# Ed's visit to Copper Center Alaska



## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Ed sent the following photos of his visit to see Ron at Copper Center in Alaska:





































Alaska in July with Ron. That says it all.

Jerry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

How's Ron doing? 
I miss the history lessons.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, I miss his posts too, maybe Ed encouraged him to come back online. 

He left with no explanation, in fact his login is no longer registered. 

Regards, Greg


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

He still posts stuff over on Face Book so I know he's still around.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the lack of posts is because the tourist season is Ron's busy time, and the railroad is a part of his business. Posts will pick up again once the tourist season ends.

Just a guess,
David M.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dave, I think it's been over a year since he last posted under "blackburn49".... 

Regards, Greg


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay Gregg; 

You are close. So it's probably a "senior moment" for me. The most recent posting I could find for blackburn49 is on 06 Feb 2010. It states: "This summer will be the last opportunity to see the ALCANEX and the CRNW Railway in action. The plan is to shut down the operation totally in August and close the property just ahead of winter. There will be no more history-related threads, but it has been interesting." 

Kinda does sound like a farewell, so I guess we will all have to wait and see. I remembered from past years that Ron would not post much during the tourist season, but I did not remember this last post from Feb. 

Yours, 
David M.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ahh... did not find that one... it was hard to find his posts since I can't find his user name in the members directory... I had to search other posts... 

I feel better that this was just in February... I looked forwards to his progress and stories... we all love pictures don't we? 

Was his "name" still blackburn49 on that post? 

Regards, Greg


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Still had the "blackburn49" user name and an avatar with the Northern Lights. 

P.S. I'm still waiting for somebody to use the folks from the movie Avatar as their avatar. My bet is on Vic. ;>) 

Yours, 
David M.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi Guys,

I don't want to second guess Ron (I have not actually talked to him). I suspect we will hear more before long but in the meantime since his alias has been mentioned perhaps sending him an email may clear things up regarding his status.

Regards,

Jerry


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Sorry for the delay in my response, but I haven't had access to the internet for a couple of days. I did have a wonderful visit with Ron, and his railroad is truly awesome. Pictures just do not do it justice. This is definitely the height of the season for him. I'm not certain what the February message was referring to. He did not give me any indication at all that he was closing down his railroad operation. In fact he has started a major expansion that brings the track down to ground level (all of his railroad so far has been elevated). He has a lot of plans for the fall with his expansion, so it certainly doesn't sound like he is planning to shut it down.

I certainly understand your missing his history lessons. I had a most interesting and enjoyable time with him the three days were in Copper Center. We actually stayed right on his property, and we had a good time running my engine as well as running his trains. I am sure he would love to hear from many of you if you care to send him a message.

Ed


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

This was the first visit I have had with an MLS member on this property since Sandro Schaer came up in 2005.  Before that, it would have been the Curmudgeon, probably about 2002 or so. Had a great visit with Ed. This is not an operations railroad, but it has enough features in it to make this medium-sized layout an interesting one to run. Thanks Ed, for taking the time to stop by. 


My regards,


--Ron in CC
 (click image for larger one)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nice to see you "back" Ron, we were getting worried! 

Looks like good weather! 

Regards, Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Ron, 
Good to hear from you and to know all is well. 
John


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Ron

It's nice to see your typing on the forums once again, hope all is well with you.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi Ron,

Welcome back to MLS. It sounds like you and Ed had a really great time together.

Regards,

Jerry


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

I miss Rons history lessons also, loved reading his posts, they were always the first ones I would go to.

Ron if you see this, please keep in touch with us here on MLS!!!

tom h


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By blackburn49 on 08 Jul 2010 09:21 PM 


This was the first visit I have had with an MLS member on this property since Sandro Schaer came up in 2005. Before that, it would have been the Curmudgeon, probably about 2002 or so. Had a great visit with Ed. This is not an operations railroad, but it has enough features in it to make this medium-sized layout an interesting one to run. Thanks Ed, for taking the time to stop by. 


My regards,


--Ron in CC



Hi Ron,

I have to ask...

Ed looks like he is having so much fun running with a remote in one hand and a camera in the other - obviously not looking ahead...


Did he trip on whatever it is that is sticking up out of the ground just in front of his right foot?










I'd ask Ed but he would probably lie about it.









Jerry


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerrys RR on 09 Jul 2010 09:23 AM 



Hi Ron,

I have to ask...

Ed looks like he is having so much fun running with a remote in one hand and a camera in the other - obviously not looking ahead...


Did he trip on whatever it is that is sticking up out of the ground just in front of his right foot?










I'd ask Ed but he would probably lie about it.









Jerry


  Looks like Ed is heading right into that vent pipe on the raised leach field. This artificially raised area will serve as the contact point between the elevated railroad and the ground. Ed's locomotive is backed up to the end of the mainline at a point called Sulphur Springs, which is the historic end-point, MP 31, of the Klondike Mines Railway. The loco is resting just inside the beginning of a large wye that will be constructed at ground level within the next few weeks. 







Ed's location & location of his loco relative to the track plan. 


Ed missed tripping over the vent pipe, of course.


(click image for an even-larger view)


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi Ron,

This apparently is where you are going to ground level. Is that correct?










I am curious when many of us as we are getting older are moving our layouts above the ground why you are heading toward ground level for your expansion?

Regards,

Jerry


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Ron 

I'm really glad to see you posting here on MLS again. 

While there may only have beed three or so members that have made it to Copper Center,I'm sure that like me, there are plenty that would love to be able to make the trip and hopefully one day some of us will. Until that day, your posts about Alaska and the Copper Center RR has brought Alaska into out lives and we are all thankful that you shared with us. 

Randy


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeez Ed, Thats a long drive just to run your engine.







Nice pictures of Rons RR, Looks like you had fun


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerrys RR on 11 Jul 2010 02:29 PM 
Hi Ron,

This apparently is where you are going to ground level. Is that correct?










I am curious when many of us as we are getting older are moving our layouts above the ground why you are heading toward ground level for your expansion?


Jerry, If you recall, I wrote a thread on a proposed extension to my model railway, the historic Klondike Mines Railway, which ran from Klondike City, across the Klondike River from Dawson City, to MP 31, Sulphur Springs Wye. This is a narrow gauge shortline which cannot be properly represented without hills, streams, and at least one river--the Klondike. This proposal has been in the works for about five years. I first announced the plans right here on MLS in 2005, writing about it in more detail in 2008 on MLS. This is a direct extension of the existing elevated CRD model railway project I call "ALCANEX," Alaska-Canada Northern Expo Consolidated Railway System. 


At the Ed Knoebel steel bridge the ALCANEX mainline becomes the White Pass & Yukon Railway Extension to the KMR, which is also in line with what I had originally announced here. The line has finally reached that point where I am poised to build a wye at Sulphur Springs, which ironically is located on top of part of a sewer leaching field (no smell, of course). The historic Sulphur Springs had a wye, but this one will have to be larger in scale than the original one because I am turning 32-foot consists around at that point. Next year, circumstances permitting, I will proceed with narrow gauge ties, building farther into the KMR territory. 


The White Pass Extension is elevated to a perfect height for easily loading rolling stock. It is not too far from the ground-level area and will thus enable easy train set-ups. I have alternative uses for the line beyond the wye that involve extending the existing mainline well down the property. It would be excessively costly to do this by continuing to rely on an extension of the high elevated line. Ed can tell you how much climbing he had to do just to follow his train. Much of the line is seven feet above the ground. 


There is one other reason for the line ending up at ground level. By extending the line even closer to the ground I have been able to make use of the protective cover of the same building at three different levels: The original Town of Cicely level; the Cantwell RR Yard level, and now the North Sleetmute level where I have room to park at least two long consists under the same building. I definitely needed that space.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By blackburn49 on 11 Jul 2010 08:03 PM 


Jerry, If you recall...








Hi Ron,

Unfortunately my memory has become so bad I seldom remember what I read last week (really). On the news today they said those who drink tea (I do) tend to have a 37% better memory retention over those who do not. I hate to think how bad my memory might be if I stopped drinking tea!!!

