# Going Green in 2011



## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I am in the process of purchasing my retirement house and will need too Start over again with the Rail Road. At the new house there will be extensive work to be done in the yard to get what I want. After much thought and recording many of my lessons learned from my previous layouts, I decided to go GREEN. My ultimate goal is run everything on my layout with no house hold power and strictly use the natural elements to provide power. This will take me around 2 years to complete and I would love to hear and ideas that you all have. 
For those of you who have followed my threads in the past you can expect the same step by step progress. Because this is such an extensive endeavour I may even have to start a new web site. I will also need to come up with a new name for my rail road. I have from now till after Christmas to do my research. Most of my power will be solar and the layout will be raised this time. I plan to include a sprinkler system many lights and upgrade too DCC.

What do you think of a Green Garden Rail Road?


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well this does depend on your location... Here in the Peak District Solar power would be very debatable -but Wind power not so! Matthew has a solar recharger for his battery packs for his R/C cars. Thus battery electric via solar is proven even in these climes (57 deg North). I use battery and steam locos rather than mains fed power for ease of use (and it does rain rather a lot around here). The summer house has a "bolt on" Solar Cell array and it charges a 45Ah 12V battery -sufficient for a radio and lights -and once a day a cup of tea. The problem you have is that most of the stuff you are used to using will be highly "parasitic" of your stored power supply. You are going to have to play "shuffle board" with what you want and how much power it takes to do it. 

It would seem to be do-able but you will need to use 12V solar cells and then "split charge" a 12+12Volt battery of at least 100Ah capacity -less if you get a dedicated Solar charger system for it (Velleman make a good one). 

Good Luck with your research!!! 

regards 

ralph


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Good luck on your conversion. Just hope it is cost effective after buying all new hardware. As long as you do not have a large amounts of motive power you may come out on the long run. Later RJD


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## tmtrainz (Feb 9, 2010)

When I read this my first thought was of this Marklin Z-Scale set. Here's a link to a page with some pics and video:

http://www.z220.org/layouts/solar.shtml

There's a solar panel built in to the top of the case. In the video you will see the lid propped up to capture light. 

Anyway, just look at this and scale it up a lot. Have fun, and we'll be watching for progress.

Tom


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Someone started a thread on doing exactly this, but then he stopped posting. You can find it in the builder's log section. 

I wonder which would be more efficient--charging individual battery packs, and leaving the track "dead," or energizing the track itself from a big battery? It seems to me that you'd gain a lot by not having to do the DC to AC and back to DC conversion--just have the solar panel charge a big bank of batteries, and connect those to the track. Charging individual battery packs would involve converting the DC from the panel to AC and then charging the batteries with DC, as I understand it, and there are efficiency losses at every step. . 


Seems to me this would be a very expensive proposition, but I applaud your idea. If I had some extra dough, I'd try it myself.


In the thread I mentioned, there was a link and to and pictures of a club somewhere in the south that had a solar powered display layout.


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

There are a few ways of doing this and I am investigating a couple.


One is to charge each battery individually using a solar panel then connect the two in series to get 24v to the track. I can do this through a switching unit. I will need too see how much running time I can get using two deep cycle batteries. This will also reduce losses as I will not have too invert to AC to charge the batteries. 

Sunforce 60W Solar Power Backup Kit









Sunforce Charge Controller










The second way is to invert to AC and charge an AC output supply like this one.NOMA Back-up Power System, 400W


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Lets see what the cost comes to do do this. Should be interesting. Later RJD


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I do not plan on going super cheap on this project as I would like the flexibility to expand as I go. That being said I will not be breaking the bank. I want too keep it simple and use products that are easy to obtain. I also should add that this will take longer than a few months too accomplish. I am doing this for a few reasons. I want to show my kids that using alternative power is a positive choice and encourage creativity. I also want my Garden Rail Road too not be conventional. Most layouts and projects that I have enjoyed viewing in this forum that impressed me were those that are creative and out of the normal. 

If any of the forum members that have attempted this want too share there experience feel free.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well you sure can say its out of the normal. I will watch this creation with interest to see how you do. Later RJD


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

I would recommend the direct power method... inverting to AC and then charging that batter pack is going to have at least 4 parasitic loads... Solar DC -> AC to run the UPS. Inverted AC -> DC to charge the UPS batteries. Battery DC -> standard AC to run the outlets. Consumable AC -> Model railroad DC/DCC powerform.

I would think your first decision would be your DCC control system. Depending on the exact power requirements of the rail equipment, you'd be able to figure out what power grid design will require the least transformations. 


