# improving the Aristo #6 switch



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I recently picked up a couple of these in stainless. Besides the power issues, which I'm not sure how to deal with, it's really clear that the frog is too deep or the point of the frog is too short. The wheels drop down into the frog and because the flangeway guiderails are much too wide--really too wide--the wheels can flop around in the frog. 

I added strips of .30 brass to the guiderails, to hold the wheels closer to the outside rail

Train-li sells an "aristocraft switch improvement kit" which I ordered sight unseen because I'm so impressed with the Train Li track bender. The kit turns out to be a "y" shaped stainless steel insert that goes into the frog and raises the "floor" of the frog so that the wheels roll through on the flanges. It's extremley effective--I tested it with some Aristo and LGB and Bachmann wheels and it completely solved the problem of the wheels dropping into the frog without adding any "bump."


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, actually there are several versions of the #6, so check yours before you add a shim to the guardrail. The latest versions have a proper guardrail flangeway width. 

The geometry of the frog is wrong, and it's basically impossible to fix this, so the only easy fix is to fill the wing rail flangeways with a plate, or some people have used epoxy or jb weld. 

My understanding is that Train-Li stopped production of these plates, I need a few. Did they resume production or did you buy yours long ago. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Failing to correct the flange depth on the frog eventually causes the wing rail to wear excessively. Once this occurs you will find hard to fix. Making it a flange bearing frog as lownote did corrects this condition. Hopefully these parts are still available from Trains-Li Later RJD


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I just bought two of them last week, got no word on production being canceled. If I bought more of these switches I would definitely want the little plat.


I have one pair of Gary raymond "finescale" BB wheels, and those still drop into the frog. But they have been retired from use


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Production was being cancelled at one point. I talked to Axel and he told me that he had heard the #6 problem was fixed. I told him they improved the guardrail, but there were still problems with the frog and to please not cancel the kit for the #6. This was about a year or maybe a little less ago. 

I won't take the credit for this action, but Axel will remember the conversation with me. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Good work then. It's nicely designed little item, and works perfectly with the oversized flanges on most wheels.

I shimmed the guard rails, but even shimmed with .030 brass they are too wide, I think--need to see how they operate for a while. And the transition into the guard rail is too abrupt--these must be the first generation switches, because it's just a piece of straight rail. If it's a problem in operation I'll have to get some stainless rail, drill it, tap it, and install replacements




On ebay you can find waterproof type micro switches, button type, that look as if they would be a good replacement for the aristo switch. I wonder how waterproof they are? 


http://cgi.ebay.com/10-Mini-Micro-Switches-Water-Proof-Type-19-8x6-4x10-6mm_W0QQitemZ380045317216QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Automation_Components


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike, after your shimming, what is the width of your flangeway? It should be around the target of 0.106 .... if it's there, I would double check your wheel back to back spacing. 

All that said, you are now left with the poor geometry of the frog, that lets the wheel drop into the frog. With the plate, it will not drop further than riding on the flange, but now you have the basic problem with flange bearing frogs: if your flange is too small in diameter, the wheel still drops into the frog and bangs on the wing rails and the frog point. 

Too large of a flange is not as bad, it just rolls through the frog and the wheel tread does not ride on the rails. 

This is the fundamental reason I do not like flange bearing frogs. For now, it's the best idea for aristo #6, since the frog is not correctly designed to support the wheel tread. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll check it when get a chance. It really would benefit from a redesigned frog


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, I had hoped that Axel would commission one, but the price might be very high for an all metal frog. I have a couple of his replacements for the Aristo WR switch, $40 each, but they are sweet! 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

If the condition is not corrected then this is the end result.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I got my Train-Li inserts today, heres one upside down:











Here's the top side, poor focus, but you see the slight chamfer on the top. I agree with Mike, a more gentle chamfer is in order:









Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Boy I timed that just right I got the last four he had.







Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Rats! I need 6 more! 

I'm not telling you nuthin' next time! 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ha, as the saying goes he who hesitates looses. You hesitated







. f Later RJD


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

I just go a #6 wye stainless steel switch. Is there the same trouble on this configuration?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, geometry of frog just as poor. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I also find it irritating--although should have known this in advance--that if the train is entering the switch from the opposite side of the throw bar, e.g. you have to have the points switched in the direction the train is coming from, or else it shorts. I've been using mostly LGB 1600 series switches, or Aristo wide radius switches with LGB motors, and this is a new problem. It makes me want to automate the switch such that it can detect a train coming from a given direction, and switch the points in that direction ahead of the train. A have an LGB EPL Supplementary switch, which will do that, but here again it would be easier under DCC, I assume.

