# New Aristo ball bearings for power pickup



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Aristo has announced a new ball bearing part number for apparently, the Aristo heavyweights:

*http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulleti...hp?t=14636*

It is not clear yet whether modifications to the sideframes will be necessary or not, but of course, it will change _how _power is picked up. Right now, there are brass "eyelets" in the journals, and they provide pretty good power pickup, even though it's not a real close fit between the axle and the eyelet. 

Basically you have a pretty good sized area of contact, the length of the axle "lying" in the eyelet.

What provoked me to post this is the following statement by Lewis Polk:

Dear Mike,

Ball bearings are great conductors of electricity and the several balls inside the race provide pickup points that are flexible and carry the power up perhaps better than the brass bushing. At any rate, it's an enhancement, not a detriment to power. We use several ball bearings in each gear box of our prime mover trucks.

All the best,

Lewis Polk

Well, it is not really true. Actually, ball bearings for power pickup have 2 weaknesses:


The contact area between a TINY ball bearing and the inner and outer races is VERY SMALL, it's just a small point of contact. The area of metal for the current to go through is very very small, and remember the power has to go from the inner race, through a tiny point of contact on a tiny ball bearing to another tiny point of contact to the outer race. So the contact area is much smaller than an axle tip touching it's entire length in brass (which is also a better conductor than steel or stainless steel).
Here's the important one... the high currents that are a result of the very tiny points of contact "funneling" all the current to this tiny space will PIT the races of the bearings over time and make it poor contact AND poor rolling conditions.
 So, for low current devices, the ball bearing pickup _might _work for a while, but they may go bad after a while.

In locomotives it is a very poor choice.

The funny thing is that Aristo mentions using the ball bearings in their gearboxes. This is true, but misleading, the ball bearings used in the Aristo "prime mover" gearboxes use CERAMIC ball bearings and DO NOT CONDUCT ELECTRICITY.


All power pickup goes through a single ball bearing pressing against the axle, as the ball bearings used on each axle are NONCONDUCTIVE. I suspect that Aristo changed the type of ball bearings used and added the single point of power pickup for exactly this reason.











So, before you go out and change your passenger cars to all ball bearings, be sure of what you expect to get from it. Reduced rolling resistance, great, better power pickup? Maybe not.


Regards, Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

I read this too, and am interested in this new item from them. If it fits their heavyweight cars, perhaps it will fit the old FA sideframes I have as well. That might help me get some use out of my new FAs before I eventually retruck them with updated power trucks. (Those are not available right now..). 

I have four cars picking up power from ball bearings, and my experience has been that there is no noticeable break in power resulting in 'flicker'. The snowplow has aristo ball bearing wheels, and three other cars are using single LGB ball bearing wheel sets for power pick up (two just for lights, but one car has power pick up to run the LGB cow sounds board). For whatever reason, the lights stay on all the time and the sound keeps going on the stock car with no breaks in power. That would be a big improvement for my heavyweights where I get a considerable ammount of flicker as the cars roll along the line. 

Perhaps it would be better to have the products in hand before we start reviewing them? I am more interested in knowing how much I will have to modify my equipment to make these work. It sounds like our regular metal wheel set axles will slide in to the inner race, therefore, it is still a sleeve situation. It is also not clear if the ball bearings fit in to the existing holes or if they will need some modification. By now, I have learned that when it comes to technical things, Lewis does his best, but he is not an electrical engineer, so some of what he says has to be taken with a grain of salt. Or a margarita. Or both.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, as I stated, but perhaps not clearly enough: 

High currents WILL pit the races of the bearings. Passenger cars with low current requirements will probably be fine. A locomotive? Well Aristo themselves changed from conductive bearings to non-conductive ones. That should tell you volumes. 

Ask anyone in the business about high currents on small bearings. Besides the definitive proof from Aristo themselves (otherwise why would they use non conductive bearings AND add extra components for power pickup?) 

Ask a bearing manufacturer... I did. Ask several installers... I did. 

So, this is not anything about the product in hand... it's about bearings and how they work. Aristo has no secret patent of some metal from outer space that defies how bearings work for everyone else. 

So, for high current applications, not a good idea, passenger cars, fine... I guess you missed my main point, that it is not a correct blanket statement that ball bearings are always better, and it's completely misleading referencing the prime mover, because the prime mover uses NON CONDUCTIVE BALL BEARINGS. 

