# F18 crashes on our street!!!



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

An F18 just crashed up the street from our house!!! I heard a small boom of the ejection, and a huge boom of the plane's impact, and ran outside to see fire and smoke all over the street about two blocks from us!! There were smaller booms that kept going off as the fire burned.


Someone spotted a parachute in the canyon and me and a few other guys tried to find the pilot. The chute was all tangled and the ejection seat was dirty, didn't really look like anyone had been in it. We searched all over the hillside but could find no sign of him.


At least one house is on fire and several cars are destroyed.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I just saw the headline on Yahoo news! WOW! Glad you are Ok! 

Chas


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

From the aerial views on the news, it looks like the plane hit a house and then the debris ended up in the middle of the street.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Glad your safe Ray, but someones life just got ruined. It could easily have been you.

Radio said the pilot ejected safely, sure as s**t hope no-one was in that house, they'll be **** to pay as it is for ditching a plane over a residential area and destroying someones house. 

Is it just me or does ejecting from a plane full of fuel and maybe weapons over a residential neighborhood seams almost criminally negligent? 

What if the plane hit a school for Christs sake? Pilots safe, oohh Kay...but did he think about what happens when the flippin plane hits the ground? 

As I said, Theres gonna be big time **** to pay...these incidents never go well with the public. I can already hear the questions in the Official Inquiry...Was the plane on fire?, falling apart in air? could he have made it back to base? why at the least didn't the pilot try to glide the plane to a safe clear area before ejecting? 

Get ready for a s**t-storm folks


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Happens quite frequently here in San Diego. I was working in Sorrento Valley (west end of the base) when a jet crashed into a building there. Luckily no one hurt, but took a large chunk out of a business building on a Sunday. 

Looks like the guy thought he might make it back to the base. There were reports that he had raised and lowered the gear several times. The pilot is fine. 

Regards, Greg


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## Mark L Horstead (Jan 2, 2008)

An ejection is an absolutely last-ditch thing to do, once all other options have been ruled out (often a very speedy ruling-out) and there is no choice. Nobody wants to leave an aircraft and trust the escape system, regardless of what the aircraft's over. And the last thing that anybody wants is to have one go down in a built-up area. 

If he had to punch out, that aircraft was going down anyway. Riding it in wouldn't have helped anybody, or their house.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Yikes! 

FoxNews says 2 dead.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I do understand all that about being the last option, but I also know that the general public doesnt, if I'm flying a Piper Bonanza and I get hit by that cruise missle AKA a seagull and lose my engine, I'm going down, I dont have any ejection seat to punch out with, I'd have to guide the beast down as best I could and try to glide down to a safe place to crashland, even if it killed me. Military concludes that saving the pilots life is preferable to training a new one, so they will punch out when told to or when there judgement tells them its time to go or buy the farm, knowing the plane could kill people on the ground. Joe Public dont get that, like I said. once the smoke clears, get ready for the screaming masses and one hellova s**t storm.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 12/08/2008 4:12 PM
Yikes! 

FoxNews says 2 dead.


Shiii-it! thats the end of that pilots career...yes it does happen that way.

2 dead? Forget the s**t storm, s**t hurricane now....heads will role, regardless of fault.


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## McGinty26 (Jan 3, 2008)

A buddy of mine who flew A6's off the JFK told me jets cant do a control glide like a prop job because they're not an aerodynamic instrument, that its the power of the engine that is 75% for keeping it aloft. I'm sure there are more than enough"experts" on this forum that will let us in on the whole story. 

Meanwhile, I'm gonna say a prayer for the deceased and their families. 

Pat McCarty


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

As an amateur (and not very current) pilot, I'm not going to opine on what the F-18 driver should have done. I wasn't there - I wasn't strapped into that seat when the engine sh*t the bed (or whatever happened) and I sure as heck haven't ever had to make that kind of split second decision. And, yes, his career is in a ton of hurt. But if the investigation finds he was basically faultless, he may get to fly again.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jlinde on 12/08/2008 4:45 PM
And, yes, his career is in a ton of hurt. But if the investigation finds he was basically faultless, he may get to fly again. 


