# Rail Expansion



## bdoane3941 (Mar 25, 2008)

I am building a layout in Arizona with code 250 brass track. Average summer temps, 100+ 

I am using about 500' of track and battery power. The track will be floated in ballast and not directly secured to roadbed to allow movement.


Would it be better to use broad curves or straight sections to minimize movement of rail from expansion.


My thought is that if I use broad curves the rail will expand and push the curve horizontally rather than buckle the track if I have long straight sections.
Or does it matter?



Ben


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I would agree with that thinking (curves better than straights).


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

In that heat, I would avoid real long straights. Although it hits 100 here and I have one that is about 50' long. Is in the shade some during the day though.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Where in Arizona are you?


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## bdoane3941 (Mar 25, 2008)

Thanks for the responses.
I wanted to get opinions before I put track down.

I am in Mesa.


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## Joe McGarry (Jan 4, 2008)

By all means put some gentle curves in your long straights. I'm in No. Calif. and we get some 100+ days here. I've got a 80' straight section with some large radius curves in it, all just "floating" in ballast. On a hot day the track will move as much as 1/2" from side to side. I'm using Aristo 332 brass track, and have removed the screws attaching the tie strips to the rails, so the rails can move freely in the tie strips. Track has been down for a year and all seems o.k. Best wishes on your layout construction.

Joe McGarry


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

If expantion and contraction are a concern The rail clamp people make "EXPANTION JOINTS" for Rail

They work quite well.

If you want some Ideas Contact Duncan of the Sundancer Rail Road . He lives in Jillbert. ( Gilbert) That is on your side of the desert. He has a great RR.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a friend in Scottsdale, he uses the "expansion tracks" (not the expansion joiners) from SplitJaw... they do the trick on long straights, they come in several versions, get at least the ones that move 1/2"... that will solve the problem on straights. 

Regards, Greg 

(Jillbert?)


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 10/27/2008 11:05 AM
I have a friend in Scottsdale, he uses the "expansion tracks" (not the expansion joiners) from SplitJaw... they do the trick on long straights, they come in several versions, get at least the ones that move 1/2"... that will solve the problem on straights. 

Regards, Greg 

(Jillbert?)

One of my customers was printing a Real Estate add. They had run off 2500 sheets of this 4 color job with coating. Cut it and folded it when someone noticed the some one had spelled Gilbert as Jillbert.


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## bdoane3941 (Mar 25, 2008)

I talked to Duncan about 2 years ago. I will have to go see his layout. 
I am looking into the expansion joints. This weekend I got the roadbed down, it needs to be leveled but, I am getting close to putting track down.


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## bottino (Feb 7, 2008)

You need to talk to Dennis Serrine, the Palo Verde and Southwestern RR. He is in Mesa, off McKillips. He has some of the biggest turns you will ever see anywhere. I do believe that he has expansion joints, as well as Hillman clamps at every joint, and has no movement. Check him out, you will not be sorry.
Paul


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## Terl (Jan 2, 2008)

Big gentle curves everywhere and just letting the track float is the simplest way to allow for track expansion. You will want expansion track if you want straight track. 

Terl


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## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

My layout is indoors, and therefore I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to outdoor layouts. Howeve, I'm not convinced that thermal expansion is as much of a problem as it's claimed to be. A couple of years ago I was thinking about adding a thermal expansion calculator to my _Handy Converter_ program, but after some research I decided not to do it because of my conclusion.

Here's some info: the coefficient of thermal expansion for brass is 19 parts/million per degree Celsius. For an example, let's calculate the effect of a 100 degree Fahrenheit temperature change on brass track. 100 degrees F is equivalent to 55.6 degrees C, so our formula would be 19 X 55.6 / 1000000 which equals .0010564 feet per foot of track. For 100 feet of track, the expansion would be 0.10564 feet, or about 1 1/4 inch.

Stainless steel is less of a problem as its coefficient of thermal expansion is just 17.3. A 100 degree F change on 100 feet of stainless steel track would be about 1 5/32 inch.

Aluminum is a little worse; it's coefficient is 23. A 100 degree F change on 100 feet of aluminum track would be a shade over 1 1/2 inch.

Again admitting I have no real outdoor experience, these numbers seem small to me. An inch of movement in 100 feet of track from deep frost to scorching sun? I would think that keeping a few rail joiners unclamped would allow for this kind of movement. I ask someone who has had an actual problem with thermal expansion tell me how flawed my conclusion is!


