# LiO Battery and Charger Start Again



## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

HI

I primarily run track power but wanted to be able to run at Marty's and other battery powered get togethers. I have 2 Aristo locos with MU plugs,(FA1 and C-16) so I simply bought the Aristo trailing stock car with the TE board that plugs into the loco. And perhaps some day start converting select locos from my fleet to battery as well. 

Then I needed batteries and charger. I went to All-battery . com, based on some recommendations and bought two batteries and a charger.

The batteries were all 14.8V. One was 2200 MAh and one 4400 MAh. (Li-Ion 18650 pack) They were the Tenergy brand LIO

The Charger was a Tenergy smart charger, model 01211.

Bought them August 2011. 

All went well for about a year (yeah length of the warranty....)

Then the 2200 MAh battery, when plugged into the charger, would show red (charging) for one second then go to green (charged). It was not taking a charge. No obvious broken wires or the like. Now down to one battery. The 4400 MAh works fine, used it and it takes a charge fine. Recently, however, the charger simply stopped working. Plug it in and no light comes on like it used to. Took it apart, there is a small fuse on the board, it is not blown.

So, welcome advice on next step. Just get another charger, if so what type? Spend more money on the batteries and charger? Look for longer warranties? Burn incense to the battery gods?

Thanks

Jerry

EDIT: And Oh Yes, I am going to ECLSTS on Friday, so there is one opportunity to get some items, Thanks!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Jerry, it could be the PC protection board on the battery that's giving you fits. My first thought would be to replace that and see if that makes a difference. (They're about $9, I believe.) If it does, you're in good shape. If it doesn't, you'll at least have it for when you accidentally short out a battery and fry the PC board. (Not that I've ever done that...) It may be you've got a bad cell, and that's kicking things out as well.

Can't help on the battery charger, but I ordered a battery a few weeks ago from All Battery, and they had the 14.8v charger for $12! At that price, they're almost disposable. (I know, I'm not being environmentally friendly...) 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Track power? 

Seriously, can you measure the voltage on each individual cell? 

It sounds more like the packs were fine and the charger was getting goofy... and then died. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Depends, Greg. The charger (presuming it's the similar to mine, which if it's the ones now selling for $12, it is) has circuitry that works with the PC board on the battery to determine the battery's charge state. If the pack is discharged below what it deems safe, it will not charge it. If it's charged above a certain point (not overcharged, but not discharged "enough" to where the charger thinks it's full) it likewise will not charge the pack. Because the charger's behavior is dependent on an accurate reading from the PC board, that's the first place I'd look. That and to check the cells to make sure you don't have a bad one. 

Jerry, on the 4400mAh pack, try running it for a bit before plugging it back into the charger. I've got one charger that--if the battery is fully charged--the light will stay green. On the other one, it goes out. It would have been nice if the instructions had mentioned that. The chargers won't charge a fully-charged battery, and that _may_ be what's going on with that one. 

Later, 

K


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Some of these wannabe “Smart Chargers” are not really that smart and are nothing more than regulated power supplies with voltage sensing circuits.

These chargers do NOT interact with the batteries PCB/PCM. They simply obtain the OCV (open circuit voltage) to determine the SOC (state of charge) and charge or not at rated current until the battery reach’s the voltage threshold for the cell count in play and that’s about it. As a separate function the batteries onboard PCB/PCM is responsible for dropping cell(s) if the over-under voltage threshold is reached.

As I alluded to above many of these low-end chargers aren’t all that as they fail to completely charge the battery, omitting the CV or constant voltage saturation charge step. I was unable to ascertain if the charger Jerry mentioned (although I did read the specifications) is in fact is really a “Smart Charger”.

If it were me I’d check the batteries voltage (should be no less than 12V) and subsequently if need be each cell to determine the battery or more specifically the cell(s) condition. It’s VERY common for cells to fail IME.

All that said if I read correctly the charger should illuminate ‘Green” when fully charged or when a battery is not connected and or open circuit. It sounds like the charger is defective to me.

Michael


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Thanks Kevin, Greg and Mike:

I plan to read the cell voltage on the "failed" battery but have to do some surgery to get to the leads. 
The 2200 MAh had failed to charge, while the 4400 kept charging which is what led me to believe the 2200 had a problem. THen the charger started acting up. And yes Michael, it is supposed to show red for charging and green for charged. 

