# track power or battery power ?



## G-baby (Mar 25, 2008)

I have another question:

I like to scratchbuild just about everything and when I get going on G-scale I am thinking of scratch building a locomotive or two, but I don't know which power source to go with, track power or battery power. I am leaning toward the use of battery power since this will eliminate some wiring problems and since the technological advances in batteries, such as rechargeable, fairly light weight lithium-ion batteries up to 24 volts with long run times, I am seriously considering battery power over track power, especially since I have read about the numerious draw-backs to track powered locos, etc. also another plus to each loco being battery powered you don't have to worry if you have enough amperage running through the tracks to power all of the locos on that track, since each loco or train will have its own power source on board.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated ! Wow I have become a regular chatter box for an old geezer !

Dick (G-baby)/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Dick,

As a NEW user of battery power, I love it. When I first built my railroad with track power over 25 years ago, it ran fine-all LGB. As the years went on, the problems started mounting. Cleaning track all the time took away from the enjoyment and it still had intermittent problems. Last year I was convinced by many to go to battery and I've never looked back or been disappointed! It can be a little pricey if you don't do the work yourself. I have Jonathan from RC Trains do the install. I use Airwire.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd suggest reading my FAQ section: http://www.elmassian.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=35&Itemid=49 

You need to make decisions on if you will be running long trains, running for extended times, doubleheading, MU, whether a battery car is ok, or each loco needs a battery, how many locos you will eventually have, and how much you want to spend. 

Without knowing all these things, making a decision is really a waste of time, you may trap yourself in a decision you don't like later. 


Regards, Greg


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## G-baby (Mar 25, 2008)

Gary Armitstead:

Thanks for the heads up on battery power. I kind of surmized that battery power would be the way to go. Like I said I am a scratch build nut and would like to try my hand at building a battery powered loco using the lithium ion rechargeable battery and I think I will try using the motor out of a cordless drill, driver as they have plenty of power and some can be had new for quite a bit less than a new factory motor !
And I am pretty sure I can do all the necessary installations needed as I have some knowledge of electronics, etc.

I know this has nothing to do with railroading or G-scale RR, but I would like all of you to know that it will be a while before I will be able to get going full bore on my dreams and plans, as in about 3 months I am having cataract surgery, hopefully this will take care of one of my health problems. I will continue to monitor the forum and ask questions and again thanks to you all for your support and friendship, and again I am sorry about my rocky first time on here.

Dick (G-baby)/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

G Baby.

It is a good idea to research this subject thoroughly long before you shell out the hard earned to get started.

Track power is an easy and simple way to get going.  
It will run just fine for a little while and then the real cost of parts and labour kicks in.
Rest assure you will have to properly bond each and every rail joint.  Most probably with metal rail clamps.
So add those into the cost factor right from the outset.
Next is the choice of rail material.
For track power the very least you will require is brass and possibly stainless steel.
Compare the cost of that with aluminium rail which is perfectly adequate for battery R/C.  You may need to reinforce aluminium as it is a bit softer than brass or stainless.
Next is the cost of a transformer - controller.  That may not be much as you have indicated you would like lighter style trains.

Add it all up and you will still only be able to control one train at a time on the track.

Now add up the cost of battery R/C and I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how inexpensive it can be.
How inexpensive depends on what you want to do.
You could get a 2 amp on board controller and R/C for about US$120 with fantastic range and smooth control.
Small enough for many locos and still leave room for batteries.
Then you can add sound depending on taste..

By all means ask away with the questions.

BTW, I make the RCS brand.  The only battery R/C that is truly plug'n'Play with the new Bachmann K-27.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Uh oh.  The dreaded question....

It really depends on what you value and how you run your trains.  It sounds like you've pretty much made up your mind, but as a track power user I wouldn't go any other way.  My layout is all Stainless steel with all split jaw clamps and even my original center loop that has been down since 2004 runs flawlessly.  

My most important priorities are:  

- Unlimited endurance (including fully lit multiple 10 car passenger trains and sometimes smoke units)
- Virtual maintenance / hassle free operation
- Precise multi engine control
- Minimal future incremental cost of operation. (not having to replace old/weak batteries)

If you don't want to mess with cleaning track because of oxidation, then SS is the way to go.  I want my engines to be able to run all day and I mean all day without having to stop and swap batteries.  For me, knowing that I was on a time clock (limited battery life) would bother me, but I'm just like that.  I also run double header steam trains with pusher steam engines and having a battery car behind my pusher is something I absolutely wouldn't want.  I also run multiple 10 car passenger trains and having to wire them together to a common battery or installing batteries in each one would be something I would consider a major pain.  To ensure you don't run short on amp capacity, you just get a power supply that has enough growing room that you will never need to trade up to the next larger model and you're set for good. 

In my mind the primary advantages that stand out for battery operation was multiple users at the same time on large layouts and running in all different directions and reverse loops without shorting out.  Very handy and would be very difficult and more cumbersome with track power.  You can also save on not using split jaw clamps for the layout also.  One down side is your friends who run track power can't run their stuff on your layout because battery users don't bother with track power infrastructure.  

Globally, there is no right and wrong answer to this as there are so many different ways people run their trains and what they run.  Not sure any of this is of any use but...  

Good luck with your decision.

Raymond


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You have stated that you love steam locomotives... why mess around with electricty? Go LIVE steam. It is GREAT!


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well... 

If you are going to scratch build everything then I would advise you to examine the home page below. Take special note of the section marked *Kitchen Sink Engineering* 

homepage.ntlworld.com/sheila.capella/cabbage/default.html

I do not use dismembered drills but simple motors bought from my local web browser -far cheaper both in time and effort. (Circa £0.80p for a 3 pole SME and £1.50p for a 5 pole Johnson). I would advise against lithium polymer batteries, this is because they require some advanced controllers to stop them falling below the 3Volt line. I personally use 6Volt Sealed Lead Acid batteries and my son uses 1.2Volt AA NimH batteries in his locos -both are 16mm scale and run on the same track. 

regards 

ralph


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2008)

i advokate track-power.
nothing hinders you, to run battery-powered trains on powered track. but if you start out with battery-power, and later change your mind, you have to make some changes.
one disadvantage of using trackpower would be, you would have to build slide powerpickups on your locos.

it mainly depends, what you like to happen on your layout.
you want to see one or two locos moving? then battery-power is great. 
you want to see a bigger number of trains going around? then use track-power plus some automatic blockwireing.

my last layout had constantly eight trains moving, by an automated block system.
two trains on a three block single track loop, influencing each others stop and go, and influencing as well the other loop, where i had running six trains in two directions on a single track with six doubletracked sidings. (on three locos i just changed the wires to the motor)
steered by a LGB system, greatly expanded by homemade contacts and microswitches.

for my short trains and slow velocities power was no problem.
1 LGB and 1 Bachmann transformers from starter packs, 2 playmobil transformers, 1 H0 lima transformer, 1 no-name 40 year old H0 transformer and 1 fifty years old fleischmann H0 transformer did the job.
(with a combination of a multi-voltage transformer plus a LGB outdoor controller i still got problems)

to make it not too long. if you like trains go round, choose trackpower plus some automatic steering. if you like to be in command, use battery power or trackpower with remote control.

korm
.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

This question comes up routinely ... and we routinely have the advantages of the various control approaches stated (without much conclusion). Essentially, everyone is right in what they say and the bottom line comes down to what you expect your railroad to do; how you intend to operate. 

A great many garden railroaders run in what I call a continuous display mode. In other words, a train is put on the track and is run ad infinitum around a loop (even if the owner has gone elsewhere to mow grass or clean the pool). In this style of operation, track power has some clear advantages as outlined by Raymond Manley - I would add one other advantage and that is the train will likely stop if a derailment of the locomotive occurs something not inherent to battery power. 

Some garden railroaders, especially those who enjoyed operations in smaller scales, look for something similar from their large scale railroad. I have never considered a railroad for just running a train in a circle so I naturally gravitate towards the operations end of things. Multiple train operation with individual control of each loco, complex switching assignments and the like, are the province of either DCC or battery/RC. The traditional concept of cab control has been superceded in small scales by DCC. Despite its funcyionality, DCC depends on the rails for conductivity hence the growing use of battery power among the operations oriented crowd. 

In our club ( www.ovgrs.org ), most of us model in one of the smaller scales and for that we all use DCC. But outside, after a short go with track power about 20 years ago, we all moved to battery/RC and have never looked back. I can safely say that there is zero interest in wiring outside for DCC and there would be club dissolution if traditional track power had to be wired. 

The cost features can be argued from many many angles. On the whole I would suspect it to be a wash ... batteries and radios offset against more expensive track, clamps, wire, electrical switches, power supplies and control panels. As far as labour goes, there is no comparison. Battery/RC requires a one time effort ( a few hours) for each loco ... while track power involves running miles of wire and building complex control panels for block selection as well as ongoing track maintenance. Interesting that DCC involves the modification of the loco and in addition a good part of the labour of wiring initially and ongoing maintenance to boot. 

As in many areas of large scale, there are rather minimal standards and accepted procedures. But your choice of control system is fundamental to many other things - from style of operation to tracklaying methodology (nobody has spoken to this but is perhaps a subject for another day). Some research into what is out there and some thought about what you want your railroad to do will pay long term dividends. 

Regards ... Doug


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2008)

My Layout is Exclusively Battery Power....I began that way, and don't have any plans to use track power...I spent months researching all angles, and found the perfect fit for me with RCS and Battery! 

see my signature 

cale


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## G-baby (Mar 25, 2008)

Well, guys you have certainly given me a lot more to think about and consider. However since I am planning on modeling a section of the MKT shortline, it will undoubtly not be  very large, I am thinking possibly an L or elongated U layout, L shape possibly 40ft. on the long section and 25 ft to 30 ft. on the short leg and if an elongated U around the same dimensions only in a U configuration with an elongation at the bottom of the U and the width to be between 3ft to 4 ft on the straight legs with a turn around at the end of each leg.  I am planning on running only one train at a time, since this will be a single track just as on the MKT origional line. I know that a one train at a time operation does not sound like much, but I am not a young man anymore and I don't know how much longer the good Lord will let me ride on lifes pass before he cancels it, hopefully long enough to realize one last dream.
Everyone I know thinks I am crazy for even wanting to undertake such an endeavor this late in life and considering my health problems, but for some reason I have this overwhelming urge to do this, I can't explain it, just like I can't  explain why, lately I have all of these child-hood memories flooding back, stronger than ever before !
I have another question ! I have been trying to educate myself on the news forms of train or loco control. I don't under stand what is ment by the term I see quite often as, up to 9,999 loco adresses and since I am going to run only 1 train at a time is this type controler really necessary ?
I need some help and advice !

