# Help With Gas Burner



## thqt07 (Aug 31, 2008)

Ok, so up to now my experiences with Gauge 1 steam have been spirit fired locomotives - I've really only watch others running gas fired. But now I have a small gas fired engine and I'm struggling with it. It barely makes enough heat to blow the safety valves and if you run the loco it soon runs out of puff and has to stop to 'blow up' for a while. The loco is a BrandBright 48xx/14xx model - a small British locomotive. By all accounts there were only a dozen or so made, and this one seems to have been modified somewhat before it came to me. 

Reading around a little I think the best thing to do would be to add a steel mesh on the poker burner to increase the heat output. So I have dismantled the thing in preparation for that. But now I'm wondering if there is something else going on. I've taken some pictures and posted them on my facebook pages:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?a...3a792ad441

Perhaps someone more adept with this forum can grab the images and post them directly - I can't figure out how to do it... 

It looks to me as if someone may have drilled an extra ventilation hole in the 'stopper' part of the burner. Is that normal or part of the problem?? Shall I stop it up when I add the mesh or leave it as is?

Also, how critical is the alignment of the burner in the boiler flue. It looked as if it was inserted at an angle before... Is that likely to be a problem?

All advice or suggestions are welcome!

Mike


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By thqt07 on 15 May 2010 05:27 PM 
Ok, so up to now my experiences with Gauge 1 steam have been spirit fired locomotives - I've really only watch others running gas fired. But now I have a small gas fired engine and I'm struggling with it. It barely makes enough heat to blow the safety valves and if you run the loco it soon runs out of puff and has to stop to 'blow up' for a while. The loco is a BrandBright 48xx/14xx model - a small British locomotive. By all accounts there were only a dozen or so made, and this one seems to have been modified somewhat before it came to me. 

Reading around a little I think the best thing to do would be to add a steel mesh on the poker burner to increase the heat output. So I have dismantled the thing in preparation for that. But now I'm wondering if there is something else going on. I've taken some pictures and posted them on my facebook pages:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?a...3a792ad441

Perhaps someone more adept with this forum can grab the images and post them directly - I can't figure out how to do it... 

It looks to me as if someone may have drilled an extra ventilation hole in the 'stopper' part of the burner. Is that normal or part of the problem?? Shall I stop it up when I add the mesh or leave it as is?

Also, how critical is the alignment of the burner in the boiler flue. It looked as if it was inserted at an angle before... Is that likely to be a problem?

All advice or suggestions are welcome!

Mike 
Mike
Start with the simple check points of gas flow to determine if there is liquid in the line or a blockage. Is the tank flilling, if the tank valve is not allow the gas to fill or if the transfer temperature is not correc then the burner will not produce the necessary flame. The alignment of the burner could effect air flow.


----------



## thqt07 (Aug 31, 2008)

Charles,

Thanks for replying... The tank does fill, and after what seems like a sensible amount of time... It only runs for 10-15 minutes but then the tank is pretty small. The jet runs fairly steadily (given that the gas tank is in the cab and hence subject to quite widely ranging temperature as the loco heats up). It isn't particularly prone to going out or anything... What do you mean by the 'transfer temperature'?

Mike


----------



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

A few things I noticed were that the burner tube looks bent or deformed. maybe try and straighten it out. The extra air holes (4 holes) may be too much. Maybe try and slip over a brass tube and close off 2 of them in the back. How are the slots, the rear section looks like they were added later on. You can always close some off and see how it burns. If someone cut more slots in there and left the jet that was in with less slots if could be that it is runnung to lean and not enough gas due to a small jet. 

You cant maintain steam so these are all problems that would promote a inefficient burn. 

According to the revies by Marc it only gets a 10 min run time so if your run time is along those lines, you just need to get the burner to keep up with the demand. 

The angle of the burner is not that important in relation to the flue, you want it pretty much centered but most importantly you want the jet on the same plane as the burner. The other thing to keep in mind is that the tip of the jet should be in the center of the secondary air home in the burner tube. Having the 2 extra holes may be disrupting the gas flow try and align the jet with the foreward most holes.


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike:

It looks to me the previous owner really abused the burner. 

What I see:
The burner is bent. Resulted from sawing (with a Xacto?) more slots with too much force. The fire tube is normally at an angle with the burner sitting on a flat surface (as pictured in your photo) the sawing down force would bend the fire tube. Evidence the front end of the fire tube is now flat on the flat surface, the back end with the added cuts still slants. Too many slots will reduce the flame intensity, lower the overall heat output which prevents the boiler from maintaining or raising pressure (recovering) while running.

