# Why fight it ?



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Anyone reading this who is trying to decide if they want to go with track power or battery power should really read these two threads:


Using ATF on Rails to improve performance


Quick Fix for poor Conductivity at a Rail Joint (Yes, I started this one, for a legitimate reason. To help a friend running track power.)


This is the world folks running track power live in: How do I keep the rails clean? What do I do when the rail joints fail? Why does my loco stall on the turnouts? What is the best way to clean wheels? What is the best way to hard-wire around the wipers, mechanical contacts, and other means of track power pickups that fail? How do I wire a reverse loop? Why do I keep blowing fuses? How can I run more than one loco on the same track?


These are not only the typical beginners questions, they are real world problems that probably every one of us that started in track power had to solve. And yes, they can be solved. And yes, there are many very happy folks running track power with various controls systems (which is not the topic here by the way). 


But if and when you switch to battery power, all of the above issues go away and you can just run your trains. This may be boring to those who enjoy maintenance and troubleshooting problems more than running trains. 


I can tell you that every public open house we have had, someone tells me "Yours is the only one that isn't having some kind of a problem!" I witnessed this first hand during a recent progressive layout tour. 30 mins at each layout, and every track powered layout had a problem, including the one under construction (How do I do a reverse loop?).


For those of you that don't know me or haven't guessed yet, I run battery power. I ran track power for about 8 years. There are certainly pros and cons for both. Many will say that the cost and skill set involved to convert locos to battery power is prohibitive. That may be true for many. But once the conversion is done, it's done. All of the ongoing problems and maintenance associated with track power go away.


Some will say I should have titled this thread "I want to start a fight". Hey, this is a forum. A battery power forum. These are my opinions. I'm guessing there are at least a few folks that were in Nebraska last weekend that will agree.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

That's right Del, why fight it?: 

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=719116


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

AMEN!


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I love this thread. Del, I suspected you had an agenda for starting the 'quick fix', which you've now confirmed. Funny you mention that at your open houses all the track power guys seem to have problems. In our club it's all the battery guys who seem to have the issues, in fact many have gone back to track power after frustration with poor run times, charging issues, and short battery life. It's a shame you guys have to resort to these kinds of techniques to sell your products, when the reality is that each person's needs, and therefore solutions, are potentially different. Oh well...good luck and I hope you sell lots.... 

Keith


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 29 Sep 2011 11:38 AM 
I love this thread. Del, I suspected you had an agenda for starting the 'quick fix', which you've now confirmed. Funny you mention that at your open houses all the track power guys seem to have problems. In our club it's all the battery guys who seem to have the issues, in fact many have gone back to track power after frustration with poor run times, charging issues, and short battery life. It's a shame you guys have to resort to these kinds of techniques to sell your products, when the reality is that each person's needs, and therefore solutions, are potentially different. Oh well...good luck and I hope you sell lots.... 

Keith 
Well since I do sell controls, I'm sure you think that is my motivation. It is not. The quick fix post was/is legit. I got some great ideas from it which intend to pass on to my friend and the club via this month's newsletter.

I don't plan on defending every comment this thread may provoke. I just wanted to state my opinion, and that has been done. But just for the record, my run times always exceed my desired run time. I don't have any charging issues, and I have yet to replace a battery in what? 6 years now.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

I too was laughing about the ATF article and wanted to put in my two cents about battery power, but I figured I would keep it simple. I love my RCS locomotives and never have looked back at track power (as a matter of fact never even used it to begin with). No problems with battery life (3+ hours on each locomotive, plus extra battery cars= over 12 hours of continuous run time), nor had any of the problems track power people tend to have! I especially enjoy the mobility of being able to take my trains to any type of layout and being able to run. My only complain is that I can't see to convince my wife that I need more trains especially locomotives!  
Craig


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Del, I'm not fighting it. I'm trying a little of everything...well Not DCC yet...I recently purchased one of your systems and have yet to install it. I also have an older system that I think it yours or maybe not? I did get a used loco from someone that has Airwire in it that doesn't seem to work either? 

