# Lighting a butane E6



## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

Before my buddy blows a gasket can anyone give us the procedure for

lighting a butane fired E6....................is a suction fan required to keep the

fire lit....................and must you keep the blower open a bit if you stop 

engine for a moment or so????

I understand there is no instruction book shipped with the E6


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## Alan in Adirondacks (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Sal,

The E-6 will need to be lit and run just like an alcohol fired engine. Here is a link to the Accucraft N&W J 611 butane fired manual:

http://www.accucraft.com/manuals/AT%2032%20NW%20611%20Butane%20Manual.pdf

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Alan


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

That link does not work. Later RJD


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

The link works on Chrome. Not sure about other browsers.

David Meashey


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Alan................I was afraid of that.......he has no suction fan.....YET


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

link dont work


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## Alan in Adirondacks (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello all,

I am computer challenged. Here is the URL for the link that you can enter manually:

"http://www.accucraft.com/manuals/AT%2032%20NW%20611%20Butane%20Manual.pdf"

http://www.accucraft.com/manuals/AT 32 NW 611 Butane Manual.pdf


Best regards,

Alan


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Called accucraft and yes you need to have the blower there bad. Maybe they will get us a operating manual. Later RJD


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I thought the whole point of a butane burner was that it didn't need a fan or blower. Even a ceramic burner won't go out if there is no draft ?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

If it does indeed need a draft, you can always add some pressure into the boiler so that you can use the blower.
I remember seeing a couple of people in the UK in days gone by, using bicycle pumps normally connected into the tender pump line to build pressure into the boiler and then light the burner with the blower cracked open.
The trick would be to not have much water in the boiler so that once the fire is lit, the pressure will quickly come up and then you can keep slowly pumping water in from the tender until the boiler is full.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

The Accucraft E6 is not the only Butane fired loco that needs a suction fan. The Aster JNR C62-2 last version needed a suction fan too in order to keep enough fresh air going into the fire box during start up. While not all ceramic burner locomotives need a suction fan, it would not surprise me to find others that do. Poker burners generally have their own individual flue tubes which automatically assists the flow of hot gasses through the boiler, but a boiler equipped with a ceramic burner may have a traditional firebox with separate flue tubes and without draft from a suction fan or steam blower, the gasses may have trouble finding their way out and letting fresh air in. It would be interesting to know if this latter design was used on the E6 and the Butane fired J 611.

Ross Schlabach


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

So with over two years to design, build, test, build, test, and finally produce... Nobody thought it would be a good idea to come up with a manual to include with this locomotive?


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## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

I do not yet have a fan. I experimented with lighting it without a fan. The flames come back into the cab and closing the fire door simply snuffs the flame. I'm sure that the fan will make all of the difference.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I found by playing with the door box door and leaving it cracked to keep air flowing I could get the burner to stay lit and eventually got the draft working but that takes more time to get it up to steam. Later RJD


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## Steve Ciambrone (Feb 25, 2014)

I have several steam boats and locos with Ceramic burners and they do not need any draft, the same as any gas fueled burner it creates it own by the mixture of air and fuel at the jet holder. It sounds like the jet needs to be adjusted for a proper air fuel ratio. A recent acquisition had instructions to adjust the jet so the tip is at the middle of the air inlet, it worked out fine the burner lit immediately and it runs fine. I did not make any further adjustments. It was a Cheddar Iver Loco, my other burners are in my large steam launch and a few smaller burners.
I light off ceramic burners with a very low gas setting let the brick material start to glow then turn up the gas, it should then glow a bright red, with very little flame on top of the brick. The door should be able to be shut, because the air brought into the burner should all come from the air inlet in the jet holder, same as a poker burner.

Hope this helps
Steve


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve
" It sounds like the jet needs to be adjusted for a proper air fuel ratio'
Actually the design of the system on this locomotive and the J611 requires a fan and blower to fire and operation properly through the process of a steam up. The suggestion of adjustment of air fuel ratio will not get the job done.
Unfortunately, no one seems to have let customers know about the design, procedures and requirements necessary to operate the locomotive.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, you are familiar with both the need for a fan and not need for one in the ceramic burner, would you please tell us why the difference? I know I'd much appreciate it as I'm sure others would also. Thank You


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree with Charles that it may be the fuel mixture

Try sliding the the gas jet further back in its tube and lock

jim

PS on the alcohol loco it is hard to light as the alcohol line is long
but once started I get a great fire. I will work on ways to prime it


