# What happened to LGB?



## jhickman (Nov 30, 2009)

I was looking through my old "100 Years" of LGB catalog the other day and comparing it to last years catalog. It was striking as to how many cars that I thought would always be in the LGB family are no longer made. It's puzzling to me as to why so many of their smaller cars are gone from the catalog. There always seemed to be a struggle within LGB between the "toy" factor and the "realism" factor and it would seem with Marklin owning LGB that they larger cars have completely won out. 

Don't get me wrong, I love some of the larger cars that LGB has released, but the reduction in smaller cars has been dramatic in my opinion. I love to get some insight into some of these changes and the reasoning. 


My old favorites:
2050
2030
2033
3015
3050
3013
3061
3080
3081
4011


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

LGB LONG GONE BROKE!! IT will never be the sameas it WAS, and we might as well get used to that idea!! As with anything pretty much this day and age, they are all figuring out how to do something cheaper, and that usually means less quality than before, and smaller!! or less detail in the product. Somehow we have to make this thing smaller, cheaper, and more cost effective, and still get SOME kind of consumer interest!!!! Regal


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

the nice thing about LGB at the moment is that nothing new That I have gotten from them says made in china my feeling is that thay are heading back to the LGB of Old as in no more cheap stuff from them ... and like any co. in this year or times they are being careful about what they do so they do live thru this .......


doom a gloom in this hobby has no place .... I do hobbys to injoy myself not to bitch ..... be happy with what has been made or is being made or make it yourself if you can do better


my two cents ..... sorry if you do not like it


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Way to go Scott! 

Bash the new guy and make it sound like he's all doom and gloom, bitching about LGB. 

I didn't read any of this in his post. 

What I read was someone asking a question as to why the short LGB cars are no longer available from LGB. 

Why some of you long in the tooth MLS'ers think you have to look for and create negativity is beyond me. 

Now I'm no expert when it comes to LGB, but like most everything produced and sold, the bottom line for manufacturing anything is profit percentage. 

Most likely the shorter cars didn't have the profit margin the longer higher priced cars have and since LGB had went bankrupt and Marklin bought them, a deciesion was made to drop the cars with the smaller profit margin. 

JHickman, welcome to MLS. I hope posts like Scott's don't turn you off to this website. There are a lot of members on here that are willing to help and anser questions without turning the post into a negative rant. 

Randy


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Like any company that has gone belly up and then taken over by another you can bet certain items will not be made and now that most are made in the so called toy capital of the world do not expect any thing new for a while. It will not be as well made either but at least you will be able to buy the product. Later RJD


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## jhickman (Nov 30, 2009)

Blueregal - I bought a new coach recently and I must say that they quality was on par or better than a lot of the stuff I bought in the 80's. I've been lucky in that I haven't had any bad experiences with the LGB's I've purchased over the years. Apparently Marklin has sent a survey out to dealers in the US and I know my dealer has sent a wish list of models he'd like to see come back as they were great sellers. 

Trains West - not made in China is a plus. Providing feedback to LGB as well as dealers is key. At the end of the day it will indeed boil down to what sells and what does not. Then again if you consider the years when LGB really took off globally they did so selling essentially the same models year after year. It allowed enthusiasts who did not have deep pockets to build up their collections. That's the LGB of old that I'm sure you are referring to.


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## stevieb (Nov 22, 2009)

What are you guys doing on your spare time - Sleeping ? Have you gone to the web site of "Train World " they have had a sale going with LGB inventory for the last three months. They have the small cars for sale. The web site if you want it is 
www.trainworld.com or online shopping: trainworldonline.com 
They handle all manufactures. By the way I agree with Randy, this site is for everyone to ask questions, get the answers you need and not to bad mouth manufactures or others who may have an different opion. I have MTH, USA, Aristo Craft, Accucraft plus LGB and I have engines that fit each size in G scale. I love them all and I never get bored, I just change what I am running and put something else on the layout. Stevieb


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I prefer to run the shorter cars on my railway. They make a better looking and more believable train on garden layouts, in my opinion.


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## stevieb (Nov 22, 2009)

Vist Train world on line review there LGB inventory, you find what you want. Also go on line with Nicholas Smith Trains - www.nicholassmithtrains.com they are having a LGB sale. Hope that helps ! 
Stevieb


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Like Packard, Ask the man who owns one. 

I just bought a small four wheel car from (M)LGB. Quite happy with it, and in DRG/Epoch II paint too, something Lehmann never offered.


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

I like very much the old LGB Toytrain series. Some of the smaller wagons were scale models of existing prototypes. Great bash fodder as well. 
I remember, I bought many for just 10 or 20 Deutschmarks, sometimes for even less on flea markets. 










For the above loco, an Ex-Otto, there is a new cab offered in Germany. http://www.eisenbahn-emaille.de/lokomotiven/kleine-berta-grundbausatz-fuehrerhaus.html 
You will notice, the small models look much better on lower track, than on the huge brass curtain rails you still see very often.

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

If you look at the history of LGB and of similar companies you will find that they only catalog an item for a year or two or three. Originally LGB had to satisfy collectors who DID NOT want production of a model to continue (to increase the collector value). Also LGB (and others) know that continuous production will exceed demand and drive profits way down as the stuff has to be given away to move it.

One thing that happened is that models would be slightly changed (perhaps a new paint job) or updated (new electronics or updated sound system) with the result that a very similar model would be offered with perhaps a different model number (but maybe not) to build a NEW market for the NEW model.

The major expense is in the molds. There was a lot of discussion of who owned the molds and where they were but ultimately Marklin needs to decide which molds can be used to generate the maximum profits.

In a slow economy and after multiple bankruptcies it is logical for Marklin to offer a smaller product line focusing on the products most likely to generate the highest profit.

