# Buying a used 3/4" Scale Coal Fired Pacific and Tender?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

On my earlier post http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...spx#127458 I stated that I was going to look at a 1/2" scale Pacific.

Now I have seen the loco and the lady told me that it is 3/4" scale and sits on 3 1/2" track.[/b]

To help avoid confusion I am restarting the post here as a 3/4" scale 3.5 gauge home made Pacific that was made by a machinist who died 20 years ago. The lady who owns it knows very little about it but wants more than I am willing and able to pay for it. Still she indicated that she may sell it to me so I am still interested in pursuing information about it.

She had some catalogs by Little Engines (who did not and does not make a 3/4" Pacific) but her mother was there and she said her husband (the grandfather) made 99% of the locomotive including the boiler.

Earlier I had said:


I am out of my depth here but I may be considering buying a used 1/2" Scale Coal Fired Pacific. - IT IS 3/4" SCALE - 3.5" GAUGE![/b]

It is home made by a machinist and the builder is now deceased.

I have no idea what it would be worth or how much was home made or how to tell what condition it is in or what I should be looking for in terms of potential damage.

Apparently it has been stored in a garage for several years and there is no track with it. The builder apparently died before he built a layout to run it on.

I don't know how to test it or even to fire it up or for that matter for sure that it was completed before the guy died (his granddaughter is selling it).

For that matter what would it take to make tracks for it? How difficult and how expensive?

The following seems to fit the description fairly well:


*SPECIFICATIONS*


Length (Engine & Tender) 72 Inches
Height 12 Inches
Weight 140 Pounds
Bore & Stroke 1 3/8 Inches x 1 3/4 Inches
Drive Wheel Diameter 5 Inches
Fuel Coal, Oil or LPG
Boiler 5.5 Inch Diameter

The lady thinks it is coal fired but is not sure. Neither am I. I guess it could even be LPG fired but I think it is coal fired.

Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jerry


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I just found where the owner has been advertising this loco on discoverlivesteam.com for $5,000 but when I went to see it she said the lowest price that she could accept would be $8,000. I told her that was far more than I was willing and able to pay. I only went to see it because she had told someone I know that she was asking $5,000.

http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/fo.../index.htm

If she can't get her story right about the price it makes me question everything else she has said about the locomotive.

The loco looks a lot better (newer) in the pictures than in actual view.

I may still have some interest but I now have a negative attitude toward the seller and where I was going to mention her loco to others now I will not rather than risk someone I know from ending up with a lemon.

Jerry


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, 

If you are in the very large scale live steam hobby, you will find engines like this all the time. The husband passes away and the wife thinks she is sitting on a "goldmine". This loco has been sitting for a while, correct? Unless you want to spend the rest of your life working on this engine ALONE, your funds would be better spent building a NEW one. Lots of headaches here. A 3/4 scale is not a very good riding loco. Even one inch scale is difficult to ride.


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By gary Armitstead on 19 Oct 2009 05:11 PM 
Jerry, 

If you are in the very large scale live steam hobby, you will find engines like this all the time. The husband passes away and the wife thinks she is sitting on a "goldmine". This loco has been sitting for a while, correct? Unless you want to spend the rest of your life working on this engine ALONE, your funds would be better spent building a NEW one. Lots of headaches here. A 3/4 scale is not a very good riding loco. Even one inch scale is difficult to ride. 

Hi Gary,

I think you and others are making a lot of sense. This loco has been sitting for 25 years and there is no one around that (that I know) who would know anything about running it.

For the kind of money it would cost (not counting what it might cost to get it up and running) it is probably best for me to forget it. I can't afford it anyway.

Thanks,

Jerry


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have often been surprised at S/H live steam prices in the US versus the UK. There are some real bargins (especially in the smaller scales) in the UK compared to here. 

Recently, a 4-4-0 sold locally in this scale for under $2500, I think it was in running condition.

I can understand your concerns Jerry.


