# Ruby Beginner question



## Allan Bray (Sep 28, 2011)

My two questions may already be addressed elsewhere; if so, if anybody can point me in the right direction I'd really appreciate it.

I'm building a Ruby kit and I've run into a couple of hiccups. First, when running the model on air (~5-10 psi), air does leak around the gaskets between the cylinders and valves. I've tried tightening down the valves as best I can (philips screws aren't very cooperative in this regard), removed the valve blocks, re-cleaned the faces and gaskets and reset them; all with no success. Actually, I made the problem worse. The amount of air isn't very much, but nonetheless I'd be happier if all the air/steam were going to the cylinders instead of some being lost between the valves and cylinders. Is this typical? Has anybody else run into this? Any recommendations? Should I even be concerned with this?

The second issue is really more just a point I need clarified. I've been following Dave Hottmann's guide for tuning the Ruby, but I'm unclear on how to identify an early or late admission. All I have to go by are the scribed lines around the valves; where should they be for the start of an admission event? Or, is there something else I should be looking at? How do I tell when an admission is happening? I must be missing something in the instructions but I've read and re-read them... anyway, a little help here would really be appreciated.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Regarding the leaks... Have you coated the gaskets with steam oil? The more the better if truth be told. The gaskets should swell with oil and seal better than dry gaskets.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Allan, 
Welcome to this group. 
I am sure that you 'should' find the answers to your questions here. 
OR get so much conflicting advice you will be even more confused. 
Firstly, I know nothing about the Ruby! 
That said, my question to you, is 'do you understand the principles involved in a steam locomotive?' 
That is, why there are valves, where the steam has to go to make the pistons work etc.. 
With this basic knowledge, you should be able to follow things through and make logic out of any instructions. 
Without it, you may not fully understand why your locomotive is doing things! 
Again, welcome, and good luck with the Ruby. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Alan, 

In addition to the above oil advice: The leak situation may ease when you run on steam with a full oil reservoir. I had a similar experience with the Phillips screws on my mogul. They were hard to tighten because of the angle of the screwdriver. I replaced them with Du-Bro metric screws (from a nearby Hobbytown) that use a tiny allan wrench. That wrench can be trimmed down so it fits closely against the smokebox, so the screws could be tightened equally. I got a dollar's worth of gasket material and using a copier I photocopied the old gasket image on to the new material so I could get precise hole alignment. The mogul runs like a champ. 

cheers


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

The valve should be all the way in (that is - to the line) when the crank is at the top. This allows the steam to push or pull the piston when the crank is in the position to do the most good. I found adjusting the valve to the line a bit fiddly and needed my reading glasses or a magnifying glass to really see what is going on. 

To truely check the timing, you can remove the "E" clip from the crank where the main rod attaches to the rear wheel. set the reverser valve to forward. apply air to the engine and slowy rotate the wheels. the piston should move back and forth by air pressure controlled by the valve as you rotate the wheels. The piston should start to move in and out with a given angle of crank rotation. if you rotate the wheel forward, the piston should move in when the crank rises above the centerline and move back out when you rotate down past the centerline in front. the distance above and below should be the same. when you rotate the wheel backwards, the piston should start to move at that same distance above/below the centerline...

Gee its hard to explain...You want the piston to do the same amount of work when the crank is at the top verses when it is below the center of the wheel. try it an see what happens. 

If the valve is set at the line when it is all the way in and the eccentric set so that all the way in happens when the crank is straight up (12 o'clock) it should all work out perfectly. if the piston moves over more angle more at the top then the valve is set too far in, more at the bottom, too far out. if the piston moves over the same angle above vs below but the distance is not the same rotating forward vs reverse, the angle of the eccentric may need adjusting.

Question to scratch buildiers....Am I correct in saying that you can use brown paper (from a grocery bag) as gasket material? Just saturate in steam oil before installing it. I had heard something of the sort somewhere. 

I have in the past used the label from Levy's jeans as a gasket where a thicker gasket is needed, with great success.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

cleaned the faces and gaskets and reset them; all with no success. Actually, I made the problem worse 
Allan, 

One way to clean and polish the faces is to use polishing compound (auto store) on a really, really flat surface - thick plate glass, or similar. If you put the item face down and rub it into the compound on the glass, you should see the face uniformly polished - the high spots will shine better than the low ones!