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim,

The alcohol level in the sump is at about the same level as the top of the copper supply line to the burner. Therefore the wicks need to inserted into the wick tubes far enough to extend down on either side of the supply line. To light my E6's alcohol burner I open the fuel valve and wait a minute or so after seeing the alcohol flow inside the silicone tubing supply line. This ensures that the wicks get saturated. Then I use a butane fire lighter with the flame adjusted to a high setting, and don't turn on the chimney fan until after the wicks are alight and the fire door shut. The firebox is small and there's a metal baffle (similar to a "brick arch") right above the wicks, so the butane lighter's flame snuffs out easily, and it's difficult to see when the wicks are alight. 

If I try to light the burner with the chimney fan on then the butane lighter flame is snuffed immediately. Maybe I'll try lifting the fan partially out of the chimney to reduce the draft while lighting.

Steve Shyvers


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I think on all my locos, I am able to light the wicks FIRST, and then turn on the suction fan.
On the Accucraft Hudson, I even found that opening the firebox door before placing the lighter under the 'notched' burner made it light even easier.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

David,

I remember the discussion about the "notched" burner but could not find the original thread. Because the E6 trailing axle frame is so large I'm not sure that there sufficient clearance to get the business end of a butane lighter underneath the burner. But I will check the next time the loco is on the track.

Steve Shyvers


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve Shyvers said:


> David,
> 
> I remember the discussion about the "notched" burner but could not find the original thread. Because the E6 trailing axle frame is so large I'm not sure that there sufficient clearance to get the business end of a butane lighter underneath the burner. But I will check the next time the loco is on the track.
> 
> Steve Shyvers


You might be able to do it as I noticed flame shooting out below the engine at rear truck. Turning loco up side down you can see some holes there. Later RJD


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

There are two types of ceramic burner systems. The type used by Accucraft is an unbalanced one which means that the air pressure in the smokebox needs to be less than that in the firebox (Drafted)

The one I use is a balanced one where the smoke box is not sealed and thus equal pressure on both sides. The pressurized butane draws the air through the jet holder just like a poker burner and it lights and burns just like one except quieter and more efficiently.

When I first started using ceramic burners, I tried both systems and decided the balanced system was best for me

I know this is no help to Accucraft users and just a point of information. 

A conversion would require opening up the smoke box and sealing the bottom of the burner box in the firebox. After that some jet changes may or may not be needed


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, thank you very much for the explanation of the differences in the two types of ceramic burners. LG


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow, I'm very interested in understanding the difference between balanced vs. unbalanced, and I don't _quite _get your explanation, is there a place I can read up on this Bill? I do not want to derail this thread with questions I'm sure everyone else already understands.

Thanks, Greg


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Hi Greg
It took me over a year to understand this system. there is nothing I know of that lays this out. 
The coal, alcohol and Accucraft boilers depend on a draft to keep the fire burning similar to a fire in the fireplace.
The draft draws air around or through the fire. without the draft, the fire goes out.
My style of ceramic burner has no holes or openings for a draft to bring air in and uses the butane pressure and the air drawn in through the holes in the jet holder similar to a propane torch. The burner is mounted in an air tight box and the gas and air mixture is forced up through the holes in the ceramic material. 
I will be building a burner on my CB&Q shortly and will expand that burner portion of the thread to explain it more.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Wow, I'm very interested in understanding the difference between balanced vs. unbalanced, and I don't _quite _get your explanation, is there a place I can read up on this Bill? I do not want to derail this thread with questions I'm sure everyone else already understands.
> 
> Thanks, Greg


G1MRA has had numerous articles since the 70's when some members started using gas.
I'm not sure if there is anywhere that one can get the facts.
Maybe in Marc Horovitz's book, or the Steam in the Garden one - not sure.
I'm NOT a gas person, but this is what I understand.
One is the same as alcohol burners where the air can enter around, or through, the burner and the smokebox is sealed so there needs to be a created draft.
The other has the smokebox open, normally a hole in the bottom, and I guess the draft is created through the action of the burner pushing air through the flues.
Not sure if that helps!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

David's explanation is right on
The Brits have been using ceramic burners for years and in fact I got valuable information from them mostly in emails.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Saw an Accucraft E6 today. Very nice looking engine.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> The other has the smokebox open, normally a hole in the bottom, and I guess the draft is created through the action of the burner pushing air through the flues.


