# G Gauge or G Scale?



## jmaurer1 (May 28, 2008)

Wanting to finally figure what different scales all of the current and previous manufacturers made their products in, I ended up first having to figure out what the differences were. In the end (with the help of Google) I had the following. Please let me know if there are any mistrakes (lol).


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## jmaurer1 (May 28, 2008)

*G Gauge or G Scale - Which one is it?*​ 

_Scale _and _Gauge_ are often confused; _scale_ means the ratio between a unit of measurement on a model compared with a unit of measurement in a corresponding full size prototype, while _gauge_ is the distance between the two running rails of the track. "G" is a gauge, not a scale. “G gauge” means that the track is 45mm wide. The scale depends on what the 45mm gauge track represents on your prototype.

2ft narrow gauge 1:13 
3ft narrow gauge 1:20.3 
1 meter narrow gauge 1:22 
56 1/2 inch standard gauge 1:32 

Historically, “G scale” has been recognized as 1:22.5. LGB coined that designation in the late 60s when they introduced their line of indoor/outdoor trains designed to run on #1 gauge (45mm) track. “G” stood for either _Garten_, the German word for Garden, or _Gross_, the German word for big - either word identifying that these trains were designed to be run outdoors. Lehman Gross Bahn (LGB) = Lehman Big Trains.

LGB chose that scale because the models they started offering were (supposed to be) meter gauge prototypes. They took the long-established “#1” track gauge of 45mm and did the math converting it to meter gauge and got 1:22.5 (actually Märklin originally established the scale standards in the early 1900s and designated 1:22.5 as scale 2, spur 2, 2m or simply #2, however it was LGB who first began offering products in this scale). There was already a substantial crowd in Europe modeling trains in #1 scale (1:32) including folks running trains indoors as well as outdoors, so the choice to create narrow gauge models to run on the same track was natural. Of course, LGB has never been a stickler to this (or any) scale as many of their first offerings were models which weren't from meter gauge prototypes.

Unlike Europe, which had a rich, long history with #1 scale, it was virtually unknown in the US. LGB's “G-scale” was the first introduction into outdoor railroads that most in this country had ever received. It wasn’t long before US manufacturers started entering the playing field. The first was Kalamazoo (whose product line is now largely manufactured by Hartland). These trains were marketed as “compatible” with LGB, though to stick a specific scale to them is difficult. Common perception put them at 1:24, which measures out to 1/2 inch to the foot, which was something Americans could finally relate to (the dollhouse industry uses 1:24 scale as a very common scale). Delton followed shortly thereafter with a line of much more faithful models built to 1:24 scale. Neither of these companies specifically advertised their products as “G-scale”. Kalamazoo advertised them as “#1 gauge” trains, referencing the gauge of the track they ran on and not the scale of the models themselves. Delton marketed their trains as “1/2 inch scale” (Most of Delton's models are now made by Aristocraft, under the “Classics” label). 

All this occurred in the mid-1980s, 15 years after LGB first introduced their first trains. By this time, LGB's “G is for _G_arden” marketing had paid off, and anything designed to be run in the garden was generically referred to as "G-scale" regardless of what the actual scale of the model was. “G scale” had become a generic term though its origin was brand specific.

The waters became muddier when REA (now Aristocraft) introduced a line of standard-gauge prototypes designed to be run on the same #1 gauge track. They wanted to bring standard gauge models to the mass marketplace. There had been a few attempts to popularize #1 scale in the garden, but the models were visually smaller than those from LGB, Kalamazoo, and others, so the efforts fizzled rather quickly. REA recognized this failing, so they took a different path. They made their trains visually compatible with what was already available from LGB, Delton, and Kalamazoo, choosing 1:29 scale for their models making them ‘look’ compatible with either the current larger 1:22.5 and 1:24 scale trains or the smaller #1 scale trains.