Dick (G-baby)/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

Dick, there was a thread a number of years back about getting started in large scale railroading that emphasized “Just do it!” Set up a loop of track on the grass or patio, run trains, have fun, and go from there. Setting up initially with track power is a quick and easy way to start. Later when your layout becomes more complicated, you might want to consider DCC or battery power. The power supply can always be used to bench test locomotives or power switches and other accessories.
 
With the huge choice of locomotives sold commercially you might be better just buying one. In most instances scratch building a car or locomotive can be time consuming, frustrating, and can cost as much or more than one you can buy. I understand there is a great pride and joy in building or kit bashing something yourself, but perhaps that is something to deal with later.
 
Locally I belong to an association that includes 200 model railroaders in all scales. In the crowd there are a number of people who have their dream layout in dusty boxes. They have never had the pleasure of running their own trains and never will because they spend all their time planning and building kits.
 
If you like steam locomotives, buy a Bachmann Anniversary set, an oval of metal track, and “Just do it!”


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Having recently switched: 

Battery is a little more expensive, you have to buy batteries and an RC controler, but I'm not looking back!


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2008)

If you like steam locomotives, buy a Bachmann Anniversary set, an oval of metal track, and “Just do it!”


that was the best advice, you got till now! 
do it, and then add little by little, what you feel is needed next.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Now there's advice you can use! Why didn't I say that?


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I just resurrected track power for my Zephyr, but now starting to wonder about it, cleaning track is boring already, and since I run live steam also, it can get pretty dirty. Jerry


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Dick,  I still recommend reading the archives and be prepared to read alot.  (and Greg's page)

Rest assured that installing a rail clamp is quick, easy(is not rocket science) and once installed you can forget about it and won't give you issues later.

Also, track power is not just throttle control on your transformer.  There are digital control options similar to battery for control multiple engines and trains, but that are also way more advanced than what's out there for battery (although I don't think advanced is what you are really looking for).  But for that type of control, just like battery(for every mfg other than Aristocraft) requires engine modification.

Also note that only Aristocraft trains come setup ready to run battery power.  Every other make of engine will require the engine be modified to run under battery which will make you dependent on rewiring it yourself or paying someone else to do it.  For track power you can take any mfg engine out of the box, put it on the track and you are up and running.  You can't get much simpler than that.  For setting up the track under track power, if your loops are small enough you likely only need one power feed to the rails at one spot if you use SS and clamps and as I said before, you don't have 'all that' maintenence.

So again, be sure to read the archives.  You generally don't get as many track power folks reply to these threads. 


Raymond


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

G-baby saw you come into chat last night, and quickly leave "come on in" Nobody will bite you just a bunch of us old farts having a good time there. Sometimes have to have a little bit of a thick skin but generally you can enjoy yourself, and ask away whatever you want. Alot of the time topic switches from trains to "Oh Man '" what the heck does this have to do with trains, but we have Mikey that usually reigns us back into the trainworld. So come on in and join the fun and "EDUMACATION" Also on your above question Track power or Battery i do both run small guage inside with track power, and outdoors can go either way out there with the "big stuff" But if you are going to want to run outdoors exclusively you probably will want to go with the "battery mafia" and go battery and r/c. because of weather and track continuity!! If you want to RUN your trains and not do alot of maintenance go battery. Thats my opinion "sticking to it" The Regal check out my webpage and my you tube videos link to you tube through webpage http://blueregal.angelfire.com/ Oh and lastly if there is anything i can do to help you let me know always willing to help a new guy i know what it feels like to have ooooooooooodles of questions and not really know where to turn for answers, if i cant help you maybe i can point you in the right direction to get the help you need!


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I just read Kormsen's reply.  I agree, that is probably the best suggestion so far!  Low cost and very simple to get started and go from there.   Great idea.  

Raymond


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

G Baby, I started with Track power, wanting to go the cheap route, and soon found in the Pacific Northwest that track cleaning is a chore, even on a small raod like mine, plus I wanted sound and multiple locos running. So it was either DCC or Battery/RC. I decided on battery rc and built my first loco using an Annie, Train Engineer trackside and RC car batteries, easy to do, and a pleasure to run, I used to use it to pull the track cleaner so my other stuff could run. 
Made the transisition to Battery RC with the rest, using Airwire and Pheonix sound and do not regret the investment. 
However, you might want to look at the QSI boards, they can switch between DC/DCC and RC Airwire very easily and provide good sound. They were not in the picture when I started converting, I probably would go with those now, but i have an investment in current equipment and want to stay consistent. Most of all, put some track down and run a train! It is the best way to learn. Good luck, Nick


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Battery is by far CHEAPER.. when you add in all the factors. 
thats it for me.


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## Fred (Jan 2, 2008)

You're lucky you are thinking about the question of battery/track power now. I made the mistake of rushing into things when i started out. Since I started with the Bachman R/C battery engine 1st, I started out with 250 aluminum. Had problems with keeping the eng on track plus pulling power left a lot to be desired so I thought I'd go track power. Replaced all the 250 with 332 aluminum acc't weather playing havoc (along with the kids and 100 lb+ Retriever) and the 250 just wasn't holding up very well. The 332 was stronger & the Big hauler ran somewhat better, bought 2 more Aristo engs (FA & RS-3), had trouble keeping the aluminum rail clean plus hadn't used rail clamps so track power was a problem. Replaced all the aluminum with Aristo brass & LGB switches. Started buying railclamps, got a 10 amp power supply, put in a reverse loop, ran some what better but not like I was used to on my HO basement layout. Decided to convert the FA & RS-3 over to RCS battery - best decision I ever made. Enlarged the railroad to a point to reverse loop, started "operations", railroad is fun again to operate. Bottom line is I spent (wasted) a lot of time & money because i hadn't researched things enough 7 rushed into it - take your time & decide what & how you want to run your railroad,you'll save a lot of time & $$$$ in the process.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Dick,
  One other thing to consider - while _your_ proposed layout may be a small point to point, not everybody's is _and you may want to run your engine on somebody else's layout _(Marty Cozad's North Table Creek Garden Railroad comes immediately to mind...) and you will limit yourself if you can only run track power! I know because that's what happened to me in 2004! I couldn't run anything because the layout wasn't track powered! It wasn't until last year that I was able to start "visiting" other railroads. Man oh man! _That _is *FUN!!  *


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2008)

G-baby, 

one last point: nothing hinders you, to run battery powered locos on powered track. but you can't run trackpowered locos if you have no powered track. 

but all in all, before you asked you could only guess. now you got so many pros and contras, that you easily can make an estimated guess. 
that is progress!


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree, keep it simple, easy way to remember is ,battery power is pros and track power is cons./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gifThere's something missing from this discussion. No one has mentioned a popular alternative to track and battery power.
Some of us prefer live steam. 

Harvey C.
SA1838


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess LS doesn't come up much because it really is limited run times.  And unless you have RC with it you have to have to walk beside it.
I have never seen LS doing switching type moves.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Get a water pump on it and a big gas tank and you can go for a LONG time. Jerry


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You guys miss my reply on page one? I thought I was just being ignored!


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## G-baby (Mar 25, 2008)

I haven't posted any questions or comments today, as I had a slight problem with my breating. Nothing serious just had to rest and take it  easy for a while, havent had a problem for quite a spell, until today. But I am still here and I believe that I will take Kormsens' advice and get a Bachman set to start with and see how I like it.
As for going live steam the city I live in has so many ordnances we have to abide by its' like living in the movie "BIG BROTHER", I do know for a fact that a city ordnance is why the kids train at one of the local city parks is a gasoline powered F diesel replica in what I believe is 12" inch gauge or there-a-bouts. It would be nice to see a live steam loco pulling the cars the kids & adults ride in instead of a gas powered diesel replica.
Just one question for now do the Bachman sets use battery or track power, not that it makes any difference, I am just curious.


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## JerryB (Jan 2, 2008)

G-baby: 

I too would recommend a Bachmann set. Very good starting place and excellent value for money. 

The Bachmann sets as well as virtually all commercially available LS trains are track powered. The folks using battery power either do their own conversions or have the conversions done by the R/C vendor or a third party. The conversions are generally fairly easy and the really good vendors are very helpful in solving problems and providing support to the do it yourself folks. 

I only use battery power + R/C. Just not interested in crawling around on my knees struggling with track conductivity, outdoor power supplies and (especially) track cleaning. I did try track power for a few weeks almost 20 years! Been 100% self-contained (all equipment & batteries in the locomotive) battery power + R/C control since and would never consider going back. I use Tony Walsham's RCS radio control systems, installed by Dave Goodson (MLS screen name "Curmudgeon") of NWRCS and am extremely pleased with the results. 

Good luck with your first LS purchase. 

Happy RRing, 

Jerry


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## KYYADA (Mar 24, 2008)

I don't want to steal the tread but does anyone out there have a rapid charger wired into part of their layout to charge the batteries on the fly?  I wouldn't think it would be hard to maintain on say a siding or part of the mainline as long as you could control the polarity with sensors and relays.  This would at least extend the run times, just a thought.  I just bought some track for my live steam shay just a simple dogbone but I know what will eventually happen...tracks everywhere so I was thinking about trying something like this when the time comes.

Johnny


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2008)

Dick, 

thinking about your health... 
you maybe should opt for a layout, that is at table hight. even in the garden. 
(to evade kneebending exercises) 

... save you got a strong wife or gardener at hand...

-----------

semper vaporo,

recommend steam to a person with respiration problems?


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By kormsen on 03/29/2008 9:36 AM
If you like steam locomotives, buy a Bachmann Anniversary set, an oval of metal track, and “Just do it!”


that was the best advice, you got till now! 
do it, and then add little by little, what you feel is needed next.

This is exactly what I did.   I bought a bunch of track  ( used) and started laying down track.    It was a disaster.  But  What I leared  from it  was great.  First I found  GARDEN RAILWAYS  MAGAZINE.    Then I found THE BIG TRAIN SHOW.    I  learned a lot there .   Then I found MLS.    Then my education  advanced to  LIGHT SPEED.   Then on  the way back on a road trip to Chicago  I stopped by Mary Cozad.   Then I  was coverted to Battery Power.   


So  Get out there.   Lay some track.   Experieance  Problems. The come back here for  Answers.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Talk about limited run times Battery is about as bad as LS.  For most folks concidering battery it depends a lot on how many locos you may end up with and how many at a time you may want to run.  Pros and cons as they say.  I preferr the DCC can about run them any where I want and even have battery plugs so if I did go to a battery run RR still can do.  Matter of fact can even run on just old DC.  So there are a lot of options.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 03/30/2008 4:30 AM
Dick, 

thinking about your health... 
you maybe should opt for a layout, that is at table hight. even in the garden. 
(to evade kneebending exercises) 

... save you got a strong wife or gardener at hand...

