, as we will in two weeks at Stapleton Steamup!
BTW- PLS meet has some video that will inspire you for more steam and fulfillment of dreams!


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Charles,

Yes, it always a concern for me..been on the bad end of a couple.. Michigan is not far for me to go but the firm they are using seems very good. It will be all wood crated and carefully packed to arrive with a LTL shipper. The shipping price is high but I do not have a good alternative.

I saw the Nord--it went for a decent price. I had one at one time long ago. Hans has it now--neat engine but I got tired of chocolate brown and my wife noticed it wasn't black so the "I only have one engine" line didn't work....

I wish we had a Stapleton-type layout around here. There isn't anything that comes close here in the Midwest....I'll check on the PLS video...another layout I'd love to run on....some super people there too. I haven't seen the Quirks for many years now....

Sam


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

boilingwater said:


> Tom,
> 
> I sent you PM.
> 
> ...


Sam
How do you think the shipping of those engines will be handled. My understanding was that th e buyer was responsible for pickup.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Art,

Yes, that's somewhat correct. The auction company provided a shipping company recommendation in Detroit. I contacted them--they got some info from me: zip code, value, weight,etc. They provided a quote and described how they were wood crating the engine. That's what I wanted and expected.. These folks seem to know their business and the care required...but we'll see when it arrives...

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

> Joe, the K4 is a strange bird..I've seen ranges from 2.5K to about 6K for one in new, complete condition. I've seen an alcohol conversion and it ran well. I'm sure Charles will do a great job if you go that route.


 Sam, thanks for your comments. I have already sent a PM to Charles. 

I am guessing that the reason for the wide excursion in price range for the K4 may be:

If one looks at it as a butane fired loco manufactured some years ago perhaps the value would be on the lower side of the range.

If one looks at it as a model of an iconic North American loco with a broad appeal to folks in the northeast especially, the pool of possible buyers increases and the value may go up as a result?

No point in over-thinking the thing though, right? 


This thread is (loosely) about the value of Aster engines as "investments" and I am enjoying it and expect it to continue to "grow legs."

If I do nothing with the K4, I can probably get my money back almost immediately.

If I were to convert the K4 (or have Charles convert it, most likely,) to alcohol firing what is implied? Cost goes up; resale value goes down? 

If I turn it into a rare LIRR liveried K4, I assume the resale value will immediately plummet.

Cheers,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,
Yes, all this is hard to know but it seems when the K4 is exposed to the railroaders not just live steamers, the pool of buyers goes up and sometimes the value. If you keep it in mint condition, you should have no real problem recovering what you paid. So, enjoy away and if you want it to be an alcohol fired engine i don't think it will hurt the value at all. The old gas systems in Asters were not great and do require some tweaking to get what I consider to be satisfactory results.

Sam


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Sam, you remember the trouble you went to packing the BB for me. You packed it as perfect as perfect could be. Then I had it UPS overnight before noon next day delivery. (About $800.00 with insurance) You had it packed so well a earth quake could not have hurt it.........but,  UPS still could. 

They still managed to drop the crate on it's end causing the beast to shift forward enough for the cow catcher to bend into the front wheels. Caleb came to my rescue helping me remove it and bend things back to the way it should be.

I remember how I felt waiting for the BB to arrive knowing that you did everything perfect and UPS could (and did) screw things up. Lets all think positive for those waiting for Loco's from the auction, so all will arrive in great shape.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Steve,

Yes, I thought I made the packing Ups proof but clearly there is no such thing. I felt awful when I heard about the damage. That is making me rethink shipping my engine...I have a few days to mull it over.

Sam


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

*Shipping*



boilingwater said:


> Steve,
> 
> Yes, I thought I made the packing Ups proof but clearly there is no such thing. I felt awful when I heard about the damage. That is making me rethink shipping my engine...I have a few days to mull it over.
> 
> Sam


Sam
Find some one going to Detroit and have them pick it up for you.
I did that with my BB when Jeff went to Niagra Falls to pick it up.
Although there is a difference between Detroit and Niagra.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Art,

Yes, the finding is the hard part. Everyone is unknown in the auction. I would need to take our van to get the engines, display table,etc....sounds like the shipper is winning.

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

So what is an unsteamed Chapelon Nord 231 worth?