I am unfamiliar with DCC technology, but if you can supply 24v to the engines, your best bet might be to charge two deep cycle batteries, and then run fused 24v direct to the DCC system. 

Let us know what you decide. This promises to be an interesting project. As an aside.. I had thought about getting an electric mower and a few solar panels to charge the mower's batteries. Haven't determined if this is feasible in my locale yet though.


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

I just bought a Harbor Freight 45 watt solar system. I had such good luck with the 5 watt panels keeping my trap launcher batteries charged that I thought I would try a bigger system. It will give me light and keep my battery operated railroad running. Mostly for fun. Still working on the elevated railroad but that is another subject... 

russ


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

As JD said, minimize the number of "conversions". 

Two 12 volt batteries in series, charged by the solar cells. The 24v is a pretty ideal voltage to feed the DCC system. 

That's the lowest loss light >> electricity >> inverter/dc charger (which are pretty high efficiency >> 24v batteries. 

The extra step to go to 110v and then use the 110v powered DC charger in the UPS is pretty lossy. The UPS is not real efficient of electricity on the charging side. (discharge it's pretty good). 

I think it would work fine. 

Likewise, I would stay track power... 

Regards, Greg


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

Since solar panels produce 12 volts, if you have a 24 volt system, you will need to wire two panels in series in order to generate this voltage. To wire panels in series, simply connect the positive terminal of one to the negative terminal of the other. Next, connect the remaining positive and negative terminals to their corresponding terminals in the input of the regulator and away you go!


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

Again, depending on the system you want to consider...
If you want to go onboard battery, i think the best option would be a "charging track".. you pull onto a section of track that is isolated, and using an onboard charging circuit, charge your your batteries using the pure 24v "main" power from the batteries. (Fused of course).


The options are endless. In short, pretty much anything electrical can be done. Its just a matter of deciding how to do it logically.

If it was me, (I'd be using non-DCC RC w/onboard batteries) I would first decide on my engine batteries and charging circuit. If possible, using a 12v system would allow, in addition to the locomotive "fuel" it could also power a 12v outdoor lighting system as well as a standard automotive inverter in case I NEEDED some 110ac at the railroad. Otherwise a 24v "mains" for the charging system.


Eitherway, I would do everything possible to avoid inversion to AC if possible. Part of the benefits of battery is the removal of the 110ac connection to the railroad, reducing the danger of rogue voltages.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I read the manuals, the sunsaver people make one that will go to a 24 volt battery, so you can put the two 12 volt batteries in series and charge them that way... looks like a good product... 

I can't quite figure out the difference with the "L" suffix... 

Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

The batteries pictured above are wired in parallel... 12VDC 

What’s the advantage of going to a 24V system, two batteries in series can provide 24V. 

12VDC is all you need to feed battery chargers. 

Battery/RC/DCC it’s all good. 

Any wind in your future? 

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

track powered, 24v ideal... set up system for 24v, his train controllers run right off the batteries, perfect voltage 

Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Ahh Greg, I get it 24V track voltage is ideal, why a 24V solar system? Is there a reason to go here, I mean with the MONSTROUS RV/Marine market you don't need to reinvent the wheel... A couple of 12VDC batteries are all you need for hours and hours of run time I suspect. Perhaps its moot but a 24V system is not likely well represented in the scheme of things. 

I had a motorhome a few years ago with a solar-battery-inverter system that would run the AC's and all, its a strech in comparison but the technoloigy is highly evolved at 12V. 

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm not an expert in solar systems, but if you want to have the lowest losses, I would think that 24v input will be more efficient to charge 24 volt batteries... 

The systems for 24v seem to be common. 

Upconverting to AC will have some loss, and would be unnecessary. 

Regards, Greg


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I have started bringing up my layout and packing it away. It is taking some time as I am washing everything as I go as it will not be out for over a year. The new layout will be very different and easier to use. It may seem early to bring things in for the winter but I will not be home in Nov so time is limited.


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

The recommendations by jgallaway81 & Greg are spot-on! You are on the right track with solar power. 

Sealed, deep-cycle batteries are ideal: low (or no) maintenance and long life. A couple of solar manufacturers I chatted with recently stated that their sealed gel-cell batteries are expected to last 12-15 yeras or longer, depending upon how/where they are stored. Also, you don't have so many critical venting requirements with sealed batteries vs. traditional lead-acid batteries. 