And as Kevin pointed out, there is a $12 and a $19 "smart" charger available, so I might just get one and see what it does to the good and bad battery packs

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, I think you are mistaken Kevin... while this kind of communication between battery pack and charger IS possible, it is usually in laptops and more expensive hardware. 

It also cannot work with arbitrary chargers/packs, there is no "universal language" to communicate individual battery state. (I know how this stuff actually works, I believe TI was the first company to do this in an IC) 

Yes of course the pcb with the packs will not let too low a voltage or too high a voltage... that is very common, basically people have to do this to avoid being sued. 

My point is 2 packs bad or one charger bad? 

Checking the voltage on the pack, which I suggested already is a good place to start. 

I agree (as usual) with what Michael stated. 

Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Jerry

The simple fact that the charger does not illuminate the GREEN led when it’s open circuit or not connected to a battery suggests its suspect IMO. 

Why not spend a few more bucks and get a truly Smart Charger that will service multiple battery technologies?

Michael


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, I honestly don't know what the level of "communication" there is; I just know how my charger behaves with batteries in different states of charge; that's what I related. Too low voltage, it won't charge. Too much voltage, it won't charge. Between those two points, it'll charge. Something goes haywire during charging, either the charger or the PCB will shut things down. Something goes screwy with the battery during operation, the PCB takes the bullet and you get to discect the pack to troubleshoot and replace the PC board or the battery. 

Jerry, if the LED doesn't light up when the charger is plugged into the wall, but with no battery attached, then I'd agree with Michael and Greg that it's time to spend another $12. If it lights up green when plugged into the wall, but goes out (maybe flickers a bit) when plugged into the battery, then it could be the charger, the PC board, or a bad cell. 

Later, 

K


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I would just like to comment that I have purchased many All-Battery.com 14.8V Li-Ion battery packs and chargers (Tenergy) for both my own use and for customers. I also recommend them to all of my customers. This is the first problem of any kind I have ever heard of with these products. Hopefully your replacements will give better service.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The statement I believe in error is highlighted. the charger "reads" the battery voltage and current... it does not "work with" the PC board, it has no "clue" a board is there... there ARE indeed systems that communicate with these boards, as I stated it is common in laptop battery packs. This is what I take exception to and is most likely incorrect... while technically not impossible, it's highly unlikely this pack and charger have that technology, but the technology exists. And, honestly, I DO know. Greg Posted By East Broad Top on 20 Mar 2013 03:56 PM 
Depends, Greg. The charger (presuming it's the similar to mine, which if it's the ones now selling for $12, it is) has circuitry that works with the PC board on the battery to determine the battery's charge state. If the pack is discharged below what it deems safe, it will not charge it. If it's charged above a certain point (not overcharged, but not discharged "enough" to where the charger thinks it's full) it likewise will not charge the pack. Because the charger's behavior is dependent on an accurate reading from the PC board, that's the first place I'd look. That and to check the cells to make sure you don't have a bad one. 

Jerry, on the 4400mAh pack, try running it for a bit before plugging it back into the charger. I've got one charger that--if the battery is fully charged--the light will stay green. On the other one, it goes out. It would have been nice if the instructions had mentioned that. The chargers won't charge a fully-charged battery, and that _may_ be what's going on with that one. 

Later, 

K


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, you're reading FAR too much into what I write. The PC board is the interface between the cells in the pack and the charger. So when I write that the charger "works with" the PC board, that means the charger reads what it's sensing coming from the pack via the PC board since it is the gatekeeper, and acts accordingly. Nothing more. 

Thanks for the explanation as to the varying levels of communication that may exist in this relationship. One would hope that on a $200 charger, there's something that doesn't exist on a $20 one to justify the price, lest someone is being sold a bill of goods. Whether or not the advantages of a high-end charger are worth it for _our_ purposes has yet to be clearly demonstrated to me. Most folks I know use the $20 chargers and have been very happy with them for the 4 - 5 years the technology has been in widespread use. They're certainly good enough for me. Four years after I switched from NiMH, I'm still getting 3 to 4-hour run times out of a 2200mAh pack. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

"the charger reads what it's sensing coming from the pack via the PC board " 

I still feel this is misleading/wrong ... people reading this still get the implication the PC board is controlling the batteries and feeding "information" back to the charge 

The only "control" is that the PC board can disconnect the batteries... but this may be splitting hairs... I try really hard to be very clear about details like this...

.... smart chargers and lithium batteries have certainly been out more than 4-5 years, and in widespread use... well about 20 years since I believe Sony was the first to use them in a consumer application, cordless phone. 