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## Allan Bray (Sep 28, 2011)

Thank you all for your responses! I guess I should have included more information in my original post. I actually have a pretty solid understanding of the mechanics and thermodynamics of steam engines. What I was looking for was a visible reference that indicates exactly when each admission event occurs. To sort out the timing, in a perfect world I'd be adjusting the valves to begin a specified admission event (based on some visual reference, like the line scribed around the circumference of the valve) with the driver at a certain angle before/after front (or rear) dead center. I can work with the guides suggested above. If I find some measurable combination of adjustments that work ideally (to me) I'll be sure to share them here. 

As for the gaskets, they were liberally oiled with 3 in 1 oil as recommended by Accucraft when I first installed them, and I re-oiled them when I re-installed them afterwards. I really like the idea of finding screws with Allen key heads - philips head screws to me are just a bad idea. I'll try that, so I can torque the valve block down a bit tighter (without mangling the screw head or driver), and if that doesn't work, I'll give a slightly thicker gasket material a try. I'd like to avoid polishing the faces except as a last resort, but it is out there as a possibility. It is encouraging to hear that the gaskets should seal better with steam (or heat, anyway), so if I can't get get it perfect I may still complete the assembly to test it under steam.


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

I had the very same problem with my Ruby. I'll offer two suggestions. First is the use of a dollar bill for gasket material. Find a semi crisp bill and cut out a new one. On bill will supply quite a few gaskets and is far cheaper than buying gasket material. They work quite well. Secondly when it come to tightening those horrible phillips heads, support the bottom of the cylinder with a block so that it lifts the wheels of the ground a bit. having done that you will now be able to put substantially more down ward pressure when tightening without worrying about slipping off and ruining the screw. I did these two things on mine and cured the steam leak. 

As for the timing issues it can be tricky. There was a great thread about it with lots of pictures in the archives but they were recently deleted. Dose any one out there still have access to it? It even included great info on how to set your Ruby to inside admission for smother forward running. Keep us posted on how it works out.


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

There was a great thread about it with lots of pictures in the archives but they were recently deleted. Dose any one out there still have access to it? It even included great info on how to set your Ruby to inside admission for smother forward running. 


With many thanks to Dwight Ennis I can tell you that in the Informative Threads Index is this PDF containing a huge amount of information on setting and tuning a Ruby 

http://www.santacruzlumberco.com/MLS_PDFs/InsideAdmissionAndAirTuningARuby.pdf


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Thanks for coming to the rescue on that one Larry! 

The one i was thinking of had lots of info on putting the kit together but had some of those photos later on. I'm so glad to have that cut away photo of the cylinders again. I want to add drain cocks to mine and that helps visualize things. I ordered a set of the 5/32 ones from Maidstone Engineering, And hope to do it this winter.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually go back to the instructions on timing. It is very straight forward. I was concerned when I got to this point but after all said and done I got it right. The loco is tight when new. Also once fired up move the reverser forward and backward. This gets the cylinders warmed up. Once that is done the loco is ready to run. May have to nudge a bit should go if all is timed. Also your leaks may go away once you actually fire it up. They will weep some at first. After running under steam you can tighten the screws some on the cylinders as now they have warmed up. Later RJD


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## Allan Bray (Sep 28, 2011)

I'll go back and re-read the instructions, and report back on my success. 

On a different note, I've read that in general, for a live steam railroad the curve radii should be as gentle as possible, and the grade should be as low as possible. Now, my plan is to model a narrow gage mining railroad, with the Ruby doing service on the line. My yard has a fairly steep grade in the area that my wife is letting me use (~8%) and has a number of large, mature hardwood trees - basically this section of my yard is a forest. I am setting up the Ruby for radio control (DSS) and I should be OK on that score - I've had many years experience with RC aircraft. 

So these are the decisions I need to make; any advice anyone can give me considering the Ruby would be a huge help. 
1. How critical is the grade? Or put another way, what is a comfortable grade for a Ruby to run on, pulling ~4-5 cars? The answer to this question dictates how much earth I will have to move (less always being better). A perfectly flat layout is less visually interesting to me as well, so I'm hoping there's some wiggle room here. 
2. Are there any concerns with using aluminum track? I won't power the track so conductivity is irrelevant. 
3. There are a lot of leaves in the area in the autumn - how have other people dealt with this? 
4. Raccoons are regular visitors - what are the potential issues there? 

