# Fighting the Laws of Physics



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

One: "M" Theory.

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/lawspic1.jpg 

Two: "String and Super String" Theory.

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/lawspic2.jpg

regards

ralph


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I dig your "calculating engine" in the "M" theory photo.

If the string represents the center of your ROW, it looks like it will be a "cut and fill' operation to build the Railway... cut the weeds and fill the ditch to level it... or are you planning to use some sort of super version of Lionel's "Magna-Traction" to keep the train on the rails?

According to the Bobby Fuller Four 1965 hit, wherein they sang of how they "fought the law, and the law won"; maybe you can get use the laws of physics to your advantage and not get involved in a protracted fight about it. But be sure to keeps us all informed of the skirmishes in the process.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Ralph, will this project require any complex clackety clackulus? 

Andrew


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Three: "Lorentz Fitzgerald Field contraction" 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/lawspic3.jpg

Four: "Einsteinian Space Time Curvature" 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/lawspic4.jpg

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Five: Mass distortion of parallel lines 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic12.jpg

Six: Parallel lines meet at Infinity 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic13.jpg

regards 

ralph


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

A mauve center cab that likes it both ways. Hmm, That's equality for you. 

Andrew


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Seven: Aleph-1 is the first number after infinity 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/lawspic5.jpg
www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/lawspic6.jpg

The timber and other supplies were delivered over the course of two days. The first shot shows the structural timbers which are 150x50 and 75x75 stacked on top are some of the lateral roofing laths 25x50. The other shot shows the remaining wood and construction material, these are eight 50kg bags of ballast, four 50kg bags of sharp sand and four 25kg bags of Portland cement. The wood is all 4.8m lengths of 25x50 (more laths!) 25x75 and 25x150 and there are three 10m rolls of fibreglass hot melt roofing felt (I chose green granite chip) to cover the completed base board with. 

They are all C6 rated and Tanith treated. Most of the were fresh from the treatment tube and weighed a tonne as they were still "wet" but they will dry out rapidly in a couple of days. Some words were spoken getting the lengths around the double right angle bend from the road to the back garden and around the garage in a good breeze. Added to this I had to "dodge" the overhead telephone wires and exterior fitting for the 3 phase power to the house... 

The bill was £629.54p + VAT but excluding £25 delivery charge and now I have to attack the garden to produce the "Right of Way". 

regards 

ralph


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Always exciting to get something by the truckload!! 
(Well, usually)


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Eight: Supersymmetrical theory and the need for Gluons 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/lawspic7.png

This shows the (inverted) section of one of the corner pieces (there will be nine in total).As my later father often remarked "The skill in designing something is not that it is easy to work out or that it is obvious -but rather that it is easy to build". 

I have opted for a "glue and crew" method of assembly. The sequence of assembly will be to glue the 25mm edge of a 25x150mm plank and then screw the bottom of the 25x75mm plank to it with pacified steel 4x50mm screws. The glue I intend to use is a Urea Formaldehyde resin powder which is mixed with water and spread along the joint. The glue takes about 2 hours to set. I used this same type of glue at my woodwork classes in my local Gymnasium -the slow setting time enabled schoolboy woodworkers to correct anything in the 2 hours that the lesson took!!! The two "L shaped sections are then glued and screwed together to give me my central spine. The end of the spine are then trimmed to flush. The two central laterals are then glued and screwed to the 25x150mm planks. See A-B in the PNG above. The side rails of 25x75mm are glued and screwed to the laterals and the 25x150mm planks. Finally the assembly is cut with a 5 degree angle at both ends and a further 25x50mm lateral is glued and screwed across each end. 

Each section is then glued and M8 BOLTED to its neighbour to produce three 30 degree sections the ends of each section are fitted to the saddles at the top of two 75mm sq posts and the lot bolted up with M8 bolts. 

The same technique will be used to produce the 4.8m lengths of baseboard except the laterals will spaced at 300mm intervals. 

This may seem exceeding strong and somewhat "overkill" for a corner section -but remember that it will be "hit" with a force from one or two 25Kg locos and following carriages at any speed between 0.25 and 2.0 metres per second. 

regards 

ralph


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Your Father was a wise man... I used to work with some engineers that needed that advice POUNDED into their skulls in childhood, they designed for ease of design and let production figure out how to accomplish the construction. 

As for "overkill" in strength... I would be less worried about locos and carriages at any speed and be designing for humanoids leaning on the structure and it looks like you have that well in hand.


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## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

Good to see you stiil at Ralph.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Nine: Saw tooth wave forms 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/lawspic8.jpg

This shows the rough cut corner assembly on the greenery in my orchard, (camomille and red clover). 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/lawspic9.jpg

This shows the assembly on the kitchen floor (plus some greenery) prior to gluing and screwing together. Once the assembly has set solid (about 2 days all told) I will have to shear off the 5 degree angles at each end of the assembly. Doing it this way will give a single perfect saw cut (he says....) with a panel saw and I will be able to "shoot" the ends flat with a plane. If I had tried to cut all the individual 5 degree angles I doubt that I would have been able (other than by chance) to get them all to line up. 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Ten: Tesselation of an infinite plane 

I set out the laths at the correct angle (88 Degrees) and then measured out the correct radii for the two curves 2.95 and 3.35metres. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic17.jpg

This shot shows the sections each neatly "nipped up" by 35mm on the inside plates at each end. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic18.jpg

This shot shows the first time that all the curves have been out to play(!) 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic19.jpg

I am actually rather proud of the fact that my home made assembly jigs have produced almost perfect curves of the correct radii. The initial curves where drawn on A4 graph paper and then pasted onto Plywood and bolts screwed through to produce the correct curve. I plotted out after some calculation where the points should be on a chord of that radius and basically "hoped for the best"!!! 

These curves are theoretically very tight for a Gauge '3' Loco as they are a (scale) 3.31 and 3.76 chains radii where as in real life 6 and 8 chains curves would be considered normal. This would equate to 12.07 Metres and 16.09metres respectively... 

regards 

ralph


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Beautiful!