I haven't tried running with the frog unpowered, but that's where I might end up


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

Do any of you have pictures you can post of the improvement? It would be most appreciated. This switch is on the main loading track from the basement and will see a lot of duty.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The little insert fits in the frog, up against the sharp point. All it does is raise the "floor" of the frog so that the wheels ride through on the flanges, instead of dropping down into the frog. The result is a smooth transition across the switch, with no bumping.


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

I just on Train Li but didn find the part for the #6 wye. Will it fit?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Doug right now they are out of stock. I bought the last four yesterday. They will fit the wye I believe. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They do not have one for the wye. The frog is different. A #6 turnout has a straight through route, and a diverging route that is 1 in 6.... a wye has BOTH routes diverging and the angles of the frog are BOTH 1 on 6, so the "angle between the 2 routes" is DOUBLE that of a normal #6. 

You can contact Axel to see if they will make any, it won't be cheap. Tell him I'll buy one too. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually Greg the frog is the same as that in a NO 6. A frog does not change angles or curve For these styles of switches. If AC did what I think they did they are the one and the same frog much like the 1 to 1 RR are. The frogs are set differently for the Y switch. It is set and centered in the track verses a regular switch which is offset to the angle of the turnout side making a right or left hand switch. Measure the length of the frogs you will see they are the same length. Measure the heel of the switch spread and the toe of the frog spread of a NO6 and a Wye bet they are the same. If you look at the wye switch each stock rail bends to opposite directions there fore forming the wye structure. Later RJD


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

I'm waiting to hear back from Tran Li on the upgrade kits. Hopefully they will tell me the same kit works for either.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Doug we did some comparisons tonight and the switch inserts will not fit the wye switch. As usual AC did something funny here. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, the wye frog is WAY different, I will try to measure the frog number this weekend. R.J. had me running around in the dark tonight taking pictures of the frogs. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

I thought you all would be interested in the response from Train Li. It conferms that the kit will fit the Wye too. 

Thanks for your interest. They are on order and should come with the next shipment – as always in life all in the sudden we had a surge in sales for the #6 and it run out quicker than anticipated – sorry for that. We were told that the next shipment leaves Monday and should be here within a few days.
The #6 wye uses the same frog, therefore the improvement should work there as well.
Doug


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll post pictures today, the wye frog is NOT the same by a long shot. I think they made the same assumption that R.J. did, that the #6 wye has a #6 frog. 

If I follow the definition of a forg number, i.e. the ratio of the distance from the point of frog to the width between the rails at that distance measured, this is NOT a #6 frog. 

So, if the definition of a #6 switch is that it has a #6 frog, I submit this is not a #6 wye. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

Thanks Greg for the clarification. Guess I figure out what to do when I get it tomorrow.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's a frog on a normal #6 switch:










Here's a measurement of the frog (rough), 3 inches out:









And the frog width (at 3 inches out) 










About 1/2 inch in 3 inches = 1 in 6, i.e. a #6 frog.

Now to the wye:











Rough measurement out 3 inches (notice how much shorter the frog is?) You are not even on the frog, but ok for calculation











Width at 3" out: 











Call that 1-1/8"? so 3/1.125 = 2.67 so this is sharper than a #3 frog.


Now, it should be obvious that the frogs are completely different, and the Train-Li insert will not fit (I have other pictures, it does not fit).

Can you call this a #6 Wye? Well each diverging route is the same angle from track centerline as the diverging leg of a normal #6 switch, but I submit this is NOT in any stretch of the imagination, a #6 frog!


Regards, Greg


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## Schlosser (Jan 2, 2008)

Got no dog in this fight but waaay back in HO, I had a wye switch whose frog was NOT the same as a Nbr 6 but matched a Nbr 6 when used as part of a crossover. It was popularly referred as a Nbr 3, half of a Nbr. 6. 

The frogs in the crossing on a double crossover are twice the angle of any of the four switches (a Nbr.6 frog is approx. 9 degrees and the frogs in the crossing have to be close to 18 degrees). But note that the crossing frogs are not a part of a curve 

I compared the frogs on the 3-way LGB switch I have and the middle frog IS slightly 'fatter' than the straight rail frogs, but it sure isn't twice as fat, so it just can't be half the number of the straight rail frogs. 

