# PVC pipe roadbed substructure



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hello,


I recently read a great thread here on PVC pipe roadbed, begun by Bob Hyman:


http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/9/aft/109271/afv/topic/Default.aspx


In that thread were some wonderful pics of Ken’s and Roger’s layouts, showing foam roadbed applied to the top two pipes, and I was wondering if I could post a few questions just on that subject. 


For background though, I’m seriously considering using this (Bob’s #2) method next spring, but with this twist: to accurately establish track centerlines in the midst of undulating terrain, and backfilling up to the roadbed once all is positioned properly and at the correct grades. In other words, I’d like to map out the centerlines with confidence, and make the terrain match that. 


The compressed nature of my layout makes this approach very attractive; the UV and structural issues of a triple PVC pipe roadbed substructure seem to be solved. And if I go the more traditional route of digging trenches and filling with gravel, I suspect I’ll have mistakes that are much harder to correct.


So here’s the question. What’s the roadbed material on the PVC pipes? I’m purely guessing here, but on Roger’s layout, the foam appears to be some sort of styrafoam sheet or foam core board; on Ken’s, it looks like the (kinda-hard-to-get!) foam signage board from Coastal Enterprises (www.precisionboard.com). Can either of you gentlemen, or Pete T., or anyone else, comment on what materials these are, or should be?


In regards to the method I’ve described though, I have additional concerns. For example, I suppose that in running the dirt up to the pipe (vs. having a mostly-elevated layout, per the pics on that thread), one runs the risk of stepping on the track and breaking all three pipes – a risk that the crushers-in-the-trench method doesn’t have. Does anyone have pointers / warnings / advice / experience / links to share on this?


Thanks all for any insights, I sure appreciate them!


===Cliff


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Cliff, 
I recently (1 year ago) went through this myself. I looked at the PVC method and gave it some consideration. The PVC acts as a "spine" which will give good support longitudally (SP) is that actually a word? I mean length wise! I dont recall seeing foam board but I can only assume it would go on top of the PVC to act as a foundation for the roadbed/ gravel or whatever the finished road bed will be made of. I did something a little different (ladder system) and it failed. Reason it failed was I did not support it adequately. So my pearls for you are: plant your support posts deep enough (esp if you are in a frost area), keep them close enough (you decide), and strong enough I would suggest 4x4s. I eventually went with a "floating" road bed supported by 2x4 blocks. In other words my tracks just lays in the fine gravel and every 30 inches I have a 12 inch long 2x4 buried on end that the tracks gets screwed to. This is another one of those things that can be done many different ways. Good luck with yours. 
Don


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Thread I started a while ago with a few pics: 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/23/aft/116715/afv/topic/Default.aspx


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Todd, thanks for the ideas and pics. Do your wood blocks stay put, or do they try to push up in a freeze (if you live in a frost zone)?


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## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Cliff,
In the "for what it's worth" department, I am no longer using PVC pipe for my roadbed. I did put down about 100 feet or so using that method, but I have come up with an easier way to do it. I didn't have any issues with the old method but it took too long to put it together. My new method uses 1/4" x 1 1/2" PVC lattice for the splines and short pieces of 1" diameter PVC pipe for the spacers. The two splines are spaced apart so that a vertical piece of 1 1/4" PVC pipe fits between them. This places the two splines directly under the rails. I build the PVC roadbed on jigs at my workbench, lay the ties and rail on the PVC, and then take the assembled piece outside and attach it to the vertical risers. My jigs are made from pieces of 3/4" particle board to which I glue on paper templates I print out on my PC. It sounds a lot more complicated than it is so here are a few photos that will help you to see how the method works. The photos show sections in various stages of construction on the shop floor. The floor tiles are 1 foot squares.


This first photo shows the jig for a curved turnout with a 30 foot radius on the outer leg and a 20 foot radius on the inner leg. Directly below the jig are two PVC roadbed sections made on this jig. The top section is a 30 foot radius curve and the bottom section is a right hand curved turnout. Neither of the two sections have had ties or rail added at this point. 












