# RhB Allegra by LGB for 2012



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

For anyone interested in RhB - although no official announcement yet, from discussions I have with "Insiders" in Germany, a couple of pictures and postings on the FGB website (link below) and the latest Massoth Navigator icons (which now include the Allegra), it is pretty certain that LGB will offer the RhB Allegra as a new item for 2012.

No news on the one that Neule was initially having built by Steiner: Steiner had to declare bankruptcy and no longer exists; Neule announced officially that he had contracted another design/manufacturing house, but since then everything has just fizzled out.

A picture of the prototype and a few commenst (in German) are here on the FGB website:
http://www.fgb-berlin.de/galerie/details.php?image_id=5680

http://www.fgb-berlin.de/galerie/details.php?image_id=5681

The Navigator information can be downloaded from the Massoth website

Regards,

Knut


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

That would look really nice pulling the glacier express cars from LGB.

Does that engine actually pull them in RL?

Ron


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

On a site of typically "better" informed sources it says:

Pedro @cadosch
"As I have heard MLGB intend to manufacture the Allegra in 2013. However, how reliable this project is could not be confirmed. Certain is that MLGB will have reached a limit on how many paint job variations they can put out until they will have to do a real new model. Normal engines have been very well covered by Kiss and MLGB, so that the Allegra might be a nice project. What do you guys think....... LGB had alreadyonce produced the ICE/LCE train.......


Other opinions chime in, but what is one of the best comments is that the Allegra is relatively speaking a very detailed model and requires quite an amount of tooling, and the large windows will be a challenge to the required detailed interior. Somebody else suggested to paint the LCE in the Allegra collors









I say the motor blocks are a challenge to, Neule put a lot of work into the prototype. Obviously Neule is stuck right now. The project is highly ambitious, and shall not be handled lightly. Also many RhB fans are not into the modern period so to have a 2000 production run is a risky business. I estimate the modl costs (if done right) to over $500,000. That means @200 production you have just $250 in mold costs + other casts, wheels, motors, protoype development..... boxes, you can easily look at $500 - $800 cost of product *1.x margin *1.40 to reach MSRP. So realistically a 3 set Allegra should be at $1995 and if you only produce 1000 units it should be at $2,450. In todays economy 1000 - 2000 units at that price is quite risky.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I think that if LGB does it right, it will sell. If they cheap out and do a repaint of those ICE trains they'll be dogs like the recent Bernina cars. I saw the one at Neules this summer and it was quite large but in scale. One thing to remember is that the RhB have ordered fifteen(?) so they are going to be around for quite a while, and in that respect I think LGB would be wise to spend the money to do it right. If not, Kiss will likely pick up the slack. 

Keith


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Axel, thanks for mentioning that this subject has come up at the Cadosch forum. 
Pedro's source that he mentions is actually one step further removed from LGB than mine, he also sounds a bit more positive about this project than you do. 

I'm not going to argue with the numbers you posted - my feeling is that they are probably reasonable, they are somewhat on the light side compared to what LGB used to claim were their devlopment costs for a new loco but that was years ago and I imagine costs have come down. 
What I don't understand however, why would you question MLGBs financial capability to bring this product to market but not Neule's? 
I would think that Neule's financial resources are less than Marklin's, he had a setback with Steiner that I'm sure created some expenses he hadn't planned on - the "Neule" Allegra neede an R3 radius or larger which in turn would limit the market potential. 
All the risks you mentioned apply to Neule as well but to a larger degree. He obviously thought he could manage it financially and make a profit in the end. 

At Marklin, I think making this happen depends simply on the commitment of their top management team. The newly appointed Co-CEOis an LGB fan so the chances that this will become a product are pretty good, I believe. 

Anyway - if nothing else - a great topic. 

best regards, 

Knut


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

From what I have seen, watching all the LGB Club videos, Marklin TV etc., watching how they have been developing products the last couple of years I have every faith that if they make up their minds to build a new locomotive using new tooling they will do an excellent job. For example, on the new Saxon steam locomotive (the one that is two steam locos coupled back to back) they are taking a reasonable approach to the issue of tight corners: for those that have long radius curves, they can adjust the connecting bar close, and for those who want to run R1 curves, they can adjust it to suit. 
Further, their recent efforts on items like the 40920 rungenwagens and other RhB rolling stock proves they can do excellent detail for a reasonable price. 
I realize I'm a bigger red box fan than most, but I think they can pull it off. As for Neule, my gut feeling is that he will bail on that project after the Steiner episode, especially if he thinks LGB will do the Allegra. 

Keith


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Knut:

I must have mis-stated or you misunderstood me. I don't question MLGB's financial ability to pull the project off, I question if it makes financial sense.

Neule is a different story. There a basically only a few thousand dollar mold costs there. The are using laser cut flat ABS/Styrene sheets (You know the Krafthoefer principal) So they can pull of each low production volume for $500 cost of materials, $30,000 for the CAD designer and $500 - 800 assembly costs, hence the price of $4000 for the 3 car set. He has projected a run of 100 - 200 units and I believe he was thinking of making $1000 per set.

LGB will (should never) stoup that low to lasercut assembly components. All they did in their life is 3D injection molding. You see your friend in Germany (just written up in Gartenbahn Profi) makes nice individual models of interesting rolling stock based on the same styrene technology. He is probably not counting all the hours in CAD design, and he supplements with resin molds.

