# Question about water...



## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

So let me start out by saying this. I was going to a local club meet a few days ago and rushed out to the local super market to find distilled water, they were all out. I went to a pharmacy and they only had one gallon of distilled water left to run live steam. I was thinking that I better plan on finding a way to purify or distill my own water in large quantities if I want to stay in this hobby. So this brings me to my current dilemma.

I had already been thinking about water filtration systems. I have a Berkley water filter for hurricanes in case I need to purify pond water from the lake right next door to me. I am not sure if that would be enough for live steam trains. I don't think the Berkley has sodium fluoride filtration so if I were to use it for a train it would cause lime deposits to eventually form. I heard a lot about pro pure filters from a talk show I listen to and while it's amazing for water filtration I thought since it has available sodium fluoride filters it may be what I'm looking for to produce endless clean water for use for my live steam models.


ProPur Water Filters


This is the product I'm looking at and I know it's pricey but you get what you pay for. It has colloidal silver embedded into the filter which kills 99% of most bacteria plus it has the available sodium fluoride filters which means 0 heavy metals coming through this filter. Would this setup, besides making for good drinking water, be suitable for live steam?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Water filters cant be used..ion exchange filters cant be used.. 
they dont remove the minerals, they only change them.. 
or they remove some, but not all of the mineral "hardness".. 

Use distilled water only..nothing else will do. 
(maybe Reverse Osmosis water..but im not sure if that removes *all* minerals) 

I was thinking that I better plan on finding a way to purify or distill my own water in large quantities if I want to stay in this hobby. 

I doubt that VERY much!  
unless you plan to run your live steam locomotives every single day, for several hours every single day, for years on end.. 
in that situation, you might have problems with water supply..otherwise, not so much.. 

One gallon of distilled water lasts me about 2 years.. 
in a busy year, I might go through a whole gallon.. 
people who run live steam locomotives "a lot" might use 2, 3 or even 4 whole gallons in one year..thats a lot of running! 

I cant imagine anyone in the live steam hobby would need to purify their own water..it just doesnt happen. 
distlled is cheap and plentiful..if you spend more than $5 a year on water, for your own use, you are probably in the 1% of really radical super-users!  
any kind of purification system is simply not necessary..doesnt even need to be considered.. 
next time you are at the store, buy 5 gallons..I bet that will last you several years.. 

Scot


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You don't need "Sterile" water... it will be Sterilized in use!

But you don't want anything left in the boiler when the H2O is gone. So REMOVING the germs/bacteria is one thing you want (not just kill them) so their "remains" don't form part of the scale that forms on a boiler as the water is evaporated.

If you want to know if you have "JUST" H2O, for use in the boiler, buy a brand new glass coffee pot and put the water you want to test in it and boil it all(?) away, then do it again and again and again. After you have boiled away 4 or 5 gallons of the water from the source you have, look at the glass of the coffee pot... Especially the bottom. Is it now cloudy? If not, then maybe you have a method of removing the non-H2O "stuff" from the water. If it IS cloudy, then the source is probably not good enough.

WARNING: Maybe you don't want to boil it ALL away... don't want to damage the glass coffee pot! Maybe fill the pot and boil 3/4 of it away, then add more water (let the pot cool a bit so it does not shatter due to the thermal shock) and boil 3/4 of that away, until you have improved the winter-time household humidity by 4 or 5 gallons (the more you evaporate, the higher the concentration of non-H2O in what is left). The idea is to concentrate the non-H2O content of the water to see if there is any non-H2O.

I do not have a handle on how much non-H2O is acceptable, so I cannot state any sort of absolute as to how many gallons to evaporate or how clear the remains should be (or how to measure it), but I suspect that if the "remains" is at all noticeably cloudy or if the glass has any sort of discoloration or scale after 4 or 5 gallons of water have been evaporated then it is probably not acceptable.

How many gallons of water would you expect to use in the typical lifetime of a live steamer? It would be nice if the boiler lasted as long as the mechanical parts.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I picked up a used Durastill from CL about 5 years ago, it makes about 8 gallons in 24 hours and the storage tank hold 5 gallons. Works great but NEW they are very pricy.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I feel so blessed to live somewhere where our tap water comes from the snow melting on the mountains. 
I agree with Scot, in reality you don't use a lot of water in one year, even running big locos, so perhaps look around to find a place with a good price on the gallons. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I was curious, so I did the math..One gallon of water = about 50 runs for an Accucraft Ruby. 

