# Bar Oil for Steam Oil?



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Buddy of mine bought a live steam Aristo Mikado. The store told him to filter chain saw bar oil to use for the steam oil. I thought that sounded NUTS! Would this really work? Can't imagine it is designed for what steam oil is designed for and to do. Funny how some try to save a nickel to use something on an $800 or so engine. Jerry


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know what steam oil is like but bar oil is very thick like Karo corn syrup. 

-Brian


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## turbohvn (Jan 7, 2008)

Trust me guys, Bar Oil is NOT a substitute for steam oil.

The main "magic" in steam oil is that it contains animal fat tallow... that is what alters the chemistry enough to allow the petroleum oil base to emulsify in the steam.

Bar oil is a high viscosity oil containing additional tacifiers to make it "stick" to the chain and bar during high speed (centrifugal forces) operation 

Royce


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Sure, you CAN use chainsaw bar oil... and you can also use peanut butter to grease your wheels ("Dennis the Meanace" did on his wagon) and you can burn moonshine in your Lambourgini. The locomotive will run... for a while, anyway.

Friction wear ALWAYS occurs, but with the proper oil it occurs very slowly. Use the wrong oil (or no oil) and the wear is accelerated considerably, and can sometimes occur almost in an instant. Chainsaw bar oil will NOT be carried in the steam other than as big blobs which will not reach all of the "wear" points consistantly. A split second of metal to metal rubbing and a significant amount of wear can occur, which can ruin the machine. One minute it is running just fine and the next it can either seize or have a significant amount of leakage.

Remember, one of the best ways to REMOVE oil from surfaces is to STEAM CLEAN it! If the steam is not carrying oil in it, the steam will clean the cylinder walls and the valve surfaces down to bare metal very quickly. Steam Oil, PROPER Steam Oil, will emulsify with the steam and reach all the wear surfaces. Chainsaw Bar Oil will NOT do so.

Also, notice the admonition to "filter" the oil! How much filtering will remove whatever it is that the suggester is fearful of leaving in the oil. It used to be said that bar oil was the "dregs" of the oil manufacturig process, the stuff that was "left over" after getting the good stuff out to be sold for the best purposes. I don't think that is true anymore, but if someone is saying to "filter" it, then there must be something in that oil that is not good for wearing surfaces, even though it is designed to oil a chain rubbing on the blade of the chainsaw. Do you REALLY want to put something in the steam engine that needs to be filtered?


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Jerry 

Take heed from Royce. The short answer is NO!!! The long answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! 

Regards


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## slug (Jan 5, 2008)

We have been using chainsaw bar oil for years and have never had a problem. Been using it on Asters, Accucraft, Roundhouse and now on our Aristo-Craft aswell. We don't filter it either.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Note to self; don't buy any used engines from slug....


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Aussies are tough!


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## Rob Meadows (Jan 6, 2008)

Yep! Slug probably puts it on his cereal in the morning too!


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry Barnes on 10/10/2008 10:42 AM
Aussies are tough!

I can just picture the Fosters commercial now...

_How to speak Australian: _












* Steam oil. *









* Beer.*


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Is water from a dehumidifier the same as distilled water?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 10/10/2008 2:15 PM
Is water from a dehumidifier the same as distilled water?


Close... kind of depends on how quickly you collect it from the dehumidifier and what else was in the air to be condensed on the plates in it. PURE distilled water is made by boiling JUST water and collecting just the STEAM from it. The dehumidifier is pasing household air through it collecting moisture that is in the air. The air also has cooking odors, grease, oil, "bathroom" odors, etc. in it too, along with mold spores, pollen, dust, bugs, spiderr webs, all kinds of OTHER things that should not be allowed to collect in the boiler of your model train. Granted, the amount of these impurities is probably pretty small and it SHOULD take a long time for the crud to build up to unacceptable levels in the boiler... kind of depends on YOUR particular circumstances in YOUR house, so your mileage may vary. Many people do use dehumidifer water in their boilersk and others say they would never take the chance.

I suggest that you take a brand new very clean teapot and fill it with your dehumidifier water and boil it almost all away and then add more to it and do it again and again and again... after MANY iterations, look at bottom of the pot and at the "concentrated" contaminates left in the pot. If the bottom of the pot is just as clean as when you started and the remaining water is clear, then there should be no problem. If the pot is coated with a scale of some sort and/or the water is cloudy then maybe it would not be a good idea.


