# Help for the helpless



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

This may be old news to some of you, but I just discovered this wonderful little tool. Do you sometimes get annoyed at the simple questions that people ask? 60 seconds on Google would probably answer their question, but they would rather have you do the legwork for them. e.g. "When does daylight savings time end this year?" Click Here


Give this a try next time ... Let me Google that for you


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Let me stop what I was doing so I can help you....?


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Please don't take this as me thinking MLS folks are asking stupid questions about garden railroading. I just thought it was a fun link.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Del, I just tried it and got a link here at MLS 

More than felt lucky, I found a current thread that is on topic! 

You're right it wasn't that hard! 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

At the risk of sounding cranky, I've found this dozens of times. I can't help but think that it's more typing to ask the question on the forum, than use Google. 

Another tip for people with questions, put all the information in your question. 

change "I'm using a TE and my loco won't move" 

to: 

"I have a 27 MHz trackside TE and I have a Lionel transformer and have never checked my track for voltage and the lights go on but the motor just buzzes" 

The best advice is if you are looking for help, give the "helping hands guys" a head start. 

OK, sorry to be crabby... but there was something in a book about someone helping people who help themselves? 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. a funny Google story: I have posted some things on my site I was trying to figure out... Googled the subject, and my site came up first... ouch...


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I have goodled many time and have come up with 50 million pages of useless information which dont apply to what I want to know. Then what eirks me is when you go to a website that you think will have the answere and it is a sponsored site that leads to 50 other dead ends. I come here becasue I can get the infomation which is more accurate and besides we help each out.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

*Well said John J!*


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Think that's annoying? Try Microsoft's BING. I often look for technical information, but somehow BING thinks I'm an investor.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll say one thing JJ, that there are ways to narrow your search, normally by asking a more specific question. I start with a very specific set of words, I actually phrase it just like asking a question. 

And please take it the right way: "helping each other out" is no fun when it turns out to be one-sided most times... that's kind of the point. 

Regards, Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Greg, 
Many thanks for the help you have given. 

I think, for you, it will always be one sided, you have more knowledge than those asking. 

There are ways to phrase the questions that will give better results... one fellow wanted X for G Gauge... I retyped it to Garden Trains X and got his answer. After he failed with his word order. 
I find it helps to use an Outline form; 
1. G Scale. A. X 1.metal ...=... G Scale Wheels Metal When written as a question I find too many keywords are taken out of context.... 

John 

I get irked most when after giving a lengthy answer they tell you 'not that way', because..... Why the heck the restrictions weren't given first I dunno. (This is to echo Greg's comment) 


A little thanks at the end goes a long way.


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 09 Sep 2009 06:08 AM 
I have goodled many time and have come up with 50 million pages of useless information which dont apply to what I want to know. Then what eirks me is when you go to a website that you think will have the answere and it is a sponsored site that leads to 50 other dead ends. I come here becasue I can get the infomation which is more accurate and besides we help each out. I'm in the same boat as J.J. sometimes.. I ask something about some item in sacramento and it comes up the sac-ra-tomato. and want to go to a sight to sell me some tomato sauce. Being one of Campbells soup plants is located here.. Sorry had to put that in there.. laf... but it true. 
Get better advice here on MLS.. and quicker..


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

While I understand the frustration sometimes felt by hearing the same questions over and over again here's my rules.. 

1) If a question irritates you don't answer it. Better to leave it alone than to vent on some poor soul who just wants an answer. 

2) A much repeated question with a much repeated answer may be old hat to you but probably not so to a newbie. He doesn't need a lecture on how inconsiderate he is to ask the question instead of finding the answer for himself. That can come later after he's established a base of information and knowledge upon which to build. Too, one doesn't always know the questions to ask let alone how to search for answers. 

3) Many questioners are looking for more than a textbook answer. They are looking also for reassurance and maybe a bit of personal advice on where to start. 

4) Never try to "sell" a certain way to do something. Rather simply give examples of your own experiences and when applicable why you chose as you did. Always leave the door open for someone to choose another way of doing things that may differ greatly from your own preferences. 

