# QSI and USAT again



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

AT the Fall ECLST I finally broke down and bought a USAT S4 in Reading livery. I plan to consist it with an Aristo Rs-3 I repainted to Reading.

I have an extra QSI card, and I was waiting for QSI to release the USAT Plug and Play board. Got tired of waiting



OK so here's the question. I want to leave the Loco as close to stock as possible. I have a bunch of two pin connectors, so it's easy enough to just wire in the track power and motor leads from the loco to the QSI board directly.


Is there a way to do this so I don't have to rewire the lights? I don't think there is--the lights need track power, so track power would have to be wired to the USAT board. And they want a polarity signal to change with direction, so the board needs to see the motor feed as well. That suggests that I can't isolate the decoder.


I'm asking because I want t leave the USAT lco as close to stock as possible



Any suggestions?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Unplug the 2 connectors that go the the track pickups... make a small harness from some new connectors... feed the track pickups to the QSI track inputs. 

Feed the QSI motor output to one of the connectors that goes to the USAT motherboard. 

Now the lights will not go on until you get some voltage, but everything works... 

Should take you about 5 minutes once you have the shell off. 

The only caveat is that you can run over the rated capacity of the QSI... monitor the current drawn, if you use a single USAT loco in very heavy loads you can go over 3 amps. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Please take pictures Mike, as im interested in your conversion as well for one of my GP-38s. thanks


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks greg, I'll try that

I won't have control over the lights that way though, right? Just forward and reverse/on-off? 


I don't have to wire the qsi motor outs to BOTH of the USAT motor connectors?


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm a total dweeb with electronics. I can solder, I've wired up a bunch of locos, but when it comes to electronics I'm your classic liberal arts major. 


Well I went and tried it. Connected the four track power leads to the two track power inputs on the QSI (red to black and back to red). Easy. There's now no power going to the USAT board. So far so good



The USAT board has two connectors which run from each motor to the USAT board. I connected two wires to each of the two track motor output wires on the QSI board. Then I connected one set of leads to the motor leads on the USAT board, and the second set of leads directly to one of the motors. I thought that way the USAT board gets power and polarity info from the QSI motor outs, and one motor gets started, and the second motor gets power directly from the QSI board. 



It sort of works-the lights come on, the loco starts to move. But it never gets moving to cruising speed. Not sure why? I'm running the QSI under DC on a test bench. It may be that I have a defective QSI card--it's producing static and crakle in the speaker. 


The motor leads are connected red t red and black to black, then soldered to the QSI motor outs. Maybe I did that wrong? I did try it the other way, briefly, and got nothing. Pardon a dumb set of questons


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike DO NOT touch the motor leads... 

You are inserting the qsi in series in the track pickup leads... track pickups >>> QSI track inputs... 

QSI motor output goes to the track pickup inputs on the USAT train board... 

So the entire loco is run from the motor output... this is what the first post said... 

So lights will work like track powered loco on DC... 

Greg


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks greg.


Did that this morning, same thing--It runs only slowly and unevenly. It runs one motor slowly, and the second barely at all. I think I have a defective decoder. 


I'm wiring this using the wiring harness from an aristo 75 mhz te--the pins are the same as the QSI board. When I remove the aristo wire harness from the QSI board and plug the aristo shorting plug into the harness, it works just fine. When I plug the decoder back in, same problem. The sound is messed up--full of crackles and drop outs. I tried several resets using the reed switch but no sale 

Somewhere a while back i think one went south on me. I can't remember exactly why, and I tossed it in a box. I'll see if I can send it into QSI for repair. 

Meanwhile the NCE system came with a decoder, but I seem to have misplaced the wiring harnesses...

It seems to me it should have worked the way i was wiring it, no? Your suggestion is better, but it should have worked the way I had it set up: 4 wires from QSI motor outs, one set to to one motor in connector on the USAT board, and one set directly to one motor connector. It did the same thing--ran slowly and fitfully.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You ran the QSI motor output directly into one isolated motor, AND also BACK into the USAT board... possibly shorted the QSI output stage out... 

The idea was to use the whole loco with it's STOCK wiring like the QSI was sourcing track power. 

TRACK >> USAT motherboard

becomes

TRACK >> QSI track inputs >> QSI motor outputs >> USAT track inputs 


Back feeding an output into the USAT board was not a good idea. The USAT connection you used was a MOTOR OUTPUT, not a POWER INPUT. I've not studied doing this, but it could have damaged the QSI output. 