OK, that has got to be clear now. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. I AM an electrical engineer.... class of '74 University of California, San Diego


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Seems to me that phospher-bronze flat strip wheel wipers were the pick ups the 'pros' used back in the 60's on HO trains... (seeems... because the date may be off). 

Why ruin BB's when simple wheel wipers should provide better pick-up. Too old for some to know? PB is a spring wire and can be soldered and pinned or glued to plastic trucks. They didn't slow the small ones so should have little negative effect on roling like the spring loaded plungers do. 

I think Aristo is merely expanding into after market markets to balance the spreadsheet with out any outlay, merely rebrand an item for another use.... and to suppliment weak sales of over priced steel wheels.... 

John


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Wheel wipers are terrible--they add a great deal of drag and make a horrible scraping noise. At least the wheel wipers on bachmann coaches do. I pulled those as quickly as I could. Also don't they tend to lose spring pressure over time? They might be ok in a loco, but in a passenger car? Especially a long, heavy car like the aristo passenger cards? No thanks. Similarly I have an aristo long caboose with the piston plungers ofr power ickup, and they add a ton of drag. I pulled them and put ball bearng wheels on



Greg I'm not sure why your post seems so irritated--Mark was not contradicting you, I don't think, and the subject was passenger cars, I thought. 


I suppose the brass bushing is the best option--low rolling resistance, good contact patch. They have worked well for me, and they are certainly cheaper than ball bearings


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

I was responding to this:
So, for low current devices, the ball bearing pickup _might _work for a while, but they may go bad after a while.

This indicates that you don't have any ball bearing wheel sets being used for power pick up for lighting circuits. I do and don't have any problems after 9 years (snowplow). That's all. Simply, the tone of your original post indicates that the product under review is not suitable for the purpose intended. 

As for current going through balls, I can see your point about the power going through the small point of contact, but what about the total surface area? In a regular ball bearing, there are typically a lot of balls to take whatever load. For conducting electricity, isn't it likely that with a ball bearing that has say, 12 balls, you would have as much or more contact surface area than a comparable sleeve? I wonder about the size of the balls in the bearings as well. They have got to be teeny tiny. 

I'm curious about how the axle and the inner race interface. If the inner race and the axle don't have a snug fit, I would thing the inner race would simply become a bushing and not roll on the balls. 


Mike, When I saw the price of these things, I could install ball bearings on a 6 axle heavyweight coach for $22 (MSRP). By comparision, ball bearings and axles would be like $93 (MSRP).


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree, they seem like a very good deal. I'm still not clear on how you'd do power pickup though. You would have to solder a wire to the bearing? Or would there still be a bushing? I'm looking forward to seeing how they work


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Greg 

I appreciate the insight and opinions you provide this forum. I don't view them as attacks on any manufacturer. It shows that you are thinking and some of us appreciate that. I for one can only play in G with nickels and dimes and I can't afford to spend any more on G than necessary. Several weeks ago I thought I was absolutely finished in G. That remarkably has changed for the better, thank God. And thank you for at least attempting to bring things into perspective so we can all have a better understanding of the value of some of these products. 

Nate


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

To everyone except Mark: Yeah I sound testy, I've been harpooned by Lewis on his forum because I did not own a TE when I reviewed it the first time. So this "you cannot review something unless it is in your hands comment is not new, it's irritating", just like being called a troll by Lewis on his web site (The post is there).

To Mark:


No, it does NOT indicate I do not have any ball bearing wheel sets in use, not by the rules of the English language and grammer, and not in reality.

You are in fact dead wrong on your assumption. 


In fact I do have quite a few sets of Aristo BB wheels used in several applications. More than you and more experience than you.


How often do you run your snowplow? This is not a good comparison, how about a lighted caboose, or passenger car? I have 8 Aristo HW cars, and several cabooses with Aristo BB wheelsets, and a track sweeper car with Aristo BB wheelsets. In addition I have/had AML and LGB BB wheelsets picking up power.

In low current situations they have held up ok... not great, but ok (want me to detail the bad points? I was being nice in my post... I'm trying NOT to bash Aristo)



Why don't you re-read my post carefully, I indicate facts and experience from myself and others... 





