# Do you, or Do you not?



## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you, or do you not, complain about something you get an it's not right. Like ball bearing wheels that roll like a brick, or maybe a engine that falls apart before you can run it? Or do you just smile and say to yourself money well spent?


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Don, Now that's a loaded question if I ever saw one./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif 
I don't know if I start out complaining. It's more of a "bringing it to customer services attention or a more vocal Ehemmmmmm! It doesn't turn into complainin' until I perceive that I'm being ignored or they just can't get thing correct through either not listening or just plain old fashioned incompitence./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/satisfied.gif

But to answer it......... Shonufff. Like most here I think would. That is unless the complainin' is gonna be more effort that just throwing some glue or bending a tab that was missed would be. Then there would be how boastful the company was about their customer service of course can't forget the money paid for something (Higher dollars = higher expectations of quality and service) plays into the picture.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Depends how severe the fault is. If it's something I can fix with no trouble, I'll fix it. If it's something dreadful, the mfr would probably like to see it 'cause they don't like making trash any more than we like buying it.


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## jwvine29 (Jan 2, 2008)

Trains, You know what the answer to your own question is.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I do not complain. My wife does that for me. Here in the UK Solicitors practice CIVIL law. My lovely wife is a Solicitor in both English and Scottish Law and is a qualified Barrister in Scottish Law. You can actually FEEL the other end of the telephone *shrivel* at the words, 

"Are you familar with The Sale of Goods Act 1893 part 3 paragraph 9 in respect to Goods of Merchandisable Quality?"

regards

ralph


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Depends, who's fault is it? 

If I buy something thats defective at the onset, someones going to hear about it/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif
 
If its something I built and screwed the pooch on, well, no way, cause I _*know*_ where the fault lies.../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Trains on 01/25/2008 6:49 AM
Do you, or do you not, complain about something you get an it's not right. . .
Extremely high shipping costs to here preclude my returning anything unless it would be severely damaged, which has never happened. In fact,  so far in my dozen plus years in this hobby I have never had a problem with anything I have received from any of the suppliers.  The only time I ever ship anything out is for installation of sound and battery receiver, although usually I have such units sent directly to the installer first. 

--Ron in CC, Alaska


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

To quote Bender from "The Breakfast Club"

"Its an imperfect world.  Screws fall out all the time."

I've yet to find that bullet proof train.  Mostly, they work out of the box.  So yes, I do expect that models will work without modification.  To your loaded question, I believe that all new products will have teething issues.  Ever own a Volkswagen?  I'm on my 3rd.  As a general rule of thumb, its best not to be the first owner on the block.  (Although I'd break my own rule to own a new Audi R8 with the V-12 Diesel that keeps winning LeManns)

OR better yet, to quote Anton Ego in "Ratatouille"

*Anton Ego*: In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. "


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Well.
 
First off I have a problem with the idea of imperfections being exceptable due to the fact that any item is a first generation!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif

When you purchase an item and there is a firm entrance price. The manufactur expects to get the price they have set and or is asking...they expect that!   /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/plain.gif                 Or you don't walk out of the store with that item!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/pinch.gif

I feel since they expect that...I expect to get what I have paid for!   Without any inherant production problems!  Barring any "lemons" that seem to be produced once and awhile!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/pinch.gif

That being said......manufactures always rush to get a new anything onto the consumer markets that will generate "NEW" revenue, that was not previously realized!  THAT IS THE PROBLEM!!!!!!
What it takes to produce any given item, or market it or what ever is not my concern, and I will not be held responsible for that..if they produce it they have taken on the responsibility to deliver to myself an item that they feel they can charge for...and I expect the quality that was promised by plunking down my hard earned cash for the asking price!! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/satisfied.gif

These problems are all due to the manufacturer forgoing the proper testing, evaluation time needed to rule out any of the potential problems with any new product! Needing to pay for the production fees and or what ever overhead was incured! _*(which is sometimes deadly..can anyone say Pinto, Corvair, Celebrex)/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/pinch.gif
*_
Dave Goodson has been kind enough to pioneer fixing the the inherant design problems with the new K.....what should really be happening is that Bachmann should have on their payroll a person like Dave, if NOT Dave that is cracker jack with problem solving these types of issues on their payroll to do just that....problem solve and evaluate in the "REAL" world, prior to release!!
Instead of not listening to him when he speaks....some people are just born to lead in ANY given area! 

