# inside vs outside frame locos ?



## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello
Question? I am thinking about buying a bachmann Heisler loco that was originally offered in either an outside or an inside frame configuration, One has big clunky pieces on the outside of the wheels and the other has just the spoked wheels and the connector rods showing. I believe Bachmann builds their stuff in scale to represent all narrow gauge equipment so with the frames being in or out are they trying to represent narrow and standard gauge all in one engine even though the body of the engine is the same after all they run on the same track anyways??? 
Which is which? is the heisler with the blocky bits covering the spoked wheels an outside frame? Their new Forney is offered in both in and out but looknig at photos of each I cannot see a difference in them. 
The Heisler was a big tuff engine and I want it to appear that way on my RR, if the frames were on the inside would it give the appearance of the engine being on spindly legs that threaten to topple, Would the outside frame give the engine a stout more robust look of power? My Climax has really nice spoked wheels that look good but that engine is smaller than the heisler so it looks ok to me. 
I want the engine to look rugged and powerful should I get the outside framed? 
Is there anyone out there that can explain the difference and set me straight and maybe post a photo or 2 with their opinion?? 

Thanks
Todd


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## dawgnabbit (Jan 2, 2008)

My own opinion is that outside frames DO make an engine look "stout" and "more robust." Go with what looks best to you.


Most (if not all) standard gauge locos were inside-frame; narrow gauge locos often (but not always) had outside frames to accommodate a reasonable-sized firebox and boiler. Bigger firebox and boiler means more steam and hence a more powerful locomotive.

There are other reasons for outside frames. The D&RG's K-37's were orignally buillt as standard gauge engines; later the wheels were moved inside the frames for narrow gauge-operation.


Cheers, 


Dawg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

And, of course, model what you like.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I think there is some confusion here..
There is a BIG difference between inside and outside "truck sideframes" of the Heisler,
and the true inside or outside frame of the Forney..

On the Heisler, it is only the *truck sideframes* that are inside or outside frame! 
On the Forney, its the entire locomotive frame that is inside or outside.. 

Technically the Heisler is not "inside frame" or "outside frame"..since there is no difference in the locomotive frame between versions.. 
its more accurate to say the Heisler has "inside frame trucks" or "outside frame trucks" 

Heisler with Inside frame trucks..the wheels are clearly visable: 
http://members.optusnet.com.au/lambingflat/113_1326.jpg 

Heisler with Outside frame trucks..the wheels are "hidden" by the "outside" truck sideframes: 
http://www.wgrr.ca/Catalogue/Engines/Steam/Heisler.jpg 


The Forney however has true inside or outside frames! 
the entire locomotive frame is very different in the two versions..and is very noticable.. 

Inside frame forney, note that the drivers are clearly visable..the locomotive frame is *inside* the drivers: 
http://www.ngtrains.com/Pages/Bachm...forny1.jpg

Outside frame forney, note that the drivers are much more hidden..the locomotive frame is actually *outside* of the drivers: 
http://www.ngtrains.com/Pages/Bachm...forny2.jpg

also the driver counterweights are not physically attached to the drivers on the outside frame Forney, the counterweights spin outside of the frame.
On the inside frame version, the driver counterweights are cast right into the drivers, like they are on all other "normal" (inside frame) locomotives..


Scot


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## dawgnabbit (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 31 Mar 2010 10:56 AM 

Technically the Heisler is not "inside frame" or "outside frame"..since there is no difference in the locomotive frame between versions.. 
its more accurate to say the Heisler has "inside frame trucks" or "outside frame trucks" 



Quite correct. I bow to the expert on this one. 

FWIW, I still think (and it's my opinion only) that outside frames add visual massiveness, whether on trucks or frame proper.

Dawg


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By dawgnabbit on 31 Mar 2010 11:07 AM 


FWIW, I still think (and it's my opinion only) that outside frames add visual massiveness, whether on trucks or frame proper.

Dawg 

I agree..
if its a "Robust" look you are after, the outside frames definately add some mass and bulk..
although IMO on the Heisler, the difference isnt really all that great, since the sides of the trucks are a pretty small part of the overall mass of the loco.
IMO, for the Heisler, I prefer the "look" of the inside frame trucks better..because you can see the driver spokes spinning..

For the Forney, I like the look of the outside frame better!
because it does add that "low-slung, heavy" appearance..and the seperate spinning counterweights are cool..
but on the other hand, the inside frame forney has a much "cleaner" look, which is also appealing..