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry if you saw it you should have been able to tell if it was coal fired or not. Want a 1" scale there is one availbable here tha is coal fired and is a 4-4-2 all hand built and comes with hand built caboose and extra trucks and track. $3000.00. Last fired 5 years ago husband died. Had it been 1 1/2 I'd bought it in a heart beat. Later RJD


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Before you guys "dogpile" on the widow, consider the fact that this engine _is _a live steam engine that was built by her husband. She undoubtedly has no idea what the thing's worth so she asked somebody to try and find out. There are live steamers being offered for $56,000!! They are (of course) _much_ larger and in working condition but she probably is thinking that $8000 is a reasonable asking price and she would be right if the locomotive were in running condition. As is......$5000 would have been a reasonable asking price. $8000? Mmmmmmmm......pass.


----------



## therbert (Sep 18, 2008)

I guess it all boils down to this: Do you want a steamer in a larger scale/gauge than Gauge 1? Where would you run it if you got it running? Is there a live steam club near your home with a 3 1/2" gauge track? If not, do you have the land available and the inclination to build one? Do you have the desire to learn about the locomotive, how to run it, how to maintain it?

Currently, the castings to build a 3/4" scale Pacific will cost you $3500.00 (http://www.friendsmodels.com/produc...p7462.html) plus shipping, if you have the machines to build it and the skills to use the machines. The last loco that I was involved in the construction of, the cost of the castings was less than half of the cost of the finished locomotive, around 40%. No labor costs included, as this is a hobby, and most folks do their own work. 

So, if we use $3500 as the cost of the castings, the finished loco, if you did the work yourself, would cost about $8750 in materials, by the time you are finished, we'll just say, three years later. Using that figure, and assuming you want this locomotive, you will have somewhere to run it, and it is complete, just needs some restoration and TLC, $5000 is not at all a bad price. Neither is $8000, although I probably wouldn't pay that much for it.

How much is a new, Gauge 1 live steam loco from Accucraft? I paid $2000 for my little S-12. A K-36 lists for $4750, is much smaller, and you can't ride behind it.

It's all in your perspective. Everyone gets to decide what something is worth to them.


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 19 Oct 2009 09:00 PM 
Before you guys "dogpile" on the widow, consider the fact that this engine _is _a live steam engine that was built by her husband. She undoubtedly has no idea what the thing's worth so she asked somebody to try and find out. There are live steamers being offered for $56,000!! They are (of course) _much_ larger and in working condition but she probably is thinking that $8000 is a reasonable asking price and she would be right if the locomotive were in running condition. As is......$5000 would have been a reasonable asking price. $8000? Mmmmmmmm......pass.


Hi Steve,

Where I have a problem with the granddaughter (not the widow) is that she said on her ad: 

Has been sitting in my mother's house for 25 years. Has not been tested during that time and needs professional care and restoration. No one in family now is qualified to deal with this and I am seeking a buyer for $5,000

If she wanted to know its approximate value all she had to do (as I did) was to look around the very website that she placed her ad on. There is nothing similar for $5,000 much less $8,000. The closest comparison of a bigger and better locomotive was $3,800. If her loco ran and had been tested 6 years ago I would have paid her $3,800 for it only to get home and wonder what the heck I would do with it with no track and no practical way to do anything with it. I'm glad I did not know about the Northern as I would probably be on my way to Florida to pick it up.

I heard three different versions of where it had been stored from 4 years to 20 years to 25 years.

Then when I go to her house after she told a friend she was asking 5,000 and I asked her what the least she would accept if I bought it AS IS with NO GUARANTEE of anything (bearing in mind I know virtually nothing about such an engine and there is at least one line from the tender broken) she told me the least she could accept was $8,000 while her own ad on the internet right now is asking for $5,000. 

On the same website as she is running her ad there is a much nicer looking and larger 4-8-4 NORTHERN that had been run and tested 6 years ago and sold for only $3,800 

http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/fo.../index.htm

that makes the minimum she quoted me of $8,000 unreasonable and puts further dealing with her out of the question for me.

I went to look at what I thought was a running steam engine that had been stored for 4 years with an asking price of $5,000 only to find an inoperable engine that has been sitting somewhere for over 25 years with a minimum price of $8,000.

