# Scale identification



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I wish to know if the following are 1/29 scale and have the same type knuckle couplers as an Aristo Craft 2 8 8 2 mallet. 
ARISTO-CRAFT Delton C-16 Denver Rio Grande, 
Aristo-Craft? Great Northern REA-42151 The Caboose


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Are you looking to purchase the second two items?

How would you know if they had the original couplers.

I would not let the couplers determine if I was going to make a purchase.

Put Kadees on all rolling stock.


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## Sjoc78 (Jan 25, 2014)

The C-16 is 1:24 scale but as far as if it has the same couplers as other Aristocraft items I can only assume that it does since Aristocraft wouldn't have needed to use Delton's couplers when they picked up the molds and the couplers weren't nescearily compatible between the brands.

The REA line is the Aristocraft predecessor and was mainly done 1:29ish. Eventually REA was rebranded as Aristoraft but I think it was always a Polk product, and was just a name change keeping all things including the couplers equivalent.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

From my experience, AristoCraft knuckle couplers do not play nicely with anybody else's knuckle couplers. When I get an AristoCraft car or engine the first thing I do is cut them off and replace them with body mounted Kadees (830) or if it requires surger,y I mount Kadee #831s on the truck tongue. Those are full offset up. This is then at the correct height for body mounted couplers.

Chuck


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

They should all couple with each other. Aristo used to include Delton couplers with the Classics Freight cars (hook n loops, Deltons and Aristos were in the box), but I think the new issue of the C-16 didn't have the Deltons. Mine came with the long caboose and they coupled together ok.
I just run trains and the Aristos are ok for me, but I accept the need to slam them together. If you want to switch out cars the KDs will make life easier.
John


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

No problem with couplers, thats good.
So Aristo-Craft made both 1/29 and 1/24 scales, that complicates things a bit for me. 
I am more interested in 1/29 since I have the Mallet, I have also 1/22.5 LGB cars for my LGB locos, and 1/20.3 Bachmann cars for my Shay. 
I prefer for the moment not to have yet another variation of the G scale. The C-16 is out of the question for the moment since the idea was to have another loco in the exact same scale as the mallet. I have allready an Aristocraft kabose that I use with the mallet as can be seen on my thread "amateur video of a mallet" I think it looks too small, the one I am considering looks more the right size and it is a Great Northern caboose, my mallet is also a Great Northern. I have also bought two Aristocraft passenger cars , I hope they are 1/29 and not 1/24, I know perhaps it will look ok even if the scale is not exact but I do want to try for the exact scale for the mallet.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I have one of that style in B&O and I think that is is fine with my Mallet. Remember that it will be several to many cars behind the engine, so size comparison with the adjacent cars is probably more important than with the engine. It is 1:29 and matches nicely with my 1:29 freight cars. 

It may be a little short, but the height and width seem fine to me. Whether or not the GN actually had that caboose would have to be researched. If they didn't, that could be a problem if you are only interested in models of an actual car used by the GN.

Otherwise I think it would be fine.

Chuck

Here is a picture of the AristoCraft caboose in the foreground, with an LGB (1:?) behind it, and a 1:20.3 caboose (Accucraft) in the back.

I think that the LGB caboose is exceptionally large for 1:29 if that is what it is supposed to be.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB scales varied, but was seldom/if ever 1/29. 
THe C-16 is a small engine. Even though it is scaled 1/24 it will still look small next to the Mallet, which was a big engine.
Look at a real freight train, the cars vary in size a lot, length and height.
Most of Aristo is/was 1/29 scale. The Delton stuff they picked up was 1/24.
Kadee couplers are the only way to go. Start early, then pick up some every time you buy some cars. You want metal wheels also.
THis can get confusing, so look around, ask questions. Forums are a good place to pick up info.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, I have a number of LGB's standard gauge freight cars (box and reefer) from the steam/diesel transition era and they are very close in length to similar cars from USAT and AristoCraft which are supposed to be 1:29. I can't say the same for their F7 A and B units and their streamliners, which scale out differently whether you are measuring length, height, or width (or so I have been told).

I have measured LGB' s narrow gauge freight cars and assuming they are based on a 30' D&RGW car, they are a lot closer to 1:24 than 1:22.5.

