# Free float in gravel or ladder?



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm getting ready to start the track prep and planned to just let the track float on gravel. But I've been watching all these ladders being done then back filled with dirt, etc. I have about a foot of gravel/dirt to fill in. The ground is very hard pack calachi and/or rock mixed in so I'm afraid I may have issues getting the center poles in a lot of places without drilling. Not sure if a foot of new install gravel and or dirt is enough to really make it stable for all the extra time, effort and expense. What I was planning to do is have gravel (1" rough used for septic drain fields) just laid where the track will be and dirt in the other area for plants. I was going to use some form boards to separate the gravel from dirt below grade. I might even pull the separators later. My question is with maybe 8" width gravel right of way separating the dirt/plants, will the gravel work to keep the track in place just floating. Also, I'm hoping the gravel will help limit plant growth, therefore maintenance. Input?


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I would do concrete since you have such a hard base to put it on.

Or......I would do ladder type roadbed, put some kind of a week barrier under it and fill the middle with gravel. Then back fill to it.

With gravel in the middle it will help to keep the roadbed in place and the spacers between the sides of the ladder roadbed will give you some place to anchor the track. 

You can use the wire method like I do. 


Nothing says you can't do ladder type roadbed on the ground. It does not have to be up on posts. 

Drive stakes in the ground where you can to secure the ladder road bed in place. 

I do not think gravel alone is a deterrent for weeks. In fact I think it will encourage them to grow there. 

Aggressive weed spraying is the only way to stop weeds. Saturation spraying of maybe Round up. 



JJ


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll chime in favoring gravel roadbed, 
My railway at my former residence was surrounded by rocks about a foot above grade, filled with soil/sawdust/rocks, anything I could scrounge and compact, then I dug a 6" deep trench where the track would go and filled to slightly above the dirt with #2 gravel. I laid the track (Aristocraft sectional) and ballasted with 1A gravel with dust. I then built mountains with rocks and plants so one side of the railway was not visible from the other. I admit that I came to garden railroading from the garden side but after the bug bit I really got into it and am now 100% live steam. 
For 14 years I got good service and enjoyed the view from my back deck whether trains were running or not. I am in western NY state between Rochester and Buffalo where winter is no stranger. Each spring some maintenance was required but was not too bad and I like puttering in the garden anyway. You didn't mention your location, winter conditions, etc which could influence the advice you're given. 
I feel that drainage is most important for both successful track laying and garden building. If your soil is as impenetrable as you suggest you will want to raise your railroad anyway. If you are subject to heavy rains you will need to consider where you need the water to go to get away from the railway. 
To balance this let me say that I think ladder roadbed is superb for getting trains running quickly especially if you need to raise your railway above grade. Another support method you might consider is using deck blocks on grade with uprights of pvc pipe or treated lumber to support your ladder. Several live steamers in this area have used this method and there is no evidence of frost heave. My new railway is built on Eaglewings frames with their spike suppport system in the ground and that has given no trouble but it is quite expensive. 
Good luck with your entry into this fascinating hobby. I'm sure you will receive lots of good advice from this forum, 
Tom


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Just to add some info. In central Texas between San Antonio and Austin. We have mild winters and snows once every 10-20 years and gone in a day so that's not a real concern. Of course now that I say that, we'll probably get the 1,000 year winter with multi-feet of snow this year. The rains are frequently gully washers, though this year has been worst drought on record. The area does drain well enough that water will not sit for long after the rains, but may puddle some. The gravel should handle that issue. The issue of driving PVC poles deep in the ground to be real sturdy is not gonna happen without major work drilling. That is why I HAD planned on just floating on the 6-8 wide gravel path. This gravel path will be 10-12" deep. The idea of the landscape fabric is a good one I had not thought about. The real concern I am not sure of is if just floating the track will keep it in place or not. Or should I consider driving some sort of stake with tie wire down thru the gravel every so often to keep it in place ?


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

If you do the trench with crusher fines tapped down very well I think that would work fine.  I have concrete and have to use masonary to relevel from time to time because of my wet ground! So I am not having great luck with concrete roadbed.
 
I have tried this year ladder I will see how it winters...the jury is still out..Like JJ says concrete or ladder.
 
I do not like free floating! I have had my RR for 10 years and that I know for sure!
 
Forgot to add for digging the holes for the ladder posts Tru Value hardware, (but other stores has to carry them), sells a bulb drill bit that makes drilling the holes for the poles with a drill EXTREMEY EASY!  $20 I have used it and saved me a lot of time...looks like a characature of a drill bit..very large!  
 