My "concern", not a complaint is that RC & Battery in trains is not even close to where Rc & Battery was at in the late 80's to early 90's for R/C Cars and Boats and the technology is even more advanced now. At that point in time, if you wanted, everything was plug and play AND interchangebable. Say Iw ant to run a futabe radio with a novak reciver and an Aristocraft electonic speedcontroller on a RC car kit by Tamiya it all fit together without any fancy diagrams or soldering or understanding anything. IT was SIMPLE! I do not find that ANY system available on the market today for trains is as simple as thngs were then for RC cars boats & planes. That frustrates me. It is no different for track power with all the wiring needed or required to do "fancy" things. Even in DCC it can get complicated even if you manage to get locos that have decoders already installed. 

I'm willing to tackle the complexity as I have time (eventually) but sheesh back then it took 20 minutes to "install" a radio system complete in most any vehicle. Not the same animal in trains. 

Chas


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 29 Sep 2011 11:15 AM 
But if and when you switch to battery power, all of the above issues go away and _*you can just run your trains*_. 

 
But, can your trains _*just run themselves*_ without continual intervention?  Can you run a bunch at once and will they avoid collisions at the crossings and othr places if unattended?  Can you easily make them slow and stop, while simultaneously making them throw turnouts and releasing the other train to the track?  Can you run them on a point-to-point reversing unit, or on to any siding for that matter, without them going off the end of the track?
 
Too limiting for me and the way we do things.  I'd rather let my track cleaner run around beforehand.  And if one sets up their track properly (i.e., soldered jumpers), track failures are extremely rare.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I want to join in on this!! Keith would you please be more specific regarding "poor run times", how long are you talking here? 

What are the charging issues in mind? 

And what type of batteries are these people using? What is the battery life time? 

I only have run battery power!! I do not run battery cars behind a loco. My batteries are all inside a loco, in fact I have been able to "shoe horn" 6 sealed rechargeable Power Sonic - 4.5 amp hour batteries in a SD70Mac loco - and it can run for about 4 hours - pulling 40 - 50 - 60 - 70 cars, the loco weighs nearly 20 pounds! This provides two sets of 18 Volt packs, I use diodes to direct current flow to the receiver board, not to cause battery equalization. But I charge with a smart charger at a 40 volt rate - tying the 2 sets together during charging cycles as a single 36 volt pack. They are done in a couple hours... 

I'm not selling anything.... 

These are for my own locos. I can do this in a Dash-9, SD40-2, SD40T-2, SDP40-2, SD60T, SD70M, SD70Ace, & in a SD90Mac ( this has 3 sets, or 9 batteries inside ) 

I have been experimenting with high current ( 35 amp ) ESC's used for R/C airplane gliders and planes to control my motors also. They work great and provide increased current load for more motors in a loco! 

There really should be no reason not to have and enjoy a successful R/C & battery converted model train in today's world of products.. 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Which demonstrates perfectly that each situation is different and why we have to resist telling others how to do things. MLS should be about educating and throwing out facts, not selling more product and throwing out disinformation.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

This kind of childishness periodically drives me away from here


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

There really should be no reason not to have and enjoy a successful R/C & battery converted model train in today's world of products.. 

I couldn't agree more, but there were a lot of products sold to guys without telling them the realities of battery handling, such as how they discharge quickly when not in use, proper charging/discharging cycles etc. Most of that is disappearing with better products like the Eneloop batteries, but there are a ton of old ones out there giving guys grief, and now to ask them to update everything is asking a lot. 

Keith


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 29 Sep 2011 12:07 PM 
Posted By Del Tapparo on 29 Sep 2011 11:15 AM 
But if and when you switch to battery power, all of the above issues go away and _*you can just run your trains*_. 


But, can your trains _*just run themselves*_ without continual intervention? Can you run a bunch at once and will they avoid collisions at the crossings and othr places if unattended? Can you easily make them slow and stop, while simultaneously making them throw turnouts and releasing the other train to the track? Can you run them on a point-to-point reversing unit, or on to any siding for that matter, without them going off the end of the track?