Absent from all of these new products was any attempt to label their products to a specific standard. Everyone seemed to be continuing to lump all these trains under the now largely generic “G scale” umbrella with no attempt to clarify anything to the consumer. All was visually compatible, and the consumer seemed to be quite happy. 

Today, the waters are made even muddier by the recent popularization of true #1 scale models by Accucraft and MTH, and the emergence of 1:20.3 as the standard for modeling American narrow gauge models on #1 gauge track. 

In truth, the generic application of “G scale” has done exactly what it was supposed to do; lump everything designed to run on rails 45mm apart under one large umbrella. Unfortunately, the hobby has outgrown that need, and the mixture of scales now seems to cry out for some kind of separation under that large umbrella. 

As for “true” scale, it all depends on what you want to model on #1 gauge track:

1:32 - accurate for modeling North American and most European standard gauge trains

1:29 - not accurate for standard gauge, but the current de-facto scale supported by some of the major manufacturers. 

1:24 - accurate for modeling 42" gauge trains 

1:22.5 - accurate for modeling meter gauge trains 

1:20.3 - accurate for modeling 3' gauge trains. (The most common US narrow gauge)

Anything from 1:29 to 1:22.5 tends to be visually compatible in terms of size and proportion, so many folks buy what appeals to them and run it without a second thought to “accuracy”. A vast majority of garden railroaders fall into this camp, which is a very liberating way to enjoy the hobby (of course, I’m not one of them). 

When you get into 1:32 or 1:20.3, you'll notice that the models start to look noticeably larger or smaller than their middle-of-the-road counterparts. Most folks who commit to these scales do so with specific intention, and model only within that specific scale. The other scales become irrelevant beyond potential kit bash fodder. It, too, is a very liberating way of enjoying the hobby. As much as I may like a certain model, if it's not the right scale, I have far less desire to buy it.

Eventually the NMRA tried to impose some sort of order onto this chaos so they finally came up with: 

G = 1:22.5 LGB meter gauge on 45 mm track 
Fn3 = 1:20.3 true scale 3' gauge on 45mm track
A = 1:29 scale, larger than scale standard gauge represented on 45mm track. 
#1 = 1:32 scale, true scale standard gauge on 45 mm track (also known as Gauge 1)
H = 1:24 scale, can be true scale for 3'6" gauge or 1/2" scale


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## jmaurer1 (May 28, 2008)

Okay, so what _scale_ are the trains that are (and were) available? Unfortunately, even today not all manufacturers label the scale that their trains are built to. I guess that they don’t want to stop someone from buying their product just because it isn’t made in the same scale they are modelling. I bought my first “G gauge” train set way back in 1988 when Bachman first released their radio controlled Big Hauler train set (I still have it). Since then I have tried several times to get started in garden railroading (I had been modelling in HO for a few years before 1988 and still model in N scale today), but the size difference between the trains has always bothered me. Every time I tried to start building a garden layout the size thing would eventually come up and not knowing what _scale_ a product was made in, I would end up back in N or HO. Since I was never able to find anything that explained the size differences, I finally decided to do it myself (with the help of Google). Here’s what I came up with, hopefully it will help others: 

Manufacturers:

Accucraft 1:32
American Main Line (Accucraft) 1:29
American Model Builders 1:24
American Model Supply (Accucraft) 1:20.3
Aristocraft (formerly REA) 1:29
Aristocraft Classics (formerly Delton) 1:24
Bachmann Big Haulers 1:22.5
Bachmann Spectrum 1:20.3
Caledonia Express 1:24
Delton 1:24
Hartland (formerly Kalamazoo) 1:24
Hartland Locomotive Works 1:24 – 1:29
Kalamazoo 1:24
LGB 1:22.5
Lionel 1:32
Model Die Casting (except caboose) 1:32 (caboose only) is 1:24
MTH (same as Railkings) 1:32
Piko 1:29 (American cars)
Piko 1:22.5 (wood-sided passenger cars)
Railkings 1:32
REA 1:29 
USA Trains Ultimate series 1:29
USA Trains American series 1:24


