# Any chance of a MTH SD70Ace?



## leikec (Jul 19, 2008)

MTH makes this model in O scale - in fact, O scalers (both 2 and 3R)have two different SD70Ace models to choose from - Lionel and MTH. 

If they made this engine in 1/32, then MTH could sell heritage units to large scale modelers, and I'm guessing they would be very popular, when compared to the "Foobie" USA SD70Mac engines. 

Jeff C


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## leikec (Jul 19, 2008)

Okey-dokey... 

Nobody cares. 

Jeff C


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

1. Perhaps you're right. 

2. Many of use don't read the forum in the evenings, so you may still get replies. 

3. I'm a steam nut myself, so my opinion wouldn't qualify.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff, 

I think that in this market, there's only so much that will sell. Plus, in this size, MTH went on their own in to the 1/32 market. You may have noticed that the vast majority of standard gauge trains are modeled in 1/29. That limits who will actually buy the MTH unit. If you want the heritage scheme, USA put it on their SD-70 units, so the potential market for a MTH SD-70ACe is really limited. 

Mark


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## leikec (Jul 19, 2008)

Quote - "I think that in this market, there's only so much that will sell. Plus, in this size, MTH went on their own in to the 1/32 market. You may have noticed that the vast majority of standard gauge trains are modeled in 1/29. That limits who will actually buy the MTH unit. If you want the heritage scheme, USA put it on their SD-70 units, so the potential market for a MTH SD-70ACe is really limited." 



Mark, 

I understand what you are saying. But your reasoning works both ways: 

MTH would produce the units in 1/32 scale. This would be a popular draw for 1/32 scale modelers; it might swing some standard guage modelers back toward the scale, and an existing 1/29 USA train offering didn't stop them from producing F-3's or PA-1's. 

And MTH tends to go their own way - in any scale. They produced a K-4 pacific in HO (admittedly a much larger market), even though the model has been produced in quantity. 

Coming from the smaller scales, I'm still interested in a reasonable amount of prototype accuracy - and sometimes this is a curse instead of a blessing. There are things I can overlook, but the SD70MAC is quite a bit different than the SD70Ace; for me the difference is a deal-breaker. I know many modelers won't care as long as the USA engines are good-looking locos. 

Jeff C


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff, 

To me, it seems like they did very little market research to see what actual large scale railroaders were doing and what was wanted. Instead of going with the mainstream (1/29), and offering equipment that would compliment the broad range offered by the other two, they further splintered the market with 1/32 trains. From 10' I can still tell the difference between the MTH trains and the 1/29 trains. 

It really wouldn't surprise me if MTH did do a SD-70Ace. But that is one ugly diesel!! Might as well do one of those even uglier Brookville units done for CDOT. More likely, they are going to bring out an 0-6-0T switch engine with slide valve gearing. On the other hand, a 1/32 switch engine might be great for a model of a "park train". (If an NYC Hudson's tender barely reaches the top of a heavyweight passenger car, a dinky switcher would be dwarfed by a 40' boxcar.) 

Mark


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## George Adams (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff, 
Unfortunately you can't have the same expectations in large scale as you do in smaller scales. If "G" scale was 1/10th the size of HO it would be 10 times bigger than it is. There just isn't the market to justify a lot of models that are available in smaller scales. There is too much diversification of interest in large scale to allow a manufacturer to make much of the rolling stock and engines around. It would have been great if "in the beginning" 1/32 was the chosen scale for US prototype trains, but it wasn't and now 1/29 is too firmly entrenched for it to change now. 

George


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## MarkLewis (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 09/18/2008 9:48 AM 
Jeff, 
To me, it seems like they did very little market research to see what actual large scale railroaders were doing and what was wanted. Instead of going with the mainstream (1/29), and offering equipment that would compliment the broad range offered by the other two, they further splintered the market with 1/32 trains.

First get your history correct: 1/32 trains were being manufactured and sold well before Aristocraft (then doing business as REA) introduced 1/29. Aristo did fill a void in terms of quantity of models, and that scale has succeeded, but it was the worst possible choice for mainline modelers. Virtually nothing was being made to match that scale size in terms of accessories or non-RR vehicles when Aristocraft chose the oddball scale. After a quarter of a century, there is still virtually nothing made in 1/29 in buildings or non-RR vehicles.


MTH has filled a real void that scale modelers not into narrow guage crave. If narrow gauge modelers followed your line of reasoning, 1:20.3 would not have succeeded. 


Mark


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark, 

MTH should have paid attention to more recent history. Lionel tried and failed at 1/32 in the late 80s early 90s. MDC also had a line of 1/32 that did OK, but again, failed. Has been revived by Piko. 

