# New DCC Lighting board



## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Hello All,

I'm designing a new G scale lighting board that I want to bring to market. I'm looking for input from all of you before I finish up the design. It will have over 10 lighting outputs, and they will be variable in intensity, and be able to produce any flash pattern known to the Railroading industry. You will be able to control, Ditch front, and rear, head, and rear lights, Cab, Marker, Billboard, or Number plate, Truck, and Step, as well as Walkway, Engine room, and any kind of light that you can think of for on top of the cab. These lights can be programmed to operate in an state. IE it only comes on when you move, or you stop, or when in neutral, or just sitting in forward or reverse. Basically a universal lighting board that can do more than you can think of. This will all come in at a price of around 50 bucks or less. 

So my question to you guys is. How much current, or how many lights would you like to have per output, and what voltage would you like for the Max voltage. Also, how many of you would be interested in a product like this, before I spend thousands to go into production. 

I thank you in advance, and look forward to your responses.

Loco Lee


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I want something like the FL4 for half the cost, 4 outputs, about the size of a nickle, 500 ma per output, all kinds of lighting functions. 

It needs to sell at half of what the well know and proven FL4 costs, so about half of $14.95, so $7.50 each. 

Seriously, you have popped up out of nowhere with all kinds of technical input and now you are designing DCC hardware. 

Who are you? Do you have a real name? 

And you do need to make it cheaper if you want to make one of these. And better. 

There's 2 inexpensive 4 function lighting decoders out there, I don't think you can compete with their pricing at all. You are welcome to try, I'd love to buy DCC stuff cheaper, wouldn't everyone? 

Regards, Greg


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Hello again Greg, 

Well, no I didn't just pop up out of nowhere. I've been giving clinic's at the national NMRA meets for two years, and I've been building electronic devices for the Government for over 20 years. I've been a model railroader for over 30 years. My name is Lee Wheelbarger, and if you'd like to know more about me than that, you may go to one of my website. www.lee-wheelbarger.com Locolees.com or you can go to the QSI website, and see that I'm the main guy that records the sounds for them, and I write the prototypical operations requirments for QSI, TCS, and about 20 other OEM's. So yes, I know all about the FL4. Also, you and I both know that you can't have 10 PWM outputs fon a board for under 20 bucks. 

Loco Lee


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry Lee, I do recognize your name... I guess I did not recognize the pseudonym, I apologize. 

Great, I have all kinds of requests! 

You may also go to the QSI website and see me and some of my articles/installs there too! 

Well, in my function druthers, I think higher outputs would be great, since there are still a lot of incandescent bulbs stock, and many decoders do not handle the cold current inrush requirements well. 

USAT locos tend to be in this category, in my experience. 

What might be very cool is to add a single high output output (input really, right, open collector to ground) to turn smoke units on and off for people like me who have the QSI unit and no extra outputs, and we know the lighting board won't be made. 

Decoder lock is also a must, although the mechanics of having 2 decoders on the same address will still befuddle many people. Maybe a simpler to use feature to accomplish the same? 

Also, how big a bribe to get you to record an RDC sound? I have a checkbook! 

Regards, Greg


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

That's OK Greg, 

Allot of people don't know who I am at first. Anyway, you're in Luck. I'm working on getting an RDC car in the next few weeks. It's a paperwork thing now, but if you know where there is another one, I'll be on my way to that one as well. Tony wants to have all the sounds in HD. I just finished an Ariso GP9,and I used the EMD 1st GEN with extra bass. I sealed the hole over top of the speaker, you know the one that goes up into the body. Oh My God! The thing Rocks. When I fired it up in the living room, it makes the fireplace screen rattle. I love it!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I will try that Lee. I have one of the prototype USAT plug and play QSI units in my GP9. 

(Of course I'm probably stuck at an old firmware version, I dare not try downloading the latest stuff into it!) 

Stock speaker? 

Regards, Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

The bi color LED's in USA have been the biggest problem I have seen. Also the incandescent lamps, being hard to handle the large load,and dropping to the correct voltage.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The prototype QSI usat unit I have actually sends DC of the proper polarity to these, nice solution with no changes by the user. 

