# Suggestion for a good plan of a D&RGW C-21 and C-25



## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I am starting to plan a build of a D&RGW C-25 or C-21 using a Bachmann Connie as a base. My thinking right now is to really only use the running gear and scratch build the rest.

Can someone suggest somewhere I can get a good plan of the locomotives? 

Thanks
Alan


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## parkdesigner (Jan 5, 2008)

Alan, 

I am literally in the process of doing this as well! I just acquired a Vance Bass FH&PB kit (with Mr. Bass' kind help) - I would recommend watching for one of these on Ebay or in the Classified ads... a stellar cab model... 

I'm going after a C-25, off the connie base... I figure if I can hack away at the stock running gear... the Cab, some body work, plus various C/K series loco appliances from Accucraft (see their parts store) and a few others from Ozark, I should be able to get pretty darn close to what Doug Hemmeter was doing a few years back... 

http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/HemmeterGallery.html 

No matter what, just like Doug's engines, there will be incorrect wheel spacing between the 2nd and 3rd axle of the drivers, but we're talking a inch or two. 

You might also what to look into Barry's Big Trains as Barry is working up a remotor kit for the connie - so after all that hard work, you don't end up with the same ol' Bachmann junk underneath... 

It's also worth seeing what Vance did on his C-25 effort: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/steam/c25/


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Both those links are great! Thanks for that. I have a friend who is an ace with brass etching and I was intending to use his skills to help with the tender and cab. 

I have two Barry Big Trains Connie gear box + motor upgrades on order. This product has improved my enthusiasm to do the project because I will have a loco that looks great and runs well. 

I could do most of the work from photos but a plan would be a huge help and it would look impressive on the shop wall! 

I did a Google search for “D&RGW historical society.” I did get a web page, but no email address to contact them. My guess is a group like that would have access to old drawings. 

Alan


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## wrgh (Jan 26, 2008)

Alan,

I'm also in the process of building a C-25 out of a "connie". I searched for all the info that I could find on the lone D&RGW C-25. Probably the one most helpful drawing that I came across is in the January / February 1988 issue of the NARROW GAUGE AND SHORT LINE GAZETTE. On the centerfold pages are great drawings of C-25. The multiple drawings include both sides of the engine and tender, tender front and back, also showing diofferent setups for the steps and rear light on the yard version vs. the road version. front and back pictures of the cab. And last front drawing of the engine. I got a copy and carefully pulled out the staples holding the mag together, went to Kinko's and scanned and made large 1:20 scale copies. There are not alot of measurements on the drawings, but there are enough like the axel spacings to be able to get all of the info you need.

I ended up scratchbuilding most of the tender. The tender trucks were basically the only parts from the connie tender that I used, and I did narrow the trucks. Built the tender out of styrene using the great examples I've seen here on MLS.

The engine I split a pipe and slid over the exsiting connie boiler. I used the connie boiler to keep everything in line. I got some parts from accucraft like a K-27 steam dome, sand dome, smoke stack, air pump,road pilot, and headlight. Scratched the cab ot of styrene. Alot of detail parts from Trackside Details and Ozark Miniatures.

You also need to check out the exclent work of Ron Hayward. He made a C-21 out of a connie and has a lot of pictures and a link to a site showing you how he made alot of the engine and tender and parts.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Quite a few RR drawings here: http://www.livesteamlocomotives.com/id34.html 
They have K-36 and K-37. Don't be shocked by the prices, go to the page for the loco and they have
individual page prices. The plans are sized for the hernia gauge guys, but they will print them off
in the scale you want, unless you want a 10' long plan! Nice folk to deal with, I got my UP 844 plans from them in 1/29!


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Thanks for the tips “wrgh” and good luck with your build! The plans in the Gazette sounds like what I need. Could I somehow get a copy of this plan? 

Could you post the link to Ron Hayward site? I would love to have a look at his work. 

Thanks 
Alan


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Jerry I found that page, the price is highish, but if the had a C-21 and a C-25 I would get both! 

Cheers 
Alan


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## wrgh (Jan 26, 2008)

Alan,

Sure, I'll see if I can't find some of the copies that I made for myself and send you one. You'll have to send me a message with some info. The darwings / plans are outstanding. They were drawn by Al Armitage for Precision Scale Co. many years ago. Like I said before that they are just a magazine centerfold, but! when enlarged to 1:20 scale they are amazing. 
As for the Ron Hayward site you need to go to www.gtrains.co.uk/ . Look at some of Ron's amazing work. He's truely a Master Modeler. Also check out the 1:22.5 scale K-27 that he built from a connie and the T-19 that he built from a annie.

Thanks, Bill


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Bill, 

Ron's work is very nice! 

A copy would be fantastic and a great help to the project! thanks! 

I will send you a privite message. 

Alan


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## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

Note that the Gazette plan has some problems. You're going to ask me "what are they?" and I'm going to reply "it's been so long ago that I don't remember them all". The main one is the tender. The one Armitage drew was based on late 1940s photos and it clearly something the D&RGW scrounged up from the RIP track. A 1940 photo shows it with a tender the same width as the cab, which was more usual. I suspect the original rusted out and they took one from a C-16 or C-19, because it's much narrower than the cab of the C-25. 

The Connie's tender is very much like what the C-25 was built with, so you could go for "new" (Crystal River RR #103), but there were a lot of other differences you would have to model to get it "as built". It had a capped straight stack, extended smokebox, an air tank that ran nearly the length of the boiler, oil headlight, wood pilot, cab set forward with "rear porch" deck. That would make a beautiful loco! It was "modernized" sometime after it got to the Rio Grande; it still had the original tender, with an air tank perched on the deck, in the early 1920s.But personally I would scratchbuild one, probably on the frame of the Connie's tender. 

In addition to the Armitage drawing of the C-25, the only drawings I know of for the C-21s are John Maxwell's. Unfortunately, John's son Bruce passed away in July, so the disposition of the Maxwell collection is unknown at this point. But they're not super-detailed, so you're not missing much beyond the principal dimensions.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Thanks for the information Vance, all these little tips are great! 

As I’m working with the Bachmann chassis I’m forced to work around it. I’m expecting the locomotive to capture a C-25 or C-21, but not inch for inch perfect, so majority of the proportions could be guesstimated form photos. 

I hope to have a copy of the plans soon. 

Thanks 
Alan


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

This uses the Connie cab and boiler (with domes re-arranged), but its appearance is based heavily on D&RGW #360. Ideally, I'd replace the steel cab with a wood one with a roofline that was a hair lower, and I think it would look even better. 

Here's more photos... 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

Later, 

K


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

That is a great piece of work and is a nice representation of the D&RGW prototype. Well done Kevin. Over the short time I have been a member of MLS I have seen some great work come from your shop and that is no exception. Keep them coming. 

I’m building up the courage to do a complete rebuilt. It will be one of the most challenging modelling activities I have undertaken. 

I would like to start with the scratch building the tender. If that goes well then I’ll tackle the boiler and cab. 

I’m new to modelling the D&RGW and slowly sourcing prototype information. Once I have a good feel for the prototype I’ll starting putting pen to paper.


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