On Buntbahn is a Dutch guy that makes a lot of great stuff in Brass and he could even pull this off for $4000 and make a $1000 or so. But once you enter the injection molding business.... a totally different story.

That is the major problem in our hobby. The plastic is pennies, the molds a bucko bucks.... You may be right maybe with all the parts and seats and, and, and you look at at $750,000 or even more. The higher the number the worse it gets. And unfortunately no repaints, only renumbering. There are some softmodl technologies out there for run betwen 200 - 500 hundred, about 1/2 the price but very limited output. G-scale is between a rock and a hard place on that.

But tell you friend at Maerklin (or your source) I have figured out how to justfy the production. I am more than happy to share that information with them.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Axel - 
Seems every post brings up more questions. 
If Neule uses mostly only laser cut flat sheets and a few $1000 moulds, why has he not been shipping his Allegra since the Summer as he had committed? 
Even Summer 2011 sounds like a long interval from November 2010 for that type of model. 
Because of the time interval he quoted, I assumed he was also using injection moulding but using lower cost moulds for a smaller production run. 

Do you really think he will still come out with his Allegra and if so, do you have any insight what is causing the delay? 

Knut


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I was taking a closer look at the Massoth Navigator locomotive update, and I noticed that the RhB Allegra icon is in the line with non-LGB locomotives. So it's at the end of all the Kiss locomotives, despite there being two openings behind the last of the LGB items. That tells me that a) they put it there anticipating the already announced Neule product, b) Kiss is going to build one, or c) they didn't want to give away LGB's hand so they put it there instead. I believe the answer is a), since they can easily update the file and have never in the past put on an icon that wasn't already announced. So I think it's probably a coincidence that the LGB rumour has emerged at the same time. Fun to speculate, anyway! 

Keith


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

ZIMO has already the fullfledged sound project (by SoundDesign) and the MX32 image, so doesn't mean anything


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## Terry Baumann (Nov 26, 2008)

Keith ( CRR ) I tryed to order one of the Allegra units and I was told they are all sold out, some die hard RhB guy has preordered them all ......... could this be true ?? LOL 

Terry


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

LOL! 

You know me too well you enabler! 

Keith


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By krs on 30 Nov 2011 09:21 PM 
Axel - 
Seems every post brings up more questions. 
If Neule uses mostly only laser cut flat sheets and a few $1000 moulds, why has he not been shipping his Allegra since the Summer as he had committed? 
Even Summer 2011 sounds like a long interval from November 2010 for that type of model. 
Because of the time interval he quoted, I assumed he was also using injection moulding but using lower cost moulds for a smaller production run. 

Do you really think he will still come out with his Allegra and if so, do you have any insight what is causing the delay? 

Knut 
Well, I guess I'll answer my own question - not the one as to what was causing the delay but the first one.

Erwin Neuweiler, the owner of NEULE Grossbahnen in Switzerland, promised that the prototype of the Allegra his team was working on will be presented *next* week! 


WOW - talk about going from "no information" to "here it is!"

Not that this is bad - it's just rather unusual for anyone in Large Scale to do that.

Knut


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

My last thought to LGB bringing out the Allegra. I have for a long time heard poeple state "with close" connections this is going to happen or that. Point in case some of these folks told me that this new RhB car by LGB is coming next month and I heard that story than for more than a year - until it finally came.

I will be more than happy to see a good engineered LGB product bringing the Allegra (I'll even buy one) although it doesn't fit into my layout theme (Mixed green and red period) but who is there to judge.









If if LGB would announce this in February on Nurnberg toy train show we are looking at 2013 or 2014 for delivery, if done right. You remember the far "related" red Triebwagenzug in the 2009 and 2010 catalogs that never made it into production? Because there were not enough pre orders. And that was a very simplified version of the prototype. I sincerely hope this is not a repaint of an LCE train (like the Bernina Panorama cars). I also hope this is not a bait and switch (put it and cancel).

Keep the suspension coming....... We stay tuned.


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## Toney (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi all,

a bit more information of the preproduction Allegra by Neule can be read here:

http://www.lgb-neule.ch/allegra/allegra zum zweiten.pdf

and another one: 


http://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/jos...llegra-triebzug-von-lgb?limit=6&start=18#2212


In German only, sorry

Regards Toney 

Link added


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Brief summary of the German text (not a detailed translation): 

Yes - the Allegra will be produced! 
(Some comments why it was delayed and how the time was used to improve the model) 

Small production run of about five at a rime 

Details about the length, width and height of the model and prototype (Original) 
This version requires R2 radius, a version suitable for R1 is still being worked on 
Coupling distance between cars can be adjusted from 44 to 58 mm 

Weight of the "A" car - 4.5 kg (about 10 pounds) 

LED lighting throughout 
Bellows (suggestions they are real rubber) 
Pantographs are not automatic (I assume that means there is no motor to raise or lower them, not clear if they can be used for power pick-up in analogue) 
Digital version with Zimo decoder and Däppen sound, on request available with a different decoder 
B and C cars with ball-bearing chrome-plated steel axles with power pick-up 
3-point suspension, weight 300 grams each 

Details of the bogie (truck) equipped with motor: 
3-point support 
Weight 1100 grams 
1 Maxon motor 
All metal construction 

The original price (was listed as 3000.- +/- Swiss Franks) needs to be adjusted 
As soon as all the information regarding costs is available, the final selling price will be published. 
Allegra icon has been added to the Massoth Navigator 

The complete Allegra model can be viewed at our store


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