Too limiting for me and the way we do things. I'd rather let my track cleaner run around beforehand. And if one sets up their track properly (i.e., soldered jumpers), track failures are extremely rare.
What's the fun in just watching the trains operate THEMSELVES? My interest and enjoyment in this hobby, is to be INVOLVED in their operation. Hands on operation. I do this with my 1/20 stuff with battery/Airwire AND I do it with my 1.5"/foot, live steam ride-on stuff. Thank God the real thing doesn't have robotic trains YET! Maybe they do, but it's not railroading, IMHO.


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

Just switch to live steam and experience a whole new set of problems. 

Harvey C. 
Steamaholics Anon. #1838


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Chas, I share your frustration with the difference between model planes compared to trains. I did not understand this in my early exposure to out door trains. Later I learned it is brought on by one very large difference between the two hobbies, planes and trains, that is the customer base. Model trains are not able to support the same level of sales as R/C aircraft do. The market is far smaller for model trains, compared to planes or monster cars!! Product development and costs are not able to be spread over as vast a market to keep the costs down, and therefore make them available to our train world. This means we will get similar products, eventually, and some are already changing to the format your shared above. But it will just take more time. 

The market, or customers, need to make known to manufactures also what we want to buy! This will help change the product line for us. Stick around - I'm sure we will keep seeing more changes in the years ahead!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 29 Sep 2011 12:20 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 29 Sep 2011 12:07 PM 
Posted By Del Tapparo on 29 Sep 2011 11:15 AM 
But if and when you switch to battery power, all of the above issues go away and _*you can just run your trains*_. 


But, can your trains _*just run themselves*_ without continual intervention? Can you run a bunch at once and will they avoid collisions at the crossings and othr places if unattended? Can you easily make them slow and stop, while simultaneously making them throw turnouts and releasing the other train to the track? Can you run them on a point-to-point reversing unit, or on to any siding for that matter, without them going off the end of the track?

Too limiting for me and the way we do things. I'd rather let my track cleaner run around beforehand. And if one sets up their track properly (i.e., soldered jumpers), track failures are extremely rare.
What's the fun in just watching the trains operate THEMSELVES? My interest and enjoyment in this hobby, is to be INVOLVED in their operation. Hands on operation. I do this with my 1/20 stuff with battery/Airwire AND I do it with my 1.5"/foot ride-on stuff. Thank God the real thing doesn't have robotic trains YET! Maybe they do, but it's not railroading, IMHO.











It's not a matter of "having to," it's a matter of "can."


When you have 50 guests sitting and standing around chatting/drinking/etc., it's nice if the trains can run themselves so that you can be with your guests. Also, guests are continually amazed at the way the train can operate themselves and most think it's done by computer.

When we want to run operations on those rare occasions, the railroad is set up so that we can do that too (23 blocks and three separate wireless cab controls).

Besides, I can always run battery power if I desire. But if you're not set up properly for track power, and a guest brings over his new, as yet unconverted, this or that, he can't run it.

Believe me that I have continual involvement with the hobby, and to me there are other aspects that are more interesting than physically chasing trains around the yard. But if that's your thing, go for it!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

"Believe me that I have continual involvement with the hobby, and to me there are other aspects that are more interesting than physically chasing trains around the yard. But if that's your thing, go for it!"

That's what keeps me young and fit at 68 years old.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I know lots of people who run battery. I know lots of people who run track power. 

I agree, why fight it? 

There are pluses and minuses on track power and on battery power. 

I recommend both at various times. 

But why fight batteries that don't charge, tons of switches and jacks in my locos, not being able to fit batteries in my locos, shorter run time, not being able to run smoke? 

Yeah, why fight it? 

There are ways to be very successful using either "way". 

There's no problem with that thread on ATF fluid except the proponents (who are having apparent success) are not happy that not everyone agrees it's the ultimate solution. 

Do I need to point out the lithium vs. nicad debate in battery power? 

How about trailing car vs. on board? 

Or the lack of interoperability between all the R/C systems? 

There's two sides to this, each side has it's benefits. 

Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Where in NE is he talking about? There is no one local to clean my rails and help set up a control panel, etc. so its just simplier to help some visitors wire up their locos to run freely . my granddaughter counted 12 trains running at once. The only thing they had to watch for is IF a battery went dead. Many folks ran ALL day without changing a battery.
I don't see how I can have an open house and let anyone and everyone run on the same tracks w/o this system. And for once a year.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Even when Del puts THIS topic up, I think the great majority of us KNEW it was "tongue-in-cheek". Guessing from the amount of time spent posting on these subjects, I'm beginning to wonder when ANY of you guys have time to ACTUALLY run your trains......battery OR track power OR DCC. Whatever.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

well done Del! 
anyhow the forum was far too peacefull during the last weeks. 
your choice of topic was foolproof to change that. 
well done. 

btw. even if you would like to run clockwork-trains, that would be ok for me. 
why do you feel so disturbed by others, who do not do as you do?


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, let the flames begin, I guess to each his own, and we'll all have to get along, play along together, and have to agree to disagree. Do what you want when you want, it's still or somewhat a free country, and we'll all just have to agree to disagree, depending on which side of the fence yer on!! LOL Regal 

Battery R/C here, and I have never looked back! but I like being able to run both worlds, soon as I can afford it it's split jaws for me, and one loop R/C battery and another loop, track power. I have an idear in my head to elevate a small dogbone or loop, and have it track power to just run my older steam stuff, and have a western theme or old days theme with saloon's and jails, and such, on the elevated loop itself, sort of a back to the old days of history section. 

Far as live steam, it's neat I have nothing against it, but it's not for me, don't like burning my fingers, and or the smell of burning flesh, and all the fiddling around to get it to run, and then running or walking swiftly along with yer engine to keep it running or adjust. Not for me with a layout on the ground and bad knees and legs. Hard enough to do what I do, when the funds are available may elevate the whole dang thing. Hee Hee


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By kormsen on 29 Sep 2011 02:44 PM 
well done Del! 
anyhow the forum was far too peacefull during the last weeks. 
your choice of topic was foolproof to change that. 
well done. 

btw. even if you would like to run clockwork-trains, that would be ok for me. 
why do you feel so disturbed by others, who do not do as you do? 
Hey, I'm not at all disturbed by the way anyone runs their railroad. Its all fun. I'd just like to point out that you may be able to have more fun and less hassle (in my opinion). Its a forum. A place where we can share ideas and opinions. A place where you can get the pros and cons from users, each having different requirements, and different ideas about what is a problem and what it not. This has all been said before.

I am not disturbed. Somebody said this should be a place for education. Newcomers especially like to get all of the information (whether it be fact or just opinions) prior to making big commitments. I have a hard time on this forum because I wear two hats; a garden railroader and a vendor. I clearly make posts for both purposes on this forum, but just because I sell stuff, I can't air my two cents once in awhile? I'm not talking about control systems here, just how you make the electrical connections to your motor. Not everybody agrees with me. Fine lets hear about it. All the more info for those who haven't heard it before.

There are definitely things about this hobby that do disturb me. Somebody running track power and enjoying it is not one of them.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I mostly found track power to be frustrating. The only train that still runs on track power is my Pioneer Zephyr, it has Gary Raymond ball bearing wheels with pickups that all feed up to the locomotive. Never have to clean track and it runs great. My favorite trains to run are on battery power with a simple on/off switch. Locos with that tend to get run the most. I have a battery car also with just a switch on it. I have some of Del's products and like them fine. I also use an old 2 channel TE and the 10 channel on battery power. I use a cheap 2.4 double stick unit with Del's products. I also run live steam. So one can be flexible and do what works for them. I'm fine with folks that do all track power, all battery power or all live steam. To each his own, I'm not trying to convert anyone. I enjoy my mix. The hobby is for you to have fun, so do so.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry's middle name is cheap. JCB


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 29 Sep 2011 03:34 PM 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); I'd just like to point out that you may be able to have more fun and less hassle (in my opinion). 