Chuck


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

If your Aristo cars have Bettendorf or other modern truck (wheel bogie/assembly) they will be 1/29. All the Classic 1/24 cars were on Archbar trucks. They were discontinued several years before they folded.
The C-16 would accurately depict a smaller older engine in 1/29. It has a nice belt drive.
John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Aristo caboose is probably not the best example in a scale comparision, it's one of the few items they have made that is really not an accurate scale model of a particular prototype. Also, being the first car they ever made, the scale is somewhat in question. See below:

From Lewis Polk:
1988 - "Periodically, I get e-mails about discussions on other websites and they want my opinion. The most recent one asked about our Long Steel Caboose, which is the first product we ever made. This was some 24 years ago that we designed it and introduced it in 1988. At that time our direction was to be a toy train company and we were making a scale popularized by Lionel (trade mark of the Lionel corporation) in the first part of the century. Our partner at the time under our REA trademark was Bill Lamping and he wanted to make his favorite Lionel caboose. This was the model for our first product, not a scale model of a real caboose." (Lewis Polk, Aristo-Craft forum 03-05-2010, 11:38 AM)

Regards, Greg


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

chuck n said:


> I have measured LGB' s narrow gauge freight cars and assuming they are based on a 30' D&RGW car, they are a lot closer to 1:24 than 1:22.5.
> Chuck


So too are some of Bachmann's Big Hauler cars. Closer to 1:24 although perhaps shortened.
The Aristo Classic boxcar (1:24) is smaller again so I'm not sure what is going on there. 

Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew, in my earlier posts on this subject I included, Bachmann, USAT, and Delton (later AristoCraft) as being 1:24. I didn't think it was necessary to being in the other manufacturers here.

Chuck.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck, you didn't mention Bachmann or Delton. Whether my comment is necessary? Just info that perhaps is relevant to some regarding scale and what is on the shelf. 

Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I was not referring to this thread. Over the past several years I have commented on most "Colorado narrow gauge cars" and similar cars from other RRs are closer to 1:24. In those posts I have mentioned the other manufacturers. That is why when ever I talk about scales I use 1:22.5/24 for this intermediate scale between 1:20.3 and standard gauge scales of 1:29 and 1:32.

Chuck


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

It is a slightly odd scale region as you say 1:22.5/1:24 ish. Perhaps a little out of vogue now but the scale really does have it's merits indoors and looks size right with the Euro stuff.

So chuck, why then is the Delton/Aristo Classic boxcar smaller than LGB or Bachmann cars if they scale close to 1:24? I no longer have one to measure but I'm sure it was smaller.

Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew, when I measured them, box cars, they were all within about a quarter of an inch around 14.5 inches in length. That put them closer to 1:24 than 1:22.5 for a 30' car. Delton was, at the time the only manufacturer who put a scale on the box, 1:24.

I'm away from home now, but I think I have access to similar cars and I'll measure them again.

Chuck


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck, Exactly 14.5" would make the Delton/Aristo 29ft in 1:24.
The Bachmann cars are 15.2" beam to beam which is a few inches over 30ft in 1:24.
Perhaps there was an obvious height difference. It was enough to easily notice but they were all a bit different anyway.

Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I only measured the length. The original Delton cars were a little lower than either the LGB and the USAT cars. I have no idea about the width.

Chuck


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Narrow gauge equipment varied a lot in size, so without a specific known prototype for any individual model, an "exact" scale is impossible to state. The same model box car could be _both_ 1:22.5 and 1:24, depending on which prototype you compare it to.

LGB's US-style narrow-gauge box car (4067) is based on a Southern Pacific prototype which was 28' long and 7' 8" wide. The small upper doors on the side of the car are a dead giveaway for its prototype. LGB's car measures 14.5" x 4", which puts it at 27' 2" x 7' 5" at LGB's "stated" scale of 1:22.5. LGB would use that identical frame for many other models if US narrow gauge heritage, one example being their stock car (4068). That model is identical in length, width, and height to the model of the SP box car. The prototype for that stock car is a D&RGW stock car measuring 30' long and 8' wide. LGB's model in 1:24 comes out to 29' x 8'. Same exact dimensions on the model, yet very close to their respective prototypes when measured in two different scales. 

Delton's (Aristo-Classic) box car is based on a D&RGW 30' prototype. Delton's stated scale was 1:24. Their car measurs pretty accurate for that car in 1:24, with the car being about the same width, but a touch lower and a bit longer than LGB's. I don't have exact measurements, but we run a mix of LGB and Delton box cars and reefers on my dad's railroad. The differences are subtle, but noticeable when coupled together in a train. 

USA's "1:24" box cars and reefers are virtual clones of LGB's cars in terms of size, but no narrow gauge railroad had composite box cars with steel ends, so there's clearly a bit of freelancing going on in the "prototype" department there. 

Bachmann's box car has no specific prototype. It was at one time purported to be loosely based on ET&WNC prototypes, though I have yet to see a photo of one that comes close. That, and the Tweetsie cars were all very long - 33' to 36' long! Here again, Bachmann would use the same frame for other models. Most of these other cars (flat, gon, tank, reefer) are similarly generic in terms of not being a model of any specific prototype, so it's difficult to ascribe any specific scale to the model. They're close to cars that ran on many railroads, though not specific to any of them. 