Be careful of wind power: your tower will need to be at least 60 feet off the ground (or more) to avoid the swirling winds prevalent near the ground (caused by structures, trees, fences, etc...); too much swirling wind currents & you will burn up the shaft bearings in no time. You will also need to run lots of heavy cabling up that tower and out to your charging unit(s). Most wind turbines require constant wind (and the ability to be able to turn directly into that wind direction) at a minimum rate (miles or KM per hour) before it will start generating a charge. Most wind turbines are generally inefficient and it is more cost-effective to go solar. 

Another option as a backup would be a propane-powered generator (most manufactured by Honda; very reliable), which is what many solar companies use here in the US West as a backup source of power for battery charging in solar-powered residential applications. 

You are definitely on the right track (pun intended) with your off-the-grid plans; self-sufficiency is always best and you will set a great example for your children. As well, they can learn quite a bit themselves as they help you install & maintain your "Green" system. Good luck & please keep us posted!


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I just gotta ask.... til you figure in the by products and pollution that come from the mining and smelting the heavy metals needed for the panels, the batteries, etc... how 'green' is it really?


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## CalsoRR (Oct 2, 2010)

I like the idea of going Green. I purchased 3 60 watt solar panels for my camping trailer and haven't once plugged into the grid for power or battery charging and it's been a year now along with 6 trips. I have used my solar panels to charge my RC heli and plane batteries with great results also and have converted my trains to battery power now. Once you get free green power you never go back but look for more things you can power....For Free....sorta of....the panels do cost . I would love to add wind power also but the city I live in won't permit it....I don't get it....everyone should be allowed free wind power...but they don't want a bunch of wind mills over every home...nope it's better to pay for polluting power source.


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

CalsoRR does a 60w solar panel charge a 12v deep cycle battery? 

I would like to try wind power some day but will start off small. This winter I will be designing my new layout. At the moment I am in the process of purchasing my retirement home. Once I am moved in I can make some head way. I will be making many changes in my next layout including a new name. There is so much too think about that it is overwhelming.


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## CalsoRR (Oct 2, 2010)

Posted By NavyTech on 26 Oct 2010 12:59 PM 
CalsoRR does a 60w solar panel charge a 12v deep cycle battery? 

I would like to try wind power some day but will start off small. This winter I will be designing my new layout. At the moment I am in the process of purchasing my retirement home. Once I am moved in I can make some head way. I will be making many changes in my next layout including a new name. There is so much too think about that it is overwhelming.


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I charge 2 RV deep cycle batteries with my solar panels. The Panels put out 17 volts (sunny sky's) and is regulated to 13.5 for charging by a solar converter. This allows me to fast charge or trickle which is good for deep cycle batteries. What I learned also was don't use the eBay(cheapies) panels there only 12v -14 volt panels and they only put out about 8-10v if there's any clouds or hazy sky's where my 17v panels still put out 14v. Wish you well with the new home and railroad . Scott


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Navytech, 

Being a boating guy, you should look around the boat/RV community forums. Boats, especially cruisers, are self-contained little homes, so they have power requirements like your green RR. My boat has a big 'house' battery good for an overnight running lights, refrigerators, etc., and a generator for heat, cooking, etc. 

Solar panels and wind turbines are very common ways to charge the batteries on a sailboat, which usually doesn't have a generator. In fact, there are at least 2 manufacturers of cruising boats that have extensive solar arrays on the roof and can travel purely on solar power if the sun is shining.


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I have researched a few options like boats and RV battery charging systems. Although there are many different ways of doing this, the basic principle is the same. Like anything it is just a matter of cost. My main goal here is too keep it simple and use what I can get my hands on easy. Much of what I am seeing on the internet looks nice and all but comes with a big price tag with shipping and all. 

Sometimes technoligy creates more problems than it is worth and having a state of the art solar power system for a train set is not realy important. 

Once this project gets under way I think you all will agree that it will be a creative project but not inovative.


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Hey Navy, 
I want to thank you for being the impetus of a new idea for me and my model building. I finished a small board and batten farmhouse and outbuldings this summer and plan on building the accompanying tobacco barn and a few other structures this winter. I will want my structures to have lights in them but was dreading messing with wiring them all up throughout the garden. I read your green power thread and it reminded me that I played around a lot this spring with solar garden lights for my deck railings this year now that you can buy basic single bulb solar lights for 4 bucks at a lot of stores and I decided to hide the solar cell on the roof of the farmhouse's outhouse with the NiMH battery inside the privy! Then all I have to do is run a wire under the mulch to the farmhouse and stick two leds inside it and voila! Hassle free, maintenance free electric lights inside my structures. The solar cell circuit boards on top of these lights are 2" in diameter but I will buy a few more to tinker with and see if you can trim them down a bit. Possibly to about 1.5" square. It should be relativley easy to hide something lke that near structures and the cell charges a AA NiMH cell and runs one LED all night long so it should run more than one LED for a few hours after dark.