Ruby has a 80ml boiler capacity..it wont even use the full 80ml on one run, (or it shouldnt at least) 
lets say 75ml is reasonable for one run.. 
a gallon of water = 3785 ml. 
3785ml/75ml = 50 runs. 

There are probably (rare) people who might do one run a week! 
52 runs a year, and will use a whole gallon.. 
but thats very unusual in my experience..most people run much less than that.. 

I attend about 5 steamups a year..I run my two locomotives once at each steamup, 
thats 10 individual runs a year.. 
at that rate, I will use one full gallon in 5 years! wow.. 
(I never actually kept track before! I bring a gallon to a steamup now and then, but I always leave it behind 
and it becomes "communal water"..) 

maybe im a "light" user, compared to most..(and I currently dont run at home) 
but still, I bet the vast majority of "small scale live steam" hobbiests use less than one gallon a year.. 
that would be 50 runs for a Ruby..or 25 or so runs for one of the larger engines.. 

Scot


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

My Berkshire will go through a gallon in 2 hours give or take, depending on load.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

WalMart carries distilled water for $0.84/gal. When they get it in just buy it.


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## Bill4373 (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree with Bob. grocery store, drug store, Wal-Mart, K-Mart, etc and buy several gallons. Or you coulde buy a 6-pack (of distilled water). If you're worried about running out, when you use a gallon, replace it. 6 gallons of distilled water will last forever unless you are running 6 Berkshires... 
.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

I myself would probably use a gallon in one to two month time. I run a lot and I belong to a club that has another live steamer who runs a lot and a few other live steamers that come by. JEFF RUNGE, I looked at Durastill and it seems pretty good but it requires 115 volt outlet and it gets REALLY hot from the sounds of it. The Propur system is gravity fed, requires no electricity which is why I was interested in it, not just for live steam but for drinking use as well. 


Durastill 

Link to Durastill 


Pro Pure water filter 

link to Propur filter specifications. According to their site it filters out the following. 

Pathogenic bacteria 
Cholera, Typhoid, Salmonella, Serratia, Fecal Coliform >99.99% 
E. coli - 100% 
Cysts 
Cryptosporidium Parvum, Giardia Lamblia - 100% removal 
Sediment 
Down to 0.8 micron - 100% 
0.3 - 0.5 micron >99.99% 
Turbibity >99.7% 
Contaminants 
Chlorine, Chloramines, COD (Chemical Oxygen Demand), Lead, Arsenic, Nitrite, Pesticides, Herbicides, VOC's, Iron, Aluminum, THM (Trihalomethanes), PAH (poly-aromatic hydrocarbons), and other heavy metals. 
Chlorine - 99% 
COD .75% 
Lead - 99% 
Arsenic - 90% 

VOC’s >95% 

Alachlor, Atrazine, Benzene, 

Carbofuran, Carbon tetrachloride, Chlorobenzene, 

Chloropicrin, 2,4-D, Dibromochloropro-pane, 

o-dichlorobenzene, p-dichloroben-zene, 1,2-dichloroethane, 

1,1-dichloro-ethylene, cis-1,2-dichloroethylene, Trans-1,2-dichloroethylene, 1,2-dichloro-propane, cis-1,3-dichloropropylene, Dinoseb, Endrin, Ethylbenzene, Ethylene dibromide, 

Haloacentonitriles, Haloketones, Heptachlor epoxide, 

Hexachlorobutadiene, Hexachlorocyclo-pentadiene, Lindane, 

Methoxychlor, Pentachlorophenol, Simazine, 

Styrene, 1,1,2,2-tetrachloroethane, Tetrachloro-ethylene, 

Toluene, 2,4,5-TP, Tribromo-acetic acid, 1,2,4-trichlorobenzene, 1,1,1-trichloroethane, 1,1,2-trichloroethane, 

Trichloroethylene (TCE), Trihalomethanes (THMs), Xylenes 

And if you throw on the Fluoride filter it will remove the following 

50% - 95% for Fluoride 
>50% to include Mercury and Silver 
>80% to include Aluminum, Arsenic III, Arsenic V, 
Cadmium, Chromium VI, Iron, Maganese 
>90% to include Copper, Nickel, Zinc 
>95% to include Lead 

Will also help reduce Strontium, Uranium and Vanadium 

I need to make a correction to my original post. It get rids of MOST heavy metals but it is not guaranteed to get rid of ALL of them. It certainly would be a lot safer to use this than most tap water, that's for sure but would it be good as a heat driven purifier like Durastill, that's what I want to know because this one requires no heat and no electricity. It is purely gravity fed.