I never say "not suitable", I use the words MAY and MAYBE in the sentence you quoted... and if you are trying to. And if you are trying to extract "TONE" from typed words, you are making a mistake, YOU CAN ONLY TRUST CAPS! (yes, I'm po'd)


Another point was the misleading information on the Aristo site about "using them in the prime mover" where they are NOT used for power pickup, because the ones used there have NONCONDUCTIVE balls in them... As much as you hate "bashing" I hate misleading information proffered by a manufacturer, the president of the company no less. There's no reason or excuse for this. He has a room full of engineers, or an engineer down the hall.


And no, 12 ball bearings do NOT have more contact surface than the continuous "line" of contact of the axle in the brass eyelet..... 

Mark, please read and cogitate before responding.


I already said the ball bearings were very very small, the contact patch is extremely small.. .the large current density is the cause for pitting... 


You do not need to hold them in your hand, Aristo has no alien metal alloys to make their ball bearing any different than anyone else... and these are CHEAP, so they are not going to be as good as LGB, for example.

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I recently re-did two lionel atlantics, turning one into an PRR H-9 consolidation by using an Aristo Mikado block, and keeping the second as an Atlantic, following the tips on George Schreyer's and Greg's site. It's hard to modify the Lionel tender trucks to accept brass bushings, so I decided to use AML ball bearing wheels in the tenders, to improve power pickup. I_* completely buy the argument about pitting*_, but could not readily think of a way to add power pickup other than the plunger pistons, which would add a ton of drag and be difficult to fit. 

It's working extremely well rght now, adding eight power pickup points to each loco. They both run faultlessly even on dirty track. But the consol espcially will be drawing a lot of amps, as its usually hauling freight on a very stiff grade. I'm interested in seeing how they hold up. If after a while they lose conductivity/rolling ease, the I'll switch to plan B, whatever that is!























So far it's working extremely well


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You may be in the situation I am in with my sweeper car, which uses a dc motor. I had no other easy way to provide power. I use Aristo BB wheelsets.... it worked great for a while. Now it stutters unless it is rolling and even then it's not as good as it was. 

When I mentioned why to several people who have been in the industry for many many years, they all (independently) said "of course" and told me what was happening. I had not thought of it, but of course it made instant sense. They all pointed to existing locomotives and said, well, look at who uses the ball bearings for power pickup.... no one... 

I said, but ah ha! Aristo does.... then I pulled apart the "prime mover" and found they do not use the ball bearings for power pickup. 

Then I contacted 2 manufacturers of minature bearings, and they said "absolutely do not use the all metal ball bearings for power pickup period"... both said that under very light currents they might be ok, but any amount of current will pit the races and not only have poor power conduction, but the pitting will degrade the rolling qualities. 

So, I'm resigned to swapping in new ball bearings in my sweeper, and some other cars every so often. Will it work? "for a while" is my standard answer. Is it a good long term, permanent solution? My opinion is no. 

So, I have spares here, and it's time to swap out the sweeper ones... maybe I'll make a before and after video. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I've had them in some passenger cars for a while--with LED lights--and they have been working well. I'm assuming the small currents involved in driving 4 LEDs will slow the pitting down a lot

The AML BB wheels are a good buy in my opinion and work well. They are not as smooth rolling as the LGB or the Gary Raymond BB wheels, but they cost less than half as much


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By lownote on 10 Aug 2009 01:02 PM 
Wheel wipers are terrible--they add a great deal of drag and make a horrible scraping noise. At least the wheel wipers on bachmann coaches do. I pulled those as quickly as I could. Also don't they tend to lose spring pressure over time? They might be ok in a loco, but in a passenger car? Especially a long, heavy car like the aristo passenger cards? No thanks. Similarly I have an aristo long caboose with the piston plungers ofr power ickup, and they add a ton of drag. I pulled them and put ball bearng wheels on



Greg I'm not sure why your post seems so irritated--Mark was not contradicting you, I don't think, and the subject was passenger cars, I thought. 


I suppose the brass bushing is the best option--low rolling resistance, good contact patch. They have worked well for me, and they are certainly cheaper than ball bearings 




Why am I not surprised that a B'mann wiper might not be the best example, wherreas my statement;... that they didn't slow the HO stuff gets over looked.....
Set up right they DO NOT cause scraping and they can be adjusted for less drag, far less than a plunger (which I really dislike).

