# Winans Camelback 4-6-0 at B&ORR



## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

[No message]


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Rob

What you're building is a "Hayes 10-Wheeler" designed by Samuel J. Hayes, Master of Machinery (1851-1856) B&O Railroad, because Ross Winans never built anything but 0-8-0 Camels.

If you use the Google search engine and select the Books option on the More menu, then enter a search value "winans camel engine" (with or without the quotes) you'll find a good deal of information. The following are some examples.

THE EARLY MOTIVE POWER OF THE BALTIMORE and OHIO RAILROAD
J. Snowden Bell
c. 1912[/b]


The Journal of the Franklin Institute Vol LXXVI
Vol. CVI Nos. 631-636
Vol LXXVI July-December 1878
Joseph Snowden Bell
The "Camel" Engine of Ross Winans
ppg 246-250[/b]


Railroad age gazzette Vol. 45 Issues 10-22
Sloping Fireboxes on Locomotives
C. M. Caruthers
Vol. 45 - No. 14 (Sept. 4, 1908) ppg 860-864[/b]


The Railway age and northwestern railroader, Volume 26
Communications
About The Camelbacks
J. Snowden Bell, Letter, pg 588
("Hayes 10-Wheeler" S. J. Hayes Master of Machinery B&O Railroad)
Vol. 26 Aug. 19, 1898 No. 7[/b]


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I switched computers. my digital files are on the old one and my scanner won't work with this one. So this is what I found online - hope there's enough there to begin work... There are 2 left. #173 is at the national transportation museum
http://www.railarchive.net/centprog/r_winans.htm 
http://home.comcast.net/~phstakem/rr/winans/WINANS.htm 
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Winans Camel/Winans171-1.jpg 
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Winans Camel/WinansCamelPluto.jpg 
http://www.eduborail.org/NPS-7/Image-3-NPS-7.aspx 
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WgFUv6ShVco/R...NjIISwpMMU/s800/BOMuseum-Tour-NewShop-217.jpg 
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WgFUv6ShVco/R...BfAjdGuc/s800/BOMuseum-Tour-NewShop-217-S.jpg 
http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/15900/15929/earlyloco_15929_lg.gif 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Centipede_4-8-0.jpg 
http://www.the-ashpit.com/mik/WINANS5.JPG 
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cameldrawing.jpg 
http://www.sdrm.org/faqs/boilers/fig4a.jpg 
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp52/steamnut1917/civil war/bo-2002-23.jpg 
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp52/steamnut1917/civil war/bo-2002-24.jpg 
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp52/steamnut1917/civil war/bo-2002-25.jpg 
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/HayesCamel.jpg 
http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1007/bo173.jpg 
http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0001/nmot005.jpg 
http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1007/bo217.jpg 
http://www.trainweb.org/rradventures/images/1999-10-16_BO_Museum/abc.jpg 
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures\44342\01242010 045.jpg 
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,2496569


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks Steve & Mik, 
This information is really useful - thought I had _Googled_ everything, but here in the UK (www.google.co.uk) I can't always find all the US based info.
Seems some information sources I had already accessed are also confused as to what Ross Winan was responsible for.... so it looks like I am building a hybrid

10 wheeler (4-6-0) / Winan's camelback - Oh well !


Thanks again for your great help!
Rob


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Hello again Steve

Seems I wasn't too stupid after all as this confusion has been going on for some time as I discovered reading the following....


A PRACTICAL TREATISE ON LOCOMOTIVE BOILER AND ENGINE DESIGN, CONSTRUCTION, AND OPERATION BY LLEWELLYN V. LUDY, M.E.
PROFESSOR OF EXPERIMENTAL ENGINEERING, PURDUE UNIVERSITY, AMERICAN SOCIETY OF MECHANICAL ENGINEERS
ILLUSTRATED AMERICAN TECHNICAL SOCIETY CHICAGO 1920

*"This locomotive is oftentimes improperly called the Camel-Back or Winans engine because of its close resemblance to the Winans. The name Camel-Back, as given to the Winans engine and also to the Hayes 10-Wheeler.... *"

Phew, I feel much better now









Regards
Rob


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Suggestion. you might try contacting the St Louis Museum, since you said Baltimore was slow in responding. Sometimes offering a donation in return for information helps, too. 
Museum of Transportation 
St. Louis County Parks and Recreation 
3015 Barrett Station Road 
St. Louis, MO 63122 
314-615-8MOT (8668) 

Transport Museum Association 
2967 Barrett Station Road 
St. Louis, MO 63122 
314-965-6885 
[email protected] 

And as far as terminology, to my experience, these types of beasts are usually called 'camels' to separate them from the later mid cab versions they share few design features with.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By robsmorgan on 18 Oct 2011 04:25 AM 
Thanks Steve & Mik, 
This information is really useful - thought I had _Googled_ everything, but here in the UK (www.google.co.uk) I can't always find all the US based info.