5) Don't be upset when someone asks you many questions and then doesn't follow your advice on anything. It's his choice(s) to make. All you can do is to give him the benefit of your own experience and discuss options for him. There is always more than one way to do things. If giving options or suggestions instead of the "correct way" bothers you then don't give advice. 

6) Treat everyone with respect and remember that he is just as good as you are. Just because you may have a bit more knowledge on a particular subject than him doesn't change that. 

7) Don't apply rules for others to follow. Instead try and meet everyone on an even plane. If someone constantly irritates you (short of personal attacks) simply leave him alone as long as he leaves you alone. You don't have to respond to anyone you don't choose to. 

8) Remember that these forums are as much about fellowship and making friends as about trains. Often as when having a casual conversation with friends subjects tend to wander. The last thing anyone needs is one of those "let's keep focused people" types telling us what we can say (within the realm of common sense). This isn't a professional or business meeting and no one is being paid to participate. 

9) Enjoy what you do. Have fun and help others whenever you can.


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## dltrains (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard, nice set of guidelines.I say that as for the most part those are what I follow. 
I've been guilty of asking a question or two that I know has been answered before, but I just can't seem to put my hand on the answer through search. I get frustrated and ask to be told look it up.When I have responded to someone elses question and I'm not sure of the best answer I've recommended the search function,as frustrating as that can be. 

Seems like at times it's simply theday of the week you ask, as some will answer a question one day send another person to search the next day and in the midst of the forum go on and answer the question.Almost seems like a who's who. 

Friendship and comraderie are the driving force of this and many other forums. We share a common interest and we're all trying to do the best we can to achieve our goals,and sometimes this means asking the same question over and over.And yes sometimes just to have someone at our back so we can do something we haven't done before. 

Dave


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard,

Excellent guidelines. These should be posted as a "sticky" as a guide for everyone-both for the "questioner" and the "answeree".


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Richard Smith on 09 Sep 2009 03:30 PM 
While I understand the frustration sometimes felt by hearing the same questions over and over again here's my rules.. 

1) If a question irritates you don't answer it. Better to leave it alone than to vent on some poor soul who just wants an answer. 

2) A much repeated question with a much repeated answer may be old hat to you but probably not so to a newbie. He doesn't need a lecture on how inconsiderate he is to ask the question instead of finding the answer for himself. That can come later after he's established a base of information and knowledge upon which to build. Too, one doesn't always know the questions to ask let alone how to search for answers. 

3) Many questioners are looking for more than a textbook answer. They are looking also for reassurance and maybe a bit of personal advice on where to start. 

4) Never try to "sell" a certain way to do something. Rather simply give examples of your own experiences and when applicable why you chose as you did. Always leave the door open for someone to choose another way of doing things that may differ greatly from your own preferences. 

5) Don't be upset when someone asks you many questions and then doesn't follow your advice on anything. It's his choice(s) to make. All you can do is to give him the benefit of your own experience and discuss options for him. There is always more than one way to do things. If giving options or suggestions instead of the "correct way" bothers you then don't give advice. 

6) Treat everyone with respect and remember that he is just as good as you are. Just because you may have a bit more knowledge on a particular subject than him doesn't change that. 

7) Don't apply rules for others to follow. Instead try and meet everyone on an even plane. If someone constantly irritates you (short of personal attacks) simply leave him alone as long as he leaves you alone. You don't have to respond to anyone you don't choose to. 

8) Remember that these forums are as much about fellowship and making friends as about trains. Often as when having a casual conversation with friends subjects tend to wander. The last thing anyone needs is one of those "let's keep focused people" types telling us what we can say (within the realm of common sense). This isn't a professional or business meeting and no one is being paid to participate. 

9) Enjoy what you do. Have fun and help others whenever you can. 

Sorry to quote the whole thing... but that is worthy of being quoted often.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Very nicely put Richard.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 09 Sep 2009 05:35 PM 
Posted By Richard Smith on 09 Sep 2009 03:30 PM 
While I understand the frustration sometimes felt by hearing the same questions over and over again here's my rules.. 

