# Li-ion charging station....where to put it???



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

I've closely followed the discussion regarding Li-ion and Li-Po batteries for some time. Now that we're seeing the commercial versions of these batteries having recharge cycles measured in thousands, the affordability of these batteries is becoming very attractive. So too do we see the advances in the charging safety technology through the introduction of the cell balancing pig tail and balancing devices that cost under $10.

But, unlike the RC plane folks which have been the leaders in causing the batteries to get safer, we rarely remove the battery pack from the engine when we charge them. The RC plane guys I know, remove the battery pack, plug in the charger and balancing device, put the pack in a ceramic jug that has a lid, and turn on the charger. That way, if a cell shorts, you contain the fire inside a fireproof "vault". And, to make the charging process even safer, many are putting their charging jugs outside the house...with the charger in the jug too.

Now, given all that, has anyone thought about what an outdoor charging station would/could look like for a engine with batteries or a car with Li-ion/Li-Po batteries in it? Anyone got any examples?


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

My Li-Ions are charged inside the loco (tender or railcar). I charge them in my garage on the bench. I built a little crib for them to sit in made of Hardi-backer-board. I figured this cement-like material is probably more fire resistant than wood is. ??? I may be wrong, but I think the majority of the concern with fire is with the Li-Pos? I'm no expert here.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

OK...a crib...is there a top? The reason I ask is that I've seen 5' tall flames come out of a Li-ion/LiPo battery being charged...and it is those flames that get the house burning. But, HardiBacker sounds good...and perhaps an outdoor GRR building lined with HardiBacker would make a good place to run the loco's into for charging.


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Strange. The first post I made never appeared.

Oh well.

I make all installs with removable batteries now. That way I don't have to worry about a charging plug on the tender. If I want a longer run, I can always just put in a fresh battery, although I've never run out yet.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 03/13/2009 10:51 AM
OK...a crib...is there a top? The reason I ask is that I've seen 5' tall flames come out of a Li-ion/LiPo battery being charged...and it is those flames that get the house burning. But, HardiBacker sounds good...and perhaps an outdoor GRR building lined with HardiBacker would make a good place to run the loco's into for charging. 

So, I'm still trying to learn about Li-xx's. Was it a Li-Ion battery you saw flaming or a Li-Po? Are they both equally dangerous? And, I am assuming they are only dangerous if the protection circuitry fails. If you are using cells without protection circuits, I think you are probably taking a big risk, correct?

No top to the crib. I was only concerned with the underlying surface. But obviously, this may not be enough.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Any and all Lithium technologies have the same potential for thermal runaway (a Thermal run away situation refers to a FIRE or a condition where an increase in temperature (poor cell construction techniques and or materials, physical damage, shorts internal or external, high discharge et al) changes the conditions in a way that causes a further increase in temperature leading to a destructive result). Yes charge/discharge protection devices minimize the risks associated thereof outside sources (shorts and charger/user shortcomings), however other considerations exist such as physical damage to the cell and or battery, internal shorts and elevated operating temperatures to name a few. So be careful, there are many documented cases of Lithium cell failures ultimately with fire ensuing. 

Lithium-Ion cells also incorporate a mechanical device known as a PTC, this device helps protect the cell by opening the electrical path and venting gases much like a safety release or pop-off valve. The PTC affords protection from internal cell failures or shortcomings and outside influences such as temperature. 

It’s a GOOD idea to have a fire extinguisher present and near your charging and operations area just to be safe! A Halon extinguisher is recommended to quail the fire, while water based fire fighting methods are used to cool the cells to help prevent additional cells from disintegrating. 

An ancillary electronic protection device cannot stop disintegration once a single cell or cells are in a thermal runaway mode. Nothing can stop thermal run away once triggered a small explosion is not uncommon either. 

A charging station vault or enclosure is well suited to protect your home/shop. There are many materials that would serve well; Hardie Board is one of them since it’s comprised primarily of sand with some cement and fiber. The idea is to completely enclose the battery, locomotive or trailing car. 