It really just down down to which look you prefer more.. 
its a personal judgment call, (if you arent modeling a specific prototype locomotive of course)

Scot


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks guys that is the info\lesson that I was looking for. I think I prefer the wheels showing on the Heisler but looking at the clear photos Scot linked, the outside truck frame do add a lot to the beefiness of the engine. The one I'm considering has blackened side frames so they don't stick out as much as those silver ones. On the Forney I prefer the look of the outside frame for the same reason BEEFcake! 
I might have to flip a coin on this one. The best part is I have my wifes blessing I think she is actually tired of hearing me talk about it. 
Thanks again 
Todd


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## scoobster28 (Sep 15, 2008)

I personally think that the outside truck Heisler looks awful, bloated, and just plain strange. But, that is my own opinion. Whereas I think both models of the Forney look very nice.


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

I have been kicking it around all day whether I like the outside or inside framed trucks on the Heisler and I am really leaning towards the inside one of course the one for sale is an outside. Looking at numerous photos of these engines I have to ask someone that has an outside framed one, Can those frames be removed? From photos they kinda look like they are stuck on. Could I remove the rods then the frames and then put the rods back onto the spoked wheels?? Without alot of mods and potentially wrecking the model ?? 
Looking at a photo of the engine from underneath it looks like the cab and bunker really over hang the rear truck regardless of the outside frame but not so much over hang on the front one. 
The Heisler is a classic old timey engine and I think the spoked wheels add alot to the overall feel of its antiquity. 
Decision decisions. 
Todd


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## Dr. Vulcan (Jun 28, 2009)

Dawgnabbit, 
Just to set the record straight the K37's were not reguaged from standard to narrow. The K37's were built with used boilers from standard guage 2-8-0 locomotives that were mounted on new frame and running gear assemblies supplied by Baldwin. The D&RGW built these locomotives in the Denver Burnham shops in 1928.

The main reason for outside frames was to allow the use of a larger boiler and firebox and to mount them lower in order to improve the stability of the locomotives.
Dr. Vulcan


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## dawgnabbit (Jan 2, 2008)

Dr. Vulcan - Well, Pooh! Now I'm zero for two on this topic. Just about the time I start to THINK I know something about a subject, the folks who DO know what they're talking about have to weigh in and set me right. Anyway, thank you for the history lesson. Good to have the record straight.



Dawg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I've got an obvious bias towars the inside frame Heisler... 



Later, 

K


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

Hi Todd, 

Here's another couple of photos of an outside frame to whet ya appetite.. 






















Posted By cape cod Todd on 31 Mar 2010 04:31 PM 
Can those frames be removed? From photos they kinda look like they are stuck on. Could I remove the rods then the frames and then put the rods back onto the spoked wheels?? Without alot of mods and potentially wrecking the model ?? From my limited experience working on this one, yes you can pull the rods and frames off, but no you can't (easily) turn it into an inside frame truck. The remaining axle stubs extend quite a bit outside the wheels and I remember thinking that I either needed to machine (shorten) and re tap them to take the rod screws or that I needed to order shorter axles. Exactly what stopped me is a bit hazy - it was a year or so ago. I got as far as wondering if B'man sold separate inside frame trucks but didn't pursue it any further - the outside frames kinda grew on me.. 

Someone with more experience may chip in with a method to make this change and I'm all ears if they do!

Cheers
Neil 
PS. Kevin, sorry tried to PM you from another thread but no luck getting it to work. Sorry no website..


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

That is a really nice video Kevin, great angles and sound effects. I think you mihgt need to trim back some of the foliage that was interfering with the train but I like that wild look. Thanks for sharing. Neil that is one rugged looking layout you have there in New Zealand and your photos make a great case for the outside framed version. I doubt that Bachmann has any parts for switching things around and it sounds like it would be too much nerve wracking work cutting into the loco and risk wrecking it to do it myself. If anyone has made the swap please chime in. 
Todd


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 31 Mar 2010 09:19 PM 
I've got an obvious bias towars the inside frame Heisler... 



Later, 

K 

Brilliant video!!!!! The sound makes it 99% convincing!

.....and for those with a love of the Heisler...with grateful thanks to Brian - http://www.brian894x4.com/OregonCoastScenicRR.html

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## coyote97 (Apr 5, 2009)

What a great vid of the heisler-model!
A kind of dinosaur in its lifelike environment!

Well done!

Frank


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