# Battery Questions



## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

So, in my quest to convert my Bachmann Shay and Climax (1st generations) to battery power, I have two more questions for now.

1. How do you determine what voltage and milliamp hour battery pack to use? In the little amount of research I have done today it seems most are using between 14 and 19 volts and between 3000 to 6000 mAh battery packs.

2. Do you guys still use NiMH (Nickel-Metal Hydride) batteries or is everyone upgrading to Lithium batteries? The NiMH seem advantages to my because 1, I already have two chargers that work with them, 2 - I can solder the batteries in any configuration I need to fit confined areas and 3 they are rather cheap these days.

Thanks in advance

Dave S 

P.S. I know the dangers of soldering batteries, I have soldered hundreds of packs in my RC car days.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I still prefer to use NiCD batteries. Even though NiCd is supposed to get the dreaded "memory effect" that only happens with improper charging and can be fixed. 
The problem with NiMh is that they self discharge at a prodigious rate, have only half the life cycles of NiCd and are no cheaper. 
Don't even consider AA cells unless they are LSD type (called hybrid) that are guaranteed to hold 85% charge for 1 x year. Don't draw more than 1 amp from them anyway as that will shorten the life span. 
I can't comment about Li-Ion or Li-Po as I have rarely used them because the OZ battery supplier I use has only recently started fitting low voltage cut out pcb's. 

The Climax will draw a max of 1/2 amp on its own plus whatever the sound system you might have, will also draw. 
There is not much room in the Climax for anything unless you investigate fitting "stuff" in the boiler as well as the fuel bunker. The more mah the bigger the battery package will be.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By dms1 on 01 Mar 2013 12:07 AM 
So, in my quest to convert my Bachmann Shay and Climax (1st generations) to battery power, I have two more questions for now.

1. How do you determine what voltage and milliamp hour battery pack to use? In the little amount of research I have done today it seems most are using between 14 and 19 volts and between 3000 to 6000 mAh battery packs.

2. Do you guys still use NiMH (Nickel-Metal Hydride) batteries or is everyone upgrading to Lithium batteries? The NiMH seem advantages to my because 1, I already have two chargers that work with them, 2 - I can solder the batteries in any configuration I need to fit confined areas and 3 they are rather cheap these days.

Thanks in advance

Dave S 

P.S. I know the dangers of soldering batteries, I have soldered hundreds of packs in my RC car days. 
Dave,

I have been using battery power since 2007. I am NOT an "electronic" person, so I always use the recommendations of my friends who use battery and one installer who does my installs for me. Jonathan Bliese of Electric Model Works.

I own three locomotives, at this time, that are battery.......a Bachmann Connie, an Accucraft C-19 and a Berlyn Workgoose #6. ALL of these were done by Jonathan. The Connie was done in 2007 and uses NiMH, 14.8 volts and I believe it is 2800mah. The Accucraft C-19 is NiMH (early 2008 install), also 14.8 volts and 2800mah. The third engine, #6 Goose I purchased from Jonathan's collection. Because it is very small, the install is truly unique.The Goose has Airwire, Phoenix sound and a battery. Your Climax is HUGE in comparison, so you should have NO problems getting this loco equipped. As far as the battery, it is a special li-ion pack at 14.8 volts and 1500mah, made special for very small and compact installs such as this. The other two locos have Airwire and Phoenix sound also.

My experience with NiMH batteries has been great. The batteries in the Connie and C-19 are 6 and 5 years hold respectfully. I've never run them down when running. I charge them roughly every 60 days to maintain them. I use a $75.00 Tenergy Smart Charger which gives me the options to charge ANY battery type. Just program it. Very nice and compact.

I have a friend who owns the Bachmann three-truck Shay. Jonathan did the install and has Airwire, Phoenix sound and battery. 14.8 volts, I believe it is 4200mah and Lithium-ion. He has his own home layout and has run at the Fairplex in Pomona and never run down the battery.

Welcome to MLS and to Battery Power.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Dave - I provide generic instructions for converting to battery power in all of my product manuals available on-line.