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds accurate to me. I would only rearrange the last (NMRA) list as you describe it above.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Good summary of how things flowed. 
The one item that is almost always left out is Precision Scale Company's efforts in the period from about 1985-1993. During this time they produced a series of accurate 1:24 narrow gauge models [offering optional correct 1.5 in ga wheelsets/trucks] for West Side Shays [two], and multiple versions of the K-27. They produced a D&RGW box car, narrow framed tank car and frameless "GRAMPS" tank car.
In 1:32 they produced in brass: 3 versions of tank cars, PS-1 40 foot box car, USRA composite drop bottom gondola [with operating drop doors], and an SP caboose.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

sounds right to me, but i am 99.99999999999999999999999973 percent sure USA trains hudson,gg1,big boy, ETC are 1:32 i model in 1:20.3 and 1:22.5 scale


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Aster 1:32 (Mostly - although a mixture of other scales have been made too)
I am sure that there are others that you have missed too.
Regards
David Leech, Delta, BC


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

T&W Unfortunately you ARE NOT correct.
ALL USA Trains equipment that is modern era US standard gauge IS 1:29 scale.
I have had an MTH GG1 and FAM brass GG1 both next to a USA model. The USAT is much larger. Same for the Big Boy and Hudson compared to either MTH or Aster which are 1:32.


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## Dunbar (May 5, 2016)

JMauer,
Good Luck with this. I totally agree with you as I have been 1 year into this hobby and went through the same stuff and made similar comments on other forums. It is over due to stop lumping everything as G. We need to break out the scales so you know what you are getting. I too am tired of getting a 1:24 scale car after I specifically asked if it was 1:29. " Oh yeah, its G scale." 
I think this is also the biggest deterent for new blood coming in. It gets too confusing for newcomers and the interest quickly wears off.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

REMEMBER....
Most retailers are more interested in selling you WHAT THEY HAVE
NOT necessarily WHAT YOU WANT. 
So if they actually know the difference, they may still act like a new car salesman.
Your mileage may vary widely.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

The scale issue seems to rear its ugly head from time to time. But for many that I know, its a moot point. IF it looks good in the garden, then good enough. Most everybody pics a chosen prototype. Be it European Meter gauge or even Standard gauge from both Piko and LGB. Or USA prototypes ect. The choices are not brand wide in models. If you want a Genesis Amtrak diesel, your stuck with LGB and thier rubber ruler. But most are happy just to have the engine and matching coaches at all. Only the rivet counters seem to complain. My answer? Don't buy it then. The choices in Large scale, lets call it that, are limited. Each brand picked the scale combination they thought would sell or suited thier chosen prototypes to model. Yes the early days were a real jumble, so were the early days of HO scale with shells being oversize to fit what motors were available at the time. Just go look at pics of Barry Bogg's indoor LGB scale narrow gauge railway with scratch built K class Mikados ect. Its amazing and all the drive systems are bullet proof LGB. Sure cant say that about my friends Fn3 plastic super detailed marvels from another brand. I am constantly fixing them. Beautiful models on the shelf or indoor line, but a real headache on a working garden railway. We just need to accept that each brand has thier chosen scale and be happy with it. Its a hobby guys, not the end of the world. If you want perfection to scale, buy brass trains or build you own. I will stick with my LGB and Kalamazoo and thier odd scale. I have more important things to worry about than if that USA woodside reefer matches the scale of my Kalamazoo 4-4-0 pulling it around the garden. Both are colorful and pleasing to my eye to watch! Now back to enjoying my trains. Mike


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

> "Eventually the NMRA tried to impose some sort of order onto this chaos so they finally came up with:
> 
> G = 1:22.5 LGB meter gauge on 45 mm track
> Fn3 = 1:20.3 true scale 3' gauge on 45mm track
> ...