True, but these incidents do tend to follow a pilots career all there lives especially when theres deaths involved. Pilots have been known to have there careers stall just for losing a plane even when its technically not their fault, when theres deaths involved... its like an Albatros around the neck.

Just heard on the news, one woman and a kid were killed, another person and another kid are also missing.


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

vsmith - under the circumstances, I've got to agree that things look pretty bad for his career. Even if he gets cleared, he'll always be the guy who killed a family. Still, the worst part will be the inevitable guilt and emotional pain. It's just a terrible thing for all involved.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Imagine the guilt, second guessing and event replaying that poor guy's going to suffer the rest of his life.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I do know that when incidents like this occur, the parties involved are very likely to hang up the saddle and retire to the chicken farm. It's one thing when only property is lost in an incident, easier to get around emotionally, but when theres an unintentional death involved, thats another thing entirely.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Glade your ok Ray. The statement from Greg happen often concerns me. Sounds like major problems need to be addressed. Looks like some more govt cover up. Later RJD


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

A very tragic day, I feel so sad for the folks who lost their homes and loved ones. And I feel bad for the pilot who will have to live with this, whether it's his fault or not. From all eyewitness reports it appears the plane had some kind of serious mechanical problem. Riding it into the ground would only add his life to the toll and is unlikely to have saved anyone. 

As for the subject of crashes, they are inevitable. If you live near an airport or airbase or under any kind of flight path long enough, stuff's going to happen. No coverup involved -- the airbase has been here for decades so naturally there have been other crashes over the years. They aren't frequent but they do happen. 

There has also been numerous crashes over years, of small planes out of the general aviation field a few miles to the south. Some of those have killed people on the ground too. 

And if the military ever moved out of Miramar, the city would swoop down on it and turn it into a replacement for Lindbergh Field. Then it would be passenger jets crashing into neighborhoods instead of military jets. Personally I'd rather take my chances with the military.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

news says pilot radiod trouble was trying to reach a canyon, didnt make it before engines quit. Witnesses on ground said plane had no sound as it fell, pilot punched out very close to ground, so close one witness said he saw pilot eject and then watched the canopy crash landed in a backyard. 

Very bad day for all involved, 4 on ground suspected dead, 3 confirmed, 1 still missing, a woman, her two kids and a grandmother.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

One benefit of being retired...is that you get to watch this stuff on live TV....and the idiot reporters trying to report ANYTHING factual. Here's the deal...

a. Pilot launched from USS Abe Lincoln....lost an engine after the cat stroke. The other engine was running fine at that time. He declared an emergency...and probably went through a whole bunch of engine restart procedures...which didn't work.
b. He was 100 miles or so out to sea.
c. He had sufficient fuel to make it to his bingo field....Miramar MCAS. 
d. It's safer to land with one engine at a land base...than on a carrier because you cannot execute a go around (missed landing) on a carrier on one engine.
e. He was making a backwards, straight in landing at MCAS Miramar...going east. There was virtually no wind, so this makes no difference to the plane...but it can to a pilot used to landing FROM the east.
f. He dropped his landing gear in preparation for landing.
g. There were reports of loud bangs from the plane...whether these were compressor stalls from an overtasked engine on a plane that was dirtied up...or the sound of the ejection seat going, hasn't been stated yet...but there were "bangs" from the plane.
h. The plane lost power in the good engine...and the plane began brick mode flight...which is what any F18 does with no power.
i. Pilot "steered" the plane toward the canyon between the railroad track and the high school. With no engine running...control is impossible as the hydraulic pumps are shut down...and certainly he had no time to deploy his backup pump. The plane hit about 200' short of the canyon...on a street.
j. Pilot punched out at LOW altitude...landed about 600 ft from where the plane impacted. 
k. Plane hit in the middle of the street...slid through one house...and out the other side and stoppd in the middle of another street. A second house was damaged as well. Then it all burned.
m. At least three people died in the house the jet slid through...maybe a fourth.
n. Pilot talked to an retired Navy F14 pilot that had come to his "rescue" after seeing the parachute open. The pilot was on his cell phone calling his squadron to report that he was OK and that he's crashed, etc. He was not hurt seriously.
o. TV news reporters proved their total worthlessness once again...demonstrating once again, they know NOTHING about the military...or it's equipment...or it's procedures...right here in San Diego...the biggest military town in the whole United States.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

demonstrating once again, they know NOTHING about the military...or it's equipment...or it's procedures...
But they sure like to PRETEND they do don't they? Monday Morning Quarterbacks, the lot of 'em, especially when there's someone/something they can crucify. 