My original post was as clear as I could make it Mike, sorry. I've re-read it several times, it was as simple as I could make it.

My advice is to wire it like I said and try a different QSI, do it EXACTLY like the first post says.... the TWO track INPUTS on the USAT motherboard are identical, so that's why one set of inputs is sufficient. 

You could try it in stages, connect the track pickups to the QSI, nothing else connected except the speaker. See if it powers up. 

Then connect the motor output of the QSI to ONLY ONE of the track power inputs on the usat mother board, all other wiring should be undisturbed in the USAT loco. 

There should be NO connection between the track pickups and the USAT motherboard, both sets of the track pickups need to go to the QSI. That is the kiss of death to a DCC decoder, or really any decoder including the Aristo TE, AirWire, etc. 

Let us know. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. I went back and re-read carefully how you wired it, and I had to stop reading, what you did almost certainly damaged the QSI. You gave the 2 motors in the USAT different power? You almost surely did commit the cardinal sin of providing a path between track pickups and motor outputs.


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Greg. I verified it's wired correctly by putting a different QSI card in--it works fine. The QSI Card I was trying to install was bad already--it had gotten damaged when the steam loco it was in jammed, long story--and it's been sent into QSI for repair. 


NCE Is gong to send me the wiring harness that I lost for the NCE decoder. Meanwhile, I'm trying to wire up an old Phoenix 2k2 card I have around which already has an ALCO soundfile installed on it. 

It's kind of amazing how much easier the QSI cards are to deal with. It's true, they work best with DCC, either on the track or via wireless. But _everything _is so much easier with the QSI cards. 


Now the Phoenix sound files are excellent, as everybody knows. They sound great. But you need to run wires for power. And I can't control volume without installing the little switch. Drill hole, run wires. 



So I install the little switch, ok, and then I remember that I used to get very annoyed at this sound file because it was automated--same startup sound everytime, same shut down, same whistle pattern. There's a way to defeat that? yes--take the volume switch leads out. Install three wires in slots 4, 5, and 6 and short them together, then run a jumper from 11 to 16. Then turn on the power. Ok, oops didn't work, wonder why. Try again--ok, it seems to have worked. 

With QSI, you can control volume with DCC commands--no extra wires, no switch. I can have two volumes if I want, or one volume and mute with on remote key command. In the end I'll get less control for more work. And I won't have the best feature of QSI, which is the way the engine sounds vary under load.


----------



## buckeye (Oct 27, 2009)

I am so pleased other people are finding frustration with the QSI USA train thing . I was told a board would be soon! That was two years ago . There is still a problem with old aristo locos too . When you purchase a loco the wiring type should be on the box and as I use mail order sometimes get sent old stock . STANDARDISATION is the only answer . I feel cheated by QSI and my local shop has stopped selling them and given their equipment away . I championed QSI in parts of the UK and own 20 boards myself half of which are useless as they do not fit my USA locos . Basic standards in track , wheels , buckeyes, and decoder connections must be brought in . If the suppliers want this hobby to grow then cut out incompatability . I have money to spend but will not till they get together , and , I have friends that see my problems and will not start G Scale . Note if you purchased a Sony product 20 years ago you could connect a modern unit to it they are all engineered to connect and work together . Even the couplings dont join Q. E. D


----------



## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Lownote, if you would update your Phoenix sound file, you would find you can control the volume using F7 & F8. This function was added approximately 2 years ago to all of the Phoenix sound files.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Buckeye, just a few questions for clarification: 

The "problem" with old Aristo locos, is because they do not have the socket? That is true, older ones do not have the socket, but you just have to figure out which ones had it. They are pretty old production though. 

The changes to Aristo equipment are most often NOT advertised, you can make your own judgement why it's not forthcoming from Aristo. 

But this is an Aristo problem, just as how older RS3 units are assembled reversed inside so that using the socket is impossible because it interferes with the speaker. 

Why do you feel "cheated" by QSI? They cannot control Aristo, and correct Aristo's mistakes or omissions. 