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

I remember Jack T. posting this pic. Its aluminum rail which is, I think, the worst at expansion but illustrates the point - 










-Brian


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

I live in Mesa, Az and don't have any problems with expansion of the rail/track at all. Of coarse all of by track is glued down to the concrete roadbed though.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I would use the expansion rails as they work best to relieve rail expansion. Dennis Serrie track is screw down to the road bed. He has very long straight aways and Lazar line the track prior to screwing sown. Brass track will expand more than SS rail. These two methods work best in your part of the country. Here where I'm at we often reach 100 degree days also but I use all SS track with no expansion joint. Track is all free floating. The track is well surfaced , tamped and lined and a full crib of ballast is a must as shoulder ballast is. You also want the ballast to fill the void on the under side of the tie. This is a must to keep rail movement to a minimum. The screws that hold the rails to the ties is a type of rail anchor that also help prevent rail movement. Romoving these make your rail move more than it should. Later RJD


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## bdoane3941 (Mar 25, 2008)

Would you also recommend that I use the rail clamps?
I have read in a few posts that layouts which use battery power only do not use rail clamps but, I don't know if they are only in ballast or secured in other ways (spike through ties, screwed down, etc..)


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

This topic was also covered in June: 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/9/tpage/1/view/topic/postid/28460/Default.aspx#32811 

And in 2002:

http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=8276

http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=7646

This photo is from the latter thread:


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## bdoane3941 (Mar 25, 2008)

I didn't see that one. Thanks for the link.


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## chaingun (Jan 4, 2008)

I live in the Western part of the state (AZ) near the AZ. / CA. border. It routinely reaches 120 plus here. I have a couple thousand feet of mostly ss with some brass. I run battery power. I have dealt with the expansion problem for 4 summers now. It is definitely a problem on straight sections of any length. I use Split Jaw & Hillman clamps and I make my own expansion tracks as the store bought are a little two pricey for the amount of them I use. My track is free floating on my ballast. I got the idea of making my own from a GR article on Gen Bangs RR. I use a foot of track cut in half. I then grind the ends to half there width. I grind back about 1 & 3/4 inches to get around ¾ inch of travel in both directions. I allow the rail to move freely in the ties and mount the ties to ¼ inch backer board or red wood to stiffen the joint. Brass is far easier to work than the ss but I have good results with booth.
Best, Ted


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## Robert (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted 
Your homemade expansion pieces look like they work great, but I'm curious if backing up through them is a problem. The reason I ask is I have a section of track that feeds a storage area that for some reason is problematic for expansion. Not nearly AZ expansion rats, but it buckles a bit. Anyway I have to back down this line often so before I attempt to duplicate your efforts I thought I'd ask. I have other options but I like the idea of just installing your expansion section. 
Robert


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## chaingun (Jan 4, 2008)

Robert, 
No problems but it's a little smoother moving in the direction the inside points are facing. So I would put the ends (points) of the inside rails in the direction you will be backing. 
Best, Ted


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## PLONIEN (Jul 31, 2008)

This is an interesting topic to someone who has just completed the track lay down on a first garden railroad. I am in the Dallas/Ft. Worth, Texas geographic area and completed a track powered layout with some long runs of track. I used Astro SS track screwed to a synthetic wood ladder-style base which was anchored to PVC set as the upright supports. I used about one screw every two feet for securing the track. The ballast is limestone fines used for esthetics instead of functionality.

I did not see any of the illustrated expansion problems so far, but the installation was done in the summer. I suspect an opposite problem may occur now that winter is starting, which is contraction of the rails. The track is joined by Split jaw SS clamps and very small gaps were allowed in the assembly. 

My worry is that because the track is secured by screws to the plastic ties, that extreme heat (100+ degrees) will not only try to buckle the track, but also damage the ties? I think that maybe using the Split Jaw expansion clamps might be less expensive than the repairs should the expansion problem occur, but how many clamps are needed per length of track? Another question would be: Do the slip joint clamps have any circuit problems since I hate to manufacture jumper wire cables to be attached to each clamp bolt. 




























Please forgive me if the images are not viewable, since this is my first time to post.


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

It really looks great. The experts will be along any minute to tell you what you could have done better. If anything keep the pictures coming. Your helper also looks agreat and I am sure is a real pride to you.