yes, i can understand that.but in my opinion it would be nicer and less offensive, if you would do that by highlighting the advantages of your favorite system, not by belittling other systems.
Somebody said this should be a place for education. 
oh, yeah! i would really like that! after you have educated me here, that i have to be somewhat retarded to use faulty trackpower, you should start to make me see the light of onboard power. I have a hard time on this forum because I wear two hats; a garden railroader and a vendor. 
thank you for that information. it makes me understand this thread better. 

but, besides economic motivations, even to a battery-power fan it should be understandable, that each powersystem has its pros and cons. 
as it should be conceivable, that we all don't have the same goals, how to use our toys.

as mentioned above, automated running for instance is one of the things, that is much more complicated to realise with battery.power.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By kormsen on 29 Sep 2011 05:39 PM 
Posted By Del Tapparo on 29 Sep 2011 03:34 PM 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); I'd just like to point out that you may be able to have more fun and less hassle (in my opinion). 

yes, i can understand that.but in my opinion it would be nicer and less offensive, if you would do that by highlighting the advantages of your favorite system, not by belittling other systems.
Somebody said this should be a place for education. 
oh, yeah! i would really like that! after you have educated me here, that i have to be somewhat retarded to use faulty trackpower, you should start to make me see the light of onboard power. I have a hard time on this forum because I wear two hats; a garden railroader and a vendor. 
thank you for that information. it makes me understand this thread better. 

but, besides economic motivations, even to a battery-power fan it should be understandable, that each powersystem has its pros and cons. 
as it should be conceivable, that we all don't have the same goals, how to use our toys.

as mentioned above, automated running for instance is one of the things, that is much more complicated to realise with battery.power. 
OK ... Here we go. The advantages have been stated. Less maintenance! How about "Run the trains, not the track.". Yes, it was mentioned that each systems has its pros and cons in the original post. As well I acknowledge that not everyone has the same requirements or interests. If you will bother to go to my website (which probably won't happen, and I really don't care) you will see that my products do have automation capabilities. But again ... this thread is not about automation or any other control system, only how you get the power to your motor. Again .. If you enjoy using track power, please go do it. I don't have a problem with that.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I had a diehard track power friend tell me ,go ahead you have all the stuff to make battery power. (I think he was being a smarta**) 
year or so later he converted.. 

We've been on the same "track" ever since.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Any of you track powered fans ever tried doing this with a track powered model?









I know of at least two Garden RR's that did it with battery power. ...and of course live steam.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, 
On the two GR's that did that were the motors affected at all? I'm just curious on what would happen as I've been tempted to do something like that myself. It seems to me that it would be easier on a steam locomotive vs. diesel. Being a diesel guy I'm would be worried about the motors in the trucks verses the battery components in the shell. Very cool picture indeed. 
Craig


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

The two layouts I knew of were using LGB mogul locos which have the motors mounted well up in the block. 
If I was using geared locos I would seal the bottoms of the blocks to be safe. 
As long as the tracks are just covered and not completely submerged the motors will be OK. You wouldn't want to "attack" the water too fast either.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not sure how that is any different than plowing snow...which I do using DCC every winter.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm sure that many of us could come out with scenarios that only one "camp" could accomplish. 

I'm not at all motivated though to consider battery power because I can run trains on flooded tracks... 

Don't quit your day job to become a salesperson if this is a motivational reason to switch! 

;-) 


ATTENTION: notice smiley above!!! 

Greg


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

I love seeing successful railroads using each type and in a couple cases both (powered and un-powered sections). Competition through diversity makes me very happy. 

I run radio control on my engines but also love watching the capabilities of DCC on other's railroads. Most of my locos are battery powered but also are switchable to track power. The switchable ones will run on any track power (AC, DC, 12-30 volts). I'm the poster child for doing what works best for "ME". I built my own RC system because it suited "ME". To each his own, so long as they keep their lines clear and the trains on time (or close), and the beer delivered cold! 

Here's a video with solar powered switching.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg 
friend, LOL, just joking. 
You will NEVER go battery reguardless, because it would be humbling. 
I'm not meaning it in a bad way. 

And I will never try to get you personally to change. 