1) If a question irritates you don't answer it. Better to leave it alone than to vent on some poor soul who just wants an answer. 

2) A much repeated question with a much repeated answer may be old hat to you but probably not so to a newbie. He doesn't need a lecture on how inconsiderate he is to ask the question instead of finding the answer for himself. That can come later after he's established a base of information and knowledge upon which to build. Too, one doesn't always know the questions to ask let alone how to search for answers. 

3) Many questioners are looking for more than a textbook answer. They are looking also for reassurance and maybe a bit of personal advice on where to start. 

4) Never try to "sell" a certain way to do something. Rather simply give examples of your own experiences and when applicable why you chose as you did. Always leave the door open for someone to choose another way of doing things that may differ greatly from your own preferences. 

5) Don't be upset when someone asks you many questions and then doesn't follow your advice on anything. It's his choice(s) to make. All you can do is to give him the benefit of your own experience and discuss options for him. There is always more than one way to do things. If giving options or suggestions instead of the "correct way" bothers you then don't give advice. 

6) Treat everyone with respect and remember that he is just as good as you are. Just because you may have a bit more knowledge on a particular subject than him doesn't change that. 

7) Don't apply rules for others to follow. Instead try and meet everyone on an even plane. If someone constantly irritates you (short of personal attacks) simply leave him alone as long as he leaves you alone. You don't have to respond to anyone you don't choose to. 

8) Remember that these forums are as much about fellowship and making friends as about trains. Often as when having a casual conversation with friends subjects tend to wander. The last thing anyone needs is one of those "let's keep focused people" types telling us what we can say (within the realm of common sense). This isn't a professional or business meeting and no one is being paid to participate. 

9) Enjoy what you do. Have fun and help others whenever you can. 

Sorry to quote the whole thing... but that is worthy of being quoted often. 

What Semper said.

The biggest annoyance I have is someone telling me a thread I'm participating in is wandering. Unless they're a moderator, what business is it of theirs? Have they paid my dues? I've learned a lot from 'wandering' and gotten some good belly laughs when the guys roll out the wit: someone posted "I was so poor, all I had as a kid was two lines in the dirt and stick on a string." (for a train.) To which someone promptly replied: "You had a string? Wow!" I smile whenever I think of that exchange.

Les


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Les, it's a forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion. If your opinion is that a thread wandering is fine, so be it... (although it's considered bad form in most forums)... but I am likewise entitled to my opinion, and I can give you several reasons why it's not "cool".... the biggest reason is that the forum is like a giant wikipedia of information for everyone. 

The search function lets you TRY to find information, but when a thread goes sideways, then it gets right back to what JJ complained about, google something and get 50,000 "answers" that are not helpful. (because your search finds threads that have gone sideways) 

Thinking of others and keeping an interesting, technical thread on topic helps everyone, the people reading it now, and the people reading it in the future. This is not putting down humor, which I personally think is useful in all threads. 

There are good reasons to follow the common "rules" applied to the majority of internet forums. 

So, again, it is a forum, where everyone has a voice. 

Regards, Greg


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Sep 2009 10:54 PM 
p.s. a funny Google story: I have posted some things on my site I was trying to figure out... Googled the subject, and my site came up first... ouch... 
That's like when the instructions or answer to a question say "Contact your System Administrator for assistance." I AM the System Administrator!!

Or when I call the helpdesk because my email doesn't work and get a recording that says "Please send an email about your problem to support at soandso.com." And then it doesn't take a message.

You have to laugh or you go insane!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I actually took over an IT department, where a person called the IT department, and said their email was not working, and the IT person said they needed to send an email about the problem. He was dead serious. The IT guy was not joking. 

The person making the request was in the engineering department. Up until that point the accounting department ran the IT department... from that day forward, Engineering took control, and had a real heart to heart talk about attitude... It got fixed.... quick... 

Regards, Greg


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Just think! Before there was Google, there were books. Encyclopedia for example, remember them? Ever heard of them, you younger folks? We actually had to open one and look in the index for a topic, then read it, oh my god, the pain of it.







Or, we had to go to a library (real legwork) and be around other people, uhhhhh!!!!