Glad you guys are okay. My heart goes out to the families and military personnel involved. Christmas will never be the same for any of them again.


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## John McGuyer (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't remember the specifics, but isn't the F-18 a 'fly by wire' airplane? If so, once the power is off, the pilot is there for the ride. He has no control. 

John


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## work4fil (Jan 4, 2008)

Immediately after I read this thread, I went over to LiveLeak.com to see if they had posted a video. Sure enough there is about three and a half minutes of footage shoing the fire fighters on scene. Very sad.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

If anyone's interested, I've posted the few pics I shot today at the crash site: 

http://www.raydunakin.com/Site/FA18_Crash.html 

Coming at it from the east end of the street, I couldn't see the worst of it, which is just as well.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.raydunakin.com/Site/FA18_Crash.html

Terrible accident.


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

This was an awful tragedy impacting numerous people.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 12/08/2008 8:25 PM
demonstrating once again, they know NOTHING about the military...or it's equipment...or it's procedures...
But they sure like to PRETEND they do don't they? Monday Morning Quarterbacks, the lot of 'em, especially when there's someone/something they can crucify. 

Glad you guys are okay. My heart goes out to the families and military personnel involved. Christmas will never be the same for any of them again.











Like I said, get ready for a Force 5 S**t Storm during the inquiry. Doesnt matter to the lawyers whether or not the pilot did all they could, and now that we are getting more info it seams like he did all he could. Also get ready for the inevitable calls to close the base, I can just see that coming as well.

What I dont understand is why a $60M jet has no redundent power and control system that will allow the pilot to maintain control the plane for a period of time if both engines cut out, which can happen, and would allow a pilot to attempt a restart or to at least keep control to stear the beast to a safe area to eject from. I would have thunk at least one of the smart guys at McDonald Douglas would have wanted to ensure that that $60M investment had every opportunity to land safely. I believe it was the F-4 Phantom that had an windstream powered emergency generator that kept the pumps and avionics going even if there was complete engine failure. it at least gave the pilot a degree of control of the beast.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ray Dunakin on 12/08/2008 9:15 PM
If anyone's interested, I've posted the few pics I shot today at the crash site: 

http://www.raydunakin.com/Site/FA18_Crash.html 

Coming at it from the east end of the street, I couldn't see the worst of it, which is just as well. 




Incidents like this bring back memories. My sisters house was 2 streets away from the Aero Mexico crash in Cerritos 1986, We lived about a 1/2 milw away, I was sent over by my mom to check on them right after the crash and saw some of the carnage, beleive me when I say you dont want to get anywhere near one of these when they happen. After checking on the safety of some other people I knew I got the **** out of there and will never go anywhere near a scene like that again unless absolutely necessary.









Her house was just above the upper right corner, she saw it hit, she was really shook up by it, one of the rear wheels fell into the back yard of a guy I was working with at the time. Sick thing was all the lookie-lues that poured into the crash site before the police could seal off the area. People brought their kids fer Christs sakes!, little ones! like it was a concert in the @^&%$ park!!! I hope everyone of those idiots had to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for psychological counseling for those kids for what their parents subjected them to seeing.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 12/09/2008 8:50 AM


What I dont understand is why a $60M jet has no redundent power and control system that will allow the pilot to maintain control the plane for a period of time if both engines cut out, which can happen, and would allow a pilot to attempt a restart or to at least keep control to stear the beast to a safe area to eject from. I would have thunk at least one of the smart guys at McDonald Douglas would have wanted to ensure that that $60M investment had every opportunity to land safely. I believe it was the F-4 Phantom that had an windstream powered emergency generator that kept the pumps and avionics going even if there was complete engine failure. it at least gave the pilot a degree of control of the beast.