I almost added the word "objectively" to the above sentence, but then I laughed at myself. 

I see that the one that was part of the Glenn Reid collection went for $5,468.75. The asking price for the one I found is around $5,700.00.

* * * * *

Aster Schools., FYI . . .

One just sold this week on Ebay for $1,748.26. Sold by a Henri Chabot in Tokyo.

The one I purchased back in February cost $1,525.00 from the very same Henri Chabot, also shipped from Tokyo. Mine was received in near-mint condition and had only one scratch in the black paint on the tender front where contact with the drawbar had slightly damaged the paint., otherwise perfect paint - and it runs well.

There is one for sale now on Ebay for a bit over $2,200.00, including an original oil painting of a Schools. No bids as yet and it is getting near the end.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi Joe,

That's probably close on the Nord. That engine doesn't show up very often so opportunity is a bit rarer and there are fewer data points to determine value. I had one a long time ago and sold it for a lot less than that but I acquired mine in an earthquake sale in CA..... It just wasn't of much interest to me and that chocolate brown made it a bit easier to part with....

The schools they made a lot more of and condition, of course, seems to be a key factor--albeit not always defining factor in determining price. 2K seems to be a reasonable price for a clean one....the painting I can't help you on...


Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Sam,

Thanks. 

My main reason for posting info on the Schools was to simply update the thread. As I see prices established here and there, I will continue to post and I am hoping others will continue to contribute to this thread, started by Nate.

I am not too concerned about the few little scratches on the Schools tender front, drawbar area. 

What I did with my Frank S, once I found matching black paint (high-temp gas grill paint, btw,) is to strip it to brass, clean it with solvent, paint it with an etching primer; give it a finish coat and pop it in the oven for about half an hour at 200 degrees F. Seems to be fine. I did this with the cow-catcher on the K4 after repairing it as well.

On the Nord . . .

There is no way to rationalize why we do the things we do. I find with women, we lust after them, we fall in love and then it wears off. We come to our senses. Eventually we decide to hang on to one or two. 

I have admired the lines of the Chapelon locos (231, 232 U1 and 241P) for a while now and I know if I don't buy any of them, I will stop lusting after them anyway.  If I do buy one, I will enjoy it for a time.

But here is reason enough to want to possess a Nord:






Of course it would be nice to own a rake of beautiful J & M coaches as well, no? 

Cheers,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,

Didn't see the youtube post......

Yes, I hear you on specific engines....the U1 is last loco to go in my group....and the cars--also somewhat hard to find are very $$$$...those too not leaving my collection for as long as I can hold on to them!

Nate--yes, your thread...time for some Challenger running videos....speaking of engines that I would like but not likely to be in my collection.....I think it will be a while before you see one of those up for sale...

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

This is another one of those threads to update from time to time, or so I think. 

I am of two minds on the subject of this thread, but if I were asked to choose between being able to buy at a low price versus being able to sell at a high price, I'd rather see that the things that we buy hold on to their value over time.

Of course, we all want to be able to buy low and sell high, but that's a little silly, isn't it?

* * *

At the moment, an *Aster GWR King George V *that looks to be in pristine condition has come on to Ebay from a guy in Connecticut. "Buy it Now" price is $4,750.00 - which seems like a good price. I bet he sells it for his asking price without having to wait too long.

Same fellow as above just listed a pristine *BR-38 K.P.E.V. P8* for $4,495.00 "Buy it Now."

Currently, there are two *BR 9F* for sale, *92214* in black and *"Evening Star," 92220* to local buyers on the Ebay.co.uk site. "Buy it Now" price on these is GBP 4,500 each ($6.828.00.) The BR 9F is a truly splendid well-mannered model. I finished up building mine a month or three ago and have not yet got 'round to putting up a build thread, but there is much to recommend it. The two have been up for a week or so and have not sold yet, but I am rooting for the seller on this listing.

Currently running for either the fourth of fifth attempt to sell, also on the Ebay UK site is a Gresley *A3 "Flying Scotsman" *in malachite green, factory assembled and un-steamed for GBP 5,250 ($8,004.00.) To me, this seems a tad optimistic on the part of the seller.  He hasn't dropped his price over the course of nearly two months of trying to sell it.