Regards, 
Michael Glavin


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## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

I charge mine in a hardiboard box, sometimes, but it just sits overtop of the loco/tender to prevent flame spread and spray. To be honest I wouldn't be heart broken if my garage burnt down, but thats another story. My question is this; I just read through the charging instructions for my new laptop, which has a Li Ion battery. Nowhere does it state that it needs to be charged in a flame proof box. The battery is in a small plastic case which can't be anymore fire resistant than the shell of my tender. Same thing with my cellphone, Li Ion battery no flame proof encloser recommended. Granted the cell phone battery is smaller but the laptop battery is darn near the same thing. So, why the difference? Do they think us DIYers are gonna kill ourselves? Or are they just being over cautious? Just about everyone owns a cellphone lots of people own laptops you can't tell me they all read the instructions and charge them exactly the way they are supposed to. My wife leaves her cell phone and once in awhile the laptop plugged in for days. The actual number of fire related incidents compared to actual number of devices owned is very low. As far as mishandeling, my poor cell phone has been through **** and back again, it's been dropped from high and low heights, (by high i mean over 60') it is out in the freezing cold and rain and has had the front screen melted off. The screen was replaced but it has the same battery, and no problems. I am by no means saying that this is right. I would assume that Lithium technology is the same. My phone doesn't have some "special" expensive battery in it, I would guess it has the cheapest battery that would pass their standards. So why can one battery be abused and the other need to be treated like gold? Again, I am not saying to do this, I still (usually) practice safe charging methods with my trains, but it just makes me stop and think. 

Terry


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Terry, 

Good questions, several reasons come to mind cell phones, laptops and the like have integral dedicated devices all of which are not necessarily user controlled thus eliminating end user interaction. That said there are many stories of laptop and cell phone melt downs out there (due a search on Google). The Lithium technology learning curve was pushed hard; many OEM’s had failure modes and massive recalls ensued… And cell phones use a single cell Li-Po’s, so the potential is reduced due to single cell count. Laptops as you suggest are similar to our uses in great numbers too. Something that’s not mentioned often like many things in our world you get what you pay for, in an effort to reduce cost some manufacturers use the minimal specified material quality and or quantity to reduce cost and possibly weight, the end result is cells with higher internal failure modes. 

I suspect there are those out there that are represented in small numbers that simply don’t heed safe handling advice and ramble along with nary a worry, its these individuals that do it there way that know more than the Engineers that design and test this kind of stuff that present concern IMO. Stuff happens!!! 

Lithium cell technology is safe; you just cannot become complacent with this stuff! We should all be aware of the proper safe care and feeding of our lithium batteries as well as the potential for failure modes. 

Regards,
Michael Glavin


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Del....here ya go....videos of Li-ion and LiPo packs catching fire. THIS is why I was asking the question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeWq6rWzChw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0M-ZX2DBxY

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3690260570423705609&ei=eOS6SbGgI5GgqgKU_7GTCg&q=lithium+ion+battery+fire&hl=en

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4_SP62E-zU


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I certainly believed you Mike. But yes, these videos are very enlightening! I guess I'll be building a box for my charging station. Better safe than sorry. In our situation (charging train batteries), who knows what combination of battery cells and chargers will come together. The little Chinese guy on the web page says its OK, but is it really? 

But what about all the laptops laying around the house? Not really practical to charge them in a box. I guess they are in a more controlled environment, as far as mating the proper charger to the battery pack. And then it comes down to statistics ... yes it has happened in the past, but what are the odds now? Everything has risk associated with it. The question is ... how much?


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Michael Glavin on 03/13/2009 3:50 PM
{snip...}[/i] Lithium cell technology is safe; you just cannot become complacent with this stuff! We should all be aware of the proper safe care and feeding of our lithium batteries as well as the potential for failure modes. _{snip...}_ 


That's why every demolitions instructor I ever had while in the U.S.M.C. drilled it into our heads "Familiarity breeds contempt, don't take things for granted, else what's left of ya' gets planted"


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Just did a check on the Hardie board website and found this about fire resistance: Hardie Board

Looks like it is rated for 1-hour fire resistance. This should be a pretty good material to use on a charging box, especially since many of us already have this stuff and know how to work with it. But there may be better stuff out there. They mention Type X, fire-rated gypsum?


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Del, 

Type "X" gypsum is fire rated gypsum board or sheet rock. Rated G.B. is resistant to fire not impervious. UL has "listed construction assemblies" that are designed to hold fire back for 1-hour. My company builds 1-hour rated equipment rooms regularly typically it requires two layers of 5/8 “X” G.B. sandwiched over wood or sheet metal studs or members much like typical wall construction. 

I’d suggest the Hardie Board is a better approach in of itself… 

Regards, 
Michael Glavin


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## kcndrr (Jan 7, 2008)

Been charging all mine (6) on my work area desktop since they have been out. 2 Aristo chargers and 6 Aristo li-ion 22.5-volt batteries.
All my batteries are removable so I can just swap them out for loco when needed.
Most are set up in parallel for longer run times. I use the diode so they don’t back feed each other

Never had an issue.