The F18 has redundant everything...but when it's 300' above ground coming in for a landing...and you loose both engines...brick mode flight takes literally seconds to decrease that altitude to zero...and in those few seconds, the pilot first does a "huh?', then an aw s..t, then a holy s..t, then an outta here move to eject, then a one potato/two potato/three potato count while the ejection system gets rid of the canopy, the back seat...and finally the front seat where he's seated....all while the pilot is watching the ground come up...at high speed. And...meanwhile, he's trying to aim the plane at the canyon between the homes and the railroad tracks...and keep the plane right side up (ejections really suck if yoiu're upside down and low). Unfortunately, the plane hit 200' short of the canyon he was aiming at.


I believe the F18 has a windstream emergency generator...but it's not useful at 300' AGL unless it's already deployed...and even if it was, there's no way to restart a perfectly good engine during a very short, brick mode flight...let along one that just stalled. Starting jet engines takes a bunch of time...not seconds...especially those with these computerized fuel management systems like the F18.

Lastly...I kinda doubt there will be huge incriminations over this. This is a military town. While I'm sure there will be some safety changes from it...nothing big will happen...like thousands rioting to have the base closed.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Mike 
Thats clears up alot of Qs I had. 

I would like to say I hope your right about the recriminations, but sad to say we are a litigious society where people will sue for anything just because they can, and theres a very long line of lawyers waiting to take any of these cases.


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## Snoq Pass (Jan 2, 2008)

This is very very sad.









However, being raised on US Air Force bases and knowing that these pilots go through very extreme training, I have to agree with the pilot's decision (well, not hitting the house of course). From what I understand of the whole situation, that pilot did a pretty good job keeping the Hornet in the air for as long as he did. Plus, he was trying to ditch it into a canyon. Think about it, he could just punched out as soon as the second engine failed, but he didn't. Yes, I am sad for those who were killed, but it could have been even worse....


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## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

Take a look at Zappas "Trouble coming every day, sums it up." He hated journalists. 

"And further they assert 
That any show they'll interrupt 
To bring you news if it comes up 
They say that if the place blows up 
They will be the first to tell, 
Because the boys they got downtown 
Are workin' hard and doin' swell, 
And if anybody gets the news 
Before it hits the street, 
They say that no one blabs it faster 
Their coverage can't be beat 

And if another woman driver 
Gets machine-gunned from her seat 
They'll send some joker with a brownie 
And you'll see it all complete"


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Rod thats like former Eagle's Don Henley's "Dirty Laundry" ode to the evening news. 

I make my living off the evening news 
Just give me something-something I can use 
People love it when you lose, 
They love dirty laundry 

Well, I coulda been an actor, but I wound up here 
I just have to look good, I dont have to be clear 
Come and whisper in my ear 
Give us dirty laundry 


Kick em when theyre up 
Kick em when theyre down 
Kick em when theyre up 
Kick em all around 

We got the bubble-headed-bleach-blonde who 
Comes on at five 
She can tell you bout the plane crash with a gleam 
In her eye 
Its interesting when people die- 
Give us dirty laundry 

Can we film the operation? 
Is the head dead yet? 
You know, the boys in the newsroom got a 
Running bet 
Get the widow on the set! 
We need dirty laundry 

You dont really need to find out whats going on 
You dont really want to know just how far its gone 
Just leave well enough alone 
Eat your dirty laundry 

Kick em when theyre up 
Kick em when theyre down 
Kick em when theyre stiff 
Kick em all around 

Dirty little secrets 
Dirty little lies 
We got our dirty little fingers in everybodys pie 
We love to cut you down to size 
We love dirty laundry 

We can do the innuendo 
We can dance and sing 
When its said and done we havent told you a thing 
We all know that crap is king 
Give us dirty laundry!


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

Been there. Back hurt like heck for quite a while afterward. Luckily the plane came down away from civilization. Agree, all jets have the glide angle of a brick with no power.


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

I think it was `1972. I was standing on the front porch at the place where I worked in San Diego. We looked up just in time to see a small plane crash into a Southwest jetliner.

The plane crashed only about three blocks from where I worked. I think something like 145 people were killed, a few on the ground.

I will never forget that day. I taveled right by the crash scene on my way home. It was like a bomb hit the place.

