# Layout and turnout advice



## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

Hey all, I'm new(er) to the hobby but have been reading and working on a layout for 6 months now. I've got a great plot of land 120'x60' where I am building. We live in San Diego. I've built a 16'x8' storage shed (that will be a separate post at some point, really turned out great), which will also serve as the train staging area. 

Attached as pdf is my current layout plan. I want long runs with multiple trains and some but not much operations. High level concept is there are two mains (in green and purple) which are big clockwise and counterclockwise loops. The inner (purple) main branches to two inner loops (gray) and a switching yard and wye (blue) and the outer branches to a 'mountain run' loop (red) at significantly higher elevation. With this design I think I can run 5 trains simultaneously (inner and outer main, 2 inner branches and the mountain run) with little or no intervention. Also, no reverse loops (except for access and egress to the shed, so wiring easier.

I plan to use flex track (accucraft) and lgb turnouts. I am going for the widest radius I can get, so 10 feet diameter is the minimum, but most curves are 16 or 20 feet diameter. I am modeling both steam and diesel eras, for Santa Fe, B&O, Erie and Lackawanna (I grew up in Buffalo), and Amtrak. Also a little NYC, I am a sucker for the teal cars which I saw a lot growing up. 

So two questions I'd welcome any and all feedback on:

1) Any comments on the layout in general? I think it accomplished what I am looking for and is a good use of the space, but designs can always be improved.

2) On the switches. This plan is standardized on lgb r3 switches. They diameter of their curves is just under 8 feet, which most folks say is fine for anything you want to run. But it will represent the tightest curves on the layout. So I am wondering if I should move up to LGB R5 or USAT #6 (15' diameter) or go with the Piko R7 (10' diameter). There is a big cost difference, and most guys posts on Piko and USAT turnout quality put them below LGB.

All comments welcome. Thanks. 

Bob


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Don't use the R3, too tight, either find the Aristo WR switches (10' diameter) or better yet go #6. 

You only build a layout once in most cases, and too-tight curves will plague you forever. Remember 99% of derailments are on turnouts.

I like you have switching leads, move the 2 crossovers "down" to align with the bottom of the yard ladder.

There's a lot of track, but you might want to change it up from the multiple loops.

With all the space you have, you should make at least one "circuit" 20' diameter minimum if possible, so you can run a USAT Big Boy easily.

Also, I think you can put in a "twice around" circuit instead of the loops, it will make more sense on long trains.

Did you just buy the LGB Mikado from James? He designs great track plans, maybe the 3 of us can sit down (socially distancing) and throw some ideas around.

You have the room to do a killer layout, and it would be cool to design a layout that could handle a 100 car train.

This is a 45 car train:





And here is a 45 car train showing how it looks on a loop too small: (i.e. a long train needs a BIG loop!)


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

Thanks Greg.

I did buy the Mikado from James. I’d take any help I can get. 

Not seeing the Aristo switches available anywhere and not sure I want used on the layout. So it would seem to be the LGB R5 then. They seem to be the most well liked/highest quality. The USAT #6 doesn’t seem to get good reviews and the Trainli R7 is hard to find anything written about them. AML has a #6 but unclear when/if it will be available. 

I’m going to look again at the main lines and see if I can get to 20’ diameter all the way around. Both should be almost 250 feet long, I don’t know about 100 cars, but it will handle some long ones. 

Also having just googled the twice around is a very interesting idea. I think I’d want an up and over as opposed to switched. Something to play around with. Again, thanks.


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## trainmanfw&sw (Nov 4, 2020)

After looking at your layout design and it looks like a $100,000/$200,000 dollars layout why would you even consider anything less then the largest you can get, so any equipment can run without any concerns. My personal thought is, anything that large needs to be inside as upkeep of a railroad that size outside will require a staff of people just to keep it going. I guess my question is, when does the bulldozer show up to start moving dirt. 

trainman


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

The bulldozer just left. After building my storage shed I finally got around to measuring grade, and I was average 6% from east to west. We just finished regrading to flat. The east end had to come down almost 4 feet. Photos below of shed and guys putting in ties at the east end.


