# Cannot drill into Ruby frame.



## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

I am trying to drill into the steel frame of my Accucraft Ruby. I am looking for bits 3/32nd, 1/16th, 1/32, 1/64th that can cut through hard steel. Anyone got any ideas.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

The frame is made of stainless steel, which will dull a standard HSS drill in a heartbeat. Buy carbide bits in the sizes you need, and don't try to drill too fast as the stainless will work-harden. Use cutting oil and use just enough pressure so the drill cuts through. A drill press would also help.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

Can you recrommenda good drill bit in that size that is carbide?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By StevenJ on 17 Oct 2009 10:12 PM 
Can you recrommenda good drill bit in that size that is carbide? 


I am no expert on drill bits by any means, but I really like the bits I have purchased from "Winters Drill Bit City":

http://www.wintersdrillbitcity.com/

The web site is "minimal" --- no catalog or order capability, but it lists their 800 phone number. Tell then what you want to do.

The web site says the bits will drill stainless steel. They are "expensive", but I think they are well worth it. Just be prepared for sticker shock when he quotes a price!

I found these bits at a "tool tent" at the Midwest Old Settler's and Thresher's Reunion several years ago and bought one of the smallest 'sets' as a try out and have since been back to purchase 4 larger sets (3 as gifts to my kids last year) and the "Numbered" drill bit set (just last month).

I do recommend these bits, but a standard disclaimer has to apply... I am not affiliated with the company in any way, just a VERY satisfied customer.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

1/16 = *Rutland Tool 1107 7300*

3/32 = *Rutland Tool 1107 7304*

The two smaller sizes are tougher, but you could try these circuit board drills as they aren't expensive...

1/64 = *Rutland Tool 1045 0101*

1/32 = *Rutland Tool 1045 0102*

Keep in mind that carbide tools are EXTREMELY BRITTLE!! If you try and force them, you'll break them in a heartbeat. This is ESPECIALLY TRUE in these small sizes. You may wish to buy two or three of each size so you'll have a spare.

Another option may be to go with Cobalt drills in these small sizes as they are not quite so brittle. Regardless of material, any drills this small are easily broken if care isn't used. Again, use cutting oil and a drill press. Don't force the drill - allow the bit to cut through the material.

BTW, I know this from firsthand experience as I completely destroyed three Cobalt bits recently trying to drill 300 series stainless. I forced the drill, things got red hot, the stainless work-hardened, and that was the end of that drill bit. It took me three bits to learn my lesson. Drilling stainless requires some experience, so you might want to pick up a scrap of it at onlinemetals.com or someplace and practice with your small drills before actually tackling (and maybe screwing up) your Ruby frame.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 18 Oct 2009 09:22 AM 
....

BTW, I know this from firsthand experience as I completely destroyed three Cobalt bits recently trying to drill 300 series stainless. 

....

Gee whiz Dwight, 300 Stainless?!?!?! It would have hurt less if you would have drilled your own teeth.

Go slow, use oil, let the drill bit do the cutting. Clamp the work piece to the drill press table. Don't try to free hand something like this. Especially with carbide or the bit will break.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight, What is 300 Stainless? Closest Ive heard is 301. I usually use 303 or 304 if I need stainless. 

As for working with stainless, slow speeds and cutting fluid or oil. Dont even try HSS you might as well take that bit before you use it and throw it away.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

Before I start, I greatly appreciate your suggestions on where to go for bits. Out of curiosity, have any of you ever done a frond deck modification to Ruby to add a front pilot? That is what I am doing. Have any of you ever tried rilling into the brass edges around the cylinder heads? Is it safe to drill into the rectangular sides around the cylinder heads or not? I don't think there is any pressure going through there. I don't have a drill press, I was just going to use my dremel which has succesfully drilled through brass already. I realize this is a soft metal, unlike stainless steel. Also where can I get drill or cutting oil? Can anyone post a link to it.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I added a pilot deck and front truck all mounted onto the 2 bolts that hold on the front OEM buffer beam. I soldered all the parts to the OEM bracked the budder bolted onto.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight, What is 300 Stainless? Closest Ive heard is 301. I usually use 303 or 304 if I need stainless.I said 300 *series* stainless 'cause I couldn't remember exactly wich alloy it was off the top of my head.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

out of curiosity, how do hobbyists drill thru those hard stainless steel rails to create rail-joint fasteners?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Cutting Oil 
I got mine at Ace Hdwr. 15 years ago and still have most of the quart left! 
Bits are everywhere; Ace, Home Disapointment, Lowes, HF (but I'd aviod those) etc... 

SE18; The rail ends are already drilled and tapped, if I cut a rail to fit, I'll use a rail clamp. Much easier than making a jig to properly position the holes. 

John


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## Ger  (Jan 13, 2009)

It appears that some are having problems with stainless steets. I have been a home shop machinest for near 40 years. I have made several small steam engines and two 3 1/2 gauge locomotives. Now I am into garden trains. I have never had any problems turning, milling or drilling stainless steel. I do not own a carbide drill bit. The_ Machining Fundamentals _ book states "Stainless steels may be machined using techniques normal for mild steels". The book cautions that feeds must be high enough to insure that the cutting edge gets under the previous cut to avoid work hardening.

I think the problems are with the methods used. I have a emco FB-2 milling and drilling machine. I mounted square bar stock of 303 and 416 SS
in a vise , made a center punch (either use a punch or a center drill to start the hole), and had no problem drilling a hole in either bars.Then I mounted the bars in my bench vise and tried to drill with a hand drill. This was a problem. Possible speed was two slow, not ridged enough, or not enough downward force on the drill. I would think the Dremmel tool would also be a problem.