IMHO
 
Bubba


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I'm a Floater and I love it.... 
Had I known about it, I would have used a barrier cloth to prevent rocks from migrating into the 'soil', but once my sub roadbed stabilized no problems. 
I use a larger broken rock for the sub base and smaller broken rock for ballast. I use Aristo SS and torque the connector screws tight. 
I'm near the same lattitude as you, but over in S Az, my temps range from 15 degrees F to 115 and my track expands and contracts as a whole, I never worry about sun kinks. 
Broken rock is the key, the sharp corners tend to lock the rock together. After the monsoons I need to do cosmetic reballasting, but if I'm lazy I can still run on the ballast as is... 
I run smaller 1:24 equipment and have hills and super elevated curves with no problems, though a voice I respect here will warn against super elevating your curves especially if you run longer equipment.... to each his own on that. 
Adjustments vetically are easy, if the track is low I lift and vibrate the track and the rock settles under it, if it's high moving it back and forth with downward pressure and it goes where I want.

John


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I did gravel, 2x6 cedar, and ladder, go for the ladder. I purchased a 3 inch hole auger, drilled my holes
24 inches deep.

Don


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello 
On my RR I have free floating, ladder on pvc pipe, and PT wood decking. For level and unmoving strength I like the PT wood but it is above the ground so I don't need to worry about rot etc... Expansion and contraction isn't an issue for me. My least favorite is the pvc pipe on ladder supports that had been pounded into the ground, the track screwed to it then gravel ballast brought up to it. i think the trouble is the track stays put but the ballast moves a bit and comes up around the rails. My preferred method is to free float. Like stated If there is a dip in the track lift it and fill in underneath to bring it back up or press it down if lifting. A weed barrier is a good idea but I have put it down in spots and weeds still find away around it. By free floating it is alot easier to change the track around then it would be if concrete or a ladder system is used and believe me things will change as you operate and come up with better ideas to implement. I haev free floated track on as little as 2 inches of blue stone. Make sure to use a stone that has sharp edges so they can grip and hold each other and the track. 
Happy RRing 
Todd


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Well ...You have gotten a myriad of opinions here.I too essentially asked the same questions over the years and last fall I started my first loop of PVC ladder. I finally got it installed and ballasted this summer and have run on ti many times now. OVer the few months that ballasting has been complete (is it ever really?) the ballast has setteld away from the rails and PVC roadbed. I will reballast it in the spring. Currently the PVC posts have not seemed to move and the loop is as level as it was before. I did a few things differntly though. I assmbled my loop first then drove the posts thru it. I cut the PVC in equal sections so they are not deep enough to go below frost level (I may regret that?) and I simply poured the ballast in around the completed ladder once it was screwed in place. I also did not screw the track to the ladder (yet) figrugin I can do that relatively easily later if I needed to. I'm about a foot off ground level at the highest point. No tamping or compacting of the ballast at all, and it is solid ballast mounded up that high. I did put weed block down, but the soil underneath was tilled up before I started so I expected some compaction as things settled in. I've already bought some more PVC to continue the expansion but until I bridge a gap I've not come up with a master plan yet. If time and weather permits I'll be workign on that bridge over the winter with expansion to commence in the spring. As I foresee most of my railroad being raised from here. As I go towards the back of my property the ground slopes away and I am hoping to get to a point where some of my railroad is on raised platforms or in raised planter sections, or both. Concrete is tempting though... 

Chas


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

This is the first year I have also used PVC ladder...
I was told the frost line is 48"...I only went down to 2' in some places less in others so I really don't think unless you go down to the frost level it will not matter how far you go....jury is still out and I'll know more after winter how it all faired.....will post when I find out.

Concrete is a hassle, for ME because of my wet area and the ground sagging in spots...but since it is there I don't mind releveling with masonay, when needed.

I also have some free floating that always needs to be releveled..that may go this spring for the ladder as it just has to lay on the ground without any posts...maybe.

Dunno...it is a journey though!









Bubba


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I've done floating and concrete and concrete wins for maintenance free. You gotta do it right, though (thickness adequate, gravel under concrete after tamping; no steel rebar or if use it, keep it 2" away from outside minimum. I suspect those who used concrete and failed did it wrong. With floating method, you'll have annual maintenance and weeding and stuff like that. 

DaveV


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By SE18 on 11 Oct 2011 09:17 AM 
I've done floating and concrete and concrete wins for maintenance free. You gotta do it right, though (thickness adequate, gravel under concrete after tamping; no steel rebar or if use it, keep it 2" away from outside minimum. I suspect those who used concrete and failed did it wrong. With floating method, you'll have annual maintenance and weeding and stuff like that. 

