# Forum Etiquette



## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

I was so tempted to spell etiquette wrong just to see how many people RAGGED on this post. Why are there so many antagonistic posts on the Power and Sound forums lately? I really don't understand the alienation that buyers, manufacturers, and a few readers espouse to. I watched a post of a simple circuit layout turn into a rabid feeding frenzy for no reason except perhaps to "self" stroke a few egos! It was like 5 year olds arguing, but 5 year olds get tired of their own behavior and improve after a little while ON THEIR OWN, they LEARN! When will this happen?


It's not the board's fault, it is a TOTAL lack of some members even trying to understand what others are trying to say and immediately taking offense at everything and anything. I'm not "Charmin" myself and have rubbed a few the wrong way but I can honestly say it wasn't intentional. The things I'm reading lately have been very personal and go far beyond the bounds of good etiquette. I'm not a believer in PC but antagonism for antagonism's sake? Perhaps its time to stop the nastiness and ask (require?) some to think about what they are about to post for 5 minutes before hitting the "submit" button.


I'm going to think about it for 5 minutes before I submit, will you? Please, for the forum's sake?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Are you sure it wasn't The Power and Ego Forum? 

I was like that a couple of years ago... the frontal labotomy really helped!


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

This issue of intolerance on the forum comes up about every 2-3 years or so. There are a certain number of people that seem to take offence at every little comment! Add to this the fact that no one likes to be told that they are wrong and then mix in a little knowledge and liberally douse the mixture with generous portions of ego and _voila! _instant flame war! The Power and Sound forums are especially rich grounds for this as the people involved are usually quite knowledgeable and (in some cases) have agendas or "ulterior motives" ascribed to them! A good example of this is _any posting_ having to do with the NMRA and "standards" for large scale! Other noteable issues have been DCC vs R/C vs DCS vs (insert favorite control system) or battery vs track power vs live steam etc... 
Now, don't get me wrong! I think everyone sitting around the campfire singing "Kum ba ya" is mind numbingly _BORING!!!_ There is a wealth of info here and some of the people imparting it have disagreements from time to time. I find these to be interesting _as long as it remains civil! _Now, your definition of "civility" and mine may be somewhat different. I believe we are both in agreement that personal attacks have no place on the forum and that there has been too much of that lately. Honest disagreements, however, are part and parcel of this forum! In fact, I have learned as much from the various disagreements as I have from the exclusively "helpful" threads! 
Bottom line: I agree that waiting five minutes before posting is a good suggestion but even more, I believe that "civility" should be our watch word! Disagree if you must but remember to keep it civil! The other guy's opinion is just as valid as your's (especially to him!) Personally, I was never a big fan of trolls and have no use for them. People like that show up from time to time but our Moderators are usually pretty good about keeping them in check! It might be a good thing to ask ourselves if the post we are about to send is really what we want someone reading in a week let alone ten years! Some of my rants earlier in my large scale experience have left me cringing in embarassment (in my defense I really was ODing on too many espresso drinks back then!) If I could take those posts back I would and I would like to spare others having to go through the same lesson if possible. Here endeth the sermon.


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

I posted something in a thread in the public forum yesterday and couple of folks got all bent out shape about it. I know some folks who have quit MLS and others that said they would never post anything on MLS because of the negativity they've seen in some threads. Just keep in mind that 98% of the folks on MLS are really nice and civil, so don't let a few turkeys get you down


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, calling other people names in this thread is not likely to reduce anyone's blood pressure. 

There was a simple question and someone did not want to answer it. 

After a long drag out, it was finally noticed/admitted that the person getting upset was wrong. He admitted it. 

Is it not nice to "pull this out"?, well this particular person is a manufacturer, advertiser, and self proclaimed expert. 

No one was rude to him... but he did call others names and accused them of "badgering".... 

If you set yourself up as an expert, you need to live up to your advertisement. 

Go back to that thread and see which people are asking questions, and which people are saying "you are wrong", "you are badgering me", etc. 

Sure, it can hurt your ego if people don't believe you. But, you always need to consider the fact that you might have made a mistake. 

When it's an electrical engineer, and you are telling him that 2 + 2 = 7.... well, you are going to get questions. 

Who threw a fit and erased their pictures? 

I come here to learn and also share my knowledge. I can get Kool Aid at other forums. 


Re-read the thread. 

Greg


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 08 Jul 2010 07:12 AM 
the frontal labotomy really helped! 



I'd much rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal labotomy...


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Like my Granddad used to say, 

"Everyone is crazy but me and thee, and sometimes I wonder about thee."


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Dave F on 08 Jul 2010 10:09 AM 
Posted By Totalwrecker on 08 Jul 2010 07:12 AM 
the frontal labotomy really helped! 



I'd much rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal labotomy... 
I tried that and broke out in fights.....


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Totalwrecker (John)
"I just went through a period where, I guess, I was looking to be insulted so I could respond in kind... that's not really me, I opened too many negative doors. Fortunately I was able to see that and apply some tools to fix it... but there's still damage to undo. I'm using my experience as a warning... becareful what you say and how." I really liked this one, it's why I kept a copy of it.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Amen and Amen

I agree with what all of you are saying.

If you keep track of the antagonist you might find out you can count them with the fingers of only one hand.

It saddens me deeply when I hear friends on here say they stopped posting because of the negative people.

I know of someone who will not post technical things because of the ridicule he gets.

He does not have a engineering degree he is just posting what he experiencing 

Smile faces have been missed in explanations too. Some people are aggravated by what they read they missed the smile face indicating it was a joke. "They then pounced on the poster like a cat on a piece of string. 

A lot of times it is in the wording.

Which of the following sentences would you rather hear.


" I had nothing better to do so I came over to your house." Does this mean you are on the bottom of the list of people he wants to hang out with? Or was it poor choice of words.

"I was thinking of you this morning so I thought I would come over and see what you were doing."

Think of the words you are using.

Would you want them said to you.

jj


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

One thing about using a computer is that the sayings never come out quite right as said folks can take offense to how it's posted. Some times you got to read between the lines. Later RJD


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By rmcintir on 07 Jul 2010 11:26 PM 
It's not the board's fault, it is a TOTAL lack of some members even trying to understand what others are trying to say and immediately taking offense at everything and anything.



I would suggest that many conflicts/attacks/arguments arise because someone posts a question or comment about something that is important to them personally but others have a chip on their shoulder/personal (conflicting) agenda/personal gripe about the product or manufacturer being discussed and rather than attempt to genuinely assist the poster, they use the topic as an excuse to launch their diatribe against whatever it is that the originator of the topic was asking about and to push an alternative that has nothing to do with what the person who started the topic was looking for.

It is all about courtesy and respect for fellow members. It has nothing to do with how one feels about a particular product, brand or manufacturer.

If someone dislikes or has had a bad personal experience with a product or manufacturer (or are selling a competitive product) they should show respect to and for the individual who started the topic and confine their comments to information that has been requested by the starter of the topic. If the person is happy with the brand, product and power source he is writing about and has not requested information about alternative choices it is disrespectful to bombard him with information he did not ask for and has no interest in.

Everyone is free to start all the topics they want about how much and why they dislike something or how much they prefer or want to promote alternatives. 

Some people actually seem to take personal offense when someone else chooses not to hate the same products and manufacturers they hate. That makes as much sense as a neighbor disliking me because I drive a Ford and he drives a Chevy. He would not know that I would prefer a Chevy but Fords have more leg and hip room and I fit in them better. I drive what is comfortable for me - not because I think Fords are better than Chevys. Actually I would not care if or why he hated Fords and I really would not want to hear about his Ford problems - especially if he never bothered to ask me why I buy Fords. If someone had bought a Contour I would be the first to agree that they got a piece of self-destructing junk (we had two of them) but their bad experiences (and mine) with Contours would have nothing to do with Expeditions which I fit in very nicely and really like.