Meanwhile the 2009 catalog includes Moguls, Forneys and 2-4-0's (the ones I have been looking for) plus other new models.

In my opinion it was the tremendous variety of products that LGB offered (just look at the magnificent 2003 catalog) that probably contributed to the fall of LGB because perhaps they were trying to make too many products in a market becoming saturated by competition offering Chinese made products at much lower prices.

Aside from a few permanent products (LGB would never drop the Stainz) most products drifted into and out of LGB catalogs. Actually LGB tended to keep interest in the discontinued products by showing MANY out of production products as background in their catalogs.

With regard to the smaller LGB trains that is a market that other manufacturers have forfeited. Everyone seems focused on new modern huge locomotives and rolling stock. If you believe the forums R1 (4' diameter curves) are dead having been obsoleted by 20' diameter curves. Everyone seems to be forgetting that most people do not have room for 20' curves and others who might have the room, prefer the much more intense operations in small spaces that small curves make possible.

I started with large trains only to find that my layout would not support them. I switched to small LGB trains and used them exclusively for years until I rebuilt my outside layout to enable running Moguls and Mikados. Now my grandkids have grown older and lost interest in those small LGB trains so they will probably show up on eBay one of these days (but neither at collector nor give away prices). 

The best news is that there are so many thousands of LGB products world wide and they tend to run forever. I have many LGB products that are very slightly used and I bought many in that condition. The day will come when I will no longer be able to run my layouts and all the LGB products will find new homes somewhere. These LGB products will go from one owner to another and then another and then to another. 

For me the "Magic of LGB" is that the Richters created something that was greater than life. LGB products have an unlimited future because they were built without any thought given to planned obsolescence. They are like the Singer Sewing Machine of toy trains. I do not consider myself the owner of my LGB trains. I consider myself the custodian of them with an obligation to preserve them for future generations even though those future generations will not be mine since the kids in my family are not interested in the hobby.

LGB will not die and LGB cannot die - as long as someone continues to run and enjoy running or just collecting LGB trains.

Jerry


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Contact Hans at Gold Coast Station in Ventura Ca. He has the largest selection of LGB on the west coast 

http://www.goldcoaststation.com/ 

One reason they might have suspended new production on the smaller cars is that historicaly the smaller cars have been around for a much longer time, there is a large pool of used smaller stock usually readily available on Ebay, so new sales would be slower given that pool of used stock. Newer larger cars that have been popular and are far less available on secondary sources like Ebay would be better candidates for what limited production Marklin has decided to produce. 

I just picked up two more small shorty ore cars, two shorty stake cars and a shorty work caboose


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Originally LGB had to satisfy collectors who DID NOT want production of a model to continue (to increase the collector value). 


When the Richter Bros. introduced the LGB trains in 1968, it was intended for the toymarket, not as a collector´s item. For a very long time, they were doing fine, making simple models, from just a few interchangable parts. 

After about twenty years they decided to milk the US market. They had seen firms like Kalamazoo and Delton fail so they thought they might do better. Unfortunately companies like Bachmann and Aristo hit the market with the same idea. After only a few years, the local makers had learned their trade and LGB started loosing big money with their overseas expedition. The competion knew, where to have the goods made cheaply. Much cheaper than the Europeans. In addition, the Americans invented their own scales to have an individiul profile. A Wow factor and a 3 feet prototype scale. So LGB invested in new molds to keep up, but actually burned more money of the mother´s company. 

At the same time, even in europe, less and less folks wanted to buy the meanwhile very expensive toys anymore. So a few years ago LGB went bancrupt, the remains were sold to annother firm (Maerklin) , which is in insolvency since beginning of this year. Some LGB products are made in Hungary now, whre labour costs only a quarter of German workers. But they have longtime contracts with Chinese firm for parts. They say, very often the chinese parts which are delivered now, do not fit or are faulty, which brings production to a halt. 

Just saw a TV film this morning of the Chinese factory. They had quite a few LGB parts and molds laying around. By strange coincidence, this factory only recently was sold to Kader of Hong Kong (Owners of Bachmann and a few more toytrain firms). 

So if you want LGB products, buy them now. Whoever will make them in the near future, they will not become cheaper. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Fritz on 01 Dec 2009 08:43 AM 
Originally LGB had to satisfy collectors who DID NOT want production of a model to continue (to increase the collector value). 


When the Richter Bros. introduced the LGB trains in 1968, it was intended for the toymarket, not as a collector´s item. For a very long time, they were doing fine, making simple models, from just a few interchangable parts. 


True but it is also true that the European market was much less price motivated than the US market. LGB collectors became a significant part of LGB's customer base and unlike folks like me who buy based on price and function they were more motivated by limited production runs.

By the same token you had a German company created by Germans who primarily modeled German and European trains many of which were still in operation (in a museum if not on a railroad). The result was that they had easy access to the original prototypes. The German models were much more detailed and prototypical than the US models. The US models were criticized by many for being generic and not particularly prototypically correct. I suspect the difficulties of language, distance, availability and the tremendous variety of US railroad equipment must have been daunting for their marketing, designers and engineers.

Actually I was quite happy then and now about the generic construction because most of the parts from my earliest LGB Moguls, Forneys, Coaches etc. are fully interchangeable with the latest LGB production runs.

I am also appreciative of those LGB collectors for having preserved so many of the older US models so they have been continually available to new LGB buyers.

If I am not mistaken the US market only represented about 25% of the world wide LGB customer base. If my understanding is correct it was not so much that LGB sought out the US market as it was that a few Americans ran across LGB trains while in Europe and they pursued bringing LGB to the USA.

I don't claim to be any sort of authority on the history of LGB. I was late to joining the ranks of LGBers so I only know what I do through hearsay. There is a lot of interesting information about LGB and the other large scale manufacturers. I hope that some day someone qualified will write a book about it.