Seriously though, I hope the great response to you posting again will convince you that your posting again here on MLS has been much appreciated.

I appreciate that it is probably hard for you to measure the level of appreciation for the amount of work you put into your posts but for many of us it is the knowledge of what others are doing and the history of real railroading that keeps us going in the hobby year after year.

Often when an old friend (I consider you to be an old friend) posts often, I (for one) tend to reply less and less not because I don't appreciate what has been written but because a bunch of "atta boys" can seem to detract from the flow of the story.

Welcome back,

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually Ed was chasing a run away battery powered train.







Just had to throw that in there for ED. It was good to hear from ya Ron. I know you are very busy as you are installing sites for full hook ups For RV's If I could ever convince my wife to make the trip I'd be there in a heat beat. Glade all is well and good to see a post from ya. Later RJD


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Some of my layout is on the ground. Some of my layout is off the ground. I will be 65 in November. I am afraid if I dont get up and down and keep flexable I may never get up.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

That' okay, John, I'm 73 and all of my railroad is on the ground. I do have to admit though, that each year, the "ground" gets further and further "down"!!!

And Ron, I think I'm going to have to come back to Copper Center when you get that part of your railroad that's on the ground is done. That is going to be really neat when you get it done. Regarding the climbing to follow a train around your railroad, yeah there is some, but it makes for a great operating session!!!

Ed


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## bottino (Feb 7, 2008)

My layout is pretty much at ground level, and this year for the first time it is getting hard to bend down. Actually, after putting in about a half ton of ballast last month, I am having siatic
pain down my leg, making me more convinced my next layout should be elevated. That said, it will be a lot of back breaking work to do it. But if my back survives, no more bending. 

Paul


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 12 Jul 2010 06:26 PM 
Actually Ed was chasing a run away battery powered train.







Just had to throw that in there for ED. It was good to hear from ya Ron. I know you are very busy as you are installing sites for full hook ups For RV's If I could ever convince my wife to make the trip I'd be there in a heat beat. Glade all is well and good to see a post from ya. Later RJD 
That is one nice thing about track power: When the loco falls off the track, it has sense enough to stop.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 13 Jul 2010 04:20 PM 
That' okay, John, I'm 73 and all of my railroad is on the ground. I do have to admit though, that each year, the "ground" gets further and further "down"!!!
 
And Ron, I think I'm going to have to come back to Copper Center when you get that part of your railroad that's on the ground is done. That is going to be really neat when you get it done. Regarding the climbing to follow a train around your railroad, yeah there is some, but it makes for a great operating session!!!
 
Ed
    
I only await delivery of 180 feet of line (that's up 60 feet from what I originally thought I needed).  Once I have that track, I will go ahead and complete the segment.  It should look something like the drawing below when completed by the end of this season (hopefully much sooner than that). 








The Sulphur Springs Wye represents the third level, which is the North Sleetmute / Sulphur Springs ground level. 

Some of you may recall that I had written about an alternative use for this area--the Alyeska Pipeline Valdez RR pipe storage yard.  I shelved that plan in favor of the original Phase III KMR, assuming I continue the tracks beyond the Sulphur Springs wye.  As it is now, the planned wye shown above neatly completes the existing point-to-point rail line.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Ron,
When I posted awhile back about large and noteworthy layouts, yours was one of the first that came to mind! It's great seeing the layout continuing to grow over the years. Each layout has something that defines it. Yours has the history of your area with an attention to detail that is usually reserved for N and HO modellers! It's great hearing from you again!


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 13 Jul 2010 11:02 PM 
Ron,
   When I posted awhile back about large and noteworthy layouts, yours was one of the first that came to mind! It's great seeing the layout continuing to grow over the years. Each layout has something that defines it. Yours has the history of your area with an attention to detail that is usually reserved for N and HO modellers! It's great hearing from you again!




Thank you, Steve.  The CRD layout has evolved well beyond anything I would have imagined when I first started it about a dozen years ago.  


The layout finally has the appearance of a mature railroad after a period of development which began in earnest in 1998. Here was the proposal I put together for 2006.  Compare this map with the one above.  









2006 was the year of greatest advancement for this model RR resulting in an entirely new mainline constructed in one season with a wye on one end and a loop on the other. Four years later, after the construction of the model town of Cicely, and an extension off of the East Loop to a lower level where a railroad yard could be established,  the model RR has finally reached ground level.  And that means I am finally facing Phase III head-on.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Completed the Sulphur Springs wye as as of July 30th. The wye is designed for turn-around of the longest passenger consists on the ALCANEX line, which means the extensions must measure just over 30 feet. With the separation between the switches, that results in a very large model railroad structure which is nearly 80 feet from one end to the other. The entry point is above ground, but the bulk of it rests on a 3-foot high mound which houses the septic & leach system. This wye extends over both ends of this mound but remains sufficient to hold the entire wye. The east end of the wye is reserved for future expansion to either Grand Forks or the Tonsina pipeline construction camp--neither one of which exists even in the planning stage as of yet. 

The wye rests entirely on treated wood built as a ladder support. The size of it, once completed, surprised me. It takes up a huge amount of space. This completes the mainline segment of my model railroad, resulting in a wye on both the east and west ends. The west end is the Chokosna wye--named after a whistle stop on the Copper River & Northwestern Railway about 30 miles west of McCarthy.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi Ron,

It sounds like you are making a lot of progress.

While you have probably mentioned it elsewhere I am trying to figure out the external dimensions of your layout. Can you give an estimate of the width at its widest point and the maximum length (straight distance)? Perhaps it would be easier to give the approximate dimensions of the frame of your drawing.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerrys RR on 01 Aug 2010 08:27 AM 
Hi Ron,
 
It sounds like you are making a lot of progress.
 
While you have probably mentioned it elsewhere I am trying to figure out the external dimensions of your layout. Can you give an estimate of the width at its widest point and the maximum length (straight distance)? Perhaps it would be easier to give the approximate dimensions of the frame of your drawing.
 
Thanks,
 
Jerry


The current area covered is roughly 200 feet by 90 feet with a periphery of 600 feet. I say "current" because it is still possible that the line will be extended beyond these bounds.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Ron it sure is nice to see your name online again. 
Congratulations on your living Railroad! Looks real good. 

John


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the dimensions. It makes it easier for me to picture it in my mind.

Jerry


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

The point where the track finally meets the ground @ the _CRD_:

_Sulphur Springs Wye_


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

View of _Sulphur Springs Wye_ from the east observation deck:


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

View of _Sulphur Springs Wye_ from the east end of wye:


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey Ron 

Is Snow load a issue on buildings in your part of Alaska?


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking great Ron


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

View of _Sulphur Springs Wye_ from the Cicely observation deck: 
  

Obviously, weed control will have to be integrated into this project. This will be a first. Until now, the line has run well above ground level.  The ladder supports at ground level will have a weed block set on the ground and the sections directly on the ground will be filled.  The segment  you see here with the heavy growth is roughly 3 feet above ground level, but the flora has already overtaken it. This will require considerable ongoing maintenance to keep the weeds down.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 01 Aug 2010 02:51 PM 
Hey Ron 

Is Snow load a issue on buildings in your part of Alaska? 

Not an issue. Snow accumulation on the ground over the course of a typical winter is 2 feet or less. I simply let the entire outdoor layout blow shut, leaving most of the rolling stock either in Cicely or the Cantwell RR yard immediately below it until springtime.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Somebody really has been busy since Ed's visit.

Jerry


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

That really turned out nice, Ron! It looks just like I imagined it when you explained to me while I was visiting you! I think I'm going to have to figure out how to get back to your place to see your new addition before we head back south!!

Ed


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 01 Aug 2010 04:18 PM 
That really turned out nice, Ron! It looks just like I imagined it when you explained to me while I was visiting you! I think I'm going to have to figure out how to get back to your place to see your new addition before we head back south!!
 
Ed




You are still in Alaska ? Long time to be in one place visiting. Definitely come on by again if you can. 