The reality is that they accomplish exactly the opposite of what they are trying to do. There are several specific products within brands that may or may not reflect on quality of the rest f the products from a given manufacturer and then there are brands I will not buy (and others have privately voiced a common attitude) because of how they have been aggressively (and sometimes offensively) promoted. They don't win but MLS loses members who get fed up with it.

Jerry


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Etiquette? I thought that was forbidden


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

Forum Etiquette is a tough sell when you have so many people with there own ideals of how to do the hobby the best way. Then also you have the people that are on here for one reason only and thats to promote there favorite Manufacture and try to do a sell job with part #s and all, and then they end up getting mad when they are caught selling for a company, and not just doing a show how to thread. They also forget to mention the down falls of the product in there thread but email people privately about the problems and dont make them public so that dummies like me read the thread then buy the product and find out that i was taken. The forums are full of different people, and some people need to get a thicker skin. These are my ideals of course. I thought selling for a Manufacture was against the rules. But as we all know Rules are meant to be broken i guess. Also ive been following this forum for over 4 years and membership is way up recently so people do enjoy reading and posting here i know i do. Seems to me membership has doubled in the last couple of years because there are people here that WILL tell you the truth were others i have found like to misleed you to buying a product that they support even though they know there major issues with said product. I always know when i ask a question that i will get a straight answer wheather some people like it or not. no other forum on the web can say that.
Ive learned a lot from this forum about trains and who NOT to listen to when telling you something about the hobby because well. When your caught once thats it.
So when talking about Etiquette, it might be best to leave it at the dinner table. Once again my ideals only.

Johnn


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well said Johnn, with more people you get more opinions. 

Shad called me a "pot stirrer" a number of months ago. I said, that's not intentional, but there is definitely more controversy with more opinions. Then I brought up the fact that the membership and postings were WAY up... He's not unhappy about that! MLS used be on par with LSC and long time ago LSOL... now, based on not only the number of posts, but the pure amount of real information from people I consider experts, MLS is heads and shoulders above the rest in my opinion. 

Many people are very passionate about the hobby, and most believe fervently in the choices they have made. It's difficult when someone tells you your choice is not the best, and to be truthful, many people have not tried battery AND Aristo TE AND Aristo Revo AND DCS AND DCC for example. 

Many people (have to) rely on what they were told and learned when they made their important decisions on power / control / track type / roadbed etc. 

It's hard for some people to realize that the 10 year old data may no longer be exactly correct. This is just like dispelling the myth that rechargeable batteries need to be discharged fully before charging. There's people who will never believe this is not true. 

So, courtesy and no personal attacks is a no brainer, but differing opinions are often taken as a personal attack. There's no simple answer to this if you are after cold hard facts. 

Regards, Greg


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I once told a old lady that we were at her house because we were told we needed some more ediquette, she screamed, "Get away, I won't let you eat any of my cats!"


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

FLAME 
FLAME 
FLAME


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

He! You made Susan's day


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 08 Jul 2010 07:12 AM 
Are you sure it wasn't The Power and Ego Forum? 

I was like that a couple of years ago... the frontal labotomy really helped! 



HA HA HA Thats funny and true,I know a few that could benifit from a frontal labotomy HE HE HE


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Jul 2010 01:49 PM 
Well said Johnn, with more people you get more opinions. 

Shad called me a "pot stirrer" a number of months ago. I said, that's not intentional, but there is definitely more controversy with more opinions. Then I brought up the fact that the membership and postings were WAY up... He's not unhappy about that! MLS used be on par with LSC and long time ago LSOL... now, based on not only the number of posts, but the pure amount of real information from people I consider experts, MLS is heads and shoulders above the rest in my opinion. 

Many people are very passionate about the hobby, and most believe fervently in the choices they have made. It's difficult when someone tells you your choice is not the best, and to be truthful, many people have not tried battery AND Aristo TE AND Aristo Revo AND DCS AND DCC for example. 

Many people (have to) rely on what they were told and learned when they made their important decisions on power / control / track type / roadbed etc. 

It's hard for some people to realize that the 10 year old data may no longer be exactly correct. This is just like dispelling the myth that rechargeable batteries need to be discharged fully before charging. There's people who will never believe this is not true. 

So, courtesy and no personal attacks is a no brainer, but differing opinions are often taken as a personal attack. There's no simple answer to this if you are after cold hard facts. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Johnn on 09 Jul 2010 01:20 PM 
Forum Etiquette is a tough sell when you have so many people with there own ideals of how to do the hobby the best way. Then also you have the people that are on here for one reason only and thats to promote there favorite Manufacture and try to do a sell job with part #s and all, and then they end up getting mad when they are caught selling for a company, and not just doing a show how to thread. They also forget to mention the down falls of the product in there thread but email people privately about the problems and dont make them public so that dummies like me read the thread then buy the product and find out that i was taken. The forums are full of different people, and some people need to get a thicker skin. These are my ideals of course. I thought selling for a Manufacture was against the rules. But as we all know Rules are meant to be broken i guess. Also ive been following this forum for over 4 years and membership is way up recently so people do enjoy reading and posting here i know i do. Seems to me membership has doubled in the last couple of years because there are people here that WILL tell you the truth were others i have found like to misleed you to buying a product that they support even though they know there major issues with said product. I always know when i ask a question that i will get a straight answer wheather some people like it or not. no other forum on the web can say that.
Ive learned a lot from this forum about trains and who NOT to listen to when telling you something about the hobby because well. When your caught once thats it.
So when talking about Etiquette, it might be best to leave it at the dinner table. Once again my ideals only.

Johnn


Wow.







Way to go John.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

you have so many people with there own ideals of how to do the hobby the best way. 
Then also you have the people that are on here for one reason only and thats to promote there favorite Manufacture and try to do a sell job with part #s and all, and then they end up getting mad when they are caught selling for a company, and not just doing a show how to thread. They also forget to mention the down falls of the product in there thread but email people privately about the problems and dont make them public so that dummies like me read the thread then buy the product and find out that i was taken. 

I thought selling for a Manufacture was against the rules. But as we all know Rules are meant to be broken i guess. 

there are people here that WILL tell you the truth were others i have found like to misleed you to buying a product that they support even though they know there major issues with said product. 

Ive learned a lot from this forum about trains and who NOT to listen to when telling you something about the hobby because well. When your caught once thats it.


Some things to be considered...

1. Yes, everyone tends to have things they like to talk about. Some may like a particular brand and only buy products from that manufacturer. Others pick and choose. They buy some products from one manufacturer and other products from another manufacturer. They may also have learned from personal experience that there are some products by various manufacturers that they avoid but still elect to buy other products from that manufacturer because no one else makes a similar product with the same or similar features at a similar price.

2. There are dealers and fans of specific brands who promote those brands. Dealers become dealers because they (or their customers) favor a brand or brands. If you buy a product from a dealer you should not assume the dealer is going to tell you everything negative about it and a fan of a product is not likely to be focused on the things a product does not do but rather the things it does that he likes. The negative stuff is often shared via emails between users of a product as they attempt to work out things together that the product does not do or that they do not know how to make the product do it.

3. NO. THERE ARE NO RULES against selling for a manufacturer. Why would there be? If anything, everyone who says anything positive about a product or manufacturer is promoting that product and/or manufacturer. If this was not allowed there would be no need or purpose for any forums.

4. I doubt that anyone would intentionally mislead someone about a product. Why would they? If there were major problems with a product that was important to them they would probably not be happy with it themselves and not be very likely to speak highly of it to others.

5. Yes, it is important to find people on MLS who think as you do and to listen to them. The chances are that they have the same interests and value the same things that you do. That does not mean that others are misleading you - it just indicates that the things that are most important to you are of less importance to them.

6. The concept of "catching someone" points more to the lack of knowledge and experience and perhaps judgment on the part of someone who runs around looking for someone to blame because their new toy was broken or did not work the way they wanted it to or the manufacturer did not fix it or, or, or...