DaveV 
If you do concrete right your side to side level is always right and your grades ever change. 

Frost heave? Saturate the ground around it with water and step on the roadbed and push it back down to level 

I am in AZ and do not have to suffer the pangs of Frost Heave. 

JJ


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

First became interested in concrete b/c I have a large number of high ridges upon which tracks are laid. The gravel or crusher fines would frequently wash away despite plantings and various buttress devices. I ended up setting the track in concrete. 

Been working well for years, and we get frost heave too. Took these photos yesterday evening. In a real RR, raindrops wouldn't knock the ballast down from the ridge but in this tiny scale or 7/8" (1:13.7), the rain will cause a steep ridge like this to wash away.

Dave V


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

What I like about the ladder is I haven't had to do any track maintenance since I've put it in (3 years ago). Prior I had to do some tweaking periodically throughout the year and quite a bit in the Spring to prevent derailments - re-level things side-to-side and up-and-down.


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By John J on 11 Oct 2011 09:34 AM 
Posted By SE18 on 11 Oct 2011 09:17 AM 
I've done floating and concrete and concrete wins for maintenance free. You gotta do it right, though (thickness adequate, gravel under concrete after tamping; no steel rebar or if use it, keep it 2" away from outside minimum. I suspect those who used concrete and failed did it wrong. With floating method, you'll have annual maintenance and weeding and stuff like that. 

DaveV 
If you do concrete right your side to side level is always right and your grades ever change. 

Frost heave? Saturate the ground around it with water and step on the roadbed and push it back down to level 

I am in AZ and do not have to suffer the pangs of Frost Heave. 

JJ 



Unfortunately mine sinks so I have to either build up with masonary or use a pry bar to lift it up then back fill under it...it sometimes heaves but goes back down in early spring.

And I have noticed that side to side is sometimes in need of build up with masonary due to the fact of when useing benderboard or simular borads even though a guy checks and rechecks level sometimes it is not as level as it should.....user error, maybe, but I have tried to be very careful but this is what I have noticed...I am getteing good at releveling and laying concrete.....not a problem....just like the ladder, have done it 3 times so it is not an issue to do it quickly and accurately.


Bubba


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

As a ladder guy, obviously I am for ladder. The reason I chose ladder was flexability over concrete. Free floating roadbed is definately more flexable than ladder, but I wanted a more stable base to put my track one. I decided ladder was the happy medium. If you want to get started in your outdoor empire then try free floating, you can always change to ladder afterwards. That is the beauty of free floating. 

Also, you can most definately just put the ladder on the ground. A unique idea is to use both free floating with the ladder. Dig your trench for the roadbed like you would for a free floating roadbed, but place the ladder in the trench and fill around it. This gives you a nice base for track and it is a little more flexable. I would definately look into a PVC based material for the ladder since you are burying it, so you dont have a problem with rot.


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

My roadbed floats on quarter down limestone. I resupply the roadbed each spring and it holds up well except in a heavy down pour like we had a week ago. I have an open house each Halloween and the kids and parents enjoy it. 
Ron


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## tj44cj (Oct 28, 2011)

I'm new to this and just starting to try a layout. Can some of you who use concrete bed post pictures or videos. I'm in Calif near Bakersfield and it always dry here so I think concrete will work best.Thanks


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Couple of recent threads on concrete for you 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/9/aft/115262/Default.aspx 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/9/aft/116209/Default.aspx


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## HaBi Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

Has anyone done a cost comparison of different types of road bed? As in cost per foot of track?


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## KGierman (Jan 21, 2008)

I have all 3 types of rail bed on my railroad. We have a 43" frost depth (potential) in the winter. My lot is well drained where the railroad is - dig a bushel sized hole to plant something and you have a bushed of rocks + dirt in between. My PVC posts for the ladder are only in the ground 2" to 3" and have been in place for 4 years now. I can confirm that crusher run encourages weed growth. We struggle with purslane throughout the growing season. We use a lot of Roundup. All three track bed methods work comparably for me in supporting the track which free-floats in ballast regardless of track bed. The only areas I have problems are with my temporary (8 year old) trestles that are 5/4 P.T wood supported on galvanized tubing driven into the ground. Those sections frost heave. Concrete was too much work for me. Because I have such good drainage, any future expansion will be strip the sod, tamp, 5/8 minus crusher run (locally that is limestone) for roadbed and ballast. If the drainage wasn't so good I would probably do a table type of raised layout similar to an inside lay. I have actually considered converting because it is harder each year for me to work at ground level. 

Keith


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