# Hello from the Grand Canyon State.



## mostlyharmless (Dec 11, 2013)

Hello there, my name is Bill. I currently live in the Tucson Area and have been a train guy since I was a kid. Grew up with Lionel until I was a tween and got back into it somewhat around the age of 30. I have decided to sell all of my O gauge stuff and make the switch to garden railroading as I've decided to stay in Arizona and garden railroading just makes sense here. (that and I don't have a basement to run all of my O gauge stuff.  I'm hoping to put in something along the lines of a 16 by 20 (ish) loop initially, starting off with a USA trains NW2 starter set and a few Bachmann cars I've had lying around that came into my possession a long time ago.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Bill 

Welcome to MLS 

Sounds like a great start. Take pictures as we all like to watch your progress. 

Randy


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## jjwtrainman (Mar 11, 2011)

Nice to meet another new member of the forum. 16 by 20 with a few cars and an engine is a solid plan I'd say. These are the people to ask if you have questions!

--James


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome, Tucson has a very active garden railway society. We live most of the year in Virginia, but we spent several months in late winter and early spring in Sun City. The TGRS has an open house in early March. We try to make it down for the weekend. There are a lot of very nice Garden RRs open. I strongly recommend that you make contact with them. It is good to talk to the locals about what works and doesn't, especially in the desert environment. Chuck


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Hello Bill, 

A little closer to home - yours - are 3 MLS'ers that have or are building layouts near you! We comprise what may be considered as " satelite " layouts of the greater Tucson area. 
We all live East of you in Vail - John "Totalwrecker", Sierra Vista - Alan "Fyrekop", and myself in Dragoon - Dirk "SD90WLMT". 
We each have mining as an interest on our layouts. But also each has it's own character!! 

Hope to meet you soon!! 

Merry Christmas.... 
....Have FUN with your trains!! 

Dirk - DMRR & DMS Ry.


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## mostlyharmless (Dec 11, 2013)

Thanks for the welcomes. 

I ordered one of the U.P. NW-2 sets along with 4 sections of 2 foot brass so that I can make an extended oval in the living room until I can really start on my backyard, which, at the moment, is nothing but a blank slate of dirt and river rock. I've definitely NOT picked a cheap hobby this time around.I was planning on purchasing a box of 8 foot radius curves, but Holy Moly! The prices! EEP, seems like 8 bucks a foot is about the going rate for track from what Ive seen online for the brass railed stuff. (I had considered stainless, but aside from not being able to find any for sale, I figured that with Tucson generally being around 10-15% humidity, I might not have to worry so much about rust/oxidization issues. Much less worry about the price which I understand is almost double the going rate of brass?) At any rate, I may very well have to wait until I sell more of my O stuff on Ebay before being able to buy more track. Grins, I won't even start on the flat cars I saw advertised at 120 bucks a pop. I suppose the molds they use for the injectied plastic are made out of solid gold? *ha-ha* Seriously though, 120 bucks for a flat car? Does anyone really pay those kinds of prices?


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

When was the last time you caught up with current HO pricing? 

You'll be buying G-Scale by the volume!!!! Hehe! 

27 times more than HO by volume in fact... 
3 x's Longer... 
3 x's taller... 
3 x's wider.... 
You'll find them easier to work on ....we all age ourselves into this scale of the hobby... 
They are easier on our eyes as one gets shorter arms.....ha. 

Used works.. 
Scratch built works... 
By one car at a time... 
But don't be surprised years from now where they all came from!! 

And playing outdoors with friends is better also... more sunshine!! More vitamin D... 
You'll do fine!! 

Oh my... good luck!! 
Dirk 


Just be sure to have fun doing it!!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Track choices are matched to your power needs..track or battery 

Think flex track.. 

Most likely you'll need battery to visit your new found friends layouts..just easier... 

Dirk


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Welcome Bill, 
I call it G-$cale.... I'm over in Vail, I've got 2 large reverse loops connected by a short mainline.... Battery power is a must for those loops. 

We will help you any way we can. 

John


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By mostlyharmless on 17 Dec 2013 08:57 PM 
Thanks for the welcomes. 