Bottom line for the Bachmann, LGB, et al stuff--pick a model, pick a scale, and you'll find a prototype to come very close. What's stated "on the box" is irrelevant, really. The real question is, what scale are _you_ modeling, and how close does it come for _your_ purposes? 

Later,

K


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks for the detailed explanation Kevin. Apart from the differences in prototypes, I recall when I had all three model boxcars, the LGB and Bachmann although slightly different in style/molds looked similar in scale/size but the Delton/Aristo Classic was noticeably smaller (maybe just the height). Sure there were different size prototype boxcars from different eras and manufacturers but to the unwary purchaser thinking they were buying the same scale may be disappointed when they get something different in size to what they were expecting. 

I find that this aspect of various prototypes and 'scales' in Large Scale modelling at times annoying but most interesting because some things work out almost just right when doing the unconventional. I went 1:20.32 for US prototypes but my long string of cheap Buddy L cars (same as Bachmann) are just fine for early era ones. Imperfectly perfect! 

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

My highest bid for the caboose was $30, I just found out it went for $40 a few hours ago, I'm surprised, I did not think it would go that high, I wish I had bought it because it was a Great Northern, better luck next time. I'm glad Chuck thinks the one I have looks O.K. Beautiful photo of the three cabooses in the snow. 
Thanks for the tip on how to distinguish the 1/29's from the 1/24's Totalwrecker. Good news is the two gorgeous REA Aristo-craft G Scale Pennsylvania Railroad passenger cars I bought last week have the Bedford type trucks. I think they'll look great with the mallet, I know it's not a loco meant for passenger cars but why not. 
About the C-16 I see TW is of the opinion that it is 1/29 while Sjoc believes it is 1/24. I gather it is not really so important in this case. However I think it's fun to make the mallet look gigantic because it really was and it has that look about it . So I don't want it near anything that looks big, the contrast with the 1/29 scale figures of people looks great , the wheels go almost to shoulder level. A loco of the same era depicting a very small loco in true 1/29 scale, so that it would look tiny but true to life next to the mallet would be nice. Something like the Aristocraft Pennsylvania Railroad 0-4-0 Steam Locomotive or a smaller loco?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

trainstrainstrains, you might like to read the PDF below regarding the history of Delton.

http://www.narrowgaugerails.com/David%20Fletcher/ThePhilJensenStory.pdf

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thank you, I'm looking forward to enjoying reading this. Mostly when I wake up in the middle of the night.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3

As a general rule, 1:20.3 and 1:22.5/24 freight and passenger cars are "wood sided", 1:29 and 1:32 are "metal" sided. The one exception (I think) is that Accucraft has some wood sided reefers that are either 1:29 or 1:32.

Another clue is that the narrow gauge freight cars (1:20.3 and1:22.5/24) have brake wheels that stand up above the roof, while the brake wheels are on the end of the cars on 1:29 and 1:32.

Most standard gauge cabooses have metal sides and most narrow gauge have wood sides. There may be some wood sided cabooses out there that are standard gauge.

You cannot rely on the railroad shown on the side of the car. Many manufacturers have put logos from standard gauge railroads on 1:22.5/24 cars.

Chuck


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Let me explain scale in my mind.
The best way to tell are the human appliances installed. Those are; the steps and hand rails. Oh and Cabs. You can see the differences on ladders on cars. In 1:32 the spaces are small and close to twice as big (I think, can't make the comparison) in 1:20.3.
In 1:24 and 1:29 the spaces are not as glaringly different. 
So was trying to say that the C-16 could pass for a smaller loco in 1:29. I'm happy to operate mine as a 1:24 loco.
Happy Rails
John (TW)


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Usually the 0-X-0 locos are yard engines or for local runs. I've read stories about railroaders dislike of them as road engines. They tended to hunt and waddle and slam about the faster they tried to go. So they made and broke trains in the yard.
Use the smaller one to tend to your brute. It collects the cars from the yard and adds them to the train for departure, the reverse on arrival.
John
PS: Not much smaller than an 0-4-0t... an 0-2-0t would fall over... no?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3

I don't worry too much about what my engines pull. I consider my RR a museum, tourist line and a short line that connects to mainlines. That way I can mix and match what I feel like running.

The short line runs standard gauge freight and passenger trains.

The tourist line handles Narrow and Standard gauge passenger trains and the museum brings out anything it wants to show the visitors, usually me.

I wouldn't worry about the mallet pulling a passenger consist. Here is a picture of my Mallet pulling some Aristo heavyweights. 