I'm surprised you have not seen the advantages of a "high-end" charger.... while I have not studied batteries "only" as a separate task, I've been using rechargeables and experimenting with different charging rates, discharge rates, termination of charge characteristics for about 25 to 30 years. I don't have the number of batteries under my belt that Michael G. does, but I have about 100 rechargeables in active use at any one time... and I can tell you from how much life I can extract from them, and the financial advantages of a "high end" charger... 

But whatever works... maybe your 2200 mah pack would last twice as many years with one? Let's check back in 4 more years... (I have 30 year old nicads still working fine, from "better treatment" mostly from charging)

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

people reading this still get the implication the PC board is controlling the batteries and feeding "information" back to the charge 
The only "control" is that the PC board can disconnect the batteries... 
That's exactly right. The PC board is the interface between the cells and the charger. The "information" it's feeding back to the charger is (at a minimum) the voltage of the pack, which the charger then uses to determine if it needs to continue charging, or if it's done and needs to stop charging, or if the pack that is freshly plugged in for charging is already sufficiently charged, in which case the charger will not charge it. (or--as I understand--not charge an over-dicharged pack, but I've never had an over-dicharged pack.) If the PC board has "shut off" the pack because it reached the low-water mark, the charger somehow interacts with the PC board so that both know it's okay to charge the battery. Not sure how that works, but I don't need to so long as it _does_ work. 

smart chargers and lithium batteries have certainly been out more than 4-5 years, and in widespread use 
Perhaps I should have been clearer--I meant the 4-5 years the technology has been in widespread use in garden railroading. Obviously the technology itself has been around a lot longer than that. 

Dunno on the chargers, Greg. The "smart" chargers in the NiCad/NiMH realm made a difference because we were jam charging them in 15 minutes, which put the cells under a lot of stress. The higher-end chargers definitely made a huge difference in protecting the packs, and were definitely worth the investment. If we accept the premise that Li-Ion cells have a 3 - 5 year shelf life before they go belly-up regardless of charge cycles, then even using the cheap chargers they've given good service. (Personally, I don't necessarily buy into that premise, but ask me again in 2 years when my oldest packs turn 6...) Honestly, I don't even think I have 20 charge cycles on my oldest battery packs, and that's being VERY optimistic. I think I will have switched to a new "greatest thing" battery technology before I'd realize any benefit from using a high-end charger vs. what I have now. 

Besides, if I have to replace a few packs every now and then, I can do that with the money I'm saving from not having to buy rail clamps! (Sorry, couldn't resist that one. Someone had to get you back for your "track power" comment earlier.  ) 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, it is NOT feeding back anything!!! 

It is allowing current to flow... the CHARGER reads the voltage, and does OTHER THINGS to determine what to do, NOT the voltage only. 

"smart chargers" are NOT necessarily "high rate" chargers either. 

sigh... you are making statements that are partially true and mostly missing the whole picture... 

I give up... presenting ideas or guesses as fact.... we are at the same place again... 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, you're getting hung up on semantics. We're describing the same process. I've tried three different times to agree with you on what's going on, but to no avail. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I give up already, you win, stated already, you win, I give up.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

OK some data:

I measured the cells on the 14.8V 2200 MAh battery pack that seemed to not charge (After use, when the charger was working, attach the pack and the red (charging) light came on but immediately turned green meaning I'm done.

The 4 cells measured:

1-4.06
2-7.92
3-11.89
4-15.72

Seems normal, right? So I braved the cold and got out my Aristo FA1 and trailing battery car, put them on layout and plugged battery in. The car has a board with a red light indicating battery power. It Lit. Using TE to apply throtle, the green light came on so far so good. Train went about 3 feet and lights went out, Loco stopped.

Unplugged battery, plug in again, lights again, throttle, went about 2 ft, lights out. Clearly no punch in this battery pack

Read voltage on battery pack, still 15.72V....;

Took charger apart, only read 115VAC on board where plug wires attach, and nothing on board where leads to battery attach.

Pondering this

Jerry


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

A few possibilities based on what you posted... 

First, there's the possibility that you've got a bad cell. Without load, I've seen batteries read full voltage, then drop to zero once a load is applied. If you're measuring 15.7 volts, and all of a sudden lose 3.7 volts under load, that will drop the total voltage on the pack to 12 volts, which is typically the "cut-off" voltage that will trigger the pack to shut itself off. 