I for one spend money like a drunk'in salior on trains.....I do not purchase another item manufactured by a company that I have had problems with...Dan Moore can ya say "Boat Anchor"...that company will NEVER get anymore of my money...I don't care how cool there engines look!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/pinch.gif

This hobby is expensive....that also being said, I buy where I get the most bang for my buck...if I can get it cheaper WITH shipping clear accross the country then I can get it here in my own back yard...I will  and do!  I can't see paying an EXTRA $40-$80 just to support the local dealers so they can take that extra vacation!  Sorry but NO!!!!! (_do't care about their overhead, online will do away with store fronts in the future anyways!)/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif
_
I do without certain things so I CAN buy my trains!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif

Bottom line is if manufactures expect the price that they have set.........I expect to recieve what I have payed for!   That is a no-brainer!!!!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/plain.gif

This might seem hard nosed, but I want what I want...and will pay what I have to pay to have what I want!   /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif
I just better get what I paid for!  Or there will be **** to pay, as I am NOT shy...I likes' a good fight...once and awhile!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/plain.gif/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/pinch.gif/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif

Bubba


Geeez!           You are correct...sorry, but I get flamed up on occasion!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif


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## OzarkRR (Jan 2, 2008)

As long as it is somthing simple and I can fix it I do so. If it is major then I will complain and request repair or replacement. When you have to buy on the internet and depend on the brown or white truck for delivery opening the box is always a hold your breath moment.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

*G R I P E F E S T   2 0 0 8 !

/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif

*-Brian


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

living in a country, where there is NO modelrailroad club, where to my knowledge has been imported a total of about a dozen trainsets in 20 years(bachmann and playmobil) by the half dozen of toy shops - I take what i get. in any shape. period.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

If you are going to pay $300 to $3500 or more for a locomotive(or anything), it better work right out of the box! You should not have to do "little" fixes yourself just to get it to run or to repair somthing broken!! Would you tweak or repair your new HDTV, or your brand new PC, or your new car, or........, by gluing parts back on or because the knobs fall off. or whatever!! I don't think so. If you are willing to fix stuff please let me know, I have a lot of broken stuff I'd like to sell you. Smiley face here. No matter how much I want somthing I never rush to buy the first one out, I wait for the manufacturer to get it right then I buy. If they don't get it right I will never buy the item.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 01/25/2008 7:28 AM
Depends how severe the fault is. If it's something I can fix with no trouble, I'll fix it. If it's something dreadful, the mfr would probably like to see it 'cause they don't like making trash any more than we like buying it.


i was going to answer this question, but i think i'll keep my mouth SHUT.....
Nick/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I do, but it is often pointless. 
The shill cry of "Bashing! Bashing!" reduces my desire to even mention often obvious problems. 
I have worked with one manufacturer for 11 years, and things get better almost every time. 
But now, more than ever, the cry of "Bashing!" is being replaced by "paid!" or some other such rot. 
****, if I got paid for all the time it takes to sort these out, I'd have retired years ago! 
Do I put up with it? 
If I feel it is salvageable, yes. 
If not, no. 
I have never, ever returned a unit to the manufacturer for warranty. 
In all scales. I will figure out a way to fix it, publish the fix, and sit back while clueless individuals take pot-shots at me. 
It has long-since ceased to be "fun".


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

*G R I P E F E S T   2 0 0 8 !










*-Brian


Brian, Bachmann were warned weeks ago that this was going to be a PR disaster.

Yet to have proper company authorised fixes are the chuff problem.  
Which they had better do something about pretty quick smart, or the poop will hit the fan again.

.......and:

Yet to fully surface are the problems with DCC pnp compatibility.
As I understand it, and I could be wrong of course, there is only one DCC decoder that is actually Plug'n'Play.  QSI.  The Digitrax DG583AR will not work without bending a pin out of the way.
That problem alone will maybe be as bad as the other two problem areas put together.