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## PLONIEN (Jul 31, 2008)

Thanks Barry. 
My helpers are my grandchildren for whom I built the railroad for. We saw a great garden railroad at Clark Gardens in Mineral Wells, TX a year ago, and decided to use the area behind the pool for somthing other than growing grass. Too bad we finsihed so late in the season, since I thought the gardening would be what I enjoyed most. I'm looking forward to next Spring. I have been reading posts on the two major large scale railroad websites, and hopefilly utilized many of the suggested best practices. However, it seems this track expansion problem post was a little late for me since all the track is now down. If I need to install expansion joints, better this Winter than when it gets hot next summer!

As you requested, here are a few more photos of the "Tantarra Western Rail Road". I'll post more after we get plants in place next spring.
Regards,
Jack


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

I was just through Gainesville, TX last week on my way home from California. Your foundation looks solid and if you have drainage for the occasional rain you will be just fine. You will definitely know within the next year if you will have to tweak it. The pictures are great and it looks like you are enjoying the journey so to speak and that is what it all is about.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The slip jaw "expansion clamps" (not to be confused with "expansion track") are not worth buying, they do not work. 

Basically in order to work, the rail needs to be clamped so loosely on the "expansion" part that conductivity is compromised, but moreover, the track will come out of it. 

Even the manufacturer of split jaw admits they do not do the job. 

Watch your ties where the screws are, and if you see deformation, pull them out. On long straights if you get buckling there is no substitute for the expansion tracks. 

Regards, Greg


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## bdoane3941 (Mar 25, 2008)

Well, after a lot of thinking I could not justify spending $600+ on rail clamps and expansion track at this time. I decided to put track down with the stock jointers and gentle curves. The track is ballasted with 1/4 minus granite. The first section that I put down, after being watered, took quite a bit of work to move. The granite is like cement after being watered. I left a space of the thickness of 2 pennies between each joint to accept the expansion. So, if it becomes a problem I can always buy the clamps and track later.


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## Big65Dude (Jan 2, 2008)

The point I was trying to make with this shot taken on Ken Molchanow"s_ RGS South Jersey Division_ during an operating session when the temperature was in the triple digits is this: 

Notice how the passing sidings on either side of the main line are not kinked (from heat expansion) but the main line is. That's because it's "pinned" at both ends by the switches and has nowhere to go as it expands. On the other hand, the sidings have curves that change in radius as the floating track heats up allowing the tangent (straight) track to move side-to-side.


Jack Thompson
Reston, Virginia


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## bdoane3941 (Mar 25, 2008)

Jack, 


The question that I had after looking at that picture was.. Would the "pinned" track have bowed if slip jointers were used?

If the ties are held in place and there are gaps between the rail; won't the rail expand length wise to fill the gap rather than bow?
That's sort of how the expansion track works, right?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, assumming the expansion track can absorb the amount of expansion that occurs when the track heats up in the sun and not pull apart with too much contraction when the rail cools when the sun goes down.

Another problem is that if more than one expansion section is employed, the rail must be rigidly fixed in place in the center of the length of rail. Otherwise, the rail may work its way to one end in repeated expansion and contraction cycles. i.e.: it expands into the expansion section on both ends, but when it contracts again whichever expansion section has the least friction will pull to the widest point, effectively moving the track to the other end.

I put a dime's thickness in all my track joints for expansion. Worked great on the first expansion, but since my track is fully floating when it again contracted all the joints held except one and it then became about 10 dime's thickness wide and thus came apart since the joiners are only about 5 dime thicknesses long!


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## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm now wondering how - or if - 1:1 railroads handle this problem.

The German ICE trains (and probably other high-speed trains as well) use continuously welded rails attached to solid concrete ties and roadbed. Here's a description of roadbed construction:

"The entire roadbed is made from reinforced concrete. The ground is leveled and prepared, and a concrete bed at least a foot thick is laid on it. This is the sub-bed for the track proper. Next, a mesh of steel rebars is placed on the sub-bed, and 'ties' - pairs of concrete rail anchor blocks (ready to use) connected in gauge by separate rebar clusters - are placed over the mesh. The whole mass is then set in concrete, about 16" thick. Except for gravel berms along the sides of the roadbed, the entire arrangement is monolithic."

Any ideas on how this contrained system overcomes expansion?


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## PLONIEN (Jul 31, 2008)

Greg, 

Thanks for the tip on Split Jaw expansion clamps. 