This second photo shows a roadbed section made on a different jig. It is a curved turnout with a 15 foot radius on the outer leg and a 10 foot radius on the inner leg. The cedar ties have been added but the rail has not yet been spiked. 












The third photo shows a completed 30 foot radius curve section ready to go outside on the layout. Notice how the rails line up directly above the PVC splines. The rails are Code 215 aluminum.












The fourth photo show the same section shown in the previous photo from the bottom.









As you can see from these photos, I hand-lay most of my track. However, the method works equally well for flex-track or sectional track.I find that this roadbed method is considerably faster than the old method. If you or anyone else would like a more detailed explanation of this method, or how I make the paper templates and jigs, let me know and I'll put together a post showing the details.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob, 

How are you joining the pieces of the ladder? PVC cement? Where did you find the 1/4" lattice?


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Cliff, as you build the PVC roadbed and lay the track on top, remember to leave area for expansion because PVC and metal has different thermal expansion characteristics. The metal rail can tear the roadbed apart as it moves. 
Ron


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## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Jim,
Yes, I use PVC pipe cement to glue the spacers to the splines. The ties are glued to the PVC splines with polyurethane glue (gorilla glue). Rail is spiked with four spike per tie. The PVC lattice is from Lowe's. It runs slightly over $5 for an 8-foot piece. The individual sections are bolted to the vertical stanchions at two-foot intervals with 2 1/2" carriage bolts. The sections are connected together with 12-inch long splice plates made from the same lattice material as the splines. Four 1-inch carriage bolts are used on each splice plate.


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## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Here is a drawing of how the PVC roadbed is constructed. PVC lattice splines are gray, 1" PVC pipe spacers are blue, splice plates are yellow, and the vertical 1 1/4" PVC pipe stanchions are orange. The is a 1/16" gap between roadbed sections. The elongated holes in the PVC splines allow them to move slightly at the carriage bolt locations to allow for expansion/contraction. Section length is variable, but most are eight feet long.


(Deleted link to non-existent image, SteveC mod.)[/i]


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## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Here is an updated drawing (same info, just smaller size.)


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Bob, 
Awesome diagram; and I just saw your November posts of your fantastic layout design. Nice work! 

I love that pvc lath; but i can't find the material anywhere. What exactly is it called? 

Thanks for the great ideas and pics, 
Cliff


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, This my first winter with the wooden blocks so I can't say how they will do with the frost. They are meant to "float" like the track but give the track some stability...like the keel on a sailboat???


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## Westcott (Feb 17, 2009)

Bob, 
Can you repost the large picture, please? 
It's gone missing, and the small one is too small to read. 

Thanks, 
Hamish


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Bob, 

Still can't find that PVC lath (even in an OK Lowe's)... but assuming I can get it somehow (in MD), the method -- though an elegant refinement of the ladder method, with many benny's -- seems to be about 2x the price of your pvc pipe "method 2". 

For this next season (with the track purchases... that's the big whopper!), I need to cut costs where sensible. So, I was wondering if there were any major pitfalls in the 3-pipe method? Like, what happens if you accidentally step on the track? Will the structure break?


My other question still stands though: does anyone have any ideas about how best to make that upper foam roadbed? (Oops, adding that foam would make that method more expensive than your ladder approach, Bob...)

OK, so while I'm rambling, I was really wanting to use the ladder approach, but couldn't find cedar anywhere here in MD (that is, unless you were willing to trade your track budget for it!!), and it started to seem like the good ol' trench-in-the-dirt approach was looking OK. 

But with these cheap PVC materials, I'm waffling back to a substructure, but am still on the fence in some regards. So all the input here is tremendously helpfull, thanks everyone.

Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Another question, about ladder methods in general: how deep should the gravel go beneath it? Do you need a gravel-filled trench, or are things stable enough to just lay the ladder in the dirt (with frost heave in mind)?


