# Derailment blues



## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Is there a good source of info on what to do about derailment problems or is this the best place to go? I'm having a problem with one particular train. LGB passenger cars of the older "alpine" series. Should I try adding weight to the cars? should I try silicone lube on the axles? Any advise appreciated!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

First we need to know if your operating indoors or out. Type track and diameter of curves. With out some additional info its hard to diagnose your problem as to weather its equipment related or track related. So any additional info you can provide then we can see if we can correct the problem. Later RJD


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

- Is it one particular car that derails? 
- Is the derailment always at the same location? 
- Is it going through a switch? 
- Is the train going up or down a grade when it derails? 
- Is your trackwork level? 
- Is your track spacing within the min./max. tolerance? 
- Are the wheels on the cars that derail within the min/max tolerance? 
- What type of track do you have? 
- Do you clean the track regularly?


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

As a live steamer who never cleans track, I have to ask: 
Jintyp, why would track cleaning effect derailments? 
Not trying to be difficult, just curious. 

Harvey C.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Harvey 

Outside layouts can have small twigs and pebbles that can cause derailments. 

Sailbode

But back to the main questions, you need to check the gauge of the wheels on the cars that keep derailing. If only certain cars derail, check the distance between the flanges, side to side, compared to the cars that never derail. Also, check the couplers for binding when traversing curves. Another thing to check is the track joiners. If you are using Aristo Craft track and joiners, note that one side of the joiner is higher than the other side. This higher side should always be on the outer side of the rail or else the wheel flange can hit the jointer and cause a derailment. 

Randy


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

They should spin free, so lube them as necessary. 
Plastic wheels grab dirt and can cause derailments if they haven't been cleaned, you said they are older... part of cleaning the track question above...


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Harvey, as Randy stated "things" can get on the track and cause rough running, leading to derailments. So cleaning track, in my opinion, is a good thing no matter how you power your loco. For example, my layout is on the ground and after a rain if I put a car on the track and push it along I can hear and feel the wheels grinding on tiny pieces of grit that I can't even see. Sometimes I can even see tiny wobbles of the car. If I clean the track I can feel and hear a significant difference in the wheels. As a live steamer your track may be elevated and you don't have worry about grit or anything on your track, but I wanted to suggest it as a possibly to the fellow that asked for ideas/help.


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow, quick responses.. Ok the track is LGB brass and is an outdoor layout that has been in place for 15 years. When ever we run the trains we first start with a dependable train (an LGB Forney) and I walk around with the forney to check for twigs or debri that might have found it's way onto the track. As to which car, it is typicaly one or two behind the engine. Not the same car and not in the same place. fairly level grade, often on a curve but not always. The train is battery powered so we don't "clean" the track anymore (used to have to with track power). We have 2 long lines (approx 800 feet each) and 2 short lines approx 30 feet each. This particular train just seems to be prone derailments no matter where we run it. I cvan run the Forney or an LGB Mikado with 6 or 8 cars on any of these lines all day without a derailment. Put this LGB passenger line on and it wont go around once without a problem. We're ready to give the darn thing a good kick! I'm thinking if the trailing car are imposing too much drag that may be the problem. YTour thoughts? and thanks!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

It would help us if you could give us the LGB number of the car that is causing the problem. There are long and short passenger cars (even some medium lengths). I've had occasional problems with the Swiss glacier express cars. These are the longest cars that LGB made. Try backing off the screw that holds the trucks to the car. The trucks on the longer LGB cars need to be able to have a lot of movement, up down as well as left and right. 

Are the cars that go around without a problem shorter than the cars that cause the problem? 

If it happens on a curve what is the radius? 

A little more information would help us help you. 

Chuck


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the additional info. Lets look at the cars first. Have you had them for some time or are they new purchase and now just running them? I would put them on there back and check the up and down movement and the side to side play ( rocking motion) I would make sure that they move quite freely. Add lube and also ajust the truck screw. Lube the wheels axles also. Check back to back wheel spacing to make sure its correct and not tight or wide gage. 