I do agree the USAT version has been promised many times, but is QSI the only G scale company that has been "late"? I think not. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## buckeye (Oct 27, 2009)

I understand that aristo dont put these details on the box but I cannot unscrew the body in the store to see if I will buy it or not ! Having spent $20,000 two years ago with a few very good suppliers it is not their fault that the locos are old stock but I bet you sure would kick up if you found a car you purchased was an older engined version than the current one . When Q S I brought out there sound and DCC cards I thought they were the greatest thing ever and bought 1 from G Scale Junction . Fantastic the price was sensible Quality superb and plug and play ! I then telephoned Q S I to ask when the U S A trains board would be ready ? They stated October 2008 at the very latest . I then ordered 15 more boards from Charles and have waited ever since . That is being cheated as I demonstrated the superb product to my U K store and he ordered plain sound boards and the computer bits to give customers what they wanted . He has dumped the product range and I feel totally let down . 18 months and still nothing . Now other manufacturers are bringing their prices down but thats about it . I have not spent any money this year because I no longer trust what I am told or being sent . Unless the manufacturers standardise on track standards make a coupling that is universal , I see our friends at Kadee are one jump ahead , and people dont fool me into spending $1300 on an unfulfilled product release . They could have said sometime or never for the product . I now use Massoth decoders to run the locos and the Q S I units for purely sound and my money stays in my pocket . The suppliers want the hobby to grow so do I but get your act together


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree on the frustration of knowing whether there is a socket or not. It's taken a lot of study for me, and asking people with more experience than me. It has caused me to document the differen "versions" of Aristo locos, what features they have, and how to spot the different versions. 

Yes, I will agree (again) that the USAT version has been promised over and over. I have done some prototype testing of the boards, and know what has happened but that "inside" information does not help the fact that we do not have them yet, and I need 20 of them! 

Actually you can run USAT locos from the QSI and do it quite easily, you give up a couple of features, like constant voltage lights, but they are much cheaper than Massoth. The Massoth will not interface to the USAT any easier than any other decoder, including the QSI, so I am waiting also for the USAT plug and play. 

The wise statement I have heard over and over: it will be "real" when it's in my hand. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Does the battery plug on an Aristo locomotive tell you anything about it having the plug and play socket.


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

They still have some locos that have the battery plugs but are not plug and play. Later RJD


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

models that were first introduced after the SD45 have a socket, in the case of one version of the RS3, it was not usable for a QSI. Models that were introduced BEFORE the SD45 may or may not have a socket, it depends on what old stuff was still in dealer stock. 

The plugs were introduced on some models before the socket was implemented.


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Buckeye, Give QSI a break as it's only been about 5 years and 2 distributers since they officially announced back in Spring 2005 that they were getting into the aftermarket and it took QSI another 2-1/2 years to release the Aristo-Craft boards so probably another 18 months and you'll have the USA plug & play product.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, look at how long it took Aristo to make a receiver that fits their OWN socket! ha ha ha!. 

Nothing moves really quickly in this economy, the last 2 years everyone has been almost paranoid to bring out new stuff. 

I waited SIX years for the promised Large Scale Tsunami by SoundTraxx... it NEVER appeared. The new Phoenix's are delayed again, and there's problems with the P5 and the dang things are still around $200.

I can find lots to complain about if I want.

I'd rather look on the bright side, I got my QSI's in all my other stuff, and they are great and about $60 less than the nearest thing, and multiply $60 by 10-15 locos, and you know why I am smiling. 


Regards, Greg


----------



## Ward H (Jan 5, 2008)

I find the USA Trains locos much easier to wire for on board controllers than Aristo non PNP locos. The two pin connectors for motors and track power are easy to buy, easy to use and allow easy hoop up of controllers without destroying any stock wiring. I've installed my favorite on board controller into two S4s, one F3 and one GP7. I opted to install new LED headlights but could have easily wired the motor outputs to the stock main board to preserve existing lighting.


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I waited SIX years for the promised Large Scale Tsunami by SoundTraxx... it NEVER appeared. 

That's a good one as I forgot all about that!!


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, and it was not a major redesign, all it needed was bigger output transistors!! 

They even had a prototype in the Bachmann 3 truck shay (albeit they did not allow it to run on G scale DCC voltages). 

It would have been simple... but for six years I was promised 3 times a year it was coming. 

So, when QSI was the first "affordable" integrated motor/sound decoder with sounds changing by BEMF, I was happy... I can wait a bit longer for the USAT one.. 

Regards, Greg


----------