Now, in my experience, once the cut-off voltage is reached, the board shuts off the battery and will not reset until the battery is recharged. It may be that without a load, returning the voltage back to 15.7 volts internally is enough to reset the board. Can't say for certain; I've not had a bad cell in a Li-Ion pack. When you go to charge the battery, it could be that this cell is sending a false positive to the PC board telling it that it's done charging, thus with all the other cells fully charged, the charger then stops the charging process. I've seen this also with NiMH batteries when I charged them individually. 

Another possibility might be something wonky (technical term) with the current limiting circuitry. The output of the battery is supposedly limited; it could be that whatever limits it somehow is shutting it down prematurely, then resetting. 

Or, the PC board could just be shutting things down at too high of a voltage, but I'd think if it were simply doing that, it'd stay shut off until you actually charged it again. (Again, that's based on my experience with my batteries, which may or may not mirror others' experiences.) 

If you can measure the voltage under load, you can maybe get a better idea of what's going on with the output of the battery. If it's fairly stable at around 15 volts when it shuts down, I'd look to the PC board as a probable cause. If it drops precipitously when the motors and lights kick in, then it may be a bad cell. 

I'll have to check my chargers when I get home to see if reading a zero voltage on the output is abnormal or not. Doesn't sound right, but I've never measured. 

Later, 

K


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Jerry,

As Kevin noted more likely than not you dropped a cell, been there done that many a times with Li-Ion batteries. Exactly as suggested open circuit voltage is in range and once a load is introduced the battery falls on its face… The tale herein is likely the 4.06 volt battery, and your cells are slightly out of balance too; 4.06, 3.86, 3.97, 3.83. I have found many a bad cell in flight control system power supplies exactly as you describe, if it were not for a redundant battery pack and or an ESV (expanded scale voltmeter) which introduces a 1 amp load many an airplane would have been lost to this ever to common phenomenon.

I like balance chargers, these allow me to monitor the cells without any effort less plugging in the balance pigtail to the charger. A bad cell is easily distinguished from the rest as the charger will display individual battery and or multiple cells condition simultaneously while under charge or discharge! I add balance pigtails to all my batteries that aren’t so equipped, it costs about a buck and the info is priceless IMO.

I should qualify the battery application somewhat with Giant Scale aircraft as the needs for trains are diminutive comparatively and the batteries were put to task with 40% scale Aerobat behemoths. It’s common to have at least two battery packs for flight control and a third for the ignition system. Eventually it was recognized that a flight system power supply can and would see loads upwards of 25 amps momentarily on average of say 20 times during the course of an aerobatic sequence. The loads very based on the maneuver and or servo count in play. High power Digital servos can consume nearly 3 amps fully loaded, many aircraft have as many as 14 digital servos and said aircraft often weigh in at 40lbs… Early in the application of digitals and Lithium cells we learned just how severe the current draw was and the ramification of starving said digital servos was (programmable digitals would reboot others were just lazy). Without benefit of paralleling Lithium cells to increase their ampacity disastrous results were realized via voltage brownouts by many.

I learned early on a robust power distribution system was a must simply by recognizing the electrical losses and the power required to drive said servos. I/we later discovered and or confirmed with onboard recording equipment the reality or need for scalar potential to operate our big model airplanes. (Sorry for getting off track, but this was huge at the time, around 2004)

Michael


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Just measured the output of the three Li-Ion chargers I have here. All three of them measured around 16.8 volts on the charger output without anything connected to it. If yours isn't measuring anything, my guess would be that it's toast. 

Michael, those sound like some _serious_ planes there!

Later, 

K


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Thanks for the additional information, gents. Looks like a new charger in my near future, will probably get one with multiple chemistry capability (see related thread). I will hold off on new batteries until I see what the new charger does to my probably bad cell one and to my aparently properly functioning one.

Now need to make battery leads for the new Docksider...


Jerry


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Wrap Up:

I recently had delivered a box from All Battery dot com, with a new charger and new LIO 14.8 V 4400 mAh battery. Yes indeed, my old Tenergy charger had failed, and the old 14.8V 2200mAh battery had failed. Both were about 18 months since delivery. The new charger, which is the Tenergy Vantage B6s Advanced Balancing Charger + Power Supply properly charged the old LIO 14.8V 4400 mAh battery as well as the new one. Do wish the the instruction manual for the B6s was a little clearer, but is seems like a nice unit with lots of options, and can also charge my NIMH battery for the R/C and the SLA for my Phoenix sound card so it should be worth the money

Thanks for all the feedback

Jerry


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