I have some time to think this through - I likely won't be able to start building until the spring. Any advice or experience would be a great help.


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Hey Allan,
You have similar philosophies to mine. As long as you want to go live steam or an occasional battery power aluminum rail is great. In fact it is less slippery than stainless or brass. You will just need to make sure you allow for expansion since it is the most prone to that. I think 1% might be the steepest you could go with 4 cars unless they are very small 2 axle cars. Normally you want to cut your grade #'s in half on a curve since they zap you for power One wheel must slip since they don't have a differential like a car. The tighter the curve the more slip that must happen. I intend to have grades in my layout and will have R/C in my loco's to compensate. Here is a link to a thread I started on this topic.

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/118964/afv/topic/Default.aspx


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The reason the grade has traditionally been a problem in live steam is because, unlike the electric brethern, you don't usually have controll of the speed unless you run along side of the engine and periodically reach in the cab and adjust the throttle. 

With electric engines, you can set a speed and when an up-grade is encountered, the engine will slow, but this reduces the resistance it presents to the the flow of electricity, so more flows, which increased the magnetic field in the electric motor which provides more energy to drive the armature to spin and that then translates to more power to the wheels to maintain the speed. If the electric engine encounters a down-grade then gravity supplies the energy to move the engine and it becomes the drive wheels that are trying to spin the armature. The spinning armature produces more resistance to the current from the power source and so the motor would slow. The result is that the engine will moderate its own speed, not slowing too much going up hill or going too fast downhill.

Steam engines don't respond so quickly to the changes in power required to move the engine. I have seen steamers slow and stall on an up-grade, and after sitting a few seconds the steam pressure will go up enough to provide the power to make the engine move again. But, on a down-grade, there is nothing to slow the speed change caused by gravity. It is the same friction to be overcome going downhill as uphill and so gravity can add to the speed very easily and the engine will "run away"... usually derailing at the curve at the bottom of the hill!

If you radio control the Steam Engine you can open the throttle when an up-grade is encountered and thus maintain speed, and you can close the throttle when a down-grade is encountered and the pistons being worked by the drive wheels will be working against a partial vacuum trying to pull more steam into the cylinders than the closed throttle will allow and that presents a power loss and will contain the run-away propensity of a steam loco. But... YOU have to maintain control of the throttle! 

Thus most live steam tracks are kept to a minimum of grades so that a single setting of the throttle will run the train around the loop without serious speed changes.


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## Allan Bray (Sep 28, 2011)

Randy, I viewed the thread you've started and I'll stick to that. The discussion is right along my "train" of thought. Semper Vaporo - you're telling me exactly what I thought. It's very good information. I'll jump over to Randy's thread to continue with this discussion. Thank you!


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Hey Allan, You by no means need to continue your discussion on the thread that I started. For most intents and purposes I consider that thread dead. If it were to come to life again great, but I just wanted to show it to you so you could read all the helpful insight I received form every one since it was a quite similar topic. This is your thread keep it going as long as people keep posting to it. That is the beauty of this forum there are many threads that are similar if not the same topic but they all take slightly different paths and have their own merit.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Allan Bray on 07 Oct 2011 08:53 PM 
I'll go back and re-read the instructions, and report back on my success. 

On a different note, I've read that in general, for a live steam railroad the curve radii should be as gentle as possible, and the grade should be as low as possible. Now, my plan is to model a narrow gage mining railroad, with the Ruby doing service on the line. My yard has a fairly steep grade in the area that my wife is letting me use (~8%) and has a number of large, mature hardwood trees - basically this section of my yard is a forest. I am setting up the Ruby for radio control (DSS) and I should be OK on that score - I've had many years experience with RC aircraft. 

So these are the decisions I need to make; any advice anyone can give me considering the Ruby would be a huge help. 
1. How critical is the grade? Or put another way, what is a comfortable grade for a Ruby to run on, pulling ~4-5 cars? The answer to this question dictates how much earth I will have to move (less always being better). A perfectly flat layout is less visually interesting to me as well, so I'm hoping there's some wiggle room here. 
2. Are there any concerns with using aluminum track? I won't power the track so conductivity is irrelevant. 
3. There are a lot of leaves in the area in the autumn - how have other people dealt with this? 
4. Raccoons are regular visitors - what are the potential issues there? 

