# Scratch built loco weight



## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

So I was ready a thread on the beginners forum about pulling power of locos being directly connected to their weight. This makes sense but begs the question what should my loco weight.

I am building my own version of the Baldwin 2-6-0 that David Fletcher did on the 2001 masters class. This is entirely my own creation (though I am pulling heavily from that class for inspiration and detailing) and I have been trying to figure out where and how much weight to put in it. It is a very open design. It started life as a 4-6-0 Bachmann but I am only using the part of the chassis from the middle driver back. The boiler is small (1 1/4 PVC) the area between the front and middle driver is open frame to resemble the real thing. The boiler is the back bone of the whole thing tying it all together structurally. 

I say all this because I didn't allow myself much place for weight. I have about a 30 pounds of lead at my disposal and will use lead for its weight to volume ratio. I thought about making a half pipe block of lead that can then be inserted in the boiler??? I have even thought about a lead sheet or steel plate for the floor of the cab. Add weight in the domes, maybe?

How much should this little 2-6-0 weight. I doubt I will ever run more than 10-15 cars behind it as the layout will be small and grades somewhat steep if I get my way and can get one track above the other for a trestle crossing. Not sure that is possible in the room I have. 

I have included a picture of what I have so far. Now don't beat me up to bad as this is my first large scale build. I have done a few HO projects but this is my first ground floor up project. I would love any and all comments other than throw it in the trash and start over . 

Also one part of this that is bugging me is the frame in front of the front driver. It is to abrupt and does not end naturally. Can someone tell me or show me a picture of what a loco frame looks like forward of the front driver. Keep in mind I have to have the front truck up there and have room to pivot. I was thinkin 45 degree up to the piece that is the boiler support and cylinder attachment thing. Aesthetically this part is all wrong in my opinion the boiler is to far forward causing the frame to be stretched (read to much frame forward of the front driver. At this stage of the game I don't want to disassemble the whole thing and move it back. I am going to live with it I think. 

Devon


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

6-8 cars is what that little loco should handle on a flat track. When real trains encountered too steep a climb they would Double the Hill, split the train and take it up in 2 trips...
You can also damage your loco with too much weight. I feel a full boiler would do.
John


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Totalwrecker said:


> 6-8 cars is what that little loco should handle on a flat track. When real trains encountered too steep a climb they would Double the Hill, split the train and take it up in 2 trips...
> You can also damage your loco with too much weight. I feel a full boiler would do.
> John


John,
the 6-8 car number is far more prototypical for my railroad. I can't think of a picture of this railroad that is more than 5. The only picture we have of the #3 (that's what this loco is) shows the longest train I have seen for this railroad and it is the loco and tender, two box cars, a converted box car caboose and two coaches. And I don't think this was typical as it is a posed photo with everyone in there Sunday best. Usually pictures are of a mixed train of one coach, one caboose (box car convert, they had four as far as we know), and a couple freight cars. 

So I said 10-15, I was optimistic, if its five or six it will be more correct.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Devon,


> How much should this little 2-6-0 weigh


 The rule of thumb is to load it up until the drivers refuse to slip if you apply full power and hold it from moving. However, that's a bit drastic and not for scratch builders!

The original ten-wheeler, whose chassis you are using, has a big lump of iron in the boiler over the drivers. I just weighed mine, and it hit more than 32 ounces on my postal scale. So it is probably 40 ounces, or 2+ lbs.
I would use that as a guide - put 32 oz of lead in the boiler.



> the frame in front of the front driver


 The main frames are usually continued forward to the pilot beam and support the boiler and smokebox, sometimes with a curved cut-out over the pilot truck for the wheels. 
Your style of loco probably just had a straight extension from the cylinders forward. (Take a look at the bit of the ten-wheeler you removed.) The cylinders hide the transition from deep main frame to shallow forward frame.

I have some baldwin drawings, but let me see if I can find a demonstrative photo. This website has a drawing:
http://www.gouldstudios.com/loco_RGS.html 

Kevin ("East Broad Top" on MLS) did a similar mogul by chopping the Bachmann model. Full details on his blog at 
http://tuscarorarailroad.blogspot.com/2012/05/tuscarora-railroad-4.html or you can PM him for more info.
Here's the side view:













> the boiler is to far forward


Probably. The boiler without the smokebox (i.e. the bit with water in it) will usually be set over the driving wheels, as you can see from the photo above. (The firebox extends back into the cab, over he rear wheels.)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The scale weight has proven to work well.

Take the prototype weight and divide by the cube of the scale. Works. I use it for all my locos.

Caveat: locos with weak drivetrains should have weight added with caution.

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

A while back I measured the pulling power, drawbar pull, of a dozen or so of my engines. On average the engine should pull about 1/3 of its weight. Some were a little lower and some were a little higher. Much to my surprise traction tires only increased the tractive effort by a few percent.