I ordered one of the U.P. NW-2 sets along with 4 sections of 2 foot brass so that I can make an extended oval in the living room until I can really start on my backyard, which, at the moment, is nothing but a blank slate of dirt and river rock. I've definitely NOT picked a cheap hobby this time around.I was planning on purchasing a box of 8 foot radius curves, but Holy Moly! The prices! EEP, seems like 8 bucks a foot is about the going rate for track from what Ive seen online for the brass railed stuff. (I had considered stainless, but aside from not being able to find any for sale, I figured that with Tucson generally being around 10-15% humidity, I might not have to worry so much about rust/oxidization issues. Much less worry about the price which I understand is almost double the going rate of brass?) At any rate, I may very well have to wait until I sell more of my O stuff on Ebay before being able to buy more track. Grins, I won't even start on the flat cars I saw advertised at 120 bucks a pop. I suppose the molds they use for the injectied plastic are made out of solid gold? *ha-ha* Seriously though, 120 bucks for a flat car? Does anyone really pay those kinds of prices? 

Welcome to the forum AND welcome to the expensive world of large scale! Track has really increased in price over the past 8 or 9 years. If you are planning a layout of moderate size (ie 100 feet plus) and you are having sticker shock now, then you need to think how you are going to power your trains. The price of track actually made me go to battery power and using aluminum track, per John above. Aluminum is 1/2 the price of brass roughly. $120 for a flat car is a good price in this scale! Large scale is not for those squeamish about doling out money. That is a fact. But you don't have to build your empire all at once. This IS a lifetime hobby.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Track, and everything else, can be expensive. I have found good deals on track at swapmeets. Once or twice a year there is an all scale swap meet at the Adobe Mt. Railroad park in north Phoenix. We're in the Phoenix area for the Spring one, early April, I think. I've heard of track showing up on Craig's list and EBay. I haven't bought any that way , but I know others have. The good thing about used track is that it cleans up and is as good as new. You will most likely have to replace the rail joiners. If you are going to lay track outside, you will probably replacing them anyway with a more secure system, rail clamps, or some of the other systems using screws or nuts and bolts (0-80). As far as engines and rolling stock goes take your time. When I started I would give Nancy a list before Christmas and birthday and she shared the list with her mother. On the designated day some of the list would appear. Give the collecting LS time. There is no way I could afford to buy my current collection, but by spreading it out over 30 plus years, it is manageable. Chuck


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Bill 

$120.00 might be the norm for 1:20.3 scale but for 1/29th, it's too much even for 2 packs. 

Check out Robbies pricing at http://rldhobbies.com/ 

http://rldhobbies.com/depressedcenterflatcar2packs.aspx 

http://rldhobbies.com/intermodalsinglecontainercars.aspx


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Bill, 
Ace Hardware, corner of Kolb and 22 has a hobby shop; The Hobby Place that sells G ga track, I get most of my stainless there. I've never bought a box, I pick up what I needed as I expanded.I also bought a loco there when my other one died and I had an audience.... 

John


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Bill... Welcome for up in the Preskitt area.... 

While this is, as you said an expensive hobby, listening and learning and holding out for good buys can make it a bit easier on the wallet...

I believe there's a Gadsden Pacific Swap meet in Tucson on January 10-11... Should be able to find some nice stuff there.. Gadsden Pacific Show


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill: Stan is a great source for assistance. He makes excellent decals, I have used them for many projects that required new or different lettering. I have brought two engines out to Arizona and he has helped me by installing battery and R/C in them. Chuck


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome


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## mostlyharmless (Dec 11, 2013)

Ahhh thanks for the info, was wondering about reversing loops, never been a two railer before so I was curious. I think I'm going to ease myself into the battery power stuff. Thanks for the heads up Stan! I've been to some of the train meets here in Tucson before, mostly when I was starting to collect all of the O I'm now getting rid of. I have to admit, I'm a boxcar and passenger car kind of guy, but we'll just have to see how all of this pans out now.  I'm really looking forward to getting *some*thing up and running, but its going to take some time, as I have to get my patio in first before I begin to even think about building up layout. That being said, this might be just the thing for me to start finally doing something about the backyard now that we've been in the house for 15 months. Ideally, I'd like to be able to run like a 15-ish car train....or 2. ;-)


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, reversing loops with track power require some thought. In DC the outside rail becomes the inside rail, bingo, a short. Battery, live steam, and DCC (so we've been told) work with out much trouble. Analog DC doesn't. As we say to every beginner, use the largest diameter(radius) curves that your space will allow. Everything will look and run better. Chuck


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Your doing well here Bill!! 