Large Scale Trains IS NOT an inexpensive hobby. Stuff breaks, stuff happens, some manufacturers don't provide the level of service that someone new might expect. Those of us who have spent a lot of time and money on this hobby have paid our dues. We have learned what works best and what works least (according to our personal expectations). We have lost a lot of our personal time and money and gone through years of frustration learning what we know. We don't owe anyone anything if we post our opinion on something and they make a personal decision to buy it. 

If we choose to post something on MLS it is for the simple reason that we like what we happen to be talking about. If we buy something we like and it breaks we return it, trash it or buy another. We don't go crying about someone having tricked us into buying it. If you buy something that makes you mad tell the manufacturer and if that does not work, bitch about it. Don't run around making false accusations about others because the long time MLSers will be laughing at you in their private emails. 

MLS has been around a LONG time. Those of us who have been here most of those years know very well who is who and why they say what they do. 

MLS is like a coffee shop. If you don't like the folks at the table you are sitting at, move to another table but don't accuse others at the table you are leaving of things that everyone else in the coffee shop knows is BS.

If a manufacturer made a really bad product MLS would be swamped by MLSers bitching about it (there have been several examples of this over the years). On the other hand if just one or two people post about how bad a particular product is because they bought a product they were not pleased with, maybe, just maybe they were unfortunate enough to have ended up with the bad apples in the lot.

One thing is pretty much a fact - the more large scale products one buys the greater the chances are that a lemon will turn up. Because this IS an expensive hobby the lemon will probably turn out to be an expensive one. I own significant lemons by Aster (yep even Aster can produce lemons), Aristo-Craft, Bachmann, LGB, Mar... heck, I'm not even going to list all the brands because it pretty much includes all major brands.

If you can't stand the heat... don't blame another customer. Those who know the facts know better. Making false accusations of fellow MLSers is not building the kind of reputation you want if you hope to build your personal credibility.

Before you can expect others to have any respect for you, you have to first show respect for others - and to accept responsibility for your own actions rather than running around blaming others when your toys break. Call it Etiquette, manners, respect or whatever you like. If you want to receive it you first have to give it to others. 
The entire post was all about the poster and what everyone else owes him. The first step of personal responsibility would have been to send a private email to anyone posting about a product he was interested in to find out if there was anything that might have been of concern to him. 


Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, there is one point in your post I think is way out of whack:

"4. I doubt that anyone would intentionally mislead someone about a product. Why would they? If there were major problems with a product that was important to them they would probably not be happy with it themselves and not be very likely to speak highly of it to others."

Really, you have to be kidding.

Remember the Pinto... where Ford determined that it was cheaper to pay the lawsuits than admit and recall all the cars that were killing people?

There's some manufacturers that, even when presented with proof for years, will continue to say: "we never have had problems with our smoke unit", or "the drivers do not slip on the axles".

Why would they intentionally mislead? Not admit problems? 


*MONEY*

There are major problems, but they can get away with denials. Cheaper to keep selling the same design rather than admit and fix. Do some research on how long it took to fix the frog on a certain wide radius switch, the fixes we have had to do as customers have been documented for YEARS... new frogs finally became available ONLY after a competitor came out with a replacement frog. Same thing for a certain #6 switch, that same competitor came out with a frog insert, and guess what? Now the original manufacturer is shipping frog inserts. 




Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I still say it is all in the way you ask the question. That is why some poeple get results and some don't.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I couldn't agree more, John. As far as I'm concerned you've summed it all up with those few succinct words. It is how you ask the question, AND how you answer the question that determines whether it is a friendly conversation or discussion, or even disagreement, or whether it turns into a heated argument.

Ed


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 08 Jul 2010 02:16 PM 
Posted By Dave F on 08 Jul 2010 10:09 AM 
Posted By Totalwrecker on 08 Jul 2010 07:12 AM 
the frontal labotomy really helped! 



I'd much rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal labotomy... 
I tried that and broke out in fights.....










The problem is when people put their bottom in front of me!


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

maybe i got a language problem, but i wonder, what this thread is about. 
while it is titled etikette, lots of postings are rather about ethics. 

as i understand it, the behaviour of manufacturers and dealers is based on good or bad ethical bases. 
but if we talk about etikette, that means, if we anoy our fellow writers/readers here, or not.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 10 Jul 2010 09:19 AM 
Jerry, there is one point in your post I think is way out of whack:

"4. I doubt that anyone would intentionally mislead someone about a product. Why would they? If there were major problems with a product that was important to them they would probably not be happy with it themselves and not be very likely to speak highly of it to others."

Really, you have to be kidding.

Greg 



Hi Greg,

I was referring to fellow MLSers and not to manufacturers. 

Regards,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Korm, I agree completely. 

I think the two get blurred. It's possible to have a polite discussion without name calling, but you can disagree. 

But disagreeing alone does not make it rude. 

Once a person on this forum said to me: "Why do you say such and such about so and so's products, it's not nice" 

I replied " was there anything I said that was not true?" 

"no" 

"do you agree with the technical details" 

"yes" 

"then why do you dispute them on the forum" 

"because they are my friends" 

....... 

So I was being rude to his friends by telling the truth, being factual. And while he agreed, and would so by private email, he would not say it publicly. 

I can understand.. 

Greg


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

The "truth" always hurts someone, but I sleep at nights having done so, and ever hear the saying "slay the messenger" Hah LOL 
Greg yer just a pot stirrer hah!! Me too! But at least we speaketh the truth!! Regal


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Bottom line is we all have a relatively large amount of time, effort, and money invested into this hobby. Time, effort, and money are 3 things that evoke passion in people. We all get passionate about what we have, and what we've learned or experienced. When what one person learns or experiences doesn't match what someone has, or vice versa, passion ensues. A little realization that one's experience with a certain technique or product isn't necessarily always the case would go a long way toward breeding a little tolerance.

No matter, I sitll enjoy these forums and visit daily. Just gotta do a little selective reading and ignore what bothers you.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By kormsen on 10 Jul 2010 10:46 AM 
maybe i got a language problem, but i wonder, what this thread is about. 
while it is titled etiquette, lots of postings are rather about ethics. 

as i understand it, the behavior of manufacturers and dealers is based on good or bad ethical bases. 
but if we talk about etiquette, that means, if we annoy our fellow writers/readers here, or not. 

You are right Kormsen.

This thread by nature of it's title should be more about how we treat each other rather than how vendors treat us.

If you find a statement that is different than your findings the question show be. " I do not understand what you are saying. Could you please give a some more information or clarify the statement?"

But instead you get..."You have no idea what you are talking about. You are a idiot. No one should listen to you "

Then the original poster comes back and points out the second poster's family tree has no branches, and his sister was a only child"

After that we lock the thread and it drift off into cyber space

It is sad because some valuable information is not posted because other members stop posting because they don't want to deal with the nastinesses. Or they are concerned with being attacked themselves 

JJ


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry Jerry, did not realize you were talking about MLS people. 

But, unfortunate the statement can still apply. There's a number of people who get "free stuff" for being an "advocate"... you can tell because they often have new stuff before anyone else. Yes, I know about beta testing, I do a lot myself. 

But I return the equipment. I've never gotten anything for free except 2 defective products, one of which I gave away, the other rotted away by itself. 

I refuse to accept anything for free so I can speak honestly and freely. (Funny though, I have been accused of "vested interests" by people who have gotten free stuff and strangely enough are big advocates of that product) 

There's another common reason for people misleading others, they want to belong to a "mutual appreciation" "club"... When LGB was in it's heyday, often speaking to a dyed-in-the-wool LGB advocate, LGB could do nothing wrong. 

One final reason: There are people who are very defensive of their decisions, even if they later think they errored. in this case money refers to money poorly spent. 