Too much weight in the engine will likely shorten the life of the motor and drive train gears. The LGB moguls are well known as poor pullers. I added weight to mine for better traction. It wasn't long before I was regularly replacing the idler gears. I took out the extra weight and all is well again. I just can't pull longer trains.

Remember that on the flat it is not the actual weight of the train, but the drag the engine pulls, friction in the wheels and journals. As the grade increases the actual weight of the train comes into play.

I used a fisherman's scale to measure the pull of the engine and train.

Chuck


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

d_sinsley said:


> John,
> the 6-8 car number is far more prototypical for my railroad. I can't think of a picture of this railroad that is more than 5. The only picture we have of the #3 (that's what this loco is) shows the longest train I have seen for this railroad and it is the loco and tender, two box cars, a converted box car caboose and two coaches. And I don't think this was typical as it is a posed photo with everyone in there Sunday best. Usually pictures are of a mixed train of one coach, one caboose (box car convert, they had four as far as we know), and a couple freight cars.
> 
> So I said 10-15, I was optimistic, if its five or six it will be more correct.


Good luck to you. I'll not waste time or effort on pipe dreams. Not real amused by your rivet comment nor set up questions. Oh you know better?
From printed wheels to Bachmann wheels? What's up with that?

Keep having fun.
John


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

After having climbed under the Quincy & Torch Lake #1, a Baldwin 2-6-0, to take pictures and measurements of the frame, several times, I can tell you that the frame extends forward from the front driver axle area to the cylinder casting and ends there. The frame has an extension that is bolted to both the main frame and the cylinder casting, and then extends forward to the front beam. Once I figure out which box my information and pictures are in, I can put up a picture or two of how the frame is configured. The #1 is a bit newer design than the engine that you're building, the firebox is over the 3rd driver instead of between the 2nd and 3rd drivers, so it might not be quite the same, but the #1 was built in the late 1800s, so it can't be too far off.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Thanks for the input guys. I will take all under advisement. And I do not think I will be happy unless I move the boiler backward and shorten the frame. Also after looking at your guys examples plus a few images on google. David Fletcher did a drawing that he sent me of this loco in its Utah and Northern configuration. Mine is an ex Utah and Northern loco so I have been using it for a guide. I scaled the drawing to 1:1 so I can pull real measurements from it and my cab is to long. I was going of the cab dimensions from the 2001 Masters class but it is longer than the drawing to fit the multipurpose nature of the class. I will shrink the cab to match the drawing and that will suck the boiler back. Now's the time to do it. It will loo better and make other detailing aspects more correct. Right now my crossheads will be to long. So I will suck it up and shorten it. I think also I will not put a cross piece at the front of the main frame and instead insert the rails into the smoke box support. That will strengthen that joint which I have concern about anyway. Also I will cut the lower frame just behind the front of the front axel and 45 it up to the main frame. 

This will accomplish a lot for a minimal amount of effort. It will look better, line everything up better, and give added support. 

And I have t say geez thanks for sending me to Kevin's blog. I have been conversing with him on another project. Looking at his Mogul and the amazing detail work I realize I need to step up my game. Another part I am not happy with is my pathetic attempt at the equalization bar and spring between the 2 and third drivers. It looks cheesy. Kevin's is nice. That will be redone. 

Part of my goal with this project is make as many of the parts as I can from scratch. I know there is a trade off in detail but its a personal satisfaction thing. Things like blots I am doing out of hex styrene instead of castings, my rivets are sewing pins, etc. But looking at his models have made me want to achieve that level of detail from my homemade parts. I think I can do better. But I am on a time frame with this train. I want it done by the Sept 2016 NP convention. I know that is a long ways away but I have to do a tender two box cars, a caboose, and two coaches. In addition I want a station (the CR&N station is a simple rectangle with little detail) and a square water tank. So its a lot to accomplish. The loco and tender are priority. And they have to look good.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Totalwrecker said:


> Good luck to you. I'll not waste time or effort on pipe dreams. Not real amused by your rivet comment nor set up questions. Oh you know better?
> From printed wheels to Bachmann wheels? What's up with that?
> 
> Keep having fun.
> John


John,
I am not sure where this came from... Maybe I wasn't clear in my various posts. 

What do you mean by pipe dreams? Do you think I am just asking stupid questions as a lark? And what set up questions are you referring too? 

My rivet counter comment was meant in jest each time I have made it. I love all of you rivet counters, you do amazing jobs and I am striving to be as good as you experienced modelers. 

Also your are off base with your printed to Bachmann wheels comment. I would suggest rereading the 3D parts thread again in its entirety. I clearly state that the printed 48" drivers are for another project (the next one after this one). I made it know that I was currently involved in another loco build. I am pretty sure that I stated that I was used to working with Bachmann wheels, axels, and motors from another project. This is that other project. 

As for me knowing better . . . I don't know jack . . . hence all the rookie questions. 

I apologize to you and anyone else here that I have mislead by my various posts. I am a rookie modeler who has a lot of questions. For those willing to help me walk through the process I thank you.