I understand most supermarkets usually carry distilled water but lately my Publix hasn't had it, nor do most gas stations, and my local CVS ran out a day or so ago. I bought the last one. I'm sure they will replenish them but I'd like to be able to make my own and for my club that I belong to.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve:


It doesn't say anything about the common ions found in water: sodium, potassium, calcium, etc. They are the primary causes of scale when they combine with sulphate and carbonate. Likewise it doesn't mention removing the carbonate and sulphate ions. These combined with calcium and magnesium make up most of the scale left behind when water is boiled. That's why your coffee maker needs periodic cleaning with an acid. Vinegar will remove the calcium carbonate, but if you have a lot of sulphate in your water vinegar won't help very much.


50% - 95% for Fluoride 
>50% to include Mercury and Silver 
>80% to include Aluminum, Arsenic III, Arsenic V, 
Cadmium, Chromium VI, Iron, Maganese 
>90% to include Copper, Nickel, Zinc 
>95% to include Lead 

Will also help reduce Strontium, Uranium and Vanadium 


The above elements (ions) are not reduced to "0". Upon evaporation they will also precipitate and add to the scale.


Distilled means that the water is boiled and the steam is collected and condensed into water. If it is done properly ALL dissolved mineral matter (ions) are left behind and the condensed water should be free of scale causing material. There is de-ionized water that has had all of the ions removed. I do not think that that process removes all of the organic compounds, so I don't know how pure the de-ionized water is and whether or not it is suitable for live steam.

I think that some water purification systems have an alarm that tells you when you need to change a cartridge or cartridges. In all likely hood that is something that measures the resistance of the water coming out. When the water conducts electricity, at some level, a warning light will go on. One way to check your water is to use an Ohm meter. Raw water will conduct electricity and have a resistance. The purer the water the higher the resistance. Pure water should have an infinite resistance. Normal tap water will show some resistance. I just checked mine it is about 200,000 ohms. The dissolved mineral matter (salts) in the water is what permits it to conduct electricity.

I don't have any distilled water, but I sure that one of you has a multimeter and some distilled water. Perhaps you could check the resistance of the DW.

Chuck


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

THE PARROT IS DEAD!!!!!!! 

If you can't afford $0.79 to $1.09 for a gallon of "steam distilled" water for your live steam locomotive, then you are in the wrong hobby. I am still amazed at certain people with MULTI-THOUSAND DOLLAR locomotives who will try to find substitutes for good distilled water that might cost them $5.00 during an operating session... and try to find substitutes for high quality steam oil that probably costs them $10.00 [or less] per year. 

I will bet any reasonable amount of money they do not treat their motor vehicles this way. 

/RANT OFF/


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## maxi-model (Jan 17, 2011)

Here in the UK the solution used by a lot of live steam operators is a simple plastic water butt (10 gallons +) to collect rain water in. Cheap to buy, quick and easy to fit to a drain pipe from a gutter. No processing required, just open the tap and pass through a fine filter or muslin cloth to take out any crud and fill your boiler. And if you need to transport it just fill an old cleaned out large cola bottle. Perfect solution. Mind you if you don't have much rainfall where you are, access to cheap plastic water butts and don't like cola.......
Max


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Someone once had mentioned using the water that collects from a dehumidifier, since it's simply water vapor condensed from the air. I know when I lived back east (upstate NY), I had one running constantly. That thing would draw out around a gallon of water every 12 - 18 hours or so. I used that once in a while, mostly when steaming up at home. For steam-ups at others' places, I grabbed a gallon jug from the store on my way there. 'Course, that only works in humid climates. Out here, I'd probably draw a gallon every 12 - 18 _years_. But then again, many folks out here have _humid_ifiers in their homes, so the stores are always full of distilled water to use in those things. 

Later, 

K


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

MAX 

Water droplets form around particulate matter in the air...therefore it is pretty dirty. And a muslin cloth is not nearly a fine enough filter for the stuff that "cruds up" the inside of a miniature boiler... it isn't dirt [mud], it is the accumulatiion of microscopic dissolved solids.


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## maxi-model (Jan 17, 2011)

Interesting. It is not a concideration that I have seen come up in UK forums. Looks like there may be a lot of unhappy live steamers here in the not too distant future. I have heard the warning about not using de-ionized water and why but not about the risks with rainwater and particulates. I must read further.Thanks.
Max.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 20 Feb 2012 12:49 PM 
THE PARROT IS DEAD!!!!!!! 