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## Dave Sykes (Jan 3, 2008)

Did any of you guys ever hear of Lucas oil? My son and I have used it for five years in eight engines and nothing but fine running.


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

The proper oil to use on our model steam locomotives needs to be semi-soluable which means the oil breaks up or atomizes when subjected to hot steam and is carried thoughout the cylinder and valve gear. Chain oil doesn't exhibit any of these necessary characteristics.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dave Sykes on 10/10/2008 2:57 PM
Did any of you guys ever hear of Lucas oil? My son and I have used it for five years in eight engines and nothing but fine running.




Yes, I have read of people that recommend it. BUT, then again, I have read the same about chainsaw bar oil and just the same I have read that it is not really that good and it should not be used.
The final result is: WHY spend thousands of dollars for a fine piece of machinery and then save a couple of bucks using lubrication in it that is not designed to be the correct lubrication ????

Steam Oil was (a few years ago) about $35.00 per FIVE gallon pail (that is what I paid, anyway) It is readily available at any fuel oil depot (look in the Yellow Pages in your locale for "Petroleum Products" and call them... I got mine from the Amoco dealer, or I could have gone about 2 blocks and gotten some from another brand's dealer. 

But, then again, who but ME would buy FIVE gallons of the stuff... after 7 years of running my two Mikes (and filling a few bottles for some friends) I can just barely detect that the level of oil in the bucket has gone down (my heirs and assigns will have a wonderful time trying to figure out what to do with over 4 gallons of Steam Cylinder Oil).


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Use Whale Oil.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris Scott on 10/10/2008 3:38 PM
Use Whale Oil. 


Is it better if it is from an endangered species?


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

I heard free-range whale oil is best....what about if it came form Free Willy? I really liked the typo in a manual that said it was OK to use I/C oil....I actually was supposed to read it is not ok to use it. I'm sure there were quite a few complaints and returned items under the warranty! 

I never could understand the shortcuts taken on getting proper SCO with the tallow additives. Most every dealer has it in stock and it isn't all that bad of a hit in the wallet.


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

My old Steamlines "Aileen" won't run on straight steam oil but runs pretty good if I add 50% Lucas oil. "A rebore in a bottle." 
I managed to put off a major rebuild for quite a few years now. 
I wouldn't use it (Lucas) straight or on a new engine. 

Harvey C. 
SA1838


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Seems like you may need to hone your cylinders and install either bigger pistons or put new rings on them... What kind of valves are on the Aileen? piston or 'D'?


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

.


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

Aileen has piston valves. She also lacks packing glands which makes for some fairly spectacular running in cold weather. 
There's no question she's earned a rebuild. 

Harvey C. 
SA1838


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

You guys are almost worse than the RC people of which RC ubit should run what.
I do have AC oil coming, but have not found any butane. And there is another,,, if and or but also.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty, let me put this into perspective, Live steamers in our sizes cost about what a used car costs, just under a grand too over 20K, so would you put "bar oil" in the engine of your car??... probably not if you want it to have a long service life!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty
Becoming an informed consumer along with an experienced lived steamer you'll be an insider with opinions on what is best and defending the right to say so....
Until then might try some other brands so that you can compare as to value of the product for utilization in your real steam engine:


Quisenberry Station steam oil
Green Velvet

Roundhouse

All the above have a proven track record among the steaming community.


I cannot remember feedback on MLS or any other live steam forum that would recommend chain saw oil for gauge one live steam engines.


Bottom line for the cost of specifically design lubricate along with the cheap but best water, "steam" distilled, why not the tried and true supplies? I am sure the thread will list many other offerings to satisfy the needs of safe locomotive operations but a good reference point is:

Harry Wade's article-

Steam oil by Harry Wade 


Also an introduction the Southern Steam Trains web site has quite an excellent reference- Southern Steam Train reference


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## K27fireman (Jul 19, 2008)

Any one use this Steam Oil from PM Research? 
http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/product.php?productid=3612&cat=13&page=1


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, 
Thanks for the article, very interesting reading. 

Jerry


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

What have I learned from this thread?


Marty's got Live steam









Chris Scott is speachless


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I did not "say" I had one, I just need the info... 