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Eleven: P and S shell orbital volumes. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic20.jpg

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Twelve: Quark Colours with their Spin Truth and Beauty. 

After a literal back breaking two days -I am going to have to make a "workmate" that is at least 45cm taller as I seem to be spending most of my time U shaped.... Well after having "shot" the lateral braces to square with the edge using a plane and then applied more glue and screws -I get to the point (after lunch) where I can dig out my collection of saws. I used a tenon saw to get it "started" and then worked my way along the cut with a cross cut panel saw (and plenty of soap). Fortunately there was a nice breeze blowing otherwise I would have been sneezing sawdust all over the shop!!! 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic21.jpg

The usual fun and games with reaching the end of the cut happened -it snapped off and fell on my foot... HiTech Silver Shadows are not exactly designed for this and I have a few splinters of wood still stuck into the top. This is the almost completed assembly it was just before tea and I was very tired by this time so I haven't mixed up anymore glue -time enough tomorrow. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic22.jpg

The other sawn assembly is shown here on the kitchen floor placed next to each other to show the curve in production. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic23.jpg

The two sections should subtend an angle of 20 degrees -but I will admit that I haven't yet measured it. 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

13: Youngs Modulus by the method of bending a beam. 

All of the 18 modules are now screwed and glued solid. They were then test assembled on the orchard greenery and it looks HUGE 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic24.jpg

The next stage was to fit the "transom" pieces which form the yokes that hold each of the assemblies together into (hopefully) one unified piece. This involve the vile operation of using a tenon saw to cut vertically through the central spine pieces and then along the plane of the top to produce the yoke step, plus a little tidying up with a chisel and mallet. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic25.jpg

The transom pieces had to be "custom cut" as each was a couple of millimetres this way or that.... All the angles had to be 5 degrees which made putting them into position a case of align then thump with a mallet. It glued and screwed somewhat messily as can be imagined. Once all the transom ends were set then came the task of making sure I had two mating faces for each assembly. So, it was out with the jack plane and the sanding block. After "a little work" I had two mating faces and some glue to spread between them. The joints were first "pulled up" with a couple of G cramps and then locking screws driven through each face. Just to be sure NOTHING moved in the six hours that it would take for the glue to set I placed paving slabs over the glued assembly. This would stop errant feet kicking it. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic26.jpg

After a suitably prolonged setting time (ie lunch until after tea) and having returned the slabs outside I am left with this: 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic27.jpg

regards 

ralph


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Looking good Ralph.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

A very ambitious project, Ralph... Progress is progressing nicely...


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

14: the intermediate Vector Boson 

After the hottest weekend of this year... This shows the start of work Friday night with all three modules completed and test positioned (inverted) for ease of movement. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic28.jpg

By 8 am Saturday The four posts holes for the initial section had been dug and cemented in. "Precision adjustment" on the height of the posts was achieved with "polite attention" from a 5Kg sledge hammer. I used Portland cement and Ballast on a ratio of 1:4 -but with the high temperatures of the day it was "green" by tea break at 11 am. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic29.jpg

Noon, The first section is in place on top of the (now set) posts. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic30.jpg

After lunch the second set of posts were dug and concreted in place. The impromptue G cramp worked well -it had a vise like grip too... 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic31.jpg

5 pm all the pieces are now in position and have been glued and screwed together and given a swift brush of Cuprinol. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic32.jpg

6 pm shower scrub and get changed. 7 pm father and son stroll down to the village pub and have a couple of pints each (Cola in his case) and a fish+chips supper. 
This ends the week of maddness. Now I have to catch up with all the stuff that I couldn't do whilst building the curve. Mow the lawn -do the weeding ETC!!! 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

15: Coefficient of expansion. 

6pm on the hottest Monday so far! Well after having showered and scrubbed and to be honest it was wonderful how COLD the water was. 
I did set out to do the smaller of the two straights as a trial. However I got somewhat carried away and now I have a track bed that goes from 
the corner to the end of the "infamous" manhole cover. I am now out of M4-75mm screws and Urea Formaldehyde glue and I am too cooked to 
go and get any -tomorrow will be soon enough. I had to do some pruning and moving (maybe they will survive???) but I cleared a route 
through the rose garden to the end point of the track work. 

The next shot shows the roughly constructed track bed plus the track that is going to go on top of it. It may seem strange to start off with 
a set of points -but that is the end of the "fixed" track work. There will have to be a removable section to clear the manhole to get "things" 
into and out of it.... 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic33.jpg

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic34.jpg

regards 

ralph


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

You're sure making great progress, beautiful work Ralph!


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Things are looking great.


I paged back through this thread and saw something I have not seen in years...


A Slide Rule









I remember using those in Electronics school back in the 60's 

I had one in a leather case that hung from a belt loop like Biker Chain wallets of today









I wonder what every happened to mine?

I can wait to see the next bunch of pictures of you progress 

JJ


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

JJ, 

The Slide Rule is a "Toison d'Or" and yes it does have a leather case. I have had it since I was 16. It is double sided and there a number of slides that can be fitted to it. I still use it as I am faster with it for certain calculations than with my HP. It has one slide for Chemical constants, another for Physical constants and finally one for Calculus. The round calculator belonged to my late father. It directly translates Radians to Chains -a true piece of Railway history. I did use it to design and work out the curve. When we were kids we would use it on a Sunday afternoon to try and beat my father at the calculations in order to win his piece of cake at tea time. We never did.... 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

16: Neutrino type effect. 

The shot below shows the partially assembled 2.4 metre long straight section. The cross members are staggered to allow M4-75mm screws to be "stitched" from one side directly into the other cross member. Thus the screw spacing is a 75mm screw every 150mm -plus the fact that each side of the spine (made from 24x75mm timber) is glued to its other half with Urea Formaldehyde glue. The sides of the straight are then screwed onto the spine work in the same manner. The M4-75 screws are Black Japanned the M4-50 are Bright Zinc Plated (BZP). 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic35.jpg

As you can see the plant moved "is not very happy"...... 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

17: Super symmetrical theory and the standard model. 

