# Piko vs TrainLi switches



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I've been trying to find a someone with experience with both to give a good comparison. Is the metal frog of significance? I want to do this rightte first time. All I put is appreciated.


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## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

I'll give this question a Shot. 
I own & use 8 Train LI TrainLine 45 R7 nickel plated brass switches at $165 each..... (4 pair)..... 
I have not purchased the PIKO G switches yet..... R5s ?? with Tighter curved Leg....... 

I require a 12 ft Min Diameter Curve on my Layout & the R7 TrainLine 45 switch gives me a 14 ft Diameter curved leg.... 

Now on Frogs.... A Metal Frog is powered on the Train 45 Switches..... A plastic Frog product is not powered. 
A Powered Frog helps short Engines run thru Switches.... Especially gently Curved long Switches. 

The pit fall of a powered 2 rail frog.....is that it needs a polarity switching system (which is the magnet & poly fuse on TrainLine 45) and is also the loss of the 
non derail Spring switch"entry feature" ..... Which can be used but opens the melting Poly fuse with a mini surge..... 

The Train Line 45 R7 switches exceed my expectations because I run my RR typically only Counter Clockwise .... & All Engines run Smooth thru these switches. 

Dennis M from GBay, WI


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

By the way, do not put any stock in the "R" numbers between brands... the LGB "R" measurements are different from the Piko ones and there was never an R7 either. 

The Train-Li switch is about a 5.5 frog, the Aristo and USAT people have a #6, the Piko is tighter. 

I would not focus on just the metal frog, there's a lot more to a reliable switch than just the composition of the frog. The most common problem is maintaining proper track gage throughout the switch, most do not do a good job of this, and 99% of derailments are at switches. 

I hope I have your attention now. 

I'd find what "fits" first (what you may have done), then get opinions (BTW I like the Train-Li much better than the Piko), and then get one and try it out in your layout. 

Greg


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Since just now laying it out, I can make what ever fit. I have heard nothing but good comments about TrainLi and leaning that way, but a retailer I recently talked to seemed high on Piko so thought I'd solicit input before pulling trigger.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, if you can make whatever fit, I suggest #6 switches as a minimum, and #8's wherever you can fit or afford them. 

Stay with 10' diameter minimum and you will be a happy guy 

Greg


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## benshell (Oct 1, 2008)

Having had problems with switches from other manufacturers (although I haven't used Piko) I've been looking at the Train Li switches as well. Can someone confirm that they really are properly gauged? Like Greg said switches have been the main problem area for me, mostly because the gauge on mine is not consistent and gets too tight at the points. If Train Li switches really are significantly better than others than I would say they'd definitely be worth it.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Greg,

Be more specific Why 6 so I fully understand? I need 4 to start and may add 2 more later. The $ start to add up quick.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg means #6 turnouts not you need 6 turnouts. The frog number (#6) is a measure of how the diverging track angles away from the straight track. A #6 is nice compromise between being a small turnout, but yet being large enough to accommodate most rolling stock. 

Craig


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

First let me state that I am a Train-Li dealer. 

But before I became a dealer I was just a customer, like everyone else, looking for a reliable quality product that worked 
correctly right out of the box.

I had come to realize that the majority of my derailments and operational issues were because of the switches I was using.

I replaced all of my 16 switches with the Train-Li R7's and R-4s and have not had any of those problems since. 
The switches worked perfectly right out of the box and did not require any modifications to get them to "work" correctly.

The 10 R7's on my first phase of my layout can handle anything I throw at them, whether its an Aristo Craft Mallet pulling 40 coal cars, 
an Aristo Pacific or E-8 pulling a string of Aristo 6 Wheel heavyweights, or Even the USA Trains GG1 with a string of USA Aluminum streamliners, 
at speed without any derailment or issues. I use them for high speed crossovers in the rear, as well as for my, and bypass in the front.

They have been in operation outside for almost 2 years now and I have not had any issues at all. 

I became a Train-Li dealer Because of these fantastic switches, and have yet to have a single complaint with any that I have sold.

Ron


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I knew he said number 6 not 6 as a quantity. For some strange reason when input the number sign and then the number 6 when using my iPad it became a capital O. It does some strange things on this forum like not getting the faces, and others. Oh well, the price of convenience. 



So by saying number 6 that is the train li R7?


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Just for clarification. Frog# and R (which stands for radius) have no correlation - or extremley limited correlation. 

Train-Li switches use a R designator to indicate the closest radius in feet and that is a new standard (now 1 year old). The confusion was complete when Piko introduced their switches and further diverted from the meaningless LGB R designators. LGB's R designators where randomly choosen, i.e. their large switch was described as an R5 while you can fit realisticly more curves inbetween an R3 and an R5 then just one (R4). Then Piko's R5 which is under LGB designation just an R3 put more randomness to this picture. Hence one had to step out of this and make sense by using radius-feet to close in on this.