If you can't afford $0.79 to $1.09 for a gallon of "steam distilled" water for your live steam locomotive, then you are in the wrong hobby. I am still amazed at certain people with MULTI-THOUSAND DOLLAR locomotives who will try to find substitutes for good distilled water that might cost them $5.00 during an operating session... and try to find substitutes for high quality steam oil that probably costs them $10.00 [or less] per year. 

I will bet any reasonable amount of money they do not treat their motor vehicles this way. 

/RANT OFF/ It's not a matter of affording, it's a matter of finding distilled water in stock. That's the problem. As I feared the propur would not remove enough of the metals to make it safe long term for live steam. I'll probably get it for drinking water but I'll have to think of something else.

Posted By East Broad Top on 20 Feb 2012 01:00 PM 
Someone once had mentioned using the water that collects from a dehumidifier, since it's simply water vapor condensed from the air. I know when I lived back east (upstate NY), I had one running constantly. That thing would draw out around a gallon of water every 12 - 18 hours or so. I used that once in a while, mostly when steaming up at home. For steam-ups at others' places, I grabbed a gallon jug from the store on my way there. 'Course, that only works in humid climates. Out here, I'd probably draw a gallon every 12 - 18 _years_. But then again, many folks out here have _humid_ifiers in their homes, so the stores are always full of distilled water to use in those things. 

Later, 

K Hey I live in Florida, when you look up "humid" in the dictionary it should mention our state!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

As an example of the conductivity of dissolved solids in water, I just dissolved 1 teaspoon of table salt in cup of water. The resistance went from 200,000 ohms to 20,000 ohms.

End of chemistry 101.

Chuck 


Steve:

I think that ground water in Florida has a high sulphate content. That is the worse kind of hard water scale. Unless you are on a private well, your water supplier should be able to provide you with a chemical analysis of your tap water. That should let you know what you are dealing with. If you are on a private well, contact the Florida Geological Survey and they can probably tell you where you can get it analyzed or have a pretty good idea about your aquifer and its water quality.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I bought a Sears water distiller years ago, they are now $350 new from sears. Great investment, good for the steam iron also. Makes tasty coffee, and also keep water on hand for emergencies. 

Probably can find a used one much cheaper. 

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Max:

Many years ago, about 1962, I worked in the Water Lab for the United States Geological Survey. One of the chemists was studying the sodium content of rain water as a function of distance from the Atlantic Ocean. As I recall he was able to detect increased levels of sodium in the rain several hundred miles inland. There was a regular drop off in the sodium content with distance from the ocean but it was still there.


I don't know where you live in the UK, but there isn't an awful lot of the island that is more than a couple of hundred miles from the nearest salt water.

Chuck 


There wasn't a lot there, but I just mention it to show that rain water isn't as pure as commonly thought. This is especially true now with acid rain.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By StevenJ on 20 Feb 2012 01:32 PM 

It's not a matter of affording, it's a matter of finding distilled water in stock. That's the problem. 






You probably just arent looking hard enough..I think Walmart's goal is to build a store within 5 miles of every US citizen.. and drug stores are sprouting up all over.. (I have four Walmarts within 10 miles..I dont consider that a good thing..but I digress) But being that you live in Florida, not exactly a wilderness state, you probably have lots of stores close to you that carry distilled.. you just havent found them all yet.. what is your zip code? we could look up some stores.. Scot


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

So you want to make your own...


First you will need to dress the part or things just wont come out right..









You need some equipment. You have to keep it simple so those other fella's don't figure out what you're doing and come after your water.










Now you're all set. You never have to worry about your water ever again.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hey Chris, 
You have got new clothes at last! 
Looking good there. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Some of the subjects that come up on this site are just so funny. One of the reasons I like live steam there is always a comic side. First I agree with what Jim is saying about both water and oil. Please let’s not get into the oil thing again; it seems to come up every year. We’ve been through the rainwater discussion before, if you think about it, it’s God’s way of cleaning the air resulting in all the crud in the water. Not to mention the crud washed off your roof that is in the water. Regarding the discussion about the amount of water used for running live steam engines. Jim Overland was here last Friday running his Aster John Shaw coal fired Mikado; he used a gallon of water. I ran my Jim Hadden Heisler and used a quart of water. An Aster Daylight will use a little more than 2 quarts of water an hour. Like Dave said we are lucky, we can use the water right out of the tap here. 

Go and buy your water at the local grocery store and if you only use a gallon a year like Scott says I can’t believe you need to worry if the water has been filtered, distilled, carried from the Antarctic ice fields and irradiated, the amount you use is not going to hurl your engine. 