I am curious why the Ruby has stainless steel frames. Mild steel is the norm in small locomotives. I modified the Roundhouse Lady Anne chassis kit. This is a 1/16" mild steel frame. There was no problem drilling and milling the frames. 

I would recommend to anyone interested in working on the small steam locomotives to invest in a *quality* lathe, drilling & milling machine and related tools. He can look forward to many years of use. My Maximat 7 lathe was purchased in 1970, it is working just as good as new. The only problem today is finding quality machine tools at a low price.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

Just wanted to thank all of you again for the information. In the future, depending on how much more customization I plan on doing, I will look into a drill press and or lathe. Kovacjr, mounting it to the front oem bracket for the buffer bar is not a bad idea unfortunately I already cut that off of my loco so that is no longer an option for myself. Nice work with your Ruby by the way. I hope mine comes out at least half as good as yours.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

From years of installing hardware on commercial doors, we would always run into a situation where we had to drill or cut stainless steel. To drill stainless on the jobsite we used cobolt drill bits. To cut stainless we found that Lennox brand hacksaw blades worked the best and held up the longest.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By StevenJ on 19 Oct 2009 12:03 PM 
Just wanted to thank all of you again for the information. In the future, depending on how much more customization I plan on doing, I will look into a drill press and or lathe. Kovacjr, mounting it to the front oem bracket for the buffer bar is not a bad idea unfortunately I already cut that off of my loco so that is no longer an option for myself. Nice work with your Ruby by the way. I hope mine comes out at least half as good as yours. Hey Steve

I told you a whole bunch of people would pop in tha help you if your posted your Question in the Tool Forum.

There are a Whole Bunch of People here who know a whole bunch of stuff.


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

" Kovacjr, mounting it to the front oem bracket for the buffer bar is not a bad idea unfortunately I already cut that off of my loco so that is no longer an option for myself. Nice work with your Ruby by the way. I hope mine comes out at least half as good as yours." 

Hey Steven, 
I have an unused set of Ruby frames if you want to another route. Send me a PM if you are interested. 
Larry Newman


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By Kovacjr on 18 Oct 2009 11:10 AM 
Dwight, What is 300 Stainless? Closest Ive heard is 301. I usually use 303 or 304 if I need stainless. 

As for working with stainless, slow speeds and cutting fluid or oil. Dont even try HSS you might as well take that bit before you use it and throw it away. 
There's stainless steel, and then there's stainless steel. There's 300 series stainless, and then there's 300 series stainless. My point is that until you specify the exact alloy, these terms are almost meaningless with regard to machinability other than all being nastier than low carbon steel. One quick and easy comparison chart can be found here: http://www.mcmaster.com/#stainless-steel/=45sr8e There is a lot more info on the web about the composition and workability of various stainless alloys.

In general, my machinists don't bat an eye (and keep their quotes low) when I specify 303, will tolerate me when I specify 304 or 316, and ask, "Do really have to?" if I spec 301 or 302.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay Jim, I had to go look up my order history on McMaster - it was 1/8 x 1/2 303 stainless. I had 24 #11 (0.1910) holes to drill. I drilled 20 before ruining the cobalt bit. I then proceeded to ruin two more, one of them by trying to "save" that piece and finish drilling the hole where the stainless had already work hardened. My own stupidity and lack of experience for sure, but that's what happened.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Dwight, 
Too bad you couldn't turn it over and drill from the back, I've saved holes that way... 

John


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The Ruby frame's stainless? No wonder I went through so many bits... 

Anyway, about the front pilot, *click here* to see photos of my front pilot. They're not the greatest, but you get the idea. I just attached a brass extension to the frame forward of the cylinders. It's proven very strong. 

Later, 

K


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Kevin, 

I just looked at your nice site. Re. riveting, I found you can get complete accuracy of pressure when riveting with a drill press by hooking a small fish scale like this one (mine is analogue and has a hook on top as well as below) http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97227 

Just hook the top of the scale to the capstan of the press and pull. I usually do a test run first to see how many pounds of pressure it takes to pull the round bit thru whatever material I'm working, then I do a second test to see how much pressure it takes to get the indent I need. Then I have a range to work with. 

This technique can be used with anything that requires a set amount of pressure.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Too bad you couldn't turn it over and drill from the back, I've saved holes that way... Wish I'd thought to try that. After already drilling 20 holes, I got impatient. When it comes to machining, there's a lot more I don't know than I do know. Unfortunately, learning is often expensive.


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## BarrysBigTrains (Sep 4, 2008)

I use stainless steel sheet sheared into 1/2" strips to be used for four wheel pilot truck arms. You get quite a lot of it from a 4' x 4' sheet.

The owner usually served me, but this day a helper was there. We found the right thickness and I asked for 302, sure.

Got it back to the shop, couldn't drill through it. Found out that I could buy a hand punch to put the 1/8" and 3/16" holes I needed.

Takes a bit of doing, but finally used it all up. Replenished at a new shop and hav e a nice supply of 302, but I am still using the hand punch.

It leaves a very nice hole.

Barry - BBT


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

I CUT THROUGH THE STAINLESS! Didn't even need the rutland bits I ordered! What I did differently was I poured steam oil onto the area where the dremel was going to drill through and it worked! I got all four bolts bolted into the frame now! Thanks for the ideas guys!


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## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

I've cut and drilled and milled a lot of stainless with ordinary HSS cutting tools. It is important to choose the proper speed and provide good lubrication. 

Jack


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