KC


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

How about using a rural mailbox? The jumbo ones (T3 sized) are 2' D x 1' W x 15" H so they'd hold a good sized car, tender, or smaller engine. Smaller mailboxes would easily hold the battery and charger. You'd have to put some kind of latch on the door to keep it shut if there was a fire.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Mike, 

A mailbox sounds interesting. But to be honest I like the idea of removing the batteries best… I got in the habit of pulling batteries and will likely continue with Lithium. 

KC, 

The “diode” is wired into a harness or on the batteries? Not sure why you’d need a diode, are you concerned about cross charging? 

Regards, 
Michael Glavin


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## kcndrr (Jan 7, 2008)

Diode is wired into each of the battery feed wires before parallel hookup, two or more batteries wired in parallel need to have same charge on each, if not the battery higher charged battery will try to charge lower charged battery an bring it up to equal charge, and this can damage the batteries.
Greg E did a lot of explaining about this.

KC


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

KC 

Thanks for sharing. I thought cross charging was likely the reason for the diodes... I've done a bunch of testing to validate or not cross charging myself, I'm going to ponder cross charging for train applications and start new thread with some questions. 

Regards, 
Michael


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## CapeCod1 (Jan 9, 2008)

In Re: Li-Ion laptop computer batteries catching fire.: A year or so ago (?) Toshiba issued a recall of some of their laptops because of a class-action suite against them claiming fires were not uncommon due to the Li-Ion batteries and the charging circuits. As I recall the Settlement was that Toshiba offered us $1000 towards the purchase of a new laptop (you had to return your old laptop to them) or a $500 check if you kept your old unit. I kept my old one. I do know that mine gets VERY HOT when I recharge the battery pack , so I keep it isolated from anything that might be flammable. 
"Some more fuel for the fire, eh?"


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CapeCod1 on 04/07/2009 7:11 PM
I do know that mine gets VERY HOT when I recharge the battery pack , so I keep it isolated from anything that might be flammable. 
"Some more fuel for the fire, eh?" 





It sounds to me like you need to purchase a better charger. It sounds like it is charging at a very fast rate without the proper protection. Are you supposed to be using a temperature probe with it? What charger are you using?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would guess the charger is built into the laptop itself, and the ac "brick" is only a dc power supply... that's how most are made, so changing the charger is not possible. 

Regards, Greg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 04/07/2009 7:30 PM
I would guess the charger is built into the laptop itself, and the ac "brick" is only a dc power supply... that's how most are made, so changing the charger is not possible. 

Regards, Greg

Thought he was talking about charging train batteries.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, he was talking about his computer...

"In Re: Li-Ion laptop computer batteries catching fire.: A year or so ago (?) Toshiba issued a recall of some of their laptops because of a class-action suite against them claiming fires were not uncommon due to the Li-Ion batteries and the charging circuits. As I recall the Settlement was that Toshiba offered us $1000 towards the purchase of a new laptop (you had to return your old laptop to them) or a $500 check if you kept your old unit. I *kept *my old one. I do know that *mine *gets VERY HOT when I recharge the battery pack , so I keep it isolated from anything that might be flammable. 
"Some more fuel for the fire, eh?""

So that's why I responded that the charger for the laptop is built into the laptop, and is also usually the source of the heat, not the batteries...

Regards, Greg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Yes Greg. I understand.


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## KVBarkley (Jan 9, 2009)

IIRC from the last Apple Battery recall, I think that laptop batteries are held to higher mfg. tolerances to prevent the metal particles that cause fires.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Posted By KVBarkley on 04/20/2009 5:49 PM
IIRC from the last Apple Battery recall, I think that laptop batteries are held to higher mfg. tolerances to prevent the metal particles that cause fires. 

I'd be surprised if this were true seen to many laptop batteries. For the most part they use the same Lithium-Ion cells we do. And it’s not the cells that are at fault generally speaking it’s the charger and or charging regimen in play. But as you note mitigating the quantity and size of the floating metal particles is an appreciable plus.