You see many people rewiring USAT locos to handle this requirement of reversing polarity DC rather than a simple on off. 

Regards, Greg


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

It don't matter about the firmware. It will take the new stuff just fine. Get the Extra Base that Tony has, and stick it in there. It's bigger than the one it calls for. It's like a 3 inch, or 2 1/2, I'll look, and tell you. Anyway it kicks butt. It has a squar mounting frame, and I hot glued it down, and it fills the whole fuel tank with speaker. I'll have it at the National Con in WI in July. Are you coming to the 75th 

Loco Lee


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Hey Greg, I've got to jump off here. My email is [email protected] Send me your number off line, and tell me when to call you tomorrow. 

Thanks Loco Lee


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Hey Greg, 

Are you saying that they are using a lighting port to control smoke, by mapping the output to a different function key ???? 

Loco Lee


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

"Also, how big a bribe to get you to record an RDC sound? I have a checkbook! "

I ctrl-C 'd Greg's line before reading that you're working on RDC sound. Three cheers! Please don't keep us dangling.

jack


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

Well, the ARISTO site catalog says their Magnum has RDC sounds. Is the fact of just ANOTHER Aristo smoke story?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, not true... since they get their boards from QSI (and are no longer ordering them by the way), if QSI does not have an RDC sound, than neither does Aristo. 

Regards, Greg


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

Another reason why I will not buy their gear. One of many. After all, they are the ONLY LS manufacturer in the whole world. Just ask them...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

As a "superstar" member who "fell from grace" when I would not bend to "never saying anything negative about Aristo", and now banned from the site, I'm well aware of the attitude. 

Regards, Greg


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Yes Yes, It's true. Every bit of it. Down to the last word. I will be recording a RDC, and an Alco S2 for QSI on the 24th of this month, if not sooner. I will also be recording a Pacific, A 1939 Mack for the galloping goose. Plus I'm working on getting a Winton 201. We will also be at Cass all next week getting new recordings of all the Shays, and the Heisler, plus allot of new wisteles. If there is anything else that you want recorded please let me know what it is, and where there is one in operation. 

P.S. I already know that I can't spell. or type worth a $#!^, so please don't bother telling me about it. 
Thank you. 

Loco Lee


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

Lee, besides smoke control how about chuff timer for smoke and how about a firebox light that increases with power. Jake


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Good Ideas Jake, 

But there are legale issues about useing a processor to control Smoke. You can thank our friends at MTH for that one. They claim that they invented sycronised smoke with chuff. There are other pattens that pre date MTH's claim, but haven't been to court to prove it, so I'll stay away from that one for the time being. As far as Fire Box Flicker, Yes I can do that with the chuff, and am working on it as we speak. I'm also developeing two different flickers, so you can have two seperate lights in the fire box to make it look more realistic. There has been alot of effort in developeing this board, and it has been done by some of the best people in the industry. I'm sure that anyone who buys one will love it. It will do more than any other lighting board in the word, and I'll bet big money on that one. 

Thanks for your input, and I look forward to hearing more 

Loco Lee


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

That sounds great Lee. Do you know when they will update the 718 and 719 sounds for the 2-8-8-2 to the new files that are dated 2-21-10 on the QSI site. They are still the 2009 sounds. I beleive the Cape May Seashore Line in New Jersey has both an RDC-1 and RDC-3 in operation that you can record. Thanks Jake


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Thank Jake, 

You can ask Josh at QSI solutions and he can tell you about the 2 8 8 2. I'll contact Cap May tomorrow about there RDC. I have alot of friends in NJ, so I may be able to get that one as well. 

Thanks 

Loco Lee


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Cool stuff!

What Pacific are you recording?


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

"They claim that they invented sycronised smoke with chuff" 

I have an HO engine from 1959 that has sycronised smoke with chuff. I think that was before MTH was around. Of course it is a mechanical chuff, but it is timed to the driver wheels!!! 
Sold by AC Gilbert and built by the Mantua/Tyco people as far as I can tell. 

PS, still works to this day!!


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

How about recording a San Francisco cable car. There are quite a few out there. BAGRS provided them to attendees of their National, and not they can be purchased. 
What would be neat would be to go to the annual Cable Car Bell Ringing competition for the recording.