I like Chris' answer, Grappa anyone.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

Scottychaos, I know how to use a store finder and I know where the Walmarts are around me really. Is it so terrible to ask about making distilled water and going through possible options? It isn't just me that I'd be using it for, I belong to a club of live steamers and we would be sharing the water. Chris Scott I don't think I'll be dressing up like a 'country boy' but I think I can replicate your setup, thanks.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Make sure that the Distilled Water that you buy says something like this on the jug, "*Made by Steam Distillation*". It might also say, "Microfiltered and and ozonated", but the *Steam Distillation* is the most important part. It should not be deionized. And yes, I store my Loco's with water in their copper boilers and have never had any problem. I sure hope I have not *reopened a major can of worms* because this whole water thing has been *beaten to death several times around here before*.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

sigh, 

see what happens when I dont show up to our local meet (I was sick this weekend lol) 
I would of shot stevenj's idea down, GO BUY STEAM DISTILLED lololol - theres a ton of places that sell it around here hehe 

No filter can truely clean water like steaming it and re-condensing it


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Haha, water again! Remember never to use distilled water. Use soft water, tap water is OK if soft (we have plenty of that here in Tokyo, ready to be shipped to you, good price;-) Never leave water in your boiler when stored. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

StevenJ 

We have the same problem of having "runs" on steam distilled water here in northern VA. At about $1.00 per gallon, I just buy it when I see it and put it on the shelf. I try to keep about 10 to 12 gallons in stock and just rotate the stuff through the course of the running season. On the IE&W Ry, at a weekend standard gauge meet with big locos we will use about 12 to 15 gallons of water. That is about $0.80 per participant.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 20 Feb 2012 08:29 PM 
Haha, water again! Remember never to use distilled water. Use soft water, tap water is OK if soft (we have plenty of that here in Tokyo, ready to be shipped to you, good price;-) Never leave water in your boiler when stored. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cheers to you Zubi. Hope all is good. I knew that my post would get you out of hiding. The only thing better then talking water is talking oil, er....I mean *steam* oil, but what viscosity, bearing or compounded bearing, what type of fats in the tallow, thick dark, or thinner golden stuff, and last but not least...........................Mystery Oil.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By StevenJ on 20 Feb 2012 07:06 PM 
Scottychaos, I know how to use a store finder and I know where the Walmarts are around me really. Is it so terrible to ask about making distilled water and going through possible options? It isn't just me that I'd be using it for, I belong to a club of live steamers and we would be sharing the water. 




yes, it is "so terrible"..because you arent talking about making distilled water, you are talking about making water that is useless for live steam locomotives.
everyone keeps trying to tell you, very clearly, that its a terrible idea and it wont work, but you dont seem to want to listen..
the club members wont want to use the water you plan to make, because its bad for their locomotives..it wont be distilled water..
they will keep using the distilled water they easily and cheaply buy for a $1 a gallon, same as they always have..

If you prefer to spend $100 or $200 for a system that will make water that is useless for your locomotives, and will harm them if you attempt to use it,
rather than spend $1 to $5 a year for distilled water that is perfect..then go for it! 

1. you plan to make water that cant (shouldnt) be used..
2. you plan to spend a lot of money doing it.
3. the useless water you plan to make is a solution to a problem that doesnt exist.


I dont see what is so hard to understand about this...

Scot


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Oh, joy! Here we go again. If you are REALLY serious then invest $40 in a water conductivity meter. Basic units will read total dissolved ions to less than 5 ppm (distilled water plants usually operate with 5-10 ppm limits). You can then also pull a little out of your near full boiler (slosh first) and take a reading. If it is still less than 20-30 ppm, great. At 50 ppm it is still soft water. At 100ppm - time to clean her out. Cleaning procedure: fill to normal starting volume, heat the water to boiling, no steam pressure needed or wanted, give her a couple of sloshes to mix, and dump all the water out. Refill with fresh distilled water. I do this every winter for each engine. 


Every time you refill the boiler with water without draining, the water purity is declining. So, simplest way, no meters needed: When in doubt, dump the boiler water. With good distilled water you can probably go 10-20 runs before dumping. Rainwater will need more frequent dumps. Hard tap water after every run - hard water is usually 300 ppm +. Cities with soft water are usually 100ppm or so.