The wiper does not need stiff spring pressure on the wheel face, just contact, PB strips can be a lot wider than a wire for better contact and current capicty.

Yugo's were bad cars therefore all cars are bad.....


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

Wow, I didn't mean to get you all fired up! I agree that you don't necessarily need an item in hand to review it, but no one apparently has this specific item yet, and I am not really sure why anyone is reviewing them yet. Rather, it seemed like you were actually critiquing Lewis' comments, which is fine, too. It just struck me as more a venting post and not so much a technical review, as I have come to expect from you. The main reason I responded is because I know you to be able to carry on reasonable conversations without resorting to personal attacks. As I know you to like to deal with real experience, not just percieved, I replied to your post by quoting your statement with my real experiences. I am not really sure why you let that get you all excited and upset. Clearly, this product is different from the ball bearing wheels I am using. I appreciate your insight and research in this subject! Sorry if my replies got you PO'd. For the price, I might give them a try and let you guys know how they work for me. 

I completely agree with what you say about the misleading statements. That is not new, either. 

Back to more technical stuff:

A question about electricity:
Do electrons like to flow throught a single point or do they prefer an arrayed path? I am not being a smart ass, but am genuinely curious. Lightning seems to fork when it strikes, perhaps for the same reason? So perhaps even though it is a smaller surface area, the array points allow for better flow of electrons in a ball bearing scenerio versus a sleeve where there is only one path. Again, I don't think any of this stuff is 'new', not even 50 years ago was this stuff new... It sure does seem like I have more difficulty picking up power with sleeve bushings than ball bearing wheels.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Mark, 
I wonder if the lube in the sleeves blocks the current, while the balls push through it for better contact.... 

If larger wire can carry more juice it stands to reason that they like a bigger area to flow through. 

John


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Some lubricants seem to inhibit electrical contact more than others. I assume powdered graphite would be the best, but it doesn't stay put. On the advice of someone here I switched to synergyn assembly lube, which is a green colored sythetic oil. Works well, stays put, and seems to have no effect at all on electrical contact


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks, lube should be part of the discussion then. Is Lewis still pushing 'electrolube' as anything more than grease? 

Do some lubes cause pitting? 

Which has the best conductivity? 

Once that is established then all tests should conform. eh? 

Joe's experience with lube A and bearings B can't compare with Mac's lube X and bearings A.... 

John


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

And no, 12 ball bearings do NOT have more contact surface than the continuous "line" of contact of the axle in the brass eyelet.....

Dont be to sure about that. The rod (axle) is not in continous contact with the bushing. Just like a BB, only in small finite element of the rod axle is in contact, and it will pit also. You're assuming a perfectly round symmetrical rod and bushing, which is not possible. In reality the axle rod will have the same short coming as a BB race, which is the actual contact area an any give time is vanishingly small. I can remember modeling this way back in college as an example of the difference between theory and reality. It should be that the rod axle is better than the BBs in conduction, with the penalty of more friction. The real world unfortunately does not always fit the theory. 

another issue is exactly what are you buy the BBs for? Conduction or rolling resistance, or maybe some combination of the two. Even a pitted BB race can have better rolling characteristics than a plain axle rod. It totally depends on load (ie current, and weight on the axle) and there is no simple answer. I would suggest you test them, once you have them, before we draw any conclusions. 

John


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 11 Aug 2009 09:42 AM 
Thanks, lube should be part of the discussion then. Is Lewis still pushing 'electrolube' as anything more than grease? 

Do some lubes cause pitting? 

Which has the best conductivity? 

Once that is established then all tests should conform. eh? 

Joe's experience with lube A and bearings B can't compare with Mac's lube X and bearings A.... 

John 
This is another old wives tail...in reality no lubricants improve conductivity. In fact, they're insulators. There are manufacturers that keep selling greases to improve conductivity. Most of the greases sold as conductivity improvers are really oxidation reducers. Since oxidation severely reduces conductivity it can be argued that the grease increases conductivity. None-the-less, the grease itself is really an insulator, even when it has "additives" like silver or graphite. That means...if you add grease, you are reducing conductivity...but you ARE also reducing oxidation. 

