# CSI: MyLargeScale ( LGB STAINZ 2020 Spur Gear Destruction)



## navihawk (Jun 10, 2012)

Hi guys,

So I got my train set out last week for Christmas and was running it when all of a sudden it just stopped. It is an LGB 2020 from the 80's and it was pulling 6 LGB passenger cars. The motor was still running when it stopped but it was making a bunch of grinding noises. I instantly knew the Helical Spur Gears were toast! So I disassembled it and the below links to pictures will show you the carnage from inside the motor block. Both gears are totally eaten away.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f133/nutsack60/IMG_0556_zpse73130e3.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f133/nutsack60/IMG_0555_zpsbd5e86f4.jpg

I have two theories as to why this happened but I would love to hear all the experts here weigh in on my thoughts or things I haven't thought about.

1.) I recently lubed this Stainz with gear lube and motor shaft lube from a company whom Greg recommended on his website. It was less than 2 hrs of run time after the lube job until the breakdown. I used the NG jel lubricant from Aero Car Hobby Lubricants. Greg didn't specify if this stuff was suitable for LGB but I figured I would give it a try since he has LGB products. Probably should have consulted with Greg First. So I'm wondering if anyone knows if this stuff is not good for plastic gears? Did this lube attack LGB plastic gears?

2.) My other theory is that a recently purchased LGB powered tender was the cause of the gear destruction. I put the LGB Stainz and the Tender on the tracks and set them about 1 ft apart. I ran them around the tracks at all different speeds and they maintained the same distance apart all the way around the track. So I wasn't concerned that the gearing was different enough to cause a bind in one or both of the locos. However I had asked about the tender in another post and someone mentioned to me that they would never run two un-synced engines together for fear of damaging the drive gears. I did not have the loco and the tender connected VIA the wire that comes with the tender but because they didn't gain or lose distance between them when I first tested them on the tracks, I figured I was safe. Does anyone think this is the cause?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not because I recommended the NG gear gel (and it is plastic compatible), but #2 sounds right.... all you need is for power pickup to fail on one, and the other will push it and strip the gears.

I've had this happen in locos where one power truck develops a pickup problem, and the other truck pushes it and kills the gears, an Aristo RS-3 comes to mind... several times...

Regards, Greg


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## navihawk (Jun 10, 2012)

Another theory I just came up with might about the quartering in my engine. I had problems getting the quartering just right but I finally got it to run. I was under the impression that it either runs correct or it doesn't run correct with respect to the quartering. But from some further reading here it sounds as though if the quartering is not completely correct, it can add some binding to the gears even if it still actually runs.


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

Another theory is excessive wear of the axle housing in the motor block case will allow the axles to wiggle which leads to stripped gears. 

Tommy
Rio Gracie


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

well, im not sure if those gears were worn before the lube. Lots of gear splinters in those pics. It could be coincidental. I cant understand how there would be slivers if the lube melted or softened the gears if non-plastic compatible. 

Was the loco running smoothly and without a hitch? The slivers tend to make me think pehaps the loco was out of quarter, and running very tightly , ie one gear against the other, to result in that much 'cutting'. Was there unusual need for higher throttle or more amps being used. this would tend to support the above. Quartering is actually critical for smooth running and low wear and amp draw. I have often eyeballed the drivers to be in the exact same position, re-assembled, and found a tiny hitch, and had to re-do the entire thing only to move one axel ONE tooth. It does make a difference.

if, otoh, it was running smoothly , 

The wear pattern is familiar to me, from a second hand stainz I purchased on ebay. 

That wear, imho, indicates heavy hauling, which a stainz will do no problem. The wear is a groove in center of the gear, from the worm. 

Unless you _know _that that the gears were flat and unworn pre-lube, that looks like lots of grind and wear due to the loco having a load, or being badly out of quarter, or, if not, running a long time. Six coaches might be such a load, depending on radius and grade, and/or , if they were weighted or had extra rolling resistance, such as electric contacts. Over the course of 20-30 years, yup! and, on mine, the first symptoms was indeed slipage and going out of quarter. I have experienced this on a couple of older locos. 

Something you should also be aware of, is that it is not unusual for the holes in the gear box, upon which the axels rest, to also wear, into a slight elliptical. This results in slippage and misalignment as well. The fix, is, either a new gear box, or, some more talented and resourceful than I, use brass or bronze bushings to correct the hole.

I suspect, it was out of quarter, and, if so, new axels alone might be all you need.

