# First pictures of new Aristo wheel attachment "system"



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, I managed to do the impossible (Aristo says you cannot take the wheels off yourself).

I removed, and quite easily, a driver from my Consolidation.

First the technique:

1. Don't even THINK about just trying to use a screwdriver and just take it off. The axle screws, and usually the lock washer, are slathered in red loctite.

2. Be SURE you have a good-fitting Philips head screwdriver. Just keep going through your collection until you get one that fits snugly. There should be no rotational play, and the tip needs to fit down into the screw head.


3. The Tom Ruby method of heating the screwdriver tip and transferring the heat did not work for me. I guess it would eventually, but I was getting to the point that the screwdriver handle was melting.

4. The R.J. DeBerg method of using a small "micro torch" worked great, head the head of the screw with this fine tip for about 30 seconds, wait about 30 and then do it again. You can feel the red loctite "giving up". The wheel was warm to the touch at the rim, but not so hot I could not hold it.

Here's the torch I used found at home depot:

Model ST250K (can be bought alone, but I liked the kit)










And here is the new "bushing" pressed into the driver:










I'll be doing some more investigation on if there is some "compound" like adhesive, but it looks like this is a steel bushing pressed into the driver.

You can see the knurling between the bushing and the wheel. You can also see that the inside of the busing is smooth and tapered. (and covered with red loctite). 


The picture below shows the "knurling" in more detail:











The bushing is made from steel, as evidenced by it being magnetic (the driver itself is non-magnetic, some form of pot metal).

The bad news for those of us hoping that this bushing would allow adjustment of the wheel gage, and back to back, it appears that this bushing is tapered also. From rough measurements, the "outboard" end of the bushing is 1mm smaller that the "inboard" end.











I have more to investigate. I need to see if the bushing "hole" is continuous, or stepped. I think I will press the bushing out of the wheel to see what can be done.

In my quest to fix the problem with gage and back to back spacing, my current thinking is to turn the back of the wheel down to get an NMRA / G1MRA flange thickness.

On the consolidation, this will render BOTH the gage and the back to back way out of specifications.

So, I will need to find a way to either press the bushing further into the driver casting (which might be impossible, or split the driver casting), or maybe pull the bushing, ream out the wheel center and press it back in "deeper" .


The advantage of this method is that it leaves the tread and outer flange untouched, so I still have the plating needed for proper electrical conductivity. (the alloy with no plating is no good here).

I'm continuing the investigation, and will be putting more detail on my site:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...solidation*

Regards, Greg


----------



## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Drilling out the inside of the bushing so it's a straight hole does seem like the best idea.


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

The bushing that is sticking out in the back side of the wheel, can you grind it down so the wheel moves in closer??


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You cannot drill the hole out, the axle end is tapered. This is a tapered hole. 

Grinding down the bushing will have no effect, the axle tip fits into the taper in the bushing. 

You would either have to machine the bushing, drill the taper into it deeper (who has a tapered metric reamer?), or what I am thinking, pull the pushing out and see about somehow getting it "deeper" into the wheel. 

Greg


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

As I mentioned the bushings on mine appear to be inserted and pushed in to different depths in the wheels. Wounder if one can just try to press them in further to get the gage correct. Back to back will change some but I doubt enough to make a difference. Later RJD


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the first thing I'd try is simply see if you can press the bushing a little further into the wheel. From the photo, it doesn't look like the front is flush, but even if it ends up sticking out the front a little, you could mill if flush again if necessary. Take some calipers and measure the minor diameter of the spline. Then measure the ID of the hole on the front side. If they are reasonably the same, I doubt if you'd split the casting. Back it with a piece of metal or wood that had a hole the same size as the bushing OD over the splines. Just take it slow and easy and keep an eye open for any cracks in the driver casting. I'm sure Aristo doesn't do anything strange and wonderful when they press it in originally.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm concerned about that Dwight. 

From my first rough measurements, the bushing is 1mm larger on one end... i.e. the outer diameter of the bushing appears to vary from 8.5mm on the inside to 7.5 where the screw goes. That's a lot of taper, I think. 

I'm thinking of pressing it out and looking at it first. 

Yes, I agree, I doubt seriously that there is any sophisticated preparation of the "hole" first, the "knurling" as I call it is not of really high "relief" (I know I am using the wrong terminology here, help/correction would be appreciated). 

GReg


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

The bushing is Splined, not knurled. 

For this to work properly, the wheel has to also be splined. 

I don't understand the reasoning in machining the wheel and the bushing, but still having a smooth bore tapered connection to the axle.

Seems to me they could have used splined wheels on splined axles at the same or less cost.

Being splined, the wheels would then be easily gaged using shim washers.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not if the material is soft and the splines are shallow... 

These are pretty shallow, in my observation. 

thanks for the correction in terminology Randy, I will update my site. 