For the last few years I have brought out my Mallet and battery car to run trains in the Phoenix area on non powered layouts. Here are some pictures of my Mallet at the Sun City Grande club's layout. It is pulling my ABT (Adult Beverage Train). All but one car (red Coke) is a 1:24 sized car and the caboose is a 1:22.5 NENG kit.

Mixing scales with that engine didn't bother anyone that I know of.

The battery car is a short USAT box car.




































Chuck


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I have been informed that the Aristo-Craft 0 4 0 is 14 inches long, that would make it not so small for 1/29 , I'm still on holidays so I don't have acces to my trains but I believe my LGB Olomana 0 4 2 1/22,5 Is shorter than 14 inches. That is why I would like to know if there is a 1/29 loco shorter and generally smaller than the Aristo-Craft 0 4 0.

Looking at the size of the cab in proportion to the size of the loco it appears to me that a 1/29 Olomana 0 4 2 would be much smaller than the Aristocraft 0 4 0


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I have Chloe (same as Olomana) here in front of me at the moment. 
Beam to beam 9". Cow catcher tip to rear beam 10.25" aprox.
The LGB is far more 'petite' engine than the Aristo 0-4-0. Not a serious puller though. 

The LGB Chloe engine block probably has the shortest driver wheelbase for common Large Scale models (1.75" aprox).

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

If you are doing 1:29 and want more 'old time' stuff you will just have to use what is around in 1:24. Even though the 1:24 scale models are larger in scale they are usually smaller prototypes, typically narrow gauge. Technically an odd mix but it will all look fine together in my opinion. 

the small AristoCraft C-16 will look fine with big 1:29 engines but the Rogers even though marked as 1:29 looks more like 1:20. The AristoCraft 0-4-0 switcher is just... boring! 

I have a similar problem with automobiles in 1:20.32 so I just use small earlier prototypes from the range of 1:18 available so they don't look so big next to the trains. A 1:18 Cadillac will look too big though. 
It all works out if you don't count the rivets!

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I have an LGB Olomana, same as Chloe, but I think the Cab looks gigantic next to the mallet's Cab. 
Looking at the size of the cab in proportion to the size of the loco it appears to me that a 1/29 Olomana would be much smaller than the Aristocraft 0 4 0 and as Garratt has confirmed, it is. Looking at the size of the cab the Aristo must have been about 4.5 meters tall and about 6.5 meters long and the Olomana without counting couplers or cowcatcher only 2.5 meters high and 4.5 meters long. Therefore and only approximately a 1/29 scale Olomana would be 8.6 cm (3.38 inches)tall and 15.5cm (6.5 inches)long, making a very nice contrast with the same 1/29 scale 28 inch long mallet. But as far as I know there is no such thing as a 1/29 scale Olomana. Is there? Perhaps it's drivers would look wrong, too far apart on G gauge track? I am being fussy, but I understand that is a privilege in this hobby.
There seems little to choose in 1/29 scale.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Olomana is 25.8" in length so the LGB model's length of 10.25" scales at about 1:30.
Models are often compressed or have a difference in scale height for various reasons.
Possibly LGB's Olomana/Chloe is scaled around 1:24/1:22 but shortened and a little higher to fit in with their other offerings and perhaps AristoCraft's Mallet is a little less than it should be in 1:29. It is probably the various differences between prototype and model dimensions and scale that give the result of the two locomotives being not as vastly different in size as one would expect. 

The picture below and the LGB model look proportionally close but I think the cab floor is higher on the model and so too is the cab height. I don't have a detailed plan with dimensions of the prototype locomotives so I can only guesstimate. It seems quite a bit taller than it should be. 





















Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3

I've finished getting out my freight cars and I have some measurements for you.

Narrow gauge cars (nominally ~30' long)



Delton Box: height car 3 3/4", width 3 15/16", length 14 7/8" (1:24.2)*


USAT Box: height car 4", width 4", length 14 3/8" (1:25)*


LGB Reefer: height 4", width 4", length 14 3/8" (1:25)*


Standard gauge (nominally ~40' long)

LGB Box car: height 4 1/8", width 4 1/4", length 16 1/8" (1:29.8)*



*Scale based upon the nominal length and measured length

I haven't had a chance to look up the width and height of prototype cars for the scale calculation of those dimensions.

As an aside, the battery car I use behind my Mallet is a "modern" steel sided USAT box car (lettered for B&O). It is part of their Steel Box Car series and it is 14 3/8" long. It has the same dimensions as their woodsided Narrow Gauge cars. That length 14 3/8" makes it very close to 1:32 (in length), but the height and width are off when standing next to true 1:32 cars.