For those unwilling to indulge me, I understand. Just so you know it is not a pipe dream. Its a dream and includes some pipe but it is no pipe dream.

Thanks for your input though. . . it makes me rethink some of the questions I will ask in the future. 

Devon


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Pete Thornton said:


> Probably. The boiler without the smokebox (i.e. the bit with water in it) will usually be set over the driving wheels, as you can see from the photo above. (The firebox extends back into the cab, over he rear wheels.)


I just read through the responses again taking mental notes. I should clarify this is not the extent of the boiler. This currently ends at the front cab wall. I was not actually going to extend through the cab but rather have it in two pieces with the interior portion fixed to the cab wall. That way I will be able to remove the cab without interference of the boiler. I don't remember which class it was from but David did this to one of his models in the class and I liked the idea. 

I was thinking of doing it like Bachmann does the 10 wheeler but this seems easier. Make the cab fit snug up to the boiler and have the small rear part of the boiler and all of its fittings attach to the cab wall.

That's one of the problems . . . I simply don't know how it "should" be done. I might be trying to reinvent the wheel. I am open for suggestions. But yes the boiler is most definitely going backward some. The more I look at the picture the more I don't like it.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Amber said:


> After having climbed under the Quincy & Torch Lake #1, a Baldwin 2-6-0, to take pictures and measurements of the frame, several times, I can tell you that the frame extends forward from the front driver axle area to the cylinder casting and ends there. The frame has an extension that is bolted to both the main frame and the cylinder casting, and then extends forward to the front beam. Once I figure out which box my information and pictures are in, I can put up a picture or two of how the frame is configured. The #1 is a bit newer design than the engine that you're building, the firebox is over the 3rd driver instead of between the 2nd and 3rd drivers, so it might not be quite the same, but the #1 was built in the late 1800s, so it can't be too far off.


 I would be grateful and in your debt. I have some ideas but a picture of that are forward of the front driver would be awesome. I need to spend time looking at more locos. There around but most all of the ones I know about are huge. Not the dainty little 2-6-0 I am building. But I think I can, with everyone's help here, come up with a reasonable solutions.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

d_sinsley said:


> John,
> I am not sure where this came from... Maybe I wasn't clear in my various posts.
> 
> What do you mean by pipe dreams? Do you think I am just asking stupid questions as a lark? And what set up questions are you referring too?
> ...


Your private message copy caught me first, answered there. 
except;
Do you want prototypical answers or toy train answers? As many cars as possible is tt to me. 
I missed the 2 projects part.
Be Blessed.
John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So, ¿ " do bomb makers have pipe dreams"?

...!!
Not sure what it is ....is a boiler a pipe..

Are we having boiler dreams!!?

...better ....are we dreaming of Trains here...??
..that is the question....


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Totalwrecker said:


> Do you want prototypical answers or toy train answers? As many cars as possible is tt to me.
> John


Definitely want prototypical answers. The "as many cars as possible" was a rookie question and really not a well thought out one. Because as I mentioned the pictures of the prototype never show more than five or six cars. So that answer was a good one and was a reality check for me.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Pete, TRR #4 is an Accucraft mogul. I haven't--yet--converted anything from a B'mann 4-6-0 chassis, though I've got one on the drawing board right now, a mid-sized Baldwin 2-6-2 (Not EBT #11). If the 48" drivers come to fruition, that too will be postponed indefinitely. 

In terms of weight, I don't really "try" for anything in particular when scratchbuilding a loco, but I usually end up putting around 2 - 3 pounds of weight in. Smaller locos maybe a little less, but still cram as much in as you can. 

Later,

K


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been thinking about this. My suggestion would be to use the weight of the original engine, a Bachmann 4-6-0, as a guide. That is the weight your motor block was designed for.

Chuck


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

chuck n said:


> I've been thinking about this. My suggestion would be to use the weight of the original engine, a Bachmann 4-6-0, as a guide. That is the weight your motor block was designed for.
> 
> Chuck


I was thinking along those lines chuck as well. It probably a good guide. Another poster suggested the same thing and its probably smart. However like Kevin said, though I suspect he had a more thought out reason for doing this, I did not design my loco to hold a specific amount of weight. I wish I could say that was because I was smart but weight was a complete after thought. Now I have to figure out where to put two+ pounds of lead. I have a feeling it will be just about everywhere. 

I did have a thought on this though while I was battling model insomnia. Stayed up way to late thinking and dreaming about a layout design. I cant pour hot lead down my boiler but what I can do is fill it full of small shotgun shot and polyester (fiberglass) resin. I will put a tube in for a conduit for wiring and then fill it with two+ pounds (or as much as will fit) of lead that way.

Devon


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> was thinking of doing it like Bachmann does the 10 wheeler but this seems easier. Make the cab fit snug up to the boiler and have the small rear part of the boiler and all of its fittings attach to the cab wall.


 Devon,
Absolutely no reason you can't split the boiler at the front wall of the cab to make cab removal easier. Lots of models are done that way.


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