Just like me NOT using concrete for roadbed, I have tried to be willing, but I just can't.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By rmcintir on 30 Sep 2011 05:23 PM 
I love seeing successful railroads using each type and in a couple cases both (powered and un-powered sections). Competition through diversity makes me very happy. 

I run radio control on my engines but also love watching the capabilities of DCC on other's railroads. Most of my locos are battery powered but also are switchable to track power. The switchable ones will run on any track power (AC, DC, 12-30 volts). I'm the poster child for doing what works best for "ME". I built my own RC system because it suited "ME". To each his own, so long as they keep their lines clear and the trains on time (or close), and the beer delivered cold! 

Here's a video with solar powered switching.



You appear to have your sound system connected backwards. I believe that if you look closely at your GP-9, you'll find an "F" on the "short hood" side just behind the steps. "F" means forward.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 30 Sep 2011 09:22 PM 

You appear to have your sound system connected backwards. I believe that if you look closely at your GP-9, you'll find an "F" on the "short hood" side just behind the steps. "F" means forward. 
The sound has a front and back? 
Scot


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I view this discussion from the perspective of a happy fence sitter. 

One thing to keep in mind. If you design your layout and maintain it such that track power works reliably, almost anyone who shows up with a locomotive, regardless of it being track power, battery, or live steam, can run on the layout. 

So far, based on where I live and other factors, switching from track power to anything else would not save any effort or improve reliability. I find that as long as I sweep the track before running most of the trains, everything is fine. I do have a couple trains that are quite finicky but their issues seem to be a combination track power pickup issues as a result of being too willing to jump the track. I also have several locomotives and street cars that tend to clean up the track after a few passes, so I very seldom have to wipe down the track. 

I know the eventually I will have at least one live steam engine. I also am pretty sure that I will end up with one or two that run on batteries. Once I have had some experience with non track power I may modify my opinion some but somehow, I doubt it. Of course one of my long term goals is to be able to power the street cars from overhead power, but that seems to be asking for frustrating experience. 

Tom


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I am not a fence sitter, and as previously mentioned only have experience with R/C and battery set-ups, and have only run on very large layouts. This brings me to think that some part of this discussion is missing an important factor, that being just how large someone's layout is? 

This is I think a big factor in the choice of power used, but we don't really think about it much. I'm pretty sure most modelers have a nice small to medium sized layout in a residential backyard. This would certainly fit in the track power camp and be a good solution. But what happens as a layout grows in size? When does it become unrealistic to even consider track power as a way of life anymore !!? Than one is left with using batteries and the simplicity that offers. Running miles of wire and it's problems just is not going to work, let alone extensive track cleaning chores to run. As Marty pointed out!, who's gunn'a come clean the tracks?? ha ..... 

I will admit I'm building a very large layout, and will not even be thinking about running wires everywhere to run as such..... 

How we run our toys is not always obvious, and why may be over-looked.... 

WE each build in the room we have and hopefully "have fun" doing so!! 

So guys - go run your trains, have some fun, invite someone over to run with you! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If my requirements changed I would go battery in a flash Marty, as is pretty obvious I'm more concerned with trying to do the right thing than entering a popularity contest, or worrying about "humbling" myself by changing my mind. 

The things I want from the hobby point me to track power, and I have chosen components that make track power easy. My track cleaning tool is nature herself, sometimes a hose, and sometimes a 5 minute wipe with a cloth to remove bugs, ants, dust. 

As opposed to people wanting to run their trains in tracks submerged in water







, I want sound in all locos, and no trailing cars. Battery power would not allow me to run some of the really small locos, and also would cost too much money in batteries and chargers. So, call me cheap, I really don't want to spend the extra money on battery power. 

But I thought you were experimenting with ladder track on your highline? It's not all concrete is it really? (and of course your riding scale track). 

All that matters is your railroad performs for you, and makes you happy. 

Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 30 Sep 2011 09:35 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 30 Sep 2011 09:22 PM 

You appear to have your sound system connected backwards. I believe that if you look closely at your GP-9, you'll find an "F" on the "short hood" side just behind the steps. "F" means forward. 
The sound has a front and back? 
Scot 


Yes, two toots for starting forward and three toots for starting in reverse.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I removed the ladder and installed concrete on the highline . I also removed most of the steel ladder and back to concrete by the elevator.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 01 Oct 2011 12:41 AM 
Posted By Scottychaos on 30 Sep 2011 09:35 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 30 Sep 2011 09:22 PM 

You appear to have your sound system connected backwards. I believe that if you look closely at your GP-9, you'll find an "F" on the "short hood" side just behind the steps. "F" means forward. 
The sound has a front and back? 
Scot 


Yes, two toots for starting forward and three toots for starting in reverse. 

Regardless of the marking on the engine, each RR had its own normal operating orientation, long hood forward or short hood forward. You also have to know what convention the railroad used, or the particular crew followed, as to which way a train is oriented when on the road or switching. Is that engine on the Front of the train or the Rear? If you consider that the engines in the video are on the Front, then the sounds are correct... Two toots when the TRAIN was to pull the train; i.e.: moving "Forward".

At least this sound system sounded the horn BEFORE the engine started to move. I have seen many systems where the train has moved nearly car length or more before it produces the whistle/horn signal. The whistle/horn signal is to warn people that the train WILL BE moving, not that it is ALREADY moving... The signal means, "Get out of the way, I MIGHT run over you.", not, "Hey I AM running over you, it's too late to get out of the way now."


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 01 Oct 2011 12:41 AM 
Posted By Scottychaos on 30 Sep 2011 09:35 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 30 Sep 2011 09:22 PM 

You appear to have your sound system connected backwards. I believe that if you look closely at your GP-9, you'll find an "F" on the "short hood" side just behind the steps. "F" means forward. 
The sound has a front and back? 
Scot 


Yes, two toots for starting forward and three toots for starting in reverse. 
But you're forgetting that some railroads; Great Northern, Southern, NS, Pennsy?, had their locomotives set up to run long hood forward. So in fact his model of running long hood forward is correct but the USA train's paint scheme designating the F is in the incorrect place. Some railroads felt/feel that running long hood forward helps keep the crew safer because the hood provides a crumple zone.
Craig


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Marty, did know "hear" about that, was always curious how it went. Did you have too much instability? Never mind, don't want to derail the thread, glad to know you are on the "straight and narrow" so to speak, and it's working for you. 

Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks guys,

I was merely informing him as to what the convention is and that the engine is marked "Forward" or "Front." For all I know, he was unaware of this convention, or about two and three toots for direction, and this was the opportunity to inform him.

Seems that at least someone didn't know about the forward and reverse aspects of the sound system, so maybe someone learned something here.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think it was worth mentioning. 

Greg


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 01 Oct 2011 12:19 PM 
Thanks guys,

I was merely informing him as to what the convention is and that the engine is marked "Forward" or "Front." For all I know, he was unaware of this convention, or about two and three toots for direction, and this was the opportunity to inform him.

Seems that at least someone didn't know about the forward and reverse aspects of the sound system, so maybe someone learned something here.

I think it was worth mentioning. I was pointing out that you can't rely on manufacturers to have correct paint schemes. 
This is a major problem on real railroads too. In fact the BNSF has a rule that you can't say pull and shove, but rather ahead and back up (in terms of direction of the locomotive, and what end is marked F). The new guys get mixed up all the time when you put a SW unit on the point facing backward. So instead of telling the engineer to pull (which doesn't matter which direction your facing) they tell him to go forward (but it's actually toward the person that the engineer will go). Then they realize their mistake and get all fluster and end up telling the engineer to pull! (but it's against the rules 

It's kind of funny to mess with new people that way!
Craig


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg 
I basicly used the wrong stuff, its what we had in town at the local lumber yard. 
everything seemed to run well last open house weekend.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Great... I was curious about the outcome of your ladder "experiment". Do you think you will try it again sometime with different materials? 

When I saw the pictures of your ladder track, it made sense to me, since it was on a built up area and would probably have settled a bunch if concrete was poured there. As I remember, you did not speak a lot about why you tried it. 