And to do all of this we didn't have to push any buttons, or rely on electricity that may not always be there.







What would one do if one actually had to read a map?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Les, I'm going to miss that pic of a derail! lol 

Common sense can go along way. 
Simple guides for thread control; 
1. Technical; the straight and narrow, sidebars allowed, but identified and perhaps moved. 
2. General info... hang on for the ride... lol 

People will take a suggestion better than a direction... 
Regarding #5 of Richards post... We will still root (to ourselves) for the best answer to be chosen! lol The Peanut Gallery lives! 

I had a reply from Tech to an email... No sir, if you can't make a phone call your DSL won't work.....I e-mailed him back that it did seem to work.... Turns out my obsolete modem was shot! 

John


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

"Strength is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours."[/i]


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 09 Sep 2009 08:51 PM 
"Strength is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours."[/i]









Unfortunately, it is all too often the other way around... 

" WE wish to improve YOU. We will add OUR biological and technological distinctiveness to YOUR own."


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Gregg, comments below after /// ...

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Sep 2009 07:33 PM 
Les, it's a forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

/// Yes.... (_waiting_)

If your opinion is that a thread wandering is fine, so be it...

/// _disingenuous fog for the following...._


(although it's considered bad form in most forums)... but I am likewise entitled to my opinion, and I can give you several reasons why it's not "cool".... the biggest reason is that the forum is like a giant wikipedia of information for everyone. 

/// Punchline: _Wandering is considered uncouth in 'most'...._


The search function lets you TRY to find information, but when a thread goes sideways, then it gets right back to what JJ complained about, google something and get 50,000 "answers" that are not helpful. (because your search finds threads that have gone sideways) 

/// _A minor mixing of subjects, Google, John's post, and my opinion, but heck, who's picking?_

Thinking of others and keeping an interesting, technical thread on topic helps everyone, the people reading it now, and the people reading it in the future. This is not putting down humor, which I personally think is useful in all threads. 

/// _Let us (and you, in particular,) always remember to be careful to keep other's desires ahead of your own or...._

There are good reasons to follow the common "rules" applied to the majority of internet forums. 

/// _Another appeal to higher authority...._

So, again, it is a forum, where everyone has a voice. 

/// _Which logically negates the gist of the poster's position__.... save for the 'poor manners'._ 


Regards, Greg 

/// Gregg, is it as hot an humid where you are as it is here? Gosh, I only stated an opinion. I meant precisely what I said and won't repeat it again save in condensed form: a moderator can admonish me about wandering and that's his right. Another person doing so is perceived by me to be telling me what I can't do in an area where I've paid my dues to be.

Perhaps you've read certain threads I've started (usually in 'Tools') and someone has jumped in, the thread begins to weave another pattern, perhaps in the direction of uncovering unknown facts, then the guy jumps back in and apologizes for hijacking my thread. I invariably reply that it isn't 'my' thread and I don't care. And I don't.

The observation has often been made that threads 'evolve' along natural lines; I find this to be the case, usually unless humor crops up. For an unauthorized member to request the thread 'shape up' is not warranted, save in the thin instance that he considers the thread 'his', since he's the author. 

Many have remarked that this is a friendly forum. It is so, I think, because most of the members make a conscious effort to keep it friendly. Regimentation of the type you appear to like will tend to stifle that atmosphere.

Of all the possible LS forums out there, this is the only one that has gotten my money, and it isn't just because all the best help is to be found here. The kidding/humor/fraternity is here but exists in short bursts so business can be conducted.

Some lightweight diversionary 'slack in the line' or relevant digressions should never have to be defended against usurpation by the unauthorized.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 09 Sep 2009 08:51 PM 
"Strength is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours."[/i]
















Be my guest. You better have lotsa penicillin, though.









Ol' Vulp


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And I will defend your right to your opinion Les and I will respect you opinion even if I don't agree with it.... and mine is likewise an opinion... hopefully I can enjoy some reciprocity 

I would not term the references I made an appeal to a higher authority, just a statement of what I have found. I am a moderator or owner of about 7 forums. I have legitimate and long term experience with forums. Should this forum be a clone of the "average" Internet forum? Who knows. 