Anyway, did not want to belabor the point, but that particular item can be exactly opposite the way you put it . Note carefully, I said "CAN BE"... I am just objecting to the absolute way it was stated... 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 10 Jul 2010 10:46 AM 
maybe i got a language problem, but i wonder, what this thread is about. 
while it is titled etikette, lots of postings are rather about ethics. 

as i understand it, the behaviour of manufacturers and dealers is based on good or bad ethical bases. 
but if we talk about etikette, that means, if we anoy our fellow writers/readers here, or not. 

Kormy, Whats shakin man, long time no hear............................


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Is it bad etiquette for me to wear my speedo while I am responding to the string about etiquette? 
LAO


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Long as there is NO pictures included!! Hah LOL Regal


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

if i try to behave acording to etikette, the only thing left to write is: this thread did not achieve its goal.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's not true Korm, because this forum does not require nor often enforce that all threads keep on track, let alone achieve a goal 

short aside:
It's a rule on many other forums, as well as other rules like pointing newbies to FAQ and search when they ask a FAQ. 
We have a more "friendly" policy and more "relaxed" rules here as compared to the typical internet forum. 

So, actually your statement is probably not etiquette, i.e.:


"the conduct or procedure required by good breeding or prescribed by authority to be observed in social or official life" 

I'm sure you have good breeding, so what is left is the second half of the definition.

Derailing a thread is not "officially wrong", therefore no one has violated "the conduct or procedure" in the definition above. 

So you are not behaving according to "etikette". Etiquette would not require you to make that statement, which is false anyway.


(that actually was fun... hope you get a laugh from it too!)










Regards, Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 10 Jul 2010 01:29 PM 
Sorry Jerry, did not realize you were talking about MLS people. 

But, unfortunate the statement can still apply. There's a number of people who get "free stuff" for being an "advocate"... you can tell because they often have new stuff before anyone else. Yes, I know about beta testing, I do a lot myself. 

But I return the equipment. I've never gotten anything for free except 2 defective products, one of which I gave away, the other rotted away by itself. 

I refuse to accept anything for free so I can speak honestly and freely. (Funny though, I have been accused of "vested interests" by people who have gotten free stuff and strangely enough are big advocates of that product) 

There's another common reason for people misleading others, they want to belong to a "mutual appreciation" "club"... When LGB was in it's heyday, often speaking to a dyed-in-the-wool LGB advocate, LGB could do nothing wrong. 

One final reason: There are people who are very defensive of their decisions, even if they later think they errored. in this case money refers to money poorly spent. 

Anyway, did not want to belabor the point, but that particular item can be exactly opposite the way you put it . Note carefully, I said "CAN BE"... I am just objecting to the absolute way it was stated... 

Regards, Greg 

Hi Greg,

The only facts I know are those that apply to me. I have no idea if others get free stuff for being an advocate or not. I can neither agree nor disagree because I do not know. 

I have never asked for or received free stuff from any manufacturer so naturally I get more than a little upset if someone suggests or implies that I have a hidden agenda when I am talking about stuff I paid for.

I have never done any beta testing because I would rather wait and pay for something that works rather than have the aggravation of working out the bugs in a product. I appreciate those who do because they are dealing with the headaches rather than me. On the other hand I enjoy talking to the beta testers because they help me decide if the product they are testing is likely to have a future value to me when it comes available.

While I might tend to agree about some former dyed-in-the-wool LGB advocates there was/is an equally loud anti-LGB crowd. Neither group appealed to me because both tended to think they knew better than me about what I should be doing with my money. I became (and still am) a LGB fan for many different LGB products because of the environment I run and store my trains in. 

For me there is no conflict in liking LGB Moguls, LGB Mikados, LGB F7s, Aristo E-8's Aristo SD-45's, USA NW-2s, USA GP-38s, Aristo Revolutions, Aristo stainless track, MTH Big Boys and Challengers, and LGB nickel plated turnouts. For me a variety of brands and products gives me far better opportunities than the restrictions of trying to limit myself to any particular brand or product. MTS/DCC, Revolution, TE, DCS, Battery Power, Track Power, Live Steam - I've owned and used them all. Every one of them has things I like and other things I do not like about them. That's what makes this hobby challenging and interesting.

I also agree that some people can be defensive about what they buy (after all they may have had to justify to someone (themselves at least) why they spent so much money on it). They are welcome to do that if they wish but for me, I make mistakes and do dumb things all the time so my friends are accustomed to me telling them that my latest toy turned out to be a piece of ****. I buy a lot of stuff that turns out to be **** but some of it I buy for reasons such as the **** may be on sale or cheap and is good enough for what I intend to do with it.

Regards,

Jerry

PS - for me LGB is still in its heyday and probably always will be. The beauty of this hobby is that quality products live on long after the manufacturer left the scene.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, I was not talking about you. Please do not interpret it that way. 

I'm not trying to point a finger, I'm trying to make a point, but unfortunately you need facts to do this. In this case, I'm not naming names. The people who have done these things know who they are. 

I'll agree there was the "counterpoint" to the LGB "squad". There's nothing wrong with appreciating LGB. Blind loyalty is another issue, I believe we agree. 

Regards, Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

You are ALL, very special...


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

OH! PLEEEEEEAAAASE! Nobody start singing "Cum By Ya"! PLEASE!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess the next thing will be a push for a group hug.


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

I recently read on a computer-tech-oriented website that an *increasing number of websites *(I'm talking non-train related here) are *requiring the use of actual names *







instead of "handles" (to use the old CB radio term) or pseudonyms for forum ID's. - The amount of *troll-induced flame wars *







on some of these sites are *staggering.*









I've (so far) encountered only *one actual troll *







here on MLS - who years ago came into a technical discussion with comments to the effect that the manufacturer's should be *forced *







into *not *implementing certain standards *("legislated" by WHOM *







, *exactly*







*). *He promptly *"vanished"* back into the anonymity of cyberspace when I called his bluff to the effect of *"Wow - that was a really useful contribution to this thread! (NOT!!!)" *







Problem was, he managed to alienate another contributor to the thread *from MLS, *who also disappeared.









As expensive as this hobby is, we have to remember it is *exactly that - a HOBBY. *







When hobbies quit being *FUN *







, people *leave them. *







I've specifically gone through this with what *was *one of my favorite hobbies years ago (amateur radio). I used to maintain a repeater system for the local radio club; their original system was so unreliable that I got disgusted & designed & built a newer *(far more reliable) *system for the club, charging them only my own cost for components. Even at that, one *particularly noisy member *







complained constantly about *any downtime - he considered it his own personal "cell phone" system. *A *totally non-technical guy, *he made the mistake of calling my competence into question at a meeting that *I wasn't at - had I been there, I would've invited him to "step outside".*







Several months later, the club president called me to service the repeater again - my response? I told him *"I quit! Get someone else!" *







My home-built repeater served the club *reliably for @ 10 years, with very little downtime; *I think it cost the club about $400 for me to build it out of surplus commercial 2-way radio components. The system they replaced it with cost the club *$2500 - & it goes in a box back to the manufacturer when it breaks. *







Sorry if I've digressed here a bit; I'm just using this as an example of how someone can actually be *badgered out of activity in a hobby. *







(As an additional note since I know there are more than a few hams on here - I still maintain my ham license & have my ham gear, but *boy *is it gathering dust!








). Tom


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 10 Jul 2010 07:46 PM 
Jerry, I was not talking about you. Please do not interpret it that way. 

Regards, Greg 

Hi Greg,

I did not take it that way. Often it is those newest to the hobby who get the most stuff thrown at them promoting this and that and often it is those newest to MLS who have yet to learn for themselves who their fellow MLSers are and why they say what they do. I stopped posting on the Beginners Forum years ago because of the anti-LGB element who attacked anything ever said about LGB.

One of the wisest things I have heard in a long time came from someone I would never have expected it from...