To determine the required voltage, I recommend you run your loco on track power at the fastest speed you would like to run it at. Measure the track voltage at that speed, then add 1 volt. Then round that value up to the next incremental battery size available in the technology you choose to use. In summary, the voltage determines the speed.

As to mah (milliamp hours) rating of the battery pack, that will determine your run times between charging. If you loco draws 1 amp, then each 1000mah will provide 1 hour of run time. Most locos run at much less than 1 amp. In general, I always use around 4000mah. That's enough to run a loco for half a day at an open house. Then I just switch over to another one.

I prefer Lithium- Ion batteries, as they provide the most power in the smallest package. But nothing wrong with Ni-Cad or Ni-Mh. I have Ni-Mh batteries that must be at least 6 years old now, and still work fine. They do self discharge though. Lithium's do not.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

First welcome. 

Second, think of the numbers your asking in other terms. First the voltage you threw out there. Most steam engine users will have 14.8V packs. The voltage can be thought of as the top speed of your locomotive. The locomotives you listed were slow movers. When your thinking about voltage also consider if you are going to be using sound and smoke units and lights and other stuff that also take part of the voltage pie that your battery is supplying. That said, if you run all of that stuff (sound, smoke unit, lights) 14.8V packs will still give you a speed much faster than the real locomotives would run at. If you go to 19V packs then your speed "could" be higher. 

My suggestion to you is pick a voltage and stay with it. Keep it consistant with all of your locomotives. It makes charging a lot simpler. 

Next, the question about mAh - this translates to milli Amps per hour. Think of this as the amount of time you will have before you need to recharge the battery. The Alkaline (I use that as a loose term, dont flame me!) batteries your thinking of using have some issues in that they do have the "memory effect" that Tony talks about. Memory effect means that the battery might get a full charge the first few times but then the memory effect kicks in and you will get a lesser charge. Thus means the mAh goes down so you will have less time between charges until the battery wont hold a charge at all. Alkaline batteries are heavier, this can equate to tractive effort of the locomotive, but can also mean the locomotive works harder and thus uses up the batter quicker (more on this in a sec). 

Another problem is when alkaline batteries get close to the end of their charge, the voltage starts to drop. Based on the description I had above, that means slower speed. Lith based batteries do not have the memory effect and keep thier full voltage output until they are completely drained. ---Back to the description of mAh, like I said, think of this as the amount of time you have before you have to charge the battery again. 

As an example, I had used a 2600 mAh pack in my K-27. I was getting about 2 hrs of run time. I added another 2600 mAh pack and now I get just under 4 hrs. Yes the mAh is accumlative, which means you can use multiple packs. BUT MAKE SURE THE PACKS ARE THE SAME CHEMISTRY AND VOLTAGE! The run time is depended on a few things, grade the engine is pulling and the weights its pulling. More weight and higher grades will use up the battery quicker because the engine is working harder. 

Hope this explains everything, It took me some time to figure it out, and once I did its pretty easy.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The Climax is a speed demon even at 14.8 volts. (Well, speed demon for a Climax--the things rarely exceeded 15 - 20 mph) I've got 14.8 volts worth of Li-Ion batteries placed in the boiler of mine, and even with that, I've got the "top speed" CV on my QSI control board set to 165 (out of 255), so about 65%. I'm using 2600mAh batteries, which--if other locos can be used as a gauge--will give me between 3 - 4 hours run time, even with two motors. I'm just finishing its conversion, so I've just run it back and forth on my workshop switching layout so far. 

The NiMH batteries will work okay for running. I was using 2500mAh AA cells before I switched to Li-Ion, and would get between 2 - 3 hours out of them. Their biggest drawback is that they don't hold a charge long term. I always had to charge the batteries immediately prior to running trains so I could get any kind of life out of them (more than 15 minutes or so). That meant I had to pretty much decide in the morning whether I was going to run trains that day and get things charging. As a result, I couldn't just spur-of-the-moment toss a train on the tracks and enjoy it. Since switching to Li-Ion, I've probably run trains three or four times more often--even if it's just for 20 - 30 minutes while I'm outside working in the yard or something. 