Hope this helps. I would be inclined to carefully examine the gear box holes for the axels before buying new axels, as, I know from first hand experience new axels WILL NOT correct the problem IF the gear box holes are also worn. Of this I can assure you. In which case, it may be more economical to buy and entire new gear box and drive assembly, or, possibly a less loved stainz.

if the plastic is malleable, then it would indeed seem to be the lube.

the solution is new parts, or buy a nice stainz off ebay and use it to fix up yours. make sure you get the same era, as the newer stainz (allen style plastic gears) are not drop in replacement for the older stainz.


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## navihawk (Jun 10, 2012)

tmejia said:


> Another theory is excessive wear of the axle housing in the motor block case will allow the axles to wiggle which leads to stripped gears.
> 
> Tommy
> Rio Gracie


I just checked the motor block for axle housing wear and do not find any excessive or obvious signs of wear. They look good to me. I rocked them back and forth with no movement. Thank you for this as it narrows my search for the root problem.


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## navihawk (Jun 10, 2012)

stevedenver said:


> well, im not sure if those gears were worn before the lube. Lots of gear splinters in those pics. It could be coincidental. I cant understand how there would be slivers if the lube melted or softened the gears if non-plastic compatible.


The gears were not worn at all before the lube. I remember when I opened it up after years of punishment from my brother and I hauling rocks and sticksI expected the gears to be ready to fail but surprisingly they were in great shape. 



stevedenver said:


> Was the loco running smoothly and without a hitch?


Yes it was running perfectly smooth and would actually run very very slowly which is something it hadn't done before the lube. I used to have to give it 1/4 throttle to get it moving. 



stevedenver said:


> The slivers tend to make me think pehaps the loco was out of quarter, and running very tightly , ie one gear against the other, to result in that much 'cutting'. Was there unusual need for higher throttle or more amps being used. this would tend to support the above.


No, as stated above I didn't notice any unusual binding or slowness that required a lot of extra throttle. But I too am thinking I had it out of quarter somewhat.



stevedenver said:


> Quartering is actually critical for smooth running and low wear and amp draw. I have often eyeballed the drivers to be in the exact same position, re-assembled, and found a tiny hitch, and had to re-do the entire thing only to move one axel ONE tooth. It does make a difference.
> 
> if, otoh, it was running smoothly ,
> 
> The wear pattern is familiar to me, from a second hand stainz I purchased on ebay.





stevedenver said:


> That wear, imho, indicates heavy hauling, which a stainz will do no problem. The wear is a groove in center of the gear, from the worm.


I have been pulling way more than just these 6 cars my whole life with these LGB stainz locos. I think it has regularly pulled an average of 10 cars during its life. With rocks and anything else that was laying around the house.



stevedenver said:


> Unless you _know _that that the gears were flat and unworn pre-lube, that looks like lots of grind and wear due to the loco having a load, or being badly out of quarter, or, if not, running a long time. Six coaches might be such a load, depending on radius and grade, and/or , if they were weighted or had extra rolling resistance, such as electric contacts. Over the course of 20-30 years, yup! and, on mine, the first symptoms was indeed slipage and going out of quarter. I have experienced this on a couple of older locos.


The radius I was running was LGB 1600's and it was setup on my flat hardwood floor. All of the cars had plastic wheels except for one with electrical pickups.




stevedenver said:


> I suspect, it was out of quarter, and, if so, new axels alone might be all you need.
> 
> Hope this helps. I would be inclined to carefully examine the gear box holes for the axels before buying new axels, as, I know from first hand experience new axels WILL NOT correct the problem IF the gear box holes are also worn. Of this I can assure you. In which case, it may be more economical to buy and entire new gear box and drive assembly, or, possibly a less loved stainz.
> 
> ...


Mr. Denver thank you for all of this great info. I am looking at buying new axles with gears installed from Train-Li. I have dealt with all about LGB in the past too so I could look there as well. 

I am just going to replace the gears/axle assy and not run the tender with the loco unless the power pickups are connected.

However does anyone have a tutorial on quartering an LGB stainz?


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't have a tutorial, but if you need some reference pictures, I can do that. My is running great and pulling the Circus train right now.

Here is my post on fixing a Clamshell motor block Stainz.

http://forums.mylargescale.com/11-public-forum/27870-lgb-stainz-motor-block-repair.html

Tommy
Rio Gracie


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

navihawk said:


> I am just going to replace the gears/axle assy and not run the tender with the loco unless the power pickups are connected.
> 
> However does anyone have a tutorial on quartering an LGB stainz?


you know, I would really be dumbfounded if an lgb tender caused that gear wear. 