This makes me think that the radius of the curves have a big effect on the angle of the frog in a wye switch. Now how can I prove that? What a homework project!! 

Art


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Art, I think you are sort of saying what I did at the end of my post, that in terms of "curvature" (which is the wrong way to say diverging) the wye is the same as a #6. But the frog angle is definitely not the same as a #6. 

But if someone said "we have this great new switch, a #3 wye" no one would buy it, since a #3 switch sounds bad... a #6 sounds much better. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

Thanks again Greg. I contacted Train Li and asked them to make an upgrade for the #6 wye and that I have others interested. I'll let you know what I find out.

Doug


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep who would want to buy a no 3 switch. Greg: I looked at a 4ft dia switch and the frog almost looks about the same. Will check the measurements in the am. Later RJD


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

I got the wye today and I see the problem now. Compared to my USA Trains switches the frog is a lot deeper. I have some really hard metal filled silver epoxy I will fill the depth with unless Train Li will make something for the wye.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That will work, but unfortunately, filling the frog makes it a flange-bearing frog. Now you need to "survey" your flanges on your rolling stock to set your "standard". 

Regards, Greg


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

I received word from Axel at Train Li that the same part for the #6 switch will fit the wye. The manufacture claims it will and if it won't he offered me a full refund. 

So when I got it post the rest of the story.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I fixed my Aristo #6 switches by replacing them with USA #6's...


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

Posted By Chucks_Trains on 02/28/2009 4:59 AM
I fixed my Aristo #6 switches by replacing them with USA #6's...









I have all new USA switches but need one wye for the entry track. So I looked on Ebay and found a new Aristo #6 wye for 80 bucks stainless. Everything else will be USA switches.


I Haven's seen a USA wye though. Do they make one? If so I will get one and use the Aristo else where. If so then







story of my life. LOL


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck you are such a troublemaker! 

Trust me, if USAT made SS switches, I would be all over them, but they don't and they do not make a wye. And Doug, tell Axel to take a look at these pages, if he's not convinced the frogs are not the same, well, what can I tell you. 

Since the inserts are small and light, then the postage you are going to pay to return them is not much. 

I need more for the regular switches anyway, so I'll probably wind up getting your return. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

Greg even if it doesn't work I will keep it. I'm sure I'll end up buying an Aristo at a train show when a bargain stares me in the face.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, good deal. I have a picture of trying to put one in my wye, it's not pretty. I then took it over to a regular #6... it dropped in by itself. You might be able to bend and spread the legs to fit there, but the tongue will not fill that part of the frog. 

I hope we can get some for the wye, but there are so many fewer wyes sold, I wonder. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

I'm a pattern maker by trade maybe I can make a pattern and make some up for those of us who need them.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I just got ten of these from ebay:

mini switch


They are the same dimensions as the Aristo switch. The button is under a rubber boot. They seem reasonably waterproof. I'm planning to keep the aristo switches in till they fail, then swap these in


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I measured the flange depth with the shim today, exactly 3.00 mm, perfect. The depth of the #6 without the shim was 5.97mm. 

So all I need is some electrically conductive glue. I am definitely going to taper the edges of the shim, way too abrupt. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

Well I received my # 6 switch part from Train Li today. M y need was for a wye and it fits perfectly. I will post pictures as soon as I finish the install but it line up perfectly. Cool!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I installed mine in the No 6 today and all works well. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've seen it and have a wye, you have to spread the legs. I'm a bit concerned about the gaps in the different frog, but as long as the flange hits it, it should work. Did you shove it up into the frog point to widen the legs? (Actually you had to, so I'm guessing it's not difficult) 

That's good news, since I have a wye too. 

Please post your picture. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

Yes I did shove it in using the point to spread it. The way it fit really well. I rean some cars and a small to axle engine that is really fussy in switches and it went through with no hiccups. I think the little gap in quit manageable.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

After much work I've got two #6 switches installed and running reliably. Both needed the train-li insert and both needed considerable work filing the point rail smooth where it meets the straight rail. I've got both powered by LGB remote switch machines, which I've found to be very reliable. I'm going to bypass the microswitch and instead use an LGB 12030 supplemental switch to power the frog and a signal light. 



They do look better than the "wide radius" or LGB 1600 series turnouts, and once they are set up rght they seem to work very well


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