Later, 

K


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Everytime this subject comes up, the narrow gage guys say you only need 14.8 volts because the Climax or Shay only has a top speed of such and such. BUT, your transmitter has a throttle control. Just like you don't have to full throttle your automobile to 120mph, you don't have to full throttle your Climax or other steam locomotive to full throttle just because you can. 

There are other points that must be addessed. What accessories do you plan to add to the locomotive? Sound cards requires a certain voltage to operate. Smoke takes a certain voltage to operate and some take a lot more voltage than others. The number of electric motors powering the locomotive also has to be considered. Then you have loading of the locomotive. How many cars are you planning to pull? How much do those cars weigh? If you have 4-6 brass passenger coaches, that narrow gage locomotive will most likely need more than 14.8 volts to perform adequately. 

Now I'll admit that most members of this forum believe 14.8 volts is all you need and they have obviously had success running their trains on 14.8 volts. BUT, for me, I believe the more the better. 

I've made a mistake twice now in buying a battery pack for my Dash 9. Yes I know it's not a narrow gage loco, but it still shows just how low voltage hurts the performance. I went to Marty's in 2011 with my Dash 9 powered by a 14.8 volt battery that I was told would be sufficient. While pulling a string of Grain Hoppers, I tried to climb the highline. It didn't have the power to pull the train up the grade. It didn't even have the power to break the wheels loose and spin. Also, keep in mind this Dash 9 has one small weight as provided from Aristo Craft. So in 2012 I put a 18.5 volt battery in the Dash 9 and this time I was pulling my 4 USAT Aluminum passenger cars. It would pull the 4 cars up the high line, but the train was far slower than other diesels running on Marty's layout. Why? Well the Aluminum passenger cars are heavy. They also have brushes draging against the wheels to pick up power on DC power track for interior lights. I use a MRC 10 amp Power G transformer and before I switched the Dash 9 over to battery, the Dash 9 ran like a scalded dog. It pulled the same 4 USAT passenger cars with the lights on at speed. The MRC Power G puts out 22 volts DC. So, in my case, I should have bought a 22 volt battery to begin with. 

As for the type, I'm using the Lithium batteries with a battery charger made to charge Lithium batteries. Also, I never leave the batteries charging on their own. I remove them from the Dash 9 also.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

True enough, Randy. You've got to take your operating environment into consideration. You're absolutely correct--the standard gauge diesel guys (and standard gauge steam to a large extent) gravitate towards 18 to 21 volts for very good reason. They generally run a lot faster than the narrow gauge guys, and pull much longer trains. They can benefit from the added headroom on the voltage. But for narrow gauge? With very few exceptions, you just don't need it. Our trains aren't that long and our speeds aren't that high. 

In terms of the electronics, I have yet to use any on-board sound or control system that requires more than 12 volts to operate, so 14.8 volts (14.4 in the NiMH/NiCd world) has long proven sufficient for those needs. Any voltage above that is purely for added speed/power to the motors. The only exception to that might be smoke units, but battery folks tend not to worry about that since it's a drain on batteries, and unless you've got a fan-driven smoke unit, it's a pathetic representation anyway. (And even then, better if it's timed to the chuff rate or load of a diesel motor) 

Yes, there's no need to run your throttle all the way to "full," and with DCC (as Dave is using) you can set your top speed anywhere you want and still have the full spectrum of control between stop and what you program as "full." But on other systems, you don't have that luxury. If you're using an unnecessarily high top voltage, you're likely going from "Stop" to what you want as "full" throttle in just a few steps. If--for example--each press of the throttle button bumps your speed 5%, and you're only using 1/4 of your available speed, that gives you essentially 5 button presses from stop to "full." If you're using a proportional system like a knob or a stick, then your entire throttle range is in the bottom 1/4 of the motion. That's a very touchy throttle, and speed control is rarely smooth in that situation. That gets compounded in situations where there are changes in grade and you've got to adjust your throttle to compensate. 

So I definitely agree with you--you need to take your operating environment into consideration when determining how much voltage you're going to need for your trains. But that's as much as you need. There's no practical advantages to going even higher than that "just because." If you're doing an installation where you're lucky enough to have extra space for more cells, you'll get much more "bang for your buck" in increasing the battery capacity than the voltage. 

Later, 

K


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