# Best recommendation on "DC power pack"



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, I don't need this answered for myself, I'm thinking of the new persons who ALWAYS ask this question.

So, I'm sort of seeking consensus among us more experienced guys in what's a good recommendation.

So, when I try to figure stuff out, I was trained to break the problem down into it's parts.

So, the parts I come up with is "pure dc" vs PWM, current, voltage, cost.

*DC vs. PWM*
So for DC vs. PWM, I'd say with modern locos there's no difference. It's sort of a crap shoot, PWM will give better low speed control, brighter lights at slow speeds and better output from smoke systems.

On the other hand, older stuff may go nuts on PWM, even Aristo's locos often had flickering of lights since they ran some from microprocessor based regulators.

Also old sound cards, notably the SoundTraxx Sierra go nuts on PWM. 

*Current*
I cannot see recommending anything under 5 amps to anyone. Yes, you can run one small LGB on under an amp. So what, as soon as someone adds lights, sound, a second loco, all of a sudden there is a post on the forum, "hey my locos run slow", or "I bought a USA Trains XXX and it does not run". Just plain wasteful for something you buy and keep 10 years.

*Voltage*
Again, I'm sure I will hear from a narrow gauge modeller that never runs over 35 smph, but I would say anything under 20 volts is not good for G scale, and there are some locos that need 24 volts for proper operation (the LGB track cleaning car for example). Again, for something you will use for 10 years, getting something that does not put out the correct voltage will just cause operation issues, and smoke units might not put out enough also.

*Cost*
Jeeze, I know many people are on limited incomes, but the logic of buying a cheap supply, and having 3 $600 locos just excapes me. Track, and then power are the foundation of your layout. Cheap out on either and your hobby turns from fun into a chore. Again, consider this power pack as an investment and amortized over 10 years.

*Conclusion*
Consistently, the 10 amps MRC "power G", a simple DC power supply with a big lever, correct voltage, simple and rugged construction is my recommendation. I'd consider Bridgeworks a second, but the cost is higher, but a 5 amp unit, perhaps used would be a good choice.

So what are your guys' "standard" answers to this often posed question?

Gregt


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

I have two MEAN WELL HRP-450-24 24V 18.8A 450w Power Supply one is a back up. I got both for under $40 each with shipping from ebay and they work great.
cheers Dick


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

You have named two solid throttles. Bridgewerks has such a good name and reputation they often sell themselves. Some want LGB, period. The 10 AMP MRC is hard to beat for the price.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

For someone new who doesn't know exactly what they want as far as locomotive power and are not tied to LGB as you mention, I don't think you can go wrong with the MRC 10amp. It will handle pretty much anything you power up and do it at a reasonable cost. Now, 2-3 years into the hobby, if the hobbyist is still interested and looking to do more, than I can see Bridgewerks being the obvious next step.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, we _can _agree!  (And do, far more often than you realize.) In terms of throttles which one can recommend without hesitation or qualification, I can't argue against any of your selections. They're all very solid units. LGB's "Jumbo" would make my list as well. Pricey, but very solid. 

Also, don't forget the various trackside throttle controls which use external power supplies like the Meanwell that Dick mentioned. Those would include Aristo's Train Engineer (in any of its forms), G Scale Graphic's Trackside RailBoss, and RCS's "Titan" trackside controller. These provide wireless control, which has distinct advantages in the garden. One need only add a PWM-Linear filter to the output of these if a linear voltage output were desired. 

I might also add the Dallee "Engineer" throttle to your list. Dallee's web site says it's currently unavailable, but they're considering bringing it back. I did a review of this throttle when it came out a while back, and I really liked it. It works more like a prototype locomotive's throttle, where you use the brake to slow the train as opposed to simply turning down the knob so the loco stops. It has a tethered handheld option as well. Not as flexible as a wireless option, but you're at least somewhat mobile. (Edit - I looked at the fine print of their promotional flyer. The price is really steep - $1,5,00! I'm not sure that's going to be high on anyone's wish list at that price, but I like the operating premise.)

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dick, I'm looking at the combination power supply and "throttle"... meanwell is a power supply only...

Kevin: I'm wanting to look at the traditional "controller" all in one box, so the LGB is a good suggestion I forgot, thanks, but expanding to wireless systems and separate power supplies is not necessarily what I want to recommend to first time DC users.