I elected to go with the Split Jaw expansion rails instead. I noted someting else on thier website which explained that in order for the rails to expand freely, the small screws which hold the tie sections to the bottom of the rails must be removed on all non-flex track. Wow, if I had only known about the expansion problems before I screwed down all the track to the ladder system track bed. This looks like several weekends of removing ballast, unscrewing track, removing the tie/rail screws, reclamping the track, rescrewing the ties back to the roadbed ladder material, installing the six sections of Split Jaw SS expansion track into all the longer streight sections, and re-ballasting. I also need to work on the curves by removing as many screws as possible, while still keeping the track on top of the roadbed. I now realize why some of the ties have center slotted holes... so that curved tracks can move back and forth as they expand and contract without the rail tearing out the screw secured ties. To do it right, I'll have to take up all track except within the tunnels, which hopefully have some resistance to large movement since they are not in the sun and are only suseptable to actual temperature changes. 

Now when is it that the fun starts...???


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## pk (Jul 6, 2008)

Posted By stanman on 11/17/2008 6:26 PM
I'm now wondering how - or if - 1:1 railroads handle this problem.



It's actually very simple. The continuous welded rail (CWR) is de-stressed (heated to the neutral temp. in the area) when it is laid and anchored immediately after. By doing so, the expansion of the rail is controlled forcing it to expand vertically instead of horizontally. This is not a new technology.

However, this is not practical for a garden RR.

Regards,
pk


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Plonien: 

Try using the expansion tracks and free floating the track (don't screw the ties down). I think you will be fine without unscrewing the rails. Try that first, you can always pull the track and screws later. 

It's straightaways you will have problems with. 

Regards, Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

PK: 

The rail is indeed laid at "neutral temperature", which minimizes the effects of expansion, and gets the track down right. The track anchors control the movement of track, basically locking the rails to the ties. The ties are locked into the gravel. That's what keeps real track stable. 

No one, not even GOD can make the rails expand in a different dimension because we want it to! The rail DOES expand as metal has done for centuries, in both directions, height and length. The system of anchoring the rails to the ties and locking the ties into the coarse gravel is what is doing the job. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

One think to keep in mind that anchors are only part of the process of controlling rail movement. The screw that hold your rail to the ties in reality are rail anchors Also you have a void under the ties to collect the ballast and also helps restrain the track. Ballast isa key factor. RR make sure they have a full crib of ballast and at least 12 inches on either side of the ties then the shoulder based on a 2 to 1 slope. You need the 12 inches of ballast on either side of the ties to keep the track from moving laterally. 

I have almost a 100 % temp change in our areaduring the year. My track is free floating and has been down for over 5 years. No sunkinks as yet. My rail is laid as the 1 to 1 rails lay theirs so the theory works even in scale RR-ing. Later RJD


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2008)

Long straight sections will become long wavy sections in the heat, as seen in the photos above, the waves can seriously degrade parallel track clearance. WIth sweeping curves in a "straight" section, the track at least has somewhere to move in a systematic fashion. However, there is a dark side to allowing the track to wander sideways. 

It will "sweep" the ballast to the outside as it moves outward in the heat and crawl over said ballast as it moves inward as it cools. You will notice a gradual tendency for the ballast to fall down the outside of any slope. This will tend to cause the track to slowly go out of level with the outside rail invariably being lower as it's ballast is slowly moved aside. I have solved that problem at the curves at the ends of straight sections by gluing the ballast on the slope. At least there is nowhere for it to slide down and my track stays level for much longer. I do not glue the ballast between the ties, only off the ends of the ties.


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## pk (Jul 6, 2008)

Greg,

You seem pretty knowledgeable, can you give us a more in depth explanation on how this is supposed to work?

Regards,
pk


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

As I mentioned the idea is to have a area of ballast spread out ward from the track on either side before the slope. This helps restrain the track laterally. Most folks make the mistake of not lining and tamping the track. Also the use of proper ballast makes a big difference. Using pea gravel or river rock is not a good Idea as it does not lock together. Later RJD


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2008)

CWR tends to be laid while hot and expanded. When it cools and starts to contract, it cannot. It goes into tension and actually stretches and reduces in cross section for as long as it is stretched.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

PK, I learned from R.J. (aceinspp), who was a track inspector for the 1:1... ask R.J., I am still in training... I have though, spent a lot of time looking into people's expansion problems, especially in Arizona, and it's interesting how people get started, and the eventual evolution...many people start with the logic that screwing the track down to something will stop it from moving. But, the power of expanding metal is pretty strong, it takes a lot to resist it. (I have a background in applied physics). 

When R.J. started instructing me in how the 1:1 railroads worked, it made sense with the physics of the problem, but he had to hit me over the head a few times in the course of my training! 

Regards, Greg


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## pk (Jul 6, 2008)

Well, some people have gotten close to being right on the money.