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I cannot really address the PVC pipe questions. I Bought at Home Depot last summer and got laid last fall some of the PVC trim boards that Homeless Despot sells. 1/2 by 1 1/2 I believe? A a stick of 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 as well. !2 foot lengths if I recall? I chopped up the square section into 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 blocks for spacers. Laid out my sectional curves and bent and clamped & screwed together the PVC to match (I know I'm supposed to bend the rails to match the subroadbed.) I used scraps of PT wood to join them and may need to re-visit that method in the spring. I think my scraps were too small? I am starting with a basic oval in the front yard. I did not get the track down before our winter started. So an 8 foot wide by 20 foot long layout for starters used some of the square piece for spacers and 8 pieces of the trim plank with a box of 1" deck screws. 

Chas


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## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Here are links to higher resolution copies of the roadbed drawing that uses the PVC lattice for the splines:

1024x768 resolution
1561x888 resolution

As to the availability of the PVC lattice material (or lath material), I will stop by the local Lowe's this evening on the way home from work and get additional information on the stock number and product identification. I'll post the info when I get home. Besides, I need to pick-up a couple of hundred feet anyway. I'll also ask if others can have the Lowe's nearest them special order it. I know it is not on the Lowe's web site, but most of the local Lowe's stores here in the Oklahoma City area have it in stock. It is $5.08 per 8-foot section.

As to the question about the strength of the two-spline and three-spline PVC pipe methods I posted last year, they are both extremely strong with the three-spline version being the strongest. I took a couple of demonstration sections to a train meet in St. Louis last year. As part of my demo, I placed a short section of the three-spline version (the one with the triangular cross-section) on the floor supported by wooden blocks at about a two-foot spacing. I then stood on the section and it didn't even flex. (I weigh 190 pounds.)


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

That's great news Bob, on both the weight tolerance and product info. Thanks! 

I'm home sick today*, with nothing better to do than try to track down materials, and I just ran across an article that uses a slightly different twist on all we're talking about: 

http://home.comcast.net/~therealms/roadbed.htm 

This method involves a trough made from outboard PVC sheet strips, screwed to a precut foam board spacer / base, with pvc pipe caps on pvc pipe as posts. 

Thanks Bob, don't buy too many extra tools while you're at Lowe's , 

Cliff 

*Probably TMI for younger viewers, who should leave the room now, but I just wanted to pass on to those who, like me, have been putting off their next colonoscopy (and you know who you are): the sweeet upside is that, when it's over, you get to eat, drink beer, and surf the net all day afterwards, and still get paid. (Big tip: go for a morning procedure. Bonus tip for you non-retired dudes: schedule it on a week day.) And your wife is proud of you!


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## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

I stopped by my local Lowe's and got the product info on the PVC lattice material I am using for my PVC spline roadbed. The material is called is Rot Free (Registered Brand Name) Cellular Vinyl PVC Moulding. Not all Lowe's stores carry it in stock. It is not on the Lowe's web site. However, the store manager told me that anyone should be able to go to their nearest Lowe's store and have it ordered for them. There is an entire line of individual products in this line ... everything from window and door trims, exterior trim, siding trim, porch trim, crown mouldings, to complete garage door trim packages. They are all listed in the Special Order brochure in the millwork department. This particular product is one of the porch trim items:

PVC Lattice 8'



Item# 209626
Model# 2018 

SKU 0070673842139
Price $5.08 


If your local Lowe's store millwork department cannot find the item, have them call the Lowe's store #2574 in Midwest City, OK at (405) 869-8700.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Bob, thanks a ton for that research. I've looked high and low for anything like this (in cedar, PVC, whatever) for any kind of ladder construction, so I really appreciate your finding this material. 
I see that Lowe's lists larger Rot Free products (3/4 thick); so that's confirming. I'll be sure to look into those other profiles you mention as well. 
Thanks again, 
Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Bob / all,

Recommended for this PVC approach, on a different thread, are 2" pvc posts, set in concrete: http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

I'm in a frost-heave-sensitive situation (Maryland), so I need to put forward a couple more questions.

1. Concrete anchoring of posts: how does the concrete grab the otherwise slippery PVC post? Put some screws into the post down there, before the pour?

2. What happens to the splines between the posts with frost heave? Does the ground just push everything up directly (as would be the case with a solid foam roadbed, I suppose), or instead tend to slide around the splines? Put differently, does the ladder arc up between (well-anchored) posts?