Just use "regular" google: http://www.google.com/
actually, I have always assumed there is just one google..why does there need to be a "UK google" site when "regular" google already indexes the whole world? or so I assume..I could see different googles for different languages, maybe an "India Google" would make sense..but UK google? why?

Scot


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 19 Oct 2011 01:48 PM 
Posted By robsmorgan on 18 Oct 2011 04:25 AM 
Thanks Steve & Mik, 
This information is really useful - thought I had _Googled_ everything, but here in the UK (www.google.co.uk) I can't always find all the US based info.

Just use "regular" google: http://www.google.com/
actually, I have always assumed there is just one google..why does there need to be a "UK google" site when "regular" google already indexes the whole world? or so I assume..I could see different googles for different languages, maybe an "India Google" would make sense..but UK google? why?

Scot
Scot

I would think it mainly a matter of "business", you might Google it for an answer.


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks again Mik, I did suggest a donation of $20 for a couple of pics of the cab..... still not a word









Anyway, thanks to your links, I found enough images to settle what I am doing..... tonight (8pm here) I am moving the piston gear up to around 15deg from horizontal - and have fitted sliding windows in the cab.

Hi Scot, re: the Google address- I used to be able to use .com, but it always defaults to .co.uk these days... as you say it doesn't make sense but does appear to put some non UK results a long way down the list








even more strange as I can go to Amazon or ebay .com without any difficulty (they also have .co.uk addresses here)



Best wishes

Rob


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Rob,

In my previous reply, if you click the first link (i.e. THE EARLY MOTIVE POWER OF THE BALTIMORE and OHIO RAILROAD, J. Snowden Bell; c. 1912[/b]) does the Internet Archive page display? If it does, this book has the most extensive description and explanation regarding the B&O RR's early locomotives that I've come across. Especially the chapters on the B&O's 0-8-0 and 4-6-0's (i.e. Chapters 4 & 6 respectively). There are also some drawing of the Winans "camel-back" locomotives that you should find interesting.

Additionally, if the Internet Archive page with the above book does display. Then on the left side in the "View The Book" box the second option listed is PDF (28.4M). If you click that link you should be able to download and display a copy on your local computer, once there you should be able to use the Adobe Reader to save a copy of it to your local system. If you find that the PDF option isn't available, the you should still have the "Read Online" option available.


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks again Steve, yes I had found the pages you mention and they were extremely helpful, but I still needed in-cab info and guess what.....yesterday (night here) I received a couple of great photos from Dave, Chief Curator at the B & O RR so I must apologize for doubting their interest.... no excuse for not getting it all right now - but my project will only ever produce a look-a-like 'camel'









Best wishes
Rob


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll be very interested in seeing your progress. Please post updates with pictures if you can. 

Including the stuff the museum sent. I've idly thought about a camel, but haven't done much thinking about how.


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Surely will Mik, if I can get my pictures posted.... but the 60 KB limit is very restricting and files appear to be reduced again to under 16KB automatically








As a matter of courtesy I am awaiting the B&ORR museum curator's permission to post the pics they have supplied......


I will post an illustrated thread on www.gscalecentral.co.uk in the near future if that's OK - will let you know the link a.s.a.p.

Best wishes
Rob


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Returning to her spot with fresh paint. It appears 217 is now 305 again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=272MSlvUIpI

Not sure if it's original to those locos (It's similar to Markoff's Eureka which carries a Baldwin scheme). But she's sure purdy all tarted up like that.


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

What I found interesting is that the front two axles are blind, no wonder they were being so careful with her. And yes I would bet that the colors are correct.


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Mik, Here's another link worth looking at for close-up detail.... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSpNdnPVs5s&feature=related 

Rob


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## cjwalas (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's a shot of a painting based on a color lithograph of the period, which shows the color. You should be aware that the only true Hayes ten-wheeler surviving is the one in St. Louis. The B&O is a replica that was built for the Century of progress Exposition, although they don't like to admit it.


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks for the picture - the 'lithograph' for this is in the book previously mentioned by Mik - problem now is that I am scratch building a replica of a replica







just as well I've settled for electric / radio control rather than coal fired steam









Regards
Rob 


p.s. how do you post pics on this site - I note that your Hayes 10 wheeler is 190Kb - when I try to upload, anything slightly over 60Kb is rejected and even then is reduced to under 16Kb in the message.


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## cjwalas (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By robsmorgan on 21 Oct 2011 01:05 PM 

p.s. how do you post pics on this site - I note that your Hayes 10 wheeler is 190Kb - when I try to upload, anything slightly over 60Kb is rejected and even then is reduced to under 16Kb in the message. 