If I had one, at this moment very strongly thinking of saling it. If its this much trouble with who and what is right based on each persons exsperience.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Running a live steamer gives you an appreciation of why the railroads got rid of them! It's a different type of running, more involved and labor intensive but quite satisfying. I don't feel like doing it all the time, but it's something new and fun to do. Come over to the steam side some Marty!


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## Kurt Sykes (Feb 28, 2008)

You want labor intensive? Try running coal fire.It's way too cool..........Or is that hot 

You guys argue about steam oil.....ask Dave Hottom what he uses. 
And, it does not have any thing to do with cost,It is useing the best product. 
I use Lucus. 

Kurt


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff said-- 
"Live steamers in our sizes cost about what a used car costs,..." 

It's funny you should say that; the conversation on a web site devoted to chain saws is all about whether it's OK to use motor oil instead of bar oil. And the conclusion seemed to be about the same on both sides of the question.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I just bought some Lucas Oil Treatment. I know Dave Hottman uses it 100%, heard of others mixing it 50/50 with their steam oil.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

treatment or stabilizer??


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave H. ain't he the guy who said "I have $30K in a Ruby" ? I don't understand why anyone would use anything but steam oil in their live steamer? Do you use something other then motor oil in your car engine (lubrication system)? Do you run Anti-freeze in your transmission? Oh I know it's the same guys that put propane in their A/C system, sure it makes cold air .. for a while, and when the next owner is having the cars A/C serviced.. or the car is involved in a wreck and goes up on a ball of fire! Back to Steam oil, at 3 ml per hour ( and that a lot of oil ) a qt of steam oil will give you about 315 hrs of run time! Now think about how much you spend on fuel and distilled water to run that long! I can run about 8 hrs on a gallon of alcohol (current cost $5.50/gallon US) Distilling my own water about $.15/gallon (store bought $1.00 per gallon) I use about 1/2 gallon per hour depending on the engine. so the water and fuel cost less then $1.00 per hour to run. It has been so long since I purchased steam oil I forgot what a quart costs? But even at $10.00 a qt it will run you about $.03 per hour. So of all the consumables we use STEAM OIL is the cheapest on a per hour of run time basis. It is the only thing protecting the internal moving parts in our over worked (when is the last time you ran your car at it's maximum capacity for an hour straight) engines and THIS is where you chose to cut corners and save money, if you want to save 3 cents an hour put a lower watt bulb in lamp by the computer desk. But hey its your engine, your time, rebuild the cylinders as often as you want ... I'll be out running trains, trying to finish off the qt of steam oil I started about 5 years ago. (there's a full one on the shelf, I won as a "door prize" at DH many many years ago)


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

This is good gerneral info, have no idea how many running hours you get from a qt, in my mind , qt per month or so. gas ,can per run time, who knows ? I'm just a dumb diesel battery guy asking questions.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff
Crystal ball seems to be working well....


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty, 
A quart of steam oil will last most people a long time. Several years, in most cases, so it's not a big expense at all. ONce a steamer is bought, the supplies are really pretty cheap. Distilled water is under a buck a gallon, a case of gas will last a couple of years, unless you run quite a bit. Most people, including me don't run all that much. No sound system needed, or transformers/batteries/wires. Jerry


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Some of our MLS members need to be introduced to "old guard" such as Kevin O'Connor as one of several authors on the subject of steam oil:WHAT NOT TO USE

Small scale live steam locomotive operators should never use anything other than compounded steam cylinder oil, containing 4% tallow, for the lubrication of the internal parts of a locomotive’s steam engine. _*Other mineral based oils such as internal combustion engine oil and machine oil should be avoided*_ because they will not be able to maintain their lubricating properties in the presence of hot water and steam. The result will be metal-to-metal contact between the internal parts of the steam engine assembly, which will result in the scoring and galling of mating wear surfaces. 

So, before anyone puts their eggs into one basket as to reference or advice: READ- become informed.



Jeff has given an excellent overview that is combined with many years of steaming and building gauge one engines. The other factor about Jeff is his working knowledge of autos; I do not recall him recommending Lucas oil for anything other than internal combustion engines (not that he promotes one motor oil over another, I never asked him).


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 10/12/2008 9:48 AM
I did not "say" I had one, I just need the info... 

If I had one, at this moment very strongly thinking of saling it. If its this much trouble with who and what is right based on each persons exsperience.



My dear Mr.Cozad... 