Well at the end of the days labours I have two straight modules fitted to the ends of my curve. I now need to fabricate at least a further seven modules. If I intend to do something really crazy then I will need a to up this a count of NINE -especially since everyone I have explained the concept to thinks that I am totally insane to attempt it.... 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic37.jpg

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

18: Six Degrees of Revolution. 

By the end of Saturday afternoon I had constructed a 4.8metre length of track bed. This was actually quite easy -but as can be expected moving it around rather less so.... This shot shows the underside of the 4.8metre section. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic38.jpg

The main problem with such a large length is that instead of sitting on four legs, it has to sit on six, as I space my legs at 1.5metre intervals. However once this was in position and some leg sawing later... We have this shot down the track bed. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic39.jpg

Now that I have a 4.8metre long "workbench" I can begin the task of fabricating them and simply sliding them off the end. The major problem that I have found is not one that I could really have foreseen. The ants in the garden are of two types -the Peaceful Black ants and the Wild Red ants. The boundary has been crossed and those Red ants are as nasty as I remember!!!! 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

19:The screw is the most powerful of the six machines. 

Tomorrow evening there should be three 4.8metre sections ready to be installed at the weekend. In the meantime I have been busy with building the "madness machine" that will be my secret weapon in the system. Originally I had planned for a "circum garden" type layout -but this would have been difficult due my late wife's wheelchair needs. So I "folded" the layout into a length of double track rather than a continuous single track. Part of the problem would have been turning the train around. A "Donkey Loop" or a "Wye" would have been far too large for the garden space that is available. Here in the Peak District the words FLAT or LEVEL have to be looked up in a Dictionary.... SO I opted for a standard OO layout trick a two track sector plate -but at Gauge '3' scale(!) 

This shot shows the M10 Nut on top of the 3mm thick 50mm sq plate. The "forge" as I call it is simply a piece of fire brick from the back of the old coal fire -it was very clean before I had it!

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic40.jpg


The nut has been silver soldered to the plate. This gives me the "captive nut" for the screw thread to work on. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic41.jpg

The next shot shows the beginnings of the handle, (a length of 3mm strip), being soldered to the screw thread, (actually an M10 x 200mm caravan trailer bolt!) It is balanced in a washer and the other pieces of steel plate stop it from wobbling in the blast from the torch. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic42.jpg


The last shot shows the rough completed device. The captive nut is on the right and the screw shaft is locked to the other plate by having the M10 nuts soldered to it. The winder is another M6x100 bolt (I have a few if those...) and it will "drop" into the steel plate fittings that will be screwed to the sector plate and the main track work.

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic43.jpg 



regards 

ralph


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Wonderful work Ralph! 

===>Cliffy 

Ps, did you mean Six Degrees of Freedom? Three translate, and three revolve... Not that it matters!! 
Love your philosophical bent...


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow. You've been BUSY!


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Thomas, 

Sorry I have not been "around" recently -but as you said I have been busy... Saturday Morning I need to go to B+Q to get some more Portland cement powder (three 25Kg bags), then fiddle and faff the legs to the vertical position and drop the base board on top. Three people will then madly attack the base board with power drivers and "Schraeder" M4x50mm screws. Those things look *EVIL* not unlike a standard screw but instead of a nice clean thread I swear that it has saw like teeth!!! Matthew says they should be called "Shredder" rather than "Schraeder" and I think he could be right.... 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

20: Focusing effect of a Lens. 

Well only one section of FIXED track bed has yet to be constructed. So I decided to make a short MPEG4 film showing where all the pieces would fit. Yes I know that part of the layout requires weeding and ground work -but for what it is worth here it is. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/cabbagep/coffee.m4v 

Typically I cannot do any work today since we in the hottest period of the year so far -and over the past three days it has rained!!! 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

21: Folding the fabric of space time. 

Grabbing the only time available for the garden to be dry(ish) in the past few days I have finished the last of the track base boards. This is (typically) the most difficult as it is the hinged flap and sector plate assembly. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic48.png

The hinge, (after much hunting in the hardware dept of Messrs Bennetts), is a heavy duty 300mm long 3mm thick garden gate hinge -but is only 50mm wide.... The "S" shape was produced by fitting the required length into the jaws of the vise and then putting a parvour brick on top and going "HNNNNGGGH" as it bent until it was square to the jaw top. There are advantages to being an ex Tae-Kwon-Do instructor!!! 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic48.jpg

The last shot shows the completed hinge and pin system. The projecting bolts are M6x100mm and as the hinge folds they poke through the drilled holes in the "transom" of the sector plate unifying both parts. To stop wobble there are two side bars with ABS rubbing strips on them which mate to two similar plates. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic49.jpg

This completes the construction of all the tack bed pieces. The next part of the work is to dig more post holes and then to move more plants around prior to attaching the bases to the (now) set posts. 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

22: Matter and Antimatter... 

Well as the English Summer is being very English Summer at the moment.... I have decided to unearth and start assembly of all the bits that have been waiting in wrapped packets and boxes. Originally it was going to be a single track "circum garden" type of layout -but folding it back into a double track "out and back" has produced a more interesting layout. The first packet opened was the GRS railway crossing gates kit. I know that I will now need a second one as I am now using double track -but it is on order as I type. 

