# Getting to the point...



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I am now about 90% through building what I hope is my last set of points. The frog has been silver soldered from the machined 14° 30 ' on the rotary table using the milling machine. The frog has been screwed to the sleepers and epoxy dripped over everything to hold it all in place. Epoxy putty acts as the support agent (these are flange runner points) and the whole lot packes to the gunnals with car body filler.

This afternoon I will put the cutting disc on the angle grinder and carve the route through the frog. Then it is out with the scrapers and chisels to produce a flat bottomed trench.

This will sit at the end of the outer loop and connect to the middle of the "dragstrip" a quarter mile dual straight. The outer loop, like the inner loop is a transitional curve so it is more like an eclipse than a smooth tangential curve. Looking back on it I should have stuck with tangential curves...

Both my focii for the transitional curve were inside my orchard and of course out of easy view(!)

Then there was the wonderful task of bending track to 3.75m, 4.5m and then 6.0m radius and back again.... Not really that hard with a two yard length of rail as the mechanical advantage over a yard length is collossal.

No, I don't use a rail bender. I snap off one of the spacer bars and nudge the sleeper back. This produces a radial torque. Do this with 58 sleepers over two yards and the rail bends like rubber! Drop the curve rular into the curve and allow the sleepers to move (condition) to this shape.

Then nick the ends pf the rail with a file where the ends of the curve rular sit and slice square with the angle grinder. Fitting the fishplates is quite a pain... They have nice square bolt moulding that rip the flesh from your fingertips but they do look bery nice...

Regards

Ralph


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Wot? No pics?


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## DetailsDetails (Jul 28, 2021)

Is this .332 rail with LGB ties?


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

R1: Yes there will be pictures posted! 

R2: No, this is code 250 s/steel bullhead rail in ABS sleepers. Cutting with a diamond disc in the angle grinder with a plunging cut through both pieces of track gives a 2mm wiggle room to slip the points in. Far quicker and easier than faffing around with a hacksaw.

It is evening now and I will plug the camera into the computer and download the pictures in the morning.

Regards

Ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

After tea, toast and porridge... Here are the pictures

The Pictures

Everything is made from wood 25mm thick and Tanalised". This is a wood treatment that is very good, but the main problem is that the wood is normally supplied fresh from the treatment plant. This makes the wood very "wet". Power tools throw wet sawdust and treatment all over the place. It tastes TERRIBLE!!!

regards

ralph


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## DetailsDetails (Jul 28, 2021)

Gorgeous.
Tanalized?


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Tanalize is a copper fungicide treatment. The lengths of wood are pressure treated with the solution. This leaves the wood a slightly blue green hue which fades over a few days. I am going to have to build a step stile over the track for small girls to use and I will use Tanalized timber for that.

The last part is "in" and the track has to condition for about a week before it is finally nailed into position. 

Then it is out with the reels of cable and connect the two points motors to the mimic board and attach the signals to their section of the "totem pole" switching. 

When the signal infront of the points shows Red, the totem pole before it has to show Yellow, and finally the one before that has to show Double Yellow. Each "think box" contains four DPDT relays and diode logic matrix. These see the world through microswitches acting on the points blades and Zero Volt sensors on a yard length of rail.

All of this will have to wait until after the storms - so Monday looks to be the first day back at the soldering iron...

Regards

Ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh Sorry!

The Pictures

regards

ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The metalwork on the turnouts and crossings looks very nice.

You probably mentioned this, did you build up the turnout frogs, or make castings, or purchase cast frogs?

Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

The frogs are home made. I am not aware of a commercial frog for Gauge '3'. The wedge is machined from a brass flat using a milling machine and a rotary table to 14° 30'. My eyes are still good enough to read the vernier to 30' of arc. This slots into the web of the rail and is Silver soldered to the side rails. This assembly is bolted through the ABS sleepers and then epoxy resin poured over the union to stabilise the position. There is only so much an M2 bolt can take...

The ramp and contouring is made from epoxy putty, rough cut with a stone disc in an angle grinder then a layer of fine putty. The lumps and bumps of the excess putty that have squidged out are covered over with P38 car body filler and the lot smoothed over.

I leave the lot for a month to all settle down then apply primer and matte black paint to the garish white, yellow and pink of the frog assembly. I have found that if I do it sooner the still active hardeners and stuff -peel the paint off.

Regards

Ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd love to see a closeup of the frog, I know this takes a lot of work.

these are "flange running" (we call flange bearing in the US) correct? How is your experience with wear? That would be a concern to me if the ramp is not solid metal.

Greg


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## MGates (Mar 16, 2016)

The frogs we sell at Llagas Creek are to Gauge 1 standard with a 3mm flangeway gap. The Gauge 3 standard is 3.5mm flangeways. If you are using a milling machine already, you could probably use it with a small milling bit to shave off the 0.5mm from the inside of the check rail built on the frog to make them Gauge 3 compatible if you so desired. The homemade solution is nice too though!

-Mike


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Note he is using flange bearing frogs, which need particular attention to flangeway depth and the ramps in and out.

Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I have uploaded a few old shots of the production of my first set of points. These are pre-fixed 100 followed by a number. The shot that shows the pickled frogs (I use Citric acid to clean off the flux) 100 1040 is the shot showing the home made frog. The G'3' specs state 2mm flanges for sprung axles and 2.3mm for unsprung. I am lazy and when I turn them I always use a 2.3mm flange as I never know what the wheel is going to be used for. This allows me to simply have a "tooth" scraper at 2.3mm. 100 1042 shows the rail bent for the completed set of points. Over time I have amassed a number of "tools" to help me make points -but I still keep coming back to my simple "comb" setter.