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## topshed (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi,

I always find these discussions about water fascinating. I am in the UK and it is almost impossible to buy true distilled water here; we can buy de-ionised water at £5 a gallon but that isn't the same thing. I solved the problem by collecting rain water (which by definition has been distilled) and using an ordinary domestic water filter to remove the dust and debris the raindrops pick up on their way through the atmosphere. No doubt someone will tell me that this is a dangerous path to go down, but I have seven live steamers, some many years old, which seem to thrive on it. No furring up of tubes or deposits in the boiler, just lots of lovely steam! I also am one of those rare (?) people who gets through several gallons in a year - and I run sparkies too!

Hope I have been somer help and haven't just 'muddied the water'!

All the best,
Martin








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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

In the UK it is a different matter I understand distilled water can cost 8 pounds for a liter or so. This thread reminded me that I ran out of water over the weekend, So I bought a gallon at Wallgreens for $1.29, though it was the last bottle on the shelf. This gallon will last me a few months anyway. 

Steve


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

Scottychaos no need to be rude about it, I acknowledged that filtration system I wanted wouldn't work for this purposes several posts ago already. Gwscheil thanks for the water conductivity meter idea, I may need to get one.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

It's your engine so run what you want. I personally use only "steam distilled" water ( heated to a boil, then condensed in a closed system). However you should be honest when it comes time to sell the engine. You may have to reduce the price or sell to some unsuspecting buyer.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

*PLEASE DO NOT *post entire threads within the body of another thread. It really clogs up the system. A simple link will suffice. I had to delete Chris's post because the forum software kept crashing every time I went in and tried do edit it. Sorry 'bout that, Chris. 

Here's a link to the thread Chris mentioned in his post from about three years ago which covers similar ground. 

Later, 

K


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

If anyone is interested, the conductivity meter I bought is the General CO-502, now selling on-line for about $53. You may also find them at a good salt water aquarium store - they have to make their own RO water and add sea salt, which means they sell the meters to verify that the RO unit is working properly.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

By the way, that link is worth reading, if nothing else but the humor! 

Greg


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

I would think it would be more expensive to have to buy filters, cartridges ect..... then it is to buy the water at any supermarket. I know when I have to replace my water filter in the fridge it is not cheap at doesnt last long (a few months) I think It would be less expensive just buying bottled water. Sometimes if you cant find the distilled water in with the reguklar water try the automotive section. More times then non thats where I find it in supermarkets. 

I just think for what i spent on my steamer its worth buying the water. At least you know your getting distilled water.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

What about using sparkling water, I really like the imported Italian water Pellegrino. Even though it is called mineral water it does not leave a film in the glass. For the Brits it would be cheaper than distilled. 

Steve


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Steve, sparkling water is a very bad idea, it is (lightly) acidy, this is why it tastes good;-). But it will eat your boiler (slowly). Use soft tap water, do not use pure distilled water. If water in your area is hard, mix distilled water with tap water. Best wishes from Tokyo, full of good soft water, ready for shipping, Zubi


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

StevenJ,
I believe you live in Florida, yes? You probably spend alot of money every year keeping your home cool with central air conditioning, am i right? Well, what me old son do you think the product of air conditioners is (apart from cold air!)? Yep, that's right.......distilled water, gallons of it a day that you're tipping straight down the drain!!! I've been een using a/c distillate for the last 40 years here in Canada with no detrimental effect, and water glasses on my engines are still crystal clear. 
You and virtually everybody on this board need never buy another drop of distilled water if only you'd just use your heads a little. I 'treat' a gallon of distillate with about a teaspoon of bleach just to stop possible growth in the containers of stored water. They say that the proof of the pudding is in the eating, well 40 years without any problem for me is a pretty fine 'trial period'.
David M-K
Ottawa


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I collect rain water and have no problems with lots of running! I just put a 5 gallon bucket under the edge of the roof or a down spout. I let the water settle a bit after the rain then submerge my working water jug when filling it so that I do not collect the dust on the surface. I do not do this during "Pollen season" and I do not have gutters filled with leaves.


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Adding bleach to condenser water does make some sense. The raw water will be on the acid side, which the bleach will shift to alkaline. Bleach contains a low amount of hypochlorite in a weak lye solution. Boilers live much longer with mild alkaline conditions. The lye may be more important than the hypochlorite.