Honestly, I have no idea how the system here works. It took me three tries to get the photo to load in the post and I'm still not sure how I did it? 
Chris


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Rob

You are using the "Attachments" feature located at the bottom of the "Add Reply" HTML editor page.

Since you are a 1st Class MLS member you have the advantage of the enhanced toolbar located just above the message content area of the editor. As such, there are two buttons available on the toolbar that are useful in including images within your posted replies, i.e. Insert Image







and the Image Gallery







buttons. Additionally you can find information on the use of these features on the MLS FAQ page (see direct link below).

MLS Menu-bar >> Resources menu >> FAQ page[/b]


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks Chris & Steve for your responses..... 
I will follow your guidance in the morning (UK time) and post an up to date / where I'm at with the Camelback.... a few pictures with any luck! 

Rob


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a U-tube vid that may interest U camelback fans, its kind of long, but interesting enough anyway...
Paul R...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=272MSlvUIpI


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

This is the state of play at the moment guys - initially I am trying to convert an old Bachmann 4-6-0 / 10 wheeler to look reasonably similar to the Hayes 'Camelback' at the B&O RR museum.....


points to note (a) I have sawn away the rear boiler and carved a softwood blank to creat the smooth sloping firebox. (b) I have cut the cylinder mount to allow them to be raised to approx 15 deg from horizontal.

(c) The cab is gradually taking shape over the boiler by trial and error. (d) the smoke stack and headlamp are temporary pieces until I craft/turn more accurate replicas.

Once I get everything looking reasonably correct I will attend to the final details like rivets..... but I know this will never be an exhibition piece







Hopefully it will be running under Railboss RC very soon !

Regards
Rob 

p.s. the B&O museum kindly supplied useful photos of the cab interior - although it is hard to see, I have started to replicate the fittings.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

That's cool!A GREAT start!

Gonna shorten the smokebox, too? Those Master Mechanic spark arrestors weren't in vogue until after the camels were retired.


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey, don't sell your self short, you are doing a wonderful job so far, it really does look good.


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks for the great support comments!
This pic might be of interest... the work on the cab interior is progressing and I have sourced some better windows (I made the earlier ones from scored CD covers)

And yes Mik - in fact I've cut the smokebox front off since I took this photo and you reminded me







it's getting darker here so shed-work needed doing immediately!










Before you ask, I have a lot of work to do on the tender, but thats another story!

Regards
Rob


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm liking this project more and more with each pic... and thinking you ought sell the cab kits... you might get 10 or 15 buyers... or better stated, about half the guys who want an 1860s B&O specific engine but are too lazy to get started


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Rob

Here are a couple of articles, which I excerpted from the American Engineer, Car Builder, & Railroad Journal - Vol. 72 1898. The information may be redundant to what you already have, but I figure better too much than not enough, feel free to download a copy of each if you like.









B&O Winans "Camel" PDF (627KB)[/b]

B&O Hayes Ten-Wheeler PDF (686KB)[/b]


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Posted By Mik on 22 Oct 2011 08:58 AM 
That's cool!A GREAT start!

Gonna shorten the smokebox, too? Those Master Mechanic spark arrestors weren't in vogue until after the camels were retired.



Well Mik, you're keeping me on my toes







next I'll need to shorten the front truck etcetera.... no peace for the wicked
















also thought you might like the gauge made from a plumbing olive (pipe seal)










Will update again when I have something worth posting

Rob


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Time is going by and I reckon it's time I updated this page with a where-I'm-at[/i] recent picture..... Although I am still working on the tender and stowing the r/c & sound electronics. 












I have installed a smoke generator which is pulsed by a double fan unit (hidden in the headlamp) driven by the standard Bachmann chuff cam...... will post Youtube footage when the weather improves here !!


Thanks for looking

Rob


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Rob; 

Fantastic! Thanks for sharing. 

Best wishes, 
David Meashey


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Rob,

I'll second what Dave said, you have indeed done a fantastic job with your B&O locomotive, well done and thanks for sharing what you've accomplished thus far.


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Thank you for your compliments Dave & Steve! - forgot to post this pic of the secondhand Big Hauler[/i] I 'scratched' the Camel from....










Sorry about the picture quality but I had trouble grabbing the pic from ebay so this is a pic from the monitor.