 Greg


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Perhaps you could address the axle rather than the bushing.

Maybe you could use the motor to spin the axle while holding a piece of crocus cloth, with your finger tips, against it to hone it down a hair while maintaining any taper (more or less). Then it could push further into the bushing.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, so a little paranoia on my part about breaking a wheel paid off.

I pressed the bushing out of the wheel, comes out the back side.

Good thing, there's a lip inside the wheel that caused me to mistakenly think the bushing was tapered. It's not.

The picture below shows the lip in the wheel that fixes the location of the bushing.










Greg


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, so what keeps the bushing from spinning on the axle? 

I really don't understand the reason for the bushing?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, that's the question. 

It's clear the splines on the bushing keep the wheel from slipping on the bushing. 

But the axle looks the same a before, chromed, and cast or formed, not a machined surface. Maybe it's easier to machine the bushing taper than on the wheel. I find that hard to believe, the bushing is harder material. Maybe the theory is that steel on chrome slips less than pot metal on chrome. I also find that hard to believe. 

From my personal experience lapping the 2 surfaces together made a slip free connection, and no need for loctite. 

This wheel, screw, lockwasher, and the inside of the bushing all had lots of red loctite on them. 

It would be nice to hear the theory. 

But, this curiosity aside, my main goal is to correct the wheel contour and to adjust the back to back and wheel gage to proper specifications, for better running. I don't want to run this loco as is, wedged between the rails, riding on the flange, not the tread. 

Greg


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for doing this Greg--I've been wondering how this was supposed to work.


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting, so now can you grind the bushing down?? 
Makes me want to take mine apart and look at it. 
I still don't see how it won't slip on the axel????


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, now working on the best solution, whether to thin the flange from the backside, or from the outside... pro's and con's to each method. 

Also working with several others, pooling ideas. 

Unfortunately all solutions require a lathe. 

(I do have one though). 

There are more pictures on my site, detailed ones of the insert itself. 


Regards, Greg


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I would be a little cautious about bringing the back to back in too much. I think there is about 1mm to work with before it gets too tight. The whole problem is rooted in the over thick flanges. I was over a friends house this morning to observe the first run of his 2-8-0 on Aristo track. It runs ok but close observation confirms what Greg has found. It is riding on the 1st and 4th drive axles and on the fillets. The middle two drivers are for the most part just floating. There is also some minor binding on his wide radius turnouts. Gets through ok at slow speed but a little rough. It is a great looking model.


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Thats it, if it runs,,OK ,do I mess with it. But time will tell by seeing how it wheres down .


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
I'm now wondering if the new insert is not to cure the old loose wheel problem or just to get the back to back a little wider? They did that but have caused the new problem.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Seems to me that a couple of options present themselves... 

1: 
a - Turn the flange from the backside to correct thickness. 
b - Ream out the driver center hole so the bushing can be pressed in further. 
c - Press in the bushing enough to bring the wheels to correct gauge. A tedious process of press - assemble - check gauge - press assemble - check gauge until you are there. 

2: 
a - turn the flange from the front until the gauge is correct. 

Option 2 sounds easier as it's a one-step operation instead of three. It would also allow you to correct the fillet. Would probably require grinding a custom cutting tool (no big deal). However, it would sacrifice whatever plating may be on the tire. 

BTW, are the center drivers flanged or blind?


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 31 Jul 2011 10:02 AM 
You cannot drill the hole out, the axle end is tapered. This is a tapered hole. 

Grinding down the bushing will have no effect, the axle tip fits into the taper in the bushing. 

You would either have to machine the bushing, drill the taper into it deeper (who has a tapered metric reamer?), or what I am thinking, pull the pushing out and see about somehow getting it "deeper" into the wheel. 

Greg 

Who has a tapered Metric Reamer?









The little old Press Fixer me









Got a whole set of them









JJ


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight,
Your option two is the approach I'm looking at. I've already started down that path but it will be awhile before I can get it done. 1.5mm off the thickness of the flanges. The flanges measure out now to about 3.34mm. NMRA standard is 1.5mm. They then should sit down nicely on the tread with just a little side to side play.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Flanged center drivers. 

Yes agonizing about the 2 options. #1 will give me a better result, but a lot more work. Option 2 sacrifices the plating and turning/extending the same tread taper and getting the fillet right is more work for me, I'm not a hotshot on turning tapers, and I need a custom tool, which I'm not an expert at. 

Several people have mentioned that their locos ran ok with the plating worn off, and if the Aristo motor block working well (pickup on all 8 driver wheels) the power pickup might not be an issue. 

I have seen, however, really pitted drivers when you are running on the "pot metal". 

I have checked the wear pattern on my wheels after just a few laps, and it's right at the beginning of the fillet, which confirms the measurements of wheels and track. 