Once you start down that path, I think a person should start thinking about remote control, battery, r/c, DCC, etc.

The LGB Jumbo might be a candidate indeed, and also the smaller 5 amp unit... I'll need to compile the "street prices", but they should probably be in the list.

I'll look at the Dallee, but if it's not available off the shelf, I won't recommend it to anyone, especially a beginner!

There's also the USAT 10 amp system, but I've heard a lot of breakdowns and problems with this unit, looking for a solid performer, trouble free.

Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

The 10 A USA is selling well. I have had just a couple with problems, USA Trains has taken care of those with no hesitation. The 5A LGB is two separate items, power supply and throttle.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg,
My comments on your comments:


> *DC vs. PWM*
> So for DC vs. PWM, I'd say with modern locos there's no difference. It's sort of a crap shoot, PWM will give better low speed control, brighter lights at slow speeds and better output from smoke systems.
> 
> On the other hand, older stuff may go nuts on PWM, even Aristo's locos often had flickering of lights since they ran some from microprocessor based regulators.
> ...


Most of my 60 or so locos are LGB.
The older, simple ones do benefit from PWM in the ways you stated but as soon as one adds a simple sound system like the LGB steam or diesel sound in the box car, things go haywire with the sound.
Most of the newer LGB locos include a 5 volt regulator and use 5 volt lights and smoke units, so lights are at constant brightness and smoke is at maximum output at any speed with a DC supply



> *Current*
> I cannot see recommending anything under 5 amps to anyone. Yes, you can run one small LGB on under an amp. So what, as soon as someone adds lights, sound, a second loco, all of a sudden there is a post on the forum, "hey my locos run slow", or "I bought a USA Trains XXX and it does not run". Just plain wasteful for something you buy and keep 10 years.


I would agree with your 5 amp minimum recommendation unless all one wants is to run a Stainz around the Christmas tree once a year.
I ran some measurements on a typical passenger train I run, a two-motor RhB electric loco pulling 12 lit RhB 4-axle passenger cars. Worst case current draw was just under 3 amps going up a 2 1/2% inclune - that was with all cars lit but no sound and obviously no smoke.
Sound and smoke would easily add another amp.



> *Voltage*
> Again, I'm sure I will hear from a narrow gauge modeller that never runs over 35 smph, but I would say anything under 20 volts is not good for G scale, and there are some locos that need 24 volts for proper operation (the LGB track cleaning car for example). Again, for something you will use for 10 years, getting something that does not put out the correct voltage will just cause operation issues, and smoke units might not put out enough also.


I really don't understand why G scale power pack manufacturers don't all design their power packs to deliver 24 VDC.
One can always reduce the voltage if the train runs to fast but one obviously can't increase the voltage if the train runs too slow and the throttle is at maximum.
And as you have pointed out here and elsewhere, for some locos the full 24 volts is required to run them properly.
[/QUOTE]



> *Conclusion*
> Consistently, the 10 amps MRC "power G", a simple DC power supply with a big lever, correct voltage, simple and rugged construction is my recommendation. I'd consider Bridgeworks a second, but the cost is higher, but a 5 amp unit, perhaps used would be a good choice.


On the MRC "Power G" - does anyone have more technical information than what is available on MRC's website and on the unit itself?
The labeling shows 22 VDC and 10 amps but no VA rating - can the unit really deliver 10 amps at 22 VDC.
From reading various old posts on mls and elsewhere, it seems to me that this unit is basically a variac with a rectifier, minimal filtering if any,a simple toggle switch for direction and some overload protection.
Has anyone had this unit open to see what's inside or better yet have a schematic?

Knut


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I have a 10A MRC open that is malfunctioning, no semantic. The overload light was coming on with nothing connected.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, if the pack is rated in voltage and current, then it's the current at all voltages.

It's VA that is deceptive, VA means at SOME voltage and SOME current the product of them is the VA rating.

Almost always at max voltage the VA rating is not achieved.

Unfortunately the VA rating is still used, and most people need the current at heavy loads, which is often higher voltages, as the load increases, losses from rails and wiring and connections increase, thus more throttle.

The Power G is true 10 amps up to rated voltage. Take the average MRC pack for G, like the 6200, it's output current sags as you increase voltage. 