Jerry


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Fritz on 01 Dec 2009 08:43 AM 


When the Richter Bros. introduced the LGB trains in 1968, it was intended for the toymarket, not as a collector´s item. For a very long time, they were doing fine, making simple models, from just a few interchangable parts. 

After about twenty years they decided to milk the US market. They had seen firms like Kalamazoo and Delton fail so they thought they might do better. Unfortunately companies like Bachmann and Aristo hit the market with the same idea. After only a few years, the local makers had learned their trade and LGB started loosing big money with their overseas expedition. The competion knew, where to have the goods made cheaply. Much cheaper than the Europeans. In addition, the Americans invented their own scales to have an individual profile. A Wow factor and a 3 feet prototype scale. So LGB invested in new molds to keep up, but actually burned more money of the mother´s company. 


Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen 




This is an interesting argument--it basically blames the US market! I believe LGB was the first and only company making large scale in the US--they did not "see kalamazoo and delton fail" and then get involved. As I understand it, LGB sold in the US market and then others came along, like aristo, making US profile models which were distinct from what LGB tended to offer. I may be wrong about that narrative, but I don't think so. 


I would guess LGB lost money when it went into all those ridiculous tie-in models, like the Snoopy cars--how much did they have to pay Chas. Schultz for that? Or the Coca-Cola mogul--that never made a lick of sense to me. How much did it cost to put the Coke logo on the side of a model?


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## jhickman (Nov 30, 2009)

Jerry, thanks for the thoughtful analysis. I think the 90's did bring an over saturation of LGB models in an attempt to complete in areas they traditionally did not compete. Perhaps they did indeed overextend themselves. 

If you look at the history of LGB and of similar companies you will find that they only catalog an item for a year or two or three. 

Actually, if you look at the first few catalogs that hit the US in 1980/81 (all in German, later in English) up until the early 90's the overwhelming majority of LGB engines and cars were consistently in each catalog year after year, some for over 5 or 10 years! Some engines and cars were very gradually phased out, but we are talking "years" v.s. "a year". This was at the point where LGB was still profitable and growing so I'm having a hard time concluding that a lack of new products was hurting LGB. Between 1980 and 1990 it's not as though LGB had a huge line of American styled stock, so again they were still growing on a mostly Euro product line. I reviewed each of these catalogs last night (80's - 90's) and I think the turning point occurred after the 90/91 catalog. It seems at this point the range of products went through the roof, aside from all of the products that popped up that never made the inside of a catalog. 

Consider another mindset outside of us older enthusiasts. I was 10 years old when LGB hit the US market and became "reasonably" available in the early 80's. I got my first starter set then, began adding to it. My point is that it took several years of being financially able (mowing lots of lawns) to buy multiples of the same car for a line I was developing. I essentially relied on cars I needed to complete my line to be available year after year (pre-Ebay days). It was similar to the mindset in collecting Matchbox cars (back when they actually came in boxes). Every year there would be new cars but the catalogs would contain many of the same cars year after year giving the enthusiast a chance to collect them all. Just a different perspective to throw into the mix that I believe is a factor as well. 

I just bought yet another 30500 yesterday, slightly different than my 3050, I can't get enough of those coaches. 

Thanks, 
Joe


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By jhickman on 01 Dec 2009 12:35 PM 
Jerry, thanks for the thoughtful analysis. I think the 90's did bring an over saturation of LGB models in an attempt to complete in areas they traditionally did not compete. Perhaps they did indeed overextend themselves. 

If you look at the history of LGB and of similar companies you will find that they only catalog an item for a year or two or three. 

Actually, if you look at the first few catalogs that hit the US in 1980/81 (all in German, later in English) up until the early 90's the overwhelming majority of LGB engines and cars were consistently in each catalog year after year, some for over 5 or 10 years! .Joe 

Hi Joe,

That is the sort of information that keeps me from ever claiming to be an expert on anything.









The fact is that I did not get into this hobby and never heard of LGB until the mid 1990's. I actually started out with other brands but was "forced" to buy LGB due to my sloppy construction and extreme limits (confined spaces - and space limiting wife) of where I had to build my layouts. When I first priced LGB my reaction was that LGBers must be rich or crazy but when nothing else works and I needed something with a low center of gravity I ended up buying little LGB Starter Sets - and I was hooked.

In the early days Aristo-Craft was the importer and distributor for LGB in the USA.

In later days Pat Sullivan was in Europe where he ran across LGB and one thing led to another.

If we give credit to LGB for 45mm track (and I do not know of any other manufacturer who claims to have invented it) I think we have to give LGB credit for fathering this hobby because even though Marklin may have had an earlier start I believe their oldest trains ran on a different (standard?) gauge track.

David Fletcher had written a great series of articles that covered Kalamazoo and Delton that used to be here on MLS. If it is still here I don't know where to find it.

Actually if we look to the history of garden railroading I think the Brits may have the best claim to have fathered the hobby - just not in 45mm.

It can be fun to try to figure out who did what first but I don't think it matters much to most of us. For me what is most important is the fact that in my opinion LGB simply made the most durable and most weather resistant model trains. When it rains the only trains that I run are LGB Starter Sets and even though I don't care much for European styled trains it is the European Starter Sets that are my rain trains.

When $300 will buy a nice laptop computer with Windows 7 and RW CD/DVD or a nice 24" 1080p HDTV with features that $5,000 could not have purchased 10 years ago it is difficult for a toy manufacturer to separate us from $300 for a toy train plus another $300 for a premium sound for that toy train. Now if only we could get a few million more folks into large scale model trains just think what that would do to the cost of manufacturing and retail prices. 

What appeals to me is that my 2018d's are is no more obsolete today than they were 20 years ago while every computer, TV and automobile I bought over the past 20 years has long been obsolete. I can still get parts for my 2018d's but many replacement car parts are no longer available.