The secondary air hole in the flue press-fit disk looks like it's been enlarged - note the rough flange-out in photo 2. 

I believe the factory inlet/jet is shorter having room for only one pair (opposite one another) air mixing holes. Appears the factory one was replace, a longer one added with length four air holes. Evidence the solder joint is rough and uneven, I think a Bandbright joint would be very clean and even. This would also explain why the burner fire tube slots are perpendicular pointing directly up as intended; the replacement inlet and fire tube orientation were not aligned when the longer inlet was soldered in place.

Why there are raised nibs on the inlet jet is a mystery. 

A burner with the flame up like the Bandbright factory one runs the risk of burning the flue when the water level drops as it runs and the flue has no water covering it. A radiant burner would in large part eliminate the direct flame/flue problem.  

Bandbright Replacement:
Personally, I would definitely replace rather than repair the burner - there's just too much damage and too much work to repair it. Although Bandbright does not show a burner as an available part on their website I would image an email would get you a replacement. 

Other options:
There was an article in a past G1MRA Newsletter & Journal on converting this type of burner design to a ceramic radiant burner. I can send you a copy of the article if you email me. The article also references Kevin O'Connor's article on Radiant Burners, a copy of which can be found on the Soutnern Steam Trans Reference webpage. You might take a look at it.

Another option might be to use a slightly different design ceramic burner. Maccsteam Ltd, UK, Offers a 1.5" round ceramic burner which should fit as the Bandbright is 24-25mm. If not they offer custom ones. 

To add to Charle's suggestions on running. If you are not already, after raising pressure shut off the burner, top off the gas tank and add water to the boiler. Fire it up and go. This should extend the run. Works on Ruby and other small steamers.


----------



## thqt07 (Aug 31, 2008)

Chris and Jason, 

Thanks for both of your suggestions. The more closely I look at the burner the more I'm inclined to agree that it's been harshly treated by someone. It might not be visible in the pictures but on the driver(engineers)'s side of the burner (this is a GWR engine - I believe that the driver was always on the right looking forwards even though the trains drove on the left) the slots in the burner tube go down below the line of the others and are irregular. The first 8 slots (nearest the cab) are much wider than the others - almost junior hacksaw blade width... I would imagine that combined with all the extra air being drawn in (and slowing the gas flow??) it probably meant that the fire was restricted to the first few slots only. The uneven coloring along the length of it would certainly suggest uneven heat distribution. But then the bend can't have been helping matters either. 

I did already read the article on the Southern Steam Trains pages - it was largely that which inspired me to try to sort it out and perhaps look at radiant burners as an upgrade. Chris - I will send you a message so you can forward me the article from the G1MRA magazine. I do get the G1MRA Newsletter and Journal but I've only been a member for a couple of years and don't recall reading anything like that. 

Thanks again everyone. 

Mike


----------



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

For a radiant burner to work you need to rebuild or make a new replacement burner. If you need a hand I have all the tooling needed to make another replacement. I would need the old one as a sample though along with the jet hiolder and jet. I have the radiant versions on a few of my locos and the rest are stock poker burners. 

I believe Macsteam can make a custom influe ceramic also. Though i dont know if the 1" that the poker plug is big enough. I have a Cheddar that has a similar burner but is more like 1.25"


----------



## thqt07 (Aug 31, 2008)

Thanks for all the advice... Macsteam confirmed that the burner is too small for a ceramic replacement. The plug is actually only 17mm wide - well under an inch. 

I've Emailed Brandbright to see if they can suggest anything or provide a replacement. My only concern is that presumably the original wasn't satisfactory or it wouldn't have been modified in the first place. We'll see what happens... 

Mike


----------



## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Let me chime in late, and without access to the Facebook photos. The advice you are getting seems to be good -- efforts to "improve" burners can easily go astray as some of the solutions are counter-intuitive. 

That said, the most frequent and most-maddening problem with gas burners is a partially clogged jet. Enouigh gas gets through that you think you are okay, but you aint. Crud somehow gets into your gas tank, either a manufacturing problem or accumulated debris. It only takes a microscopic speck to ruin things. 

I suggest you remove the gas tank/fuel line'jet/burner assemby, set it up in a safe place, and light it. Performance will vary from that in the flue, but worth trying. It is also something you can try again, after any modifications, to check the results. 