-----------

semper vaporo,

recommend steam to a person with respiration problems?


 I didn't say he should be doing coal --- indoors!  Butane and alcohol are not smoky nor terribly poluting... both COULD be done in an enclosed area (but also the concentrated fumes are not healthy to anyone, respiratory problems or not).

I have chemical allergies that most people do not have... tobacco, nearly all room deodorizers (candle sense, (tm) Glade sprays, etc.), potpourri, many perfumes (Amy Vanderbilt is OK!, but Sea Breeze will knock me down!), and Latex.  I don't go to some stores and I have to be careful which aisles I go down in the Grocery store (I have to hold my breath to go buy laundry soap because on the other side of that aisle are the candles, room deodorizers and potpourri!).  I don't go to some friends homes because they have potpourri and "plug in" perfume sprayers that they have gotten so used to that they get more to keep that "utter stink!" noticeable to themselves... I cannot even walk up to their front porch!  I cannot go to outdoor venues (ball games, etc.) where I get stuck sitting next to the total idiot that thinks that just because he is "outside" it is okay for him to light up a cigarette.  I don't go to indoor venues (movies, etc.... even Church!) because I am invariably stuck seated next to the smoker that enjoyed a smoke on the way to the place.

My engines burn alcohol and I have learned to NOT use certain brands and to keep myself "up-wind" and away from the chimney.  I have never had a "problem" with Butane fumes, although I don't "like" the odor of the raw product.

None of that is to say that Dick (G-Baby) would react the same way, but it is something he might consider, given his stated love of Steam Locomotives.  Due to his "newness" to the G-scales, he might not of known that this aspect was available in this scale.  Judicious care could allow something more than the electric simulation.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Track power is only good up to a certain size, then connection/joiner maintanence and track cleaning become burdonsom. This is where RC has the destinct advantage as you can run anytime without worrying about track power issues. I would not use track power on anything larger than a 100 lin ft or so, anything larger I would seriously consider R/C. If you can afford to start with R/C, do it, while it complicates the loco building process a little, it greatly simplifies layout building as you dont have to have miles of complicated ungerground wiring to deal with and I feel the simplification of the layout building greatly offsets the small addition of extra work on the engines. Good luck with it and post progress pictures. 

As for the B-mann set I've always felt the 3 window cab version could easily pass for a standard guage engine as is, no changes really needed other than maybe filling in the lead window., the two window version always looked more like a narrow gauge engine to me. 
Yes I know the Tweetsie proto has 3 windows


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2008)

Three Windows...yes, but with one welded over...there is a story there, but I can't remember right off hand...oh and again, I vote for Battery Pwr!


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't want to steal the tread but does anyone out there have a rapid charger wired into part of their layout to charge the batteries on the fly? 




If you're going to park your train on a siding to charge it, might as well have a connector. You don't have to worry about the rails or wheels being dirty.


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Dick,
Lots of good comments dealing with your question. The MM&G has about 900 feet of brass track and although it’s rails are powered I also run a lot of battery. Here is what I have found works the best for me.
 
If you have larger engines, you will want to run track power if you plan on operating for more than a couple of hours.
Battery power works great for the smaller engines that don’t pull much juice. My operation is about 60% battery and 40% rail power.
The larger power is limited to the main line of about 600 feet. I don’t worry about cleaning the track on the other 300 feet as it’s 100% limited to battery power.  
Track power requires regular cleaning of the rails. In my case this operation is performed by pulling 2 Artisto track cleaning cars behind one of my battery powered engine. After about 45 minutes the track is ready for normal operation utilizing track power.
If you go with track power, invest the time up front to get good mechanical and electrical connections between all the joints. The cheapest method is to solder wire jumpers between each rail joint. The alternative is to use rail clamps, which work good, but are rather expensive if you have a lot of track. It’s much easier to do it right the first time, than to spend time later on tracking down intermittent connections.
There are draw backs for both track and battery power. Track power requires occasional cleaning of the track. Battery power requires charging the batteries after each use, or just prior to each use.
The track cleaning process requires less time and effort than the battery charging process. In my case I have to carry each of my 6 battery cars about 300 feet into the house each evening for the charging process. I have no AC power located in the vicinity of the railroad.
 
Have fun.
Mark
http://community.webshots.com/user/mvgilger


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## Reylroad (Mar 9, 2008)

Dick, 

I use R/C-battery power exclusively. I'm too old to be cleaning track all the time and I don't enjoy soldering feeder wires.I use Airwire 900 and another more obsolete system. As far as batteries, I go to my local Target and buy AA Nickle Metal Hydride batteries. I use no more than 12volts worth for all my locos. The largest being a 2-8-0 and a shay. I get an hour and a half to two hours per charge and then just install another 12volt batter pack when needed. 

I also use some straight battery power(a DPDT center off toggle) for locos and track trucks just to run around. That's real cheap. For operations I turn to the Airwire. By the way, airwire is so cool that before I got it I rarely ran anything. Now I'm constantly running something. 

I don't know about those great big hugh locomotives, but I think they would run on 12 volts too. 

Another thing to think about is the difference in cost for aluminum track vs brass track. 

Tom Rey 
San Diego


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## rayjturner (Feb 20, 2008)

Track power or battery? -- both! Once you make the investment in R/C, which provides for a fun walk-along experience, stopping for stations, having meets, realistic bell and whistle usage, etc., use track power with on-board battery backup. This gives the longest run times without having to clean track before you can run trains. I'm using this approach on an Annie and a Mallet with batteries in a trailing car. The Annie also has some smaller batteries in the tender so I can turn the engine on a turntable without the battery car. When guests come over I can be running a train in 2 minutes. For longer running, after a few laps using battery power to pull a track cleaning car, the track power takes over. In the Spring I just have to clean the track once with a drywall sander to get the winter gunk off.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2008)

Runtime: 

with my short trains and the Bachmann "Annie" I usually get 4+ hours continuous operation with Sierra sound, directional GOW Lighting and no smoke. I have 14.4v NiCad in Tender as supplied by TOC. 

my Thommy-Mack will go 6-8+ pulling short consist-constant GOW lighting and no sound...it operates on 9.6NiMh with DPDT switch on roof for ease of use by the kids! 

Charging is a breeze for me...plug into MAHA charger and leave it alone for a few hours and it is ready to go. 

Currently one loop-appx 120'+ with Grades 

cale 

cale


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dick, 

I know the battery mafia is strong here, but I think that there are some draw backs to battery. Ruuning trains in endless circles with smoke units, lights, and digital sound units cranked up will limit your run times. 

Stainless Steel track, while slightly more costly, does not have the insulating oxidation found with brass. Cleaning of stainless is done much more simply. I use an aristo track cleaning car when necessary. Initially, the railroad was done with wires jumping from one connection to the next. This was not very successful. Last summer I rewired the layout with three feeders. 

In my opinion, it is a lot simpler just to hook up wires and go. You can run any train whenever you want, unless the power is out. And if it is out, your batteries will only get you so far. 

Mark


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2008)

Mark and all; 
It has been my experience (and a ltd one at that) that 4+ hours of train running is about the max the Kids and I can take. The Mack goes on for longer because it is so quiet, that I honestly forget it's on the track and leave it out till dark, and I glance out the window to see a white light running around the track. There have been many occasions (written about here on MLS) that I have forgotten to charge after a long days run, and still was able to get a few hours of running with the Annie/Mack even after it sitting on the shelf for over a week or so. 
I do not install smoke generators in my locos (personally not interested in wispy fake smoke) and the GOW bulbs offer a great "cheap" light w/o the glare of the LED's... 
If my home power is out, then I'm "generating" and could charge if needed, but I'm more concerned about other things than trains during those time. Although I am considering installing a small PV system to run my MAHA charger that way I can claim to be a "Green" RR! 
In my installs the Sound is powered by the on-board batteries "traction" and I have seen no reason not to run, at an acceptable level to enhance the experience. I can't tell that it takes away from the total run time, because I've never run w/o it? 
it all goes back to a personal choice...one that I made after reading here and LSC for about a year or so-weighing all the variables...and determining that 'My' RR would be best suited by Battery Power. 

Is battery power the "cheapest" way to begin powering your trains...that depends...is it the best way, many of us believe so... 

cale-the Chief


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

I'm going to try battery and track power together. I think each has their advantage and there is no reason both can't co-exist on the same layout.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I usually run my battery locos on track powered layouts. Sometimes MTS layouts.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

You can run battery powered trains on any layout, but you have to run track power trains on track power layouts!


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## Dan Moore (Jan 3, 2008)

Whats track power and batteries for ? Fill with water , steam oil , fuel , light the fire and kick the tires !! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

If you want to let your trains run automatically, doing all sorts of cool things, like slowing and stopping at the water tower, stopping and waiting for another train to clear a crossing, running a "leap frog" where one pulls in as one pulls out, automatic point-to-point, etc., etc., etc., track power with simple block control is the cheapest, easiest, and most efficient way to achieve this. 
We run seven trains automatically (three point-to-point and four on loops with two leap-frogging) on about 600 feet of track using the following plan. I do open houses by myself and just let the trains run themselves "hands off" for hours on end with very few interuptions.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote: "Posted By toddalin on 03/31/2008 5:10 PM If you want to let your trains run automatically, doing all sorts of cool things, like slowing and stopping at the water tower, stopping and waiting for another train to clear a crossing, running a "leap frog" where one pulls in as one pulls out, automatic point-to-point, etc., etc., etc., track power with simple block control is the cheapest, easiest, and most efficient way to achieve this." 

I would like to point out that G-Scale Graphics Critter Controls have added automation to the battery power portfolio. Station stops, and point-to-point back 'n forth operations are presently available, with more things to come in the future.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

So has RCS with the Boomerang range of automatic battery operation.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 03/31/2008 5:27 PM 
Quote: "Posted By toddalin on 03/31/2008 5:10 PM If you want to let your trains run automatically, doing all sorts of cool things, like slowing and stopping at the water tower, stopping and waiting for another train to clear a crossing, running a "leap frog" where one pulls in as one pulls out, automatic point-to-point, etc., etc., etc., track power with simple block control is the cheapest, easiest, and most efficient way to achieve this." 
I would like to point out that G-Scale Graphics Critter Controls have added automation to the battery power portfolio. Station stops, and point-to-point back 'n forth operations are presently available, with more things to come in the future. 



Read my lips. Cheapest and easiest to implement! Works for one..., works for all (in some cases requiring the addition of just a magnet).