Regards, Michael


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## KVBarkley (Jan 9, 2009)

Maybe it is like 10% resistors. Don't buy a bunch of 20% hoping to pick out the 10%ers. The mfg's have already done it. The cells with lower metal content go (at a premium price) to the laptop mfg's and the rest go to knockoff batteries and on the open market.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hello Mike, 

This is Rick from, "Cordless Renovations." We manufacture two types of battery-cars, the first is our new CR-1 Smart Charger that sits right in your Gondola, Box-Car, or Tender and can charge three different types of battery chemistries - NiCd, Nimh, & Lithium-Ion batteries from 7.2V - 22.2V. We designed it with the Aristocraft Train Engineer circuit board, the CR-1, and one 14.8V @ 5200mah Lithium-Ion battery-pack. The second is the CR-2 Smart Charger. . . the CR-2 charges two NiCd or Nimh battery-packs from 12V to 18V. We designed our display model so it can operate/charge two diesel motors with two 3800mah Nimh battery-packs. Both units are designed to be taken off the track at night and plugged into our desktop wall transformer (included) and charged overnight so its ready for you the next day. That a look at our website, and if you have any questions or if we can be a service to you. . .please give me a call: www.cordlessrenovations.com


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Hi, 

Meet the real experts at the beginners forum http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/23/aft/105434/afv/topic/Default.aspx 

Daimler / Mercedes will offer their first Lion or Lipo battery car next spring. I suppose, you will not need a bomb proof shelter to charge it. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## Ross (Jul 19, 2009)

Seems to me that a lot of the Lith Ion/poly battery fires have been with the model aircraft crowd. Remember, the aeromodellers really suck the battery power when doing aerobatics. Is it any wonder the battery gives up on a charge and catches fire? I have a helicopter modeller friend and he has charged/recharged his Liths over 100 times. No fires..no problems. But then..he flies his models in a sedate manner - no aeros..3D ops etc., ..no frenetic flying like a demented bumble bee. Boring? To some..yes.

After all. The Liths were not made for RC modelling they were for gentle space instruments supply voltage! If people will abuse them then expect problems.

Many who use the Lith Ion or Poly types do not even understand the technology of these batteries.

It would seem to be a good investment to buy a few Liths and swop over when necessary. Do not run them right to the end. Know what the rules are for max/min voltage of the Lith types (in other words..read the leaflets and follow them)!!

I will say however ....just in case -

An old ammo box is a good charging station/storage even when using the latest types of so called safe Liths (i.e.. they go lower on voltage than the others and can be overcharged without problems. 

Make sure you have the right set and do not mix types, as one day you could make a mistake and overcharge the wrong type


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I've got a burn-out oven, good up to 6,000 degrees... 

Tell you what, I'll rent time in it for your battey charging! 

I'll stick with NiMH and smaller trains. 

John


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

This whole discussion makes one wonder if these are really a good idea. I understand that many people are having good luck with them. My question is "will I be lucky or not?" I am not willing to risk $600 worth of engine, radio and sound units on these batteries.

The other negative is that when I NiCad or NiMh cell dies, it does so over a relatively small length of time. When a lithium cell, with protective circuit board, dies, it does so abruptly. If your batteries are built into the locomotive, you will have to carry it back to the charger instead of running it back to the barn as it dies.


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

I guess we need to investigate how many Li-On related incidents have occurred with train people, if any.....


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## Ross (Jul 19, 2009)

Truthman. . . That's a good idea.


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

When a lithium cell, with protective circuit board, dies, it does so abruptly. 

How many users in this forum actually have experireance on their garden railroad with Lipos or Li-Ions? most of the time, these are used, when space is limited. Most garden railway locos offer enough space for trditional battery Power. 

Our locos have lipo warners installed. Either a buzzer or a red light. There is alway enough time to drive them home. OK, we only have a small layout, the furthest possible point would be about 360 feet away. Still I can´t remember ever having to carry a li-po loco home. 

Quite a few livesteam locos gave up in the middle from nowhere. We had to send a battery loco over to tow it away. Or blocked the rails for at least ten minutes, while building up steam again. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

With a 4.4 amphour battery on board, I have yet to have one go flat in the middle of an operating session. The day I was open for the Garden Railway Convention tours, I started my LiIon pack powered loco at 10:30 in the morning, and it was still going strong at 5pm that afternoon! That's continuous running, too. No starts or stops, which is unusual for my operating. I put it on charge after I was done, and ran it again on Thursday for the MLS get together. Ran solid from 3ish to probably 9ish when we called it a day. Typically, I'm running for three or four hours, starting and stopping along the way, and I usually top the battery off once I'm done running so it's charged for next time. (Something I couldn't get my NiMH batteries to let me do.) 

On my line, there's no "roundhouse" to go limping back to, so if the batteries go flat and I can't just swap them out, I've got to pick the loco up and carry it back into the house anyway. 