Maybe you didn't "SAY" you had one, but you did "WRITE" that you have some AC oil coming but have not found any butane... now if you don't actually HAVE one, you are certainly implying that one is in the offing for your stable! 

CONGRATULATIONS for coming unto the LIGHT!

Although you may be sensing some "bickering" here, it is nothing like the "Dark side" where folk "bicker" over the proper battery voltage, how many cells, what controller, what charger, what sound system, what, what, what, what, what, what... or those that live in the Dark Ages and "bicker" over how to clean the track, what controller, what remote system, what track voltage, what transformer, what sound system, what, what, what, what, what, what... Tain't no differnent than any other area of this hobby... "My way" is better than Sinatra's any ol' day!


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Please don't call me MR, makes me feel like I'm Jerrys age. 
If I have a steam up here I was thinking it would be nice to have the needed supplies on hand. Now that we will have an "steam up" office track here (thanks to Rodney)) maybe even Mr Dwight would come.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 10/12/2008 6:31 PM
Please don't call me MR, makes me feel like I'm Jerrys age. 
If I have a steam up here I was thinking it would be nice to have the needed supplies on hand. Now that we will have an "steam up" office track here (thanks to Rodney)) maybe even Mr Dwight would come. 


"Mr." is mearly a sign of repect... although age is sometimes used as an excuse for demanding respect, for me it is something that is accorded to all, regardless of age, until the person discards it by words or actions. At this point, since you are taking the time and making the effort to ease the burdens of those "in the light" to run their locos on your RR, then the level of respect to be accorded to you has gone up considerably! Just might have to start calling you "Sir".


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

maybe even Mr Dwight would come.
Actually, I'd like to Marty and have wanted to for some time. It just hasn't been in the cards yet.  Money, available vacation time, etc. all figure into the equation. I will make it though - one of these days.  Retirement is only four years off (assuming the bottom doesn't fall out of my retirement savings).


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 10/11/2008 8:41 PM

I am sure the thread will list many other offerings to satisfy the needs of safe locomotive operations but a good reference point is:
Harry Wade's article-

Steam oil by Harry Wade

Also an introduction the Southern Steam Trains web site has quite an excellent reference- Southern Steam Train reference



Harry's article is a very good starting point for info on steam oils. When I first read it some time ago the info and particularly data in the article's table raised a number of questions for me; the Flash Point numbers seemed a very low range from 271F - 322F (per Footnote #1). So I started digging into various manufacturers current product offerings and specs. What I found is that Footnote #2 "Flash Point in F" when the data is really in degrees C. This is significant and to show the effects, converting 271C - 322C become, 520F - 612F. So it seemed to me that considering steam at 60PSI equals a temp of ~293F, this changed the perspective the data table provides of steam pressure/temp to Steam Oil properties.

Also, the Viscosity Index (VI) data in the table is also different for current products but the differences are minor. All current Steam Oil products available continue to have VI above 90, typically in the range of 95-99 (the ANSI VI spec range of 40-100 for cylinder oil products). At these values steam oil maintains its lubricating properties (what's called the 'lubricating wedge') at pressures and temperatures well above anything with our small scale steamers. An example of current data from Chevron's Cylinder Oil data Sheet:

Chevron Cylinder Oil W ISO 460 is recommended for moderate service applications where steam pressures will not exceed 150 psi and temperatures vary between 171°C to 204°C (340°F to 400°F).
Chevron Cylinder Oils W ISO 680 is a higher viscosity lubricant recommended for steam pressures up to 300 psi and temperatures from 218°C to 302°C (425°F to 575°F).

These values are typical for other manufacturers steam cylinder oil products. 

There is more of Harry's article info in need of being updated. Though I've collected a great deal of data on all this and where to find the info, I'm sure not an ME to rewrite Harry's article or write a new one. Maybe this is an opportunity for someone so the article ties to today's products. I emailed Harry but he said he's moved beyond writing, or rewriting, articles. 

I asked Cliff at Accucraft what ISO their steam oil is and he told me theirs is ISO 680 (they buy it by the barrel and repackage it).