Most of the MRC packs are like this, and many people can't understand it because they assume the VA rating is good at ALL combinations of voltage and current.

I first ran into this in about 2009 when my LGB track cleaner would not run... I watched the output voltage and current of my MRC 6200, and since the LGB track cleaner needs higher voltage to spin the cleaning wheels, basically the more I turned it up, the less it ran. I gave it to Ray Dunakin, who was running small locos slowly. 

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The LGB Jumbo has lots of features, but its power output is misleading to the non-techs. 22 volts, 10 amps but 130VA. nSo when over 13 volts the current is no longer 10 amps!!

On another note as people upgrade engines to digital for sound on DC operations, PWM/PWC can confuse some digital decoders and the small supplies will not run these decoders as the storage caps, smoke, sound lights are all active at low voltages and can over load the less than 2 amp starter set supplies.

Starter set supplies are great for the small trains under the Christmas trees, but I would not use anything under an amp.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Knut, if the pack is rated in voltage and current, then it's the current at all voltages.


Greg,
Maybe I'm reading your comment wrong, but if a pack is rated in voltage and current, 22 volts and 10 amps for the MRC unit, that doesn't mean that it can actually deliver 10 amps at 22 volts - especially when it comes to moder railroad power packs which I find are usually poorly designed from a power supply perspective.
The LGB Jumbo for instance is rated at 24 volts and 10 amps but it sure can't deliver 10 amps at 24 volts.
Unless the MRC unit has some regulation built in, it will either not deliver 10 amps at 22 volts or the voltage will exceed 22 volts at low currents.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually Knut, the convention over here is if the current is specified alone, then that is max current up to rated output.

Yes, MOST model RR packs are specified in VA, which has the issue of not all combinations of voltage and current meet the VA rating.

But individuals will vary, and not all people follow the convention. I will let you know from personal experience that the MRC power G will put out 10 amps at full rated voltage. I have one. But I will have to actually measure the output voltage for how much sag there is at full current.

Good info on the Jumbo.

Your last sentence is incorrect, not having regulation does not make it so a power supply cannot output full voltage and current.

Back to the basics of transformer specifications, the accepted industry standard is that you can have no more than 10% sag in the output voltage at full rated current.

This is what electrical engineers and electronics supply companies use. 

And if we were talking transformer only, your last sentence would be operational, BUT as I have stated before, looking at "power packs" where the power supply AND the "Throttle" are all in one box.

Therefore, since the output voltage is variable, I would guess that at "Full throttle" and no load the voltage would be higher that the rated voltage indeed.

I will eventually pull mine apart and look inside, I believe they are pretty simple.

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Treeman said:


> I have a 10A MRC open that is malfunctioning, no semantic. The overload light was coming on with nothing connected.


Can you take a few pictures of the inside of the MRC?
If there is a board inside, take a close-up of that if you can preferable in a way where one can read the component designation.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Your last sentence is incorrect, not having regulation does not make it so a power supply cannot output full voltage and current.


That's only half of what I said..
I said:


> Unless the MRC unit has some regulation built in, it will either not deliver 10 amps at 22 volts *or the voltage will exceed 22 volts at low currents*.


In other words if the MRC actually delivers 10 amps at 22 volts then the voltage output will increase above 22 volts at lower current draws.

It would be great if you can take some voltage vs current measurements of that MRC unitand also draw out a schematic. 

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike: I'd like to see the inside too.

If you get stuck, I could open mine and we can compare voltages.

If it follows MRC tradition, most likely an output transistor is shorted.

Knut:

Yes, I think we are in sync, an equivalent way to say this, if I can get 22v at 10 amps, and remove the load, the output voltage should rise. But if the system is spec'd properly, it should rise by no more than 10%. In this case, I do not know.

Anyway, the point of this thread is to determine a good selection of "power packs" to recommend to new people running DC. This detailed discussion, while interesting, is not what I was trying to get at. I would love to find out how well the Jumbo performs at high currents. 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Gee Greg, I was looking forward to your measurements and detailed comments on the MRC power pack after you posted this:



Greg Elmassian said:


> I will let you know from personal experience that the MRC power G will put out 10 amps at full rated voltage. I have one. But I will have to actually measure the output voltage for how much sag there is at full current.


and this



> I will eventually pull mine apart and look inside, I believe they are pretty simple.