Jerry


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## jhickman (Nov 30, 2009)

Jerry, 

You would probably get a kick out of getting your hands on a copy of the "L G B - 100 YEARS OF LEHMAN" catalog. My dad brought a German version (which I still have) of this catalog home one day and the rest was history for me. I saved up for 6 months to get my first starter set and quickly set aside my HO layout that consumed my bedroom. I still look to this catalog as being the catalog that really blew people away here in the US. 

I'm amazed at how good most of the stock I had as a kid still looks good. I bought my boys a small set for the backyard and they have done just about everything imaginable to the engine and cars and they still run great. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/L-G-B---100-YEA...temQQimsxZ20091107?IMSfp=TL091107184006r27017 

Photos of my office ceiling layout: 
http://picasaweb.google.com/joe.s.hickman/Trains# 

Thanks, 
Joe


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## coralbayfl (Dec 3, 2008)

Marklin is pretty much belly-up. Received this e-mail today on LGB warranty info from Walthers: 

"Lewis, 

At this point we are still not doing any warranty or repair service for LGB. LGB was purchased by Marklin GmBH and Marklin is currently in bankruptcy prceeding under the watch of the German Federal government. There are several prospective buyers for Marklin but the German government is being very careful to scrutinize every potential buyer to make sure that the company will not only stay in Germany but also prosper so the process is a bit protracted. We will be handling parts, warranty and service issues for LGB in North America once Marklin is finally sold and the dust settles, at this point however I cannot give a time frame as to when that may happen. I would suggest that you may want to check back with us from time to time to see where progress is heading on this issue and once we have everything in place you can then send it in and get the needed repairs. 


Randy 

Wm. K. Walthers 

Parts & Warranty Dept."


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

All- 

Where does that e-mail state anywhere that Marklin is belly up? They are in a bankruptcy now for several (and if you are business savy, interesting) reasons, some of which were discussed on National Public Radio just last Tuesday week! Marklin have survived many an economic crisis and two world wars, so I would not count them out yet. 

A good point Fritz, and unfortunately one that has carried to almost all things here in the US now. The mantra in US retail now is cheap somehow bows out to ANY kind of customer service, brand loyatly and quality. Yes, cheaper, but nevermind in time you will have to replace things more often. 

Yes, the 1980/81 catalog is a goldmine. What is really interesting is if you have both the Deutsche and English versions, there are differences. The factory worker pix, the prototypes Vs. final product for the 308X cars, the aborted Hammant and Morgan control system (same system as Zero-1, prehistoric DCC!) for the European market. 

Gives a bit of 1980s nostalgia in all regards....back when all the Central Ohio toy shops and garden centers had at least SOME LGB around. 

The Golden Age of large scale perhaps?


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 01 Dec 2009 02:35 PM 


If we give credit to LGB for 45mm track (and I do not know of any other manufacturer who claims to have invented it) I think we have to give LGB credit for fathering this hobby because even though Marklin may have had an earlier start I believe their oldest trains ran on a different (standard?) gauge track.

David Fletcher had written a great series of articles that covered Kalamazoo and Delton that used to be here on MLS. If it is still here I don't know where to find it.

Actually if we look to the history of garden railroading I think the Brits may have the best claim to have fathered the hobby - just not in 45mm.

Jerry


Jerry.....

The Brits standardized Gauge 1 (1.75" or 45 mm) at the LAST turn of the century. Gauge 1 fit between 0 (zero, not Oh) and 2...and 3.

http://www.gaugeone.org/History%20&%20Facts.htm

What may be correct is I think LGB came out a year or two before Marklin started more mass produced Gauge 1 releases?


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Joe,

Your office layout looks great. The book is interesting but most likely predates my LGB trains (mainly Moguls, Mikados, Forneys and F7's).

Garrett,

Your information clarifies the situation. Thanks for providing it.




Regarding LGB and Marklin...

I would NEVER count LGB and or Marklin out.

As the banks were "too big to fail" I think the market for LGB is "too big to ignore." There is just too much profit potential in all those spare parts, molds, copyrights and patents for some company not to eventually come out of the darkness with production rights and production products to sell to past, current and future LGB customers.

At the very least I would expect some sort of future at least equal to Delton products now available from other manufacturers. By comparison Delton never had anything like the LGB world wide product line and market share. 

While it is not impossible that cheap reproductions might be in the future I would hope for better and cheap painted products with a LGB label thrown on them will never cut it with LGB owners who know that you can cut most LGB rolling stock in half and find that they are not painted but rather the color is actually in the plastic and cuts do not scrape paint away because there usually is no paint to scrape away.

Jerry


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## jhickman (Nov 30, 2009)

Jerry, 

Yes, the idea of Marklin of LGB not being around is fantasy. What they are going through right now is financial restructuring. We could potentially see the brands separated. Nothing would surprise me.......... but the LGB brand isn't' going anywhere. I would ideally like to see an wealthy, experienced, enthusiast pick up as an independent entity. 

Thanks, 
Joe


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

LGB was bought by Maerklin investors two years ago. Maerklin filed for insolvncy in February and is for sale. Current price asked is 70 - 80 Million Euros. 


- Not a single of the former LGBemployes is working for Maerklin. 

- Machines and workshops were sold or scrapped last year 

- All spare parts from the former Nuernberg production have been sold 

- The remains of samples and developments will be on auction this weekend http://www.gscalecentral.co.uk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=823&posts=38&start=1 

- Some LGB products are assembled in Hungary now from parts made in China and Hungary. 

- Some copies are offered worldwide by a Chinese firm called Newquida 


Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Whatever happens to Marklin will still leave (at least) three questions.