Next check the track for cross level. These cars can be very picky about good track conditions. As you mentioned the track has been down for some time so checking the cross level and correcting any spots that are not level will improve the operation of the cars. Curves are one place that cars like to derail on. So check level there also. Make sure the cars do do not bind in the curve. Curves could be to tight for the length of cars which would restrict the truck movement in the curve and causing a bind. Later RJD


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## White Deer RR (May 15, 2009)

I had to switch from hook and loop couplers to knuckle couplers because of derailment issues on tight curves. (Mine stuff is all Aristo, 4 foot diameter curves.)


It looked to me like the hook and loop couplers had less room to play, and would bind up. I had almost always run my single loop in one direction (clockwise,) so when I added an expansion that included left hand turns I soon learned I need to do something! I tested this by exchanging the position of the "hooks" on the couplers and guess what, then it derailed on right hand curves and not left hand curves. It probably shouldn't do this at all but I'm hardly a stickler for precision trackwork.


Rivette and others above alluded to checking the couplers, credit where credit is due.


I would yield to the more experienced members, I'm still a beginner after three years. Obviously if you already have knuckle couplers that's no help, just a thought.


Best of luck!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The reason that I asked which cars you have is because LGB has three different groups of cars that could be considered to be part of an "alpine series". 

The smallest represent the Zillertal Bahn. This is a narrow gauge railroad in the Austrian alps. These cars are short and have two axles. The LGB Zillertal cars are about 10 inches long. My Zillertal coaches are in Arizona so I couldn't take a picture of them for comparison, they are similar in size to the car in the top of the picture.


In the 1980s LGB came out with a series of Swiss (RhB) 4 axle passenger cars. These are intermediate in size. This car LGB #3064 and it is about 18 inches long.

In the 1990s they came out with the longest Swiss (RhB) cars. The car on the bottom is LGB #30650 and it is 25.5 inches long. My guess is that this is similar to the ones that are giving you trouble. While LGB designed these to be run on all radius curves, R1 (4ft diameter), R2 (5 ft diameter), and R3, they are best run on R3 (8ft diameter) or larger. I even had trouble with mine derailing on Aristcraft 10 diameter curves. As others have said check that the track is level (across the track). Does it derail when you run the train in the opposite direction. I have found that sometimes running counterclock wise rather than clock wise will solve the problem. 


You still haven't said what diameter you are using and how many cars you are pulling. Try starting out with one car and see how it runs, if it doesen't derail, then keep adding a car until you have a problem. This is the kind of information that we need to be able to help you.











Chuck


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Check the wheel gauge. Often wheels are set too close together. You want, um, 1.575 inches between the "backs" of the wheels.


(There's been much argument over the proper dimension to measure, but this is easy and works.) 


The other thing to check is your track work. Is it nice and flat? Are there kinks at the joints where there's a gap to catch a wheel flange? Does it suddenly change grade at a joint causing wheels to lift off the rail?


If there's a spot where it frequently derails, get your noggin on the ground and watch closely as you drive slowly over that spot and usually you can see what's happening.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Check back to back wheel spacing to make sure its correct and not tight or wide gage. 

If all the other trains work fine, then it has to be something about these cars. I suspect the wheels - probably one axle has a pair of wheels that are too far apart. Compare all the back-to-back of the wheels on all the cars of that train and see if one is out of spec.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmm, posts 5, 10, 13 and 14 mention back to back on the wheelsets. I think that is the first order of business. 

Also, we have no idea about the trackwork except it's LGB brass, been outside for 15 years, and often has grades on curves. 

My guess is that the track work has settled over the years and you have "warp" in the track that is noticed first by the longer wheelbase passenger cars. 

How about telling use the type of curves? R1, R2, etc? 

Very often people want to blame the cars, because it's "just these cars", but it's really that certain cars show the problems BEFORE others do, and the problems are trackwork. 15 years is a long time, how many times has the track been re-leveled? Are the rest of the cars shorties? 