As to that the point of this thread is to determine a good selection of "power packs" to recommend to new people running DC. - I agree, the question as to which DC power pack to use comes up quite often and some recommendations would be good, but up to now only two condenders were mentioned - the MRC AG 990 and Bridgewerks - not much of a selection; I mean a choice of two is not much of a selection, not that either of these power packs is inadequate.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The units mentioned are 5, not 2.



 MRC AG990
Bridgeworks 5 amp
LGB Jumbo
LGB 5 amp unit
USAT 10 amp system
probably should add Bridgeworks next up from 5 amp.


Want to do some more research on LGB true capacity, and a fair picture on the USAT. There's no question on the quality of the Bridgeworks, or the output capacity.

Your comments are more in the spirit of giving me a hard time than helping compile a good selection for new users. 


Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Your comments are more in the spirit of giving me a hard time than helping compile a good selection for new users.
> Greg


I'm sorry you feel that way - that certainly wasn't my intention.

I know nothing about the MRC AG 990 other than what is on the MRC website and in the various posts I found on line so I thought getting some input from you since you have one would be very useful.

As far as the five power packs you listed...
I eliminated the LGB Jumbo and the LGB integrated 5 amp one in my mind since they have not been available for quite a while now - one can find used ones on ebay of course; the USAT 10 amp unit probably qualifies even though the controller is not integrated but a separate unit.

LGB has gone to a separate power supply/throttle approach, so has Piko.
They both have 5 amp throttles that need to be connected to a 24 VDC power supply. It's an approach I prefer for DC operation - maybe you should consider including those units.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry, did not know the lgb units are not available new... that was part of the research I want to complete, but perhaps I segment the list, so people starting on a budget might save a few bucks... but I suppose that is also a double-edged sword, people new to the hobby may not have the tools and/or experience to buy used equipment.

Good point.

If the trend is separate power supplies and controllers, will have to consider that. The goal is a good choice for people starting on DC and not running out of power for a second engine, or one power hungry loco.

Greg


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

So, what makes having separate power supplies and controllers preferable? Other than being able to replace one or the other if one fails? I can see the advantage if you're talking wireless, but if it's stationary, maybe it's cost as a generic power supply can be used.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually Randy, for this purpose, a recommendation to a beginner on a reasonable unit, my opinion an all in one unit is just simpler for them, and more convenient.

But if more standalone "DC" throttles are coming out, that might be a good deal too. The Aristo throttle with a power supply was a popular unit, reasonably priced, but NLA of course.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Randy Stone said:


> So, what makes having separate power supplies and controllers preferable? Other than being able to replace one or the other if one fails? I can see the advantage if you're talking wireless, but if it's stationary, maybe it's cost as a generic power supply can be used.


I like a separate power supply and controller for several reasons.

The main reason is that I can "mix and match" - I can chose the controller type I personally prefer based on User Interface and features and the power supply based on performance and cost.
Many years ago I bought a Meanwell switching power supply to go with a separate throttle of my own design to run my trains and that worked much better than the LGB power pack I had used previously. Big difference was the regulated output of the Meanwell vs the transformer non-regulated output of the LGB power pack.
I don't think any of the integrated power packs mentioned so far uses a regulated switching supply internally.

Other reasons are that separate units in the end I think are cheaper (need to validate that). I could use a single 15 amp Meanwell and connect three 5 amp throttles to it to get the same functionality as three 5 amp power packs.

Manufacturers weent with separate units to reduce cost - throttles using 24 VDC (or AC) as the input can now be sold globally which drives up the sales volume and reduces the cost (no more 115 volt and 230 volt power packs), also there is no requirement to go through a certification process which was the case with power packs connected to line voltage.
And as you mentioned - separate generic switching supplies are much lower in cost & price due to the high sales volume;they have already gone through the approval process and are usually also designed to operate over a wide range of input voltages covereing both 115 and 230 VAC.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've started a web page on this, there's so much to go over... see what you guys think, it is NOT finished...

https://elmassian.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=722&Itemid=1108

Good points on one power supply and multiple throttles, I will include that idea in my page...

Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg, are you familiar with the newer MRC's? The 9900 and the 9950.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I spent a bit of time this morning to put this together as a basis covering G-scale DC power packs that are currently in production and available:

1. MRC AG990 (Power G) ….Spec: 22 volts, 10 amps $US 265.-
2. Bridgewerks Magnum 5-SR …. Spec: 24-30 VDC, 5 amps $US 410.-
3. Bridgewerks Magnum 10-SR …. Spec: 24-30 VDC, 10 amps $US 470.-
4. USA Trains RTP 10 …. Spec: 20 volts, 10 amps (180VA to track) $US 190.-
5a. LGB 51079 (Throttle only) …. Spec: 24 volts, 5 amps $US 180.-
5b. LGB 52120 (Throttle in hut) …. Spec: 24 volts, 5 amps $US 125.- 
5c. LGB 52121 (Throttle panel mount) …. Spec: 24 volts, 5 amps $US 90.- 
5d. LGB 51095 (Switching supply) …. Spec: 230VAC / 19VDC / 100VA $US103.-
6a. Piko 35002 (Throttle only) …. Spec: 22 volts, 5 amps $US 152.-
6b. Piko 35020 (Switching supply) …. Spec: 120VAC / 24V / 5 amps $US 80.-

For each one there should be additional comments to summarize features, type of controls etc.

In my short research I couldn't quite figure out exactly what the story is on the LGB switching supply.
Every picture I looked at shows the input as 230 VAC only but "Only Trains" in the US offers that supply on their website so I assume a 115 VAC version is available or the basic unit will accomodate both 115 and 230VAC.
I was also surprised that the LGB switching supply only provides 19VDC - sounds like a repackaged computer power supply.

In general, I think we (whoever has one of these and has the knowledge and capability to do some basic testing) should also verify/add actual performance data to make this information more useful.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Treeman said:


> Greg, are you familiar with the newer MRC's? The 9900 and the 9950.


The MRC 9950 was discussed here on mls not too long ago.
Someone bought it and couldn't run their trains at a reasonable speed.
Basic issue was that the maximum DC voltage to the track was too low - MRC spec says 18 VDC max.

I looked at the MRC Throttlepack 9900 when searching for suitable DC power packs that meet Greg's criteria.
The MRC 9900 has both too low a voltage output at 18 VDC (spec) and is only rate at 80VA - that powre pack will definitely not provide the 5amp output Greg suggesterd as a target.

But having said that, if one runs only slow trains or narrow gauge and if the power requirements don't include multiple motor locos, sound, smoke, lit cars - these power packs may be adequate.
Trouble is that these power packs don't allow room for future growth of the railroad.

For some reason many North American manufacturers think the maximum G-Scale track voltage is 16 or 18 volts and design accordingly.

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

For kicks I decided to take a quick look at what's available in 24 volt/5 amp switching supplies.

I was a bit surprised how cheap they really are
An open frame one which a manufacturer could incorporate with their throttle in a case is only $19.30 and a table top one like the LGB or Piko unit is just under $40.-
That's in quantities of one.
With quantities the price drops, $16.29 each for 100 of the open frame and that's not even wholesale.
http://www.jameco.com/shop/keyword=24-Volt-5-Amp-Power-Supply

BTW - I did some testing of a Meanwell 24 VDC, 6 amp supply years ago - it was around $60.- at the time.
That Meanwell met all it's specs very handily - maximum output was around 6.5 amps and voltage was rock solid at 24 VDC with extremely low ripple.
The only minor issue was that the voltage would increase slightly at very low currents in the 0 to 300ma range.
If that is a potential problem one could just add a bleed resistor to make sure the voltage never exceeds 24 VDC.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, so you can actually get a "name brand" switcher cheap, and a no name really cheap. I have 10 year old meanwells that run well and have been outside in non-sealed enclosures.

I have an issue with most MRC units, they are just not rugged, the output voltage is low, and the VA rating conceals the fact that the amps is pretty low. You can search the Internet and find all kinds of problems, normally blown output transistors. So even though the design is simple, the failure rate is high. I have not researched the specifications of the output transistors to see if they are being run too hard, nor have I evaluated what kind of overcurrent technology is being used to see if that is a weak point, suffice to say their track record is poor.