I also have to investigate why I'm running on the first and 4th drivers only. I'm hoping it's just the binding in the rails on a curve, and not anything else, like a warped motor block casting (I have found those in my E8s) 


hmmm..... decisions decisions...


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
The reason I don't want to mess with the B to B is that it is already out of NMRA range. Average B to B seems to be about 39.6 to 39.8. NMRA target is 40.01 plus .48 or minus .13. If you use the 39.8 that already puts them at minus .21.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I have seen, however, really pitted drivers when you are running on the "pot metal".

Can you say "batteries?" (ducking for cover)


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 31 Jul 2011 03:49 PM 
Seems to me that a couple of options present themselves... 

1: 
a - Turn the flange from the backside to correct thickness. 
b - Ream out the driver center hole so the bushing can be pressed in further. 
c - Press in the bushing enough to bring the wheels to correct gauge. A tedious process of press - assemble - check gauge - press assemble - check gauge until you are there. 

2: 
a - turn the flange from the front until the gauge is correct. 

Option 2 sounds easier as it's a one-step operation instead of three. It would also allow you to correct the fillet. Would probably require grinding a custom cutting tool (no big deal). However, it would sacrifice whatever plating may be on the tire. 

BTW, are the center drivers flanged or blind? 
Paul and Greg,

Option 2 does sound like the way to go.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I can say batteries... not for me, but I can say it! 

Yeah, option 2 sounds like a lot easier, especially after getting a call from a friend! ;-) 

I mistakenly thought you needed to do a taper cut, but he told me that the taper would be built into the tool. 

The Aristo plating has a history of going bye bye anyway... 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

It seems to me that one should press out the bushing and then grind off the end that would be toward the outside and then press it back home in the wheel. Keep the ground off end square with the axis of the bushing. I'd also recommend marking the wheel and bushing to get the splines back in the original grooves in the wheel to maintain the original concentricity of the two. 

This way the shoulder in the wheel does not need to be messed with, nor do you need to mess with the taper in the bushing and if you need to narrow the flange you can take it off the inside and stay away from maring the plating.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

From what Greg says Semper, that won't work as there's a taper in the ID of the bushing that matches a taper on the axle. Doesn't matter how long the bushing is as the taper sets how far the axle goes into it.


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 01 Aug 2011 07:10 AM 
From what Greg says Semper, that won't work as there's a taper in the ID of the bushing that matches a taper on the axle. Doesn't matter how long the bushing is as the taper sets how far the axle goes into it. 
Dwight,
Greg said after he got the sleeve out that; "Good thing, there's a lip inside the wheel that caused me to mistakenly think the bushing was tapered. It's not."
So it seems if one trimmed the bushing it would be effective.

John


----------



## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

I haven't seen the "new" wheel set-up yet, but the fact that U guys say these things R STILL slathered up with 
red loc-tite speaks volumes to me... Could it be that somebody doesn't have all that much confidence in their new 
"bushings" !!!
Paul R...


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Wouldn't it have en easier to just key the axle? This whole thing seems like a kludge. I had been hoping they would actually improve the design, but it looks like they kept most of the problems and added complexity.

How does this make the wheels less likely to slip?


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

"My God" he says reading all this and pondering why all this is even necessary in the first place...


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

[quote So it seems if one trimmed the bushing it would be effective.Perhaps if the front of the bushing were trimmed, it may work. Reaming out the lip on the front of the hole so the bushing could be pressed in further might work as well. But neither of those options addresses what I understand to be the root cause of the problem - i.e. the flanges are too thick. Because of that you can't get both the gauge and the back-to-back set correctly at the same time. Consequently you can either have trouble running through turnouts if the BtoB is too narrow, or you can have the wheels riding on the fillets instead of the treads if the BtoB is correct. If it's worth taking the trouble to disassemble and fix, why not fix it so it's correct?









BW, it doesn't matter to me as I have no dog in this hunt. hehehe


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

The latest from Aristo. They are listening.

http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulleti...hp?t=17903


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I posted elsewhere, but had a phone call from Scott Polk this morning, he and Navin are going to China, and they will correct the overly thick flange that is causing the issue. 

Really good news, and shows that constructive criticism can help everyone. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 01 Aug 2011 07:10 AM 
From what Greg says Semper, that won't work as there's a taper in the ID of the bushing that matches a taper on the axle. Doesn't matter how long the bushing is as the taper sets how far the axle goes into it. 

But it would move the wheel farther onto the axle because the bushing is deeper into the wheel.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

they will correct the overly thick flange that is causing the issue.Will they supply new drivers for current locos or does this only apply to future runs? Just curious.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The word from Scott, is he will "make things right", which I took to mean replacement drivers for people who need/want them. 

He has said this to me before on another problem, and lived up to it, so I believe my interpretation is correct. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Kudos to Aristo! (sincerely meant)


----------