I run tenders all the time, with stainz and 2015/2017 locos , 
and so long as they run about the same speed as the loco, which they all have always done, there's no issue. 

More to the point, one would absolutely hear one 'fighting' the other, ie either louder motor and or gears if they were hugely out of sync. Finally , as tenders have no traction tires, they would likely slip before causing that type of gear damage. Unless of course lots of extra weight was added.

With respect, is it possible the gears were grooved with wear and you might not have noticed due to the light coloring? What you say about hauling rocks and 10 cars makes me think that little loco was doing some hard work, and that was most likely the cause of the wear.


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## navihawk (Jun 10, 2012)

stevedenver said:


> you know, I would really be dumbfounded if an lgb tender caused that gear wear.
> 
> I run tenders all the time, with stainz and 2015/2017 locos ,
> and so long as they run about the same speed as the loco, which they all have always done, there's no issue.
> ...


I agree with this statement but I just want to rule out all the possibilities before I ruin another set of gears.



stevedenver said:


> With respect, is it possible the gears were grooved with wear and you might not have noticed due to the light coloring? What you say about hauling rocks and 10 cars makes me think that little loco was doing some hard work, and that was most likely the cause of the wear.


 All of this hauling has been done since 1986 and when I lubed it for the first time a few hours of run time ago, I didn't notice any wear, however I could have missed it. Still I feel that the quartering was my issue and when the extra weight of the cars was added in conjunction with the possible mis quartered alignment it ripped them all apart. 

The more I read through your other post I'm convinced this was my issue.

Thanks again for all of this detail.

Are these the axle/gear assy's I need? Front and back from allaboutLGB? Product number: 88330340
http://allaboutlgb.com/lgb train repair parts.html


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

When troubleshooting, I strongly believe the last thing touched is usually the first thing to break!!
So, I believe the quartering can be the cause as even being off 1 gear tooth can cause a plastic gear failure esp with the older Stainz due to it having metal side rods.
Also note that the side rods will create extra wear on the mounting points on the axles when not quartered properly.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I believe the Stainz, along with other LGB engines with side rods have some play built into the rods. If it was out of quarter, you should have seen a "lope" to the engine as it ran. I am also inclined to suspect it was just high hours of use. I myself prefer to stick with LGB's own gear lubrication as I have for over 20 years. I typicaly haul decent loads with my Stainz, to the point she will slip out in the "S" curve on my outdoor layout. I clean and relubricate each spring and have seen very little in the way of gear wear. Now the skates are another story. My 2095 Austrian BoBo diesel, which is twin motored, doesnt have the bogies tied together electricaly from the factory. Only one has a traction tire. If one stalls, the other just sits and spins. She will do this if the points are dead on one of the turnouts on the outdoors layout. If it was my engine, I would clean out the aftermarket lubrication, replace the gears, inspect the motor for any bearing wear, then regrease with LGB factory lubrication and reassemble. The factory lube was good for all those years, so I put more faith in what LGB used over an aftermarket brand. Mike


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I've seen similar wear on LGB's moguls when the drivers are out of alignment. ("Out of quarter" isn't accurate, as the driving wheels themselves are keyed to the axles at 90 degrees.) "Out of alignment" means in this case the two axles were assembled into the motor such that the drivers aren't exactly in the same rotational position relative to each other. That is, if the kingpin on one driver is straight up at 12-o'clock, the other one might be at 12:03 or something like that. This is caused by the gears meshing with the teeth on the worm, and most often happens if you assemble things before you put the siderods back on. If you place one axle in, it the teeth may go to one side of the worm on one axle, but on the other side on the other axle. Where there are no siderods, this isn't remotely an issue. But when there are siderods, things can bind pretty quickly.

While the moguls use an idler gear between the motor and drive axle, I've assembled them before being off by one tooth, and it doesn't take long to chew up the idler gears on those. Unless you really keep a sharp eye out and run at very slow speeds, you may not notice any kind of binding. 

When you re-assemble the loco, spin the drivers (since LGB's drives allow you to) so that one side is at the "end" of the throw of the main rod, and the other is in the middle. Feel the rods to see if they're loose. Look carefully at the rods and spokes on the drivers to make sure the siderods are parallel to the rails, and make sure the spokes on both sets of drivers are all in the same position. It's a little harder to check this, but if you've got a protractor or something that you can use to gauge one spoke, compare it to the same spoke on the next set of drivers. 

You can also slightly enlarge the holes in the siderods, since they're purely cosmetic. That gives the rods just a little more play, so that--even if they are aligned correctly--the chances of a repeat are greatly reduced. 