I really needed that wye to complete the layout. The point-to-point was simply too short going from the west wye (Chokosna) to the East Loop (Wrangell View Loop) and return.  I have been testing out the layout most of the afternoon and into the evening, moving rolling stock around that hasn't been moved in quite some time. One set of passenger cars has not moved since last summer until now.  The addition of the Sulphur Springs wye makes the run _far_ more interesting. While I was at it I found I had to make track repairs on the Chokosna wye.  The overall effect after these improvements is noticably more smooth and considerably more engaging than before.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 01 Aug 2010 01:08 PM 
Ron it sure is nice to see your name online again. 
Congratulations on your living Railroad! Looks real good. 

John 

_"Living railroad."_ Never thought of it that way before.  Apt description.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

First Run on the Sulphur Springs Wye, Aug 1, 2010:


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

East end of the _Sulphur Springs_ Wye: plenty of room for the longest train consists


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

West end of wye: Same passenger cars, different locomotive: each wing of the wye extends about 32 feet from the switch.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Entering the wye and heading toward the west wing: S
  

Some minor adjustments to the switches and track were necessary. The tests were successful. 



( All the images are clickable to a larger size )


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Do you have plans to fill in the area on etiher side of the track to cover the ladder road bed?


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 02 Aug 2010 04:01 AM 
Do you have plans to fill in the area on either side of the track to cover the ladder road bed? 
All of the area sitting directly on the ground will be filled after a weed cover is in place. I am going to do some experimenting on the east end first to see if what I have in mind works well. This is not a priority but it will almost certainly happen in conjunction with the Phase III project where I begin construction of the model town of Grand Forks.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blackburn49 on 02 Aug 2010 12:05 PM 
Posted By John J on 02 Aug 2010 04:01 AM 
Do you have plans to fill in the area on either side of the track to cover the ladder road bed? 
All of the area sitting directly on the ground will be filled after a weed cover is in place. I am going to do some experimenting on the east end first to see if what I have in mind works well. This is not a priority but it will almost certainly happen in conjunction with the Phase III project where I begin construction of the model town of Grand Forks. 
Solution found.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blackburn49 on 02 Aug 2010 12:05 PM 
Posted By John J on 02 Aug 2010 04:01 AM 
Do you have plans to fill in the area on either side of the track to cover the ladder road bed? 
All of the area sitting directly on the ground will be filled after a weed cover is in place. I am going to do some experimenting on the east end first to see if what I have in mind works well. This is not a priority but it will almost certainly happen in conjunction with the Phase III project where I begin construction of the model town of Grand Forks. 
Most of the ladder support which sits directly on the ground, such as the section seen here, will be concreted in place. Then, in some areas, the ground will be built up around it. In other segments, the bed will simply be left raised. Most likely I will be doing some experimenting with the concreting process later this summer. Meanwhile, I will be underlying all of the grounded portions with a weed blocker that will also serve as a base for the concrete work.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

One of my favorite consists is the Milwaukee Road doodlebug with its accompanying combine trail car AND a signature Milwaukee Road bay window caboose. Since I don't have any MILW freight consists, this is the only way I can utilize the MILW caboose.
 I found that a side benefit of the west wing of the Sulphur Springs wye is that I now have an area where I can wash the passenger cars, including this one, which have gathered dust as they all do over time. I spray on some diluted Simple Green, the lightly hose them off. The locomotives are pulled forward first to prevent water from entering the electronics. This is the first time I have had a convenient place to wash these cars off. It works out very well. 
 In the case of the doodlebug, I found that it was not necessary to separate it from the rest of the small consist, and I was able to wash _all_ of this short consist in place.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blackburn49 on 03 Aug 2010 01:59 PM 
One of my favorite consists is the Milwaukee Road doodlebug with its accompanying combine trail car AND a signature Milwaukee Road bay window caboose. Since I don't have any MILW freight consists, this is the only way I can utilize the MILW caboose. Hmmmmm... Ron, it looks like you came to the PCSRR and "borrowed" my Doodlebug and Heavyweight.









That is a very nice looking consist


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 03 Aug 2010 03:45 PM 
Posted By blackburn49 on 03 Aug 2010 01:59 PM 
One of my favorite consists is the Milwaukee Road doodlebug with its accompanying combine trail car AND a signature Milwaukee Road bay window caboose. Since I don't have any MILW freight consists, this is the only way I can utilize the MILW caboose. Hmmmmm... Ron, it looks like you came to the PCSRR and "borrowed" my Doodlebug and Heavyweight.









That is a very nice looking consist

So I have heard. I purchased this one as a track tester model. I run it first thing every spring, without the trailing cars, once the snow has been cleared to find any faults in the track after seven long months of winter abuse. So far, so good. 


Of course, if I ever get around to it, I will be installing those decals you sold me on these units and others to distinguish the set (for the rest of you, see logo below--THAT'S the one !).


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ed is due here tomorrow to try out the layout one more time now that the Sulphur Springs wye is in place. With that I will start another thread to better explain the updates. I do hope to hear from a few of you when I do that. It is okay. I do not bite. Well, not too often anyway.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I can definitely agree that Ron doesn't bite! I wouldn't be going back if he did! 

Ed


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Man Ed you sure you don't want to stay in Alaska? Ron could surly provide for your needs. Oh BTW I just sold your house in FL.







Later RJD


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 04 Aug 2010 03:36 PM 
Ed you sure you don't want to stay in Alaska? Later RJD 
Are you _sure_ about that ?   Winter is _NEVER_ very far off in interior Alaska


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

[/i]

*The track inspector arrives to test the new Sulphur Springs Wye @ the CRD:*[/i]


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

*The Great Northern Hustle Muscle successfully and easily works through the wye as it heads toward North Sleetmute*[/i]
 *The GN engine moves through N. Sleetmute, then passes through a sharp curve on the way to Cantwell.*[/i]


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

WOW!!! I can't believe Ron posted pictures already!! I have to say, the new wye works just great! I was teasing Ron this afternoon. It takes about 5 minutes to go completely around my mainline at home at a modest speed. At about the same speed, it takes over 15 minutes to complete the loop here on Ron's railroad. Later, after Ron posted the above pictures we added some freight cars to the Great Northern SD45, and it worked it pretty hard for over an hour. You'll notice one of Ron's pictures was of the SD45 heading up toward Cantwell. We had to be very careful on that run as that is up by Denali, and we had to keep a lookout for the Alaska Railroad trains coming by, as they have the right away!!

Please RJ, don't sell my house in Florida!!!! The gal who is house sitting won't have any place to go, and besides, all my trains are there inside the RV garage!!! Please don't sell them!! You have to admit though, that picture of Ron's with the snow on his railroad looked pretty cool! A quick run with a snowplow, and you could have a great day of running!!!!

Ed


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

_*Ed checks out the switches at the upper level near the east approach to Cicely before the GN Hustle Muscle reaches the model town. *_
  *Here's Ed racing to keep up with his locomotive as it races down the Cold Pass Route. *[/i]   _Finally, the engine reaches the west Chokosna wye where it turns around for the return to Cicely: first test run: _[/b]_SUCCESSFUL_[/b]_ ! _[/b]


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Ed's Route @ the CRD: *[/i]


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

_Ed is getting ready for a second run from the railroad yard area in Cantwell/N. Sleetmute, late afternoon, 4 August @ the CRD: _[/b]


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

My goodness, Ron. Ed goes back so far that his images are in black and white...


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Stan, that is what happens when you are "older than dirt"!!!! We had a good run last night (you know, it never gets dark up here in the far north!!). The GN Hustle Muscle actually had to do some real work to earn its keep. We had a number of freight cars that needed moving!

Ed


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Sure looks like you had a grand time, Ed. I'd love to get up there and run as well. What a great place to run trains. Even if the mosquitos might carry you off...


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 05 Aug 2010 10:34 AM 
My goodness, Ron. Ed goes back so far that his images are in black and white...