Sorry for the "derail" on the thread guys, been wanting to understand this for a while. I'll go back to my hole... 

Greg


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

I still consider myself a newbie even though I've been running trains for about 4 years now and am in the process of a major expansion. But I made the decision at the beginning to go with RC/Battery and have never regretted it. The most I have to worry about cleaning my track is getting the redwood needles off the rails to avoid a major derailment. 

It's a bit costly initially but well worth the hassle free issues... 

One question I do have...can I run track power so I can run lights in passenger cars or is it just better to have a battery pack onboard each. 

Richard


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

Posted By toddalin on 30 Sep 2011 09:22 PM 
Posted By rmcintir on 30 Sep 2011 05:23 PM 
I love seeing successful railroads using each type and in a couple cases both (powered and un-powered sections). Competition through diversity makes me very happy. 

I run radio control on my engines but also love watching the capabilities of DCC on other's railroads. Most of my locos are battery powered but also are switchable to track power. The switchable ones will run on any track power (AC, DC, 12-30 volts). I'm the poster child for doing what works best for "ME". I built my own RC system because it suited "ME". To each his own, so long as they keep their lines clear and the trains on time (or close), and the beer delivered cold! 

Here's a video with solar powered switching.



You appear to have your sound system connected backwards. I believe that if you look closely at your GP-9, you'll find an "F" on the "short hood" side just behind the steps. "F" means forward. 
The "F" is on the long hood for Pennsy. Engineer is even facing the right way on the GP9 from the factory. When it reversed and pushed the cars back three toots sounded. It is set up correctly. Also, you will note that the RS3's "F" is on the long hood and gave two toots when it started. On the Aristo RS3 the engineer was facing the wrong direction, Ed Headington pointed out that I should fix him a while back so I did. Sometimes when I stop a loco in reverse the Phoenix will sound the stopping horn and then two toots for forward but that is rare. I think I have the timing fixed for that.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By rmcintir on 01 Oct 2011 03:59 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 30 Sep 2011 09:22 PM 
Posted By rmcintir on 30 Sep 2011 05:23 PM 
I love seeing successful railroads using each type and in a couple cases both (powered and un-powered sections). Competition through diversity makes me very happy. 

I run radio control on my engines but also love watching the capabilities of DCC on other's railroads. Most of my locos are battery powered but also are switchable to track power. The switchable ones will run on any track power (AC, DC, 12-30 volts). I'm the poster child for doing what works best for "ME". I built my own RC system because it suited "ME". To each his own, so long as they keep their lines clear and the trains on time (or close), and the beer delivered cold! 

Here's a video with solar powered switching.



You appear to have your sound system connected backwards. I believe that if you look closely at your GP-9, you'll find an "F" on the "short hood" side just behind the steps. "F" means forward. 
The "F" is on the long hood for Pennsy. Engineer is even facing the right way on the GP9 from the factory. When it reversed and pushed the cars back three toots sounded. It is set up correctly. Also, you will note that the RS3's "F" is on the long hood and gave two toots when it started. On the Aristo RS3 the engineer was facing the wrong direction, Ed Headington pointed out that I should fix him a while back so I did. Sometimes when I stop a loco in reverse the Phoenix will sound the stopping horn and then two toots for forward but that is rare. I think I have the timing fixed for that. 

Thanks,

Clears that up. The geeps I have (2), and have seen, all had the "F" on the short hood side. The video didn't have a close-up of that area that I could detect (and I was looking for it).


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

For the passenger car lights, go ahead and use track power for the lights. Use the LED versions and install a 220uf capacitor after the bridge rectifier (35WVDC minimum) to keep intermittent/dirty track from making the lights flash. L like the light strips that are sold and I personally use the one from Train-Li which has 6 leds and runs on 8 to 24 volts AC/DC/DCC/PWC. Holes match the LGB ones perfectly in the roofs. Only problem with these is they are too long for some cabooses(will not fit in the cupola), but I believe the man in the cupola should be watching the train/track, not reading!!!!


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