The origins at this point are moot, but I am well aware of the history of large scale. My point was regarding the last 10 years of large scale. I consider the last 10 years to be the time of largest growth for this hobby. USA's GP-7, NW-2 and F3 really forced Aristo to sharpen their pencils. The SD-45 and Dash 9 have become staples of many layouts, along with the miles of 100 ton hoppers and Evans boxcars. Not to mention the USA intermodal cars. The only 1/32 available until recently commercially was super high end models, Aster, accucraft and Fine Arts come to mind. The majority of railroad equipment available for mainliners at the time when MTH entered the market was 1/29. To my knowledge, no one makes 1/32 (or 1/20.3) buildings, either. I can deal with my buildings being different sizes. 

And....are you, as a scale modeler, really that happy with the Railking One Gauge? Really? I have one piece of rolling stock, and think I overpaid and do not consider it to be the bees knees. A 40' boxcar with non-rotating roller bearing caps? And an LGB style latch? Only reason for the purchase was the paint on the outside. Credit where credit is due, they got the Pittsburgh Steelers colors and logos 100% accurate!! MB bought it for me as an anniversary present. It is a frequent runner on my railroad. However, it is clearly smaller than the rest of the equipment. 

What I don't get is that MTH has included things that I would have thought scale modelers would have screamed about, namely sliding shoes, oversized flanges, and the bulky knuckle coupler, swinging pilots, and proprietary control. So, they appear to be a cross between a Fine Arts Model and an LGB. There was an article about how to convert 3 MTH streamliners in to 2 accurate 1/32 ones. So, how is that being good to the 'scale' crowd? Sounds like 1/29, so why not do 1/29 from the start! The market is already in place and growing. Why limit your sales? It just seems like a big hullabaloo about what? A rail width? I'm not buying it. It was a marketing mistake, make no doubt. I only speak for myself, but I would have bought a Hudson, proprietary control or not. And probably a GG1. 

I'll give you that the steam engines are nicer than anything available in plastic steam outlines. But the proprietary control and sound make it a non-starter for me. I hate the idea of having to gut electronics or comvert my 20+ locomotives to their control system just to get a bell to ring or a whistle to blow. 

Other than a handful of people on this board, I don't know of anyone running MTH stuff. That tells me they made a mistake. 

Mark


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree Mark O. Why do we have two 1/29th companies. Should tell you something. And at least USAT does a good job of detailing. MTH is over priced in my book and to toy like in the diesel category. Later RJD


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

The plethora of different models being made is amazing to one who started in this hobby about 16 years ago. You had to make almost everything, so if something is not offered now you can always bash a close model into what you want. Several guys do decals/paint. It's fun! Everyone should count their blessings for what we have today and face the facts that this is not a hobby that has that many doing it, compared to most other hobbies. Jerry


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

The reason these companies went with 1:29 on gauge one track instead of the correct 1:32 for SG in that little kids they were marketing when they started went for the "wow" factor.( the bigger the better) I still think they should have just forgot the 45mm track and went right to 1/2": ft scale. Or better yet went right to gauge 3 track. But they didn't so now we have another division in the hobby. The up side is there is lots of choices in gauge one track. We model on gauge one track as 2ft NG, 3ft NG, 1m, metric, 4'-8.5" std gauge, 1:29, 1:24 
Mark, I don't think the scale had much to do with Lionel's failed attempt, their product was just over priced and under detailed. They did have a few good ideas like the rail scope engine, to bad the they made a bad choice in their selection of which engine to put it in. 
Those of us that model 1:32 in live steam are happy for companies like MTH and Accucraft who make 1:32 rolling stock. Anyone have any MTH NYC streamlines your looking to get rid of ?? I still need a few more. 
Jeff


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## leikec (Jul 19, 2008)

I'm no scale snob - I'd buy a 1/29 SD70Ace tomorrow if somebody brought one to market. But for many reasons, some which have already been mentioned, I don't expect to see a SD70Ace in that scale. I have nothing against the SD70MAC - and I might own one someday - but in a prototypical scheme.... 

But I wouldn't be surprised if MTH made a SD70Ace - I'm not expecting it, but I wouldn't rule it out, either. Again, please tell me why it would be more of a gamble for them than the PA-1 or the F-3... 

Jeff C


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Very well could be a SD70Ace coming from MTH...I've heard rumors for a couple of years now that MTH might be releasing one...Have to wait for the next one gauge catalog to be released.." border=0> 
Blah, blah, blah..same old bs argument about proprietary control..well what isn't a proprietary control system other than conventional track power?? 
Can the Aristo TE be used with say NWC or Locolink or DCC...no!! 
1/32 vs. 1/29...MTH responded to this question back in 2000 and yes they did plenty of market research..a company that does over 20 million a year in train sales must have a "handle" on the market...yes?? 
The reply was MTH is going to compete with Marklin the 1/32 train manufacturer. 
More trains have been made in 1/32 then in 1/29..it's a fact... 
http://www.galtran.com/GOTindex.html 
What doesn't suprise me is that MTH is out of stock of Big Boys, Challengers, Northerns & Hudsons. If anybody has been watching Ebay lately MTH Gauge One locos are bringing more $$$ now then when they were released..not bad for "not doing any market resaerch".." border=0> 
George..Lewis Polk should post another thank you letter to MTH over the Korea Brass, Korea Brass Trading & Hayege Trading injunction now that it's over...Since MTH has settled with KB/KBT/HT, Aristo-Craft can now import brass trains again.../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif" border=0>


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck, 

Blah, blah, blah..same old bs argument about proprietary control..well what isn't a proprietary control system other than conventional track power?? 