An easy test to run is to stick an ohm meter into a can of grease...and see if you can measure anything other than an open circuit. If it is conductive, you should see close to a short circuit. I don't think you'll find that.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

The reason I installed the BB in my heavy weights was to reduce the drag so that I could pull all 6 with my LS. Trying to improve the lighting was not part of the equitation when the were operated on track power. Just made them roll so much better. If the new ones are anything like the old they are a pain to install and time consuming. I have no further plans to install BB in any other cars as this is money that can be better spent on other things. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

John, the point of this thread was the electrical conductivity, and Aristo saying that the ball bearings have better power pickup. The second point was Lewis reinforcing his position by mentioning that his "prime mover" motor blocks use ball bearings, which is misleading since they are non-conductive ball bearings with ceramic balls.

Dear Mike,

Ball bearings are great conductors of electricity and the several balls inside the race provide pickup points that are flexible and carry the power up perhaps better than the brass bushing. At any rate, it's an enhancement, not a detriment to power. We use several ball bearings in each gear box of our prime mover trucks.

All the best,

Lewis Polk


The topic is better conductivity with ball bearings, true or not...

I say not...


Regards, Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Greg, 
I understand that and stopped talking about another method. My nod to the Lewis statement was mine about electrolube, it's just grease. 

I would use a light oil, more often, than a grease in BB's. 

My last post dealt with the variables of lube and it's affect upon evaluations. 

One could negate the best bearings of all, with the wrong grease. 

How close to the ball diameter is the race part of the bearing, maybe there is an arc insted of a pinpoint. 

When counting ball contacts do the ones opposit the load, carry any current? Or are they tight all around? 

I think these are points that could be included in the main thread. 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry, my reference above was meant for John A..... I forgot more than one John here! 

Greg 

p.s. They are pretty tight all around, and not an arc but pretty much single point of contact, have to be to reduce friction, that is the "trick" in ball bearings, exactly what makes them low friction makes them susecptable to high current density.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11 Aug 2009 03:21 PM 
Sorry, my reference above was meant for John A..... I forgot more than one John here! 

Greg 

p.s. They are pretty tight all around, and not an arc but pretty much single point of contact, have to be to reduce friction, that is the "trick" in ball bearings, exactly what makes them low friction makes them susecptable to high current density. That's ok, I forgot that too.

So we need a magical lube that allows the ball to make contact and prevents pitting... ok I'm waiting! ...lol

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The problem is that there is no way to supress the arcing really, current density can be in the hundreds of thousands of amps per square inch (because the contact patch is so small), so very few metals or elements can handle that. Any lube would keep air away to retard oxidation, but the actual metal pitting caused by transfer from balls to race or vice versa cannot be stopped, not even in a vacuum... 

That's why high current devices use metal wipers with larger contacts. It was real interesting to talk to the ball bearing mfgs. about this, enlightening. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I just came across this thread - more or less by accident. 

But it interests me because I have heard the comment that ball-bearing wheel sets are not suitable for power pick-up as a blanket statement. 

In this thread, that statement is at least a bit modified by possibly making them acceptable for "low" currents - whatever low means, although bthe comment still is that they wouldn't last that long. 

What I'm trying to get my head around is: How are the LGB ball-bearing pick-ups different? 
I have used them extensively since they came out around the year 2000, before that LGB used brushes for power pick-up on their cars. 
Lgb has shipped tens of thousands of passenger cars with those BB-Wheels installed and there were only ever two problems I heard of - 

1. Years ago some wheels actually 'fell apart" - I guess the outer plastic cover wasn't tight enough, and 

2. Just recently, in the early LGB/Marklin days, there was a small production run where the conductivity was very poor - apparently because not enough (or the wrong grease) was used, depending on who you ask. 

There was never an issue with pitting, or the bb wheels not lasting or issues along those lines regardless what some manufacturers claim. 
Current through these bb wheels on typical cars is in the several hundred milliamp range - the highest probably in the large RhB dining cars with 4 bulbs at 30 to 40ma each plus all the table lamps which are wired two in series - total probably around 350 to 400ma. 