Regards, Greg


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

OK first Chuck , the passenger cars are the same as the largest ones in your picture. 
The track is hand layed flex track (LGB brass) with no sharp curves Tightest radius would be approx 4 feet (8 foot diameter). Regarding the other trains and cars, the typical freight train (box cars and flat) don't seem to have a problem. We run a Diesel Sante fe A-B-A with 5 longer passenger cars with very little trouble. Again, these cars are longer than the Alpine cars. 
Incidently, this entire Alpine train is currently on E-Bay, 
search: LGB Rare Alpine Crocodile Passenger Train RC-Bat.-Sound 
because we are running out of patience. If it sells good, if not, I will continue to try to correct the problem


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I just went and looked at your site on ebay. WOW that is nice track work and that's one really nice train. From what I could see there, I doubt that it is a problem with the track. I think that it is the trucks or the wheels. These cars have a metal tire that fits over the plastic wheel in a press fit. I have had trouble with the tire coming loose and causing all sorts of trouble. It can be difficult to see unless you are specifically looking for it. Check to see that each tire is in its proper place. If necessary slip the tire all the way off and put a drop of glue on the plastic and press on the tire back in place.

One last question, is it always the same car? 


Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Post 8: "not the same car and not always in the same place" (from memory). 

Sure sounds like the cars themselves are problematic. It could be as simple as the back to back. A digital reading caliper can be had at harbor freight for about $15. A good investment. The number that Tom gave is a good starting point, very close to the G1MRA standard that works so well for many (are you listening NMRA?). 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Sure sounds like you need to realy take a close look at the cars. I also would check the way the couplers are working could also be binding up. Again besides the back to back check the swing of the truck and the vertical movement. also the side to side (rocking) as mentioned this may need some lube. Later RJD


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Well if it were me i would just send the car to me and you wouldnt have to worry about it anymore...he he he


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

This might not be the problem but on model and real railroads, stringlining often causes derailments. I think the heavy cars need to be near the locomotive to prevent this and the lighter ones in the back. 

I would also watch the coupler for free play and slowly run the car; maybe take a video at problem point


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## Joe Mascitti (Oct 30, 2008)

Here's a good derailment....after watching this...you may not feel so bad...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X764q33UUgQ


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

There are 3 types of wheels on cars I have run on my RR. 

1. All plastic wheels... These get swapped out right away to all metal wheels for better stability esp in the wind. 

2. LGB plastic wheels with metal rims. Ok most of the time and much better than plastic outdoors, heavier than plastic but lighter than solid wheels. 

3. All metal (solid) wheels, very heavy and run really great especially on long cars. Mine just happen to ne USA Trains, but there are others available. 

There is a very noticeable difference on the solid wheels weight than the LGB metal wheels but I like the LGB wheels on cabooses at the end of a train as it makes the ccaboose lighter than the other cars. 

Also, long cars/engines do not like side to side uneven track especially if the truck is long. American 4 axle Freight cars tend to have short spacing on the trucks but your long passenger cars do have long spacing on the trucks and are more critical of side to side leveling. 

My worst case rolling stock for testing my track is the Aristo RDC and the SD-45, and the RDC is more sensitive to uneven side to side uneven track.


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

Agreed. Check those wheelsets carefully, preferably with a digital caliper. I have had to modify some of my switches just for LGB stock, which as it turned out had narrower spaced wheels than all my other stuff. Even a little discrepancy can cause heck.






Posted By rlvette on 09 Jul 2009 04:42 PM 
Harvey 


you need to check the gauge of the wheels on the cars that keep derailing. If only certain cars derail, check the distance between the flanges, side to side, compared to the cars that never derail. nt. 

Randy


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

In my experience it's not wheel gage that's usually the problem, it's uneven track. If the track goes from level to canted, or worse from canted one way to canted the other, you'll have problems. It's true that wheel gage really does matter, but I'd just say it matters less.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Wheel gauge (back to back) matters most through turnouts, where most derailments occur. 

Warp (the prototype railroad term) will derail you anywhere. 

Maybe we can narrow it down more by getting an answer here... 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

And don't forget adverse elevation in a curve. And excessive elevation also Will derail you every time. Later RJD


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

On thing to try is Loosen the screw that attached the trucks to the cars which will allow the car to rock side to side a little. If this improves the car performace File down the two little tabs on base of the car where they touch to top of the truck. Just a little. I had a 40 ft Evanens car that gave me a lot of troucle till I did the above. It runs fine now. Marty did this to my streamliner cars and they run find now.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

There also could be trouble if your curves are this sharp 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=86b_1242658869


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

or perhaps like this


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Are the trucks stiff and are the axles equalised? 
A ridgid truck can cause wheel lift. 
The journals should move up and down easily in the side frames, dirt can impeed that, one stuck up creates a non-stable 3 wheel truck....