Recently an Aster *LNWR Precedent Class 2-4-0 Jumbo "Hardwick"* was unable to be sold for GBP 2,150 ($3,262.00) - which surprised me somewhat as it was also pristine and un-steamed and a "pretty" loco.

However; an Aster *LMS Jumbo 2-4-0 "Snowdon"* sold for $2,740.00 back in early December.

Apparently, Stirling Singles are desired by some, more than are Jumbos as a factory built *Stirling Single* advertised to have been steamed only once by David Stick was sold for $6,223.37 - also in early December.

A *Schools* with some minor blemishes went for $1,365.00 in mid-December.

Three Aster *Hudsons* found their way on and off Ebay recently, two of which disappeared under mysterious circumstances.

One J1c 5265 had been re-liveried TH&BR and sold for $2,587.34 as a well-used example in running condition, but with minor blemishes.

The second one was listed for an opening bid of $4,995.00, but disappeared from view without any bids due to "The listing was ended by the seller because there was an error in listing."

The most recent of the three had an opening bid price of $4,850.00. On its second listing (first re-listing,) it received one bid at the opening bid price and then suddenly, before the bid period ended: "The listing was ended by the seller because the item was no longer available."

I have a suspicious mind, so when I see an early end due to an "error in listing" or "no longer available," I assume a private deal was made outside of Ebay's purview.

Anything else? A *PLM* sold in Switzerland by Zuba-tech for about $2,200.00 and an S 2/6 failed to sell for an opening bid of $2,700 (Buy for $3,900.00) back in November.

I may have missed a few. 

One more: An Aster *USRA light Mikado* w/o axle pump option, new, un-steamed sold in Mid December for $3,200.00.

Consider this post to be a public service announcement. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

My Joe, that's a fairly detailed accounting... but yes, you missed a few but nothing major....

The King is the same one that was offered at the Reid auction. It only sold for $3750 there...I was somewhat surprised but there were several surprises there...perhaps this gent still holds to the old tenets you mention above.

It is certainly a nice time, in general, for anyone who wants one of the older Aster engines. There are some in very nice condition and at "reasonable" prices--whatever that is nowadays.....

Thanks for the update!
Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Sam, 

The guy mentioned that the King and the P8 came from a "museum" in Michigan, so I thought perhaps they were from the Reid collection, but I did not say so as I did not know so.

Someone just put up a little *Baldwin B-1 *for $605.00 and there is a used *JNR D-51* up as well starting at $2,800.00.

Were you able to sell your P8?

I note that Nate has or had his Castle up for sale as well.

I can't be tempted by any of the above, but if a 232-U1 or a 231E Nord showed up, that may be a different story. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm of several minds on this. I don't see why a un-steamed but new loco would cost the same as a OEM piece. Which is why I wont buy some of the the offers Joe mentioned.
I don't see why there is no adjustment for currency. If a Euro based engine was 4000 euros last November, why isn't it 3250 now? That's what it's worth in constant US dollars. 
I guess the answer is a locomotive is worth what you want to pay for it. If you can handle the cost, why does it matter what it costs?
I'm sure I have paid more than others for some of my locomotives. I know I paid less than I can sell some engines for others locomotives. I simply paid what I was willing to part with for the enjoyment of what I got.
Its a hobby, not a business. 

Just my 2 cents. Do I get to deduct that from my next purchase?


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

John,

I think you have the right attitude about this relative to the investment/cost side. Purchase what you want and enjoy away! 

Currency valuations are interesting that cut for and against at times but I'm sure sellers are not thinking what something is worth outside of their own currencies. The poor Europeans have to pay their custom fees on top of the purchase which makes selling our locos to them a bit more of a challenge.

Joe-the P8 above is also from the Reid collection. It sold at $2750-- a steal for that engine since a factory model sold for north of 5K. Mine remains in my collection. 

BTW, the King mysteriously ended too.... 
Sam


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## applegeekz (Nov 27, 2012)

StackTalk said:


> I note that Nate has or had his Castle up for sale as well.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Joe


Hi Joe,

I thought this thread have been long dead. Thank you for the update. I still like the Aster Castle a lot. Initially, I thought of putting it up for sale because I have another British Locomotive, Aster Rebuilt Merchant Navy. My goal is to collect one nice locomotive from each country. Now, thing has changed, I decided to keep the Castle. The only reason the sale is still up because I do not have permission to delete the thread . 