Can the Aristo TE be used with say NWC or Locolink or DCC...no!! 


I define 'proprietary' as "do I need their system to operate all functions?" At the bare minimum, can I blow the whistle and ring the bell with my DC power supply and track magnets? My LGB sound equipped locomotives will blow the whistle when they cross a magnet. The Mikado needs the MTS system and a decoder in order for me to get the 'crossing whistle', which I dislike. My Phoenix sound system will blow the whistle, ring the bell, blow down, etc.. at different voltages. I had started down the proprietary system path with the LGB MTS, but decided it wasn't where my interest lay, so I sold the central station and decoder. I use my Aristo TE track side engineer to control the trains. The whistles and bells are blown by sound unit settings and reed switches. 

1/32 vs. 1/29...MTH responded to this question back in 2000 and yes they did plenty of market research..a company that does over 20 million a year in train sales must have a "handle" on the market...yes?? 
The reply was MTH is going to compete with Marklin the 1/32 train manufacturer. 

More trains have been made in 1/32 then in 1/29..it's a fact... 

http://www.galtran.com/GOTindex.html 



MTH's bread and butter is in O Scale. No denying that market is humongous. And VERY expensive, relative to large scale. That market is an entirely different animal to large scale. MTH makes all their money in that market. As such, they came out with the single most popular prototype first, the New York Central Hudson. They picked the J3A instead of the J1E, but I believe that was because Charlie Ro was already doing the J1E. Then, what was next? How about something that every railroad used, like a USRA Light Pacific or a USRA Mikado? Nope. They are following what works in O gauge. That's fine, but I think that is not the scale group that HO scale is. 

Marklin makes models of European trains. Beautiful stuff. Accurate, as far a German prototypes go, so far as I can tell. The price tag seems to back that up. But perhaps MTH was going after the Marklin Maxi crowd? If that's the case, then maybe they have hit their target. It would make sense they'd go that way, since the Maxi stuff looks more like the MTH Tinplate than scale models. The simple fact is that USA and Aristo had made 1/29 the more popular scale for US outline model trains by 2000 largely because they were affordable!! $200 for a diesel? $300 for a steamer? $50 for boxcars? That was a bargain compared to LGB. I doubt most large scalers have even seen the Marklin I stuff. Point is, MTH missed the US market. IF Marklin is their targeted competetor, they have failed miserably to come up to the level of detail and sophistication found in the entire product range of Marklin (there's more to it than steam engines). If Marklin Maxi is their targeted benchmark, then we are in agreement, MTH blows that away. 

What doesn't suprise me is that MTH is out of stock of Big Boys, Challengers, Northerns & Hudsons. If anybody has been watching Ebay lately MTH Gauge One locos are bringing more $$$ now then when they were released..not bad for "not doing any market resaerch".. 


Checking MTH website, the following steam locomotives were in stock or at random, non large-scale dealers: 

In stock at MTH: 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-4 J-3a Hudson Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.0 New York Central 70-3010-1 IN STOCK 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.0 Denver Rio Grande 70-3014-1 SHIPPED (No dealers show any in stock, but MTH has them stored in their warehouse. Weird. How will they sell them there?) 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.0 Northern Pacific 70-3015-1 SHIPPED (One dealer shows one in stock, but MTH also has them stored in their warehouse.) 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.0 Delaware & Hudson 70-3013-1 SHIPPED (Same as above) 

Using the product search tool, I also found a bunch of 1 gauge locos that were canceled. 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-8-8-4 Big Boy Steam Engine Union Pacific 70-3009-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-8-4 Gs-2 Steam Engine Western Pacific 70-3012-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-8-4 Gs-2 Steam Engine Southern Pacific 70-3011-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine Denver Rio Grande 70-3014-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine Union Pacific 70-3016-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine Northern Pacific 70-3015-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine Delaware & Hudson 70-3013-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine Western Maryland 70-3017-0 Canceled 
2005 RK1Gauge RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-4 J3a Hudson Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.0 Chicago & Alton 70-3018-1 Canceled 

The cancelation list says to me that the sales of these loocmotives did not meet the expected load. I think that most of those roads actually operated Challengers, so where is the support from the Scale 1/32 crowd that demanded them?! I would venture to guess that the reason you can't find the above in stock at MTH locomotives listed as "in stock" at places like Trainworld, St Aubins, etc.. is because it took so long to deplete the inventory, that it wasn't worth reordering. All of those places still show those trains for sale on their websites, by the way. So they must simply wait until they have an order to place their orders. 