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## cjsrch (May 29, 2010)

Still shocked how much incorrect info is passed around 

Ro filter alone is usually more then enough depending on source 
Deionizarion will pull more out and can make dangerously pure water 
This is proven using a Tds meter At 18 megaohm resistance the water will be pure 
Most rodi units can make this 

I say dangerously pure for the fact that water will cause some metal to leach raising the Tds of the water and. VERY slowly weakening what ever metal is being leeched 



Also fwiw rodi is usually more pure then distilled for the reason of dissolved 
Gasses and metal stills leaching 
.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Right, and distilled water (depending on the distillation grade) has even less ions than deionised water and is potentially even more dangerously pure. Deionised water and distilled water are both unhealthy for your boiler, use soft tap water. This has been debated in great depth in the thread linked above by Mr K. If you do not have soft tap water, mix your own or use Zubi certified Tokyo tap water!! Ready for shipment. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

46 Replys about water. Is distilled water really that hard to come by? I can go to any drug store or any supermarket and pick it up. If I boil 10-20 gallons a year it costs me 10-20.00 dollars a year. I just dont get it. 

I understand in the UK the guys use tap water and rainwater and such but they for some odd reason have had distilled water taken away from them and its not as expensive as good hard liquor


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Kovacjr on 28 Feb 2012 06:18 AM 
46 Replys about water. Is distilled water really that hard to come by? I can go to any drug store or any supermarket and pick it up. If I boil 10-20 gallons a year it costs me 10-20.00 dollars a year. I just dont get it. 

I understand in the UK the guys use tap water and rainwater and such but they for some odd reason have had distilled water taken away from them and its not as expensive as good hard liquor 
I agree Jay. I just went to my local food store, A&P and they had 50+ bottles on the shelf. The same is true for all my local stores. Everytime I go shopping (once a week) I pick up a gallon of distilled water. 
I like the rain water idea but how do we know its good and not acid rain that we hear about, especially for those that live downwind from major cities. My tap water is very hard we have a water softner but I still would not trust it. Plus my tap water has the rotten egg smell and we have well water. No doubt an itresting topic. Learning a lot.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

Posted By zubi on 27 Feb 2012 11:56 PM Right, and distilled water (depending on the distillation grade) has even less ions than deionised water and is potentially even more dangerously pure. Deionised water and distilled water are both unhealthy for your boiler, use soft tap water. This has been debated in great depth in the thread linked above by Mr K. If you do not have soft tap water, mix your own or use Zubi certified Tokyo tap water!! Ready for shipment. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 
So I shouldn't be using distilled water? I should be using heavily filtered tap water that leaves some elements behind? 

Posted By GaugeOneLines on 26 Feb 2012 06:34 AM 
StevenJ,
I believe you live in Florida, yes? You probably spend alot of money every year keeping your home cool with central air conditioning, am i right? Well, what me old son do you think the product of air conditioners is (apart from cold air!)? Yep, that's right.......distilled water, gallons of it a day that you're tipping straight down the drain!!! I've been een using a/c distillate for the last 40 years here in Canada with no detrimental effect, and water glasses on my engines are still crystal clear. 
You and virtually everybody on this board need never buy another drop of distilled water if only you'd just use your heads a little. I 'treat' a gallon of distillate with about a teaspoon of bleach just to stop possible growth in the containers of stored water. They say that the proof of the pudding is in the eating, well 40 years without any problem for me is a pretty fine 'trial period'.
David M-K
Ottawa


I'm not running the A/C during the 'winter' but that's a pretty good idea thanks.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi has the only "perfect" water on the planet for steaming, but for the rest of us, STEAM distilled is the best we can do.. hehe


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## cjsrch (May 29, 2010)

Ac water has contaminates. Take a Tds meter to it. 
Also your introducing dust and that odd slime into the mix. 
Fwiw what I know about water is from the salt water industry where a little copper phosphate or silica can be a wreck waiting to happen. 
I also built custom 
Water purification systems for stores handing production of over 600 gallons per day but maintainting 2 ppm tds


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Posted By cjsrch on 28 Feb 2012 09:16 AM 
Ac water has contaminates. Take a Tds meter to it. 
Also your introducing dust and that odd slime into the mix. 

I'm sure in theory you might be right, but in decades of actual practice, your theory hasn't held water (pun not intended). Apart from the addition of the aforementioned bleach, I have one unusual secret for success.......to make sure I minimise any dust and dirt, all water coming out of the a/c distilate pipe runs through a couple of layers of one of my sweetiepie's fine stockings! We're not talking about your modern pantyhose junk here, but real traditional stockings.........now there's a side benefit I bet few of you had thought of, if you get my drift!!!!!!
David M-K
Ottawa


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Been in this hobby for about 15 years now. Have used Ozarka brand "Steam distilled" water for all those years and that is what I have provided at all the "Steaming At Steve's" you have seen. Because of the heavy use at my track , I would think that we have easily used over 100 gallons of this water over the years. In everything from Rubies to Big Boys and everything in between. We all leave the water in them in between runs and when on the storage shelves. To a person, no one has ever seen anything that would cause a concern. And, if this water is eating away from the inside out of our Loco's then it is happening so slowly that we will all be dead and gone before they crumble away. So............... why care, your kids probably won't be interested in them anyway.