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

Greg, trainman's reply has got me rethinking my track decision. I was going with AML brass track and LGB brass switches. Given the large scale and potential maintenance issues you have highlighted with brass outdoors, maybe I go SS or trainli npb. I know from your site you are a big ss fan, which makes sense to me. I guess I'd lean to trainli because of quality and availability. it just doesn't seem that there is a ton of good ss options being made in g scale anymore. what is your current thinking on npb?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you van go SS, you will NEVER regret it! Such a huge drop in maintenance... I have about 850 feet of track shoehorned into a small space, but "cleaning" the mainline consists of walking a wet Swiffer once around, to take sap, dirt, etc off, and to "walk the main"... I have left the layout for 6 months, and started the system up in 5 minutes.

The Nickel plated brass is a good option, but more expensive than SS.... as much as I sense you want to "get going" I think you can find the Aristo SS you need on ebay.









aristocraft stainless steel track in Model Railroads & Trains for sale | eBay






www.ebay.com





I think we need to sit and talk, you drink Scotch?


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

yes a lot. you could come over and check out the shed and we can kick around ideas. I'm playing around with folded dogbones and folded figure 8s for the mainlines to get that extra track length you suggested. 

Here is what I am seeing in low maintenance track options for new purchase (I'm a little skittish on aristo used):

Trainli npb code 332 - $10.83/foot for straight flex, $160 for R7/#6 switch, huge selection of switches/wyes/crossing/curved switches but exotic stuff very expensive

HR trains ss code 332 - $12.50/foot for straight flex, no switches

Sunset Valley RR SS code 250 - $7.16/foot for straight flex, $118 for R7/#6 switch, limited switch selection

Llegas Creeek NiSi code 250 - $9.75/foot for straight flex, $149 for R7/#6 switch, limited switch selection

I was thinking I wanted code 332 because it's less likely to cause running problems (a big theme of your website which I totally agree with). So in 332 trainli is my only option if I want switches. Its also cheaper than the code 332 stainless from HR. But if I am willing to go with code 250, SSVR looks like a better option at least in terms of cost. 

The increased conductivity of npb also seems attractive given the size of the layout.


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm indoors using SVRR aluminum rail with SS switches using battery/RC. They operate flawlessly and Pete at SVRR is the best to work with. Excellent products and support.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, I agree with your analysis, although, track will last for years, and there is a lot of new old stock of aristo stainless, pretty easy to find. I would likewise agree with sticking with 332, not that you have a bunch of animals that would damage 250, but with the amount of track, probably less damage from humans ha ha!

H&R stainless used to have many radii and switches available, but over the years, the sole US importer has scaled back, and thier ties look more european, so without matching switches, not so great. The quality is fantastic though.

The higher conductivity of nickel is nice, it was not available when I built my layout, the only downside besides cost is you really should not use an abrasive track cleaner, but there should not be any need to in the first place.

Another advantage of nickel plated brass is you can find some very high number switches like number 10 frogs, which again would be great on the "large curve mainline"... 

Greg


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

Yes definitely leaning to NPB. I can’t. Find anyone saying anything bad about the Trainli npb online.

Anyone need some AML brass sectional? Good deal....


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Bob I'm working on layout design too. You have a lot going in a small space IMO... Looking forward to your progress.

The 100-200k USD layout estimate TM mentioned causes me to ponder how did we get there? I see maybe 2000' of track and 40 switches or so. Infrastructure to build layout; what maybe twice the cost of track and switches seems reasonable if not lofty IMO. I'm thinking 32K + 32K = 66K USD. What am I missing?

Michael


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

We shall certainly find out. You obviously can spend whatever you want on locos and rolling stock and buildings and landscaping. My RR track program is saying less than $20K on new track and switches with the current layout. That will go up when I add the length on the mains Greg has advised and switch to Trainli npb track.


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## Batsco (Mar 30, 2011)

My comment is on LGB v Piko turnouts.

I have just recently bought some Piko turnouts and I in my opinion they are on a par with the LGB offerings for construction quality.

All my turnouts are manually operated and the biggest difference between the 2 is the method of moving the blades, LGB have an over centre spring in a box that is screwed to the side of the turnout, while Piko has their over centre spring mounted on the turnout they supply a small clip on "handle" for changing the blades which is a very loose fit (one actually comes of if a little to much pressure is applied when changing).