The kit comes with a number of steel rods to replicate the steel bars of the original. Here in the first shot you can see that the two sides of the gate have been CA'ed to the other, sandwiching the steel rods between them in the pre cast grooves. The hinge pins are M2 bolts with nuts and washers as bearing surfaces. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic50.jpg

This shot shows the completed gates. After some fiddling with a file they do indeed fold flat to 90 degrees each direction. The tie bar is another length of steel rod folded and CA'ed into 2mm drilled holes at the top of the post and lower bar of the gate. The white metal oil lamps are pinned to the top of the gate with a 2mm stud. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic51.jpg

The last part of the days labours was to start assembly of the station roof. This made from more GRS kits. As above the "cast iron" pillar has a steel rod sandwiched between it and the "cast iron" truss work also has a slot for the steel rod. These project far out of the posts in order for them to make a good purchase on the concrete platform. The 13mm chuck and 3mm drill give you some idea of the flimsiness of the structure in it raw state. I toughened up the structure with 6mm sq pine strip and did a half lap joint for the trusses to sit in. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic52.jpg

Once the three posts and bargeboards had been assembled I let it set solid over night. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic53.jpg

As things are now progressing I really have to get down and do the really boring things like getting the signals made. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic54.jpg

As I do not have production line mentality making 12 of these is going to be a real chore.... 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

23: N-Spacial Mathematics.... 

After a weekend of doodling and painting planks with Cuprinol... The railway devolves into this signalling diagram. I am not too sure of US and Canadian signalling notation -so I am afraid you will have to accept "Empire" standards. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic55.png

Red track indicates locomotives moving in any direction between buffers and the "Limit of Shunt" signal -which has a YELLOW 'S' on it. There are two sets of signals protecting the level crossing and a set of signals before each set of points. As this is a "preservation railway" I could in theory use any type of signal that I like. However since "guests" who will be bringing their locos and rolling stock need to know what the signals mean -I have stuck to LMS upper quadrant semaphore. The signal gantries at Folkestone and Dover used to have a combination of English and French Signals for the crews loading and unloading the carriages and wagons onto the ferries. Not because of the fact that French locos were transported -but rather it told the French guards and crews what the English were about the do. I am going to put one of the combination English French signs because I used to see it regularly when I had to work in Folkestone. 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

24: Black body absorbtion spectra. 

The final parts of the base boards reach assembly. The tops of the planks have been planed flat and the gaps sealed with mastic (of various colours!). The adhesive was cooked in a tub of hot water to soften it to a brushable consistency and the first 40cm x 100cm strip of roofing felt laid on top. The air bubbles and blobs of adhesive were flattened out by a combination of rolling with an old paint roller and squishing with a wooden block. The edges of the felt were secured to the wood by "roofing clouts" tapped GENTLY through the felt and then whammed home with a lump hammer.... 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic58.jpg

The trailing edge of the felt also, (by Law), has to be nailed down and any further layers of felt can simply be stuck on top. This neatly hides the nails!!!! The next shot shows the main "dragstrip" with 10 metres of felt, 5 litres of adhesive and 1 kilogramme of roofing clouts later.... 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic60.jpg

This is a "close up". This shows how a typical "mid wars period" garden railway would have looked. It would have had a base board made of planks and stringers suspended on posts, with a roofing felt top, the woodwork would have been treated with Red Lead paint, (I have used Cuprinol Autumn Red -for obvious reasons!!!), and the roofing felt would have been fixed to the top with hot molten pitch and roofing clouts. Most of this look and feel I have been able to duplicate with modern materials with help from Henry Greenleys book "Model Railways" (I have the 1924 edition). What I need now are bull headed screws in brass and copper coated hardboard pins. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic61.jpg

regards 

ralph


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Ralph, you must have used a crooked piece of string theory.








Anyhow, looking good. 

Andrew


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Wow Ralph, glad you clued me into your posts here in Track section as I missed them. I've reviewed same and have concluded you indeed have been a very busy man this summer. Will stay tuned to this station to monitor further developments. Best of luck with your further physics of Locomotion. 

Scott


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

24: Dark Energy and Dark matter.... 

Well the last piece of roofing felt adhesive set yesterday morning. Despite the black drips everywhere I started to unload the "shed". I placed it all on the lawn looked at it took a deep breath and picked up my hammer and nails.... I could not get the correct type of nails despite trying a few iron mongers and specialist suppliers, one of them who politely asked if I was doing "Listed Building Repairs" (!) But I have M1.6x25mm twist thread nails -they go IN they do NOT come out -EVER!!! Not the ones I wanted -but close enough... At the end of the evenings labours I had nailed in 28 pieces of track and one set of points. By Lunchtime today I had completed the run from the House to the Summer House and put in the other set of points. The folding plate and the sector plate are both "populated". The problem I now have is the fact that I have run out of pre-made track.... So, it is back to the shed and the track making Xylophone. 

But this is what I was aiming at for all these years. The classical look of yesteryear. White metal chairs supporting brass bullhead rail in "creosoted" mahogany sleepers. The white metal chairs secured to the sleepers with brass pins and it is all screwed to the decking with decking clouts (equivalent!) winding through an English rose border in the warmth of an English summers evening.... 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic62.jpg

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

25: THAT Law.... 

Quote: 

"A way to "secure" the track without fighting the laws of physics (trying to screw it down so it cannot move)" 

Unquote: 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/cabbagep/cake.m4v 

*Q.E.D* 

regards 

ralph


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I fear you may find that unless you plan for and ALLOW the track to move, it's gonna move anyway and will move in the least desirable direction.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

With all due respect, I don't see how a video shows that you have overcome the age-old problem to handle the expansion and contraction of rail and ties. 

Rail and ties move in the prototype due to the laws of physics... your rails and ties will attempt to move likewise. 

What were the details on how the track was secured? 

Greg 

hint: proof might be showing the track alignment at 90 degrees and at freezing.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Cool footage Ralph, what a lot of work you've done. Love the abrupt ending! 


I'm waiting for you to cover Ohm's law. In case you've forgotten, that's when, after all attempts have failed, ya sit on your bum, hold your thumbs to your forefinger tips, and start making noises like "Ooooohhhmmmm....". With practice, and sufficient trackage, you can get bubbles to come out of your mouth. 