The other curious thing about MTH is they target the established market. Instead of offering starter sets, their strategy seems to indicate they want to go after those already in the hobby. Like as if, overnight, all of us with stuff that looks OK together were going to dump it all on ebay so that we could go for smaller, more expensive trains. 

Come on, Chuck, looking at the large scale market as it existed in 2000 and as it exists today, MTH clearly misread the market. maybe the O scale collectors are buying the stuff, but there's only a handful of people buying it, from what I have seen. 

That said, they will surely produce the SD70ACe!! But not until after they do a PRR S2 turbine, and a 726 Berkshire!!


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## George Adams (Jan 2, 2008)

Gee Chuck, 
I don't know where you get your info, but that is just one of the rumors/lies spread by dealers that can't be bothered to check their facts and would rather make up a story. At no time was there ever an injunction that kept Aristo from importing trains. File that in the round file along with the "factory has burned down. they are closed because of the olympics, the earthquake destroyed the factory stories." You can believe what you want, but if you want FACTS, I suggest checking with parties involved and not some lazy dealer or one with an agenda. I tried to be nice and send you a private message, but if you insist on spreading lies and rumors I will call you out in public. Would you like to make your source public? You can call me at the office anytime. 

George


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## MarkLewis (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 09/18/2008 2:54 PM
MTH should have paid attention to more recent history. Lionel tried and failed at 1/32 in the late 80s early 90s. 

I checked the current Lionel site. They are still in the 1/32 business.

Mark


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 09/22/2008 2:57 PM
Chuck, 

Blah, blah, blah..same old bs argument about proprietary control..well what isn't a proprietary control system other than conventional track power?? 

Can the Aristo TE be used with say NWC or Locolink or DCC...no!! 


I define 'proprietary' as "do I need their system to operate all functions?" At the bare minimum, can I blow the whistle and ring the bell with my DC power supply and track magnets? My LGB sound equipped locomotives will blow the whistle when they cross a magnet. The Mikado needs the MTS system and a decoder in order for me to get the 'crossing whistle', which I dislike. My Phoenix sound system will blow the whistle, ring the bell, blow down, etc.. at different voltages. I had started down the proprietary system path with the LGB MTS, but decided it wasn't where my interest lay, so I sold the central station and decoder. I use my Aristo TE track side engineer to control the trains. The whistles and bells are blown by sound unit settings and reed switches. 

1/32 vs. 1/29...MTH responded to this question back in 2000 and yes they did plenty of market research..a company that does over 20 million a year in train sales must have a "handle" on the market...yes?? 
The reply was MTH is going to compete with Marklin the 1/32 train manufacturer. 

More trains have been made in 1/32 then in 1/29..it's a fact... 

http://www.galtran.com/GOTindex.html 



MTH's bread and butter is in O Scale. No denying that market is humongous. And VERY expensive, relative to large scale. That market is an entirely different animal to large scale. MTH makes all their money in that market. As such, they came out with the single most popular prototype first, the New York Central Hudson. They picked the J3A instead of the J1E, but I believe that was because Charlie Ro was already doing the J1E. Then, what was next? How about something that every railroad used, like a USRA Light Pacific or a USRA Mikado? Nope. They are following what works in O gauge. That's fine, but I think that is not the scale group that HO scale is. 

Marklin makes models of European trains. Beautiful stuff. Accurate, as far a German prototypes go, so far as I can tell. The price tag seems to back that up. But perhaps MTH was going after the Marklin Maxi crowd? If that's the case, then maybe they have hit their target. It would make sense they'd go that way, since the Maxi stuff looks more like the MTH Tinplate than scale models. The simple fact is that USA and Aristo had made 1/29 the more popular scale for US outline model trains by 2000 largely because they were affordable!! $200 for a diesel? $300 for a steamer? $50 for boxcars? That was a bargain compared to LGB. I doubt most large scalers have even seen the Marklin I stuff. Point is, MTH missed the US market. IF Marklin is their targeted competetor, they have failed miserably to come up to the level of detail and sophistication found in the entire product range of Marklin (there's more to it than steam engines). If Marklin Maxi is their targeted benchmark, then we are in agreement, MTH blows that away. 

What doesn't suprise me is that MTH is out of stock of Big Boys, Challengers, Northerns & Hudsons. If anybody has been watching Ebay lately MTH Gauge One locos are bringing more $$$ now then when they were released..not bad for "not doing any market resaerch".. 