One other thing that caused me a lot of head scratching was trying to figure out what Flash Point really meant when it came to industry standards and testing for the product's spec. There are between 4-5 different ASTM Standards test methods for determining Flash Point (for example whether the FP test is done in the presence of flame, spark or no ignition source). It's difficult to identify which test a specific cylinder oil product was tested to. Although there is commentary on the ASTM and ANSI Standards websites on which test or tests are most comonly used.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 10/12/2008 8:13 PM
maybe even Mr Dwight would come.
Actually, I'd like to Marty and have wanted to for some time. It just hasn't been in the cards yet. " src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/smile.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" /> Money, available vacation time, etc. all figure into the equation. I will make it though - one of these days. " src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/smile.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" /> Retirement is only four years off (assuming the bottom doesn't fall out of my retirement savings).


Get a new Deck







Maybe your luck will change









It would be great to see you at Marty's


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty stick with what is recommended. From the post else where I'd say your close to having a live steam. I still have the two bottles I bought 2 1/2 years ago it goes a long way. I have found the Aristo oil to work the best in the Mike. It seems to run soother than using other types of steam oil. As far as finding the fuel any good sporting goods foutlet shall have what you need. Plenty of adapters available for the various cans. Later RJD


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Just to stir up some more controversy here.. 

It would seem that steam oil is a mineral oil with 4% tallow blended in. What would happen if one took the correct proportions of, for example, Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil and melted beef tallow (both of which I happen to have on hand) and mixed them? Would you have a decent quality steam oil? For that matter, what about using the tallow straight?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Got to remember the water has got to mix with the oil. I tried the Lucus oil mixed with animal fats and just to thick and makes the engine run sluggish. Later RJD


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By DKRickman on 10/13/2008 3:51 PM
Just to stir up some more controversy here.. 

It would seem that steam oil is a mineral oil with 4% tallow blended in. What would happen if one took the correct proportions of, for example, Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil and melted beef tallow (both of which I happen to have on hand) and mixed them? Would you have a decent quality steam oil? For that matter, what about using the tallow straight?


The original lubricant on real 1:1 steam engines was straight tallow, hence the name "Tallowpot" for the employee that went around the engine pouring tallow into the various spigots for that purpose.

Tallow tends to BURN at temperatures that are just slightly above steam at pressures around 150psi. This is why the original engines soon needed some compounded oils as the pressure (and temperatures) went up.

The questions now would be:
Does Mobil 1 have detergents and other additives in it that would be harmful to a STEAM operated engine?
Would it mix readily with tallow?
And how "pure" is you beef tallow?

I supposed that if the tallow is well refined it would not be a problem to run just with it on a small relatively low pressure (non-superheated) steam locomotive. If you superheat it, you get charred solids that would be very harmful to the innards.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

As to the purity of the tallow - I don't know how one measures such things, but I can say that it's fresh cooked by yours truly, strained off a batch of beef stock, separated, and stored in the fridge while looking for something to use it on. 

Oil additives - that's a good point. Somewhere around here I have, or at least had, some 30W oil with no detergents in it, to be used for lubricating an air compressor. Perhaps that would be a better choice. 

I haven't tried mixing the oils. Heck, I don't even have a live steamer to try it in. For me, it's merely an academic question at this point. That, and I hate mail-ordering unless I absolutely have to. I'd rather make things myself, or buy them locally.


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Heres my penny worth. 

Chain Saw gets chain oil. 

Steam engine gets Steam Oil. 

simple really.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I wonder, though... I have FIVE GALLONS of Chevron 460 Steam Cylinder Oil... can it be used in my electric Chain Saw?


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

The company that makes the Air compressors for our printing presses states that one is to use a 30 w NON DETERGENT oil in the compressor.

I had trouble findind a NON DETERGENT oil. Went to 4 different auto supply stores.

Here on the New River & Western I use a 30 w or so Moble 1. 

Now what does this have to do with Live steam. Nothing.

If I had a Live Steam engine I would use the oil the manufacture said to use.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

John, the reason yo were not finding NON-Detergent motor oil in your local AUTO parts store is automobiles and light trucks stopped using it *50 years ago! * a better place to look is a lawn equipment service location. It is still used in engines with "splash lubrication systems" where there is no filter so no reason to suspend the dirt in the oil.