Fortunately for us battery R/C guys, it looks like the jigger will almost work as planned.

BTW.  the picture in my avatar in no way reflects my true character./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif


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## Wendell Hanks (Jan 2, 2008)

Report a problem? 
This site is evidence of such activity. 
HOWEVER, the difficulty with a single reporting is there will follow reports of NO problems. Now, a defense of the negative event can become the thread vs. discovery of the remedy for that particular event.


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## CJGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

.....you could always sell the unit and buy some diesels.... HAHAHAA!


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 01/25/2008 5:51 PM
*G R I P E F E S T   2 0 0 8 !










*-Brian


Brian, Bachmann were warned weeks ago that this was going to be a PR disaster.



Tony, I did not realize this thread was specifically geared towards Bachmann. Gripe away! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif

-Brian


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By altterrain on 01/26/2008 12:00 AM
 
  I did not realize this thread was specifically geared towards Bachmann. Gripe away! 

-Brian
Nor did I. Sometimes it_ seems_ as if the Bachmann K-27 is all the ONLY topic some people will talk about on this forum _lately_, no matter _how_ a particular thread might have started. What gives? Nevermind.  I'll probably be sorry I ever asked.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony, I did not realize this thread was specifically geared towards Bachmann. Gripe away! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif

-Brian


My apologies to the forum.
You are quite correct.
I should have said:
"As an example Bachmann were ......."


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmm..I expect problems with anything new except consumer electronics.
New vehicles always go back to the dealer for warranty work.
New PC's always get tweaked.
New houses are another problem.
New trains always have problems and that will continue as long as we the user's  keep buying cheap imported trains..after all we are the ones that demanded cheap trains and the manufacturers listened..we told them with our wallets../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif

Let's see..the LGB German made Mikado for $1,000.00 or the cheap Aristo China built version for $250.00??


That being said I buy my trains from a good reputable dealer because I know that something will need to be fixed and I fix my own... working with a dealer will speed up the parts replacement...some manufacturers have a 12 week turn around on repairs and I won't wait that long.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 01/25/2008 11:43 AM
living in a country, where there is NO modelrailroad club, where to my knowledge has been imported a total of about a dozen trainsets in 20 years(bachmann and playmobil) by the half dozen of toy shops - I take what i get. in any shape. period.

What country might THAT be? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Skip (Jan 2, 2008)

While I'm as guilty as the next guy of bitching about defective goods, I do understand, very well, the cost of doing business, in any market. I think several things come into play in the specialist hobby area (like any specialized product group). Companies tend to want to rush the product into the marketplace because they have very high upfront costs to recover - for small businesses, this can be the difference between keeping the doors open, and being buried before the product even finds its market. That said, the overwhelming problem seems to be inadequate product testing with production units, as opposed to pre-prod models. This is a manufacturing catch-22 - once production is tooled up, its expensive to hold the line/process while you pound the test units. Equally, engineering often isn't met properly with manufacturing competency (and I believe is likely behind the K-27 problem). 

Most of the current manufacturers are held hostage by the economies of production - the units are built in China because the manufacturing flexibility and cost efficiencies there allow the the product to be marketed in a western market at a price point that will actually allow them to be sold. You couldn't produce the K-27, or any of the advanced locos in the western manufacturing world and be able to sell them - they'd be just way too expensive for the market. As a sterling example, the CFs illustrate this point precisely - those of you who can afford to buy one of these, have earned your money in an economy that allows you to afford the sticker price - but you are not the market that keeps the manufacturer's doors open - you are the beneficiary of the market that does, geared to lower cost products that market can actually afford to buy in the volumes needed to pay the freight. 

The core of many of these problems is how the companies stick handle the problems. Bachmann has had some major hiccups bringing the Spectrum line to market, mostly due to insufficient testing of production units, and lack of QC at the factory. Aristo has issues, Accucraft has issues etc, mostly because these companies don't own the factories. What looked good on the table isn't quite what's coming out of the factories. 