Train-Li Piko LGB Aristo
- R1 R1 R1
R3 - R2(only as curves)
R4 R5 R3 x-wide (claim 10' radius)
R7 - R5 #6 switch (no a real radius because after frog it is more straight)
R10 - - -
and of course curved switches

R4/R2 R5/R1 - -
R4/R3 - - -
R6/R4 - - -
R7/R4 - - -
R10/R7 - - -

Y

R7 - - #6
R10 - - -


X

- - R1 -
R4 - - -
R7 - - -

3-Way

- - R1 -
R7 - - -

And for Greg's info R10 uses a #8 frog, R7 runs USA Trains Bigboy at full speed.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I will have to go look Axel, you have a #8 switch? cool. 

I see your chart, but I think you have biased it towards Train-Li's definition of R numbers, and you have not indicated the actual frog numbers, nor the exact curvature of "curved body" switches, such as the "R1" switch seemingly made by everyone. 

I would love to see a chart of the "radius" of the "curved body" switches as the "sorting" order. 

I would agree though, as a GENERAL comparison, your chart relates the ROUGH equivalence of the switches. 

The actual operation of the switches varies wildly, and, for example, Aristo switches in their unmodified state, leave a lot to be desired, even though "specs wise" they look great. 

Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)




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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Had a couple of PMs asking to see the GG1 going through the R7s at speed in the rail yard so I made a couple of short vids.
I know the USA Trains GG1 can be a pain, but it may be your switches and not the GG1 this time







.

Ron


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

Man, that chart is nothing but confusing! It did me no help at all

Why can't we speak english or at least come up with some sort of standardized terminology.

Oh, that is right, this is Large Scale we are talking about.

John


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Greg, 

So when you say you suggest #6, etc., are you meaning Aristo #6 or TrainLi R7? I'm confused......


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## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

One of your G Layout decisions is selecting the minimum Curve Diameter to be used !! This also includes the Curved leg of the Switches... 
I believe a Train LI R7 and Aristo #6 are in the BIG Curve category that allows both a MTH Big Boy or MTH Triplex to Run nicely..... I run Both !!! 

Definition of the #6 "Frog" category includes many switches from many Manufacturers. 

My Train LI R7 Switches with an approx 14 ft Dia Curve meets my goal of 12 Ft Minimum Diameter Curved Track Requirement..... 
I do have 4 BIG Engines..... & 10 Small ones..... The Biggest Engine on your roster defines YOUR Specified minimum Curved Diameter..... 

Dennis M from GBay, WI


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Mickey 
I like USA's #6 it is dif. then aristo's #6 also i'm with john about the chart my LGB 1800's and 1600's are curved and my usa #6 are straight.


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Posted By jbwilcox on 20 Jul 2012 11:28 AM 
Man, that chart is nothing but confusing! It did me no help at all

Why can't we speak english or at least come up with some sort of standardized terminology.

Oh, that is right, this is Large Scale we are talking about.

John

Haha I feel your pain but its pretty simple if you use the Train Li R designation, which is the radius of the curve in the closest number of feet, 
and then just go left to right and you can see the comparable switch from the other manufacturers.

So take the Train-Li R4, which has an approximate radius of 4 feet which gives it an 8 foot diameter of the curved section,
the closest Piko switch is a R5, and the LGB is a R3, and the Aristo wide radius switch.

We chose to make our switches R designation to be the closest radius in feet to try and simplify it, rather than using the European millimeter dimensions 
which would only make it harder to figure out what switch is needed. Most people chose their switches by what their equipment needs to operate.

Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's not a comparable switch, that's the problem... the frog angle plays a huge part, and the chart is biased. 

Given everything else equal (and it usually isn't... there is the caveat) in the "smaller" switches, one "number" is a big difference. For example there is a HUGE difference between a #4 switch and a #6 switch in what will run through it.

The Train-Li frog is a 5 to 5.5 frog, the Aristo #6 and the USAT #6 are true #6 frogs. They are also prototypical design in that the rails go straight "After" the frog. 

In early days, where space was always at a premium (thus 4 foot diameter curves), in order to "integrate" the switch with an existing curve, the path through the diverging leg of the switch was curved all the way through the switch. 

Made sense from a track planning and restricted space point of view. 

Now that many people are using larger locos and wider curves and longer trains, using a more prototypical design means better running. 

So, there are reasons for having smaller, more toy-like switches that can have a constant curve through the switch. 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

After a lot of research, I settled on all Train-Li track, and I've been very happy with the quality of their switches. I've got a 3-way that I haven't laid yet; I'm almost tempted to frame it and hang it on the wall, it's so beautiful  

I'll also recommend their nickel-plated products: after almost a year out in the weather, they seem good as new. And the plating is tough as nails.

Axel and Joane are hugely helpful; and as far as I know, they still offer 10% discount to 1st Class MLS members (e-normus bargain there!). 

For planning purposes, I use a centerline radius of R3'-11 1/4" (@ 22.5 degrees) for their R4, and R6'-10 3/4" (@ 15 degrees) for their R7. 

Not a dealer, just impressed,
===Cliff


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## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

Some one here (Greg) is missing a previously stated Train Line 45 R7 design feature criteria........ Stated by Axel T...... 