Checking MTH website, the following steam locomotives were in stock or at random, non large-scale dealers: 

In stock at MTH: 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-4 J-3a Hudson Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.0 New York Central 70-3010-1 IN STOCK 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.0 Denver Rio Grande 70-3014-1 SHIPPED (No dealers show any in stock, but MTH has them stored in their warehouse. Weird. How will they sell them there?) 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.0 Northern Pacific 70-3015-1 SHIPPED (One dealer shows one in stock, but MTH also has them stored in their warehouse.) 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.0 Delaware & Hudson 70-3013-1 SHIPPED (Same as above) 

Using the product search tool, I also found a bunch of 1 gauge locos that were canceled. 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-8-8-4 Big Boy Steam Engine Union Pacific 70-3009-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-8-4 Gs-2 Steam Engine Western Pacific 70-3012-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-8-4 Gs-2 Steam Engine Southern Pacific 70-3011-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine Denver Rio Grande 70-3014-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine Union Pacific 70-3016-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine Northern Pacific 70-3015-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine Delaware & Hudson 70-3013-0 Canceled 
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine Western Maryland 70-3017-0 Canceled 
2005 RK1Gauge RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-4 J3a Hudson Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.0 Chicago & Alton 70-3018-1 Canceled 

The cancelation list says to me that the sales of these loocmotives did not meet the expected load. I think that most of those roads actually operated Challengers, so where is the support from the Scale 1/32 crowd that demanded them?! I would venture to guess that the reason you can't find the above in stock at MTH locomotives listed as "in stock" at places like Trainworld, St Aubins, etc.. is because it took so long to deplete the inventory, that it wasn't worth reordering. All of those places still show those trains for sale on their websites, by the way. So they must simply wait until they have an order to place their orders. 

The other curious thing about MTH is they target the established market. Instead of offering starter sets, their strategy seems to indicate they want to go after those already in the hobby. Like as if, overnight, all of us with stuff that looks OK together were going to dump it all on ebay so that we could go for smaller, more expensive trains. 

Come on, Chuck, looking at the large scale market as it existed in 2000 and as it exists today, MTH clearly misread the market. maybe the O scale collectors are buying the stuff, but there's only a handful of people buying it, from what I have seen. 

That said, they will surely produce the SD70ACe!! But not until after they do a PRR S2 turbine, and a 726 Berkshire!! 


***************************

Regarding the cancelled engines, when MTH announced their 2004 catalog, they planned on producing engines that did not include the DCS protosound 2 system. But they quickly found out that there wasn't enough demand for their engines without the PS2 system and that it wasn't worth the increased inventory cost to keep this entire additional set of engines on hand and in stock. It was cheaper to produce one set of engines and let the customer pull out the Protosound 2 board if they didn't want it. So it really wasn't because of a lack of demand for those engine designs. (What tells you this was a non-protosound 2 engine is when you do a search on the first few numbers "70-3016" you pull two engines. One at a higher retail sale price than the other.) The MTH Big Boys without any question have been big sellers. They have in fact been selling still as of fairly recently as I my dealer friend has sharee with me. As enorumous as the USA Trains BB, I would still kill for plastic BBs in 1:29. 

And MTH, don't listen to any of these guys.... We want a UP 9000 next! ; )P hehehe


Raymond


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

George, Tell you what I'll be at the I Hobby Show at Rosemont next month and I'll drag your little bald butt over to the MTH booth and let you get straight from them.
Infact last time I talked to you face to face about the "new" lowered passenger cars and why no environmental package was installed as shown in the adds in the GR mag your mouth just dropped open and you shrugged your shoulders in a "uh..I don't know"..now THAT"S customer service..Ever ask Lewis why he won't post here?? ...










On April 2, 2008, United States district Court Judge John Corbett O’Meara issued a decision and order on both MTH’s motion for summary judgment and Defendant Korea Brass cross-motion for summary judgment. A party in a lawsuit generally makes a motion for summary judgment when it believes there no genuine issues of fact and it has a good faith basis for judgment as a matter of law without the need for a trial.

The court granted MTH’s motion for summary judgment on all three of its causes of action for fraud. It denied Korea Brass cross-motion to dismiss the complaint since the June 7, 2004 judgment in the trade secrets action became final against them since they did not appeal. The jury’s verdict was vacated in its entirety against Lionel, as they were successful on their appeal. Since Korea Brass did not appeal the trade secrets judgment, they did not get the benefit of the judgment being vacated as against Lionel. 

The district court in its opinion found that Korea Brass transfer of assets beginning on June 22, 2004 (two weeks after the judgment against them) to Model Korea Trading Corporation (MKT) was fraudulent.

Ultimately, as a result of granting MTH’s motion, the court entered a monetary judgment against MKT in the amount of $27.9 million dollars plus interest from November 3, 2004 (now a period of over 3 ½ years). 

The court also entered an order implementing its judgment. It directed MKT to notify each person and entity in the United States with which they do business of the entry of the money judgment. The court’s order also directed MKT to remit to MTH’s attorneys, any money or property they receive from any person or entity in the United States with whom they do business, until the judgment is satisfied. 