Thanks, and regards,

Cliff


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

does the ladder arc up between (well-anchored) posts 
Cliff - if they are well-anchored, you won't get any frost heave - that's the point of anchoring them deep in the ground. Below 3' the ground isn't frozen (in MD.) 

Concrete grabs PVC posts without any problem - they are not that slippery nor are they totally smooth. (Otherwise the post would slip further down into the earth below the concrete, perhaps.) But drill a few holes if you are worried.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Pete, you answered my question on whether conrete adheres well to the PVC, sounds like it does. 

My first question was related, but perhaps confusing. Let me try to re-state. Given that the pvc board is quite flexible, does the ladder (when set in the soil) tend to arc up between the posts with frost, then settle back down, etc., with the result being buckled track? Or does the ladder bahave (e.g., the forsted soil just pushes through the ladder)? 

The reason I ask is that I'm looking for confirmation that the very flexible pvc boards are a proper material for the ladder method on northern climes, or if, say, cedar would be better. I think you're saying pvc is fine. 

Guessing from your logo pic, you are in Maryland as well?

Thanks again,

Cliff


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff,
I'm a bit further south, in Northern Virginia, just outside the beltway. I've had very good luck with the ladder method using TufBoard, available from Home Depot. The posts and spacers are made from treated lumber - sold in 4' lengths for vertical porch railings. I doubt if I go down more than 6" anywhere. No problems with frost heave, but it has only been out since 2006. I've got raised sections as well as ground level.



















I've got a build log over here: http://www.largescalecentral.com/LS...hp?id=6204

I also built a raised yard using pressure treated 2x10.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

My first question was related, but perhaps confusing. Let me try to re-state. Given that the pvc board is quite flexible, does the ladder (when set in the soil) tend to arc up between the posts with frost, then settle back down, etc., with the result being buckled track? Or does the ladder bahave (e.g., the forsted soil just pushes through the ladder)? 

Cliff, 

_Yes, I'm in MD - Annapolis - but in a condo so no track. I run on Rog's RGS East in White Hall, MD, which used to be all PVC but is now slowly getting buried in ballast. Send me a pm with your email and I'll get you an invite to Rog's next Open House. [Probably around ECLSTS.]_ 

I think your understanding of "frost heave" is a bit suspect as I still don't understand your question! The 'heave' is in the soil, not in the ladder -pvc/spline roadbed. Cold makes most things shrink (so they wouldn't push upwards.) However, ice is 10% more volume than water - which is why pipes split if they freeze - and wet ground heaves upwards as it freezes, as it has nowhere else to go. But only the surface freezes so you put your pipes deeper than that and let the earth do its thing around your uprights. The ladder-pvc/spline roadbed shouldn't go anywhere.


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## TrotFox (Feb 15, 2008)

Pete, 

I think the question is a good one that needs a good answer. It's also something I've wondered about. If your spline roadbed is laying on the ground between the posts (or is burried in ballast) then what happens to the track/roadbed between the posts when the ground pushes up on the relatively unsupported portion? You can't say the ground heaving isn't affecting the PVC if the PVC is in intimate contact with the heaved portion. 

Does that make more sense? 

Trot, the similarly-confused, fox...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Awesome, Bruce! Thanks for the pics. I'm just north of you, so that's all very reassuring!
Wonderful work! Is it my imagination, or was your layout featured in a semi-recent Garden Railways issue? I flipped through some back issues, but couldn't find it.

Regardless, I'll be sure to check in to your blog. Thanks!

Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Trot, you said it way mo' better. Yes, that's what I was trying to ask. Pete, sorry for the confusion, and indeed, my understanding of frost heave is completely suspect because I don't have any! I've read several articles, and thanks for your additional points, but I have a long way to go in taking the voodoo out of it. 

As Trot said, I don't understand how frozen, heaving soil acts upon horizontal structures that are otherwise vertically pinned, structures such as ladders or triple-pvc-pipes that we've been discussing.