Depending on what I am building -the wheels are either "Grey Cast Iron", (which is repellent to turn!), or Bright Mild Steel slices. Either way the flanges are 2.3mm high and 1.6mm wide with a 10 degree taper on each face. This does leave a slight flat rim on the edge -but it is still sharp enough for a multiple kilo loco to hurt fingers. I cannot say that I have noticed that much wear on the on and off ramps -it is mostly paint rubbing off. I have used "Milliput" for years -from everything from emergency burst pipe repair to repairing plant pots. I "taps" very well and even M5 bolts will hold in them.

regards

ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Ralph, perhaps the somewhat flat edge of the flange helps minimize wear. Interestingly enough, most people don't quite follow the flange bearing frogs, and there are indeed uses for them in prototype railroads, often on high speed turnouts, I was surprised.

If you can keep your flange depths consistent (and clearly you personally can), it makes even smoother turnouts given the other compromises we must make for tread width, etc.

In our hobby, it's almost impossible to have a "gradual" frog (high frog number) that does not have a model wheel drop into the throat.

In Z scale, Marklin used plastic frogs with a conductor in the bottom of the flangeway to keep conductivity on these particularly sensitive locos.

Thanks,

Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Mathematical systems show that the number is very close to the Cotangent of the frog angle. The G"3"S does sell on precise frog filing tools. But as anyone who knows me would collapse in fits of laughter at the thought of me doing that much work...

So instead it is out with the rotary table, look up tje required angle from my frog tables, parse the number back to a Cotangent and wind up the table to the correct angle. Hit the power and then crank the Y feed.

This afternoon (thunderstorms permitting) I am going to apply the tin opener to a couple fo my signals that have failed - it is more than likely either "black wire corrosion" or rust!!!

Regards

Ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Before I go soaked getting the stuff back inside.... The answer is that it is both(!) Rust was expected (there are a lot of reservoirs around here) but "black wire corrosion" is a highly unwanted addition.

This better classed as "electrophoretic attack". The negative cable attracts all the positive particles - which then eat it away... I did try my best using Silver jacketed Copper conductors. It is not that expensive and most EU supplied "control cable" has to be this way to prevent black wire corrosion HAH!

It had eaten through the chrome plating on the pins of the Din plug - thereafter the rust had a feast. The same happened at the LED end of the wiring except more so. The corrosion attacted the anode connection as it entered the LED and the anode connection then fell off. 

More tea, more gingernuts and think positive thoughts...

Regards

Ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I used to leave DCC power on the rails 24/7.... those currents ate the jumpers on the underneath of turnouts for lunch. Not smart on my part, and I unnecessarily killed a lot of frogs (live ones) when real legs were on one rail and they reached to the other one.

So the electrophoretic attack is sort of unwanted plating to the negative side, and probably etching of any material/plating on the positive side. 

My DCC, being alternating current, just "ate" metal... and the Aristo turnouts have stainless steel, copper, tin plated wire, and steel screws... .what a mess.

Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Having dissected the signal after the evening meal... It does look like any black wire corrosion is going to have to be lived with... I have ordered some 50/0.1 cable to fit to a couple of signal. This is 50 strands of conductor 0.1mm diameter. The conductor is "German Silver" an alloy Copper and Nickel. Not a great conductor - but chemically fairly resistant to attack.

We now wait for the post bus!

Regards

Ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

This morning the cable, points motors and NOT the microswitches(!) arrived in the post. I have already modified the points motors to take G3 point masses. This involves drilling out the motor arm to 2mm and replacing the springy steel wire with 2mm Aluminium rod. Similarly the fulcrum plate is drilled to 2.5mm.

If I can dodge the thunderstorms I can get outside and begin installation.

Regards

Ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I gave up waiting and settled for getting out the bright yellow rubberised overalls. How much rain fell on me I cannot say, but I gave up on socks and simply wore my gardening "Crocs"...

The return part of the systems is "in" as is the insert paet. The insert part now requires the installation of the protective 4 aspect signal. Even though this (should) only ever show Green or Double Yellow with lit feathers it will still require a "think box" and cabling.

Tomorrow promises to be drier and hopefully dual strand cable can be stapled to tqo sets of points. Then it simply a matter of "programming" the logic board to tell the think box what to do!

I have my third open day of this running season in under two weeks time. If the system is not running in a week then I will "nail shut" the new outer loop and reserve it for Thomas, Percy and James to use. Bachman sold these for Gauge '1' but it is no real problem to re-gauge then to G3. 

Regards

Ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I unlimbered the cable tools and started work. Sir Isaac Newton must have formulated his theory of gravity in the autumn. This time of year I have to dodge the gages that drop from the trees onto the track. They can make a mess of clothes - but they are delicious!!! 

As I said the final cables from the connection point at Brassica Station are now laid in and stapled into position. This brings the pair count up to Twenty Four and the maximum stall load from the points motors to 10 Amperes. Another 10 Ampere psu provides the juice for the signalling systems.

Now it is down to "truth tables" and "logic squares" to get the last set of points into the Mimic Board. Physically this five diode and four DPDT relays. The sysyem can count from Zero to Seven (000 to 111) the only unoccupied "channel" is 000. The main problem being how to detect 000 (!)

Once this has been done (not that hard) the next problem is the route setting display on the Mimic Board and the programmed logic at the think boxes. 

Easy part:

Show Red on the insertion safety signal of the outer loop if in use and the inner loop is not.
Show double Yellow and lit feathers if inner loop is in use.

Hard part:

If outer loop is in use show Red at insertion for inner loop. DEPENDING on which up line has fed the loco to the insertion signal send Yellow to proceeding signal. Keep the other feed line at Red(!)

If anyone wants me I am with a mug of tea, some gingernuts disappearing under a mound of pencil shaving...

Regards

Ralph


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