I made similar measurements 10 or so years ago when I got my first 1:20.3 engine, an Accucraft K-27. At the time I was struck by the difference in size between my LGB, Delton, and USAT Narrow Gauge cars and the engine. The cars really were dwarfed by the engine. I had assumed that the LGB and USAT cars were ~1.22.5 and the Delton was 1.24. Delton advertized and labeled the box with 1.24 as the scale of their cars. Those cars all looked nice together even if there was about a 10% difference in scale. I thought the 1:20.3 scale was about 10% different from 1:22.5 so it wouldn't be a problem. That is when I made the measurements and discovered the the LGB and USAT cars were closer to 1:24. That makes a 20% difference between them and the 1:20.3 engine, and that explained to me why nothing looked right. 

I occasionally run and mix 1:22.5/24 and 1:29 rolling stock, but I do not add 1:20.3 equipment into the mix. That I always run separately.

Chuck

note added:

I don't have any Bachmann BH cars out here in Arizona. If some one would give me the length, width, and height of one of their 1:22.5/24 box cars, I'll add it to my list.

I measured the car body, not length over couplers, as all of our coupler lengths are somewhat suspect (at least mine are) compared to the prototype. Very little of my 1:22.5/24 rolling stock has body mounted couplers. For the most part I'm using Kadee #831s on this type of rolling stock. I hate to do any surgery on my LGB cars and engines. To actually body mount couplers on them, I would have to remove some material (coupler pocket face) and I don't want to do that.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Nice summary Chuck, Thanks

Jerry


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thank you Garratt for posting that great photo of the Chloe. Is that the real thing? It looks smaller than I imagined it. I'm a bit confused now. If the man is 6 foot tall the locomotive looks to be about 18 to 20 foot long. 
Thanks everyone, it's fun to learn this way.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Realize that the Bachmann K-27 dwarfs 1:20.3 models of 30' box cars as well. They (and their larger stablemates) were enormous locomotives compared to the freight cars they pulled. When you see photos of the stock trains on the D&RGW, the roofs of the stock cars are almost even with the rear deck of the tender. Coupling box cars that scale accurately to those same prototypes in 1:22 and/or 1:24 behind a large 1:20.3 locomotive amplifies the scale discrepancy. 

I find, however, that we--as modelers--tend to be far more concerned with aesthetics than the railroads were. When you look at prototype narrow gauge railroads, there was pretty much one basic requirement for a piece of rolling stock to be used: "can it carry freight and make us money?" Trouble is, when most of us think of narrow gauge railroads, we think (mostly) Colorado narrow gauge, or maybe the EBT, White Pass, etc., usually as they ran in the 30s - 50s. By that era, each railroad had fleets of rolling stock that it had built itself over the past 30 - 40 years, so there _was _a lot of consistency to the rolling stock _on that railroad_ because they had settled on designs that fit their needs, and had long-since replaced all the smaller equipment with stuff of these latter designs. When you look at photos from the 1890s to the 1920s, however, things were far more variable on each railroad as older stuff mixed with newer stuff. That, and railroads which didn't survive past the 30s never developed that "identity" to their rolling stock; they were by and large eclectic mixes of home-built and 2nd-hand equipment from other railroads.

Andrew writes above about folks who buy box cars and might be disappointed that there's a slight variation in size between them. I would suggest those individuals owe it to themselves to open a book or two on railroading and learn about the prototypes. Variety was the spice of life on the narrow gauge. 

Later,

K


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

3T, I guess the guy in Chloe is about 6' probably a bit more. There is perspective to consider and maybe the Olomana length of 25'8" is to coupler face (wikipedia specs). Chloe and Olomana are two different engines in real life so they are probably different lengths.

It is all a matter of perception and picking the right models. If you forget that the loco is actually Chloe, it is feasible in a few scales. I suspect LGB Chloe is shortened 1:22.5 with added height. Consider the image below with both figures an equal distance from the camera. The guy on the left is 75mm top of hat (1:24?) and the guy on the right is 87mm (1:20.3?). The guy on the right would be way too big in the cab but he looks OK otherwise. (rear is EBT No.12 in 1:20.3).
The last two images have an AristoCraft Mikado (1:29) next to Chloe.
A 6' man in 1:29 would be only 62mm high so the cab would appear a little high but it could be cut down or replaced if fussed. If you wanted a small old time steamer in 1:29 there is probably no better option. 
Welcome to the quirks of Large Scale!





























Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

K

I base my comments on my experience. My first contact with D&RGW narrow gauge was in the mid 1960s when I took the train from Durango to Silverton, it was D&RGW then. A couple of years later I built an HOn3 layout. My first book on the subject was NARROW GAUGE IN THE ROCKIES, by Beebe and Clegg. I realize that car sizes were often mismatched, but by the time I got involved most of the rolling stock was relatively consistent for the era I'm interested in modeling. That is why I find mismatched cars and engines jarring. 