You have in mind roughly 15 car trains running around... 

What time period gets your goat.. what do you like to see running...?? 

Older western stuff.. 
Narrow guage.. 
Turn of the century.. 
Pre war.ish.... 
50's, 60's, 70's, 80's... 
Present day modern power.. 

Inquiring minds abound here...ha. we ask a lot of questions!! 
Thanks....Dirk


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## mostlyharmless (Dec 11, 2013)

A lot of this is going to depend on my budget but Im thinking either minimum of 8 or perhaps 10 feet. My budget wont allow for the 16 or 20 footers  I prefer transition period....up into the 60s simply because I can run F series, early Geeps and still have modern steam. As previously mentioned selling my Y6b is going to leave me yearning for an articulated replacement! Something about having a huge piece of kit chuffing along. 

I can tell I've got some learning to do. The options for battery power, DCC, sound and such is a bit overwhelming. Already been looking at the dallee sound units. Curious though if I have to swap out everything if I switch from track power to battery and wondering if battery power requires DCC or if its operated on RC frequencies (48/27 mhz) and how that all works. I need a good primer!.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I would urge you to get code 250 track, besides being cheaper it looks better with your trains. Get a piece of it and the Aristo(code 332) and see what you think. I got 250, after that.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Process of elimination here.... 

Using Llagas Creek, code 250 AL. 6ft. flex track on 1/22.5 ties will run about $3.00 per foot. A nice improvement over your other track choice. 
Al rail is compatible with running battery systems.... 
Flex track allows you to form any size curve you want, while reducing the number of joints overall. 

Have your cake ...and eat it to! Dont forget the icing!! 

Choosing a Mallet first will help solve the radius issues you may be having. 

Dirk


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By mostlyharmless on 18 Dec 2013 07:10 PM 
Ahhh thanks for the info, was wondering about reversing loops, never been a two railer before so I was curious. I think I'm going to ease myself into the battery power stuff. Thanks for the heads up Stan! To start a real flame war, Bill,....You are certainly thinking most clearly and are headed in the right direction going to battery power... You don't need to worry about reversing loops no how... Anyway... Trains do run on two rails.... (more flame war comments) 

Puns intended for all the above...









Seriously (maybe).... This hobby is a great one regardless on the size, power source or number of rails the train run on...









Glad to help..... 

PS... amen, Victor...


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## mostlyharmless (Dec 11, 2013)

Hmmm I appreciate all the input, I do believe I've found what I'm looking for as far as track goes. Definitely going to have to buy a box or two before it evaporates. I have a question regarding bending of flex track though? I've noticed track benders, but most of them seem to go between 2-300 hundred dollars, which negates a big chunk of the savings I'd be looking at. Are they required for flex track? Or merely ideal if you are looking to bend to a required diameter/radius? 

Also, I do believe after reading some other posts that I'll probably start off with track power, install sound boards first, and then convert to battery (with switch so I can run either track power or battery) as that seems to be the most expensive part of the equation. 

On a offhand note, I've been trying to find out information about the Lionel Large Scale locomotives, were they decent runners, how was the build quality and what "size" were they (1/22, 1/29, 1/32 or something odd?) Thanks in advance for your responses I appreciate them all.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill:

Check with the local club. Some groups around the country have rail benders they loan or rent to members, or so I have heard. Chuck


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Benders;
First ones were home made, one rail at a time. 









I have the 2nd page which details his use of chords to set Diameter/Radius, this was just to help you see a less expensive, more time consuming method. That page is horizontal format, I'll email it to you if you want it.