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Picked up one of those garden lights at Lowe's yesterday for 3.50. After taking off the top lightshade and the lens and unscrewing the insides and popping the cell [hot glued] loose from the top of the light shade and cutting down the battery holder with a X-acto saw to slide it through the hole in the top of the light shade it all came out in a nice long assembly. I drilled the bottom of my model house and set the LED inside and it lights the house up great. The solar cell does not look like it can be trimmed down any but the wires could easily be extended and the cell hidden in the garden away from the model. 
Thanks again for the solar thread which gave me the idea!! I should be able to add plenty of light to my structures for 3.50 a pop without running wires under each building and making it easy to pick the buildings up and bring them in for the winter or reposition them easily in different locations.


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NavyTech on 14 Nov 2010 12:34 AM 
I have researched a few options like boats and RV battery charging systems. Although there are many different ways of doing this, the basic principle is the same. Like anything it is just a matter of cost. My main goal here is too keep it simple and use what I can get my hands on easy. Much of what I am seeing on the internet looks nice and all but comes with a big price tag with shipping and all. 

Sometimes technoligy creates more problems than it is worth and having a state of the art solar power system for a train set is not realy important. 

Once this project gets under way I think you all will agree that it will be a creative project but not inovative. 
I think you have a fantastic idea, and as you can tell already, it's inspiring to others. It's made me realize that when I finally get time to install my garden railway and re-landscape this house we just bought, I will be looking to LED spotlights throughout, and am already looking for ways to power the entire outdoor lightiing circuit (including the garden railway lighting) with solar power.

Don't forget those sales that some brick-and-mortar stores have, where you might be able to pick up some solar components at good savings: auto parts, hardware, RV supply, et al...

Great ideas, please keep them coming!


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I think that those individual solar lights are great. It is a very cheap way to get light on the layout without running wires. The other good thing is if they break it is just a matter of spending 5 bucks to replace it. Rip things apart and hot glue the guts any where you want. 

Many of the high end expensive layouts are nice and I give all of you that have them a big Bravo Zulu, great job. In my opinion I think it is time in this terrible econemy that more of us look for alternative cheaper ways to keep our layouts going so that we can spend more time enjoying it rather than worrying about saving enough money to get the next item on our list. 

I would love to see a new section of the forum open up for alternative ideas, power, controls, and etc. I would challenge everyone to take something that you are going to toss in the garbage and take it apart and try to use part of it to improve something on there layout. An example is Take apart a coffe machine and use the switch to turn lights on something or the filter holder for a roof of a structure. You would amaze yourself what you can come up with.


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

What a great idea! For years I've salvaged old electronic items when they've outlived their usefulness; old VCRs were especially loaded with springs, cogs, gears, etc. that are useful for modeling. And if I could salvage a still-usable rocker switch, BONUS! I'd even find uses for the sheet-metal housings, as it could be cut with tin snips and easily manipulated. 

Walmart & other discount stores often have plastic organizing bins to keep these salvaged parts readily available for use and/or storage. 

Great idea!


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

There is an alternative approach to being green. That is to do it indirectly. When it comes down to it, the garden railway really does not consume THAT much power as compared to many other household devices. Especially lighting. You can always reduce your "carbon footprint" via readily available alternatives for household uses and then power your train layout right from the grid (which can be low-impact power depending on how it is generated). Do the math before you invest $$ in an untested assemblage of technologies. Unless you are just curious and trying the green thing more as a hobby. Or if you are truly OFF the grid in which case you have likely already invested huge sums in alternative power sources.


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

Going green is not always about reducing cost. I think it is more of using alternative choices not having to be less dependant one big brother to provided you with power. You are right that the products are out there already, all I am saying is I feel it is better to use these alternative devices and ideas rather than just plug it into the grid. I am not implying that everyone should do this but rather think about the impact and make a conscious choice. I do not believe that going green will save me big money or make my layout any better than anyone else's. I do believe that it is a better environmental choice.


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

Now that I am in my new house and everything is coming together, I have chance too have a closer look at the back yard and see what the challenges I will have to contend with. Not only does the back yard have a heavy slope but everything that is wood is rotting. It looks like it will end up being a gut job with some sort of retaining wall as well. I will canvas my friends and see if I can accumulate some free rock and maybe some free labour this summer. I may have to start a new thread and do this in several stages. 

The first stage will be the levelling of the yard. 
The Second stage will be the Eco shed construction 
The Third stage will be raised layout bed


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