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I did this thread not start up on (is battery forum dead) thread.?? 
Just wait till solar power comes.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Marty, 
You didn't start this thread. G-Baby did.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote: "Read my lips. Cheapest and easiest to implement!" 

Well Mr. Toddalin, I think the battery vs: track power equation is the same with or without automation. 

The cost to achieve reliable track operation with track power, and perhaps add automation, is a large initial outlay of cash. But the more locomotives you add to your fleet, that require no modification to operate that way, the cheaper it gets, per locomotive. 

With battery power, you can get away with a small initial investment on track that doesn't need to conduct, but for every loco you buy, you pay the price of conversion to battery power. 

Where and how we all spend our money, is an individual decision. There is no right or wrong. Its all trade offs. 

Now, as far as "reading your lips" goes, I was just making a statement, adding some facts that I felt might be missing from your post, so as not to mislead anyone new to the hobby. Not trying to start a fight.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I keep adding engines and IF its not Aristo (which is totally ready) it only cost me $2.50 for a set of plugs. Then they resale easier because I converted them for the next person. 
I simply never argue with any one whos wrong.... 

Speaking of adding some facts, I've been called a number of times the day of a club meeting and the host ask me to bring an engine/batt car because they are having problems with dead spots on their RR. Save the day... 

Have you ever heard of somebody saying , can you bring your track power over ,,please, my RC unit isn't working.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

[No message]


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 03/31/2008 7:03 PM

Quote: "Read my lips. Cheapest and easiest to implement!" 
Well Mr. Toddalin, I think the battery vs: track power equation is the same with or without automation. 
The cost to achieve reliable track operation with track power, and perhaps add automation, is a large initial outlay of cash. But the more locomotives you add to your fleet, that require no modification to operate that way, the cheaper it gets, per locomotive. 
With battery power, you can get away with a small initial investment on track that doesn't need to conduct, but for every loco you buy, you pay the price of conversion to battery power. 
Where and how we all spend our money, is an individual decision. There is no right or wrong. Its all trade offs. 
Now, as far as "reading your lips" goes, I was just making a statement, adding some facts that I felt might be missing from your post, so as not to mislead anyone new to the hobby. Not trying to start a fight. 





No problem. 

But I don't know why you think batteries are cheaper to start with. 

Regardless of what I would run, I would NEVER use aluminum track. (And it was only minimally cheaper than the $2.05/foot I paid for my new brass track.) It's way to fragile for me. I step and even walk on my brass track all the time with no ill effects. Try that with aluminum. 

You can't solder to aluminum so adding jumpers is even more of a pain than with brass. And yes, I would still use at least one rail of the track for a common rail for my lights and turnouts even if I ran batteries. 

And no, I would never consider using rail clamps. That's ridiculous to pay more for the clamps than the track. I feel that anyone who uses clamps (with brass of nickel-silver track) instead of jumpers has more money than brains and time. Just my opinion. 

A nice power pack is cheaper than a start-up battery set-up, and it can run any train you buy. 

Automation is CHEAP and I continually post schematics and diagrams on this forum to achive all sorts of automation for just a couple dollars using Internet surplus parts. Anyone who can use a soldering iron and install a battery system, should be able to wire up a simple automation system. Even the LGB system is just a couple reed switches and diodes. 

I'm just not seeing any real savings for the battery systems here.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2008)

I continually post schematics and diagrams on this forum to achive all sorts of automation for just a couple dollars using Internet surplus parts.


could you give some hints, where to look for them? 
'automation' in combination with 'just a couple of dollars' sounds interesting.


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## G-baby (Mar 25, 2008)

I didn't mean to start a little donny-brook about whether to use battery or track power, sorry ! 
Since I have decided to purchase a Bachmann Mountaineer starter set and give it a try, I probably won't be considering battery power for awhile. 
I have another question concerning the Bachmann track. I believe that the info I have read on the Bachmann track, says that the Bachmann track is hollow tin that makes me think it is similar to the Lionel track and I am assuming that the Bachmann track connects together in the same manner as the Lionel track, am I correct ? 
I hope I don't cause any more donny-brooks with this question. 

Dick (G-baby):


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

G-Baby - Not to worry. This battery power vs: track power debate is a regular feature here on MLS. It is merely a healthy debate. If you are planning on running outdoors, you do not want to use Bachmann track. It if for indoor use only. All outdoor track is made of solid materials; brass, aluminum, or stainless steel. This is also another regular debate, so if needed, lets start another thread for that one.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 03/31/2008 7:45 PM 
I continually post schematics and diagrams on this forum to achive all sorts of automation for just a couple dollars using Internet surplus parts.

could you give some hints, where to look for them? 
'automation' in combination with 'just a couple of dollars' sounds interesting.

These will get you started. If you are interested, the Bump A.S.S. can be made even easier and cheaper than shown. BTW, By Del's own admition (see the first link), the Critter Control can't do what the Bump A.S.S. can. (Sorry Del, couldn't resist.  
http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi.../1/view/topic/postid/13566/Default.aspx#13612 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...ge/1/view/topic/postid/9473/Default.aspx#9473


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2008)

Dick, 

if bachmann rail is still the same, they sold a dozen years back, you just shove the rails together. 











Todalin, thank you.


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## jamarti (Jan 2, 2008)

G-Baby: The Bachman track is hollow and NOT for outside. It will rust at the first hint of moisture.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

But I don't know why you think batteries are cheaper to start with. 




That's easy. No power supply. No track wiring. No need for electric access.


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

This is an intresting topic. For me just getting into the hobby I really dont see how Battery power is cheaper. Maybe if I do I simple on/of switch with no controler. Yes the brass track cost more than AL but AL in my area would never hold up. I would have to go brass no matter what. You dont have to buy rail clamps you can just do jumper wires. The controler can cost a lot but that is a one time deal. Battery power no matter what way you do it, it still cost more. After so many charges you have to replace the batteries and everytime you get a new engine you have to convert it to Battery. If you are like me I have no skills in electronics. I would have to pay someone to do it. Dont get me wrong I would love to be able to go battery but it is no way cheaper, especially for someone starting out with very little money to spend. If I were to take a Bachmann Aniversary engine and I wanted to convert it to battery how much can this be done for. (cheapest but reliable system) no labor and labor. Would it cost more than what you pay for the engine itself before the conversion.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm running track power an using Aristo's TE receivers to get independent control of each train. It works well although the TE receivers seem a little fragile and I've thought about trying airwire. I can run three train and control each one. I've got clamps on a lot of the joints and it runs well on my roughly 400 feet of track. I inherited a bunch of LGB stuff, which is how I got started, and it was all track power and battery was hard to figure out. So I'm using track power. 

Battery power has some real attractions--I could make point to point loops with no hassles, for example. Battery power is more "prototypical" in that each engine is its own power source. I could use RCS, which seems to be very good. 

Using aluminum rail? Cheaper, which is good, but not a good option for me do to the heavy kid traffic on my layout, and it's hard to find. I'm also--forgive me--a little skeptical of some of the run times claimed for batteries. If I run my electric drill constantly under load I'm not going to get more than an hour out of it. And plus batteries degrade--they need to be replaced and they aren't cheap, and then you need to buy the right charger and keep them straight. 

If I had a really big layout I might switch to batteries, or if battery technology gets better, which it probably will although it's not moving at the same pace as other technologies


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

...I would NEVER use aluminum track. (And it was only minimally cheaper than the $2.05/foot I paid for my new brass track.) It's way to fragile for me. I step and even walk on my brass track all the time with no ill effects. Try that with aluminum...


I have, and I can do so quite easily provided the track is laid down on a firm foundation. And "firm foundation" can simply be floated on crusher fines. There are parts on my dad's Woodland Railway where the only way to access the trains in the case of a derailment is to walk on the track. It's now coming into its 28th year, and the only sections of rail that have had to be replaced are due to tree roots growing and misaligning the track, not because of "giant missteps." 

My old railroad was all code 250 aluminum. While I didn't make a habit of walking on the track, there were times during routine maintenance where it was inevitable. Never had an ounce of trouble, even on the occasional instance where the electrical cord of the leaf blower snagged and pulled it out of the ballast. No kinks, twists, or other. Tree branches, boulders, and other large things are a different story, but other materials will fare just as poorly in those extreme cases. 

My choice to go with brass for my current railroad had nothing to do with strength. Rather it was purely an aesthetic decision. I liked AMS's new track, and not having to thread rails onto ties seemed to be a definite plus. 

Later, 

K


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

This is a lively subject and its all in fun, battery folks always win any way. 
No track power person has ever beat me on paper pricing out how I do my system. 

beginners do what they have to do to get started , over time you grow into the direction that works best for you. 
There is no right or wrong way, its whats reasonable for you to keep the RR running affordable.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I wish there were a really huge tutorial somewhere on battery and R/C operation to include onboard battery non/r/c. Most folks learn by trail and error or they have some knowledge of electronics or a friend


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jamarti on 04/01/2008 6:11 AM
G-Baby: The Bachman track is hollow and NOT for outside. It will rust at the first hint of moisture. 




What he said, Bachmann claims the track is stainless steel, if it is I'm a Chinese Fighter Pilot!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif 

It will rust away with a speed that is truely amazing if left outdoors, I'm glad they dont make autos out of the same steel./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif 

Start saving your pennies and get some good track, either USA or Aristo brass track or REAL stainless steel track from the same companies if you can spend a little more. There are other sources, but LGB is still MIA and PIKO prices are FUBAR ($8 a foot???). Stainless is great if your planning track power with better conductivity and has track cleaning issues less than with brass track, but if your thinking eventually going R/C battery, just get the brass track, when you switch you wont care about conductivity anymore.  

Be aware, brass track prices have skyrocketed in the last year, so be prewarned about sticker shock, be preparred to pay between $5 and $6 a linear foot for track. I suggested stainless becuase now it aint much more $$ to go that way and is better off in the long run. Track is the one thing about large scale thats gotten real sore in a real short time. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/pinch.gif 

Good luck the Mountaineer set, its a good set to start with, alot of us began the same way, my starter was a Silverton Flyer set. Still runs fine.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

PS one more thing....try to pick up a basic LGB powerpack on EvilBay, the pack that comes with the Bachmann set will power the oval that the set comes with but its a 1/2 amp pack and will be inadequate for anything larger than that basic loop, the base LGB pack has 1 amp, and can easily power up a 10 x 20 layout no problem, they are often very cheap on evilBay (got one for $10) and will get you going on your layout far better than the twinky little pack B'mann provides, but dont toss it, keep it for your workbench, for testing engines, its pretty good for that.