Notable exception: I get good reports from the power G unit (of course Mike has a dead one ha ha), maybe just because it has more output, I don't know. I will open it and check out the construction.

Knut, if you don't mind, I'll copy your list to my site as a starting point... I do want to post "street prices" too, as some items are often sold at a discount and some almost never.

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Knut, if you don't mind, I'll copy your list to my site as a starting point... I do want to post "street prices" too, as some items are often sold at a discount and some almost never.
> Greg


Go right ahead - that is the purpose of this exercise - to make this information generally available.
The prices are mostly selling prices from the "Only Trains" website.
I picked those because that site came up on google first and most of the power packs were all on one page with their prices.
I'm sure each of these units could be purchased a bit cheaper elsewhere if one takes the time to search.
On the LGB switched mode power supply, perhaps Dan knows if there is a version for North-America.
And as to the separate powre and throttle arrangement - another benefit would be for outdoor layouts where one can keep the high voltage stuff inside and have the low voltage throttle outside.

Greg, I was thinking that on your website it wouldn't hurt if you also covered the smaller MRC units in a separate paragraph since people who are looking for a G-scale DC supply are going to wonder about those (since they are being advertized to be G-scale compatible) and maybe in another paragraph cover some of the better know power packs that are no longer available new but show up on ebay from time to time.
One Jumbo just sold for $325.- and another one is being offered right now for $350.-


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually I'm going to put in a section of what to avoid... will probably raise some hackles, but if I had a buck for every person who wonders why their LGB starter supply does not run a USAT diesel, or people who cannot get prototype speed from an MRC 6200, I be able to retire today.

I updated the page, still unorganized, but that's how I do stuff...

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg,

I'm glad you brought up starter set power packs.
The old LGB ones were pretty marginal especially if one used the accessory terminals to power anything.
But in 2011 when LGB went to the separate switch mode supplies and throttle, they introduced a 36 watt/18 VDC switched mode power supply with a matching throttle, part numbers LGB 51090 and 51099 respectively.
The smaller version of the LGB units in the list.
Still not a powerhouse but a lot better than wehat used to come with LGB starter sets.

Question that is still open - what power supply is available for 115 VAC, the LGB 51090 is a 230 VAC unit.
I'll drop Ron Gibson a line to see what he has to say

Knut


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Some of the newer LGB starter sets had a wall transformer and that unit was only 14 volts. Corded power supply was more like 20 volts. Speed controller was the same for both.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Dan,

Do you have a model/product number for the 14 volt wall trsnsformer?

Seems to me there is a big disconnect between what LGB ships in "115 volt" countries vs "230 volt" countries. Dealers in Germany were quite pleased when LGB started shipping the upgraded power pack with starter sets.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I do not have the model number but I will keep a look out for one and let you know if I find one.


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## Boatfixx (Oct 29, 2017)

Is a, "DC Powerpack" the same as what I used to call a,"Transformer" back in the 1960's? 
I'm new to the G-Scale hobby.
And I mean I know nothing about it except a glance through a few "Garden Railway" mags and I'm hooked. I bought a new, Bachmann 3 Truck Shay, and a K-27. I Intend to run higher end USA themed locomotives. Primarily work locomotives, i.e. logging and mining. So far, my layout plans call for 430+- feet of track with one 3.5% grade and one 2.5% grade. I intend to use all modern made units and what they offer as far as DCC. To this point I only own the two locomotives. I'm now part time retired, and this is a long term endeavor. 
My question: What transformer would you suggest? I'm not wanting to buy low and graduate. I'd prefer to buy what I need to run 430 feet of track with grades, and run these locomotives and pulling many working cars with ease. I expect to operate numerous switches, a round house, sound and smoke. Thank you! BoatFixx


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Depends on if you start DC and go to DCC, or go right to DCC lilke I did.

Read the first post please... your answer is there.

Greg


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## Boatfixx (Oct 29, 2017)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Depends on if you start DC and go to DCC, or go right to DCC lilke I did.
> 
> Read the first post please... your answer is there.
> 
> Greg


Thank you.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So now you have a good discussion on a "power pack", a goofy term, but basically a DC power supply with a variable output designed to run an analog DC train.

Now, if you were to go directly to DCC, you would want just a power supply, no variable output.