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## lvst4evr (Feb 28, 2008)

Talked to Charles B. about 1-1/2 yrs. ago & he said Green Velvet was a "good one"! I called G.V. & talked to the owner; Bill I think. He told me the formulation contained tallow (animal fat) & that was used in full size locos!!! That coupled with Charles B's always good advice sealed my choice. I don't have any Aster or other high priced locos, just a measely Aristo mike & an Accucraft Ida but I still want the best lubrication for my locos & also many years of fun running them! That said, use the best steam oil you can purchase! It's really cheap insurance against early failures! I ran the Accucraft oil I bought with my Ida, in the Aristo mike & when it ran out, I've been using the G.V. oil. Also Royce at Quisenberry has a good steam oil. Call him on the weekend & he'll fill you in. Jim Spanier


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Oil, even steam oil, is (relatively) cheap... Hard parts are pretty expensive. -- Pick another place to cut corners.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

ALL 

There is a rumor that Jeff Runge is opening a "Home For ABUSED live steam locomotives". He has openings for both old and new locomotives that have been fed poor quality alcohol,leading to crusted wicks; water produced from home dehumidifiers with all manner of unidentifyable impurities that have put crud in the boiler and steam passages; running gear lubricated with 3in 1 oil and sprayed down with WD40 that turned to goo; and MOST OF ALL, lubricated with any number of substances that did not work over the long haul. AND ALL this ABUSE just because the owner spent $2,500 to $6,500 on a LIVE STEAM pet and wanted to scrimp on its basic food and medication until it died from neglect. By the way, the owner saved $22-$40 over the LIFE of the LIVE steam locomotive. 

If you can't afford to maintain your railroad Cadallac [or Ferrari], go get a Prius with BATTERIES. 

END OF RANT


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Taperpin I'd have to agree totally with ya .Later RJD


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Please contact me off line for shipping information for your ABUSED live steamer...


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Just to add another twist:

Roundhouse ("Technical") recommends "Compounded bearing oil 220". This does not sound like having animal fat as an ingredient....

BTW, I checked out their WEB site, as I am running low on Ronson valves. 

Regards


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is what is said at the Roundhouse site: (All credit given to Roundhouse.com for this information)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steam Oil *'Steam oil', to use it's common name, comes in many forms and weights and often under some other name. There seems to be a commonly held belief on this subject, that 'thicker is better', but this is just one more 'old wives tale'. Also, to say that a certain viscosity of oil is correct for all, without any other qualification (eg. at certain steam pressures, temperatures or pipe size etc) is a little misleading. It may work fine in one design of engine, but be less suitable for another. By choosing the correct weight and composition of oil, you can obtain a more efficient lubrication.
There are a number of things to be taken into consideration when deciding which oil to use such as, temperature of steam, size of piping, point of entry into stsyem, type of lubricator etc. etc. 

The current oil supplied by Roundhouse is, to use it's correct title, 'Compounded Bearing Oil 220' (220 being the weight or viscosity) and was chosen after consultation with the oil's manufacturer and discussion as to its precise application and working environment. The change of oil was brought about a few years after Roundhouse adopted internal gas firing and a small number of engines were experiencing blocked super heater pipes after prolonged use. The blockages were caused by carbonised oil, though this had never been a problem with the earlier externally fired models. The key points that dictated what oil to use were as follows. 

1/ Working on a (relatively) low steam pressure of 40psi.
2/ Displacement type lubricator positioned in cab, so 'wet steam' pickup.
3/ Long pipe run (again, relatively) between lubricator and cylinders.
4/ Small diameter of piping.
5/ High degree of superheating between lubricator and cylinder as superheater heated directly by gas burner and will often be glowing red during operation.


What was needed in this case was an oil that would be picked up and carried by the (relatively) low pressure wet steam, then travel through all the small diameter piping, through the high temperature of the superheater (without being carbonised), and arrive in the correct proportion in the cylinders where it cools again before doing its job.
All of this pointed to a medium weight oil so that it would pick up and pass quickly along the narrow pipes and one with a low 'solids' content so that carbonisation in the superheater was kept to a minimum. The 'solids' reffered to, are additives such as tallow and other fats, which are used as they are a good lubricator in wet conditions.
To deliver the correct amount of 220 weight oil, the feed hole in the lubricator had to be reduced in size as the now thinner oil picked up and flowed far more freely. 