Vice President Joe Biden was on the Tonight Show and Jay Leno asked him to repeat something Joe had told him some time ago. Joe said that he had learned that he should never question another person's motives. 

It is perfectly OK to question the validity of misrepresented facts and it is OK to disagree with someone else's opinions and preferences but when we question their motives we are making assumptions that go beyond the facts as we may think we know them.

I want to be clear that I am not directing this comment at you.

My point is that I think Joe's comments go to the root of many of the conflicts here on MLS.

Why does one MLSer prefer LGB, another Aristo-Craft, another USAT, another Bachmann etc.? If anyone ever asked them they would probably have a very good reason for why they do what they do. The problem is that too few make any effort at understanding others who see and do things differently than they do. 

A former boss (one of the best I ever had) once sent me the book "Jonathan Livingston Seagull." I have since obtained a video of it. I would recommend it to everyone. 
I just found this:

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/?q...FORM=VIRE2


Jerry


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey Jerry I too was given Jonathan Livingston Seagull by a dear friend. Should be on the mandatory reading list.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By John J on 11 Jul 2010 09:39 AM 
Hey Jerry I too was given Jonathan Livingston Seagull by a dear friend. Should be on the mandatory reading list. 

Hi JJ,

I totally agree. I guess JLS pretty much explains my approach to garden railroading (I want to experience all of it - not just what one manufacturer makes or what one group favors).

I found this clip of Joe Biden's comments regarding judging other people's motives. My opinion of our Vice President went up considerably after hearing what he had to say.

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/the-tonight-show-with-jay-leno-vice-president-biden-part-2/a7c0aae5bbe15a0bc85da7c0aae5bbe15a0bc85d-175768010835

My wife really likes him while I have never cared for his political views on specific issues that are important to me. Still, I can respect the man without agreeing with (all of) his political views.

Regards,

Jerry


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Matter of fact we do have an MLS group hug at our open house. And a photo is taken. 
Personally I feel my goal is to see the hobby group. Which also means modelers to grow to what ever their next step is. 

As for myself I feel I can review a product given to me or not. I support the company even if i send an item back that does not meet my personal needs. 
Free or not its just part of their line. 

When folks come to our open house I feel that most folks can relax and don't have to prove or defend their view on something with the hobby. Most folks know what their walking into. 

If I go on a layout tour I don't have to answer the usually questions of , how many cars do you have? how large is your layout? 

It does not matter, I'm there to enjoy their layout. 
Staying focused on the bigger picture. 
Back to working on my "toys".


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

[/b]

Yeah, isn't it interesting grown men (I assume) hiding behind pseudos. 

John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

"Yeah, isn't it interesting grown men (I assume) hiding behind pseudos. " 

Another fine example of a poor choice of words. You are assuming much more than you admit. 

I happen to enjoy living where I have no fences and my rolling stock is safe outside. Should I bend to such slurring, my railroad would be in jeopardy. 
My security advisor tells me to use a nickname. Should anybody have a legit need for my name, I will glady send it to them personally. 

It's your impilcation that seems to make my motives suspicious, not my actions or intentions. 
There are legitimate reasons for a nickname, too bad if you can't accept that. 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I know in general it's wise not to "slather" the internet with your name. 

But I use my real name on train forums. Not ebay, not google. I have some pretty sophisticated spam filters. I have not noticed any more spam from the train forums. They are just too "little" in the larger world of the Internet, in my opinion. 

I get more from my credit card companies, amazon.com, and places I have purchased from. Also, before I added controls to stop web sites from harvesting information from visits, I got a lot of spam that way. 

Just my experience over the last 9 years or so. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 11 Jul 2010 02:35 PM 
"Yeah, isn't it interesting grown men (I assume) hiding behind pseudos. " 

Another fine example of a poor choice of words. You are assuming much more than you admit. 

I happen to enjoy living where I have no fences and my rolling stock is safe outside. Should I bend to such slurring, my railroad would be in jeopardy. 
My security advisor tells me to use a nickname. Should anybody have a legit need for my name, I will glady send it to them personally. 

It's your impilcation that seems to make my motives suspicious, not my actions or intentions. 
There are legitimate reasons for a nickname, too bad if you can't accept that. 

John 

Dam John,
And i thought you were the calm one around here....................he he he
















John is your real 1st name rite?


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Ltotis on 10 Jul 2010 03:18 PM 
Is it bad etiquette for me to wear my speedo while I am responding to the string about etiquette? 
LAO 

Oh no not the speedo again........................SAVE US ALL.......


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

It is my experience that no matter what your response or what your question is that it is best too accept the fact that you are wrong right from the beginning. I have had a couple of issues in MLS with regards to what your talking about and have had to just bow down too those in here that are always right and just let it go. I have gotten a lot of good advice from many people in MLS and learned many new skills. I refuse to let the few people diminish my experience here.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Like most I believe if you need a name then PM me and you may get it. As for a site requiring it in order to participate then it sure would be nice if they enforced the rule and not be selective about it. I do prefere the anonymous type names tho. Later RJD


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I believe that using one's real name makes no difference. I have met some of the people that cause problems here on mls. Talking to the directly or listening how they talk to other people they are the same Off line as on Line.

That is what is fun about the MLS gatherings. Sit back and watch and listen to people. Observe the different personalities. It gives you new insight into the people here. 

JJ


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

The owner of this forum uses his real name.
If he decides that all members do this, what will you boys do? 

John


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I have used my real name on MLS since this forum was started ten years ago and NO problems yet. In fact, when this site was started, 90% of the folks joining used their real names. But sadly, for one reason or another, they have left this site.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 11 Jul 2010 03:14 PM 
Posted By Totalwrecker on 11 Jul 2010 02:35 PM 
"Yeah, isn't it interesting grown men (I assume) hiding behind pseudos. " 

Another fine example of a poor choice of words. You are assuming much more than you admit. 

I happen to enjoy living where I have no fences and my rolling stock is safe outside. Should I bend to such slurring, my railroad would be in jeopardy. 
My security advisor tells me to use a nickname. Should anybody have a legit need for my name, I will glady send it to them personally. 

It's your impilcation that seems to make my motives suspicious, not my actions or intentions. 
There are legitimate reasons for a nickname, too bad if you can't accept that. 

John 

Dam John,
And i thought you were the calm one around here....................he he he
















John is your real 1st name rite?





















I'll have you know that I typed that one and this one with a calm steady hand!









I'm not suggesting that others do as I do, just wish there was less flack and wrong assumptions...

I happen to have a unique last name, I'm always the only one in the phone book, why give thieves road maps?









John R. C.(here's a tease)


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By jebouck on 11 Jul 2010 04:39 PM 
The owner of this forum uses his real name.
If he decides that all members do this, what will you boys do? 

John 



funny before you assumed we were grown men and now we are boys?









I play by the rules, what's it to you?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

John:

I strongly agree, my last name is very rare. There are less than a hundred of us in the country. Because I travel, I would rather not let my exact location and name be public knowledge.

Chuck is my real nickname.

Chuck N


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

This is nothing. You should see what it's like in a hobby that is government-regulated, and where "differing opinions" can result in someone poking the regulatory hornet's nest just to prove a point, or to back-stab a competitor, or "for the good of the hobby" or some other such "noble" sounding baloney.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't understand the need by some to know a person's real name. What does it prove? Are they more believeable to you? How do you know it is really their real name? Do you really think these websites that require your real name be used, check to verify their members are actually who they say they are? We all know of Greg Elmassian. But while some have met him and some may even have been to his house, Has anyone seen his drivers license? Do we really know who he is? And if he really is someone else, does it really matter? He has a website that has tons of great information. He tries to help when ever he can and most people on this site appreciate his help. So if we found out tomorrow that he was really someone else, would the information not be so believeable? This senario could be related to anyone on this site that list a first and last name. As I see it, what your name really is makes no difference to me. Who you are in this forum is much more important to me. Are you part of the solution or part of the problem. Typically it doesn't take me long to figure out who is here to help and who is here to cause trouble and then there is Nick. LOL 

Randy Stone


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

jebouck, if that is a real name, 

Why don't you pay up and join this site, for which you so freely want to set the standards ??? 