So what it boils down to is that the dynamics of the track structure in 1:1 and your favorite flavor of GRR scale are completely different.

Expantion rails seem to do the trick on your GRR and those other guys need to be sure things are anchored up and the ballast section is in good order.

Regards,
pk


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

Here's some info: the coefficient of thermal expansion for brass is 19 parts/million per degree Celsius. For an example, let's calculate the effect of a 100 degree Fahrenheit temperature change on brass track. 100 degrees F is equivalent to 55.6 degrees C, so our formula would be 19 X 55.6 / 1000000 which equals .0010564 feet per foot of track. For 100 feet of track, the expansion would be 0.10564 feet, or about 1 1/4 inch.

Stainless steel is less of a problem as its coefficient of thermal expansion is just 17.3. A 100 degree F change on 100 feet of stainless steel track would be about 1 5/32 inch.

Aluminum is a little worse; it's coefficient is 23. A 100 degree F change on 100 feet of aluminum track would be a shade over 1 1/2 inch.

Again admitting I have no real outdoor experience, these numbers seem small to me. An inch of movement in 100 feet of track from deep frost to scorching sun? I would think that keeping a few rail joiners unclamped would allow for this kind of movement. I ask someone who has had an actual problem with thermal expansion tell me how flawed my conclusion is!


This got me thinking a bit..

So I put some numbers into a calculating program for circles posted a while ago in the forums (‘cause I’m too lazy to work it out manually) 

http://www.1728.com/circsect.htm

If you have 100’ of brass straight track, ie 1200” and it expands to 1201.25” while fixed at both ends then the center will need to move 23.7” sideways to accommodate the extra length. ( Enter Chord 1200, Arc length 1201.25, result is calculated segment height )

If we assume that loose joints take up 95% of the extra length leaving an expansion of .0625” to deal with then the sideways movement needed is still 5.3”. I’m guessing this could take the form of 6 ish 1” wiggles..?

So we now have photos, experience and calculations to show the scale of the problem.

Shoot away if I have the numbers wrong..










Cheers
Neil


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

PK you would be surprised how GR are as close to 1 to 1 RR as far as track the world. They also use expansion joints in CWR. As RRs learned about how CWR reacted they came up with new solutions to laying and adjusting. However RR still have sun kinks or better known now as thermal expansion due to various conditions same our GRs. Later RJD


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## pk (Jul 6, 2008)

RJD,

I'll need you to show me evidence of a 1:1 scale expantion joint used in CWR. I have never seen or heard of such a thing before. Same for the track anchors mentioned earlier. I have never seen a track anchor, lots of rail anchors, but never a track anchor.

Regards,
pk


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

PK: Rail anchor is the correct term. Don't recall seeing mention of track anchor. Yes Expansion joints did exist. In my many high rails trips on the RRs across the country I did see expansion joints most notable at approaches to bridges. Unfortunately I'm unable to locate my photos as they where taken back in the 70s. One such location that comes to mind where they were in place was on the C&NW just west of Council Bluffs, Ia heading to Fremont, Ne. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)




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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg 
this is the first I have seen photos of 1:1 , where is this?? 
thanks


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ahh, did not look... google "railroad expansion joint".... 

Greg


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

The pic originated from here: http://www.railway-technical.com/index.shtml

It looks to be Euro track. Maybe England.

jb


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Being that I am going to start my layout soon, rail expansion has been a concern I have been trying to come up with a solution for and I think I may have it but I need everyone's thoughts on whether or not it will work. First of all, floating track seems to be what most people do to keep rail expansion from getting a foothold on their layouts. Personally, I really do want to fix the track in place just because I don't like the idea of the track just sitting on top of the bed. It seems like it wouldn't take much to shift the track and having double main I don't think that is a good idea. Thanks to the reply about breaking down the expansion per 100 feet of Stainless Steel in 100 degree weather it gave me an idea. I am going to have Split Jaw rail clamps on the layout and thought... What if I tighten one rail snugly on one side of the clamp and then leave the other rail slightly loose along with a small gap between the rails? I realize that leaving a tiny gap on one clamp wouldn't amount to much, but if I did this on every clamp I would think it would compensate for that 1+ inch for every 100 feet of track. This way I could secure the ties and let the rail expand and retract as it wants to. The only con I could see is having a fairly significant clickety-clack on the joints, but with them being every 8 feet I'm pretty sure I could deal with it. So what do you guys think? Would it work or is there something I am not considering? Thanks guys.


-Will


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