# Usa Trains Hudson, how fast can it go?



## Roelof (Aug 25, 2013)

Hello everyone,

After years of saving, I finally purchased a Hudson!
The engine is a beauty and very heavy..
But now my question. I converted the locomotive to DCC and I am not impressed by the driving speed.
The CV's for speed are at their highest settings, so thats okay. Decoder is a ESU XL4.0.

since the real Hudson could travel at almost 100 mph I assumed that the model atleast travel at 2/3 of that speed.
When looking at the drivers at full throttle I get the impression that it barely reaches half that speed or even less.
I compared the engine with my Usa Trains GP9, this engine goes much faster, with the same decoder.
The real life GP could reach 65 mph, so the Hudson should beat it, in a drag race.

I have looked at various Youtube clips but I did not see a Hudson driving at great speeds, so maybe it just isn't a fast locomotive?

I hope that someone can answer my question,

Roelof Mekkes


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

If you want speed...take up slot cars.....model railroading is not about speed, and how fast a locomotive will go. Usually that is the first thing someone asks when getting bored watching a train go roundy-roundy, for more than half an hour.......
Most railroad track is usually rated for 70 mph, or less in case you want to know something about the prototype. In fact you will probably find the average speed is more like 40 mph or much less. Class 1 track is limited to about 25 mph or less.....in case anyone is interested. 
Yes it seems backward, but the higher the class, the higher the speed limits....


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

With a DC motor higher voltage makes more speed.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I live in the area where the track is rated at 165mph and the Acela does 160mph on its way to and from Boston, MA.
Now you see it, now you don't!!!!!
Amazing to see this train blast through.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I think Treeman gave you the clue. Voltage and then amps are what you need.

Check your loco's max rated voltage. I think it is 24V. Is that what your power supply provides? Can the decoder handle that or is it limiting the motor output to 12V to prevent damage?

At speed you will need 5-10amps. Can your decoder deliver that at 24V ?

If you look in the Classifieds you will find my Hudson ad with a link to my video, where the loco was running at a decent speed. Not 100mph, but maybe 50-70. Let us know if yours is slower than mine (which wasn't flat out btw. )


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You need a way to measure your DCC voltage, and you want to be close to 24 volts.

The decoder will deliver the amps.

If you do not have a real RMS voltmeter, you need to make a small converter: take the output of a full wave bridge, put a filter cap across the output and then read with the meter... connect the AC inputs of the FWB to the DCC booster output. You want to read pretty close to 24 volts.

What DCC system are you using and what booster and what power supply, specifics please, model numbers.

Greg


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## Roelof (Aug 25, 2013)

Hello,

Thanks for all the replies.

First of all, I am aware that model railroading cannot be compared to slotcar racing. I come from an H0 scale background and I always try to set my decoders to a more prototypical speed.
But this is a thoroughbred! It should be able to outrun a diesel!

The Voltage/Amps question is something that I have thought about. I have tested the loco without any load behind it, only the tender. The decoder can deliver the Amps, at this point, otherwise it would have stopped and started blinking with the lights. In the future I probably wil replace the Esu with a higher Amp. rated Massoth decoder.

The DCC system is a Fleischmann/Uhlenbrock system. I don't think that any of you are familiair with this European brand. The unit is not made for G scale and can only deliver 3,5 Amps at 18/19 Volts.
At our club layout we use a Dinamo system, again a European system. This delivers 4 Amps at 22/24 Volts.

I will admit that the DCC systems are a bit low in Amps. This wil become a problem when I start to pull cars.
The GP runs fine, however.

I am thinking of removing the decoder and test the engine with a DC power supply. I have a 24V/15A power supply and a cheap PWM power regulator. I can measure the Amp draw at the powersupply before it goes thru the PWM regulator. This has worked before. This is probably the best way to determine the true max. Speed of the locomotive.

Again, thanks for the replies!

Greetings from Holland,

Roelof


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

You do not need to remove a decoder to test the DC operation, just program CV 29 for DC. You do need to verify the decoder settings for top speed and top motor voltage ( some decoders have both of these settings to be programmed/adjusted).