Out from the shadows we go . . . 
  _Ed pulls his freight consist out of N. Sleetmute_[/b]


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Moving Ed's freight consist through the White Pass Extension of the Phase II ALCANEX line: *[/i]


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Ed's freight consist heads toward the East Loop / Mt Wrangell Loop . . .*[/i] *. . . and continues on toward its destination of the south Cicely siding. Note the gathering rainstorm toward the east. *[/i]


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Ed moves the critical switch on the ALCANEX mainline at West Sleetmute:*[/i] _Ed's consist at the east end of the Sulphur Springs wye:_[/b]  *Ending the session at the South Cicely siding, late afternoon/early evening of Aug 4, 2010: *[/i]


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I have to say, this Ron can click pictures faster than anyone I know!! The pictures sure do show a good time being had, though. What an enjoyable railroad Ron has. I was telling him last night, he has created the best of both worlds. He has a HUGE mainline outside in the elements, but his town, and his incredible scale reproduction of the Kennecutt mine are all inside a building with windows all around them. His town is unbelievable with several streets, more buildings than I can count, plus numerous cars, heavy equipment, trucks, etc. And the weather doesn't even affect all of that!!

Regarding the mosquitos, Ron, you know they say that Alaska has considered naming the mosquito the state bird! I have to say though, in six visits to this beautiful state, I have not experienced any mosquito attacks as bad as I've gotten in New Jersey when we lived there for 30 years! Most of the time I'm not even aware of them being around. Yesterday, running the trains was a good example - no mosquito repellent, and I just was not aware of any being around.

Anyway, thanks Ron, for documenting a fun afternoon and evening yesterday. Now if we can just get the showers to stop, we can put your railroad to work again!!!

I am going to really hate to leave for Fairbanks tomorrow morning!

Ed


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

*In this section the ladder supports on the ground will be filled with concrete. The outside wall will also be banked up with concrete: *[/i]








Posted By blackburn49 on 05 Aug 2010 11:56 AM 

_Ed's consist at the east end of the Sulphur Springs wye:_[/b]   http://copperraildepot.com/images/MLS-visit/4Aug-C09.jpg


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 05 Aug 2010 12:21 PM 
I have to say, this Ron can click pictures faster than anyone I know!! The pictures sure do show a good time being had, though. What an enjoyable railroad Ron has. I was telling him last night, he has created the best of both worlds. He has a HUGE mainline outside in the elements, but his town, and his incredible scale reproduction of the Kennecutt mine are all inside a building with windows all around them. His town is unbelievable with several streets, more buildings than I can count, plus numerous cars, heavy equipment, trucks, etc. And the weather doesn't even affect all of that!!

Regarding the mosquitos, Ron, you know they say that Alaska has considered naming the mosquito the state bird! I have to say though, in six visits to this beautiful state, I have not experienced any mosquito attacks as bad as I've gotten in New Jersey when we lived there for 30 years! Most of the time I'm not even aware of them being around. Yesterday, running the trains was a good example - no mosquito repellent, and I just was not aware of any being around.

Anyway, thanks Ron, for documenting a fun afternoon and evening yesterday. Now if we can just get the showers to stop, we can put your railroad to work again!!!

I am going to really hate to leave for Fairbanks tomorrow morning!

Ed
_*
*_*It has been an excellent visit--and a learning experience as well. I hope other g-scale fanatics, uh modelers, take the opportunity to visit and perhaps run their own locomotive on this ever-expanding line. Mosquitos ? Hardly any this year. We have had far more of a problem with yellow jackets, though not so much within the bounds of the model railway system. 
*[/i]


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ed was out there on the tracks busy this afternoon running his train all over the place on my extensive track system while I was relegated to cleaning salmon out of the fish wheel. I'd have much rather been running trains, but the fish processing necessarily has to come first. Got to build up that winter food store.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Great pictures as always Ron. 

Now you need to strap a camera to the front of one of those engines and take us all for a ride around your railroad. 

Randy


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 05 Aug 2010 07:25 PM 
Great pictures as always Ron. 

Now you need to strap a camera to the front of one of those engines and take us all for a ride around your railroad. 

Randy 

I have been considering this for some time. Just hasn't been a priority.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I just love the term Ed chasing his train. You mean a slow walk right. BTW Ed the money I got for the house I used part of it to buy your house sitter a new house. Trains went to Jarrels house so you can visit them there. HeHe. Later RJD


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Well it is kind of a melancholy day today. We're now in Fairbanks, over 250 miles from Copper Center, and all I have left are some good pictures, and lots of fond memories of a great visit. Ron does indeed have one very impressive railroad. I think I could be there a week and still be learning new aspects of his railroad. As Ron said, it was truly a great visit, and an educational experience for me as well. Now when the weather gets cold, Ron, you gotta come down to Florida!!!!

Ed

Of course, after reading RJ's post, I guess I don't have a railroad anymore!! And I had such great plans for increased development of it!!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Ed if you stop by here on your way home you could run you one and only engine you got left.







.. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Damn, that looks like a lot of fun! 

I have a question to ask, been wanting to ask for a long time: What possessed you to have the multilevels, and so much track up that high? Looks like it was a lot of work. Obviously it was the right thing for your location. 

Regards, Greg


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 Aug 2010 01:30 PM 
Damn, that looks like a lot of fun! 

I have a question to ask, been wanting to ask for a long time: What possessed you to have the multilevels, and so much track up that high? Looks like it was a lot of work. Obviously it was the right thing for your location. 

Regards, Greg When I first contemplated purchasing the Copper Center Bar back in '95, the property consisted of a 34' X 36' tavern, an even smaller laundromat, and an old trailer court designed for 12 spaces, but about half empty of its original trailers. My plan was to eliminate the remainder of the trailer court over time, ultimately converting it into something resembling an early 20th century mining camp. This I have largely completed. 


The bar was a large open area with very little in it. I wanted it for an overhead model railroad that I was already developing in my Fairbanks residence. Indeed, with a business of such limited space, there was nowhere else left to build such a layout. I did not start laying overhead track until 1999. By the next year I was already laying the groundwork for the next step--an outdoor model RR. 









Above: bar building with laundromat in background
This outdoor segment would be an extension of my existing overhead, which itself was a historic model with elements of Kennecott and Chitina already in place. My plan was to separate the two by constructing a building dedicated to the Kennecott models while allowing room for a third model town, the historic community of McCarthy. Thus I would have three historic model towns (or at least significant structures from each of those localities)--all of them well above ground level as dictated by the 7-foot-above-the-floor height of my existing model. In fact, my plan was to go up to an even higher level for Kennecott in order to simulate the rise in ground from Chitina, MP 131 on the CRNW Railway, McCarthy, MP 189 and Kennecott, MP 195. Thus, a high overhead model railroad was the only way I could go. It never even occurred to me to go in the other direction--toward the ground--because Alaskan soil is not very compatible to model railroads or even REAL ones.







Above: The Kennecott model housing structure under construction in 2000. To the left is the existing bar, since 1996, renamed the Copper Rail Depot 

The point where that fence turns marks the area that would contain the Phase II model railroad that would be built in 2006-2010. The area to the left behind that fence would contain the beergarden that would be focused on the Kennecott model.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

It was only a few years after construction of the original historically-based model railroad that I decided I needed to build a second one with wider curves and longer runs in order to accommodate some 1:29 rolling stock I had acquired. I wanted this segment, tentatively known as the "Phase II GN line" (my original flag line was to be Great Northern), to be integrated into the bar as was the original one. The only way to accomplish that was to build a RR parking line above the existing backbar and below the original model RR. Here you see the wye that I built to accommodate that new layout: 
  The Phase II GN wye in 2006 Here you see my GN freight consist on the far end of the line that I constructed in 2006. Even with considerable drops in elevation from the bar, largely to follow the existing topography, it was still well above ground level.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thus, with the construction of that Phase II line, I now had a multi-level model railroad, as you can see below. You can see the Kenncott CRNW Railway through the glass on a trestle. Below it andrunning behind that aluminum tank is the Phase II line as it heads east (to the right). The vertical distance between the two lines at this point is about 2 1/2 feet. The original line was about 9 1/2 to 10 feet above ground level at this point, while the Phase II line maintained an average of 7 feet above the ground throughout its original configuration.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow, it all makes sense (I knew it would)... interesting how things evolve! 