As for Law #25, yeah, it's hard to secure track without securing it... Love your humor... But like Greg asks, how ARE you securing it? Or maybe you've already covered that in a past post?


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the tour!


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Mr Elmassian.... 

It is always amazing to me the amount that you do not read... "M1.6x25mm twist thread nails ". Yes every sleeper is nailed down at the ends and the rails gapped at 1.5mm and trimmed square with a diamond cutting disc. The track work was assembled at circa 27 to 32 Degrees Centigrade (an abnormally high temperature for the UK). Typical winter temperatures in the Peak district are -10 to -18 Degrees Centigrade thus giving a temperature swing of 50 Degrees Centigrade (rather more than the 32 Degrees Centigrade you specified). So far it has been subjected to 35mm of rain over 14 days. Yesterday I had it "looked at" by a member of Railtrak who announced it was "a good piece of track". As to moving like the original, most of the "Midland Mainline", some of the "West Coast Mainline" and all of "HS1" are made on the continuous welded rail (in 150m lengths) and continuous concrete slab process. Under the current planning "HS2" will use the same system. This means that there is no ballast and the rail is held to the concrete slab by "Panderol" clips i.e *it does not move*. This enables locos to move along it at speeds of 200kph and 280kph in the case of HS1. 

I live in the UK on the 57th degree north line, slightly east of The Meridian and 8 time zones away -not in California in the USA. 

This is Gauge '3' railway thus we do things DIFFERENTLY like; raised trackwork, plastic fishplates. no ballast, no track power, brass rail, white metal chairs pinned to wood sleepers. I could go on... 

But I have finished building it in the manner that works for UK conditions... 

Goodbye.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Ralph, did you calculate the linear expansion amount in the brass rail after analysis of the alloy for the temperature extremes of your local environment with a safety margin for possible climatic anomalies or... did you just take a wild funky guess?









Andrew


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Can you kindly point out where it says that every sleeper (which means tie) is nailed down at the end? Previous to your post that starts with an insult of 26 august at 8:54 pm. 

I read twist thread nails... it could say aardvarks frozen in liquid nitrogen, but still no mention of how often it is attached. 

Reading your post above seems to imply that "sleeper" means a section of track, unless you mean what you said literally, which is every tie. 

So, despite the insult, I'd still like to know. 

Greg 

p.s given your knowledge of physics, you are telling me that the coefficient of expansion of a slab of concrete is the same as steel?


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Andrew, 

Yes, I did a practical experiment -I put 10 lengths of G3 brass rail and measured their length at -18 Degrees Centigrade (I have a 3 large 4* chest freezers) the average cooled length was 912mm. The length of the hot track when plunged into a bath of hot water at 40 Degrees Centigrade the average hot length was 916.5. The normal length is 915mm. *Therefore I used a gap of 1.5mm in the fishplates*. The length of the fishplates is 20.25mm. 

regards 

ralph 

Mr Elmassian, 

If you have read the thread, you will have noticed the picture below.... 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic10.jpg

There in the open pages of the book, (Henry Greenly Model Railways 1922), you will see a chair screwed directly to the decking... *I have, as I have stated, used twist thread nails, (as used to secure roofing slates to the roof laths), one in each end of each individual sleeper or tie -if you prefer to call it that*. They were driven through 1.5mm holes also drilled into the end of each sleeper This involved circa 0.5 Kilogrammes of nails. If you care to read elsewhere you will remember that the "Design Consultant" for the benchwork is a commercial roofer. Commercially available G'3' sleepers (such as those from Cliff Barker) have the hole tubes moulded into the underside of the sleeper along with a central one for "stud contact". 

www.cliffbarker.talktalk.net/gauge3products.html

As to the last "question" I do *not* have to tell you that the co-efficient of expansion of rail is the same as the concrete slab -*because as we ALL know there are slip expansion joints at the end of each 150metre length*. This accounts for both seasonal variation in rail and trackbed. The concrete track on the WCML and the MML has been down since the mid 1960's. After 50 years it seems to be holding up well... 

No, the question you should really be asking is: "Why do I feel the need to ask questions like this?" 

Goodbye.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I figured you would have done something like that Ralph.







So you are prepared for a 40°C heat wave in England (38.5°C 10 August, 2003) and a big 4.5mm wheel gudunk next winter. I'm a bit worried about the rose thorns scratching the trains though.









Andrew


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mr. Brades: 

I have a 24" monitor, in 1920 x 1200 resolution. 

I blew up that picture and cannot see a screw through each tie to the decking, and I challenge anyone else to see it: www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic10.jpg . 

What an obscure and lame way to try to chastise me for not knowing you put screws in every tie. 

I did not ask about the twist thread nor the credentials of a roofer, all I asked is how you secured the track to your decks. 

A simple answer of "I nailed each one in 2 places" would have been fine, and civil. 

I don't need to ask myself why I ask questions, others had the same question, and actually it was Semper that asked the question FIRST about how you handled expansion. 

You really want to go to all this effort to try to embarass me? Son, karma has a bank account for you. 

I wish you well, but I do suggest you try to eliminate the kinks apparent in your video at each rail joint. 

Greg 

p.s. you claim your rail does not move (26 aug 8:54) , but then you claim there are slip joints every 150 meters (27 aug 3:16am). If it does not move, then what are the slip joints for?


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Mr Elmassian..... 

I believe you live in California, on the Pacific coast in a $3 million house and that you are VP of a Computer company... 

Quote: 
If it does not move, then what are the slip joints for? 
Unquote: 

They are there for the same reason that the gas mains and power supply routing are duplicated at right angles in several parts of California. This is due to the fact that the ground moves... In the case of the Midland Mainline and parts of the West Coast Mainline this is due to the amount of water absorbsion into the underlying clay and limestone. There are (also in California) mild earth tremors some approaching 0.25Richter -sometimes on an hourly basis. This is the primary reason why the University of Nottingham hosts the UK geological survey. 