1. What will happen to the value of existing LGB products?

2. Where will spare parts come from for existing LGB products?

3. Who will do repairs to existing LGB products?

Putting #3 first, there is Silvergate, Massoth and Train-Li plus possibly Walthers for for the immediate future there are sources for repairs.

As for spare parts the above still have limited quantities of parts available. Best of all most LGB products run for years and years with few breakages and the more common things like smoke units, carbon brushes, track cleaning loco abrasive wheels, lights etc. will probably always have a source available.

With regard to #1 only time will tell.

For my part I intend to keep running my LGB trains. Over the years I have purchased some relatively low cost duplicates that can be used if necessary plus if necessary I will cannibalize a few to keep the others running.

Unfortunately the story of the LGB employees can be found duplicated many thousands if not millions of times as we have seen our factories (and the German/European factories) closing down with production moving to China or other eastern countries. As long as we (including myself) don't care where or how everything we buy is sold cheaper and cheaper I don't see how the outcome of LGB and Marklin could have been any different. 

I continue to buy LGB (along with other brands) because they still give great value (and a lot of dependable fun) for the prices they are selling for. If others panic and sell in a rush that will simply provide bargains for others. When buying used LGB trains with parts and service in question more caution is called for but that has always been the case with anything on eBay etc.

Jerry


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Well, Silvergate does not mention LGB on their page, Walthers has a pricelist published but nothing in store, Train-Li Alex might have some contacts to German or Swiss dealers. Massoth? Aren´t they these Digital Dealers? They do repairs for LGB in the US? 

The main problem with closing down local production is, the know-how is forgotten over here. Most western companies fail elsewhere sooner or later and come back. Their quality image is destroyed and they can´t find anybody who designs, develop or assembles their products anymore. 

So wake me up, if LGB is offering quality again and can guarantee a longer service. In the meantime I´ll spend my money elsewhere. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

i have to say that overall my perceptions are the same as Jerrys re LGB and the relation to the US-and just about everything else he mentioned including observations about the greater attention euro models got compared to US 

and I too have noticed that LGB items come and go and ..come back... however-i also wonder if, as the hobby matures and becomes more sophisticated, we may not see the toy/small items except as toy offerings-i often see a similarity between LGB and n scale Arnold Rapido-what was once state of the art-and built like a 1960's Mercedes has been surpassed due to more sophisticated competition-paint, electronics, flanges, etc-as well as ...price 

i too love the smaller items -im a 'red blooded american' train guy and have always loved big impressive mainline models, but own only a Mikado and Genesis and appropriate stock in this realm-its gorgeous but its HUGE 

but like Jerry, i find as far as operation and layouts-the small and medium LGB stuff has its own place, not only for tractability but also simple ease and compactness 

i regret the chloe and grizzly flats stuff is likely history 

and i too am beginning to worry that unless LGB re-enters the market with offerings soon-it may never be able to recover the 'momentum' it once had-


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## coyote97 (Apr 5, 2009)

i see some problems on that issue. i told onec before...
...LGB had a "big hit" when they invented those relatively cheap models like "stainz" and its 2 passenger cars.

it was ok when they grow and made lots of new models...its part of the history and success.

But there seems to be a point every company can reach and has to stop and think it over.

LGB didn´t.

Here in Germany MANY customers told for years that LGB didn´t make what they wanted to have.
the RHB-Programm---once a big business---was overfilled with well known products in a broad bandwidth of varieties:
a brown crocodile, a red on, a blue one, a green one, an orange one.....

LESS people had interests on an orange crocodile, but ALL said that slightly smaller light-pot-rings would fit fine:
no reaction, for decades the first thing you saw whe a LGB loco comes arround where the golden rings.

they devellopped some kind of arrogance. Heard on the wishes of a few "important" customers and not on those of thousands of customers.

Märklin: its the same!

As a result they tried to reach new markets: the USA-Line of LGB was mainly some re-painted locos on old drivebases and cars from china.
The form of a LGB-truck is THAT equal to a Bachmann, that i want to say: it comes from the same production-band. 

Märklin began to manufacture outside germany....

all they got was the loss of control over quality.

The best argument for G-Scalers wanting quality ist BRAWA:
They built a very fine RHB-Steam engine and cars, BUT the construction was some kind of "young" and many customers told that the model runs not properly:
BRAWA is going out of G-Scale business!

Piko offered less-detailed models who RUN and can be payed fro customers: they are IN business. Thats market! 

LG

Frank


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Fritz on 02 Dec 2009 10:12 AM 
So wake me up, if LGB is offering quality again and can guarantee a longer service. In the meantime I´ll spend my money elsewhere. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen 





Actually I do not retain any expectations of a resurrection of the old LGB. The old LGB Company is as dead as the factories are closed and the employees are gone.

The future of both LGB and Marklin products is in doubt but that does not mean that folks should stop buying and start selling their existing LGB products (in my opinion).

My position is simply that I fully expect the LGB products I now own to outlive me and I continue to buy additional LGB products as I feel necessary to fill gaps in my layouts.

What many people fail to grasp is that just as there will be many very old Lionel and American Flyer trains running around Christmas trees this year so too will our LGB trains continue to run for many years to come.

Our LGB products do not know or care if the factory they came from is now closed and thanks to their durable design and construction (and freedom from planned obsolescence) all they care about is whether they are getting up to 24 volts DC to make them run. 

The electronics such as MTS/DCC may be outclassed by newer hardware (decoders) and software but the important stuff (non-electronics) are built to last for many years.

A friend once told me I should dump my Smith & Wesson's because he (who owned few if any Smith & Wesson's) considered the then current ownership of S&W to be unacceptable (to him). Others have had long running commentaries about the internal happenings within the LGB organization. 

While I may care about such things I do not let them interfere with my having fun. This is a hobby and as long as my S&W's and LGB's do what I bought them to do I will ignore the rest of the world and have fun with my toys.