Nate


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## dougiel (Jun 3, 2008)

Joe,

that Flying Scotsman has been on and off Ebay for nigh on a year. It is always withdrawn before the auction ends. I paid £4000 for my then unsteamed model 18 months ago.

Hardwicke was a dodgy listing I think. The spelling and grammer of the listing was a little suspect. And no PayPal along with collection only does not help. If, as he says, he has other "Jumbo's" in boxes we may see a re-listing.

I missed out on Snowdon. As it was a plain black LMS version I thought it would make less then it did !.

Bought "Silver Link" from the SAS Trains Galore sale for some £4662.80 including buyers premium and P&P. A bit less than "Mallard" and it does need some work. These cost about £2000 back in 1987 !.

All the prices above mean nothing to me. Its the joy and pleasure of seeing them run that I am in this hobby for. Scotsman in the sun with 7 on as smooth as silk. Chasing after Novelty with four on. Evening Star in the rain with a leaky cylinder drain. The finished Castle kit barking up a 1% grade with ease. Bring it on !. 

Who cares about the cost when there is so much pleasure to be had from running them.

Dougie L


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Dougie,

I concur with your sentiment.

I have been poking around the Net hunting live steam locos and other items - not only Aster either - over a period of some months. I spend no more than 5 minutes a day at this activity, placing items on a watch list for which I may have only a passing interest.

Shortly after I made the most recent post above, I had a bit of regret for not having let the thread die out. I won't update it again.

I think the issue of valuation and/or investment value was well covered earlier on and nothing new of much worth (pun intended,) has been added by simply rattling off a list of recent sale and non-sale info. 

My aim was to share some of the information I was gathering, but when taken as a whole, it may look as though there was some method to my madness whereas, the condition of my mind may have been best described as an empty vessel. 

Yes, let's enjoy our steamers without focusing too much attention on their extrinsic value. 

This post is meant to be something of an apology for bringing up the subject unnecessarily. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

John Allman said:


> Its a hobby, not a business.


 John, very well said. If somebody worries about loosing money on their "Toys" they should have not bought them in the first place.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

With Accucraft and now Wuhu out there I would think one has to be careful. Some Asters will hold their value and some will not. Not all Asters were that good. There were some Aster disasters. The coming inflation will make all goods more expensive. So buying a live steamer will be as good as owning gold coins, only better since you can play with your steamers. Coins remain locked up in your safe or safe deposit box.


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## R. V. Brunell (Jun 24, 2014)

Let us ponder the effect of foreign currency exchange rates. Can we really conceive of an absolute "constant dollar" value? Isn't it more like looking out the window of a train at the one on an adjacent track and trying to determine which train(s) is (are) "moving" and in which direction? How easily one is deceived until the utility pole is seen! And in the FX market there are no such poles.

If a locomotive was "worth" 4,000 euros last year how can it be worth fewer euros now that the euro has dropped vs. the USD?

Another problem in trading with Euroland is that, while their VAT is rebated on exports to the USA, the rebate, like VAT itself, only applies to newly-made goods. VAT, nevertheless, supports a higher Euroland price on secondhand goods for which no rebate is possible. So, the problem is not selling to them but buying their secondhand deals.

That said, the collective mind moves slowly, so the recent currency changes should give us some near-term opportunities abroad. Just don't get trampled by the Swiss out shopping today.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

If a loco was worth 4000 euros last year, it was 6000 US dollars. Its still 4000 euros, but now you buy it with 4500 US dollars. So to someone who only trades in USD, the drop in foreign currency is quite a boon.
My point is that products should be cheaper for Americans to buy. And they are, if you purchase something in non US dollars.
If you live in the US, you wont see a change in pricing from last year to this year, because you are only dealing with US dollars.


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## Two Blocked (Feb 22, 2008)

Realistically? No and never, especially if one figures in inflation of the US$. One should not engage in the small scale live steam hobby unless it is for the *fun factor* during one's lifetime.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not disagreeing with you. I am merely pointing out some realities of the current economic climate.
in any event, it's not the end of the world.


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