Nobody like to receive a defective product - what makes or breaks a company is what it does about it - I'm still waiting for Accucraft to answer two of my emails. I'm NOT going to make a long distance transcontinental phone call to obtain service from a company that publically advertizes an email address and then never answers it. Cliff is the glue that holds Accucraft together - if he goes, Accucraft will fold like a cheap tent. What poor customer relations does is chokes a company's future off. I won't buy a K27, and I'm wary of any further Spectrum steam trains - The 2 truck shay has been good, but not without problems due to manufacture. The Connie had broken trucks out of the box, but Bachmann stepped up and replaced them ASAP (even as they billed me for shipping - good luck with that - I didn't bill them for the repair...). I'm re-thinking my future with Accucraft mostly due to the communication and illegal marketing policies, not because I'm a bit disappointed with one of their engines. 

But some of the blame lies here, too. Enthusiast websites like MLS pump people up to demand product, because of that very enthusiasm. This leads manufacturers to rush product to market because of perceived demand pressure. Some of you guys are just as guilty of bitching about delays to market as you are about QC issues when it gets here. You can't suck and blow at the same time. 

The short answer is enjoy it while you can - Offshore cost of manufacture is climbing - while NC machining is getting better too, there is a crossover where hand and machine assembly intersect - you may find the future may end the hobby of live steam on a mass produced basis by being priced out of existence, both in cost of manufacture, and in the necessary real estate to run it.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Skip on 01/26/2008 8:09 AM
. . . Companies tend to want to rush the product into the marketplace because they have very high upfront costs to recover - for small businesses, this can be the difference between keeping the doors open, and being buried before the product even finds its market. That said, the overwhelming problem seems to be inadequate product testing with production units, as opposed to pre-prod models. . .

Nobody like to receive a defective product - what makes or breaks a company is what it does about it . . . 

But some of the blame lies here, too. *Enthusiast websites like MLS pump people up to demand product, because of that very enthusiasm. *This leads manufacturers to rush product to market because of perceived demand pressure. Some of you guys are just as guilty of bitching about delays to market as you are about QC issues when it gets here. You can't suck and blow at the same time.
Excellent analysis.  We here in Alaska are so used to being at the end of a very slow and costly line, that we tend to complain less (except about the high shipping costs, of course) about the condition of what we receive. On the other hand, a local large-scale train hobby shop wouldn't stand a chance up here due to economies of scale, but it does appear to me that a large part of the problem is that those of you stateside are obtaining your products mail-order where you have no chance to inspect the product in advance, same as us, when you often have other (if somewhat more costly) options. 

--Ron in Alaska


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

My answer is "it depends"..... Did I have realistic expectations? Too many people don't anymore. They seem to expect a brand new Lexus when they paid for a clapped out Rambler....  or to put it in train terms, they want LGB quality and durability for a Scientific Toys price.

Then again, there was a sign I saw in a machine shop a while back, it said "You can have it GOOD. You can have it FAST. You can have it INEXPENSIVE....Pick any two"  I think it doesn't really help when the manufacturers put out teasers a couple years in advance of production, because then guys (just like little kids) clamour that they want it "NOOOOOOWWW!!!!"...and then stuff sometimes gets pushed to market before it is really ready. And then you get all these first run problems. 

yust my 2c. some may want change


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 01/26/2008 5:05 PM
My answer is "it depends"..... Did I have realistic expectations? Too many people don't anymore. They seem to expect a brand new Lexus when they paid for a clapped out Rambler....  or to put it in train terms, they want LGB quality and durability for a Scientific Toys price.

MIk, 
That is just what a lot of manufacturers seem to promise.  So why wouldn't the consumer be entitled to expect just such products?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

could you repeat the question please?????


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2008)

@tacfoley, 

Posted By kormsen on 01/25/2008 11:43 AM 
living in a country, where there is NO modelrailroad club, where to my knowledge has been imported a total of about a dozen trainsets in 20 years(bachmann and playmobil) by the half dozen of toy shops - I take what i get. in any shape. period. 

What country might THAT be?


That's Paraguay. in the middle of southamerica, a third of alaska in size, 5 millions of inhabitants, 40 to 50 $ shipping costs for a G-scale wagon from the US and the only hobbyshop ever existing, closed in 1987, because he had less than a dozen regular customers. 

korm 

ps: but that teaches to use every scrap for modelling...


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