John


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

The PSA crash was in Sept. 1978. For years afterwards there were still vacant lots where houses had been, and gouges in the street and sidewalks.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I remember that one also, a Boing 727 if I recall. Hit the private plane on takeoff, the private plan was at fault for flying into the restricted airspace near the airport.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

In the PSA crash, both planes were on approach for landing, with the smaller craft ahead and below the jet. 
The pilots of the jet lost sight of the Cessna, but failed to make this clear to the control tower. 

The jet, moving faster and coming down, "overran" the smaller plane. The plane was struck by the nose wheel of the jet. The damaged plane then struck the right wing of the jet, setting it on fire and causing sufficient damage to destroy its lift. Debris was also sucked into the engines at the tail of the jet. The jet turned on its side and plummeted into the ground. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_182


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## Duncan (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you to the mods for the edit... 

If he had one engine inop after leaving the carrier, he should have had the APU churning, would need to research if that supplies hydraulic, or just electrical power... 

On final, at 300' AGL? Forget trying to restart propulsion that late in the game. 

Bad juju anyway...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was booked on that PSA flight, and changed to a later flight at the last minute on a whim. 

Came in to work the next day and my girlfriend almost fainted. (worked at HP in San Diego, girl friend did the travel arrangements) 

She said "you are alive", I said yeah... she asked me if I heard about the crash, I said (coming home late) yeah, heard something... she says, look at your ticket stub (had to keep it to turn in for expense report)... 

I should have kept that ticket stub... 

Greg


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Ray, memory is a slippery thing. 

Greg, Yikes!


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

Just curious. Do F-18s have RATS (Ram Air Turbines) that produce electrical and hydraulic in the event of an emergency. Driven by airstream and deployed pneumatically. We had them on the F-4s.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep...they have a RAT...but it would be worthless at low altitude and low speed.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob, a RAT!!! Thats the airstream generator I was referring to earlier, even on the same plane, the F-4 Phantoms. 

I remember these because up to few years ago there was a company, a left over from the late 70's, selling Electric Car conversion kits for VWs, it used the electrical generator (now turned motor) part of the RAT that with only some modifications, surprisingly bolted right in place of the VW engine, the batteries were in the back seat and the trunk! Now hows that for recycling eh?


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Ray, glad you are OK and Greg, wow! A letter in today's LA Times suggests the pilot should have ditched at sea, but I guess since one engine was running, who'd a thunk it. I feel bad for the pilot and the poor man whose family was wiped out in the incident.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

I talked to our mailman yesterday. I had been worried because I know he's usually working that end of the street at that time of day. And indeed he was. 

He had delivered mail to the homes that were destroyed and crossed over to the other side of street. Heard loud pops of the ejection, thought someone was shooting at him. He looked up and saw the jet coming down, seemingly right at him. He could run either right or left, he chose right and just made it in time. If he'd gone left he would have been hit by the debris.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

We had one hit some houses here in Nashville in 1996, right along I24. A co worker saw it from his car (Mk1 VW GTI!!), said it was both scary and facinating at the same time.....


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Some good photos of the crash are here

http://picasaweb.google.com/RonBelangerPics/FA18CrashUniversityCity8Dec2008?authkey=RkNehy4osyo# 

These were taken within minutes of the crash. You can see the debris from the tree the plane hit on the way into the ground...where it hit on the street...where it slid into the house...and all the aftermath. In the google-earth photo with the annotation, you can just make out the canyon behind the homes (at the top of the photo) that the pilot was trying to aim the plane into.
http://1stclass..com/mikereilley/warning.jpg

As Vic predicted...the "rage" has begun her about flying "broken" airplanes over homes. This is a pretty sad story of raw emotions and scared people. I feel very sorry for the pilot...this has to be killing him.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

It's still surreal to see that terrible destruction in the middle of the streets and homes I know so well.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 12/16/2008 8:25 PM 
"Have they almost completed the cleanup at the crash site or are the investigators still in the area?" 



They got the street opened up past the site a couple days ago, with only the site itself fenced off. When I drove by, they had removed all the debris and even the foundations of the two homes that were hit. They even dug out the soil, leaving a hole about 3-4 deep. (Maybe due to contamination?)  

The street is still scorched and scarred, and the homes where the debris ended up have some minor damage visible. One of them had just recently finished putting in fancy brickwork, now the bricks are blackened and cracked from the heat of the fire.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Speechless.


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