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## work4fil (Jan 4, 2008)

As always, I am lurking and reading with interest. I have to agree with Marty on all fronts. I won't even question how he does his system, but we will all do what we have to do to get started. When I look at the pictures of his layout with his signature A-B-A F units on the bridge and it is obvious he is doing it right. This is certainly a lively topic and I am really getting a "charge" out of the battery movement. 

Fil


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Marty, 

As someone who want's to go battery I will ask, how do you do yours?? Best way to learn is to ask someone who knows what their doing. 

Thanks Chuck


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Battery car is the best and easiest way to go if you are just starting into battery. I've been into battery for about four years and am very happy with a battery car. I do very little switching if any. So I don't mined a car hooked to the engine, all the time. I had the 18 volt drill so all I'm out is the $300 for the A/W. You can get well over that in rail clamps.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Trains on 04/03/2008 3:31 PM
I had the 18 volt drill so all I'm out is the $300 for the A/W. You can get well over that in rail clamps.




Maybe in rail clamps..., but $300 buys all the jumper wire you would ever need and still leaves $290+ for a nice engine. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Who says you have to pick one or the other? 

A battery loco is a great accessory on a track powered layout. Also useful for dragging a track cleaning car around to get ready for the track power equipment.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Takes about 1/2 hour to convert a engine to battery power. How long dose it take to soldier all those wires on?/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif Plus then you have to clean the track when it get dirty./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/pinch.gif


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Trains on 04/04/2008 8:18 AM 
Takes about 1/2 hour to convert a engine to battery power." border=0>" border=0> How long dose it take to soldier all those wires on?/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif" border=0>" border=0> Plus then you have to clean the track when it get dirty./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/pinch.gif" border=0>" border=0>

1/2 hour??? Get real, it takes longer than that to put in a sound system. Just taking apart the engine and trying to find the wires to isolate takes more time than that. (Yes, I've done battery conversions.) " border=0> 
And when I put on jumpers, they work for all my engines. I don't need to put separate jumpers on the track for each of my more than a dozen engines. If done right, and efficiently, jumpers only take a couple minutes longer than adding rail clamps. I do several sections together on the work bench, then take them outside an place them. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif" border=0> 
Besides that, there are some trains that you will never be able to convert over to R/C-batteries due to spacial limitation (e.g., Accucraft's brass railcar, Todd's Turbo Tortoise Toten' Tube Train, etc.). 

Maybe you're just in too much of a hurry: 

"I'm in a hurry to get things done 
Oh I rush and rush until life's no fun 
All I really gotta do is live and die. 
I'm in a hurry and don't know why!" 

Or maybe you're just lazy.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

We can sit here and argue about this all day and not a thing will change! I changed to battery because it is a lot easier for me, and I tried of CLEANING TRACK!


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Trains on 04/04/2008 8:18 AM 
Takes about 1/2 hour to convert a engine to battery power." border=0>" border=0> How long dose it take to soldier all those wires on?/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif" border=0>" border=0> Plus then you have to clean the track when it get dirty./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/pinch.gif" border=0>" border=0>

1/2 hout for those who know how to do it, but how much does it cost for the materials and then how much to have someone instale it? It may take longer to solder jumpers but it is a lot cheaper. I would have to work more in overtime hours (save $ for battery) than it takes to solder wire. I think for someone starting out it is much more expensive. I would love to go battery but it just is not feasable starting out. Maybe once I have the layout I want and get more knowledge in electonics, then maybe it is the cheaper route.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

On the subject of cost, I believe it is a wash. To properly wire a layout for track power, for multiple trains to operate fully independently requires a cab control setup. This entails separate power supplies for each train to be run, cab selector switches for every block, a central panel and literally miles of wiring. All this on top of expensive track and the labour to install and maintain. None comes cheap ... 
Now, if you will run only one train in a circle ... but that is not what I am talking about here. 
The smaller scales moved to DCC a while back to get away from exactly this hassle and expense though DCC also has its drawbacks. It requires power districts, decoder installs and especially clean track. Just ask those of us who use it in HO. 
Battery RC is not cheap but in the end is my choice. I believe that it costs about the same as traditional cab control or DCC but has greater flexibility than either for those of us who wish to simulate prototype operations. 
Regards ... Doug


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

One point that hardly ever comes up is 




That 
Most if not all of us battery folks was ONCE track power folks and I used to argue the other side also. Even Donny would not change after I did for a few years. 

So no matter what the issue or cost, we finally saw the light.... 
no more needs to be said I am so closed minded to track power that I can only pray for those who still believe in it.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 04/04/2008 5:32 PM

... 
So no matter what the issue or cost, we finally saw the light.... 
no more needs to be said I am so closed minded to track power that I can only pray for those who still believe in it." border=0>




And so, one day, likewise, ye shall see that ye are still in darkness and shall awaken to the reality of Live Steam!


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## Michael Tollett (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 04/01/2008 11:14 AM
This is a lively subject and its all in fun, battery folks always win any way. 
No track power person has ever beat me on paper pricing out how I do my system. 





Hiya Marty, 

Your statement here interested me. So could you give a brief cost analysis per engine for your battery conversions? Also, an estimate on time for converting each engine? 

thanks, 
Michael


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael 
to keep it simple. 
When I was track power I used the track side Aristo TE to control my track power. I also , as a home owner had a 18 volt battery drill for house hold use and for working on my trains. 
Donny came over one day and we was talking about these "strange battery people". 
He said , you have all the makings of on board battery right here. 
So I placed my TE in a gondola car, placed the 18 volt DC batt in the car. took one of my USAT engines turned it over and clipped all the wires that pick up power. The last wire to cut at the back of the loco I cut it, soldered on a plug wire that ran to the gon car. and off she went. 

Aristo now has battery ready locos. 
It cost me $2.50 for the radio shack plug at that time. 
I then sold my 10 amp power pack and two others. 
No more soldering jumper wires, no more block controls, no need for rail clamps. 

since then I have grown into the more complex methods of onboard engine control etc. 
at the time I was buying the TE when it was on sale as a set for $119 and getting a free receiver from AC which gave me two more battery cars, I change around cars when ever I want. 
I bought two Mac 70s, takes me about half hour to route the plug wires and clip the old pick up wires. As Donny said, the more you do it , the faster you get. 
I can convert the USAT Big Boy in about an hour. 
thats the Cozad story of seeing the light. 

PS I try never to buy a battery that takes longer to charge than you get run time. 
I don't worry about how heavy the battery is because I run 100 pd trains or more. I weight all my locos down for better traction. 
I run 2,3 locos per battery car , if the batt goes dead I can change it out and keep going.


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## Michael Tollett (Jan 3, 2008)

I gotcha. So when you pull a consist into a siding, and have another consist ready to go, you can drop all of the consist, pull your engines out to the other siding, then hook up to the second consist and carry a complete new train on its' way, yes?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

If I see the locos slowing or not responding I can do a station stop. "change crew", pop in another battery and off she goes. 









two wires in , two wires out. 

the 3 E units in my sig is powered by the baggage car behind them, a 2nd battery powers the car lights. the first two units also has a speaker in each, the first has sound board


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## Michael Tollett (Jan 3, 2008)

Wasn't the question, but I figured it out. So you cannot run engines without having the battery follow car hooked up, correct? So that is one car that always has to be attached to whatever engines that you run, and you can't run engines by themselves? 

So in essence, those who wish to run battery powered operations, but do not want the follow car but want to be able to run their engines stand alone at times, would have to convert every engine with its' own TE setup, right?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I was answering to my old quote that you had posted on cheapness. I have Airwire and RCS in my switch engines to run alone. But the heavy mainline haulers have a battery car to cut cost and give me flexablitiy to run any lash ups I want. 
money management is key in this hobby. 

The coal train for example has its own battery car thus any one who wants to pull it can with their locos. 


(((Folks look at a battery car stuck to an engine, NOT TRUE, its a battery car for its own consist. )))) 


The stack train has its own and so does two mixed trains. 
My engines are free to pull which ever train I want. 
Once you become a large RR, many trains stay as unit trains.


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## Michael Tollett (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 04/06/2008 9:15 AM
Once you become a large RR, many trains stay as unit trains.




Now THAT I can certainly understand, especially with your setup!! Hopefully I'll get up there one of these years and see it in person, instead of listening to Larry's play by plays...LOL!!


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

One more point to think about, some folks like electric switches . If I was tied to a power pack and control board and IF the switch could not be seen from the control area you would walk over to make sure it was thrown. then you would walk over to uncouple the cars, then if the engine was on a dirty siding , you would walk back over to bump the loco to get it to move. 
On board batt, you are with your loco everywhere if you want. Your at the siding, clear any sticks, through the switch back the train, uncouple, pull out and throw the switch. 
Everything on my RR is manuel. 

The hours I used to spend soldering "free" jumper wires, and making sure voltage does not drop way over on the other side. etc. 
The "time" savings in all the areas makes the hour preparing any engine nothing. Besides, my locos are all weathered and "worked, played with" Kadees applied before they hit the line. 
Once my locos hit the line there is nothing else to do to then, I never clean the wheels or worry if the chrome is coming off. 
I don't have to spend $$ on DCC or program anything. Or buy fuel for the burner regularly and distilled water. 
My RR is ready at any moments notice of a visitor to come and run.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Except that eventually the batteries go flat and you have to replace them ($$$). /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/pinch.gif And if they get very little use, I find that this problem is even worse. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/doze.gif


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 04/06/2008 11:36 AM

Except that eventually the batteries go flat and you have to replace them ($$$). And if they get very little use, I find that this problem is even worse.


That can be a bit of a pain, but IMHO it is worth the effort. As with all the others who originally ran straight track power--and that has to be most everyone--once I switched to remote battery operation I never looked back. It IS expensive and there are special problems already noted that are specific to remote battery operation, but I can't even conceive of going back to track power. This has been a great thread. I especially appreciate Marty's comments.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I date and save the battery recites so if they go bad under warrenty I can send it in. I get about 3 years out of a fresh (newly dated, not old new dated 
batt) 
I happen to use these for work also, thus , the only real question is how long will a batt last for what its used for and which size of batt would be best for the intended use. 
My main point is , it can cost as much or as little as you want to spend. 
All new folks I tell them to go track power untill they KNOW they want to stay in the hobby or not. then they can learn from threads like this. 
Batt/RC would not be on the market if there was not a need for it. thats why there is so many types. 

well !!! Back out to play trains , its a nice ,windy day so I'm moving plants around because we use REAL dirty and real plants for our RRs.