Later, 

K


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hello Mike, 

My company, "Cordless Renovations," manufacturers a charger called; "CR-1 Smart Charger" that charges NiCd/Nimh/Lithium-Ion & Lithium-Polymer batteries from 7.2V - 22.2V right from your existing Box-Car, Tender, or Gondola. Here is a link to our website, www.cordlessrenovations.com then click on Garden Railway Products. If you have any questions after you visit our website, please give me a call. 

Rick Isard, owner 
Cordless Renovations


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Rick. 
Does that charger take into account protection IC's that go "to sleep" because the voltage did not fully cut off? 

When the circuits "go to sleep" because of too low battery voltage, they have to be "woken up" again before accepting a charge. Can your charger wake them up before pumping a charge into the battery pack? 
If you can solve that little problem you will have a winner.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hi Tony, 
Yes, the CR-1 is designed to open the circuit at 2.5V per cell during discharge, (sleep mode) then close the circuit once the charger is in the "Charge Mode," a Green LED light will turn on for three seconds (closing the switch) then switch to Red (Charging) to start the charging process. All of our chargers are manufactured this way, and all of our battery-packs are manufactured with a Thermostat and Polyswitch for NiCd/Nimh packs & a PCB board with thermal cutoff for Lithium-Ion & Polymer battery-packs. 

I hope this answers your question. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I read the instruction manual.... so you leave the battery connected to the charger at all times? That way it does the open circuit to the battery when you get down to 2.5v / cell? 

Why are there 2 separate external outputs instead of one, convenience, or are they separately protected? 

The thermostat in your packs must communicate along the 2 wires from the pack? I assume you are using one of those TI chips to do this? 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Rick. 
Unfortunately leaving the battery pack permanently connected to the charger is not an option when the pack is in something like the LGB # 50 D&RGW 2 axle diesel. 

What I need is a plug in charger that can detect the battery pack has overdischarged and take care of the situation.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hello Greg, 

Yes, the whole purpose of leaving the battery connected to the charger is so you can remove the Box-Car, Tender, or Gondola from your track...take it inside...and charge it overnight while you sleep. The CR-1 has an automatic shut-off and will not overcharge your battery. The two external outputs are for additional lights and or sound cards, and yes convenience for the user. Each Thermostat in our NiCd/Nimh packs is a 70 degree heat sensitive Klixon 7S thermistor and is welded inline to the negative side of battery-pack and does not need a separate outline wire. 

I hope this answers your questions. 
Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hello Tony, 

The CR-1 or our new CR-2 (Coming out with a Month) can also be used as a desktop charger and not connected or housed within the Box-Car. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

OK Rick. 

Will it/can it detect an over discharged battery that has "gone to sleep" and "wake it up" before successfully recharging it?


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hi Tony, 

Yes...but, I would not recommend purchasing any battery-pack without a protection circuit built within the battery-pack. What happens when the CR-1 detects a overdischarged battery is, the Red/Charge LED light will start to flash RED...indicating an problem with the battery-pack. The RED/Charge LED will continue to flash until the CR-1 brings the battery back to nominal voltage...at this point the CR-1 will charge at 1 amp until it reaches a full charging cycle. If the CR-1's Gas Gauge only indicates a 60% charging cycle then two things have happened...First, this maybe a new battery-pack and needs to run through 3 - 5 charging cycles before it reaches it's full potential...2nd, or if it's an experienced / older battery-pack...then the 60% charging cycle indicates that the battery lost 40% of it's electrolytes and will no longer hold a full charge. 

I hope this answers your question, 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you for the advice Rick. 

This thread has taken over another from thread where I had rasied the question of suitable protection circuits and where Mike Reilley had made a suggestion that one way around protection circuits that do not fully shut off (except for the very small overhead drain), was to have a charger that could detect that situation and compensate for it. Hence the questions. 
If your charger does do that I will seriously consider it as a possibility if my battery supplier cannot fit more appropriate protection circuitry.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hey Tony, 

Don Sweet has purchased and sold our charger with your RCS system and installed it into their clients Tender's, Box-Cars and Gondola's. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Rick. 
I meant as a possibility to use with the Li-Ion battery packs I can get here. 

With respect. As nice and efficient as your charger is, by the time I pay freight to get your charger to Australia, it becomes too expensive for Ni-Cd and Ni-Mh cells.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Tony, 
Let's see . . . I'll check out the price for shipping with the big three or maybe I just send you one for a demo? But your right, it won't be cost effective. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Rick. 

Don says they are very good. So I will be glad to pay for a sample. 
If it is OK for what I need then I can include it in the RCS and BELTROL price lists and order as needed.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Tony, 

Sure that is not a problem...and thanks Don...Tony if you email me your address at: [email protected] then I will send you one in the mail. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations


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