It is all about experience and perception. I'm not into pre 1930ish Colorado narrow gauge.

Chuck


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

trainstrainstrains said:


> Is that the real thing? It looks smaller than I imagined it.


Yep, the real thing so how tall was Micky Mouse?

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)




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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Chuck, certainly the mismatch between the larger 1:20 equipment and equipment of the size consistent with the 1:22 and 1:24 models from LGB, Delton, etc. is jarring, even if it _may be_ prototypical. 










I must confess to being one of those modelers who tends to put aesthetics above prototypical accuracy from time to time myself. Fortunately for my eyeballs, the TRR didn't acquire #10 (my K-27) until 1938, by which time all of the pre-1900 stuff had long been turned into firewood. Most of my 1:20.3 locos are c. 1870s to 1900s, so they're considerably smaller than the K, thus don't overpower the smaller rolling stock of that era. Still, my 1910s box car towers over my 1870s box car, and it does make one look twice.


I think the video Andrew posted illustrates my earlier point that it's the physical size that's important, not the "scale" that's stamped on the box. That train is a mix of Bachmann, Delton, and LGB cars and there's nothing at all visually jarring about the proportions of any of those cars. That train could be 1:24, it could be 1:22. With all the equipment being within fractions of inches of each other, there's nothing that gives the eye any clue that they're labeled for different scales, and that train could easily pass for a post-depression-era narrow gauge train. Here's another example:









_Ken Brunt Photo_

Here's a train with a Delton reefer, Delton box car, USA box car, Kalamazoo tank car, and even a 1:32 MDC hopper! The locomotive is of freelance design, built to 1:22, whose tender is a 1:24 model of an EBT mikado tender. My dad's railroad is set in the 40s, and the rolling stock is all of similar proportions as you'd find on a narrow gauge railroad operating in that era. Subtle differences abound, but nothing jumps out. 

That's where I'm coming from when I suggest folks shouldn't be quite so worried about what's written on the box, but concern themselves more with emulating what they see in books. Andrew writes that people may be "disappointed" that a Delton box car is smaller than an LGB box car. That minor level of size difference between cars can be found on any railroad in any era. You'll find those same differences between Accucraft's and Bachmann's 1:20 equipment. They're the same scale, but there are subtle differences because the prototypes are different. 

Later,

K


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

3T, if you want to run Olomana with your 1:29 scale trains you could get one of those New Bright Disney World Railroad open tourist cars from sets. The long red and yellow ones with trucks. They seem to be around 1:24 or smaller and come up by themselves sometimes on eBay. Put on some better trucks so you can mount compatible couplers and small steel wheels to keep it low and stable. The clerestory roof will only be about 6mm higher than Olomana's roof. You can then run it as a short tourist train! The car will help put the loco down in scale so it won't look too out of place (size wise) with the other trains.
Olomana's red wheels and detail will help match them together. 

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Personal recap. 

My original idea was a 1/29 locomotive to contrast in size with the mallet and that could be coupled with the same rolling stock, I now know the couplers are no problem, altho I see that the recommended couplers cost between 20% to 50% of the price of a used car, which is not ideal. But since I have learnt reading the contributions here that there are plenty of cars that can pass for 1/29 scale , I can keep my 4 wheeled caboose and patiently add cars with time. As for the Aristo-Craft C 16 which as many believe can pass for 1/24 or 1/29 I have thought a smaller prototype would make a more fun size contrast with the mallet, so I considered the Aristo-Craft 0 4 0, but having found out it's an oversized 040, I've lost interest. It appears that the strongest size contrast is with the Chloe or Olomana which I already own and which apparently is also of somewhat undetermined scale that could also pass for a 1/29, but it bothers me that the cab is bigger than that on the mallet. 

I'm now considering a second Olomana or a Chloe to build a slightly smaller custom 1/29 cab for it in wood. I'm good with wood. I would appreciate comments pros and cons and advice on this possible solution. Thanks everyone and keep enjoying.

PS I have no internet in the inexpensive little apartment we are renting in this island, the compensation is we hear the waves and seagulls all night for the sea is only yard away. We get the wifi signal from a restaurant on the seafront but it is very weak and intermittent , sometimes we are without signal for hours, as a consequence I often write for the thread without having read the latest comments. Pleasant surprize this time K and Garratt have added to the thread and Garratt has had the same idea with the Chloe as I have, honestly I wrote the above without having red Garratt's or K's last comments, nice surprize. Great help, great photographs again. The time difference is also responsible, its 9.30 am here, 4.30 am in the US west coast.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Are you sure you need another Olomana/Chloe? I think the cab comes off with 4 screws. It can be put away and re installed later for a non-destructive modification. 
You may be better waiting for the new release of Olomana. I read somewhere that the new version will have two drive gears rather than the belt. Not sure if that is true though. It's weakness is wear on the single axle gear if hauling too much. 
There may be options with the LGB Orenstein & Koppel euro field loco. Same drive and wheelbase as the Chloe. Same height roof but quite a lot shorter overall. It does appear smaller but doesn't have that American look. More industrial looking. Available green or black.