Do you get frost heave on the supports in the ground? How deep did you have to go? 

Thanks for the pictures and explanation! 

Greg


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a closer shot showing the two lines, with the original line well above the newer Phase II line:


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 Aug 2010 03:36 PM 
Wow, it all makes sense (I knew it would)... interesting how things evolve! 

Do you get frost heave on the supports in the ground? How deep did you have to go? 

Thanks for the pictures and explanation! 

Greg The ground here is all riverbed. The ground water from that river is constantly moving at a depth of about 4 to 6 feet below the surface, although it undoubtedly freezes down below that level at times. With the close-to-excellent drainage, frost heaves along this line are not an issue: Difficult to image, considering that this layout falls inside the sub-arctic climate zone, but it is true.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is the second structure under construction in July of 2007. Like the first, most of its foundation sits on the surface of the compacted ground. 
The front part, however, is built over the old fence, which are anchored 2 feet below the surface--the deepest any of the supports go. Behind that line of posts is another set of supports that rest on pyramid blocks sitting directly on the ground. It is these blocks which support most of the weight of the front part of the building. You can see the track running along the front and resting on the old fence, all of which is anchored about 2 feet in the ground encased in concrete.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

All very interesting as to the construction. Even not having a problem with frost in your area is also a plus. Later RJD


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Ron, your historical story of your railroad has been absolutely fascinating for me. Having seen your railroad in person, and having you explain the historical development of your railroad in person, the pictures to go with the story really make it clear for me. In particular I found your wye behind the tavern to be most enlightening. You had explained that that was originally a wye, but I was having trouble picturing it with the additional track there now and the ability to travel right through that area with you big reversing loop that goes completely around your Kennecutt building. Absolutely fascinating.

And guys, I just wish Ron had some pictures of his actual Kennecutt mine complex inside the first building he added, right next to the tavern. It is absolutely gorgeous - huge and complex. As much as I admired his "town" in the second building, I was absolutely intrigued with the mining complex. It is truly a masterpiece.

Ed


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 07 Aug 2010 06:06 PM 
Ron, your historical story of your railroad has been absolutely fascinating for me. Having seen your railroad in person, and having you explain the historical development of your railroad in person, the pictures to go with the story really make it clear for me. In particular I found your wye behind the tavern to be most enlightening. You had explained that that was originally a wye, but I was having trouble picturing it with the additional track there now and the ability to travel right through that area with you big reversing loop that goes completely around your Kennecutt building. Absolutely fascinating.

And guys, I just wish Ron had some pictures of his actual Kennecott mine complex inside the first building he added, right next to the tavern. It is absolutely gorgeous - huge and complex. As much as I admired his "town" in the second building, I was absolutely intrigued with the mining complex. It is truly a masterpiece.

Ed


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Stephen Birch house; Superintendent Douglass residence; the Engineers' Staff house--and the top of the mill with the backdrop of the Bonanza Ridge--site of the three great mines of Kennecott. 
_"What an overpowering presence! "_ _Johnny Gakona*was remarking about the appearance of the fourteen-story mill building which towered above all else . . . _
_
_
_Below it was a series of stately buildings following a long walkway up a hill toward what appeared to be a log dam about a quarter mile away. . .
_
_
_
_In the rear meeting room on the main floor of the staff house the eight engineers living in the staff house assembled early, in full business attire, so they could discuss their matters of concern before meeting the higher-ups. W.A. Richelsen entered at five minutes to seven, looked over everyone, and nodded his approval."Gentlemen, we are about to meet our top bosses at the Stephen Birch house. We have not had an event like this since 1916. We must make a good impression with Birch and Jackling, as is quite obvious. Follow my example and my lead, and everything should go well. Dinner is semi-formal, so act accordingly. Watch Birch and Jackling ****very closely and then look at me before you say or do anything. Now let's head on out."The group left the meeting room, and moved down the short hallway and through the front room, which was the preferred common area for the staff of men and women who lived there. The women occupied the third floor. The front room was on the main floor in the southwest corner. It had two large windows on each wall overlooking the office and the glacier. The view from these windows was quite impressive due to the height of the staff house relative to the large buildings at track grade. Beyond the front room was the wide entryway and stairwell. The front door opened to a wide porch and a set of stairs leading one level down to the walkway, heading uphill. The rambling single-story Douglass residence was uphill on the left.The the right they could hear the roar of National Creek where a 30-foot waterfall plunged into a narrow gorge below the walking bridge in front of the Birch House . . . The nine engineers approached the front steps which led to the wide front porch. they were immediately let in by a very young-looking Japanese waiter, entering by reverse order of rank. . . The small lead glass window panes allowed natural light into the small vestibule. Beyond that was the large reception area and living room. . . The reception room featured the stunning copper ore fireplace which was well-known but seldom seen. Few had an opportunity to visit the Birch house. A large dining table had settings for eighteen . . . _

*--from Legacy of the Chief***NOTE 1: Johnny is my fictional Native character around whom most of the events occur. In this scene he has just arrived in Kennecott for this first time. Then the scene here shifts to the engineers. *

*
*
***NOTE2: Stephen Birch was the President and Daniel Jackling was a prominent board member of Kennecott in the year that Birch visited Kennecott for the last time in order to evaluate the long-term potential of the mines. The event described took place in 1924, although the specific details of this chapter are largely fictional. It was during this visit that Stephen Birch concluded that Kennecott was near the end of its useful life and that plans would have to be made to abandon these Alaska mines**. The house had his name attached to it because it had been built in 1916 for Stephen and his new wife Mary. They never used it because she never saw it, choosing instead to leave Alaska abruptly during that honeymoon visit, rather than continue on to Kennecott from the port of Cordova as Birch had planned. It was this event which caused Stephen Birch to loose interest in this mine, dooming it early on to a secondary status at best within the new but enormously-influential Kennecott Copper empire.*--RS





  






Above: Birch house; Staff House; General Office with a backdrop of the Bonanza Ridge
Below: The Bonanza Barrack replaces the National Creek & East Barrack in this model; in front is the hospital. At track grade is the electricians' warehouse. Above it is the general office.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Ron the Kennecutt scene is great. 
Either I've missed it in previous posts or you've been holding back. 
As usual your depiction of the real thing is impressive. 

Randy


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

The pictures are ALMOST as awesome as it is in real life, Ron. Thanks for sharing it with all of us. I paticularly enjoyed the explanations of each of the buildings and the excerpt from your book which I AM going to read!!! Now I'm looking forward to it more than ever. I never got Kathy over on the deck to look in on the Kennecott complex while we were there, but now she sees what I was raving about!!

Ed


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

My model includes all the buildings you see here except the ammonia leeching plant, which is the large building on the lower left.
This was how the mill site looked after abandonment but when it was still intact in 1955. Compare this photo with those of the model, including the background of Bonanza Ridge.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is the famous south-face view of the mill, staff house & general office as it appeared in 1955 when all was still intact. 
Compare this with the model images on the previous page. 

 In the late 1960s several buildings were destroyed, including the staff house, superintendent's residence, Stephen Birch house and the electricians' warehouse. Up on the hill the massive Bonanza barrack was also burned down.

Then the ground at both the Bonanza mine site and at the mill was disturbed due to a failed high-grade mining attempt which was doomed from the start. 

Here is how the south face of the mill appeared after all that destructive activity. 

It was after realizing how much destructive activity had occurred both at the Kennecott mill and minesites and along the railroad right-of-way that I decided to build a model of old Kennecott so people could see what had once existed but is now lost.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

This was my plan for the Kennecott layout when the building was still under construction in 2000, 
including the elevation contours. The plan and the model correspond exactly. 

 1) mill & concentrator
2) power plant
3) machine shop 

4) Bonanza barrack (takes the place of the East barrack & National Creek barrack) 
5) CRNW depot
6) electricians' warehouse & garage
7) hospital & doctor/nurse's residence
8) general office
9) staff house
10) Richelsen's residence
11)double track wooden trestle structure
12)Stephen Birch house


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is the layout of Kennecott as it existed in 1937.
The part that I modeled was the center section from the power plant in the north to
the southern end of the National Creek trestle. Compare this map to the preceding one. 