I have bought both LGB and Piko within the last 12 months and found that the LGB blades do not move unless I give them a light "tap" after I throw the moving lever, I have tried various types of lubricants from light sewing machine oil thru to graphite on the contacts that rub on the blades but the issue still remains whereas the Piko ones just move with no effort but then they they do use a different operating method. 
The main difference I suppose is that in the LGB the spring is applying the motive force while Piko is using human applied motive force.

My environment is a bit harsh, hot weather, heavy rain in summer and high dust levels due to nearby farms.

In my opinion the Piko points perform better in my situation.

One thing to keep in mind, if you plan to use curved turnouts then only Piko make them.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm going to expose the OP to pneumatic control, plenty of power to move any points.

my advice would be to go at least #6 frog on mainline, and I will have to measure the Piko R7, but the Piko R7 is about 10' diameter, much too tight as compared to a true #6 frog.

For what is easily available, the Aristo #6 are hard to beat, I'm looking up for where you get #8 and #10 frogs... A big boy will NOT go through the Piko switch.

Greg


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

I've begun to redo the layout with Trainli R10 switches. Diameter of curve is 118"/9 feet 10".


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ahh, perhaps some confusion, caused by the mixed ways of classifying frogs, turnouts and curvature..

That is NOT a #6 frog, and will be a bit too sharp for mainline curves... lets talk, please email me and we can hook up [email protected]...

R10 is not the same as frog number 10 and not everyone uses the "R" numbers the same... it's a mess.

R10 is the same as the Aristo Wide Radius switches that are very easy to find. The number 6 frog is approximately 14' diameter, but the LGB-type turnouts with a constant curvature are NOT prototypical, and the more gentle switches properly use frog number.

Regards, Greg


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

I cleared it up with Axel and Joane at Trainli. They had a typo on their website. Their R10 switches have a radius of 300cm/118'/9'10". So they should be the right choice if my design is to have 20' be the minimum curve diameter. 

Separately, the Trainli service was pretty incredible. I sent an email and had two separate replies from Axel and Joane within 20 minutes. They cleared up the issue and even fixed the website in real time. Impressive.


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## Tdreabe (May 3, 2020)

Rjstruble said:


> Yes definitely leaning to NPB. I can’t. Find anyone saying anything bad about the Trainli npb online.
> 
> Anyone need some AML brass sectional? Good deal....


What kind of track? I'm in process of doing my first outdoor layout. I'm running live steam so 332 brass AML flex is what I'm using. 
My whole layout will have R-10ft as the tightest curves mainline will mostly be 12 or bigger radius. The Mrs. Gave me permission to a 105' by 55' area behind the garage. So my layout is close to yours.

Tyler.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Trainli imports from Germany usually. 

Bob, great news looks like what I said was wrong, the RADIUS is indeed their R number.... not the diameter.

I noticed they have R13 switches too... great stuff for the mainline... would love to know the real frog number... in the prototype you will see frog numbers from 14 to 21 on mainlines if memory serves correctly.

Greg


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

Greg they show the R13 but it isn't available for purchase as far as I can tell. 

Td, after discussion here and offline I am most likely going with the Trainli nickel plated brass, for the combination of ease of maintenance/corrosion resistance and good conductivity, plus wide selection of switches. With a track size like mine, I don't think I will tolerate cleaning rails.


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

Sorry, missed your question Td. I have three boxes of 12 sections each of six foot AML brass track. Looks really great. One box arrived bent, they let me keep it for free. I paid $299 each plus shipping. I'd let it go for less for sure..


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## MGates (Mar 16, 2016)

I wanted to chime in about the Llagas Creek turnouts that you mentioned were limited in a previous post here in this thread. I build all the turnouts for Llagas by hand and am able to make you any sort of turnout you want. Slip switches, three ways, any sort of radiused curved switches etc. beyond what is listed on the standard turnout pages. I make all the blueprints for custom work digitally and customers are able to print them out at home over a few sheets of paper and tape together to verify fitment before building begins.

Even if you go with another brand of code 332 or code 250 track you would be able to integrate my turnouts if you happen to need something specific. We have a connector piece called a "rail blender" that has a code 332 profile on one end and code 250 on the other so that you can connect our code 250 turnouts to most brands of solid rail code 332 track. We do plan to finally jump into the code 332 game by providing switches in that code (in brass and stainless) in the future, maybe 6-9 months from now. We are working on getting frogs designed and made currently, and that process takes a bit of time getting the molds all made and trial runs done.