That system was proposed, but never officially adopted for any number of reasons. Instead, the NMRA opted to focus specifically on the wheels and track shared by all of the scales under the "large scale" umbrella, since that was what all the scales had in common, and consistency between all the scales in that area was mandatory for reliable operation. They grouped all these scales under the "Large Scale" heading.

Of all the scales under the large scale umbrella, only "F" is broken out as its own unique scale with "F" and "Fn3" standards. This is because at the time we were working on these standards, there were a few manufacturers having a go at making F standard gauge products (70.64mm), one of whom was on our committee. 



> In truth, the generic application of “G scale” has done exactly what it was supposed to do; lump everything designed to run on rails 45mm apart under one large umbrella. Unfortunately, the hobby has outgrown that need, and the mixture of scales now seems to cry out for some kind of separation under that large umbrella.


The challenge is getting the manufacturers and retailers on board with that. The manufacturers have not exactly been forthcoming with enthusiasm. At best, we have manufacturers stating the numeric scale on the boxes of their products. At worst, we have manufacturers with incredibly rubber rulers making models of standard and narrow gauge prototypes mixed together in the same product line. Don't count on that changing. 

The retailers? First, they need to have the information they need on the models to be able to separate them by individual scale. If the manufacturers aren't going to give them that, this discussion is moot. If they do, then they've got to have the ability and the staff to keep things separated by scale, and to educate customers on the differences. 

Even with that, there's also the argument that large scale is stronger _because_ everything runs together regardless of scale, so separation could end up hurting the hobby because folks would forego buying this or that model because it's labeled as a different scale. 

Right now, we're in such a slump of new products, I'd be happy just to see _anything_ new, regardless of how it's labeled. 

Later,

K


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice summary of the history of G. "G", the easiest term when telling a non-railroad hobbyist what size trains you play with. As far as marking the product with the intended scale, doing that would bring out the rivet counters with their micrometers to rip the manufacturers for being off a milimeter. So, for those wanting a specific scale, it all comes back to the buyer to determine exactly what they are buying before they buy. For me I've bought what I like and also what was available. The Aristo Craft caboose is much larger than 1:29th scale to me but they were the only one at the time that had a Rock Island marked caboose. The MDC/Roundhouse/Piko 2 bay coal hoppers are slightly smaller than the 1:29th scale Aristo Craft 2 bay coal hoppers. But when I started buying them, Aristo didn't have theirs. And now Aristo Craft is out of business and Piko is still producing 2 bay coal hoppers. I'd love to sell off my MDC/Roundhouse/Piko coal hoppers and replace them with Aristo Craft B&O 2 bay coal hoppers but that has been turned into a dream with little to no chance of happening.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

lets not forget 7/8 scale 2 foot gauge


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

jmaurer1, you nailed it! 
your first three posts in this thread summarized nicely pretty much all that can be said on the topic..
I will just add this: 










(which says the same things you already said) 
thanks,
Scot


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## Cataptrra (Mar 16, 2015)

I'm no perfectionist and I've yet to see ANY TRUE 1:1 Railroad that is either! I have seen a mix of trains with assorted sized railcars, mainly freight, but I've occasionally caught that elusive special passenger car at the end of an Amtrak passenger train that is definitely out of place because of roadname or specifically the size of it.

Therefore on my garden railroad, it doesn't matter if the cars are dis-proportioned, not the same exact scale, etc. Not when I see the same thing on the real 1:1 trains rolling through. Even many of the rolling stock is or has been defaced with graffiti, broken doors or windows{if they have a window/s} and I've even caught mismatched wheel-sets on some rolling stock from time to time, the wheels may be slightly smaller in diameter than the set on the opposite truck.

So if the real railroads run off-size and various size cars on their line, I just can't see why that is such a big arguing point on ANY scale model railroader.

Life's just to short to worry about stuff like this on a model railroad, again, and especially when real 1:1 railroads do it all the time.