As to the problems with your monitor maybe this will help. My son (aged 13) did it for you on his HTC "Wildfire" phone running Android and a free "app". I admit he has uploaded it to the wrong part of the server -but he used the address he knew. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/cabba...pic10a.jpg

As to going to "all this effort to embarrass you" -I am not... *I don't have any need to*. 

Goodbye.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, so a DIFFERENT picture, at much higher resolution.... NOT the same picture referenced above... so this is my fault? I don't have any problems with my monitor, but this is of course another attempted insult. 

This picture still does not show what you claim, fixing the ties to the baseboard.... it shows the chair fixed to the tie. No view of tie to baseboard and x-ray view showing the penetration. 

For those who really care to learn about what how/why to fix the ties to something: 

The never ending "debates" on how to control/fix G scale track normally revolve around the ties fixed or floating. Some revolves by allowing the rail to slip in the "spikes". Depending on the environment, different things may work, but 10 years ago, the philosophy was to try to control the laws of physics and lock every tie down. It did not work for most people. The next step was to try to eliminate all fixing between the ties and the rail, to allow things to "equalize", this failed also. When people started really understanding how the prototype railroads did it, they realized that the ties and the ballast worked together to spread the movement from expansion and contraction fairly equally, but the ties DID move. 

Later tracklaying to a completely solid base of a different expansion rate called for other measures that is true. The rail HAD to move in the fastenings, since the ties/base could not move in the same way. Thus things like Pandrol clips, and slip joints. But the rail indeed must move. 

My questions were simple and non-confrontive. I really wanted to know how you did it, since you analyze these kind of things in depth, and you also seem to do things differently. I thought I might learn something new. 

Unfortunately, the responses continue to show that despite all the insults, references to an expensive house (who cares), and other allegations, that until the question was asked, no one knew you fixed EVERY tie to the baseboard. 

By the way: you still have an error in your presentation, this picture shows what appears to be 2 screws fastening the chair to the tie. If this is what you copied, then you have FOUR fastenings per tie, not TWO as you stated. 

Based on that error, I'll just assume that the photos you are showing really have nothing but historical significance. I would have really liked to see a closeup of the track, since I cannot even get a straight answer about the fixing of the ties/track to the baseboard at least the picture would give the story. 

Done here, refer to the famous quote of Cyrus Ching. 

Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Mr Elmassian.... 

Obviously you are going out of your way to be totally obstructive... *Please read what has been written*. 

quote: 
every sleeper is nailed down at the ends and the rails gapped at 1.5mm 
unquote: 

quote: 
The white metal chairs secured to the sleepers with brass pins and it is all screwed to the decking with decking clouts (equivalent!) 
unquote 

There are TWO pins per chair and TWO decking clouts (spiral twist nails) this gives a total of; two 915mm lengths of brass rail, twenty four "creosoted" Mahogany sleepers, forty eight white metal chairs, ninety six brass pins, forty eight spiral twist nails per piece of track. If you study the images below 2.2Mb and 5.5mb respectively you will see that there are two brass pins holding the chair EXACTLY as in the book. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/cabbagep/100_1648.JPG
www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/cabbagep/100_1649.JPG

The stuff in the photo 100_1648.JPG was simply a couple of scrap lengths from the "bits box". The upper one showing the classically made "Greenly" track and the lower the commercial "Cliff Barker" slide on sleeper system. 

The main problem is that you are American whilst I am African. Here in the UK £2.1 million pound houses are given free to Somali refugees to live in. That gives you some idea of the respective differences in how we live. The ethos is different too. As to quotes I have always preferred Sun Tsŭ... However I must admit that this one is one is simply superb: 

quote: 
Greg -stop being a Greg. 
unquote: 

Goodbye.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Thomas!!!! 

I have spent about 5 minutes corpsed on the floor because of that comment!!! I will forever now see Greg Elmassian as a troll. I always cringed at the comments Sheila used to make as she sharpened her pencil with "Hugo" on the end of it for her case notes!!! 

regards 

ralph


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

An old but perhaps apropos joke -
A wife asks her husband, a computer programmer; "Could you please go to the store for me and buy one carton of milk, and if they have eggs, get 6!"

A short time later the husband comes back with 6 cartons of milk.

The wife asks him, "Why the **** did you buy 6 cartons of milk?"

He replied, "They had eggs."

p.s. I'm a programmer and I get the joke!


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I am not a programer but I get the joke anyway.


Not to Hi Jack this thread Watch this. It is so funny.


JJ 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YFRUSTiFUs


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Now, now Greg / Ralph. [please, let's quit this Mr. Brades, Mr. Elmaissian b--****. Can't we all just get along?]
Remember the "Golden Rule" of outdoor large scale model trains and track building...what works flawlessly at your house....IS WHAT WORKS AT YOUR HOUSE. 
I have been to layouts down here in the southern US where the track has been cemented down Solid, [f--kin' solid as Gibraltar], as in with CEMENT, asphalt, and other bonding agents in the ballast, with only minimal expansion joints or room for track to move under BROAD thermal variations . Theory says this should cause untold damage, incessant heartache, and constant sorrow. YET...in practice...I've seen that was not the case. I personally believe in free floating track that can move and morph all over the place....but that's just; WHAT WORKS AT MY HOUSE. 

Go for it Ralph!! We're enjoying your raised track efforts and lovely photos from the UK and look forward to reading about your results. If you have expansion issues...I feel most confident you'll be able to rectify those when and if they appear. 

"Model Railroading is Fun!" 

Scott


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I agree with Scott.


Go for it Ralph.

Post your Pictures as I enjoy them a lot.

If you Run into trouble Show is what happened and What you did to fix it. 

JJ


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

26: P, S, and Tau orbital shells. 