  Above: Detail of National Creek area of Kennecott 

Below: Full map of historic Kennecott as of 1937


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Ron, I think you know from our talks while I was visiting you how very interested I am in all of this. Your pictures and diagrams are absolutely breathtaking. What a shame so much was destroyed after the site was abandoned. At least you have it preserved in Copper Center, though!!!!

Thanks so much for sharing all of this with all of us.

Ed


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

It's always sad when A RR dies and its removed but thanks to folks like Ron it can live on in the miniature wold we live in. Great stuff. Later RJD


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## Paulus (May 31, 2008)

Impressive layout! I really enjoyed this 'online tour' on it!


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blackburn49 on 05 Aug 2010 12:35 PM 
*In this section the ladder supports on the ground will be filled with concrete. The outside wall will also be banked up with concrete: *[/i]








Summer has been elusive around here lately. I took advantage of one of those rare sunny days yesterday to pour concrete through the structural support of the east wing of the Sulphur Springs wye. Instead of a waterproof base as shown above I laid down a 30 foot section of porous weed block, added pit run fill for a base, compacted it, then proceeded to fill in the ladder for the entire stretch east of the switch. This is my experimental piece. It needs to sit over the winter and through spring break-up before I know how well this method I have employed actually works up here. I have never had on-the-ground track work before. All of the ground track have to be placed on a ladder-type support for stability. Most of that will have to be filled in either with concrete or crushed rock. This experimental segment will have loose fill placed all along its periphery up to and even above grade level once the concrete is set. This east wing of the wye is the segment which will ultimately continue on to become a part of the Klondike Mines Railway (the long-anticipated Phase III segment). 




Below: This is the original KMR narrow gauge plan I first showed here on MLS three years ago. At that time I did not anticipate that the Sulphur Springs wye would connect directly to the mainline Phase II model railroad. Because Sulphur Springs became the new terminus for the Phase II section, I had to construct a much-large wye than was in my original plan in order to accommodate the turning of the long consists that are typical on the Phase II part of the line (up to 32 feet). The remainder of the KMR plan shown here in some modified version may ultimately become reality, although that is still likely to be several years to completion. [/i]


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

You are really making progress, Ron!! I can't believe you got that entire east end of the wye concreted already!! I would say you are busy! You will put me to shame when I get home and start working on my railroad again, considering the slow progress i'll make compared to your progress!!

We are currently in Fairbanks still, and will be here until Thursday morning, probably. The weather has been nice, but haven't found any good railroads to check out up here!!!!

Ed


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 09 Aug 2010 10:59 PM 
You are really making progress, Ron!! I can't believe you got that entire east end of the wye concreted already!! I would say you are busy!  You will put me to shame when I get home and start working on my railroad again, considering the slow progress i'll make compared to your progress!!
 
We are currently in Fairbanks still, and will be here until Thursday morning, probably. The weather has been nice, but haven't found any good railroads to check out up here!!!!
 
Ed




This turned out to be a bigger job than I cared for, but once started, I had to complete it.  The south side and a part of the north side still needs to be banked. After looking at it today I am quite pleased with the results. I have already put the track back in place.  


As far as I know, there is no g-scale anything in Fairbanks yet. Once there is, I can no longer claim to be the "farthest north outdoor model railroad in the world, " but so far that statement still holds.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Was there a turn around loop at the orginal site? All the pictures I have seen didn't show it. Did they just shuttle cars in and out to load and had a storage yard some place else? 

There was this grain eleavator near the Red Lion in Portland that I would watch them unload grain cars on to ships. There was a loop and the cars were pushed throug the unloading area. Then as they came around the loop they would uncouple them and shuttle them to a storage yard till they came with full ones and pick up the empties.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 10 Aug 2010 06:49 AM 
Was there a turn around loop at the orginal site? All the pictures I have seen didn't show it. Did they just shuttle cars in and out to load and had a storage yard some place else? 

There was this grain eleavator near the Red Lion in Portland that I would watch them unload grain cars on to ships. There was a loop and the cars were pushed throug the unloading area. Then as they came around the loop they would uncouple them and shuttle them to a storage yard till they came with full ones and pick up the empties. 
No turn-around loop at Kennecott: no room. The track grade is very narrow there. 

I have a turn-around loop on my model that is hidden from view as a convenient way to turn the consists around. The CRNW Railway had a turntable at McCarthy, MP 190, where they would turn the locomotive around. It would then return to the FRONT of the consist, and BACK the 4 1/2 miles uphill into Kennecott. 

At the north end of the double set of tracks was a switch which allowed the engine to then return to the front of the consist. At the south end was that second switch. Some maps show two switches on the south end, which would make sense depending on the length of the consist. It could be as long as 40 (X 42 ft) cars or as short as six cars, plus one or two 65-ft passenger coaches. 
Location of the end of steel, MP 196, plus the north and south RR switches at Kennecott in 1938:


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blackburn49 on 09 Aug 2010 12:26 PM 
Posted By blackburn49 on 05 Aug 2010 12:35 PM 





Below: This is the original KMR narrow gauge plan I first showed here on MLS three years ago. At that time I did not anticipate that the Sulphur Springs wye would connect directly to the mainline Phase II model railroad. Because Sulphur Springs became the new terminus for the Phase II section, I had to construct a much-large wye than was in my original plan in order to accommodate the turning of the long consists that are typical on the Phase II part of the line (up to 32 feet). The remainder of the KMR plan shown here in some modified version may ultimately become reality, although that is still likely to be several years to completion. [/i] 












The above 2007 proposal is now obsolete. Based on my experience with these locomotives and rolling stock, larger curves are required. Thus, if I continue with the KMR Phase III project,
the tracks are more likely to appear as below. This plan requires room beyond the existing fenced boundaries in order to accommodate Dawson City, which may very well be eliminated from the final layout, if space does not permit: 

 All the other locations shown on the map are, in fact, historic ones which will actually appear on any final layout, assuming these plans move forward.

Most of these were little more than whistle stops, although Grand Forks, Klondike City and Bear Creek Camp were rather substantial. I am also considering continuing to Grand Forks with a turn-around at the historic wye location of Old Inn as a compromise to the full plan. Such a compromise leaves out Klondike & Dawson, but allows for the possibility of including Bear Creek Camp where four identical 0-4-0 saddle tank locomotives were briefly in use.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

A completion of the KMR would require a minimum of five switches, if I exclude Bear Creek, including two for the engine house. With Bear Creek, eight; with Dawson City still eight, unless I add the wye that shows up in the plans but was never constructed. That wye is not shown in this drawing. 

I would like to be able to do that. We will see how far this goes. 
The map below imitates the significant railroad features that existed on the historic KMR. Although there never was a White Pass extension, the original owners of the KMR planned to extend the KMR from Dawson all the way to White Horse--a distance of over 300 miles. This would have connected it to the White Pass and given the KMR ready access to the ice-free port of Skagway, Alaska. 

 Map showing the three segments of the new line: ALCANEX, White Pass Extension, and the Klondike Mines Railway--the narrow gauge segment. The White Pass extension is completed but will have to be upgraded to stabilize the new grade on the west end (up) of the wye. The east end is already stabilized and awaits additional fill to build up the sides of the new concrete rail bed.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Detail map showing the historic part of the KMR which included the Old Inn and Bear Creek (Guggieville spur) wyes: 
  The Old Inn wye is an essential minimum to any KMR layout since this is the wye used to turn the trains around that were returning from Grand Forks and destined for Klondike City or Dawson City.
The Bear Creek Camp wye is almost certain to be included simply because that spur was the home of four 0-4-0 saddletanks, of which one survives on display at Dawson City. It is number 4 of 4. The other three were shipped out. Engines 1, 2 & 3 on display were KMR, but this No. 4 is not KMR. The actual KMR No. 4 was returned to the White Pass during WWII and then stateside in the early 1950s. Thus, the numbering of the displayed locomotives does create some confusion.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Many of you have seen these images before, but for those of you who missed it, this is the line of four 7-ton 0-4-0 Porters at Skagway, destined for the Bear Creek Camp near Dawson City.
These were built specifically for the Detroit Yukon Mining Co. in April 1904, with serial nos. 3022, 23, 24, & 25 and numbered 1 thru 4. They came with 24 dump cars to haul pay dirt from the company claims down to the Klondike River where the ore would be washed for gold. Each of the side-dump cars was 10 to 12 feet long. The railway only operated as ore carriers during the summer of 1904 and during the spring and summer of 1905. After that the dredges took over.