For me what is important are the facts that I can see and touch. The facts are (as I see them) that there are no similar locomotives that can replace the LGB Moguls, Mikados and Forneys on my layout with its R1, R2 and R3 curves and the LGB F7's happen to be my favorite diesels even though they are over sized for most of my rolling stock.

My layouts determine what I buy (what can run on them). Because of that, there are no substitutes available from any manufacturer that can do what my LGB trains do. For me it is not that LGB is gone - it is that nothing equal to LGB has become available.

The 2009 LGB/Marklin catalog includes 2-4-0's, Moguls and Forneys. Whether we like it or not we cannot make a blanket assumption that the Chinese or someone else is incapable of producing LGB quality products. I will naturally have to be convinced by sight and touch and experience before I accept anything as being the same as the old LGB quality but the truth is that LGB Chinese production was not (in my opinion) equal to German production but it was good enough for me at the lower prices it was selling for.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Piko offered less-detailed models who RUN and can be payed fro customers: they are IN business. Thats market! 


In Germany they selling some of the Piko stuff per Blow Off for half price at the moment. Never heard of anybody mentioning it in the US. Does not sound as if they are in buisiness too well with the larger trains. 

Brawa saturated the market with a few finescale models. How many RhB steam engines of a certain type does one need? I have one train which runs and looks fine. It a bit delicate to handle but so are all better models. They should have made them from metal, not plastic. 

As Jerry said. Plenty of LGB stuff with the old quality still on the 2nd hand market which probably will survive us. Until a few years ago I had some Maerklin Tin toys from the Twenties live steamers which were running fine as well. But I had to dispose the early Bachmann models from 1989. Never got it to run properly. They have learned and improved meanwhile 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## jhickman (Nov 30, 2009)

Fritz, 

- Machines and workshops were sold or scrapped last year 

Ok, now I'm getting depressed. Are German authorities looking to keep LGB / Marklin manufacturing within Germany? Which politician or German department is overseeing this? I have no problem sending them a letter. 

By the way that auction looks more like a "private" auction and not LBG lots. Did you look at the catalog? 

Thanks, 
Joe


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Some machines were scrapped, likely older more out of date machines, but not all as they are still in production, albietly limited with LGB production shifted to Hungary, so production has already flown the coup. If what was posted on Gscalecentral is correct, the $64 question seems to be whether Marklin can find investors willing to wait several years, maybe more than a decade, to see any real returns. That is a very hard sell these days.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Thinking Marklin/LGB is too big and too good to become another New Bright or just completely go out of business is ludicress. 

Like most hobby based companies, I'm sure LGB started out with an owner that was interested in toy trains. But with investors being sought, to purchase Marklin/LGB, it is very doughtful that these investors will have any interest in trains or the toy trains themselves, other than making money. Most likely the investors will be looking at a plan to build sales for a resale of the business in 3-5 years. To do that, they will produce the items that sell the best and if cutting costs is required, they won't think twice before cutting quality and poor selling items. 

If you want Marklin/LGB to come back to what they once were, you better be praying some deep pocketed train lover buys them, otherwise the Marklin/LGB you once new will be history. 

Randy


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Look what happened with Lionel. Original owner liked trains







. Next owner could care less







. Then another train nut







. Now I don't know who owns it







.


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Joe - If you are interested in two-axle LGB rolling stock try this website: http://www.starhobby1.com/index.html The location is in Maryland very near the Chesapeake Bay Bridge (Rt. 50). They will ship anywhere.

They have a lot of LGB that is old but unsold; yellow boxes, lighter orangish-red boxes, etc. Their in-stock list on the website is never 100% up to date so you have to call. But they do still have quite a bit of stock as of this past July when I last visited.

I think Märklin has some people who want to make LGB a house name again but they are fighting a double-whammy - their own insolvency plus the worldwide recession that has critically dampened the markets for luxury toys.. I personally place no faith in speculation about what might become of them; the German gov't / legal system will work it out slowly but surely - one way or another..

Al in Maryland


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By jhickman on 01 Dec 2009 03:00 PM 
Jerry, 

You would probably get a kick out of getting your hands on a copy of the "L G B - 100 YEARS OF LEHMAN" catalog. My dad brought a German version (which I still have) of this catalog home one day and the rest was history for me. I saved up for 6 months to get my first starter set and quickly set aside my HO layout that consumed my bedroom. I still look to this catalog as being the catalog that really blew people away here in the US. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/L-G-B---100-YEA...4006r27017


Thanks, 
Joe 



Hi Joe,

I just received confirmation that my offer for the book "L G B - 100 YEARS OF LEHMAN" was accepted.

The spelling of Lehman/Lehmann is confusing. I always thought it was Lehman but the cover says Lehmann. Even the eBay ad lists both spellings - one for the description and the other visible on the book. According to my 2003 LGB catalog Lehmann is correct.

Thank you for letting me know it was on eBay.

Jerry


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## jhickman (Nov 30, 2009)

Jerry, 

I'll have to scan that catalog one of these days for the group. I took a photo of the German version of the same catalog for you along with an early distributors catalog. 

http://picasaweb.google.com/joe.s.hickman/Trains#5411073569636335810 

Thanks, 
Joe


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Joe,

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't forget (edit: bits w/ addt'l historical info and scans of some of) the older (pre '78 or so) catalogs are on the Much site also. 

And yes, it is Lehmann....


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## jhickman (Nov 30, 2009)

Garrett, 

I would love to see the '78 catalog. What is the web site? 

Thanks, 
Joe


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

As per above, the Much website. 

http://www.lgb-much.de/

Or try "LGB Much" at http://www.google.de/


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By jhickman on 01 Dec 2009 03:00 PM 
Jerry, 

You would probably get a kick out of getting your hands on a copy of the "L G B - 100 YEARS OF LEHMAN" catalog. My dad brought a German version (which I still have) of this catalog home one day and the rest was history for me. I saved up for 6 months to get my first starter set and quickly set aside my HO layout that consumed my bedroom. I still look to this catalog as being the catalog that really blew people away here in the US. 