Behind that question, what I'm asking is whether the gravel-in-the-trench guys are on a more reliable "track," in the long run, and whether I should just stick with that for next spring's budget & build. With the gravel-only approach, everything would seem to just do what it wants, and all you have to do is accommodate things by letting the track float, and make sure the drainage works (i'm over-simplifying, but you know what I'm saying). However, Don / Sailbode made a good point earlier in this thread, in semi-anchoring things laterally, but not vertically. 


But since Bruce is using Tufbord for the ladder method in the climatic conditions I'm facing, that answers the viablity question for sure. Also, Armorsmith / Bob (see the related thread, http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx) assures that the PVC board, when used in the ladder method, doesn't sag too much in general. 

Even so, I suspect that solid horizontal roadbed surfaces (such as foam board) secured to the substructure (whether pipe or ladder) will not do well when laid upon the soil, because so much more surface area is presented to the heaving soil. My guess is that such a solid horizontal surface (vs. gravel surrounding the triple-pipes or ladder), if vertically fixed while the soil is not, would disrupt not only the track above, but the sturcture beneath, rendering the underlying plastic materials severely prone to fatigue / stress failure with each progressive season. If not sooner.

But that's merely my prognostication. 

Trying not to through too much $$ down the drain, and thanks everyone so much for helping me out,

Cliff in Maryland


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Bruce, 

You're build log is hugely instructive, I'm still aborbing it. Question related to something you said there: 

"While at Home Depot today, I couldn't find the "Never Rot" stuff (they enjoy moving things around on me) but found a new product to try: "TUF Board". They claim it's a "maintenance free composite plastic", with all sorts of advantages. The immediate advantage that I saw was that it was $3.80 for an 8 foot section. I had been paying close to $11 for a 12 foot section of the other stuff." 

Seems like you have been using both products, Bruce; how do they compare in your ladder work? Some of the composite plastic boards are made with wood fiber, is Tufbord (can't remember), and do you need to seal the ends or anything special like that? 

Here's a question: if you were to have used the triple-pvc-pipe method instead of plastic-board-ladder, would you be now shooting yourself? If so, why, and with what calibre of bullet? (  ) 

Cliff


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff,
Glad the log helped. I'm sure it will take awhile to pore through all the verbiage. 


And, you ask some interesting questions. I definitely prefer the TufBoard over the Never Rot. It actually seems sturdier to me; more like wood. I don't seal anything with either product. I do paint it, just so it isn't so stark. A can of spray primer and I'm done.


I never even considered the triple pipe method; I don't think anyone had used it when I started mine. I still don't think I'd use it. I like the idea of the ladder method giving me a nice flat surface (each side about 3/4" thick) to lay my track on. And, since my spacers are the same dimension as my vertical poles, it's very easy to put the pole in the ladder for support. The ladder can be easily repositioned on the pole and then fastened with a deck screw. 


My largest unsupported span is probably about 2 feet and I haven't encountered any sag with either product.

Come on down and visit sometime.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thank you Bruce for the quick reply, and the great info. And I'll keep reading your log, it's amazing and very instructive.

Indeed, that whole issue of vertical adjustment is huge, I couldn't see any way to deal with that (in the triple-pipe method) other than concentric-pipe posts (and the pvc diameters didn't work well with that). 

I admit though, I'm on the fence as to pvc-ladder vs. concrete roadbed. If you could, please see this parallel thread, particularly the later posts:

http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

To quote Josh / Manco specifically:

"Don't be scared away from considering concrete. With reinforcement IE: 3/8" strand of rebar running down the center of your pour, it distributes the forces of heaving enough that cracking should for the most part be eliminated. Marty has used it successfully for years and it gets cold at his house. I poured some ribbon roadbed with reinforcement last summer. The ground has been frozen for several weeks now and I keep going out to check... no cracks. At this point last year, my PVC ladder roadbed had heaved into a roller coaster. So far so good."

I truly apologise for having begun two threads (I thought they were on different subjects, but they've tended to converge), but I really need to know if the plastic substructure holds up in the long run, or if I should just lay concrete. My track plan is quite stable, design-wise, at least in the sections I'd like to lay next spring...