Even the word "throttle" means different things to different people, I use the term to mean the electronics that will take a fixed power input and cause variable power to the loco, but in DCC a throttle really only sends commands, it by itself does not vary the track voltage (and to be even more confusing, the DCC track voltage never varies).

And yes, "transformer" is what I called them in my Lionel days, and now I use that term exclusively for a chunk of metal laminates with 2 or more windings to step up or down AC voltage.

It just ain't easy any more!

Greg


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## Boatfixx (Oct 29, 2017)

Greg Elmassian said:


> So now you have a good discussion on a "power pack", a goofy term, but basically a DC power supply with a variable output designed to run an analog DC train.
> 
> Now, if you were to go directly to DCC, you would want just a power supply, no variable output.
> 
> ...


Yes, after reading here, at your personal website and elsewhere, I'm going direct to DCC. Logically, to actually control each and every locomotive is the way to go. 
Your article on this subject at your website is excellent.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So for that, depending on the system you use, a MeanWell has served me very well and many others have bought them. I think I have the place I found good prices on my site, J&R electronics if I remember right.

I decided on DCC at the outset, and did not buy anything that I did not need. I did buy a big DC "transformer", the MRC "Power G" for visitors some years later. The huge variety of components available that all work together was one of the deciding features.

Regards, Greg


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

I use two Digitrax ps2012 packs for the entire layout both set at G setting to 23v at 12 amps with no problems for the last 5 years, no motor, sound card, revolution motor control, or QSI card problems. Jack


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

they look nice, $150 each is not too bad. The meanwells don't have meters but are 1/2 to 1/3 the cost.

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

bdp3wsy said:


> I use two Digitrax ps2012 packs for the entire layout ............


I always get extremely annoyed when companies mislead consumers - especially Model Railroad customers most of whom are not exctly electronic wizards.

The Digitrax unit heading is:
*PS2012E 20 Amp Power Supply 13.8-23VDC*


The specification says:
Current Rating: 20 Amp selectable output 13.8, 16 or 23 volts.

The instruction sheet on the first page states:

20 Amp
All Scales
Regulated
Power Supply


It's only on the very last page of the instruction sheet, almost like an afterthought, that Digitrax mentions:


The ‘G’ setting configures the supply to output 23 volts at *12 amps max.*


So the "20 Amp" supply wasn't a 20 Amp supply after all - far from it!


Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And companies that rate their power supplies in volt amps should be shot.

It's very misleading...

Greg - 610 ... getting there


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

It might say that but I have pulled 18+ amps for long periods with no problems and low heat on the packs. Running 3 Aristo mallets, USA ABA f3 lash and a ABBA Aristo FA lash both with coaches with lights on, sound, no smoke on a 1245' out and back main line loop. Jack


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

The second pack runs a 7 track staging yard and is used to power all the South Bend Signals (18 total) on the entire layout (stepped down to 9V feeder. Jack


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Bob, just out of curiosity, what voltage setting did you have to get over 18 amps. This is good information as opposed to manufacturer's ratings, real data.

Greg

oops, it is Bob, right?


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

bdp3wsy said:


> It might say that but I have pulled 18+ amps for long periods with no problems......


If the unit delivered 18+ amps at 23 volts, then to me this says the unit doesn't even meet its own specs.

It's supposed to be current limited with the following parameters:

The ‘G’ setting configures the supply to output 23 volts at 12 amps max.
The ‘HO’ setting configures the supply to output 16 volts at 16 amps max.
The ‘N’ setting configures the supply to output 13.8 volts at 20 amps max.


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

I use the G setting for the main line and the HO for the yard switching. I switch the yard over to G when an engine is pulling out on to the main just so there is no conflict between packs. They have been pretty rock solid over the last 5 years. The yard pack also has a lead to the basement test track for rainy day work, They reside outside all year in Rubbermaid shed were all the engines are stored.


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

Getting to old to carry them in and out all the time. Cars are left on the tracks to be weathered by Mother Nature and only have had one squirrel that for some reason loved to chew a Aristo Gerber Baby Box car. So I leave it on a siding just for him to enjoy......lol


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, so we will assume you were in HO mode when you ran over 18 amps, which is 2 amps more than the rating.

Interpretation: that they are rugged and conservatively rated... got it.

Greg


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