Mebbe you're just a greifer? 

[greifer; One who likes to be a contrarian.] 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Sorry gang, but Pay up or Shut up came to mind.... ha ha. Yeah it is a Great Site and by paying dues I help Shad keep it open. Shad??? is that a nickname? Hmmmm 

I apologise to anyone offended by this post, I use an alias and I approved this message. (smiley) 

What's his face.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By chuck n on 11 Jul 2010 05:41 PM 
John:

I strongly agree, my last name is very rare. There are less than a hundred of us in the country. Because I travel, I would rather not let my exact location and name be public knowledge.

Chuck is my real nickname.

Chuck N 



My situation is similar. I formerly used my name and I very seldom go anywhere but last year when I was going to be away, one particular ******* just to be an ******* highlighted the fact that I was going to be gone.

Google's search engine and Google Map make it far too easy to find out way too much about each of us. Friends (and MLS) know who I am. Others have no reason to want to know unless and until they too become friends. I am more comfortable using my real name on forums where everyone is required to use their name. When someone with an alias (especially with a short MLS history) asks a lot of questions there is no way to know if he is legitimate or not.

Jerry


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I tend to think of those MLS'ers using their real names to be my friends, or at least an acquaintance. I feel like I get to know them, because I remember what they post, and there opinions of things. Those with handles, are just no-names. I don't know them, and for the most part don't care, unless I somehow make a connection with a real name. I am sure there are folks on here using handles that have been posting here longer than I, but I don't know you or remember you. Sorry.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

This website does not demand we use real names. I would prefer we did, but I can live with that. 

If it ever came to a vote of the participants, I would vote for using real names. 
Mostly for the same reasons Del gives. I believe anonymity means the users have something to hide. 

But, to each his own.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Posted By Jerrys RR on 11 Jul 2010 07:24 PM 
... I am more comfortable using my real name on forums where everyone is required to use their name...

you yourself mentioned google and google earth.
if it were just about the people here in the forum, there woiuld not be much of a problem.
but everything - including names - written here is just a couple of clicks away for billions of people.

good behaviour is not a question of real names.
this forum is the proof of it.
we got some writers, who seem to be using real names, but anyhow don't write as polite, as many of those with invented nicknames do.

korm
.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Using your real name on this site is the LEAST of your worries! I Googled my name about five years ago and my name showed up about a battle in Vietnam I fought in! 1967 no less! This was in a book published by the 9th INF Division. Another one came up with articles I wrote for Live Steam magazine and Modeltec magazine in 1986! Even a "handle name" can be researched. Have no fear. It's the technology age we live in now. NO MAN IS AN ISLAND. I agree with Del's assessment on using real names or "handles".


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

I use a "nick" on MLS because that's the way I originally signed up for the Forum. My nick: "PimanJC" aludes to the fact that I spent 35 years as a mathematician and also contains my initials. At the end of all my posts, I sign "JimC." which is my real name. In the old forum, I manipulated the side data to include my full name and city. That is not possible in the current version of MLS. 

On Chat, I go by another name: JC. Jim Francis frequents Chat, and it is less confusing if two of us don't use the same name. Therefore, I use my Initials. 

BTW, back to the original topic of this thread, I am one of those that JJ mentioned, that no longer posts technical threads about RC, sound, etc.. 

JimC.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Hmm, I guess it should surprise no one that I don't mind folks who use pseudonyms on the forums. Many here use the names of their railroads (or their favorite prototypes), and I've no trouble with that. It's a way of presenting to the public where your interests lie. I personally think that in a forum like this, that can be as informative or even more so than just your name. I'll agree--names are nice, but I don't hold anyone in less of a light should they choose not to use theirs publicly. We all have our reasons. Who am I to second guess someone's motives for wanting to protect their privacy a bit? Lord knows we have precious little of that on the internet anymore. Why begrudge someone for wanting to maintain just a shred of it? It doesn't take long on these forums to figure out who's who in terms of their handles anyway. 

Specific to MLS and individuals' behavior on it, there's no statistical difference in good or bad behavior between those who use their real names and those who use pseudonyms. Yeah, the spammers always use pseudonyms, but they're typically unintelligible gobbledygook as opposed to "SantaFeFan" or something train related. And it's not their usernames that tip us off, it's the titles and content of their posts. 

For the most part, those of us who use pseudonyms on this forum make no secret of who we are when asked. I think back to last year's MLS gathering at my place, and perhaps half the people in attendance use handles here. This is a social hobby, and we're all pretty much willing to present ourselves and our real names in that face-to-face environment. I would argue that those looking to present themselves as someone else or truly have "something to hide" are just as likely to simply use a made up "real" name. I've seen it play out on other forums that have "rules" about names. It makes no difference. Those with nefarious intentions simply bend the rules to their needs. 

Later, 


K


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

My only point was to suggest everyone take a minute (or 5) to think about what they typed before they hit Submit. Even if not for the reasons I had originally intended etiket (had to misspell) but for perhaps reasons I keep in mind anyway when posting, personal safety, i.e. don't post you're out of town and your address. Not everyone realizes this medium should sometimes be treated as if what you type is what will be the headline of tomorrow's local newspaper (when people actually read newspapers and it mattered). 

I've enjoyed and also been enlightened by some of the posts in this thread. I live in FL and if *ANY* of you on this thread sent me a note that you would be nearby and wanted to meet up I wouldn't hesitate to make it happen. I've made quite a few friends as well as met in person more than I expected in the short time I have been on this forum. 

russ


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Just call out, "Tom! You're train's about to wreck," at any event and you'll understand why I call myself Torby.







It's my name with a few letters missing. Am I afraid somebody will look me up and sue me over an opinion I've expressed here? Na, we're just playing with toys. Some of us are very good at it, but they are just toys afterall.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

My situation is similar. I formerly used my name and I very seldom go anywhere but last year when I was going to be away, one particular ******* just to be an ******* highlighted the fact that I was going to be gone.

Google's search engine and Google Map make it far too easy to find out way too much about each of us. Friends (and MLS) know who I am. Others have no reason to want to know unless and until they too become friends. I am more comfortable using my real name on forums where everyone is required to use their name. When someone with an alias (especially with a short MLS history) asks a lot of questions there is no way to know if he is legitimate or not.

Jerry
Welcome to the cautious side.....

Aw shucks Jerry, I've talked to that fellow since and he's another nice guy.
Remember I had a similar concern the year before. You wanted me kicked out!







Neither he nor I, wished you harm, we felt you were taking chances, you weren't hiding in plain site. All it takes is one; 'Whose going to?'
Whether or not he posted, your plans were already out there. Heck I google my favorite mine and I get my MLS posts! Anything posted here is open on the net. Maybe one could google the destination and get a list....
I think it is risky for people to 'advertise' their travel plans here, but I'd be some what protected by virture of a nick. Now you will be too.

A couple of years ago there was a train robbery in Colo., during a large trainshow/event. I would like to think that every MLS member is honest, but with the open net the odds go down that everyone out surfing is.

Personal messages are a lot safer and perhaps more accurate whlie computing a tally and you can still have banter about coming events in forums....
Gone are the days of 'that old gang' that the good old boys remember, some with arrogance, (ooops no etiquette!) MLS keeps growing...

Of course those with modern security and big fences won't care as much, but my home is out on the open range and I won't be fenced in.
Yeehaw, git along big piggie!







(Javalinas)









John


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 14 Jul 2010 10:35 PM 
Aw shucks Jerry, I've talked to that fellow since and he's another nice guy.