However in 1909 the KMR ran a spur off its mainline to Guggieville (the Bear Creek Camp) to haul tailings. Apparently these locomotives were then used from time to time after that to haul large pieces of machinery for the dredges and also for firewood--same as the larger locomotives of the KMR line. That Bear Creek spur _had_ to be a "fun" line to run ! 
In 1913 DYMCo No. 3 was shipped to the Coal Creek line where it sat until 1969. It is believed the after the KMR shut down its line in 1913 the remaining DYMCo Porters may have used a section of that line for some time in order to supply the Bear Creek Camp. 

No. 1 remained at the camp until 1965 when it was purchased and shipped to Whitehorse for display. The fate of No. 2 is unknown, although it is possible it was shipped to the Alaskan-Gastineau Mine at the same time that the Shay on Coal Creek was shipped there. No. 3 eventually ended up in the hands of the late Alaskan rail fan Keith Christenson and _probably_ still sits near his home in Eagle River. No. 4 was donated to the Dawson City Museum.
I spent some time collecting my own set of identical LGB Porters (different paint schemes so far) for eventual use for this part of the Phase III railroad. It is difficult to imagine _not _building a model of that spur. This combination of two narrow-gauge railroads--the KMR and the DYMCo-- is almost ideal for modelling. It is just about the right size and has some interesting features, not to mention some great rolling stock.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Ron, is that one Porter still on display in Whitehorse?? I don't recall seeing it during previous visits, however we will be back there either late this week or next week, and I would love to see it if it is still there.

Ed


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 10 Aug 2010 09:10 PM 
Ron, is that one Porter still on display in Whitehorse?? I don't recall seeing it during previous visits, however we will be back there either late this week or next week, and I would love to see it if it is still there.

Ed
This is where you want to go: *Yukon Transportation Museum* / 30 Electra Crescent, Whitehorse, Yukon.
They have two 0-6-0 s from the Coal Creek Mine. Not sure if the 0-4-0 is still in Whitehorse, but someone there would know. Also, it appears that they
might have a g-scale historic layout there. Send me pictures of anything of interest you see there-_-lots_ of pictures. 

  (click for larger image)


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blackburn49 on 10 Aug 2010 11:08 PM 
Posted By eheading on 10 Aug 2010 09:10 PM 
Ron, is that one Porter still on display in Whitehorse?? I don't recall seeing it during previous visits, however we will be back there either late this week or next week, and I would love to see it if it is still there.

Ed
This is where you want to go: *Yukon Transportation Museum* / 30 Electra Crescent, Whitehorse, Yukon.
They have two 0-6-0 s from the Coal Creek Mine. Not sure if the 0-4-0 is still in Whitehorse, but someone there would know. Also, it appears that they
might have a g-scale historic layout there. Send me pictures of anything of interest you see there-_-lots_ of pictures. 

  

Check this out: 
"_The model trains _(at the museum)_ are made in Germany by Lehman Toys, at a scale of 1:22.5 or about 1/2" to the foot. Known as "G" scale, this is a very popular size to build garden railways, and there is a lot of WP&YR equipment available from several manufacturers_."

So there is a g-scale historic model setup at the  Yukon Transportation Museum as well !


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Two images of what has to be one magnificent g-scale historic model at the Yukon Transportation Museum: 







Look at this: We talked about that particular LGB locomotive, too, Ed !


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Ron, we were at the Transportation Museum on our way north to Alaska a couple of months ago, and they do indeed have a very nice G scale layout with, what looks like, all LGB motive power and rolling stock. I would not call it "magnificant", but it is quite nice. Of course, it doesn't take a lot to impress me. I like most model railroads that I see. The only trouble is that I'm a little jaded right now after experiencing your railroad, Ron! Needless to say it is MUCH smaller than your railroad being that it is all inside!!

Unfortunately the trains weren't running the day we were there, but I had remembered the layout from previous visits to Whitehorse. I can say I did NOT see any Porter there though. Not sure we will be stopping at Whitehorse on the way through the end of this week, so I may not get a chance to ask them if they know where the Porter is. If the people "manning" the desk are the same ones that were there when we were there before, I doubt very much if they will have any idea of where it is anyway!!!

Ed


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Makes me wonder what happened to the two 0-6-0s from Coal Creek that were listed as being there.

As to your second point, I have always seen my display--the historic photos and the operating model railroad--as offering a potentially far-better experience than most any museum offering similar things because the entire piece is actually one single and very personal work of art as opposed to a set of separate displays. I see large-scale model railroading as integral to a project that is much more than a model railroad which is one reason why this layout does not resemble anything else out there. In fact, the Kennecott and Chitina sections did not start out as a model railroad but as a re-creation of a significant historic moment. 
 Above: a part of the Kennecott model before it became part of a large-scale layout, from a Christmas card I produced in 1997. [/i] 

On the other hand, I like to keep up with what is going on in the LS world because the operating model has become the dominant part of the entire experience. I have picked up some invaluable information just by keeping up with MLS that has significantly helped me enhance this layout.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blackburn49 on 10 Aug 2010 02:14 PM 
Posted By John J on 10 Aug 2010 06:49 AM 
Was there a turn around loop at the orginal site? All the pictures I have seen didn't show it. Did they just shuttle cars in and out to load and had a storage yard some place else? 

There was this grain eleavator near the Red Lion in Portland that I would watch them unload grain cars on to ships. There was a loop and the cars were pushed throug the unloading area. Then as they came around the loop they would uncouple them and shuttle them to a storage yard till they came with full ones and pick up the empties. 
*No turn-around loop at Kennecott: no room. The track grade is very narrow there. *

*I have a turn-around loop on my model that is hidden from view as a convenient way to turn the consists around. The CRNW Railway had a turntable at McCarthy, MP 190, where they would turn the locomotive around. It would then return to the FRONT of the consist, and BACK the 4 1/2 miles uphill into Kennecott. *

*At the north end of the double set of tracks was a switch which allowed the engine to then return to the front of the consist. At the south end was that second switch. Some maps show two switches on the south end, which would make sense depending on the length of the consist. It could be as long as 40 (X 42 ft) cars or as short as six cars, plus one or two 65-ft passenger coaches.* 
Location of the end of steel, MP 196, plus the north and south RR switches at Kennecott in 1938: 
  

I was able to find a more historically-correct version of the above map. It shows two additional track switches--one of them just to the north of the track loading shed and the other one in front of the carpenters' shop. Thus we have four track switches at Kennecott.
Here is my reference map. Below this map is the revised version I have drawn up showing ALL the switches in their proper locations.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks Ron for the detailed maps. Gives me a idea for a mine on my RR.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 12 Aug 2010 03:51 AM 
Thanks Ron for the detailed maps. Gives me a idea for a mine on my RR. 
_JJ: I will be looking for your plans for your proposed mine site. Draw something up, even if it is wrong. Give us all a chance to evaluate it. _


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Sacred Manure Ron







I have never drawn any plans at all for THE NEW RIVER & WESTERN RAIL ROAD from the very begining









The only bad thing about flying by the seat of your pants are the landings









I have not work on the RR for about two months due to the Heat and the fact the Back Hoe has been down for new front tires. 

I have collected some more material ( rocks) to make the mountian and canyon for the mine to fit in. 

I will probably start again in Sept.

I will see what I can do. Maybe some pictures of the area and what I intened to do. 