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## Art (Jan 3, 2008)

I started running track power and then moved to battery. The more I went to battery the more I missed track power. I now run about 20% battery and 80% track power but with over 50 locos that is a bunch of both. I find myself not enjoying the charging of batteries all the time, and changing them is not much fun either. When you run sessions of 1-2 hours and small trains I think both are about equal, but with long trains and MU of locos plus extended runtimes...... track is what I do. With battery you still have to follow the consist around and you so what is the big deal about being able to run as you please. Have you ever tried running 4 or more locos on the same mainline with battery? It is not as easy as it sounds as without a dispatcher someone always does their own thing and then there are crashes. If you have a very large layout with the ability to get on and off the layout or onto sidings then maybe battery, but it is not essential. Oh.... if you have setup all your locos with RC and not used battery cars you will see that battery can be expensive. I use both battery cars and internal control, and find that I like the battery car better. 

I would go to a layout that has both and give it a try before making up my mind. 

Art


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

During our open house in Sept there is 12 to 20 trains running on the 3 mains at once. no dispatcher, train wrecks once and awhile but they make great photo ops. 

personally, I hardly ever run more than one or two trains cause I'm lazy. 
I've run 4 power locos in a lash up but all my Aristo locos , two powered units can easily pull more than enough. 
Plus running 4 powered units you have to have a larger power pack, and if you run lighted USAT passenger cars ,they really drink the amps. 

As for keeping track of charged batts, thats a no brainer.


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## johnnyboy (Jan 25, 2008)

Great Thread everyone. Dick (G-baby) congrats on getting large responses to your threads, and glad that you are feeling more comfortable with MLS. Anyways, my question is has anyone tried battery power, with or without a follow car, in a LGB 4/4 III. I am starting a RhB line and am going to track power, unless I can get some good ideas how to convert the 4/4 II and 4/4 III to battery. There is plenty of room in the loco, but accessing is tough for battery changes. Just a lingering thought in my head and wanted to throw it out there for the brain stormers. 

Thanks Johnny


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## johnnyboy (Jan 25, 2008)

I did not mean to change or break the thread with my question. There is a lot of activity on this thread and my challenge with going with battery is stated above. 

Thanks 

Johnny


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Johnny 
Sorry I can't answer that, but I have converted LGB F units. then later sold them. 
One last thought then I'll stop. 
I only come on to threads like this if folks are pushing false info. 
then , its been going on for hundreds of years. 
the story of Moses in the good book. He tried hard to free his battery people from the nasty old track power ruler. And when he finally did ,,he lead them out to only have them fashion a new idol from a steam kettle on wheels. then God punished them. 
later they was lead into the land of RC batt and lived happly ever after. 
Amen.../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 04/06/2008 2:18 PM 
personally, I hardly ever run more than one or two trains cause I'm lazy. 

Ahhh, that's too bad. We're also lazy, but run seven trains simultaneously, automatically for our guests on about 600 feet of track, while we sit back in chairs sipping cool ones. Many of these operations are accompanied by automatic signals that keep rhythm with the trains. " 
Trains do all kinds of cool stuff too (stop at the station, slow and speed up, stop for water or coal, one pulls into another station releasing another to leave, trains wait for each other at the 30 degree crossing), that never fail to get attention (along with "How did you do that?") Most of these operations could not be done with battery power (unless you are extremely creative electronically).


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Marty, 

If I had your layout and enjoyed running trains the way that you do I too would be running battery powered trains. 

Since I instead prefer to operate my layouts via remote (track powered) control and I do not have the multiple operators you do, track power works far better for me. 

I admit that I for one do like (LGB) electric switches (about 150 of them - all trouble free). 

There are a couple of switches that are out of sight and important for me to know if they are thrown so I have lights that come on and tell me if they are incorrectly positioned. 

I don't have to walk anywhere to uncouple cars because I can use my LGB 21900/23900 auto-uncoupling switchers to pick up and drop off cars anywhere on my layouts. 

I think that the real difference is not a question of whether battery power or track power is best but rather how we individually enjoy running our trains and the local environment where we are running them. You like manual operations and I line to operate from a main control position. 

Your operation and layout are a great example of where battery power is at its best while mine may be a good example of where battery power would be a total disaster. 

At a train show this weekend kids ran my Thomas the Tank and LGB Circus Trains non-stop for 7 hours (14 running hours with no battery charging needed). My wife made a special trip for me because I had two inoperable cars. My LGB Bubble Car needed four AA batteries and my LGB Circus Sound Car needed a 9 volt battery. My only train expense from the show is that I now have to buy some more batteries.  

Batteries and track power - I could never convert you and you could never convert me - but that makes the hobby more interesting. 

Cheers, 

Jerry 



Posted By NTCGRR on 04/06/2008 10:25 AM
One more point to think about, some folks like electric switches . 


If I was tied to a power pack and control board and IF the switch could not be seen from the control area you would walk over to make sure it was thrown. 


then you would walk over to uncouple the cars, 


Everything on my RR is manuel.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Johnny, 

If you have plugs on one end you can run it that way. All my LGB engines 
I plug ino the light sockets. I take all the track pickups off and the brushes. 
I plug into the back in the light sockets with my battery car. I even run a A-B-A 
F units this way.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

In response to batteries going flat, I use the fairly inexpensive Energizer AA NiMH batteries, which I remove from the locomotive to charge in a separate charger. This does a few things. First, it allows me to constantly have a supply of fresh batteries to keep a loco going. Second, the charger senses bad cells, and won't charge that individual battery, allowing me to weed out the ones that go south without worrying about one bad cell keeping an entire pack from taking a full charge. In the "off season," I use these batteries for cameras, baby monitors, and other electronic gizmos. I keep my eyes open at Sam's Club every time I go in for good deals on them. 

I've heard reports that these batteries have a limit as to their output current. I've not experienced that, nor does  Energizer's Product Data Sheet  make any reference to such a limit. (In fact, the chart down the bottom shows battery discharge performance at a current rate of 5 amps). A batteries maximum current discharge is limited by the internal resistance of the battery itself, so that may have something to do with things. Regardless, I've found that I get between 2 and 3 hours of service out of a fully charged battery, which--mathematically--gives me an average current draw of right around 1 amp. I'm not racing around with long, heavy trains, but for my purposes they're fantastic. 

The other advantage to using removable AA batteries is that _when_ things go completely haywire during an open house and your "freshly charged" batteries have all dumped their power within 10 minutes, you can grab a handful of regular alkaline batteries to get you back up and running. 

Later, 

K


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## Art (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 04/06/2008 2:18 PM
During our open house in Sept there is 12 to 20 trains running on the 3 mains at once. no dispatcher, train wrecks once and awhile but they make great photo ops. 
personally, I hardly ever run more than one or two trains cause I'm lazy. 
I've run 4 power locos in a lash up but all my Aristo locos , two powered units can easily pull more than enough. 
Plus running 4 powered units you have to have a larger power pack, and if you run lighted USAT passenger cars ,they really drink the amps. 
As for keeping track of charged batts, thats a no brainer.




Marty, 
You have a very long mainline. Try it with only a couple of hundred feet and see what does happens. 

Art


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

anyone try lithium batteries or look into new technology for making batteries tiny and powerful and long-lasting (the Holy Grail)? 
with cell phones popular, for example, a lot of R&D is going in this direction; same with unmanned space vehicles. Surely would have train applications. Perhaps solar charging to to eliminate recharge  

Hope not opening new can of worms here


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## Big John (Jan 4, 2008)

When I first decided to install a garden railroad I read every thing I could get my hands on before I made the jump into track power or battery power. I chose battery power for a lot of reasons. But without a doubt the biggest one is to make life as easy as possible to maintain operations with the smallest amount of maintainence of the roadway. I just could not cope with constantly getting down on my hands and knees to check for problems with current flow through the rails and trains dying on switches. 

Every battery maker is up to their eyes in R&D to improve on battery performance. It only will get better for the toy car, plane and train hobbys in the future. 

I plan to make make my battery operated trains with the intention of converting them with the latest and greatest battery system that is just over the next hill. By that I mean having the battery packs installed in such a way that they can easily be removed for charging or when the time comes replacement with a new type. I assume the new battery packs will be smaller than what is currently available so they should fit into whatever space I presently use. Easily removable battery packs means I do not have to take the engine off line for a few hours just to charge the batteries. I also prefer to have the batteries in the engine or tender and not rely on a battery car whenever possible. 

I expect the equipment manufacturers will also move to a battery power option when they develop new engines as an advantage to sell them. It just makes sense to me that promoting our hobby with battery power installed and ready to run will make it a lot easier for new people to start enjoying our hobby. 

John


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Posted By Big John on 04/09/2008 10:33 AM
I also prefer to have the batteries in the engine or tender and not rely on a battery car whenever possible. 

I expect the equipment manufacturers will also move to a battery power option when they develop new engines as an advantage to sell them. It just makes sense to me that promoting our hobby with battery power installed and ready to run will make it a lot easier for new people to start enjoying our hobby. 
John




AMen, John


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

My solution is to put the batteries and radio in the engine. I hardly ever use a battery car. I will admit that it is a more expensive solution but I don't need a battery car. Take a look at my signature line. Remember this engine, Marty?


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

That's OK just as long as the manufacturers do not expect those of us who prefer track power to pay extra for batteries or battery capability that we have no need for. 

Every time a manufacturer adds an option or a switch (in my opinion) it adds just one more expense and one more place (switch) where an electrical failure can occur. 

So far I've had one loco that did not run until I removed a defective factory equipped decoder and another loco arrived with a defective factory power selector switch. Every time the manufacturer inserts something into the loco power circuit it is an additional expense and potential problem. 

I had a different but related problem with locomotives that came with factory installed decoders which resulted in fewer sound functions for analog operations. 

It's one thing to add switches and electronics into something that will be kept in a controlled environment but (in my opinion) may be asking for trouble by complicating circuits on products that are often stored in unheated, uncooled and damp environments such as "garden" railway locomotives. 

When we are dealing with inexpensive (cheap) switches and electrical/electronic components made in China I become even more apprehensive about complicating our locomotive wiring circuits. We just might end up paying for convenience with significantly lower dependability. 

Regards, 

Jerry 


Posted By Big John on 04/09/2008 10:33 AM
It just makes sense to me that promoting our hobby with battery power installed and ready to run will make it a lot easier for new people to start enjoying our hobby. 
John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There is a very well know installer in the NorthWest. He replaces all the cheap slide switches and eliminates extra wires and trouble points. 

Stuff he touches works forever. 

I have to agree with Jerry in that most manufacturers are adding functionality that not everyone wants to pay for, thus CHEAP slide switches, under gauge wire, cheap connectors, etc. 

It's a vicious cycle, people don't want to pay for extras they don't use, manufacturers need to keep ALL the facets of the hobby happy. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Earlier in this thread a question was raised about Lithium ion batteries. Answer is yes, they are used. Aristo even markets a Li ion battery and a suitable charger. 

