# Question for Revolution TE users



## RCE (Sep 14, 2009)

I was thinking of going DCC for my control system for my layout, BUT I don't want to spend that amount of money to run trains on my small layout. Will only run no more the 2 small consists at a time.I have batteries to use for power.If you are a user of the "REVO" I have some questions pros







and cons







of the system.

What are the pros







of the system?
1 Ease or use
2 What inexpensive sound systems work...Dallee,.Hyde Out Mountain..My Loco sound , or what others
3 Typical Range
4 Will this years production units work with future production for basic control ( forward,reverse,sound triggers,ect. )
5 What else

What are the cons







of the system?
1 A proprietary system.
2 What else 
I know I am not asking all the questions I need to. More will come up BUT for now thank you for your help 
Richard


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm not a "Revo" user, although it is a good system. But before all the "lovers" jump in, just let me say you have other options. Check my website.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Pros - Cheap for the receiver, relatively easy to use, the receiver plugs into aristo locos, and some bachmanns. Range is good to excellent. 

Will things work with future production? There's a very good chance that new features may need new receivers, notice to get the new feature "Philharmonic sound" you cannot update your receivers, you need to buy new ones. 

The handhelds seem to be able to be updated, but only at Aristo. 

Cons: 
Cheap... the throttle flies apart when dropped, the keyboard comes apart. Aristo has even recommended a rubber band to hold it together when this happens. 
I don't like the menu system, too many menus to go through, and actions to accept or enter are not consistent. 
Only works with one high quality sounds system, the Phoenix, it will not interface to the dozens of DCC sound systems. 
There are limitations when doing more sophisticated operations like consisting. 
There is no deterministic "forward", if your loco starts going the wrong way, reverse it. Not a big deal but silly. 
You are locked into a proprietary system, you do not have a choice of different receivers, or throttles, and your choice of sound cards is severely limited. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

A lot of people really like the Revo, and I've never tried it. i've followed the reviews of it very closely though, and compared to DCC, it looks needlessly complicated. If you want to run on track power, you need the revo receiver, the six inch long capacitor board, a Phoenix card, and I believe a trigger board for the Phoenix. That's a lot of wire and a lot of cards--where are you stuffing them all? To get sound and power with DCC, you typically plug in or wire up one board, and you're done. If you don't want sound, excellent DCC decoders can be had for around $50. 

Also the proprietary part worries me. I invested a good deal in the aristo 75 mhz system, which never worked as advertised (it did work, and well, but it never had all the claimed features.) Then aristo just flat discontinued it. I can understand their position--you go with the better product. But because DCC is a set of standards, there are lots of companies making compatible equipment. For example, there are four companies making sound and motor controllers: Digitrax, QSI, ESU and Zimo. Digitrax is cheap, the other three are very sophisticated.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

As others have aptly pointed out, one major con is that it is definitely a proprietary system. Actually if you are planning to use battery power, which I think you said you were, it is very simple to use then, particularly if you are using an Aristo or Bachmann locomotive with the "universal" plug. As far as ease of installation, most people get it, follow the directions and the easy to follow menu items and have it up and running in no time at all. While Greg thinks the menus are cumbersome, I personally find them to be very clear and easy to follow when setting up. If you were to use track power, many folks do add the 6 capacitor add-on board to smooth out irregularities in track conductivity. There are no adapter/driver boards required to work with Phoenix, or Dallee boards, or any other soundboards that will work with pulse width modulation power. The old Sierra soundboards that are no longer produced would not work with PWM, so Aristo developed a little $25 adapter board that would allow them to do so. The thing I particularly liked about that little adapter board is that it eliminates the need for the little gel cell battery that came with the Sierra boards (at least with battery powered engines)

I have personally used the system now with Sierra sound, Dallee soundboards, and Phoenix soundboards. As far as I can tell it will work with any sound system that accepts triggers such as reed switches. Essentially to a layman like me, the Revolution receiver acts like a reed switch to the sound system.

As Greg pointed out, the initial transmitters did have a tendency to pop open if you dropped them. Aristo has since beefed them up, and I don't believe it is a problem any longer. I personally have not had the problem with the "production" transmitters. My Beta transmitter did open when I dropped it, but it was no big deal to put it back together.