Have a look at Marklin Spur1 1:32 which will look smaller with 1:29 stuff. There are some American prototypes. They will offer more scope with wheel configuration but will need detailing though being precision bent tin!

Andrew

P.S.
But, but, but you might hurt Olomana if it hauls what the mallet can haul...


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Not to worry, I did not know of my Olomanas weak point. But now that I know I will not let it pull much. No problem. 
Excellent idea, a different interchangeable cab for each scale. 
Will consider the Orenstein & Koppel and the Marklin Spur 1 1:32 before deciding. 
You are great help.
Thanks again.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Chloe and Olomana should only pull say 2~3 small two axle cars. Not continuously for extended periods either. They are not strong enough to do any hard work and parts are hard to come by. If you do strip a gear you can swap the gear from the other axle for a second life.
I was in there just the other day...










Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

T3, does it have to be a steamer? The Bachmann Davenport side rod diesel weighs like a brick and could pull your socks off! 
I think it could probably pass for several scales but the seat in the cab is very small. Very uninteresting as it comes from the box but you could build what ever you want on top of the deck which is quite low. Only about 7" long beam to beam and 4" wide aprox. Similar height to Chloe.

Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3

No one has suggested the LGB Forney. It is a smallish steamer (0-4-4) that is an excellent puller. In my drawbar tests a few years ago it could pull 36% of its weight. That was the highest percentage of any of my LGB engines that I tested. It is 14.5" long, end beam to end beam, and 5 3/4" tall, track to top of cab roof. The rear light adds another 3/4".

I do not have my Mallet out here in Arizona this year for a photo comparison, but I do have an Aristo Mikado. The roof of the cabs are at a similar height, but the boiler on the Forney is much lower.

The cabs must be tall enough for the engineer and fireman to stand,regardless of the size of the boiler.

Chuck


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## morrjr (Jan 14, 2015)

chuck n,

Will the LGB Forney negotiate R1 curves without problems?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, like all LGB engines it will negotiate R1 curves.

However, I would never recommend using R1 for a permanent layout. It is fine for a temporary, under the Christmas tree, layout. There will be a lot of wear of track and wheels. A friend of mine has to replace his R1 curves every few years because the side of the rail head wears off. He runs short, 0-4-0 LGB engines on this loop, all day every day he is home.

Over the years people complain about black dust falling off the track. This finely ground brass from the rails and plastic from the flanges of plastic wheels.

This tight curve also puts added stress on the motors and gears.

Chuck


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## morrjr (Jan 14, 2015)

Thank you, Chuck. Right now I only have a small temporary indoor layout with R1 curves, and I'm running two 0-4-0 locomotives (Stainz and Porter). Although I'm relatively new to LGB, I was aware of the possible wheel issues, especially with plastic wheels. I told my wife that if we move in the next year or so (we currently rent), the next house has to have an area where so I can set up a garden railroad.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

It is extraordinary how much one can learn by reading this and many other threads in this forum, for my part I have all the information I was after this time and much more. Perhaps the most important thing I have learnt is that the Olomana, my first ever purchase, is not as strong as It appears to be, it is not my intention to make it pull large numbers of cars, I am satisfied with just seeing a very small locomotive next to the mallet. Would exchanging nylon for made to measure brass solve the Olomana's weak point? The pulling power is extraordinary for such a small puller. 

After looking at many small locos on ebay and elsewhere I have decided the best option for me is simply to build a slightly smaller interchangeable cab for the Olomana to use it only when there are other 1/29 locos in use. 

I am also toying with the idea of building the smallest possible 1/29 scale loco from scratch. I wonder which would be the best inexpensive chassis for such a project. The best prototype to use would be the smallest steam loco ever made. If I am not mistaken the two biggest steam locos ever made where the 2 8 8 2 mallet and the Big Boy and they are both modeled in 1/29 scale. I wish a persons life span was at least 200 years. I have so many other more important activities that it might take a long time before I can start on this one.
PS If the Chloe / Olomana is the smallest steam loco ever, then there is no point in this.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

T3;

You may want to peruse Eric Schade's post concerning his whimsical "moose locomotive." Here is the link: http://forums.mylargescale.com/23-whimsical-fun-trains/47218-moose-s-chariot.html

Eric's project is 7/8 inch scale, but it is also doable in 1:29.