Jerry made the very valid point that each time the wiring inside a loco is expanded to include more options, we all pay some price in extra cost and lost reliability. This is especially true since the manufacturers in a cost competitive world try to do things as cheaply as possible. 

We all see items in locos that we do not need. As a battery user, I am annoyed when I see smoke units or track sliders installed - just junk for me to pull and throw away. If I ran track power,I would be annoyed at locos wired backward to standard or that have polarity correcting switches. As a DCC user I would be thoroughly annoyed at proprietary circuitry in place of DCC standards. There is no easy way out - a manufacturer needs to make the installation of a choice of power as easy as possible for all users. 

Fortunately, standardized circuitry is very inexpensive. The trick of course is to agree on the standards. I am not sure that the requirements of all users are well understood and I am convinced that many large scale manufacturers do not give a d*&n about standards preferring their own proprietary approaches. 

Manufacturers have taken the first small steps to be more flexible toward all users. That will not be rolled back and we can only hope that they will make further progress on this over the coming years. 

Regards ... Doug


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2008)

Jerry I quoted you below!...... 

"....Every time a manufacturer adds an option or a switch (in my opinion) it adds just one more expense and one more place (switch) where an electrical failure can occur. 

Every time the manufacturer inserts something into the loco power circuit it is an additional expense and potential problem. 

I had a different but related problem with locomotives that came with factory installed decoders which resulted in fewer sound functions for analog operations. 

It's one thing to add switches and electronics into something that will be kept in a controlled environment but (in my opinion) may be asking for trouble by complicating circuits on products that are often stored in unheated, uncooled and damp environments such as "garden" railway locomotives. 

When we are dealing with inexpensive (cheap) switches and electrical/electronic components made in China I become even more apprehensive about complicating our locomotive wiring circuits. We just might end up paying for convenience with significantly lower dependability. 

Regards, 

Jerry" 


What is above looks much like our argument from a few months back in reference to the Ames Socket Proposal that in some form made it into the K..... 

cale


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Cale, 

I'm afraid I don't know what the Ames Socket Proposal is. 

In my opinion every manufacturer has a somewhat different approach to our hobby and it is when a manufacturer tries to be everything to everyone that they end up pleasing no one. 

Whether the manufacturer is Accu-Craft, Aristo-Craft, Aster, Bachmann, Hartland, LGB, USA or whatever I suspect I could usually tell the manufacturer just by how the products are made. 

Smoke units, sliders, lights, and even decoders etc. may be attractive and desirable for the track powered crowd but an unnecessary expense for the battery power folks. 

Just as Bachmann may be catering to the 1:20.3 crowd I see no harm in some manufacturers focusing on the battery power market while others focus on the track powered market. 

In order for manufacturers to succeed they need to make a profit. As time goes by I find myself buying more and more from fewer and fewer manufacturers but in reality we are really only talking about locomotives and perhaps coaches and cabooses since freight cars don't care what the power supply is. 

Perhaps the real problem is that there are not enough (old and new) garden railroaders to support the tremendous variety of products and manufacturers already available to us. As older garden railroaders (like me) reach a saturation point and run out of space to expand our railroads there has to be new buyers to take our place or we will end up flooding the market with our used toys as we get older and no longer are able to use our layouts. 

I would not be surprised to see smaller production runs of fewer models and at higher prices as manufacturers try to remain profitable with a shrinking market and shrinking dollar. 

Jerry 

Posted By calenelson on 04/09/2008 3:51 PM

What is above looks much like our argument from a few months back in reference to the Ames Socket Proposal that in some form made it into the K..... 
cale


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## Big John (Jan 4, 2008)

I envision the time when a manufacturer will package his engines with a list of options. Say the basic engine with motor block period. Then you could select from the list of options. 
1.Smoke unit 
2.Sound card with speaker 
3.Choose only one of the following: 
A. Track power with DC control ready 
B. Track power with DCC control ready 
C. Battery power without batteries or RC 

They could team up with other suppliers and offer ready to install modules for: 

6.Battery power package includes (Batteries and Charger) 
7. RC controll 
8. DCC control 

GET the Point. Just like buying a new car. Add only the items you want. 

The manufacturers could actually reduce the price of their units and make them easier to build. Just set up the wiring harness to accept plug in units. By forcing their design engineers to make the accessories modular they will actually improve the quality of their engines and make them a lot more trouble free. Nobody has to buy anything they don't want. Much better than being forced to purchase an engine the first thing you do is tear parts out and throw then away. Then the after market people can jump in and make plug/play units for any engine that will not take a degree in electrical engineering to install. 

Just my out of the box thinking about how to improve on what the industry currently has to offer their customers. 

John


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

John 

While I do like the concept you elaborated and wish for it, it does have one big drawback. The vast majority of large scale buyers do not want to build or install anything - this is the home of the take it from the box and run it crowd. 

A manufacturer who can offer a product complete and ready to run has a big advantage. Most suppliers would rather appeal to the majority (at the lowest price point) and let the real afficionados fend for themselves. 

Regards ... Doug


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I'm perfectly happy to be part of the "take it out of the box and run it," me and my "crowd." I really don't enjoy buying something, then taking it apart to make it work right. I spent hours yesterday trying to make an Aristo circuit board do what it was supposed to do. I spent hours breaking down a Bachmann Annie so I could install an rc receiver. I managed both, but I could have spent that time making the track better, or detailing something to make it what I want, or doing something creative, instead of rooting around a locomotive trying to make something basic work. So yes, put me in the "take it out of the box and run it crowd." 

Taking it out of the box and running it doesn't preclude making whatever changes you like later. 

It seems to me Aristo is on the right track, but their quality control is too sloppy to implement it. Ideally you could buy an aristo engine and without doing any wiring changes run it on track or batteries, with RC units and sound (via QSI) that just plug and play. Smoke switches on and off. In practice they aren't wired right from the factory. But that doesn't mean the idea is bad. I'd love to be able to take my track-powered locos and run them on a battery powered layout. I'm sure I could make that possible if I spent hours disassembling and reassembling and cursing while life, joyous sunny life, is passing by outside the workshop and the "take it out of the box and run it crowd" are out having fun. 

As to batteries, I suspect they'll keep improving, though change is slow compared to, say, microprocessors. I just don't like them. I play the bass semi-professionally, and lots of bass guitars have built in onboard preamps that run on one or two 9 volt batteries. Some people like them, but I don't. I have enough to worry about going to a gig--do I have a cable? tuner? do I know the songs? I don't want to add "how old is that battery? Do I have a spare? did I bring the little screwdriver to take the battery cover off? IS there a 7/11 on the way to the gig where i can buy a battery?" No thanks. Running trains on battery aren't you always running into the fact that batteries lose their capacity to hold a charge? And wondering if you should swap those out for a fresh set? Or is it a problem with the charger? 
But I can see the attraction of battery powered trains and I suspect someday technology will improve to where it's irresistable


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

If it isn't stamped on already, I always write the date of purchase on my NiCad battery packs. This year I had to retire one pack -- it was from 1998 (at twenty bucks, I am not disappointed). A pack marked 2003, for example, is still going strong. 

So I'm perplexed as to where the notion of packs losing capacity originates -- perhaps among the RC racing crowd, where they ram charge and deplete them twenty times a day? 

Under what I would consider normal train running, they seem to just keep going and going.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm actually thinking of the batteries in my cordless drill, which are great at first but deteriorate under use, the more intensive the use the faster the deterioration


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, again, cordless tools (and A/C power tools for that matter) have a stressful job to do under abusive conditions -- I have plenty. I think it's an inaccurate parrallel to garden trains. 

I guess, when you ask "on battery aren't you always running into the fact that batteries lose their capacity to hold a charge? And wondering if you should swap those out for a fresh set? Or is it a problem with the charger?" my answer would be an honest "no".


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Well you would know better than me--I've never run a train under battery power. But I have watched a long train struggle up a grade on my small layout,with 22 volts on the track, and thought to myself "how long would batteries last?" 

I think I need to give it a try. Maybe convert an old LGB 4 wheeler to battery. At the least I could use it to pulla track cleaning car


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the biggest abuse cordless tools get is sitting in the drawer for months. Like mine. 

If you're using them heavily, you go through charge/discharge cycles fast.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

This is not only true of cordless drills. 

I can see how battery operation might appeal to someone just entering the hobby that has one or two trains and also to layouts with multiple operators each bringing their own trains but for individuals with multiple trains, as the quantity of items that need batteries increases the frequency of them running and recharging can be ever decreasing. 

Eventually age and lack of use/recharging catches up and often even 9 volt batteries corrode and ruin the jacks that plug into them. 

I have a perfectly good Makita drill that will be the 2nd perfectly good Makita drill that I will have thrown away because it is more cost effective for me to buy a new Craftsman drill with two batteries and a recharger than it would be for me to buy two new Makita batteries. 

We live in a throw away society and (probably like most people) I am constantly having to buy replacement batteries for something and (again probably like most people) I ignore the warnings and throw my old batteries into the trash where they end up in a landfill somewhere. 

Perhaps the one single thing I like most about track power is that it does not self-destruct if I leave a track powered locomotive sitting on a siding for a year or more. I may have to cut and replace the 9 volt battery connector in the sound unit but everything else will probably be just as it was the last time I ran it. Corroded batteries have ruined more things than I want to think about. 

Batteries and track power = two groups who will never think alike. 

It is really very simple. If battery power appeals to someone he/she should probably buy it. If track power appeals to others they should probably stay with track power. Neither group will ever convince the other to change - unless they want to be convinced to change. 

Cheers, 

Jerry 


Posted By Torby on 04/10/2008 7:07 AM
I think the biggest abuse cordless tools get is sitting in the drawer for months. Like mine. 
If you're using them heavily, you go through charge/discharge cycles fast.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Toy car enthusiasts used to use track power, if you recall slots. Nowadays, most use R/C and run them outside. Same with boats and planes. The people I know who still use track power have a background in Lionel trains or in the smaller scales like HO. Once you've done this for years, it is hard to change, at least from the folks I've talked with.


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds like I'm disagreeing for the fun of it, but... 

While the two opposing "groups" may never convince the other to change, individuals do change. I wasn't born a battery guy -- my first railway was track power, and I wanted to stay that way. However, it was precisely the arguments of individuals here on MLS (I won't name names) that led me to modify one loco and see if I like it. I was so impressed with that first experiment, there was no looking back. 

In other words, this may be a weary discussion, but it's a good one. So, pats on the back to everyone for chiming in on both sides. 

ps: SE18 has a point -- I have no background in the smaller, indoor scales.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

On the subject of background in the smaller scales ... 