John


Hi John,

I don't even remember who it was. My point was that each of us should make an effort to protect each other's security. Topics that include things that involve someone being gone or the name of a person using an alias should be handled with respect for the security of everyone.

Jerry


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I have brought this up several times..in fact, I got kicked off the Aristo forum for daring to bring this up..the "powers that be" didnt want to hear the truth: 

You cant enforce "real names" anyway.. 
you can have a pointless rule that says "you must use your real name".. 
but in reality all that means is "you must create a username that *sounds like* a real name".. 
if your real name is "James William Bottomtooth the third" you can simply sign up with the name "Joe Smith" and no one will be the wiser.. 
thats why a "real names" rule is pointless..you will still end up lots of "fake names that simply sound like real names".. 

I wish I hadnt used my real name quite so much in the past, on internet forums.. 
too late now though.. 
If I could start over, I would probably use nothing but pseudonyms, and not my real name at all.. 
Fellow hobbiests I know in "real life" could just be aware of my internet "handle", and would know its me.. 
otherwise, who REALLY needs to know my real name? 

Scot


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Me, I ain't worried about it. I have nothing to hide and I can't remember many times where I posted something I am ashamed of. If you Google my name, you'll most likely find out I love trains and spend a lot of time talking and thinking about them. No biggie.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You do realize that your local TV "personalities" use pseudonyms? I have seen many times when a newsperson quits and goes into the private sector, but the new job is as a "spokesperson" for their new employer. When they then get interviewed on the air for some reason their name has changed from what it was when they were working for the TV station. Sometimes they just used a shortened form of their last name but kept their own first name when working for the TV station and sometimes they use their Mother's maiden name for their last name and take a first name to honor a Grandparent or Aunt or Uncle, and other times they choose a totally different name that has nothing to do with their real identity. This is a very common thing for people to do. 

Even artists change their names to sign their works. I have a artist friend whose middle name is "Franklyn" so he signs his paintings "Frank Lynn". 

I too, wish I had never listed my real name on the internet. 

But consider this one... 
I worked with an "exchange engineer" one summer who was from near the Thailand/Cambodia border, but his family was of Indian (India) extraction. Their society named children with a "new" first name and their "Last" name was their Father's First name... i.e.: if Frank Lynn had a son, he might be named Joe and thus his name would be Joe Frank, and if he had a son he might become Tom Joe. Very difficult to follow family ancestry that way. 

The engineer's Father's name was "Yu" (pronounced "You"). His first name was "Phuc" (I wonder if that will get deleted when I hit 'submit'?!), and, Yes, that "Ph" is pronounced as an "F" and the "c" on the end was a hard "c" so saying his full name was, in our society, an obscenity. He was insulted when people giggled when they were introduced and he refused to take a more acceptable nickname. I called him, "Mr. Yu" and even that bothered him, so from then on I just said, "Hey!" when I needed his attention. 

I wonder how using his real name on an internet forum would go over????


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 15 Jul 2010 06:35 AM 


Posted By Totalwrecker on 14 Jul 2010 10:35 PM 
Aw shucks Jerry, I've talked to that fellow since and he's another nice guy.

John


Hi John,

I don't even remember who it was. My point was that each of us should make an effort to protect each other's security. Topics that include things that involve someone being gone or the name of a person using an alias should be handled with respect for the security of everyone.

Jerry


Sorry Jerry,
You just don't get it. You were advertising that fact (plans to travel). We thought you should be more careful. Instead you blamed us for pointing out what was already visible!

If you don't protect yourself first, then it becomes impossible for others to protect you. We have met the enemy and it is us......

I am Train Poor; 2 1/2 locos and less than 20 cars, you on the other hand, judging by pics you have posted, are Train Rich and that adds to your liability.

We can't protect you when you advetise your plans. It's (to me) foolish to expect that! If you ae a victim, it's by your own hand, not ours.

Respectfully,
John


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

(im drifting here a bit..but I think its an interesting topic!  

concerning our "real names".. 
anyone here dabble in genealogy? 
I have started a major genealogy project..tracing the family lines of my four grandparents.. 

there is a common "genealogy myth" concerning Ellis Island..it goes something like this: 

'Immigrants arriving at Ellis Island, who had very ethnic and difficult to prounce names, were sometimes given new names by the person checking them in! 
(lets say someone's real surname was "MACIEJEWSKI"..just to pick a random name) 
"Welcome to America Mr mack..macey..macelo..Welcome to America Mister Smith" 

This is basically a pure myth..It wasnt Ellis Island who gave people new names..it was the immigrants themselves! 
they did it on purpose, for many reasons...Mosty to give their family an "american sounding" name, in an effort to avoid ethnic prosecution, racism, and discrimination. 
They did it in an effort to blend in and start a new life in America, as Americans..they wanted to leave ethnic stife behind, and often their name could be a drawback.. 

My wife's Grandfather did it! 
Her last name is Chase..but she is not related to any other Chases around! 
Her Grandfather came to Ellis Island in the 1920's, from Lithuania..his last name was Cizus..he changed it to Chase.. 
My wife is only the 2nd generation of Chases in her family.. 

the moral of the story is..if your name is a fairly common name like "Smith" or "Jones"..(or any "American" sounding last name) 
that might not be your "real" historic name anyway!  
names are surprisingly fluid..even last names.. 

Surnames (last names) didnt even exist until the 1100 and 1200's anyway.. 
no one can realistically trace their family back any further than that.. 

Back in the early days of surnames, Sons "last names" would often be based after their fathers first name.. 
"William Michaelson" might be the first to ever use the last name "Michaelson"..because he was the Son of Michael,, 
eventually the last name would "fix" itself, and suceeding generations would continue to use it.. 

I found out my last name, Lawrence, came from the "De Lancaster" family of England.. 
My Lawrence last name goes back to "Lawrence De Lancaster"..Lawrence being his first name.. 
His son was "Sir John Lawrence" born in 1270 in England..and he was the first to use Lawrence as a last name..and this was the first time it "stuck" as a last name and 
was then passed down to suceeding generations..(there are a few other, seperate, origins of my last name as well..not all Lawrence's are necessarily descended from the same stock.. 
I know there are Lawrences named after Saint Lawrence, and Lawrences descended from Clan MacLaurin of Scotland..which I originally though I was, but now I know im not..) 
this is true of virtually all last names..there can be many many different origins of the same surname..) 

interesting stuff! 

Scot


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's my two cents, well maybe one!!!! If I know someone's real name, for $10.00 or thereabouts, give or take some, I can find out just about anything I want to know about anybody!! Anything you have ever done in your life, court records, violations, etc. And if you are law enforcement, well pretty much anything!! Even if your records are expunged legally they are still viewable by let's say (corrupt/non-corrupt) law enforcement!! Yup really! oh and Google will lead me right to your house if I really want to see you in person, or maybe not just in person, but just be there where you are or aren't!! Regal


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry for the double post don't know why it did that????? I've seen that several times from members here in the past????? Regal


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

You are right about the ambiguity of surnames--surprisingly late in history people walked around with one name, or with a more or less commonly known last name that everyone in the village sort of knew but never used, or different last names depending on who you talked to, and none of them had standard spellings. We have a family friend who's name Grandfather's name was "leiberman" but he changed it to "lowenthal" because he thought Lieberman sounded too Jewish. On the other hand, think about the Bible--not many last names in the Bible, certainly neither Lieberman or Lowenthal, so in what sense is Lieberman" any Jewish person's "real" name? 

There are many stories of German Americans changing their names from, say, Schmidt" to "Smith" in the intense anti-German hysteria of the WWI years. 

Sometimes immigration officials did assign names though, especially when confronted with immigrants who had no clear answer to the question, or no clear spelling.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Please tell me what I was doing on March 3rd 1973? It was my birthday the day before and I got slipped a load of mickies in my lemonade and might have inadvertently been a mite less than gentlemanly.