What I do know is rules/guidelines that make a forum better. I will stress again, with all the information here, it is like a giant database... and keeping informational posts "true" makes searches for information, by newbies and by regulars better/easier/functional. 

In my opinion, that fact alone is important enough for me to try to follow that advice. 

Regards, Greg


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 09 Sep 2009 07:55 AM 
Think that's annoying? Try Microsoft's BING. I often look for technical information, but somehow BING thinks I'm an investor. 

I think letting Microsoft (Bing) making decisions for me is ... is ... is unpronounceable. 

Are you sure? 
(Click OK)


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay...."Let's get focused people!"  hehe! 

No one has thanked Del for the cute link. _ Everyone_ has wandered off subject. Gad! 

so....*Hey, neat link Del. Thanks much! * There, I hope you've all learned a lesson here and it really was a neat link.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks Richard. I thought is was fun. Didn't mean to insult anyone or start anything.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

As I was reading this interesting thread, I had a thought come to mind: has anyone else noticed there were some interesting hairstyles to come _out_ of the 1970s? 

In this era, the Mullet was starting out (credit to Ziggy Stardust?) with the "Natural Blowdry" and the Shag being quite popular. Two more cuts we could include are the Disco Wedge and the Afro. All of these excluding maybe the disco (limited) come in and out of mainstream fashion from time to time to this day. 

I was also thinking that the Page Boy was common for kids, both boys and girls. 

Thanks for the DLS link also. Now I know what day to sit and look at the atomic clock and watch it jump!


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 10 Sep 2009 08:37 PM 
... Thanks for the DLS link also. Now I know what day to sit and look at the atomic clock and watch it jump! 

Funny you should mention that. I once worked for the National Bureau of Standardsat the WWV/WWVB radio station in Ft. Collins. I had the privilege of inserting a "leap second" into the year (??? 1972 ???). Hams and other "time nerds" around the world were just waiting for it!!


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Del, you would be a hero of my father for your efforts! He still sets (or maybe did, as we got him an atomic clock) his watch to WWVB......to the second.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Del,

Nothing's been started so far as I'm concerned. I get a mild kick outta giving Greg a needle job on occasion. And your post was good.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Garrett,

Fascinating. Do you have any pics of these hairstyles? I suppose I _could _Google 'em ... but have you noticed how hard it is to find information that way? Perhaps it's just me. Someone should post about that problem, huh, maybe?









Ol' Vulp


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

I think that the #1 rule for the hobby -- as well as for this forum -- is don't tell the other kids what toys they should play with or how they have to play with them, short of pointing out particularly destructive behavior (hitting me in the head with your Aster, running your boiler dry, or using motor oil in the lubricator). 

It is hard for persons at different points along the spectrum of experience to agree upon what is a reasonable question, and even if it is something that "all right thinking people know," that doesn't mean a prospect isn't waiting to be converted. Patience, please. Dumb as I am, it could well be me. 

When I first got on the internet, 10 or 12 years ago, I ran a search for "large scale model trains." The #1 reply was about "models" with large bosoms that like to pull trains. I guess this is like the videos of the oriental guy pulling a bus with his teeth? Reminiscent of the translation computer, that turned "Out of sight, out of mind" into "blind and insane." Some supervision required. 

Regards, Mike


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 11 Sep 2009 07:31 AM 
Garrett,

Fascinating. Do you have any pics of these hairstyles? I suppose I _could _Google 'em ... but have you noticed how hard it is to find information that way? Perhaps it's just me. Someone should post about that problem, huh, maybe?









Ol' Vulp
Les, I would love to give you some guidance on some photos, and I could post the link of Google Images search for "1970s hair styles", but I am now working on the link between the High Top Fade and mid 1980s to 1990s TV. I have managed to find a brief overlap of the hairstyle on both the first season of Fresh Prince of Bel Air and fourth through seventh seasons on The Cosby Show.

.....and I am willing to bet that without the interenet, I could not have made this very important discovery.


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