Those who have been active recently in HO almost always will be DCC users unless their railroad was/is very small. I have no background in Lionel or collector trains but I always assumed the mindset in large scale to run trains endlessly in a circle with little thought to actual operation stemmed from that world. 

Most of the OVGRS members are also active in smale scales especially HO. We all use DCC for our indoor modelling. But we use battery RC outside - none of us has the slightest interest in entertaining the DCC hassles in a wet snowy cold environment. And track power is a nonstarter if real operations are the intention. 

Regards ... Doug


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2008)

can't believe y'all are still chatting this up...you coulda had your RC gear installed by now....and for a side note-don't get hung up on the drill/battery mentality...it's much different than that out here in the real Battery World! The results are worth the effort-at least for me! 

cale


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Is this thread still going????? 
I don't think we've heard from the starter of it for awhile. 
BTY 
last night my grand daughter was running her AC critter, I don't know how many times she bumped it or derailed it. if it was track power it would have cost me a number of fuses from shorting out on the rails. 
Plus my wife does not wrong about her tring to plug in a power pack at age 2.5 

just thought I'd say ,,,HEY!!!!


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty, 

When they been into outdoor railroad as long as we have they will see the light!


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## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

To answer the question on run times that was asked earlier, my Dewalt 14.4 drill that i use commercially gets about 2 hours of constant use, which kinda sucks. My LGB sumpter valley mallet runs for 6 hours, constantly on 14.4 3000 mah onboard batteries with sound. I would have run it longer but i got sunburnt and tired and ran outta beer. My batteries are over a year old and show no signs of wear. 
I'm not tryin to convert anyone, you like what you like. I was into track power when i started and i probly did some stuff wrong but i hated cleaning track. My layout is way outback and i had nowhere to keep my powerpack and it pretty much was no fun. i went to a friends house and saw a gentleman running battery and i was a follower of battery r/c happily ever after. 
Basic battery power I think is cheaper than track power to get started. But, i went all out. My locos all have onboard power and sound. I can convert them in a couple hours, but i do this on rainy days or in the winter cause i'm a wuss when it comes to being out in bad weather. But, i was doing a lil math and it still isn't that much more than if i was to buy all the rail clamps switches and wire i would need to do track power right. 
Did i mention i don't have to clean track? I hate to clean track. If you like it thats ok with me, but i hate it. i hate to clean my HO track. So much that i don't run it unless i can con someone else into doin' it! That part alone made batteries win hands down in my book. 
Different circumstances for different people. You like what you like. If you're just starting out go see what other folks are doin' and go from there. But most important throw some track down and run some trains!! 
Terry


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2008)

Hey Marty...will you go over here and answer this cats question on batt pwr for long trains? 
http://cs.trains.com/forums/2/1411789/ShowPost.aspx#1411789 
thanks 
cale


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Cale 
I tried to reply to that ,,"cats". But I've also had troubles staying login on GRYs forum 
The main page says I'm in, the 2nd forum master page says I'm in, then which ever topic I look at or try to reply it says I'm logout. I've already e-mailed with GRYs site manager and she is stumped also. 
dang pupter


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## Michael Tollett (Jan 3, 2008)

sometimes it seems that track power v. battery power is almost as divided as creation v. evolution on another forum I frequent...lol 

A friend of mine helped me convert an older Big Hauler to battery power with the TE RX/TX. I have a set of batteries on order and I'm waiting on an April 14 delivery of the batteries so I can run it, experiment with it, see how feasible it's going to be. For my operation, I would want to have all the batteries located in the steam engines tenders as I'm not crazy about having to log a battery car around behind an engine to be able to run it, even though understanding that would be the "cheaper" route. 

With that said, my front layout will always remain track powered because of the Christmas display that we run here during the holidays. An LGB F7 A/B unit with clear shell that has red/green lights that blink and flash along with the Christmas train. It runs continuous between 4-7 hours per night during the holiday season, mostly unsupervised. Until a battery system comes along that either recharges itself while running, or has a longer, MUCH longer run time, I'll stick with the track power for that setup. I'm still open to the possibility of converting my steam engines though. Once I spend some time with the Big Hauler and the batteries and see how that goes, I'll make some decisions on whether to convert the rest or not. 

Michael


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Yea, but evolution folks see more vurtue in coming from an ape than a mud pie. 
Even the sun uses onboard battery power. The earth just runs on track power.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2008)

thanks Marty!


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe when the sun goes down and it gets dark, the earth is just recharging its batteries. 

Tommy 
Rio Gracie


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

My little battery powered handcar is of course a joke but I think it highlights why there will never be a one way for all solution to the track power vs battery power question. 

Whether one chooses track power or battery power he/she is going to have to give up something. 

A light 4 wheel (4 track electrical contacts) Handcar would have the most problems running on a dirty track or through multiple switches without stopping somewhere. On the other hand it would be virtually impossible (I think) to find a way to add a battery and radio control to it. 

Additionally it would lack the pulling power to drag a battery car behind it and look pretty silly if it did so. 

If it were possible to convert it to battery power the conversion would probably cost more than the handcar. 

A battery operator would have to give up the thought of buying a handcar on his layout and a track power operator would have to accept that his track would need to meet a higher conductivity standard to run such tiny cars (but at least he/she could do it). 

There are many ways to reduce track cleaning for those who want track power. They include LGB Track Cleaning Locos, Track Cleaning Cars, Drywall Sanders, Stainless Steel Track, Nickel Plated Track, multiple feeders, keeping the track elevated and out of the dirt, grass and other contaminants/obstructions etc. etc. 

A perfect solution simply does not exist so we all make a personal decision of what we like the best. 

I seldom ever run my LGB Handcars or Fortuna Flyers but for me it is important that I can if I want to. 

There are a few cheap battery powered radio control trains for my granddaughters to run if they like plus a live steam Aristo-Mikado to satisfy the live steam urge when it occasionally arises. 

Additionally I sometimes run MTS and DCS. 

My personal choice is not to make a choice. I want to be able to run it all so I do. 

Perhaps the solution for some will be like portable TV's where we can run on batteries away from home but switch to wall power when we get home. 

Be greedy - it's the American way. 

Regards, 

Jerry


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry 
I'm not as old as you, I don't remember those days. what is a well?


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Marty, 

Wells are not as old/obsolete as you may think. We used our well (with a submersible pump) up until about 10 years ago when we finally got "city water." 

Like batteries, wells do not require a complicated distribution system (plumbing = track power wiring) and are pretty maintenance free. 

Like batteries, well water must be manually distributed to multiple locations if you want to have water at different places. 

Like batteries, if you want water to be available when you want it without any delay you have to anticipate the need and get it ready in advance. 

Then again, if you have a bunch of visitors it can be convenient to have a cooler full of bottled water available for anyone that wants it but when everyone goes home you may prefer the convenience of water out of the tap. 

Track power is like indoor plumbing. It takes more effort to get it everywhere you want it and occasionally it may require a bit of maintenance (I have a dripping faucet in the master bathroom at the moment and I also have a toilet that has a tendency to leak). 

When the faucet is dripping I might wish that I did not have the hassle of indoor plumbing but once the leak is fixed and everything is working I am glad that I don't need a well. 

Some folks like the convenience of bottled water and some folks prefer tap water. Both are right and neither is wrong. 

A well can be a work of art. There apparently are 5 wells on the property here. So far I've found 3 and one was so well crafted that I admire the workmanship of whoever built it many years ago. I can appreciate something without having a personal desire to have and use it. 

Cheers, 

Jerry 


P.S. I might add that Battery Power is somewhat like Live Steam. Unless one enjoys chasing their trains around the tracks and hoping they do not derail, switching to battery power also involves buying and installing radio controls (not just installing batteries and converting track contacts to battery contacts) that involve additional complications for installation and operation. 

Track power gives the option of total instantaneous and precise control without worrying about the transmitter being out of range of the receiver or having shut itself down to save the precious batteries (resulting in runaway trains). If one enjoys the "benefit" of radio control it too is an option for track powered layouts without the limitation of trying to squeeze the receiver into a locomotive, tender or rolling stock. 

I would never attempt to talk anyone out of switching to battery power if they were so inclined. I've never even heard of a "Track Power Mafia" but I have heard of a "Battery Power Mafia." /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue2.gif 

Sometimes we just have to poke a little fun at each other but it really is just in jest on my part. I don't take anything serious anymore.  

Posted By NTCGRR on 04/12/2008 10:41 AM 
Jerry 
I'm not as old as you, I don't remember those days. what is a well?


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2008)

Jerry McColgan, 

thank you. after 7 pages of more or less unfounded statements this here: Both are right and neither is wrong.
was really needed. 
there are so many different ways, to get fun from trains, that it would be highly improbable, that one of the systems covers it all. 

korm 
.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Now who would go and say a thing like that????


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2008)

Now who would go and say a thing like that????

well, that is, how many posts above seem to my imperfect understanding of english.


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## Andrew H (Apr 13, 2008)

Well, I've had track power for about 5 years and r/c for about 2. I've only got my Mack on r/c and as yet to do my 10 wheeler. 
When the line was only a relatively small loop, track power was okay. I did use the rail cleaning time as MOW time. So that all fitted in nicely as I removed debris, new pant growth, dog poo ( I still don't know how my dogs used to be so accurate aimers-but yep right between the rails) and giving the rails a scrub into the bargain. 

I'd set the train up and it'd run continuously for about 2.5 hours while I did the rest of gardening. 
I really thought about what Tony W' says about battery amp/hours. Did I really want to run one loco for over 2.5 hours straight?? My answer was no. I'll have others as time goes by so I can put on back to the roundhouse and of course many of the affordable branded loco's don't like running that long anyway. 

So I couldn't see any problems for my railway going to r/c. I also make my own turnouts and it's way easier to make them sans electrical isolation..just like the prototype shortlines. I was becoming fed up with having to MOW the joiners,wires etc as well.. 

Not only that, but if your locos are r/c you don't have to worry about visiting other lines and their power set up.. just rail 'em up and go !


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2008)

Just like the Pink Bunny,.,,,,this thread is Still Going! A testament to Battery Power


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I replied because I agree with what you said. I can't spell. And you can't argue with what you said. it was a joke. 

Posted By kormsen on 04/12/2008 8:58 PM
Now who would go and say a thing like that????

well, that is, how many posts above seem to my imperfect understanding of english.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2008)

it was a joke. 
sorry, i simply didn't catch it.


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

An awful lot of discussion here, very long string. Just remember that Battery R/C or track power is not a contest. They are an option. Options are good. The more we have the better served all of us are.


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