Yes, these R7 switches are fully curved over the entire curved length.... but that curved length is as short as possible.... So that the 
layout design may continue with EITHER a straight section or continuing curve section of the curved leg based on buyer/layout need. 

The toy like view of these R7 switches then vanishes between prototypical (added straight) or toy-like (curve continuing) as a product Flexibility feature..... 

That choice( very short curved leg) in an R7 (5.5 Frog) is deal maker at times..... 

I do hope we get back on track and help our confused original poster. 

Dennis M from GBay, WI


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Yes I am getting a little lost in all the details. So to try to simplify things, I will have all 10 foot diameters curves or greater, except in one area where I have to resort to 8 foot in one corner to make it work. BUT I am putting in a bypass (hense the switch) to avoid this area and to add some interest in the layout. Right now everything I have I think will actually work fine on the 8 foot area (all Bachman, Shay, Climax, 4-4-0, 2-8-0, 4-6-0) but want to plan for possible future additions if I choose. Will probably never do a BigBoy due to cost, etc. But might like to get a Pacific and some heavyweights at some point. The only thing on the TrainLi (which I'm leaning towards) is the R7 cost to get 4 (and probably another 2 within the year) is the cost being almost twice at $150 each. The comptroller may have heart failure. **** I may have heart failure now that I think about it.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Now I'm getting more confused. I went back to some older threads and ran into Switchcrafters where a number 6 is $107 plus a micro switch ( not sure exactly what that is but says for track power which I am for now) for $14. And ran into Sunset Valley which has a number 6 for $111 which says insulated frog but the 8's say need micro switch. Versus the TainLi R7 at $150 and who know about insulated micro my head is spinning whatever now. Does all this match up with aristo brass track? Ties closely match? what else is going to come up related to switches. PLEASE HELP SIMPLIFY THIS FOR ME.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

sorry, can't simplify if you care about all the little details you have mentioned. 

If you worry about the ties matching color etc, then you better choose for yourself, get samples of the ties and see what you like. 

In all cases, the higher the frog number the better, but cost will become an issue. 

i don't recommend anything less than a #6, although I make an exception for the Train-Li R7.... 

Yes, you found 2 more vendors.... more choices, both good ones.... 

insulated frog needs no switching of polarity for track power, all metal frog with no insulation between the "sides" needs some kind of power routing, train li does it, Aristo does it, USAT does it, and you have seen that SVRR has an add on for it. 

Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Just be aware of the differences, i.e. Code 250, Code 332. I had a mixed environment in my layout at one point in time (couldn't get a particular switch or a crossing in code 332) and used transition clamps. For my needs and operational stability these were the weak spots and I removed all 250 parts when the equivalent in 332 two became available.

Second, some handmade switches use simple spikes that overtime work themselves out of the ties and the switch falls apart. The better methodology is to use the method that uses one piece rail chair with a post that is secured on the other side. Of course much more labor intensive and more expensive. In these cases you you molded ties (hollow underneath), so that you can hide the mounts, versus them sticking all out. ("Quote: switch is tooled spiked onto composite material ties that are 3/8" x 3/8"")

Third, I found that most solid tie switches are not wired at all, extras cost, extra complication, in the sense that you need for electrical operation solder the wires to the rail (and if not timed perfectly you melt the tie strips). Optially these wires will always be an eye sore. Been there, done that







.

Price? An Aristocraft #6 is listed at $199 (Brass), and Aristo has currently none in stock by the way and if they would you you by it from the at $125. R7 switches are $150 ($135 with MLS discount) and the high power rated reed switch purhase price alone is $6 (doesn't inlcude the mounting, polyfuse, magnet.....). A retrofit kit is $25. The microswitch which has a mechnical opening (nature of microswitches) typically stops working after some time and is not reliable. Additionally you spend time to make the #6 work properly.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well now that he has all this info and totally confused, I'd recommend for you to go to a LS scale train show and check out the turnouts in person and make your comparisons . Might safe you a lot of grief later on. Later RJD


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

You might want to check out the Accucraft #6 turnouts also. They have #6 in 1:20.3 and # 6 and #8 in 1/32nd scale. Again, more choices, but perhaps a problem with matching ties or rail sizes. There is a track in front of where I'm working this week, with a "transition" rail. The rail changes sizes and there are a pair of 40' sections of rail that have a change in size in the middle of each section. 

If anyone's interested, I could take some pics? 

Robert


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

Thaat would be interesting.

Lets see a picture or two.

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The code 250 brass switches ARE on the Accucraft site, but say "pre-order" or "sold out". 

*http://www.accucraftesto...trong>** 

Greg*


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I guess I should have bought that last two I needed when I had the chance... 

Darn. 

Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm sure they will have more soon. They don't have to put up with Kader limiting their production. 

And with Aristo out of almost all track, the smart money will "make hay while the sun shines" 

Greg


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I don't need hay, I need bass. So I can go fishin....... Before the sun goes down.


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