I did check out the pricing of Train-Li's Thiel-made turnouts and they are significantly higher in cost than ours, compare a Train-Li/Thiel R4/R6 curved turnout in brass at $415 to our 4ft/6ft curved turnout in code 250 brass or nickel silver with narrow gauge ties at $155 (or with standard gauge ties at $203.50). 

For some it's worth the savings to mix/match our cost friendly turnouts with other brands less expensive flex track, for others it's just easier to keep everything the same brand, I can see the benefits with either decision. I do wish we could offer more competitive flex track pricing, but by keeping all the manufacturing of the tie strips, rail, and castings here in the USA, plus the rising costs of metals we can't lower costs and match brands that outsource a lot of that overseas, without just breaking even or even taking a loss.

I do plan to get more item pages up for slip switches/three ways/etc and a custom work section soon to better inform/advertise how diverse our offerings are. I do not know of any other track brand that will offer bespoke hand made trackwork, send blueprints out for review, or have the builder directly communicate and work with customers as closely as Llagas does. So, thank you for your assessment of our offerings, it helps me realize I need to work on our website a bit more to communicate better all that we can do when it comes to point work/track work.

Feel free to contact me over email at [email protected] if you want to discuss any point work or custom work.

-Mike


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

Thanks Mike. That is really interesting from a price standpoint. I’m thinking I do want to go with 332 outside


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike, there is a big market for non-oxidizing rail and turnouts in 332. I'd be in the market as well as many people I know... Nickel Silver has not been popular outdoors, from all the feedback I have gotten, it still oxidizes and still needs mechanical abrasion to clean it.

Please let everyone know when you hit the 332 market. I like the look of 250, but have too many people stepping on tracks, and outdoors the higher profile results in fewer derailments from rocks and other debris in my opinion.

Greg


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

I’d be all over 332 stainless


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not to belabor the point, but track lasts a long time, replacement ties are still available, but turnouts wear out, and GOOD turnouts that follow prototype practices and are properly gauged, and have correct frogs and flangeways will always be needed.

In reality there are very few #6 and up turnouts out there that are what I call GOOD.

Greg

(sorry for derailing your thread Bob)


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

No took me exactly where I wanted to go


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I had 5 USA trains #6 switches on my layout and never had any problems.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, I think the "bad press" that you hear about the USAT #6 is the electrics, not the design of the switch itself.

The frog looks nice to me:


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## Dunbar (May 5, 2016)

I am glad to hear you are finally getting into the code 332 turnout making. As evidenced from other comments, its greatly needed. If I may make a suggestion about it. I know it takes time to build the turnouts. And Im sure that you will be inundated with requests once you enter the market. My suggestion; offer the turnouts in kit form. I think you will be able to sell many, many turnouts in kit form. Im sure you will still be getting multiple requests for turnout builds, but also me able to sell kits and not get backlogged for turnouts.


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## Tdreabe (May 3, 2020)

Dunbar said:


> I am glad to hear you are finally getting into the code 332 turnout making. As evidenced from other comments, its greatly needed. If I may make a suggestion about it. I know it takes time to build the turnouts. And Im sure that you will be inundated with requests once you enter the market. My suggestion; offer the turnouts in kit form. I think you will be able to sell many, many turnouts in kit form. Im sure you will still be getting multiple requests for turnout builds, but also me able to sell kits and not get backlogged for turnouts.


I'm one that would appreciate the turnouts in kit form with detailed instructions or available youtube videos on the dos and don'ts.

Tyler


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## MGates (Mar 16, 2016)

Thank you all for your feedback. I will be sure to make a new post in this section of the forum when we do offer the code 332 turnouts. As far as turnout kits go, they were discontinued before I joined Llagas Creek, but I am open to bringing them back. I'll have to discuss with the owner about what he'd like to do since he has the final say. 

-Mike


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## Rjstruble (Nov 11, 2020)

He’d see a ton of 332 stainless starting with me.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would swap out my Aristo #6 turnouts too, they are fine, not great, but the frog is cast pot metal, and eventually wears out.

Greg


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