As a final nail in their coffin, MKT was directed to remit all future payments owed to them, to MTH’s attorneys, until the judgment is satisfied. Once other companies (like Lionel, Atlas, Broadway Limited, Aristo-Craft, USA Trains, etc) that formerly did business with MKT learned of this, it is unlikely they would continue do business with them. If the money MKT is owed is going straight to MTH’s lawyers rather than to MKT, they have no incentive to manufacture or deliver any product to their customers. 

George..as in my pm reply to you the other day just who builds the brass Aristo products??


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chucks_Trains on 09/22/2008 5:45 AM
Very well could be a SD70Ace coming from MTH...I've heard rumors for a couple of years now that MTH might be releasing one...Have to wait for the next one gauge catalog to be released..







" border=0> 
Blah, blah, blah..same old bs argument about proprietary control..well what isn't a proprietary control system other than conventional track power?? 
Can the Aristo TE be used with say NWC or Locolink or DCC...no!! 
1/32 vs. 1/29...MTH responded to this question back in 2000 and yes they did plenty of market research..a company that does over 20 million a year in train sales must have a "handle" on the market...yes?? 
The reply was MTH is going to compete with Marklin the 1/32 train manufacturer. 
More trains have been made in 1/32 then in 1/29..it's a fact... 
http://www.galtran.com/GOTindex.html 
What doesn't suprise me is that MTH is out of stock of Big Boys, Challengers, Northerns & Hudsons. If anybody has been watching Ebay lately MTH Gauge One locos are bringing more $$$ now then when they were released..not bad for "not doing any market resaerch"..







" border=0> 
George..Lewis Polk should post another thank you letter to MTH over the Korea Brass, Korea Brass Trading & Hayege Trading injunction now that it's over...Since MTH has settled with KB/KBT/HT, Aristo-Craft can now import brass trains again...







" border=0>

*****************************
Wow, lol I didn't read the initial posts just a couple so I'm not sure how this broke out but... 

That is exactly on the money on the proprietary control. When you step back and look at the reality of the state of control systems in this and other scales, you make a commitment to the control system you choose and buy that company's products, whether it be Aristocraft, RCS, MTH DCS, or even DCC. Aristo's system can't control RCS, DCC or DCS, RCS can't control Aristo, DCS or DCC, etc etc etc. Even with DCC I've heard you can't mix and match some base components(command station and remotes?). To say that MTH has a proprietary system and imply that all the other control systems are not proprietary is ignoring this fundamental fact. The reality is MTH sunk MAJOR DOLLARS in DCS to compete with Lionels TMCC in the O gauge market. (you can tell by how sophisticated the control system is and how good the sound quality is) MTH entered Largescale and took a huge risk by introducing a BIG line of engines, many of which were said they could never sell. (They did end up selling) They made further investments to beef up their Protosound 2 boards for G scale operation and rolled out their product line. They have introduced more largescale mainline engines in the last 5 years than many of the other competitors out there. Overall I think MTH has added to the hobby by adding an entire line of affordable plastic engines in 1:32 which gave those who model in 1:32 more options than they ever had before. Maybe I'm just strange but I view every new model that enters largescale as a positive thing, regardless of whether I want it or not, cause I know someone out there does.

On the swinging trucks, that is on the MTH diesels and is important to remember that they include in the box a separate set of trucks/pilots that secure to the frame and that don't swivel and make the engine look like a proper model. So in actuallity, MTH is offering up an option that no one else is ... the ability to run your engine on a 6 inch diameter curve.... >; )P

I didn't read much else and I have to run...


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry I know probably not the right thread but... OMG I can't wait for their One gauge version! 

I hear we are supposed to get the new quillable whistle on it as well.

http://www.railking1gauge.com/news2.asp#

I saw a video yesterday with an MTH Diesel with the quillable whistle as well. *drooling*

This is some slick stuff... 


Raymond


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

George, A bunch of us here know how you like to edit posts over on "your" forum to make you look good but that doesn't fly here.

Mark...It's real simple to activate the features of the MTH PS2 Sounds in conventional mode..just use a ac transformer..then again if you didn' talk out your butt and actually owned a MTH loco you would know this tad bit of info no??









Missed the market!!