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

Fr.Fred said:


> If you want speed...take up slot cars.....model railroading is not about speed, and how fast a locomotive will go. Usually that is the first thing someone asks when getting bored watching a train go roundy-roundy, for more than half an hour.......
> Most railroad track is usually rated for 70 mph, or less in case you want to know something about the prototype. In fact you will probably find the average speed is more like 40 mph or much less. Class 1 track is limited to about 25 mph or less.....in case anyone is interested.
> Yes it seems backward, but the higher the class, the higher the speed limits....


While perhaps your post coveys something different, as i read it has a "you ought to do things this way, not YOUR way" tone. Respectfully, i apologize in advance if i have misunderstood your post.

But it reminds me of the track vs battery factions and rivet accounting.

It is not prohibited, imho, to ask, and asking does not mean one has a propensity because they asked.

If someone wants a 200mph pink freight train, i think the world has enough confines that we might let our niggles pass on how someone chooses to enjoy their trains.

I have sadly learned that none of my trains will run sufficiently fast to loop the loop, although i have tried......;


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

stevedenver said:


> I have sadly learned that none of my trains will run sufficiently fast to loop the loop, although i have tried......;


Maybe you need to re-engineer the loop a bit.

They had this same problem with looping roller coasters. You don't want the loop to be a "round" circle, but more of a "pinched" circle. Once they figured this out, looping roller coasters became common.

"The New Revolution (formerly known as Revolution, Great American Revolution, and La Revolución) is a steel roller coaster located at Six Flags Magic Mountain in Valencia, California. Manufactured by Anton Schwarzkopf and designed by Werner Stengel, the roller coaster opened to the public on May 8, 1976. The New Revolution is the world's first modern roller coaster to feature a vertical loop and has been recognized for that accomplishment by American Coaster Enthusiasts (ACE), who awarded the roller coaster its Coaster Landmark status.[1]

The coaster was named after the American Revolution in celebration of the country's Bicentennial. _*Unlike many of the previous looping roller coasters in the 19th and early-20th centuries which attempted circular loops, Revolution's success was dependent on a clothoid-shaped vertical loop – a first in the industry.*_ In 2016, the coaster received a makeover for its 40th anniversary that included new trains with lap bars and an optional virtual reality experience for riders.[2] The New Revolution opened to season pass holders on March 26, 2016, and will open to the general public on April 21, 2016.[3]"


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

Unfortunately a pinched loop only seems to work with a shay, or shorty lgb locos, which can accommodate the unevenness. But the shay always seems to land on its roof, as does my C-19.

The challenger seems to have difficulty with the pinched loop due to its longer and more fixed wheelbase, despite having what might otherwise be adequate speed.

but thanks for the info.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Some of the old slot car tracks with loops used magnets imbedded in the chassis to hold the car to the track, Lionel also used something like that, "Magna-Traction" or something like that, IIRC. You might try that... Although with the C-19, it might take an awful lot of magnets. Which may cause a similar incident to the one that happened in the Philadelphia shipyards with the USS _Eldridge...

_Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No clue what a bridgewerks DC power supply has to do with DCC, in fact that is one of the few power supplies that should never be used with DCC. 

Your voltage is most likely too low for the loco, if it puts out 18-19 volts at 3.5 amps, I'd be willing to bet the track voltage drops lower under the load of the Hudson.

Remember that the power SUPPLIED to the DCC system is not the power that comes OUT.

I'll bet you are getting more like 16 or 17 volts DCC to the loco.

You need a higher power booster, both in amps and most importantly in voltage.

I ran a passenger loco on my layout and only got 62 smph at 20 v DCC on the rails.. Raised it to 23.7 and got 92-94 SMPH.

So, the "last few volts" make a huge difference in the top speed.

You also have not referenced how you have measured the TRACK voltage.