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By SE18 on 14 Jul 2009 08:06 AM 
There also could be trouble if your curves are this sharp 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=86b_1242658869 
Beauty! Hey, if it's designed in AutoCAD 3dD then it must work! /sarcasm off


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

OK Guys, I had to step away for a day but now I'm back. First regarding the track. Of course there are variations but 4 other trains get by just fine so my feeling is, there must be something different about this one. There was a mention of heavy cars closer to loco. Well that is where our battery car is which frequently is the problem...but not always. The battery car is quite heavy and only supported by a single axle front & rear. I'm wondering if a pair or 2 axle trucks might help? Your thoughts? I should mention that this layout and train is not mine but rather one I service for the owner. I've been tasked with getting the trains converted to battery & RC as well solving any issues like this Alpines derailment blues. 
Thanks for all the suggestions. 
PS: I know this is not the place but if any of you would care to offer suggestions one what type of track I should use on my own fledgling outdoor layout I'd appreciate all the advise. Going with batteries so conductivity is not an issue. Price is the biggest concern and than appearence and then durability.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think you should not overlook any possibility, especially if the solution has eluded you so far. 

Start with the track, and check the cross level and regular level. You can buy an inexpensive gauge to check crosslevel for about $5. 

Your statement that there are 4 trains with no problems means it's not the track is not necessarily true. As your trackwork gets worse over time, the most finicky cars derail first. Aren't these the longest cars? That makes sense. 

You apparently have a bunch of smaller cars, so they won't show the problems as soon. 

If the fundamental part of your layout is not right, all that will happen is that it will get worse. 

I sort of sense that you do not want it to be the track, since it implies a big job. That's natural, but if it IS the track, your problems are just beginning. Catch them now. 

There's been a lot of good suggestions, and also in my opinion, poor ones that are merely bandaids. 

I used to only be able to run 6-7 car trains reliably... of course I looked at the cars first.... it was my track. Now I can run 45 car trains on the same track. 

All I can do is give you my best experience, but I strongly believe that the foundation of your layout is your track, and until you are SURE it is in good shape, I would not rule it out. 

I saw your pictures, and it looks like there are some humps in the track on some of the trestles. Closer shots would help see if that is really true. 

Best regards, 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

After reading all the post I do believe you need to be taking a good look at the track conditions. It seems you really do not want to get into that part of the problem solving. As mentioned some cars just don't like much variations in track geometry. It's always easier to blame the rolling stock at times then to check the track as this will take a little more thought and work to correct. Once you set your mind to correct then problems will end. Later RJD


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Don't forget to add to the 21 suggestions so far, if there's negative or positive wheel camber or if the axles are off-center. 

No shortage of things that can cause derailment blues. They should have a country song


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By sailbode on 14 Jul 2009 04:57 PM 
PS: I know this is not the place but if any of you would care to offer suggestions one what type of track I should use on my own fledgling outdoor layout I'd appreciate all the advise. Going with batteries so conductivity is not an issue. Price is the biggest concern and than appearence and then durability. 
Take a look at Llagas Creek aluminum rail, available in Code 215 and 250. Lowest cost option short of finding used track for sale (I think that's right - somebody correct me if not), best appearance IMHO, but not as durable in terms of resistance damage from stepping on it as the larger, stronger brass and stainless steel options. You can get tie strips for it in three different scales/looks, to fit best with what you run. You can even get F scale (1:20.3) standard gauge tie strips! Switches _may _cost more than those made in brass or SST that are mass produced, but if you want the appearance of more-to-scale rail, it's worth it IMHO. Most outdoor layouts don't have enough switches to make that a dominant factor anyway.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think LGB wheels with their deep flanges work well on Code 215 track...


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

You just start another round of problems. Later RJD


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I use switchcrafters Alum rail code 250; I think it is the least expensive and comes in 6 foot sections (I buy rail and make ties since 7/8 scale, larger than Fn3


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