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 15 Jul 2010 09:22 AM You are right about the ambiguity of surnames--surprisingly late in history people walked around with one name, or with a more or less commonly known last name that everyone in the village sort of knew but never used, or different last names depending on who you talked to, and none of them had standard spellings. We have a family friend who's name Grandfather's name was "leiberman" but he changed it to "lowenthal" because he thought Lieberman sounded too Jewish. On the other hand, think about the Bible--not many last names in the Bible, certainly neither Lieberman or Lowenthal, so in what sense is Lieberman" any Jewish person's "real" name? 

There are many stories of German Americans changing their names from, say, Schmidt" to "Smith" in the intense anti-German hysteria of the WWI years. 

Sometimes immigration officials did assign names though, especially when confronted with immigrants who had no clear answer to the question, or no clear spelling. 



IIRC there was a group of aviators in the 'Mighty 8th in WW2 that was made up entirely of aviators with German surnames.

As for the history of names given to Jews, especially over the last five hundred years of the diapora in Europe - well, that is a very large area to cover on a website relating to model trains.

Here in UK, where many people in the US had their origins, surnames were, as you suggest, quite a recent innovation - people started getting surnames around the first half of the fourteenth century. Famouse names from that period include Francis Bacon, Geoffrey Chaucer, William Caxton and so on. Most names were either locational - John [of the ] Wood, Simon [of the Hill], or occupational - William Fletcher, Thatcher, Miller, Shoemaker/Cordwainer, Tanner, Fuller, Boatwright, Painter, Baker, Cook, Viner, Hunter, Rider, Shepherd, Falconer and so on.

In Euope very few Jews had surnames outside their own community as you would understand it - people were called ther own name and their father's - Simon bar Chaim, but later on, they assumed names of their occupation, too - Goldsmith, or just Gold or Silver, even Diamond [like Neil Diamond]. Many names were forcibly GIVEN to Jews by the authorities, and were derogatory in nature, like Goldwasser - I leave it your imagination what THAT means.

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Just as Michaelson can mean Son of Michael, the Icelanders, a more matriarchical society, have many, many family names that end in "...dottir".

jack


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## Dwayne (Jun 10, 2010)

With regards to the original topic, I prefer to treat others as I would want to be treated.

Sadly in this day and age it's becoming more common for people to treat others like inferiors and dolts. My job as a trucker allows me to meet people from all over the US & Canada. Sometimes I'm treated like a human, sometimes like a dog. In the latter case I often just keep my mouth shut, nod my head and put distance between myself and the other person in order to remain professional as I am a representative of my employer. In the former case I have gone so far as thanking people for treating me kindly.

In this hobby we call model railroading, there are no right ways or wrong ways. This forum provides me with a means of learning how others solve problems in order to see if those solutions will work to solve my problems as I play with my preferred Large Scale scale [insert plug for 1:17n30







].

My opinion is simply abide by the Golden Rule. Civility is the lubrication of a polite society... although I also believed that an armed society is a polite society too... but that's a whole other topic.









Keep the hobby fun guys. Play with trains.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

like Goldwasser - I leave it your imagination what THAT means. 

it translates to "Goldwater" and does not mean "p**". 
goldwasser is alcohol with herbs and some very fine gold in it. 
nowadays its just a fancy licor,(most famous as "Danziger Goldwasser") but in former times it was a remedy against rheumatism.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Exactly so, Korm - that is just what I meant. I naturally assumed that worldly-wise folks on this forum would be familiar with the alcoholic beverage with tiny flakes of gold leaf in it , as is anybody who has lived, as we did, in Germany for many years.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

To think, I used to sell that concoction when I was in sales especially the Danzig version!! Believe it was the Egyptians that discovered or promoted the medicinal qualities that gold in a drink cured many things!! Now bring on the "Jaggermeister" hah LOL Another herbal concoction with healing and or psycho physical properties!! Ah how time slips away! eh Korm?????? Regal


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Ah how time slips away! 

yes, specially when i'm thinking about a certain ... (censored, because unfit for the etiquette thread), who is too lazy to go on with his friday night show. 
"Jägermeister" got the rhymed nick: "Leberkleister" (means liver-glue) a very interesting experience, if administered in bigger quantities... 

but back to topic: 
this thread-drift would be the point, where we might expect a certain... other one to chime in with a couple of animated little pictures and no sensefull text. 
(in my eyes not very helpfull for any topic) 
.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 15 Jul 2010 03:55 PM 
Ah how time slips away!

yes, specially when i'm thinking about a certain ... (censored, because unfit for the etiquette thread), who is too lazy to go on with his friday night show. 
"Jägermeister" got the rhymed nick: "Leberkleister" (means liver-glue) a very interesting experience, if administered in bigger quantities... 

but back to topic: 
this thread-drift would be the point, where we might expect a certain... other one to chime in with a couple of animated little pictures and no sensefull text. 
(in my eyes not very helpfull for any topic) 
. 

HMMMMMMM A few things come to mind, WAAAA WAAAA WAAAA .............

















If People drank top shelf you wouldnt crap Gold nuggets for the next week...........







Gray Goose come to mind. If you cant stand the HEAT get out of the fire.... Is my MOTTO




















Ok got to roll, Its 2 for 1 nite at the Pink Patatoe. But one $59.00 watered down beer, get 2 lap dances with the chubby chic of your choice..HA HA HA 

PS
Jerry when you going to get that Friday nite thing going again i so Luv to Chat with the fellas.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 15 Jul 2010 03:55 PM 
Ah how time slips away! 

yes, specially when i'm thinking about a certain ... (censored, because unfit for the etiquette thread), who is too lazy to go on with his friday night show. 
"Jägermeister" got the rhymed nick: "Leberkleister" (means liver-glue) a very interesting experience, if administered in bigger quantities... 


And who you be thinking about me or sniff????????????????? or both???? Hah LOL Not lazy just gettin things done on our layouts kinda like making hay whilst the sun shines. 100 degrees here today Whew layout is a calling the spirit is willing but the body is NOT! Too hot!! Yikes. Over and out Kormy!! I'll get Nick after ya, that'll keep ya busy!!


but back to topic: 
this thread-drift would be the point, where we might expect a certain... other one to chime in with a couple of animated little pictures and no sensefull text. 
(in my eyes not very helpfull for any topic) 


.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not fair to pick on Jerry, there's more factors at work on the show. 

We want to resurrect it, I need to set up a studio. 

We'll be dissecting locos in no time! 

Greg


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I bet many of you don't use your real names because you don't want old girlfreinds asking you to return thier disco records.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By xo18thfa on 16 Jul 2010 04:54 PM 
I bet many of you don't use your real names because you don't want old girlfreinds asking you to return thier disco records.


What is a disco record







Rock and Roll lives







I bet Kormy could tell us..........................







Hee Hee Hee .......................


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

"Disco"????? you mean dis foot go here, dat foot go der!!!! OH boy bad joke but popular back den!! Hee hee Regal


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 15 Jul 2010 08:16 PM 
Not fair to pick on Jerry, there's more factors at work on the show. 

We want to resurrect it, I need to set up a studio. 

We'll be dissecting locos in no time! 

Greg 


Yeah Greg, your at least two weeks over yer 2 weeks of getting yer studio up???? Hah LOL I may be broadcasting "live" from the layout "soon" if my alterations, or should we say my fixing up abortion track goes well!!! Will know later tonight. If and when I go "live" as I've said I'll post it on here and over there!! We are thinking Greg,Noel, and myself of doing either a Sat morning show, and or a Sunday afternoon show but for now just random!!! Noel's schedule is good for Sat morning Greg's is good for Sunday afternoons and mine is whenever someone cares to join me "whenever" I'm kinda "retired" but mostly "tired" Hah LOL Regal


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So, I try to protect you and you bite me in the butt!

You, know, I just can't get no respect!


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah! but it was a kinder gentler type of bite!! You know you like the "attention" Hah LOL Regal


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