Yeah you bet..that's why the 2nd production run of Union Pacific Big Boy's & Challengers are sold out









You posted...
2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-8-8-4 Big Boy Steam Engine Union Pacific 70-3009-0 Canceled

But on the MTH shipping schedule it states.. 2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-8-8-4 Big Boy Steam Engine Union Pacific 70-3009-1 SHIPPED

2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-8-4 Gs-2 Steam Engine Western Pacific 70-3012-0 Canceled 

But on the MTH shipping schedule it states...2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-8-4 Gs-2 Steam Engine Western Pacific 70-3012-1 SHIPPID

2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-8-4 Gs-2 Steam Engine Southern Pacific 70-3011-0 Canceled 

But on the MTH shipping schedule it states 2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-8-4 Gs-2 Steam Engine Southern Pacific 70-3011-1 SHIPPED

2004 RK1Gauge Vol. 1 RailKing One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Challenger Steam Engine Union Pacific 70-3016-0 Canceled

But on the MTH shipping schedule it states 2004 RK1 Gauge Vol. 1 Railking One Gauge Steam Locomotive 4-6-6-4 Steam Engine Union Pacific 70-3016-1 SHIPPID

And on the MTH One Gauge website there's a link to the 2007 MTH RailKing One Gauge Catalog with all of the cancelled locomotives on your list available except for the B&A 4-6-4 Hudson..Go figure??

http://www.railking1gauge.com/catalog/catalogweb/index2007RK1_v1.htm

Hmmm..Mark now let's take your favorite eggliner manufacturer and see what all has been canceled in the last few years...

ART-7211 Coaling Tower..where is it?? last I heard the excuse was "can't figure out how to ship it"?? Ya put it in a box stupid!!

PLKHE0817 1:30 Crane???

BRA1000 Rh B Steam Loco & Passenger Cars?? Last I seen LGBofA was selling them.

How's about the 900 MHZ Train Engineer??

Or the QSI Aristo sound that instead went to Dallee??

The Dash-9 that sits 3/8" to high engineering blunder?? 
Oh that's right the prototype modeled was out of fuel or "it's an illusion"..LOL

How about the "new and improved Prime Mover Gearbox"?? only problem is that the wheels fall off and/or get out of quarter..LOL

The new ART11906 track gauge is a real hit..only problem is it doesn't work with their own product!!

Latest one is a problem with the E8 front coupler??

Let's bring out a "revised" 25 yr. old steam locomotive in 1:24 scale..bet your running out to get that one to pull your 1/29 fleet!!

At least MTH doesn't have to copy the old LGBoA's G-45 red/white emblem and stamp it on their box to sell trains!!


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## Jim Francis (Dec 29, 2007)

Chuck and George:

Please knock off the personal attacks! 


If you must continue, please do it by e-mail or some other form of communication that does not show on MLS.

Jim Francis, Moderator


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck,

You said:
"Mark...It's real simple to activate the features of the MTH PS2 Sounds in conventional mode..just use a ac transformer..then again if you didn' talk out your butt and actually owned a MTH loco you would know this tad bit of info no?? "

OK, you have just made my point for me, so I am not sure why the personal attack? I have DC transformers to run my trains. All of them, except the live steam engine, will run on straight DC Power (I run LGB, USA, MDC, Hartland, Bachmann and Aristo locomotives, FYI). The ones with sound will blow a whistle and ring a bell if they run over a track magnet (LGB digital, LGB analog and Phoenix). You are telling me that in order to get the sound functions without the MTH DCS system, *I still need an entirely NEW transformer*. That's one of my main points about MTH missing the market. Had they done some homework, they would have found out that most of us run using DC power. You need their system to activate the features when using a conventional DC Power supply. You can say what you will about USA and Aristo, but without those two guys making CHEAP trains, this forum would not exist. Control systems and sound systems can be fit to those engines easily. Your choice. Battery, DCC, DCS, and regular old DC. Seems like a no brainer that if MTH really had set out to dominate this market, they would have made their trains have at least the whistle and bell feature work with reed switches. However, they chose to go the route of their already developed for O gauge DCS system, which doesn't do that. 

And you are right, I do not have a G scale MTH locomotive, for the very reasons *you* have mentioned above. I do have ONE 40' boxcar, and I guess I should take a picture of that and one of the ARisto, USA, or LGB boxcars I've got, and then you can see for yourself EXACTLY what I am talking about. It is noticably smaller, and I would not call it a scale model by any means. Again, as I have stated previously, the only reason I have it is for the Steelers logo! 

Ray - I see your point that components from the systems are not interchangable. My point about "proprietary control" with the MTH trains is you need either their equipment or an AC transformer for those specific locomotives . The fundamental item here is that with straight DC power, you cannot get the whistle to blow. I need their system, or a completely new transformer for that company's line of trains. Also, I didn't see a $250-$300 discount on the non-DCS versions, so no wonder they didn't sell, but it wasn't even clear from the descriptions that those locos were not equipped with PS2. 

Still, Chuck's claim that there are none in stock is simply not true, at least as of the time of his statement as such. 

I don't have a problem with MTH doing what they want to do. It is their money, after all. They have simply missed the market, that's all. Too much proprietary sound/control, wrong choice for North American Mainline scale industry trend. Ray even said that he'd love to have a plastic 1/29 scale Big Boy. I don't think he's alone.


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## leikec (Jul 19, 2008)

Guys, 

This is a speculative thread about an engine that isn't made - and that's all it is. Please, no more insulting comments or personal slams - I wouldn't have posted if I knew this would be the result... 