Regards
Rob


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Since Rob already gave me a hard time elsewhere for not finding this until 2 days ago (not that I didn't give him a hard time first for confusing terms, lol! - He seems to have caught on that these things are CAMELS ) I probably need to post the link here too. 
Almost 200 restoration pix of B&O Hayes Camel #305 
http://ogsphotography.smugmug.com/BORRM/Camel-Resatoration/17376049_PW2GPF/4/1320766811_fBBhqbJ#!i=1320730764&k=hHkMzVv 

For those who still aren't sure what the difference is, I found this info posted by a fellow named Bommer that 'splains a few things... maybe - or maybe he's fulla beans, but it sounds pretty good: 
"B&O 305 at the museum in Baltimore is named a "camel." This was because the engineer essentially sat on top of the boiler, as though riding on a camel. 
The term "camel back" refers instead to the hump-like projection the cab makes when straddeling the middle of a boiler. Here, the engineer sits on one side of the loco. " 
"The old B&O camels were built with the cab on top of the boiler primarily to give the engineer the best possible view of the track ahead. That was far more important than one might think, given the kind of rail and roadbed back then. Also no signals - yet.


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## Paulus (May 31, 2008)

Now that's something else! What a great looking engine. Nice job!


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Very cool and unique!


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## general1861 (Jan 22, 2010)

Hi Rob, really cool Loco and great job!...I was at the B&O 2 yrs ago and took many photos of everyhting there. If you need a pic for your next bash let me know and i will see if I have it. They have a car there that is used for gauging tunnels and ROW. Sometime I would liketo model it. It would be a really cool project.......Travis


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Rob, 

Very nice job. Another good thing to do to a Bachmann 4-6-0! 

They have a car there that is used for gauging tunnels and ROW. Sometime I would liketo model it. 
Travis, 

Alan at G.A.L. (www.thegalline.com) has a styrene kit for that car - he seems to have taken it off his website, but you can email him for pics.


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks again guys,

your comments are very encouraging - as was the information provided here in the first place
















.... I live along way from the B&O RR museum (3000+ miles) but I hope to get there to see the prototype before too much longer. 



There are some questions I can't answer Travis (general 1861) - you may have a pic of the inside of the Camel tender - I can see there is a partition.... is the back half a water tank with an inspection cover.... IF you know I'd be grateful to hear.

Thanks again

Rob


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Rob.. you can't download the stupid things without buying them, but.... 
http://ogsphotography.smugmug.com/BORRM/Camel-Resatoration/17376049_PW2GPF/4/1320766811_fBBhqbJ#!i=1320749636&k=r2RK5jW&lb=1&s=X3 
http://ogsphotography.smugmug.com/BORRM/Camel-Resatoration/17376049_PW2GPF/4/1320766811_fBBhqbJ#!i=1320795304&k=XPdJtxQ&lb=1&s=X3 
http://ogsphotography.smugmug.com/BORRM/Camel-Resatoration/17376049_PW2GPF/4/1320766811_fBBhqbJ#!i=1333213654&k=rdqQZqC&lb=1&s=X3 

back half is water. and there is a square hatch.
http://ogsphotography.smugmug.com/BORRM/Camel-Resatoration/17376049_PW2GPF/4/1320766811_fBBhqbJ#!i=1320972666&k=RBSfLDc&lb=1&s=X3


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks (again) for this information Mik 
it was seeing images from this source (you pointed me to previously) which put the doubt into my head, I have emailed Dave S at the B&O RR to check if my guess was correct before putting _glue to plastic_ and then had the offer above which might just settle how I finish the tender off.


Rob


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Hope this isn't getting to be over the top, but here are two pics of the Camel now that I've updated the tender design (see earlier comments) - It's a damp day here in the UK but bright enough to get the first couple of outdoor shots.... won't be long before she's 'steaming'......





















Thanks for your interest

Rob


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Rob

How in the dickens can pictures of your modeling ever be over-the-top? Looking really good, thanks for posting the pictures.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Loverly bit o' work!!


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

I know it would have taken you guys less time to build a full size replica..... sorry for the wait, but the weather here hasn't been too good for filming the (almost) final product.... well that's partly true anyway!

I have at last posted footage of my HAYES Camel on _YouTube_.... hope you enjoy it!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44JPU_pViYg&feature=plcp


Thanks for all your interest & support - also credited at the end of the film! 



Regards
Rob


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Rob

Good things are always worth waiting for, and your efforts toward building a fine model were rewarded with just that, very well done.









That video is another fine production also, again very well done.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Cool! That turned out very nicely. The railroad's great, too. 

Later, 

K


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks friends at My Largescale for the ongoing support and source of good information










I only wish I had cracked the smoke generator system properly.... I used the same DIY kit as shown in another of my YouTube films (Steam into a Bachmann Annie - link below) but needed to hide the twin blower fans in the back of the Camel's headlamp, blowing down a pair of tubes and through towards the Hunter smoke unit.... I reckon I might have damaged the motor bearings and need to replace it.... must have pulsed smoke one way or the other.


link:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZPjva_ugok&feature=plcp 


Thanks again

Rob


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Great video Rob!







In to your video about 6:00, reminds me of Creede Tank on the Cumbres and Toltec. Nice railroad.


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