We offer the above case both to illustrate the fact that no one oil is 100% suitable for all needs, and to explain why the current Roundhouse oil is so different from it's predecessor.
Please note that using the current 220 oil in an older Roundhouse loco that was originally supplied with the thicker oil will not cause any problems other than an oily engine. Using thicker oil in the current models should not be a problem as far as lubrication is concerned (slightly less getting to the cylinders), but may lead to long term carbonisation in the superheater. When choosing an oil, you should look at the particular requirements of the model in question. A low pressure oscilating cylindered loco with displacement lubricator will need quite a different type to say a coal fired engine running at 90 psi with oil fed by pump directly to the cylinders. Also, if you are playing about with or changing between different weights of oil, a lubricator with adjustable feed rate is desirable as the this can vary considerably. 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
So, the Roundhouse oil does contain tallow and other fats. I use the Roundhouse oil in all my engines with excellent results. I too find it hard to understand why people will spend thousands of dollars on engines and then cut corners on steam oil.









*


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

My bad. I should have read it more thoroughly







. But at least it shows, that other types of oil are out there which are suitable for our purposes..
Regards


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Well You know, I need a livesteamer like I need a hole in my head. 
to much to learn, may get rid of it.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

HEY! we all have 7 already, what's one more amongst friends?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty
What is so hard about live steam:

Add-

Oil
Water

Fuel

Fire it up and run on the track


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

getting the fuel with out paying high shipping rates. Folks complain about batteries, ha!!! 
I have 4 qts of AC oil, one gal of"distilled" water, no fuel. 

Charles, thats like me saying, whats so hard about having a large RR. if you don't have the room simply go buy a bigger property.

Or theres something deep inside of me saying,, NO I DON'T WANT TO BE ONE OF THEM, NO , SAVE ME!!!!!!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 10/18/2008 7:21 PM
getting the fuel with out paying high shipping rates. Folks complain about batteries, ha!!! 
I have 4 qts of AC oil, one gal of"distilled" water, no fuel. 

Charles, thats like me saying, whats so hard about having a large RR. if you don't have the room simply go buy a bigger property.

Or theres something deep inside of me saying,, NO I DON'T WANT TO BE ONE OF THEM, NO , SAVE ME!!!!!!



But think how glorious it will be to come out from the dark side and unto the Light!

Fuel (butane, I assume you mean) can be purchased from an Asian market. Maybe one or three in that fair to middlin' burg just to your North.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty
Your inner self is probably telling that you need a "real" steam engine to go with your "real" big layout. If there is a will then there is a way to make it happen.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Gee Marty, if you would have ordered the gas from one of the sources I sent you awhile back, you'd have it by now! Jerry


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 10/18/2008 8:18 PM
Marty
Your inner self is probably telling that you need a "real" steam engine to go with your "real" big layout. If there is a will then there is a way to make it happen.




No, no, no... the old adage is:

Where there is a will, there are relatives in the hospital waiting room.


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty, 
Find a sporting goods/camping store. Omaha is full of them and I am sure one is in Nebraska City. The usually sell the large butane/propane camp stove fuel which most of us Live Steamers use. Try it, You will like it! 
N


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Marty, what live steamer do you have? It's ok if it's not an Aristo!









Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes just tell us instead of beating around the bush







Later RJD


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty try these places:

Asian Markets

Just call and ask for the butane stove gas Its 1.29 a can here. and sold in a 4 pack or case of 24


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Neat search Jason! This should get him going.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe he is afraid he will burn his fingers. Guess thats why he uses batteries.







Later RJD


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Those are food places,,, I called one place in believe and it was some private number.


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## bvdrr (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey Marty,the Asian markets sell butane for the woks the asians cook with. Thats where I bought mine and it is usually very in expensive.
Fred


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Fred 
where have you been all this time. I'm tring to find it where I can pick it up VS ship it. I called Dan Moore but have not heard back. somewhere in Omaha or Lincoln should sale the dang stuff.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty, 
There is a Cabela's up in La Vista, NE 402-861-4800 Call them and see if they have the cans of butane, they don't have the mix. Big cans in 3 packs for about $6.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By bvdrr on 10/21/2008 8:04 PM
Hey Marty,the Asian markets sell butane for the woks the asians cook with. Thats where I bought mine and it is usually very in expensive.
Fred

There aint no Asians in Nebraska City.







So they don't have a Market.









Does it have to be "BUTAINE"? 

I got one of them Blue tanks you find in hardware stores for my torch. It is the torch I use to solder copper pipe.

The torch it's self has a valve to attach to the tank and a hose with the tip on the end.

Could you adapt that to Live Steam?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

John
The live steam engines are not setup for propane gas. It is possible to do so but it does require a different setup and arrangement of the propane container. Noel and Brooks are well known for this technique and can be found in the old post sections.


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