I can confirm that most small Accucraft locos require the smokebox be 'open' - either with lots of holes in the bottom or by leaving the door open. There are several threads mentioning Ruby or FWRR butane burners that won't stay lit.

Makes me wonder if all they need is a good blower!


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## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

Before I left for ECLSTS, I contacted Jay Kovac and asked him to bring a draft fan for me to buy. It took some tinkering and advice from others who have experience with draft fans, but I managed to get steam up. As soon as there is even a small amount of pressure, the draft valve can be opened a pressure comes up surprisingly fast. During my first 30 minute trial run, it steamed very well. Once I get fully used to this steaming system and particular engine, I believe that it will be a pleasure to run.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> As soon as there is even a small amount of pressure, the draft valve


Llyn, I assume the 'draft valve' is the same as a 'blower' on an alkie ? Is that what Wuhu call it?


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Pete
I think the Wuhu uses a similar system to mine which does not require drafting thus no blower


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## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

The E6 is offered in gas and alcohol versions. Looks as if both versions use the same boiler which means that both have a blower/draft valve. I was talking to Bob Clark (who imports the Wuhu locos) and he said that he asked Wuhu to design so as to not need a blower.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Llyn, and they did, I am very happy with my G5 ceramic burner. BTW, the Mamod has the same type of ceramic burner in the Brunel as the G5. LG


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick Jr said:


> Llyn, and they did, I am very happy with my G5 ceramic burner. BTW, the Mamod has the same type of ceramic burner in the Brunel as the G5. LG


It is very easy to get confused between the Accucraft E6 and the WuHu G5 . . or is it just me.

So the Accucraft ceramic burners in the J611 and the E6 both need a fan and a blower, but the WuHu G5 has been designed to not need one. Is that what I am understanding?

Good to hear about the Brunel, Nick, as I have one on order! But none of this answers what I will find when I put a Regner ceramic burner in/under my Aster 8550 boiler. But that's the subject of a different thread.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, Mamod also offers just ceramic burners, and if I may add, Terry is a pleasure to work with and they stand by their product. LG


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes the Accucraft boilers need a draft as its a full locomotive design with a drafted flue arrangement. Bill takes a uses a sealed firebox and a different flue arrangement ratio to get similar results, BUT his cannot be changed to alcohol with the same boiler nor can a Wuhu design. As we are using alcohol as our primary fuel, adding the optional butane version is smart using the same boiler as its a more efficient boiler than a poker style option. Just compare to any of the poker designed 1/32 locos. They are drastically different in performance.

I have here a model of the E6 so I can draft up the manual now that I have returned from York. It will be emailed out to the people that already took delivery and will be included with the new shipments. 

Accucraft has and always will stand by their offerings. Any problems should always be brought to the attention of the dealer so that we can rectify it. That's just warranty 101, cant be fixed it we don't know about it.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Kovacjr said:


> Yes the Accucraft boilers need a draft as its a full locomotive design with a drafted flue arrangement. Bill takes a uses a sealed firebox and a different flue arrangement ratio to get similar results, BUT his cannot be changed to alcohol with the same boiler nor can a Wuhu design. As we are using alcohol as our primary fuel, adding the optional butane version is smart using the same boiler as its a more efficient boiler than a poker style option. Just compare to any of the poker designed 1/32 locos. They are drastically different in performance.
> 
> I have here a model of the E6 so I can draft up the manual now that I have returned from York. It will be emailed out to the people that already took delivery and will be included with the new shipments.
> 
> Accucraft has and always will stand by their offerings. Any problems should always be brought to the attention of the dealer so that we can rectify it. That's just warranty 101, cant be fixed it we don't know about it.


I take it that the manual will only be available for your customers that ordered from you. Later RJD


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Jay
You are correct to a certain extent except that the flue arrangement can be the same. I recently converted an alcohol Daylight to my ceramic system without changing the flues. The main difference is in the firebox and smokebox venting.

I was surprised when I found out that Accucraft had gone with the ceramic system they did.
The alcohol boiler does require a blower but that tube could be used or not depending on whether or not they made it ceramic. On my earlier builds, I put in a 5/32" tube from the backhead to the front tube sheet in case I ever wanted to convert to alcohol but I soon realized that I never would prefer alcohol over ceramic.

Since they now offer both options, they could easily change the smokebox and burner design to get a more user friendly ceramic engine.


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