If you are concerned with basic operations, you have nothing to worry aboaut for upgrades. To date I believe the main update was from the Beta test models, and Aristo did those updates at no charge.

As others have said, there are an awful lot of happy Revolution users out there, but if you are uncomfortable with a proprietary system, you will be uncomfortable with the Revolution. I personally am thrilled with the system. I can control all of the functions that I personally want to control, including running two engine consists (which is the most I run together). When I started out, it took me all of about 1/2 hour at the most to get the first system up and running after I had plugged it into my engine.

Ed


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Using the revo for a couple years now,i realy like it,i'll never wanted to get into DCC control so since i used the older version from aristo TE(limited range ,long antenna,difficult whistle and sound setup)the newer revo eliminated all those hassles,of course some stones in the way like :update Transmitter software to work with the new switch control board,like Greg mentioned update or buy new RX for the phillysound,technic always will advance. The range is excellent no glitches and after the learning curve its easy to program in short: revo suits mevery well !! 

Cheers ,Manfred


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Don't want to start any controversy, but Ed, can you point me where Aristo changed the transmitter case design? Just a link is fine. I was unaware of this, and will change my opinion given some information. 

Thanks, Greg 

p.s. I never dropped mine.. (I had a Revo system for eval for 2 months)


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

I have Airwire throttles, both the basic and the 9000 and a NCE Gwire and Revo.. I had installed and used G Scale Graphics cards with the basic RC plane/car controller, Train Engineer track side mounted in the tender. I have used Locolink at other layouts. I have not used Tony Walsham's products (Sorry Tony). My focus is on operations and when it comes to installing, programming and use, I much prefer the combination of Revolution and Phoenix P8 sound card. Some of the difficulties encountered with other systems. 
Airwire. The basic controller has small, hard to see LED's and no indicator of which loco you are controlling. Repeatedly gets left turned on due to led issue. The 9000 controller needs to be sent in as one of the fuse holders used as battery holders has broken lose from the pc board. I am not the only member of my club who has this repair to deal with. The Speed control has no stops, and if you turn it rapidly due to a pending collision, the signals can be confused and it accelerates. If you have several trains in the same area you will experience interference between the transmitters. Niether of these have a "Stop" button. If you use the NCE throttle, do not expect to run in the Spring, Fall or Winter, or inside a cold exhibit hall, as the unit shuts off and the display goes to black squares when the temperature drops to about 45 degrees. I really like the NCE throttle, good display, stop button, function keys, now if they could make a unit you can use outside.......Yes, it was sent in to NCE and they confirmed it dies at 40 degrees, with no fix. 

Locolink. Short range and the transmitter is a brick, reminds me of the old Motorola brick phones. Controls are not intuitive. Really time for an upgrade with their equipment. 

Revoution. Easy to read display, battery meter, no interference between trains, I use three triggered sounds, Whistle, Bell and Water Fill. Do not need any more for operations. At the National Convention Pre-Tour I was running trains at a friend's layout, handed my Revo to a member who has never run trains and pointed to the buttons, Fast, Slow, Forward, Back, Panic (Stop) and left him running trains while I took a break. No problems. 

I have also installed and programmed QSI and G wire combos and I still prefer Revo for my purposes.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

QSI/G-wire here and all the way, simple, easey peasey to install cost effective, and have used for over two years now. Check out my videos on you tube and or our live channel and see and hear run. Also on you tube believe I have a couple easy installs there too. Regal 
http://www.youtube.com/user/7485jerry 

http://www.livestream.com/crazytrainguyschannel/ 

p.s if you decide to go with QSI they are coming with a new decoder which I hear is fantastic, you might wait for that if you can't the older ones work just great, as far as I'm concerned. They do everything I want them to do! Only problem I ever had was I dropped my T-9000 throttle had to send back to fix antenna jack broke loose. I use both T-9000 and the new NCE Garden wire throttle.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I use both the Revolution and wireless/battery DCC systems (Airwire/Phoenix and QSI/NCE). Each has its advantages and disadvantages... 