And as for buildings, same thing, not every home, business or building are the same size, sure would be a boring world if everything was exactly uniform and the same size, then there'd be no variety at all.


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## jmaurer1 (May 28, 2008)

Dr Rivet said:


> REMEMBER....
> Most retailers are more interested in selling you WHAT THEY HAVE
> NOT necessarily WHAT YOU WANT.
> So if they actually know the difference, they may still act like a new car salesman.
> Your mileage may vary widely.


...and I think that is WHY it has been allowed to continue for as long as it has. Making a sale (either retail or manufacturer) is more important than providing the information about the product. 

Thanks for the input, I'll update my info with the above and maybe this will become an article or sticky...


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## Dunbar (May 5, 2016)

jmaurer1,
Congratulations. You have smacked the bull square on the ass and lived through it. You are officially a G scale modeler. I love reading the justification remarks everytime the scale issue and labeling comes up.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*Aristo-Craft Successor Company*

jmaurer1,

I commend you on your research and its presentation. Well done.

As to Aristo-Craft company, as Randy stated, they are out of business; however, their successor company is *PolksGeneratioNext*. 

Residue Aristo products may still exist or products under that brand name may still be offered until exhausted with the expectation that new production may assume the Polk's brand name.

Moreover, some Aristo products, such as *wheels*, are now sold under the CREST brand name by the CREST Electronics company. 
The *CREST Electronics* company, operated by a former member of Aristo-Craft, mostly assumed the electronic products formerly sold by Aristo-Craft such as the Revolution Train Engineer.

-Ted


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

jmaurer1 said:


> ...Making a sale (either retail or manufacturer) is more important than providing the information about the product.


You have to consider the philosophy of the manufacturer, though. LGB's legacy is as a toy company. They don't make "model" trains. They produce a line of toy trains built to a cohesive product philosophy. Whether the prototype being modeled is a 2' gauge (60cm) or standard gauge prototype, it's going to be the same overall size, and built so to go around their tightest curves. They have models which run the gamut from 1:29 to 1:19 in their product line. In LGB's case, it's not at all a matter of putting sales before information. They have always been very up front about the fact that they are simply not a "scale model" train manufacturer. (Piko follows a similar philosophy, building models to a more-or-less consistent overall size, and adjusting the scale of the model to suit.) 

The unavoidable fact is that LGB remains the 800-pound gorilla in the room. Many of the other manufacturers do at least state the scale of the model on their packaging, but so long as the market dominant force produces models that are "anything goes" with regard to scale, then large scale will remain "anything goes." 

And I'm quite fine with that. 

We don't need to separate each scale in large scale. What purpose would that serve? Cross-pollination has been the hallmark of the hobby since day 1, whether it was European and American prototypes, or standard and narrow gauge, or steam and modern diesel. We've always been a hobby of "run what you like." I think actively working to dissuade people from doing that would erode the foundation of garden railroading. 

Those folks (and I count myself among them) who wish to pursue a single theme and a single scale have more than enough information already to be able to do that. If I model 1:20, it doesn't take more than a 30-second Google search to figure out which manufacturers produce models in my scale. Same for 1:24, 1:32, 1:29, and 1:22. More than that, we have scale rulers that we can take to models made to other scales which may work in our chosen scale. 

Sure, it flies in the face of the conventional "one scale, one letter" philosophy of the smaller scale model railroading. I say, unapologetically, "so what." The large scale hobby evolved differently. Try all you want; you're not going to fit the proverbial round peg into the square hole. The hobby developed the way it did, and it is what it is because of that history. You can't go back and change history just because things don't fit a given mold today. Don't worry about "the mold." Enjoy the hobby as you want to enjoy it, whether it's a specific scale and era, or running the flavor of the day. It's evolved such that both ends of the spectrum are easily accommodated. 

Later,

K


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I might point out that LGB 1:22.5 was originally "K scale".

Robert


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