JJ


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 12 Aug 2010 06:43 PM 
Sacred Manure Ron







I have never drawn any plans at all for THE NEW RIVER & WESTERN RAIL ROAD from the very begining









The only bad thing about flying by the seat of your pants are the landings









I have not work on the RR for about two months due to the Heat and the fact the Back Hoe has been down for new front tires. 

I have collected some more material ( rocks) to make the mountian and canyon for the mine to fit in. 

I will probably start again in Sept.

I will see what I can do. Maybe some pictures of the area and what I intened to do. 

JJ 

Well, JJ, it is about time you started. Since it is too hot to work outside, you can certainly work inside. So, put together a concept and publish it. Then you can modify it as conditions warrant. You will be amazed at how motivating this process is, especially when it becomes public. Go with the general concept, _then_ work on the specific details.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

And who knows, before you know it some crazy guy will come visit you and you'll get all kinds of attention on mls. Right, Ron????

Ed


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 12 Aug 2010 08:50 PM 
And who knows, before you know it some crazy guy will come visit you and you'll get all kinds of attention on mls. Right, Ron????

Ed

I strongly suspect that JJ's layout is far more accessible to most MLS members than is mine. Time to see what JJ's REALLY got out there, right folks ?


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

The longest train consist I currently operate is this double-header AmTrak, seen heading down the mainline, crossing the Ed Knoebel Memorial steel bridge as it heads toward 
Sulphur Springs. 

 The consist consists (love that word combo) of the Phase V & Phase III LBG Genesis locomotives, six LGB coaches, a relatively rare Aristo AmTrak baggage car, plus an AmTrak steel box car & USA AmTrak caboose with a total length of about 30 feet. Due to the design of the line, 30 feet is the practical outside limit for any consist on the ALCANEX layout. It is just long enough to appear impressive, but not too long for pulling such long, heavy passenger cars around the curves and through the #6 switches.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

This curve, which is within the White Pass Extension of the ALCANEX line, is one of the tighter ones within the system. I have had to carefully rework the track several times, at least twice with the kindly assistance of Ed, in order to prevent derailments in this section. It now appears to be all but trouble-free, finally. 
 At this point the AmTrak passenger consist has cleared the tight curve and is making a final descent into the fully-covered North Sleetmute area near the end of the ALCANEX line.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

North Sleetmute is the covered area on the level below the much-larger Cantwell Railway yard. N. Sleetmute will eventually be the storage area for the narrow gauge rolling stock that will ultimately operate on the proposed Klondike Mines Railway line that will be extended beyond Sulphur Springs. 
It also marks the end of the short White Pass Extension which connects ALCANEX to Sulphur Springs. 

 The AmTrak consist continues through N. Sleetmute, briefly slowing down as it passes the N. Sleetmute siding, before entering the first switch of the Sulphur Springs wye to the east.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

The AmTrack passenger consist approaches the second switch marking the east leg of the Sulphur Springs wye, which is the area now concreted in and awaiting a build up of fill on both sides of the raised area. 
 Note the lush natural vegetation that appears at ground level. It is one of the features I missed when the line was fully elevated. On the other hand, the grass and weeds will quickly overtake this section of the line until it is fully concreted in or otherwise "weed-proofed" within the track grade.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

The consist fits nicely on the east wing of the Sulphur Springs wye with about two feet of track to spare--as planned. 
 Until the fill is added to this segment--on each side, and in places built up right up to the tracks--this segment will not look right, but it definitely has a solid appearance and feel to it. Ultimately, almost all of the track on the ground will be filled in with concrete and a combination of sand and gravel over most of that for long-term stability.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

The consist, having reached the farthest eastern point on the ground, then backs up through the third switch of the Sulphur Springs wye. 
 The straight line part of the west leg of the wye is almost exactly 30-feet:


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

The AmTrak consist is now at the official farthest point on the ALCANEX rail line. It rests in the sun briefly before heading back to N. Sleetmute.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

The AmTrack consist proceeds forward through the third and first switch of the wye as it leaves Sulphur Springs behind. 
 AmTrak re-enters N. Sleetmute where it will be left parked until the next operating session. Next to it on the siding are five Northern Pacific coach cars awaiting a locomotive to pull them out of this remote whistle stop for a return trip to Cicely. This concludes this session.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Boy Ron it sure is good to see you back online! 
I always enjoy your posts, seeing your accomplishments and learning some history too. 

John


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Wow Ron, that Amtrak train sure makes it clear why your wye is as long as it is!!! Looks good going through that wye! N. Sleetmute brings back memories of when I was setting up my locomotive in there!!!

Ed


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

That sure looks great, Ron. The wye is quite effective. Very nice train.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ed Are you giving out the secret to good track. I guess I taught you right.







Later RJD


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

RJ, you know that will never happen! I was just taking lessons from Ron!!

Ed


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

The topic is still "Ed's Visit to Copper Center Alaska," and Ed is now long-gone, but I since we are now so close to the end of this season, I am continuing this thread until the line blows shut from the snow.


I am intrigued by the appearance of the high grass which has grown in at the Sulphur Springs wye because it very much resembles abandoned railroad line--one of my favorite topics. The train rolled through the heavy grass-growth without problems,
The grass is growing through the west wing of the wye, which was never filled in. I decided to take shots of the Great Northern Passenger consist, double-headed by AKRR 4000 & 4001robably because the rails are raised 4 inches to 6 inches and more above the ground. Next year this entire area will be filled in, but this is how the line will enter the winter, minus the rolling stock, of course.

In the background of the third shot you can see the fireweed going to seed--a sure sign that winter is no longer far off.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Once the AKRR SD Mac 70s have backed the GN coaches into the west wing of the wye, it separates from the cars so they can be washed in place, thus taking advantage of an unusually-warm day for this late in the summer here in southcentral AK. I have been using that wing for washing the passenger cars in place ever since its creation a few weeks ago. The GN coaches have not been cleaned since 2006 when they were among the first cars to be placed on the ALCANEX line.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Ron, 
That's pretty interesting concept...a wash rack for rolling stock...How many folks think of cleaning the rolling stock or at least getting the dust off of it? 

Chas


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

The washing of the trains works out quite well at this location.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

First of all, Ron, I cannot get over how much that grass has grown in the short time since I was there!! Second, I see that you got the LGB White Pass steam engine going. How is it running now??

Ed


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By eheading on 30 Aug 2010 03:30 PM 
I see that you got the LGB White Pass steam engine going. How is it running now??

Ed


Hi Ron,

I too would like to hear about your LGB White Pass including the apparent reference to problems with it. I've always heard the LGB/Aster White Pass was pretty fragile due to the additional weight of the metal vs the plastic of the regular LGB Mikes.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerrys RR on 30 Aug 2010 04:47 PM 
Posted By eheading on 30 Aug 2010 03:30 PM 
I see that you got the LGB White Pass steam engine going. How is it running now??
 
Ed


Hi Ron,
 
I too would like to hear about your LGB White Pass including the apparent reference to problems with it. I've always heard the LGB/Aster White Pass was pretty fragile due to the additional weight of the metal vs the plastic of the regular LGB Mikes.
 
Thanks,
 
Jerry


Regrettably, the first replacement motor for this Aster proved to be inadequate. I am still waiting for the larger motor to be mounted.  The drive train for this locomotive is in a shop stateside awaiting its fate with a larger motor, assuming it can be made to fit.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Ron, I sure hope it's "engine transfusion" is successful, because it is definitely one beautiful engine.

Ed


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 06 Sep 2010 09:37 PM 
Ron, I sure hope it's "engine transfusion" is successful, because it is definitely one beautiful engine.
 
Ed


So do I. It was really scary taking that engine apart in order to pull off the drive train and return it to the shop.  It has been sitting in pieces up here for a number of weeks now.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi Ron,

Was it the motor or the drive train that failed? It had been my understanding that the 1st generation drive train (U Joint) was the main cause of failure but I don't know for sure if the White Pass had the 1st or 2nd generation drive system. I bought a spare drive unit for my WP but I never run the loco because of concern it might fail and I might not be able to fix it. 

Keep us up to date on your results.

Regards,

Jerry


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