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## KYYADA (Mar 24, 2008)

When only the BEST will do...Perrier


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

This is interesting to read. Not having long term experience with boilers, I read some (actually quite a few) articles. 

From my technical background, I understand ionization and how really pure water can leach metals, but the caveat is REALLY pure, not the fairly pure distilled water you buy from the store. 

Also, I read with a lot of interest several articles by people who maintain steam plants and boilers and all the things they do to handle dissolved solids, chelating agents, and most interestingly, treatments to reduce the oxygen in the water to retard the oxidation of the boiler... 

As an engineer, I understand the POSSIBILITIES, and the THEORETICAL things that can happen. 

But, as a practical person, you have to always temper what can happen with what does happen, and experience and real world data is the most important. 

Then you can work to correlate your theories with reality (and often find more factors that you overlooked in your theory). 

Interesting stuff, so I see Zubi's theory and Steve's actual experience. 

Regards, Greg


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

If you really want to know if your boiler is being eaten away, then buy a copper test strip kit. If it shows 'non detect' then no problem.

Today's test results of my engines (all measuring the residual water in the boiler after the previous run, sometimes near full, sometimes almost empty):

Accucraft green Forney 30ppm total dissolved solids 2ppm zinc, copper, & iron

Accucraft black Forney 60ppm 2

Accucraft Ida 105ppm 0

BAGRS 25ppm  5

Regner Max 15 ppm 0

Regner Willi 25ppm 0

I P Jane 25ppm 5

Hyde-out Shay 30ppm 2

Mega - Ruby 80ppm 0
(rebuilt Wilesco boiler on Ruby chassis)

Ida was the only engine near empty. After adding some more distilled water, the TDS reading fell to 20ppm. My test strips are not specific but respond to total zinc, copper and iron. They are very sensitive to copper. A reading of 2ppm is equivalent to about 0.1ppm copper. Some engines had been emptied recently, others not in a year or more. The high BAGRS results match tests done a couple years ago. The Jane engine was old when I bought it and don't remember when it was last emptied and flushed.


I use store bought distilled water. I see no cause for concern. A couple engines (black Forney and mega-Ruby) do need a flush and fill.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

George, could you try the same with deionised water? Many thanks, Zubi


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## Michael (Jan 6, 2008)

If distilled/deionized water is really that dangerous to our boilers, why don't we keep this kind of water in a container made of brass or copper or just throw some scrap pieces of these metals into our plastic containers. The water may eat away from them, and when the water is filled into a boiler it should already be somewhat "saturated".

Michael

P.S. Having used deionized water in 20+ engines for 20+ years. Only had one incident in those years with de-zincification, after I had filled in soft water from a well, that we were using for making tea!


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Unfortunately, I no longer have access to laboratory quality deionized water, so that test is not practical. It should make no difference. The myth that it is "super" water will get you a failing grade in chemistry. It is no more aggressive than other water. For routine use distilled water and deionized water are interchangeable. One process uses condensed steam, which will contain some droplet carryover and volatiles. The other uses a set of resin beds to remove ionic impurities, but may contain traces of the bed resins and non-ionic impurities. Distillation is more expensive because you must boil the water and then condense it. Deionizers simply require periodic resin regeneration.

For boiler water, dissolved oxygen, chlorides, and acidity are the primary corrosion agents. Any water in contact with air will dissolve oxygen and carbon dioxide will shift the pH to the acid side. Commercial boilers try to maintain their feedwater at about pH 9 - slightly alkaline. A few drops of bleach to a gallon should be enough to reach that pH.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Please, help me get this correct. If we are using plain old grocery store bought "Steam Distilled and ozonated" water, and not super purified medical or laboratory grade Distilled water then we and our Loco's are OK ?????


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Few people have access to the high purity waters. So, in the US, store bought distilled is best. Spring water and tap water tend to be hard water in this country - high scaling. RO water around this area is carefully purified, then assorted salts are added back to improve the taste, but not our boiler's life. I have tested several brands of distilled water, all measure no more than 10ppm total dissolved solids.


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