Hi Joe,

The catalog arrived and as I looked through it I was surprised how much US style rolling stock is in it. I think I have most of the items and the level of detail is much lower than the same models in later production plus some of it is marked "Made in the USA." On much of the rolling stock the handrails are simply molded protrusions rather than the separate attached handrails etc. The 4065 DRGW bobber caboose is a prime example. I wonder just how many variations in the 4065 molds (not just the colors and railroads) there have been. The most obvious changes are the molded handrails and the European style buffers above the couplers.

Do you or does anyone else know which catalogs contained the first US locomotives"

Moguls?

Forneys?

F7's

LGB/Aster models of the Hudson, Mikado etc.?

The plastic Mikados are in the catalogs I have.

The 100 year catalog I received is in great shape but the pages have separated from the cover. Does anyone know what kind of glue should be used to glue (re-bind) it back together?

Thanks,

Jerry


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## jhickman (Nov 30, 2009)

I believe, from looking at older catalogs, that they had a few American flat cars, the green log car and the small caboose in the early 70's. I am unaware of any American engines until the late 70's and I believe the first one was the 2017 with others only appearing in the 80's on. 2017 is a great little engine and mine has stood the test of time. The first Mogul that I see in the catalog's from when I was a kid was the 1981 catalog which shows the 2018D (this is the dark red catalog with the LGB logo). I noticed that I wrote the price of the 2018D from my local train store as being $587.13 at that time. 

You can see the molded handrails up close on my 4067: 
http://picasaweb.google.com/joe.s.hickman/Trains#5415253099988798610 

Also, my German as well my English 100 Year catalog's all have the same problem yours has. I have not tried to put them back together. My dad has an English version that has not fallen apart, but then again he's a O gauge guy so he probably didn't open it up that much. 

Joe


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

The true testimonial of Lehmann products is that 20 year old 3rd hand Stainz engines have not only held a resale value, but increased about 30-50% in the last 2 years, not so much due to the action of 'collectors', but by people wanting a train that will *run* (and run and run), and not look totally stupid on small layouts.... OTOH what's a 12 yo bug mauler really worth? $7.50? 

Meanwhile, the industry has, in general, headed towards overpriced behemoths that many people simply don't have the acreage to actually operate... because the vocal minority SAID they wanted it, but said they wanted it CHEAP, then griped when it wasn't perfect right out of the box, or cheap enough to suit.... 

Low Price? High Quality? Detail? Durability? Scale Fidelity? Fancy Electronics? All involve trade offs. IMO the people who claim that Lehmann failed due to German 'arrogance' in ignoring what the 'market' wanted overlook the fact that the 'market' often doesn't know what it really wants. --- Or more accurately is a bit contradictory and has totally unrealistic expectations..... basically wanting an all option Bentley for the price of a clapped out stripper Yugo.... 

Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Mik, I totally agree with your statement about the loudmouth minority. LGB made an excellent product, that would take alot of abuse, and that had a great deal of detail. For the most part, we operate trains outdoors. How much detail does one really require for a train that is to be operated in the open environment it is meant to be in? Granted, indoor train layouts can stand all the detail they can muster. I will venture to speculate that more LGB trains will be around, and still running, than most of the other large scale manufacturers. The hobby became too sophisticated for it's own good.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

In the current market place I don't think LGB stood a chance. If they had not gone bankrupt when they did I think they would have gone bankrupt this year.

I agree with what has been said by Mik and Dan and while I disagree with others who suggest that G Scale is going away I think it is true that competitive products have grown to a level of total product availability that exceeds the market's ability to keep all such products (and their manufacturers) profitable.

We all know the joke about a hobby shop being able to earn $1,000,000 - they just need to start with $2,000,000. I think there is a lot of truth in that and that it represents the impossibility of a hobby shop to keep any sort of representative inventory of large scale because there is simply too much available. Any attempt at stocking large scale will be overwhelmed by online sales from large national dealers and I don't think anything is going to change this.

By the same token I don't see how the hobby can expect significant growth when there is nowhere locally for prospective buyers to see large scale trains in a local store for them to get hooked on the hobby in the first place.

Just as the old Lionel and American Flyer exist with their old trains still running so too will the old LGB exist for many, many years as our current LGB products continue to run year after year. The main difference in my opinion is that unlike Lionel and American Flyer many of the LGB trains will be running all year long.

In the end I don't think it matters much as what will be will be. Fewer kids today are interested in model trains but there still are a bunch of kids from 8 to 80 that ARE still interested in toy trains. 

I have a perfectly good (like new) and hardly ever used JVC Super VHS Recorder and a great Sony Hi-8 Video Camera and some very nice Nikon and Minolta cameras that I used to worry about losing in a burglary. Now I almost would like to lose them in a burglary because they have not been used in years. I never bother putting them away the few times I am gone because they are not worth protecting.

If I had spent that money on LGB trains instead I would have had many previous years plus many future years of enjoyable use of them with no concern for them ever becoming obsolete.

I have no doubt that in the year 2050 there will still be many LGB trains running and running and running.


Sometimes a product is so successful that it invites so much competition that it ends up losing its identity and lower priced competition reduces profitability to a level insufficient to maintain original quality levels. Many such brands end up being lost to bankruptcy or being bought up by companies without concern for quality but merely profitability. 

LGB Toy Trains
Zenith Televisions
IBM Personal Computers
Sharp Carousel Microwaves
Lionel Toy Trains
American Flyer Toy Trains
Frigidaire Refrigerators
Kleenex Tissues
HP LaserJet Printers
HP Desk Jet Printers

Some technologies become obsolete as newer and better technologies emerge.