Thereafter, and when cool, remove the burner and watch the gas (liquid) flow through the jet -- good steady stream (like a young boy) or weak, sputtering (old man)? (NOT around open flame or spark or indoors!) You should have a tiny, steady stream. 

Heck, you've gone this far -- go ahead and clean the jet and the tank. DO NOT insert anything in the hole in the jet -- relatively soft brass and easy to damage. Fill the tank with alcohol or acetone, shake vigorously, and pour into a coffee filter. Catching any trash? Repeat until you get a clean wash. 

Put the outer face of the jet (not attached to the gas line) next to the nozzel of a gas canister and blow back into the jet, hopefully pushing any debris back out the way it came (but not into the tank, because it is not attached, right?) 

Re-assemble, taking care neither to strip the connections, nor bend the lines, nor leave a loose, leaking joint. Refill the tank with gas and squirt out the jet -- Any improvement? (This also flsuhes any remaining solvent out.) Rejoin to the burner and light. Any change? Try running the engine again. 

This involves a little fiddling, but no heavy lifting. Even the legends in the hobby occasionally stumble over this one. If a gas burner lights but the flame won't do right, always assume that it is a clogged jet first. It frequently is and can be fixed readily, without getting the cutters out. Thereafter, try burner wrapping and the like. 

If wick trimming for alcohol burners is a Black Art, burner tuing is a Blacker one. Certainly, I've found an extensive, profane vocabulary to be absoultely no help at all. 

Good luck and best regards, Mike


----------



## thqt07 (Aug 31, 2008)

Mike,

More excellent advice... Thanks. I did take a close look at the jet to see if I could see any obstructions. I've heard gas fired types muttering darkly about blocked jets before as their locos sulk on the track. I think you are right that I should rule that out properly though. I particularly like the piece about shooting a jet of liquid gas out to see if the flow is good; will that really work? Won't it vaporize at the nozzle? Isn't that the whole point of the burner design? Or is it like those old camping stoves which squirt paraffin at a hot plate to vaporize it?? The take off point for the control valve is on the top of the tank. I suppose I'll have to hold it upside down to get liquid fuel to flow.

I see a mushroom cloud of flame and no eyebrows in my future... 

One question though - How do I get alcohol into the tank? The control valve is directly attached to the tank so I can't remove that... Can I unscrew the filler valve or something? 

Mike


----------



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

To clean the jets you remove the jet from the holder and press it onto the can of butane that you would use to fill the tank. Always remember that you clean the jets from the tip back though. Otherwise you will just plug the oriface even harder with the exces pressure. 

Also you can hold the jet up the the sun or a bright light and look though the oriface, if is is a nice clean hole then its clean. 

As for cleaning the gas tank unless you are constantly clogging jets, it should be clean. remember that the take off point on the fuel tank is vapor and not liquid so anything in the tank will always be in the liquid. You would need to remove the filler valve and the needle valve for cleaning. Get a can of brake clean from the auto parts store and quuirt is in there and shake. hold upsidedown to drain. It will need to dry for a few days before reinstalling the 2 valves.


----------



## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Two more details --

This kind of fiddling is not hard, but should best be done in a clean, well-lighted, well-ventilated ares. Understand that you are dealign with small fittings, so you don't want to torque it like a lug nut. You can break things without trying hard. (Ask me how I know.)

For removing gas fillers -- You can make a "wrench" by filing a slot in the center of the blade of an appropriately sized screw driver (flathead). The slot lets the blade straddle the filler, while the two remaining "wings" fit into the grove atop the filler valve, which is where you get the purchase to turn the valve out. You can make one in about five minutes with a Dremel tool. Patience and eye protection.

Regards, Mike

PS. Tanks are supposed to be clean, but they aren't always.


----------



## thqt07 (Aug 31, 2008)

With apologies for the delay in finishing the thread... Thanks for everyone who gave me such good advice. Here's what I ended up doing.

I called Brandbright and spoke to the guy there. He said that the burner should be fine, even if it had been hacked around a bit. As supplied the burner should produce enough heat to do the job without modification. His advice was just to make sure that the jet is clear, that the burner is oriented correctly (firing upwards), and that is is pointing straight down the boiler flue. 

So I straightened it out, cleaned out the tank and jet and reassembled it, taking care to get everything lined up correctly. Since then I have steamed it 4 or 5 times and each time it has run very nicely. Not an excessive amount of steam but holding steady at about 50lbs of pressure, which is just about where the safety starts to lift. As long as I don't push it to hard it toddles around with a couple of trucks very happily. 

Regards,
Mike


----------