Her ad also stated completed in the 1970s which means that the loco is probably over 30 years old.

This lady is not dumb. She is a heck of a lot more knowledgeable about what she is selling (she has had 25+ years to educate herself about it) than I am about what I was thinking about buying. I don't go to Las Vegas to learn how to play poker.

Actually it has worked out for the best as I don't have $5,000 I can afford to spend (I would have to sell a BUNCH of stuff to pay for it) and the fact is that I don't know what the heck I would/could have done with it if I had bought it.

Thanks to everyone for their help. I think it is time for me to put this idea to rest and I will phone her to let her know that I am not a prospective buyer for this loco.

All in all this has been a very educational experience and the good news is that it only cost me half a tank of gas to discover that I was not going to buy anything.

Maybe this experience will inspire me to bring out the poor (relatively) little (relatively) old Aristo LS Mikado and play with it. I think I have discovered that the only practical choices for me with live steam would be either 7 1/2" gauge (WAY out of my price range) or my 1:29 Mike. Hopefully no one will phone me to tell me they know where I can get a 7 1/2" gauge Big Boy with six passenger coaches and 1,000 feet of track for $5,000.























Jerry


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,

Ride on 7.5" gauge trains don't have to be expensive. My buddy Pete Eggink has built a ride on railroad for half of what you were willing to pay for that used live steamer. Battery powered locomotive. Easy to operate throttle, but most of all FUN TO RIDE!

http://www.geocities.com/eggink806/index.html

Later,

Mark


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By therbert on 20 Oct 2009 07:23 AM 
I guess it all boils down to this: Do you want a steamer in a larger scale/gauge than Gauge 1? Where would you run it if you got it running? Is there a live steam club near your home with a 3 1/2" gauge track? If not, do you have the land available and the inclination to build one? Do you have the desire to learn about the locomotive, how to run it, how to maintain it?

Currently, the castings to build a 3/4" scale Pacific will cost you $3500.00 (http://www.friendsmodels.com/produc...p7462.html) plus shipping, if you have the machines to build it and the skills to use the machines. The last loco that I was involved in the construction of, the cost of the castings was less than half of the cost of the finished locomotive, around 40%. No labor costs included, as this is a hobby, and most folks do their own work. 

So, if we use $3500 as the cost of the castings, the finished loco, if you did the work yourself, would cost about $8750 in materials, by the time you are finished, we'll just say, three years later. Using that figure, and assuming you want this locomotive, you will have somewhere to run it, and it is complete, just needs some restoration and TLC, $5000 is not at all a bad price. Neither is $8000, although I probably wouldn't pay that much for it.

How much is a new, Gauge 1 live steam loco from Accucraft? I paid $2000 for my little S-12. A K-36 lists for $4750, is much smaller, and you can't ride behind it.

It's all in your perspective. Everyone gets to decide what something is worth to them.


Hi Tom,

I totally agree with everything you said. I have tremendous respect for the machinist who built this locomotive and if I had similar skills and access to the machinery he must have had and if I had a strong interest in this gauge of live steam I probably could have found some way to buy her locomotive.

The difference is the machinist is dead, the locomotive cost the granddaughter nothing (of course it is a valued inheritance but that ads nothing to resale value) and neither she nor I have the skills (or possibly necessary equipment) to help me get the locomotive running again.

Do you want a steamer in a larger scale/gauge than Gauge 1? 

I saw videos of fantastic 7 1/2" gauge live steamers but immediately realized they are way beyond my financial means so the answer would have to be No. 
At 6' 5" tall and 300 lbs weight I doubt that I would be riding on anything smaller than 7 1/2" gauge.









Where would you run it if you got it running? 

I have 7 acres of land but much of it is not flat and the cost of track, the expense of leveling it (trestles or High Rail - OMG) and the work to build/lay it would be prohibitive 

Is there a live steam club near your home with a 3 1/2" gauge track? 
As far as I can tell there are none within hundreds of miles


do you have the land available 

Yes

and the inclination to build one? 

No

Do you have the desire to learn about the locomotive, how to run it, how to maintain it?