The Revolution as I see it: 

Pros: 
Smooth control with PWM. Momentum control is easy to set up and use for slow-speed starts and stops. 
Very easy to program through plain English menus. No obtuse CV codes that vary from one manufacturer to the next to sort through. (Yes, the basic CVs are consistent because they're standardized. But the high-end function CVs are manufacturer specific, as are how they're programmed, based on which controller you're using to do the programming.) 
Graphic display on transmitter easily is the most informative of any I've used, showing loco, speed, direction, battery strength, signal strength. 
Display is backlit for night running. 
Small receiver fits easily in most any locomotive. Larger "super receiver" can be used in larger locos (or groups of locos) that draw considerable current. 
Receiver is inexpensive - $75 on the street, less if purchasing them in a 6-pack. 
6 function control is likely suitable for many users. Functions can control lights, smoke units, and/or sounds. 
Transmitter easy to figure out and use. 
Easily connected to a variety of 3rd-party sound systems including Phoenix, Sierra, Dallee, MyLocoSound and others past and present. Can easily control all of the available sound functions of those boards. The reality is that your choice of sound cards is just as great with the Revolution as going DCC, just that you have different choices. I actually choose which control system I'm going to install specifically on which sound I want in the locomotive. 
Controller is small, has a belt clip for easy carrying. (Hint: wrap some scotch tape around the outside edge of the transmitter to keep it from breaking apart when accidentally dropped on the floor.) 

Cons: 
Compared to high-end DCC systems, functionality is limited. 
No BEMF or similar control for very slow-speed crawl speeds which some DCC controllers can accomplish. 
No knob or thumbwheel on controller. 
No quick way to just type in the number of the loco you want to control. You must scroll through all the cabs to get to the desired loco. (Not an issue if you're only running one loco at a time.) 
How "cabs" are assigned to locomotives is a odd to grasp at first read. 
Setting start and top speeds limits the number of steps on the throttle (i.e, start speed of 20 and top speed of 60 gives you 40 steps at the 1-step-per-push setting.) DCC gives you 128 steps regardless of what your start and top speeds are. In all practicality, I don't know that this is necessarily that big of a deal, as I've yet to be able to notice any distinct change in speed from one step to the next at 128 steps. If you need more "steps" on the Revolution, you change the setting to adjust how many steps each press of the button advances the throttle.
"Speed matching" capability between two locomotives is less than what DCC is capable of. 


Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about the "proprietary" issue. A few reasons. First, even if a manufacturer abandoned the product line for newer, better stuff, the used market will support you for years to come. (Anyone want some RCS throttles, see the classifieds.) Sierra hasn't made a sound system in how many years, but they're still fairly readily available, and Soundtraxx does still offer support for them. Aristo still offers support for their legacy products even if they're no longer produced. The other thing to consider is that even though DCC is an open architecture, there are proprietary elements in play here and there which crop up every now and then. In terms of wireless battery R/C controls, consider the incompatibility between the NCE controller and Airwire's decoders. It'll run them just fine, but you must use Airwire's controller to fully program them. 

You're not going to go wrong with either protocol. For how I operate my trains, they're pretty much dead even. As I said earlier, I base which receiver I purchase based on the sound system I'm using. If I'm using a Phoenix system, I'll go with the Airwire board since it's got the DCC pass-through to get the "most" out of the Phoenix board. If I'm using a Sierra or other board, then I'll use the Revolution. I could use the Revolution with the Phoenix just as easily, but the DCC control gives me more sound and function control of the Phoenix than would the Revolution. It's an extra $70 for the G2 vs. the Revolution, but I don't have a lot of locos and the control is worth the expense for me. 

Later, 

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard. 
If you were ever thinking of R/C'ing Live Steam the system of choice will likely be a 2.4 GHz stick radio. Although there are apparently DCC systems available that can control Live Steam locos with servos, I know of none that can do it through the air. They all require track voltage. Something that most Live Steam locos cannot tolerate anyway. 

If Live Steam is in your future, then it makes sense to standardise on your R/C. There are battery R/C control systems available for use with 2.4 GHz stick radios that will do many of the things DCC will do, and do it less expensively. 
Del has mentioned his system and now I am mentioning mine. 