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## RIrail (May 5, 2008)

How about a recording of a Climax. There is one which pulls a tourist train at Clarks Trading Post, Lincoln New Hampshire.

thanks
Steve


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

The American Flyer (my current avatar, seen here with wheels a' rollin', smoke a' puffin' and chuff...uh...chuffin' on my mantle) dates back to the late forties. All original and synchronized, although the smoke bellows needs a bit of work - got some smoke coming out the cab. Ping pong table layout every Christmas for ages. They don't make 'em like they used to

Okay, the chuff might not sound exactly real, but, hey, what does a 7-year old know? Or care?


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Lee, I'd also be interested in the sync'd chuff and puff. As far as legal goes, no one can patent an "idea" they can only patent an implementation of an idea. If someone could patent an idea, then we'd only have one model maker, one car manufacturer, one tire maker, etc. There are others that have sync'd chuff and puff, look at Massoth for example. There used to be another, TAS. That is the unit I have and I like it but they've moved on to other things.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I believe they patented the use of a microprocessor to control the puffing. I read some of the patents, and was shaking my head in several cases that the patent office issued the patent. 

Read up about the BEMF story some time.. 

MTH does do more, i.e. no one has the locomotive motor control and synced sound and the synced puffing of the smoke unit.... that is indeed unique, even if we all feel that the components have all been there for a while. 

Regards, Greg


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not sure what the BEMF story is, but I know others have BEMF, including LGB. NCE is coming out with a BEMF decoder, it's on their website but not available yet.  Decoder


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There was a big suit and MTH had the rights to BEMF in model trains. That's why for the last number of years people could not explicitly say they had BEMF... apparently the suit is settled. You will see the abbreviation start to creep back into documentation for US companies. 

Manufacturers had to call it something else, and change how it worked (or at least the description of how it worked)... 

Regards, Greg


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## russfox (Apr 11, 2008)

Hi Loco Lee, 
I would like to see some trolley and track car (speeder) sounds. 
I'm also looking forward to the RDC sounds. 
Thanks, 
Russ


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## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

Loco Lee 

PLEASE have an interface into the current QSI board AUX port PLEASE.


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

Or being that QSI seems unwilling or unable to provide the 'promised' board maybe we should reverse engineer the interface!


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

What you need is a way to tap into the DCC part of the QSI system and feed that to a driver. Then, you can use an existing lamp driver. Of course, you could also use an AirWire receiver since it now puts out 3 amps of DCC. That would certainly run your light driver board.


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

Well I looked closely at the QSI board and it looks like its a bit too small to work on without access to lab equipment. However the interface out for the aux lighting is said to be a digital stream that would most likely be a minor problem to analyze. Bill, I think you know I am able to handle that! I am REALLY tempted. Yes, the Airwire is also a good choice but I am allready pretty well committed to the QSI and like what I have seen. I like the Airwire too, don't get me wrong, but you know me well enough to understand my stubborn, bullheaded, determined ways!. I am always ready for a challenge!!


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## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Bill Swindell on 25 Apr 2010 11:14 AM 
What you need is a way to tap into the DCC part of the QSI system and feed that to a driver. Then, you can use an existing lamp drive....snip....
*There is the RUB....The new pads on the Gwire board only *
*gain you DCC access to that rcvr. 

The "OR" of the two DCC signals to feed this ( or FL4 ) *
*light board is the 'pot of gold/LED/Light' **at end of the rainbow. *


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## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By alfischer on 25 Apr 2010 11:23 AM 
...snip..... However the interface out for the aux lighting is said to be a digital stream ......snip..... 

Top trace is from the Gwire DCC port. 
Bottom trace is from the Aux port.[/b]


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

Have you tried to crack it yet?


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## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

*No - Not cracked it, just R/D that came up with some observations.*

*On an NCE based DCC system, the Aux Output sits at +5 and produced a single burst*
*to ground of ~120ms for each button pushed.*

*With the Gwire DCC system, the Aux Output is always changing. When some*
*buttons are pushed, the output remains high during the button remained pressed.*
*Other buttons do not hold the signal high.....corn-fuz-ing 4 sure..

Both waveforms are not repeatable for the same button push...mmmmm....