Knut


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Here is my 2 cents. The same person who introduced me to CRC 2-26 also instructed me to spray it on the wheel bearings as well as the wheel surfaces. I claim NO engineering expertise about this stuff, but my experience is that the power coming thru the pickups on my LGB ball-bearing equipped coaches is steadier than that on the Bachmann Jackson Sharp type coaches. And it got visibly steadier with the CRC 2-26 (no noticeable flickering of the interior lighting). I have many BB axles on freight cars but no powered applications. Also my new Rich Yoder EBT Mikado has BB wheels on the tender with electrical pickups to assist the engine's pickups, but I haven't run that enough to notice any deterioration of their power-handling capacity. 
Okay, since I haven't seen or touched the Aristo BB's, maybe this was really only 1.5 cents worth.....


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

But Greg...Geez, class of 74??? They did not know anything back then did they???







Did you study tubes?? Even I am not that old( class of 75)







, a whole different thing.

Jonathan/EMw 

Running trains since 1957


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, just transistors and early microprocessors, the 2002, the 4004, then the 8008, then the 8080, 80186, 80286, 80386, etc... 

But luckily, the understanding of current density and electrons has not changed!! 

No, did not study tubes at all, did have to design logic circuits with flip flops, unless teacher was po'd, then we had to design everything with nand or nor gates... 

Regards, Greg 

running trains since 1954... really... (I actually got "my" first train set earlier, but was not allowed to run it, ha ha!)


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Unless I miss something, doesn't LGB uses "swipers" in the sense that they have graphite brushes. We repair a lot of locos here and some of them have probably 5000 hours on them or even more. Hardly do we come across an "LGB" engine where the springs behind the brushes lost its power, and the brushes seem to last a very long time. And correct me if I am wrong but when I was a teenager and worked with electromotors, weren't their brushes out of a graphite material, or I remember I a few years back I took a vacuum apart and it had big graphite spring loaded brushes as well.

Recently we had an old Lionel Thomas the Tank train engine and it used brushes as well (probably the only good thing on that engine besides it being cute). So I believe the correct the "swiping" would be the right and reliable engineering design.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Axel - 

Things are a bit confusing in this thread. 
When I read "ball-bearing wheels for power pick-up" I assume that to pick up power for lighting in cars and things like that. not to pick up power at the engine to drive the motor. 

The main power pick-ups for LGB engines have always been brushes and that's still the case today. LGB used brushes years ago to pick up power in cars for lighting, but the switched to ball-bearing wheels with power pickups around the year 2000. The big benefit was that this reduced the drag cause by the pick ups tremendeously allowing one to run much longer trains. 
I spoke to the chief engineer who was involved when these LGB ball bearing wheels were initially developed, he is of course long since retired, the design of these wheels is a lot more complex than meets the eye, specifically to address some of the potential issues mentioned in this thread. 
All I can say is that I have used these LGB wheels since they were introduced almost ten years ago and I have never had a problem.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, this thread has pretty much gone towards the eletrical ability of the bearings to transmit power, while I'd be interested in knowing just how much better are ball bearings trucks compared to the standard bushing trucks. As far as bearings and steel wheels providing better rolling resistance, I've only heard people say they should provide less rolling resistance. Surely there is someone out there that has a Load Cell that could be rigged to test the differences in plastic wheels and also ball bearing trucks. It's a shame these companies selling steel wheels and ball bearing trucks haven't provided this info to begin with, but obviously they are playing on the fact that a lot of people will buy the item on their word that it's going to be better. 

I'd like to know how much less the draw load is, percentage wise. Many people don't realize that the steel wheels and the ball bearing trucks add weight. So the additional weight, while small still increases the draw load. Are people spending a lot of money for steel wheels or ball bearing trucks and not getting what they expect? Who knows. There are no known specs from any organized testing. 

Anyone out there with a load cell that will tell us exactly what the advantage of steel wheels and ball bearing truck is? 

Now regarding the bushing versus ball bearing electric conductivity question. Why can't someone install an amp meter that can be hooked to a PC to a paasenger car or diesel to give us the exact advantage. 

Until real world test results are provided, we are spending money on stuff we can only hope will be worth the $$$$. 

Greg, this sounds right up your alley! 



Randy


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Randy -

I can help you out a little bit with the first question since I was interested in the reduction in rolling resistance as well when using ball-bearing wheels vs brushes.

Now these are measurement on specific cars with specific wheels - I don't think one can generalize too much because the SanVal ball-bearing wheels I have, even with no power pick-up, have a much higher rolling resitance than the LGB ones.