I have (so far) only used The Gauge '3' Society supplied White metal chairs brass rail and Brandbright supplied Mahogany sleepers. But as you can see in the photos above there are a number of commercial suppliers; Brandbright, Cliff Barker and Garden Railway Specialists (who term their products G64). I am now retired and I have to admit that my fingers are not what they used to be. The times of playing "Classical Gas" are now past and it is more "The Dodo's Dreams" that I play!!! So I have been investigating the commercial products. It has been great fun and very instructive to make track in the typical 1920's fashion. The picture below shows the guiding example of classical Henry Greenly style track with a chair and the rail locked to the chair with a wooden wedge. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic10a.jpg

These are still (amazingly) available from specialist suppliers -but I found that cast iron was far too brittle for "abilities" with a hammer... So I went for the softer white metal chair and (as instructed by the book) rigidly locked the chair to the rail by "punching" the cast in wedge on the outside of the chair to the rail. It took two hours to make one length of track.... Another thing to look at is the cost of the white metal chairs etc has gone up since I last bought any this would bring the cost of making "Greenly" track to £6.24p in white metal chairs as opposed to £5.32p with Cliff Barker slide on plastic sleepers. and since I am going to need at least 30 lengths of track the cost differences and the speed of construction are *persuasive*. I used up my last packet of 100 white metal chairs and to be honest I am not happy with how it looks. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic63.jpg
www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic64.jpg

It could be that I am now way out of practice but I have to admit that diabetes is affecting the feeling in my fingers and there isn't enough "feedback" from the pin push and toffee hammer to gauge impacts. 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Mail Daemon is busy today!!! 

Right I have had a number of questions -so I will answer them all here (hopefully). 

*Gauge '3' is NOT G Scale*. The term G Scale is normally used to define trains running on 45mm track and no fixed scale. Whilst Gauge '1' is normally 1:32 scale *Modern* Gauge '3' is 1:22.6 scale (1foot =13.5mm) although pre WW2 it was sometimes called 1/2 inch scale and some elderly plans and models do correspond to this.. 

There is some (justifiable) confusion as to the track width. Here in the UK Gauge '3' track is 63.5mm wide and gauge widened to 64.5mm on the corners. GRS sell their Gauge '3' products under the G64 banner. Confusingly the largest european group are Das Spur II Grüppe (The Scale 2 Association) who run any scale loco on 64mm gauge track. 

I personally use brass Bullhead profile rail as supplied by the Gauge '3' Society of code 250, the same profile is commercially available in stainless steel. The reason is I think that brass looks more 1920's, (a personal viewpoint), a plus is that fact that it can be silver soldered or bent quite easily in folding machine for the construction of Frogs, Wing Rails, Southern Railways signals and Buffer stops. Vignoles profile rail is available in brass, (there are rumours it may be available soon in stainless steel). 

The code of rail used varies between 250 (Bullhead) and 330 (Vignoles). 

What is the difference between Gauge '3' Society (G3S) and the National 2.5inch Gauge Association (N2.5GA)... Errrm Oh Boy is this dangerous!!! The G3S is an offshoot of the N2.5GA and most people have memberships in both, infact the current Chairman of the G3S is an active member of the N2.5GA. To put it simply G3 uses scale locomotives pulling scale stock in scale surroundings. The N2.5GA are locos built to any scale that pull a person around normally on a trolley with stirrups on a track gauge of 2.5 inches (63.5mm). The track is commonly vertical steel strip at Model Engineering Society layouts although the same brass Bullhead rail is used by both G3S and N2.5GA (at home) it is that tough . Could any of my G3 locos pull a passenger -I don't think so!!! It could be said that Gauge '3' is the largest Scenic scale and the smallest Model Engineering scale. Parts used in the construction of G3S locos are often sourced from the N2.5GA castings range -the cast iron wheels section especially. Although a lathe and a mill are not really needed they are however very useful in G3 loco construction and would be classed as essential in a N2.5GA loco build.

How common is it? Well I have to say that orthodontic braces for hens are more common!!! When I started out it could be said that the nearest Gauge '3' layout to me was in Leicestershireshire. Now there are two in Derbyshire -mine being the second.... 

How expensive is it? Track work is always expensive (circa £10 per length). There are few commercial suppliers of locos, GRS and Kingscale being notable. Most of the locos are hand built as are the rolling stock (from kits) and most of the plans are "classical" steam era stuff. There are some plans for modern Diesels and Electrics but they are few in number. So yes -*it is expensive* but still do-able under my £10 per week budget. There is also a lot of "We are waiting for stock to be made" so you need a good dollop of Zen.... 

I hope this has helped. 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well The Mail Daemon is working overtime!!! 

How are modern Gauge '3' layouts constructed? This depends on the builders "background" people coming "up" from Gauge '1' use the typical G1MRA ladder system -but built far more robustly. People coming "down" from 3.5 inch and 5 inch gauges tend to use a concrete sub-bed and transverse planks to nail the track to. Increasing though builders are turning to the recycled products of the company called "Filcris" 

http://www.filcris.co.uk/products/garden-railway-products 

They will laser cut curves and straights for the builder. The other Gauge '3' track in Derbyshire uses a 24 feet diameter circle supported on 50x50 posts. This is strong enough to take a Live steam Britannia and a few wagons behind it. 
This is an example of the use of Filcris and commercial Cliff Barker track work in Stainless Steel. 

http://lakes-pages.com/gauge3.co.uk/G3Forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1119.0;attach=1743;image 

The first Gauge '3' layout I saw is "Mainline Thurnby" in Leicetershire. 

The biggest one is EITHER the one under construction near Ely or the one in North Wales. At 38 metres long and 16 metres wide mine is rather small.... 

As requested: 

http://www.gauge3.org.uk/ 
http://www.n25ga.org.uk/ 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

27: Eutectic barriers. 