Sound them all out before jumping in the deep end.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard, I would echo Ed Headington's comments. I've been using the REVOLUTION prior to it's release and am very pleased with it.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg, the "fix" to the transmitters falling apart was a very simple change. I didn't even notice it until someone pointed it out to me. They added a band around the antenna stub which serves the purpose of keeping the two parts of the housing from coming apart. I am not aware of anyone having the problem of the housing coming apart since this change was implemented. That is not to say that there have been no "come aparts", but I am not personally aware of any.

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cool Ed, thanks for the update, I missed that... I'd love to get a picture, so I can help people know if they have the "fix" or not. Sounds like a person without the fix could also do it themselves. 

Regards, Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg, I think I have a "before" and a "after" transmitter. I will check later and if I do, I'll take a picture of the two of them. Since I'm not a 1st class member, I can't easily post pictures on here, so if I take them, I'll directly email them to you.


Ed


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## ORD23 (Jan 2, 2010)

Greg, I have a pic of it, but don't remember the html to post. 

Ed


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## ORD23 (Jan 2, 2010)

Here is the link to the Revo upgrade: http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8816/mlspics.jpg 

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ed H, email directly, highest res you have, thanks... permission to use on my web site? 


Is it the collar on the base of the antenna?

Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi Richard,

In my opinion a lot depends on what the individual is looking for.

Comparing the Revolution to the regular Train Engineer to DCC or DCS is like comparing a basket of fruit.

I suspect that for many of us the choice is often based on the brand and model of locomotive(s) involved.

In my case when I bought LGB locomotives with MTS (DCC) factory installed I was happy to run them with either track power or with LGB's MTS equipment. Many of the later LGB locos had an interface for a MTS decoder and I often installed the decoders whether I used them or not.

I still run most of my trains on track power both with and without a regular Train Engineer.

When Aristo came out with the Revolution it happened about the same time as I was buying Aristo-Craft locomotives with a plug-and-play interface for the Aristo Revolution so I bought Revolution receivers and installed them.

I suspect most of us buy whatever is the easiest system to install because I suspect most of us are not critical (demanding) enough to want to do much more than what the basic system does.

For many (who may not be knowledgeable, demanding and proficient enough to investigate all the options) they may be best advised to find out what their local friends are doing and using because those may be the people they go to if and when they run into things they do not understand.

In any case it is almost always best to try to see and use the various systems before buying them as they are just about all proprietary in one way or another. A lot of time it is choices such as radio control (for DCC) or sound system compatibility that can make somewhat non-proprietary systems into proprietary systems.

I don't think there are best, better or bad systems as much as there are systems that have price levels, installation complexities, features and compatibilities that vary in importance from person to person.

Some things you did or did not mention caught my attention:

1. You did not say what locomotives you have or are thinking about buying. That can be important in terms of ease of installation or conversion.

2. Battery power. That can either make your choice easier (control systems in interchangeable battery cars) or more difficult (I think DCC becomes pretty proprietary when it goes wireless).

3. "I don't want to spend that amount of money to run trains on my small layout." By the time you add radio control to DCC that may make your decision easier - especially if your locomotives happen to be recent production Aristo-Craft.

4. "What inexpensive sound systems work...Dallee,.Hyde Out Mountain..My Loco sound , or what others." In my opinion sound systems really need to be heard before deciding on something. I may like my E-8 Dallee sound but you might not. I have had sound systems I hated yet I sold them to others who loved them.


My suggestion is that if at all possible you should try to find a large scale club near to you with that has the types of systems you are considering.

Jerry


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg, Yup, it is the collar on the base of the antenna. I emailed you the photos this morning. Is that enough resolution for you? Seemed to me that it showed the collar pretty well. I can send higher resolution pics though if you prefer, and of course you can post them on your website if you want to.

Ed H.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Beautiful pictures Ed, very clear. 

So, I thought the problem was the case would come apart when it hit the floor. I'm a bit confused how this helps. Maybe email me with an explanation so I don't clutter this thread? 

Thanks, Greg


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