Obviously you know me well because the answers are:

Curiosity about the locomotive yes but desire put much effort into it - NO

Curiosity about how to run it yes but desire to put a lot of effort into learning how to run it - NO

Acceptance of the need to maintain it yes but desire to put a lot of work into doing it - NO. 

Your questions address the situation perfectly. 
The simple truth is that the true value of her locomotive is totally immaterial to me. The only value that applies to me is the value it might have to me and with the above answers it is obvious that my personal value is far lower than the effort to build it should justify. 

She is in a situation of either finding someone who values it as you do or settling for selling it for far less to someone who has a far lower personal value for such an item.

The third option may be that a bargain hunter who knows the market may buy it at a steal and resell it at a significant profit.

I have a firm personal rule about buying from widows etc. - I NEVER try to negotiate a price. I either accept the price they quote to everyone or I walk away. I have no desire to take advantage of anyone. That is why I will simply tell her that I am not interested rather than to make any attempt to get her to lower her price. My problem with her is that if I had contacted her via her ad on the internet her price would have been $3,000 less than it was after I had made the effort to go and see it (she telephoned me - I did not contact her). If she now lowers her price I will still pass because her initial price to me was higher than her price to everyone on the internet.

Also my attitude might be a bit different if it was a widow rather than a granddaughter I was dealing with. The widow was there but was not involved in the discussion and the monies would go not to the widow but to the granddaughter (our wives contribute in one way or another to support our hobbies but our grandchildren do not - at least not when they know nothing about our hobbies). This loco is just something that has been sitting on a shelf for 25+ years.

Jerry


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 20 Oct 2009 08:29 AM 
Jerry,

Ride on 7.5" gauge trains don't have to be expensive. My buddy Pete Eggink has built a ride on railroad for half of what you were willing to pay for that used live steamer. Battery powered locomotive. Easy to operate throttle, but most of all FUN TO RIDE!

http://www.geocities.com/eggink806/index.html

Later,

Mark


Hi Mark,

That is something I might have considered years ago when our kids or grandkids (and I) were far younger, more agile and more energetic.

I have a friend who built a nice ride on railroad that runs for several miles. Whenever I go there and ride one of his trains the first thing that comes to my mind is the tremendous amount of money and work he must have put into it and, just as important, all that ******* grass etc. that someone must have to keep cleared from the tracks.

Perhaps what killed any thought of a ride on train running through the woods here was when I realized the importance of level track and what grades do to trains. Many of my best ideas are the ones I am smart enough to forget all about.

This loco (the Pacific) was just a knee-jerk reaction to a phone call from a friend telling me about a real live steam ride on locomotive that was for sale.

I love live steam - I just don't love it enough to put any work into it. Live Steam to me is like a swimming pool - for me they are perhaps best when a friend or neighbor owns it and invites me over to share it with him. 

A ride on train that did not have a real live steam locomotive pulling it would just not have much personal appeal to me to own.

Regards,

Jerry


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

As I posted to Jerry's other thread there is a nice 1inch scale coal fired steamer for sale about 6 miles down the road from me. It's a 4-4-2 and all hand built. Comes with hand built caboose and extra trucks for building more cars and some Aluminum track all for $3000.00 Last ran about 5 years ago. Wife selling do to his death. Interested let me know. I looked at it hoping it was 1 1/2 scale which I would have bout it in a heart beat to go with other locos and cars we have. Later RJD


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jerry, 
I'm curious, did you mention her ad to her? Her expression might have made your day! 

From what I've gathered here is LS envolves a lot of set up for relatively short runs. I'd suggest you get your live steam experience with that Aristo Mike...you already have plenty of track to run it. 

John


----------



## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Good thing that Northern is already sold, my wallet would have just got a whole lot lighter if I had seen that earlier!


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 20 Oct 2009 10:43 AM 
Jerry, 
I'm curious, did you mention her ad to her? Her expression might have made your day! 

From what I've gathered here is LS envolves a lot of set up for relatively short runs. I'd suggest you get your live steam experience with that Aristo Mike...you already have plenty of track to run it. 