Another "fix" that I've done on brass worms is to take some sandpaper and knock off the sharp edge of the gear. I'll sometimes do this by running the motor while holding the gear against the sandpaper, and sometimes I'll go in with a file and take the edge off. A very slight "rounded edge" won't affect the way the gear meshes at all, but it does reduce the brass gear's ability to chew into the softer plastic gear since there no sharp edge to worry about. 

Good luck. 

Later,

K


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## Mike Flea (Apr 8, 2014)

It shouldn't be a problem with the Stainz, but I had a similar problem with my LGB Porter with the helical gears stripping. When I went to order a new set of drive wheels, it said "for use with German made Porter". When I called the distributor to ask what the difference was, he couldn't tell me so I ordered them anyways. My LGB Porter was made in Korea. The point I'm getting to is count the # of teeth on the gear. The gears I received have a different gear count than the ones that were original, so now I'm looking for a different set of helical gears for the motor shafts.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Train-Li has some porter metal gears for LGB. Need to know the number of teeth as there are 2 types of gears for the porter. The one with less teeth is plastic. The metal ones with more teeth are the ones for the newer porters.


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## navihawk (Jun 10, 2012)

UPDATE:

I ordered the 34 teeth replacement gears and I have noticed some off things about them. 
1.) Both gears are missing an axle shaft support journal on each side of the gear. 

2.) From what I am measuring with a vernier caliper, the axle shaft support journals and width of the gear teeth diameter are not the same as original. 

3.) I am attaching a word doc with drawings and a picture of the two gears side by side. 

4.) I centered the new gears on the old axles and installed them in my loco but due to the shorter dimension shoulder and lack of the opposite shoulder on the gear, they fall off of the worm from the motor.

5.) I assume that once I screwed the wheels back on the gear wouldn't fall off but still there is a quite a bit of play due to the shorter axle shaft support journal on the gear. 

6.) Are you supposed to shim these and rig up a support on the opposite side? 

Link to word Doc file for viewing gear dimensions

http://rg.to/file/1a567e6c0a9464325c879c66bd208e73/Gear_tooth_CSI_docx.docx.html


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

the old parts for the old drive are not the same for newer drives. old units with screw on wheels have different parts than the fixed wheel sets. 

the oldest version parts are difficult to come by. I guess you can try to see how things fit.


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## navihawk (Jun 10, 2012)

stevedenver said:


> the old parts for the old drive are not the same for newer drives. old units with screw on wheels have different parts than the fixed wheel sets.
> 
> the oldest version parts are difficult to come by. I guess you can try to see how things fit.


So you suspect these are not the correct parts? I bought them from all about LGB. I even spoke to the owner on the phone and told him that my stainz was made in the mid 80's. How does one differentiate between the parts for each model? I also told him that the sticker on the split case said 2020.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

I don't know. I

I responded based upon your measurements and comments.
I would certainly do you best to install them and give them a go before trying plan B.

I would then suspect that if the seller was knowledgeable, you should have received the correct parts.
I would suspect that the gear is the same, as changing that would interfere with LGBs support plan from the old days, ie things were retro compatible . On the basic locos, I believe the drive was identical in many models.

It is possible that you may have not fully diagnosed the problem(s) if these new gears don't do the trick. I have done the same. (That is why I mentioned the gear box /axle holes, which in my case, despite new gears, worm and gear fit was still off and slipping. Obviously if your install and things work, you're fine.)

I have repaired more than a few LGB locos, and consider myself competent.
That being the case, (at least from my little keyhole view LOL). What I have learned is that sometimes troubleshooting takes a lot of time and can be frustrating as well as expensive. 

I only learned this by having a very similar gear issue with my old spremberger 0-4-0 and running into the exact same problems with parts and diagnosis.

I eventually opted to save money and brain damage by buying a complete new ear box with wheels gears motor skates etc.

install them, align the wheels (rods), and let us know how it runs.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Sometimes the motor bearing wears and the motor shaft does not fully seat in the axle gear.
And the older stainz with the motor with black and red ends for the motor brushes need a small ball bearing in the motor block to prevent the motor shaft from moving back and forth. Newer motors do not need the ball bearing.


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## navihawk (Jun 10, 2012)

UPDATE:

I put the new gears back in my LGB Stainz engine, re-quartered the wheels and connecting rods and checked the amp draw. I got 0.25 amps at low speed and 0.36 at full speed. 

I have yet to run it on the tracks yet or pull anything but so far it all went back together and seems to be running in good condition at my desk. I will update this thread again later as to the longevity of these new gears and to inform on if it ran successfully on the tracks.


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