Others have used Harbor Freight's tools with modifications. FYI; Harbor Freight makes/sells what I consider to be 'throw away tools', buy it for a job and if it still works after, it's a bonus! I think a Machinist's cross slide was modified... not positive.

I am lazy, I just try to make sectional track look ok.

John


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill,

I have been in this hobby since 1985. I have used a few different methods to bend rail and track (with ties attached). The first was the "belly bend". I think you get the idea







. Then I used the single rail bender. Not as expensive as the "dual rail", usually less than $100. Works great, but can be tedious doing one rail at a time. Some folks swear by them.....I found them to be time-consuming. Lastly, I bought a fairly in-expensive dual rail bender. Best tool I ever bought for my layout. Roughly $235-$250. Nice part is you can bend your flex rail with ties attached. Done very quickly. You can also get Tran-Li dual rail bender. High end, very accurate for setting the radiui of the bend. Lots of other goodies included on the tool. Best of the bunch, although I don't own one.









Like I mentioned in my previous post, this can be an expensive hobby. But you will use a rail bender for many, many years. It's an investment worth making and can help with some of the frustration in bending flex track.


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## mostlyharmless (Dec 11, 2013)

Thank you for all the advice, been doing a LOT of thinking about this the last week or two and have been looking at the available space. Eventually I think what I'd like to do is build an outer loop in the folded 8 tradition with an elevated crossing. Looking at the numbers it would appear if I go with an external radius of 16 feet and an internal radius of about 15 feet in my available 16x24 area I *should be able to get to a height of about 10 inches or so at a grade of 1.5° in both directions with a flat section on the front side. (Unfortunately not a very long flat section..) 

In the opinion of those who have been doing this awhile, is the z-axis work worth the effort involved (does it make the layout more 'exciting' to watch), or would I be better off doing a flat folded 8 with a separate smaller loop providing vertical (tunnel and trestle) appeal?


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Lots of thinking will occur, while you digest and come to terms with your workable design. 
Allow the process the time needed to unfold before you....! 

With a 16 ft width, you'll only have room for a 16 ft or smaller "diameter". 
This questions whether you have 16 ft to build inside of, or exceed this so as to use a full 8 ft radius for the outer circle.?? 

By the time you better understand bridges you may find you need more than 10" of room to allow for both the train and the bridge deck thickness itself. 

In practice, you also need vertical transitions to begin and end grades - between the upper and lower flat sections and the inclines. Using more than 1.5% may be required and will still work here. 

Scenery is a personal thing. You can build what suits yourself!! One of many aspects that is fun !!! 
I tend to reccomend more vertical changes to help break up and strengthen a layouts overall looks. We do not live in a flat world after all!!! And, if your modeling a look similar to home, AZ is anything but flat... 

If you have your ground area cleared, you could use a garden hose laid on the ground to represent where the track may go to better help you visualize what your pondering. 

Dirk


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## mostlyharmless (Dec 11, 2013)

WOOHOO! Got my USA Trains NW2 today! I LOVE it, it's SO cool. I have it set up under the tree currently, running it with 2 extra Bachmann Big Hauler cars. Even though I know that technically they are supposed to be 1/22 where as the USA Trains stuff is 1/29th, they look ok running together. I'd say the only thing I'm sorta miffed at right now is that the smoke units seem to chuck out a lot of unburned smoke fluid all over the cab of the loco that I'm constantly having to wipe off. Can see myself placing a small fine screen at the top of the stacks to combat this. Definitely gonna love this hobby.  I found my self laying on the floor with my chin on the ground watching my train go round from track height, haven't done that since I was a kid.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I am up in New River. North and West of Phoenix on the way to Flagstaff. 


NW-2's Rule.

I got 4 with 2 Calfs. 

I am NR&WGRR if you want to see my mess in the forums. 

WELCOME TO MLS 

JJ


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## mostlyharmless (Dec 11, 2013)

Thanks John, spent a goodly portion of the evening so far reading through some of the posts here; the quality of work you guys do is absolutely outstanding and I've been trying my best to take it all in for when I get started. Thanks to all of you for the information and the encouragement. I'm definitely going to have to get in contact with the local GRR group.


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