Finally what model is your system? If you are using a Z21, it only delivers about 17.5 volts to the rails, even though the power supply is 20 volts. That is too low for most all large scale locos that are mainline locos with a high prototype speed. 

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg and I have 30 volt DC power supplies for input to our MX10's and this will give 24 volts out to the rails.
After that it is the heavy wire for reducing voltage loss when we have high current draw. Plus solid rail connections (read rail clamps and multiple feeds from the power source to the rails).


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## Roelof (Aug 25, 2013)

Hello,

What a ride this turns out to be...

I know that a DCC decoder can run on DC power. There are two reasons why I wil not do this. First, the decoder wil stil regulate the motor. Second, most decoders do not like a PWM power signal. In worst case, the decoder wil break down.
I have already mentioned my two options to run with DCC. The Uhlenbrock/Fleischmann and the Dinamo system at our club layout. The trackvoltage I am not sure about. I must admit that I guessed a bit. Sadly, I do not own a true RMS meter. I know that's the only way to measure the exact track Voltage. Also, the load of the Hudson might lower the Voltage. I already ran the engine without any lights or sounds. That saves a few Amps as wel.

The next step is to convert the loco back to DC mode and test the loco with a 24V/15A power supply. I will use a Cheap PWM regulator to lower and raise the Voltage. I have mentioned this also in my other posting.

By the way, can I run the Phoenix PB-11 sound with a PWM power supply?

With Regards,

Roelof

My apologies for any misspelling, English is not my native language.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Roelof, like I mentioned, a small full wave bridge rectifier and a small filter cap, and you turn the DCC signal into pretty darn pure DC, which you can measure with any meter.

This works because the DCC signal is a square wave, not a sine wave.

It's 4 dollars of parts, and you can then see what the issue is and easily read the actual track voltage.

No, the PB-11 will not want to run from PWM, actually no Phoenix will like it, but some people do with steam, since the speed input can be the chuff switch. 

Can you confirm the model of your Uhlenbrock/Flieschmann unit?

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

My Hudson is able to run on DC track and battery/RC. I had Ro put in wires and a switch to switch between the two. I'm using AristoCraft REVO and an 18v lithium ion battery. It is slower than I like. I'm thinking of getting a 24v lithium battery.

My layout at home is short with 10' curves, so I haven't been able to check it at higher voltages. 

I think it needs 24v to the motor.

Chuck


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, I thought the Phoenix would run on PWM if the chuff pin is used for speed sensing.
No sound decoder can be run on PWM with track voltage sensing unless a 'smoothing' circuit is added, this is what Sierra soundtraxx did.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

For you who regularly run your Hudson's and find the motor is wearing , Ray4449 has had special order motors built that have Ball Bearings, just thought I'd add. thank you.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

About 35 years ago Tyco offered a futuristic HO train that could loop the loop or run up the side of a wall. It used steel track and some very strong magnets. Despite this "WOW" factor, I don't think many of them were actually sold.

Yours,
David Meashey


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The original post is below.



 DCC ESU decoder.
command station Fleischmann/Uhlenbrock
Locomotive is USAT


So comments on LGB, Bridgewerks, and anything else do not address the question. The equipment used and the problem is very specific.


Also, we don't need an advertisement for Bridgewerks on a DCC thread, since also it is the *only* power supply out there that even the manufacturer says not for use on DCC.


People unfortunately need to be warned not to use the Bridgewerks on DCC, since it has an unregulated output, and can go as high as 35 or more volts. It's great for analog DC operation.



Greg





Roelof said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> After years of saving, I finally purchased a Hudson!
> The engine is a beauty and very heavy..
> ...


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg

YOU KNOW that it is a violation of MLS rules to try to keep a thread focused on what the OP is asking about. You also know that posters who come in late on a thread almost never go back to the beginning of the thread; they respond to irrelevant posts that draw the thread even further away from the original intent.

I am pretty sure someone identified the most probable issues and solution, but it got obscured by all the noise.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hah!!!!

THANK YOU FOR THAT JIM!!!

I needed a big laugh today, and I am in your debt!

Greg


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