John 

Hi John,

No. I just phoned her and told her that I could not afford it and I would not know how to run it. She seemed to immediately know that there was no point in pursuing the issue. This way she may wonder if I did or did not see her ad and the next potential buyer might get a better reception. I have no hard feelings and I wish her luck but I would not recommend her to any friends because I would wonder what surprises might be in store for them.

You are right about the Aristo Mike. As little as I run it I'd have to be crazy to even consider spending thousands on a much bigger loco that would probably never be run.

Perhaps it has something to do with aging in that we don't want to admit to ourselves that our days of playing with toy trains are numbered and the numbers are falling from double digits to single digits. In a few months I will be having knee replacement surgery which should be telling me something or at least I should be listening to what my body is trying to tell me.

Jerry


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By rwjenkins on 20 Oct 2009 10:50 AM 
Good thing that Northern is already sold, my wallet would have just got a whole lot lighter if I had seen that earlier! 

If it had not been sold I never would have mentioned it until after it was in my driveway.







Fortunately for me I found it under SOLD rather than under FOR SALE.

Since I could never afford







a Big Boy







or a Challenger





















my first choices would be:

1. Northern (the line forms behind me)








2. Hudson








3. Pacific or other large mainline loco









Cheers,

Jerry


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

For those who may think that 3/4" scale is too small to ride behind, I present _Black Bart_, an LBSC coal fired 0-4-0 _Juliette _that was modified to look like an open cab _Tich. _This is my father riding behind it. _Bart_ took five years to complete and was the first live steamer that my father completed. The track is an elevated loop that was in my father's backyard in Golden, CO. The engine is _powerful_ and pulls a grown man around the track at a _dangerous_ clip (in fact, we were never able to determine it's maximum speed.) The point is, an 0-4-0 _Tich _switcher is the smallest of the 3/4" live steamers and it is about 2/3rds the size of Dad's _Juliette_. It is more than enough for a 300 lb. guy and Pacifics in 1" scale on 4 3/4" gauge track are easily capable of multiple passenger operation!


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, 

That's a cool little engine! Cool picture of your Dad. Ah! The power of steam.


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

My first experience with live steam was when my dad brought my sister and me over to his friend Jack Addams' house. Jack was a live steamer from way back and had a beautiful 1" scale engine (2-6-0 Mogul I think) and there was this track on the ground in 4 3/4" gauge. I honestly think that we had more fun that day than any other I can remember! There is something about getting behind the cab of a coal fired live steamer, smelling the smoke, cracking open the throttle and taking her out that just leaves an indelible impression on oneself!


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Steve,

I can see how having a live steam engine that actually carries one around (especially a coal fired one) would be something to treasure and remember.

It is nice that your family enjoyed it together.

Jerry


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, _Bart_ is now in a place of honor downstairs in my family room. The last thing that Dad and I did together in his shop was to dismantle _Bart_ and perform a hydrotest on the boiler. We then reassembled her but have not as yet fired her up. _Invicta_ is still at my stepmother's place as she wants my sister to have it. The rest were in various stages of assembly (or disassembly!) Good memories...


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, nice combination of two LBSC designs. Probably the best of all worlds, the added heft would be even better than the larger boiler Tich and I always liked that cab design.


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I had forgotten about this loco but today I was reading "Arkansas Railroader" the monthly magazine of our railroad club (not model railroad) and happened to notice an ad about the same locomotive "looking to either donate or sell..." which made me wonder if she had dropped the price so I checked back on her internet listing and she had changed it - she went UP.

"Will sell today for $12,000; have had an offer of $7,500 and will entertain other offers." She does not make any sense to me. First she was going to donate it, then she offered to sell it for $5,000 then she claims to have an offer for $7,500 and now she wants $12,000. 

That worked out great for me as I can now go back to forgetting about this loco.

I happened to run across this on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/LIVE-STEAM-LOCO...3a54684a1c

"appears to be a 3.5" gauge" Winning bid: *US $660.99*

I think I will stick with what I know - large scale.

Jerry


----------