Well I had to wait for the seasons to change before I could post this. The Autumnal storms are upon us and it has snowed this afternoon (a little early this year). *BUT* The air temperature has dropped below 0 degrees Centigrade 

QUOTE: 
hint: proof might be showing the track alignment at 90 degrees and at freezing. 
UNQUOTE: 

QUOTE: 
Yes every sleeper is nailed down at the ends and the rails gapped at 1.5mm and trimmed square with a diamond cutting disc. The track work was assembled at circa 27 to 32 Degrees Centigrade (an abnormally high temperature for the UK) 
UNQUOTE: 

QUOTE: 
I put 10 lengths of G3 brass rail and measured their length at -18 Degrees Centigrade (I have a 3 large 4* chest freezers) the average cooled length was 912mm 
UNQUOTE: 

This picture was taken 6:30pm BST Wednesday the 28th of August 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic64.jpg 

This photograph was taken at 5:25pm BST Thursday the 10th of October 2013. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic65.jpg 

You can see the gap between the lengths of rail is now (roughly) 4.75mm. 
This means that each length of rail has contracted 1.265mm. 

This means that the rail has contracted 0.08mm per degree Centigrade. 

regards 

ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks a little larger than optimal. I normally recommend no gap in mild climates on warm days. 

In climates with more extreme temps the thickness of a credit card works well, which is .8 mm (just measured mine). 

Of course that does not eliminate your gap, but it would seem to minimize it. 

So you did not mentioned the temperatures that the 2 pictures were taken at. 

Also, I do believe these are not pictures of the same location, so one picture shows 2 gaps that are quite different, so I'm not sure what the comparison is to be. 

Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Ummm......I don't consider my locale to be extreme, but in winter, I set my six foot lengths at 1/8" gap. In the middle of summer, first really hot day, sometimes I get a sun kink. Slide the joiners back, run the rails past each other, razor saw as needed, and re-assemble. After that once cylcle and set, no problems. 
Credit card won't do it for me. 
TOC


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, I said in mild climates... ha ha! 

Remember that snow and temps near 100 would be considered extreme by people who live in Sandy Eggo! 

I started with larger gaps, but did not need them. I'm all free floating, so I don't get sun kinks, but I have a 60' straightaway that never gets sun kinks, but the track is loosely held in alignment, like JJ's method. 

Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Mr Elmassian, 

Please read what has been written in post 27. 

QUOTE: 
So you did not mentioned the temperatures that the 2 pictures were taken at. 
UNQUOTE: 

QUOTE: 
The track work was assembled at circa 27 to 32 Degrees Centigrade 
UNQUOTE: 

QUOTE: 
The air temperature has dropped below 0 degrees Centigrade 
UNQUOTE 

Now unless the converter program on my Mac is wrong, the temperature range *EXCEEDS* your specified parameters of 32 Degrees Farenheit to 90 Degrees Farenheit. 

As to choosing a different location since all the rails were gapped to the same distance (1.5mm) each one is as good as the other. 
Alternatively you might choose the part under the Gage tree that is not covered in snow. 

As to lengths of straight track work "The Drag Strip" is a 21m long straight of dual mainline and is all nailed down along its complete length. But then yours is *Gauge '1'* track 
not *Gauge '3'* so your rules and desires are not really applicable are they? Rather like someone using Gauge "1" track work being told how to lay track by someone with a lot 
of HO track... 

Until you have the experience that I have using Gauge '3' (over 12 years) and SM32 ( 25 years) in a UK climate *then* you may tell me what I am doing wrong, other wise keep your peace. 

Good Bye 

ralph


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Mr Brades


I find you data very interesting.

I had to read it three times before I noticed your temps were in Centigrade.

JJ


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

This is the last post -as I think that this is where MLS and I part company. 

Having found the section of track in the shot below 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic64.jpg 

This is the background shot. Note the time BST. The sun is now shining. The snow has melted. 
The thermocouple is giving the AIR temperature in Degrees Centigrade. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic66.jpg 

This is the close up taken a few seconds later. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic67.jpg 

The gap has increased from 1.5mm to 2.4mm the AIR temperature is 12 Degrees Centigrade. 
This gives the contraction of the rail to be 0.0225mm per Degree Centigrade. 

Goodbye


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry Ralph, I re-read your post. 

It does INDEED say the temperature dropped below 0, and if you read it over, you see that the second picture is dated on the 10th which COULD imply that you intend us to ASSUME that it was taken at 0 degrees. 

What was honestly confusing is that you stated the picture was at 5:25 pm.... in every country I have ever visited, that can often be the warmest part of the day, so this was not clear to me. Normally the coldest part of the day is overnight or very early morning, neither of which criteria is met. 

No one ever said what you were doing was wrong, and in fact I clearly mention that my suggestion would only minimize the large gap, not eliminate it. 

So, since I want to believe that the reason you are posting is to share your work and invite comments or suggestions do you feel that the gap shown in http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic64.jpg, which is almost 0.2", is beyond what your goal is, and does it affect operation if such gap is on a curve? 

Here, I have experienced problems on curves with a gap of that size, if the curve was under 8 foot diameter. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. your post of 10 oct 11:11 says the rail contraction is 0.08 mm/degree c, but your post just now of 11 oct 7:23 says 0.02 mm/degree c .... I'd say the inconsistency of the calculations/readings/procedure shows that the data is really not good enough to draw any conclusions. 






http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic64.jpg


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Interesting stuff Ralph. I had to go to Google.com/uk before I could find the Cabbage Patch site. My browser/ISP is on Charter.com though and...it sucks. Just ask anyone who uses Charter here in the States. 
I'm real interested in how this will turn out. Hope you will continue to let us know how having the ties tacked down on that hand laid track deals with temperature fluctuations. I only have basic experience with ready made track, nothing much hand made like what you are attempting but like I said previously I've seen both totally free floating track and track that is pretty well locked in place work okay. It looks like you are following a recipe that has been used for many years so I guess it should work. I recently visited a friend of mine who has a truly fine operating, track powered, garden layout with some long handmade switches etc. and I noticed that the majority of the tiny little spikes were loose from the ties and even though most of the spikes were noticeably loose from the rails and I could push them in with my fingernail...trains ran just fine in spite of it. 
I hope you will keep us posted as to how your rail system performs. 

S


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