I'm also getting some ball-bearing wheel sets from Train-Li to see how they stack up.

So.............
On an LGB 31520 Passenger car which is a fairly recent item manufactured in Hungary - the force required to pull the car on level track was 15 grams - the weight of the car itself is 2035 grams. Thiis is with LGB ball-bearing pick-ups as delivered by the factory.
On an LGB 30650 Salon car manufactured in 1995 in Germany and equipped with brushes ex factory - the force required to pull the car on level track was 92 grams - the weight of the car itself is 1890 grams

And on a recent Kiss RhB car manufactured this year and using phosphor bronze sliders for power pick-up, the force required to pull the car on level track was 114 grams - the weight of the car itself is 2080 grams.

One thing to note - the LGB cars had 4 axles - two bogies with two axles each. Each bogie had one axle with power pick up and one regular (no bb) metal axle.

The Kiss car had metal sliders on all four axles which I'm sure increased the drag.

Knut


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I have also used LGB BB wheels for the same period. They have enhanced the operating characteristics of my railway immensely. You mentioned power pickup for lighting. I backfeed the loco with cables from the BB wheels, thus electrical pickup to the loco is guaranteed.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Madman on 17 Sep 2009 09:10 PM 
I backfeed the loco with cables from the BB wheels, thus electrical pickup to the loco is guaranteed.


Now that you brought that up, I remember more of the discussion with the LGB engineer.
The socket at the rear of most LGB locos was initially intended to power the lights in the passenger cars. 
None of the early passenger cars had power pickups and power for the lights was just strung from car to car via the loco socket and the little cutout at the top near the roof of each car.

Then when LGB introduced the brush-type pick ups and later the balll-bearing ones along with 2 amp, 5 amp and 10 amp transformers, and people used the pick ups on the cars to backfeed power to the loco, it turned out that both the loco connector and the wiring was totally inadequate if the engine derailed and caused a short. hat's when LGB had the connector redesigned, beefed up the gauge of wiring to the connector inside the loco and added a fuse to protect the wiring.

Interesting enough, there never was a problem with the ball-bearing pick-ups, they could handle the short circuit current fine.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting topic...I'll just a couple things that maybe haven't been mentioned. 
First off, from a very young age I had it drilled into my head that you never EVER put high current through a bearing. In my example, every night or two we would have to weld up the roll shells on the gravel crusher. The rolls were on large steel shafts (>10"dia) carried in very large and very expense roller bearings. God help the guy who put his ground clamp on the crusher frame! That is because doing that would cause the high welding current to go through the bearing, and ruining it due to arching/micropitting etc. So anywhere I need to pickup current for a motor I use the LGB brushes, despite a little more rolling resistance. For lights on cars with four axles, I'm OK using the ball bearing pickup wheels because the current is small, weight of the car is large enough to put enough pressure on the bearings internally to prevent arching. If it is a small, light, two axle car I go with brushes again because you only half the number of pickup points and not as much weight pressing down on the ball bearings. As far as the Aristo spring loaded ball bearing for power pickup on their motors....nope...I'll resist saying what I'm thinking on that one. On these new Aristo roller bearings....more Polkspeak.... 

Keith


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I have not had any experience with the LGB ball bearings siezing. I can't say for sure about pitting, because I have never opened up a ball bearing wheel to inspect the bearings, but all of my LGB ball bearing wheels sets roll as easily as the day I purchased them. I usually haul enough cars that there are plenty of contact points on the bearings to spead the load, so to speak.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have had a number of people indicate that LGB can rust if left outdoors or in moisture. No calibration on how much moisture or what specific situations. 

They seemed to roll ok when broken free was a common comment. 

All second hand information. I do not leave my LGB ball bearing equipped rolling stock out, and all of them look like new, but only about 4 years old. 

I consider the LGB ones the highest quality of all the offerings, I have LGB, Aristo and AML. 

Regards, Greg


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

That happened to me one summer, a few years back. I had left some rolling stock out, and just threw a tarp over them at night. This went on for a few weeks. I did run that train almost every day. However, at one point, near summer's end, I hadn't run them for a couple of weeks. the BB wheels froze slightly, but as you mentioned, once the rust was broken by rolling the wheels, they were as good as new.


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