Manual and Electric Typewriters
Black & White Television
Vacuum Tubes
8" Floppy Disks
5 1/4" Single Sided Floppy Disks 
5 1/4" Double Sided Floppy Disks 
5 1/4" Double High Density Floppy Disks 
3 1/2" Double Sided Floppy Disks
3 1/2" High Density Floppy Disks

Some companies introduce successful products that technology obsoletes their main source of profits from those products.

Phillips Cassette Recorders
Dictaphone Dictating Machines
Kodak Color Film
Kodak Film Cameras
Epson Dot Matrix Printers

I am sure that many others can be added to these lists.

Jerry


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I was thinking (dangerous, that) ... If you want to blame LGBs demise on their corporate philosophy, you MIGHT be right. -- See, if you only needed ONE locomotive, and bought an LGB, it never broke down, so you didn't need to buy any more. But if you bought brand B, it stripped gears, burnt up the motor, lost pieces, etc... So you bought another one, and another, and another... 

Imagine how bad it would be in Detroit if they built cars that lasted 30 years


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 15 Dec 2009 12:27 PM 
Imagine how bad it would be in Detroit if they built cars that lasted 30 years 

Do you mean like my 1977 F-250? The 1985 Suburban is getting there too. 

I think there are four reasons they have lasted so long:

1. roads are not salted in the South.
2. they have few electronics.
3. they do not have any computers (or not any delicate ones).
4. they are mostly metal with little plastic.

I can also leave them sit for a month or more and they will start while the electronics in newer cars go nuts if left disconnected from a battery for a month.

The more we demand the more they will sell to us and everything added on are just more things that can fail.

As with LGB I am sure that the factories and employees that produced the F-250 and Suburban are long since gone.

Does Detroit still make any cars?

Jerry


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## jhickman (Nov 30, 2009)

Jerry, 

I think comparing "technology" dependent products v.s. hobby related products is difficult. As one who has worked in high tech, projects I worked on 15 years ago are completely obsolete in every sense of the word. I think of trains more along the lines of my grandfather laying stone for his local jail house. The building is still there and still relevant to the community. In other words my work is in a constant state of innovation and merely lasts in it's legacy in building the foundation for future technology. My grandfathers work is something that was complete and has remained in it's original state with slight modification over a long period of time. 

Consider the fact that LGB existed as an independent company since 1881. Also, take a look at the old catalogs from 60's to the late 80's (http://www.lgb-much.de/). New engines and cars were slow to appear. In fact we might have seen 2 or 3 new cars and perhaps one new engine being introduced year after year. They grew during the this less ambitious period of time and seemed to take a lot of care in determining what their market would bare. The 90's and thereafter seemed to be a period of greed and complete over extension what their market would bare. 

I think my dad and his train club buddies are the other factor in the sense that they grew up running Lionel and don't really care all that much for European models as I do. They also used to gripe about how slow LGB was in releasing more American style stock which was understandable from their point of view. When cheaper G arrived coupled with American models very similar to what they used to run as kids on Lionel they bought it up. Also, my dads train club buddies do a lot of kit bashing so the idea of bashing a $100 LGB car v.s. $50 look alike is no contest. They are also absolutely geared toward realism. These are guys who have ride on trains in their backyards, aside from their layouts, and two of them have real cabooses in their yards!!! I run my LGB exactly like I did when I was a kid, simple. 

My friends family operates a small chocolate factory and they spend what they have v.s. what they expect to have or don't have in growing their business. I suspect that for the large amount of years that LGB was in business it conducted it's affairs in the same manner until the last decade or so. It also helps when executives truly "care" about the product and are personally vested in the success of the company. 

I still contend that LGB may survive and might possibly get back to it's roots. In my personal opinion I'd love to see them once again be a company with products built in Germany and far more concerned about building a lasting superior product than anything else.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By jhickman on 15 Dec 2009 01:40 PM 
two of them have real cabooses in their yards!!! I run my LGB exactly like I did when I was a kid, simple. 

It also helps when executives truly "care" about the product and are personally vested in the success of the company. 

I still contend that LGB may survive and might possibly get back to it's roots. In my personal opinion I'd love to see them once again be a company with products built in Germany and far more concerned about building a lasting superior product than anything else. 



Actually I too have a real caboose in my back yard (MoPac #13641) but I also run trains as a toy but with a touch of realism. Whether it is called imagination or fantasy is immaterial as long as we are having fun.

I also agree that LGB was a company that wanted to build a lasting superior product and that this rather than anything else made LGB great.

It is not that I have given up hope on LGB. In my opinion LGB may not be too big to fail but it may well have too great a following to be allowed to fail in that it is a ready market for the right new owner to step in and save a lot of work building a reputation and a product line from scratch.

My attitude is that my LGB toy trains are just that - toy trains. I certainly wish and hope for the best for LGB's future but just as there is nothing I can do for the ex-LGB employees there is no point in my losing sleep over what may or may not become of LGB (or large scale trains) in the future.

I suspect that I am not alone in that my LGB spending dollars have not found their way into a competitor's pocket. I still buy LGB (recently a couple SP Moguls, an F7B, an ATSF caboose plus a couple dozen LGB boxcars and hoppers). I also buy competitive products but my preference will always be for LGB. There are many products that LGB never made like E8's GP-40's and Woodsided Cabooses plus things like Cotton belt and MoPac rolling stock. 

No one manufacturer will ever make everything I may want and in many cases a quantity of another brand is preferable to me than much fewer LGB products. I consider LGB Locomotives without peer for my needs and I would love to find a set of UP passenger cars at a reasonable price but then too someday I will be gone and my stuff will add to the available LGB products on eBay or elsewhere.

Nothing is forever but that's life.

Regards,

Jerry


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