Have fun,
David Meashey


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

TrainLi have the Chloe/Olomana axle/gear sets available for $50. I'm not sure if they are LGB stock or if they get them made. It is only a small motorblock design to help make it look right. The prototypes didn't haul much either. They were only light plantation railways running on portable track. 

LGB Chloe/Olomana/OrnsteinKoppel as far as I know ARE the smallest 45mm gauge wheelbase locos. You can get components that drive a single axle. A Bachmann Annie motor/single axle drive is $35. Fitting smaller wheels is the tricky part though. Bachmann have spare parts online.

The AristoCraft Center Cab diesel has motorblocks with a wheelbase of 2.35" but not easy to find now. I have a personal stash for projects!

http://gold.mylargescale.com/scottychaos/MLS-kitbashing-guide.html

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Dave, yes the moose did have a tiny drive.

Andrew


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Call nwsl.com as they make lots of drive units in all scales. The flea is a single axle drive unit.
The on-line catalog did not show the G scale drive units, they may need to be called.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

*Identification of another Loco*

This loco advertised as Lionel 0 6 0 G scale Denver and Rio Grande. Anyone know exactly what scale it is? Or for that matter anything more about it? I did not find anything in the internet and have no experience with Lionel trains.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Lionel G trains are a toyish smaller than usual scale. I don't think they are track powered though.

http://familygardentrains.com/primer/shoe_string/lionel_toy_train/lionel_toy_g_trains.htm 

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thank you so much for this valuable information. I persist with my obstinate quest for company for the mallet. Is the Aristo-Craft mallet the only Aristo-Craft locomotive in 1/29 scale?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The Lionel loco is track powered, but with brass wheels, you'll need to keep them clean like the track.

In terms of Aristo's 1:29 locos, all of their locos are 1:29 with the exception of the C-16, which is from their "Classics" line. In steam, they make an 0-4-0, 2-4-2, 2-8-0, 4-6-2, and 2-8-2 in addition to the mallet. They also make a bunch of those other kinds of locos--the boring ones without siderods. 

Later,

K


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

*Small*

This not yet in stock from LGB G Era III 8 1/4" long , might be the strongest contrast against the mallet ?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

AristoCraft Catalog 2009. They are no longer made but there are some new old stock on eBay.

http://www.gbdb.info/data/expertenanleitung/Aristo-Craft/Kat_2008.pdf

The LGB Orenstein & Koppel industrial engine you pictured has the same motor block as Olomana etc. Similar height but it does look smaller than Olomana because it is quite a bit shorter. Available in black and green. The green one often has an odd looking spark arrested on the stack

http://gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=611&mode=search&l=english

Andrew


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

With the exception of the C16 all AristoCraft locos are nominally 1:29 scale.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The Rogers is a mammoth in 1:29. Looks more at home in 1:20.3.

Andrew


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

While the small LGB engine looks great, it is not a strong pulling engine. No more than 3 small 2 axle cars or the gears will go.
And it is a pain to fix as there is a serpentine belt drive between the axles and must align with the side rods.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thanks, the C 16, Lionel and the Rogers are out of my list now. The LGB Orenstein & Koppel industrial engine is expensive! I have not found one second hand. 
I'm still thinking of the Olomana with a smaller wooden cab. 
The fat little LGB 0-4-0 Tank Steam Locomotive is a candidate since it is less expensive second hand.
The Aristo Craft catalog is a revelation. Great to have.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

3T, The O&K is probably easier to find on Germany eBay, they do come up in the USA though, past models in both black and green. Usually cheaper than Olomana. 

The LGB 0-4-0 blocks are in abundance and not expensive. There is the Austrian Stainz and the other one which is Americanized with cowcatcher. I think it may be based on another Orenstein & Koppel similar to the one that runs at Silver Dollar City Scenic Railroad Frisco. If you narrowed the width, changed the steam domes etc. and built a small cab more to the scale of 1:29 it may not be the tinniest loco but would at least be a practical puller. It would be an inexpensive bash while you get your bearings. 










PS. They both come with disc and spoked wheels. Get one with spokes.  
For even smaller wheels (same wheelbase) use a LGB ToyTrain Porter Saddle, Otto etc. The engine blocks are not as robust as the Stainz but they would make a good base to build what you want on top.

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I apologize for not writing sooner, we are travelling, visiting different islands, much to see and not allways wifi available. I have made my choice, after searching for a motorblock I could not find a decent one for less than $100, so I decided to buy an LGB 0-4-0 Porter Steam tank loco for $100 instead, I was inspired by the many varied and fanciful adaptations that clever talented model builders have performed on this model, definitely seems possible to come up with yet another variation in 1/29 true scale using real wood for the cab and the buffers. Thanks everyone for all the help, information and inspiration.


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