I have some time to think this through - I likely won't be able to start building until the spring. Any advice or experience would be a great help. 
Hi Allan,
Some good answers about grade have already been given, but I will add my thoughts to your questions (some serious, some not!)
1) A little up and down is nice to have to 'make' the driver work and not just sit back and drink his beer and watch.
IF you have a 'down' followed by an up, then even if left alone, it is less likely that there will be a runaway. 
2) Aluminum track has worked for me for the last 30+ years. Yes expansion is a concern. Where the track might see a lot of temperature change, I have one area where the hot summer sun hits it for a few hours each day, I am actually laying 3 foot sections of track, as the 6 foot needed too large of a gap. The mathematicians amongst the group can give you the 'actual' expansion for the degrees. 
The other thing that I discovered was when I first laid the track, I had to make my own rail joiners, which I did out of brass. These corroded to the aluminum making any expansion and contraction even less likely!!!! 
3) Lots of leaves - no problem, cut down the trees!
Well failing that, I had an area where the neighbours pine tree would drop those long needles on my track, and they were impossible to sweep, or blow off. I kept trying to cut up some tarps to lay on the track but never did.
For leaves, I try to use a blower and get them off when dry. Don't let them get wet and 'dissolve' onto the track.
4) Racoons - could be a problem if they like to play trains, but as long as they bring their own locos and rolling stock, then probably it will be okay.
I always suggest to people who are about to build their own railway, look around at what other people do, either in person if you can, or in magazines and on sites like this.
Decide what you want to get out of your railway, and stick to your plan.
But most of all, have fun designing and building it, and don't rush as it is a long term hobby.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Hi Allan,

I too this video this morning, and it may help to put some things in perspective. First of sorry for the jerky video but as you can see my track is Horrible! I just threw it down for temporary until I can get started on the real plan. I put strips of weed block down and a bed of crusher fines on top that have all but disappeard with the years rain. 


As for my ruby It may have ran better but the gasket between the one vale and cylinder is now leaking. This is the side that has the factory gasket in it still. The side I put the dollar bill gasket in is nice and tight. I'll be fixing that when I do my R/C and cosmetic make over on her this winter. The straight section of track is what I estimate a 2 or 3 percent grade. You can see how it takes off running down hill in the beginning and has to struggle to get up toward the end. Also note the speed drop when it goes into the bends. I even have to give it a push at one point. Like it said I could make things run a lot better by Grading the track better (just add more crusher fines on the low side) Getting all the track up out od the grass a bit and fixing my steam leak, but I think you will get the gist of it. Hope it helps!


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## Allan Bray (Sep 28, 2011)

Randy, it looks like you have the right idea. I should buy some track soon and just lay it out temporarily, and use it to work any bugs out of the Ruby as well as give me some experience with grades and curves, so that I can do a better job of planning based on what I can actually see. I'd hate to take time to lay track permanently, only to find I've inadvertently created a railroad that the Ruby can't run on without problems.


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## Ruger B (Jun 15, 2020)

This is such an informative thread.

I can't stop from digging it up. 

Soon, I will pull my tormented Ruby (currently, outside sitting under a tree) in for a go using the aforementioned discussion. 

Perhaps someone has a dusty, never ran right, Ruby sitting on their shelf...still intrigued by steam will stumble here. 

Grow the sport. 

Ruger


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I just scanned the thread and may have missed something

to set the timing, the best way after reversing the admission is to go back to the kit instructions but you are now doing things 180 degrees off.
This should get you very close to there. The Ruby has simple timing which means there is lap in both forward and reverse so there will always be a lag in timing causing poor performance. You can advance the timing in forward by rotating the eccentric in that direction but it will retard it in reverse. You can actually get to the point where it runs wonderfully in forward and not at all in reverse. Get it so it barely runs in reverse and it will perform well in forward.

8% grade is double what the max recommended is. You will definitely need RC and will need to use the Johnson bar to slow it down if you go down something that steep. Pulling back on the throttle wont brake it at all.


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