Jeff C


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

By the tenor of this discussion, I would have guessed that some of the participants were shareholders in the respective companies. I simply don't get the ferocity with which people either defend or attack model railroad products - I own 4 MTH one gauge locomotives. I enjoy them, but they aren't perfect. No big deal . . .


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

It is just like sports fans and their favourite team. Some people like the sport alone, others get tied to a team and some have a favoured player/star. Often selfworth gets wrapped up in what people have chosen, so any belittlement is immediately transfered to the "fan" and that is an insult. An attack on what is loved is an attack on the "love-ee". 

"It is not smart, or correct, but it's one of the things that makes us what we are."


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

Well that's what I get for staying away..... my computer had a cold. Anyhow, You think this is ugly???








beauty is in the eye..........

I got sick of other systems and incompatability issues so I'll stay clear of your control system choices. I run DCS and it's great.

The true value of anything is what would you pay. I like sound in my engines. I like to have some control of lashup, uncoupling, and realistic operations. I don't get that from straight dc but maybe I did not try hard enough. I have MTH one gauge engines that are over 4 years old and I run them. They are a great value. 
I wonder who's going to tell me that I should have bought another brand, and added a decoder with sound and changed the bulbs and moved the functions and changed the cvs and upgraded the smoke units and bought boosters and throttles........oh ya I did that and their sitting on the shelf!
You may have seen their 40 ft box car that is plain. Take a look at their hopper and tell me what you think. Take a look at their flat with trailer or the rest. The cars have a toy like look, isn't that what you bought from LGB, and Aristo for years. Their cars will turn better and still look good on larger layouts.








Joe Paonessa


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## marc iacobucci (Oct 14, 2012)

I called MTH about 2 weeks ago. Their plan is to EVENTUALLY(maybe late 2013) make an SD70ACe in G scale. They were deciding between an ES44AC and the SD70ACe and I told them they should do an SD70ACe. An MTH dealer Gary Raymond told me MTH's next new locomotive(SD70ACe) has written drawings and plans. So it seems it is just a matter of time. If the SD70ACe comes out in 2013 I will buy 2 of them.


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

Remember that MTH just bought into a line of "S" scale. Resources will have to be allocated to that new endeavor, and "O" is not going to suffer because of it.


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

Remember that MTH just bought into a line of "S" scale. Resources will have to be allocated to that new endeavor, and "O" is not going to suffer because of it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not giving anyone a hard time, but this is what, the 3rd or 4th MTH thread where the same "announcements" are quoted that there will be a new catalog, (of course) and that they MAY or POSSIBLY, or WANT TO make new locos. 

It's cool that you desire new products, but please don't get upset and chastise the forum because no one wants to re-hash this speculation of "will they or won't they have new locos in 2013" 

(meaning your comment below) 

*17 Sep 2008 09:36 PM *
* Okey-dokey... *

* Nobody cares. *

* Jeff C *


(I'm all for more new products in G scale by ANY manufacturer, especially MTH since they are starting to embrace DCC







). 

Greg


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## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

MORE bs from MTH ON 2013 product not likely as you can see from the players........... Euro is were it's at Bro Bro, Bro your Boat gently down the G........merirly merily life is but a DREAM.



Jafro. who's your Dady


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

Well the 2013 club car is on the MTH site now, http://www.mthtrains.com/content/70-75032 

Hopefully good sign for MTH One gauge. 

Alan


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did not know they had stainless steel wheels. Do all their 1:32 rolling stock have stainless wheels? 


Greg


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## derPeter (Dec 26, 2010)

No, they are brass made

greetings from Peter


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll stay out of the fray when it comes to MTH, but when I saw the picture in Enginears post I thought you guys might like to see a picture I took of the real one--brand spanking new sitting in the Stratford Ontario (Canada) yard waiting for payment and shipping to CSX. The Stratford yard has lots of room, that's why they were there and not in London at the (now closed) factory.
Hard to see #4839 but you can see it from the back with all its siblings:


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Wasn't the original post about the Heritage Fleet? Isn't half of NS's new fleet Dash-9"s and the other half SD-70ace's? I am thinking of painting The Nickel Plate or The N&W cause I believe they are both Dash-9"s*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Peter: from the link to the club car above:

"Each car's standard features are often extras on other manufacturer's cars. Only M.T.H. gives you* stainless steel wheels* and axles, two types of couplers and polycarbonate bodies for indoor and outdoor use as standard equipment. " 


Posted By derPeter on 18 Jan 2013 04:39 PM 
No, they are brass made

greetings from Peter


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Rex, you'll have to excuse my ignorance, but the original post is about what the subject is, SD70Ace.... are all SD70Ace's heritage units? 

I'm kind of old school, I believe what a thread is about is what the OP asked

... unless it's gone to typical "thread ****" and spanned many pages AFTER the original question has been answered.










Greg


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