*


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

Strange. To say the least. Maybe QSI has the code in the uP set up to keep us from it. The fact that the documentation shows even a model number for an unavailable aux board borders on false advertising. Another case like the normal vaporware crap from the computer industry.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, the design for the "light coprocessor board" was completed by QS Industries as I understand, but the cost to make the separate board with it's own lighting processor was deemed too high by QSI Solutions (please note 2 different companies). 

Yes, I agree QSI should probably take the part off their site, since it's not likely to be made. Calling it false advertising is a bit much, if you spoke to anyone at QSI solutions they would tell you what I just told you. 

Regards, Greg


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Hello All, 

Just to let you know that a Video of a QSI decoder I installed in a GP-40 made the ALL WOW International list. It's in the top 20 video's for Lighting Effects. The loco is a HO, but I post it here to give you guys a chance to see what the effects will look and sound like in your Large Scale Locomotives. 

http://wow-tube.ru/index.php?key=lighteffects 

Loco Lee


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

The Airwire replacement boards almost proof one thing - no standardization among any of these engine types. At least LGB had in the last few years only one Interface board (sometimes with more or less components), that allowed for a replacementboard instead. But we also experienced that that doesn't do the trick.

Point in case - we currently have a USA Trains engine open, and the running boards as well as the dual headlights are powered by the same two lead wire which goes to a common circuit board. If you care to turn running boards seperately from the head lights on, if you care to allow alternatively blinking headlights - just to name two Diesel features then you don't have access to them. As I mentioned before you need to cut trtaces on the front and rear lightin boards and run seperate wires. Now with the replacement board I didn't see any extra inputs?

If there are can you switch between blinking and and non blinking? Can you do high-beam, low beam?

Can you add additional lights, that are curerntly not part of the engine? I have seen on my cross country rides many ditch lights, staircase lights.... that I would love to model - if I would do American Diesel (as you might know I am an RhB nut).

Another topic, do you have (or do you care) about load dependant smoke generation (some of these engines have two smoke units in them).

And last not least, a seperate sound board not integrated into the circuits can't opertate based on the motor information and have optimally synchronized sound.

Now, on some of these topics it would be great to supplement this thread with detailed prototype lighting information. Most manufactuers have only a fraction of the lights the real engine has. 
- Is the blinking as seen on the previous HO video done by the headlights correct?
- But not all the time? - (only on railroad crossings?)
- What about the blinking roof lights, which engines have them, when are they used? (switching yard).
- When double, tripple ..... heading, which lights are On/Off on which engine
- Are engineers cabin lights allowed to be on while drivin, or does it make sense to program the decoder to auto-switch off the cabin lights once the engine moves?

Many more questions I presume, so anybody that wants to chime in and educate me.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, one board design will service about 5 different USAT locos, they have exactly the same form factor of the motherboard. 

There are some variations in the plugs for lights (2 versions)... CVP chose to make the plugs on the boards only match the specific loco, QSI put both types on the same board, so the prototypes I have fit 5 different USAT locos. This is just FYI, not "taking sides". 

In the case of the USAT locos, I believe they wired both headlights together in the F units, for example. I fully understand what you are asking. I think the first thing people want is to preserve the stock lighting capabilities, which are usually the color changing bicolor leds used for markers/classification lights. 

Also, the USAT wiring is common negative, so wiring it for common positive as required by virtually all decoders, would be a pain. So many USAT owners would be forced to re-wire their locos, and this is down to the circuit boards in the ends of the loco. 

I don't know why you want to add load-dependent smoke to this thread... (I LOVE the feature), it really has nothing to do with lighting, but VERY interesting to me. 

All very good points, and what is interesting to some today, will be the requirement for realistic operation tomorrow. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. Lee, that decoder is an HO decoder right? We need to stick what we can use in G scale.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Probably because I got the two threads mixed up


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, I just figured that out! ha ha! 

OK, smoke is completely appropriate on the other thread... just went there! 

You are too fast for me Axel! ha ha ha! 

Greg


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

OK LEE, When do we get the RDC sound file???


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep no controls for the G scale QSI. Lee trying to get folks hyped up here I guess. Later RJD


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