Thoughts?

Cliff


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, 
My only experience with concrete is using it as a base for some of my buildings. I don't think I could offer anything constructive since I haven't played with it. I did find the ladder very easy to get the natural easements that I had been looking for when I started my layout.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Bruce, 

I tried to PM you to see if I could go down there sometime, it didn't work; maybe you could PM me with an email address? I'd sure love to see your layout and discuss these things FTF! 

Best regards,
Cliff


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, I live south of Chicago, I went with the ladder method because of the slope of my yard, I pounded 1.5 PVC pipe in the ground about 18-24 inches into the ground, my track goes from ground level to 20 inches off the ground, has been out for 2 winters now, my opionon is the frost heave does not affect pipe that is in the ground hardly at all, not a flat surface to push on, dirt goes around outside and inside of pipe, mine has not moved in 2 years. 

Tom h


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, I guess we have to add each other as friends to send a message. I've tried that; we'll see. If not, you can always send an email via that building log.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for that info Tom, that makes much sense, and I'm glad to hear that it's all behaving!
What do you use for spacer blocks in your ladder?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Will do Bruce, thanks.
I've just spent over an hour in your building log; holy cow! Lotsa great info there.
What is your current thinking now on using PT 2x2 for spacer blocks? Are they showing signs of rot like someone suggested in your log, and have you switched over to a plastic board for those as well? 
Similar thing for posts: if you were to do it all over again, would you consider 1.5" pvc pipe instead?


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

No problem with the PT for spacers. I like them because they ARE wood and hold a deck screw very nicely. A pipe, being round, just seems weird to me. Easy to attach the ladder to a flat surface.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

10-4 on the spacers Bruce, thanks for the info. 
Just got back from a survey on Home Depot & Lowe's stuff, and yes, the Tuf Board seems quite more rigid. 
Fyi, Lowes had a product called Evertrue; 5/8"x1-1/2"x12' was $10.92. The Home Depot version, Veranda (I think by Never Rot) was a buck more for the same kind of thing. 
Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

A few more questions folks, and thanks SO MUCH for everyone's help (on this thread, and the other ones), 

1. Some swear by PVC pipe posts, planted in concrete. I like the price and inorganic-ness of this approach. Any comments? 

2. Regardless of post approach, I've got really hard / rocky soil, and it's very difficult to sledge-hammer in even stamped steel fence posts more than a foot. Given the need for ~2' post spacing, wanting to make things stay put, and the soil conditions, post-hole digging is not really practical. I'm considering a 4" augur bit ( http://neatitems.com/Dirt_Daug.htm ). Has anyone had luck with this sort of thing? 

3. I like the rigidity and price of the Tuf Board. I saw it today, but didn't bend it to a 4' radius (my min) because I didn't want to crack it. What was I thinking??? I should have just bought the piece and tried it in the parking lot! Stupid me. But has anyone bent it down to that radius, and have it behave? Or should I just go with the 100% PVC board (which will clearly curve that much)? 

4. Tuf Board lit says it's cellular PVC, their web site says nothing about wood dust mixed in (http://www.tufboard.net/pages/pvc-benefits). But the dude at Home Depot said it has that wood ingredient. I think he's wrong; but it IS more rigid than the Rot Free, Never Rot and Ever True "cellular vinyl pvc" products. Maybe they are are more flexible because of differing vinyl composition (getting in way over my head here...) ? 

5. Whether Tuf Board or the other stuff, do they bond just like, say, PVC pipe fittings, and does the bond last during frost heave cycles? I notice that Bob Hyman even uses PVC pipe for spacers -- glued in, no screws. (But I think he uses the vinyl-pvc (Never Rot or Rot Free), as opposed to Tuf Board). 

Thanks again for all the facts and pointers. I'm still somewhat on the fence (plastic ladder vs. concrete), but given my terrain situation I think I'm really going to need the 3D plastic-ribbon-in-space to make final adustments, especially grades. 

Cliff


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Cliff, I used cedar blocks that after they were in I used Spar Varnish to coat them, UV protection and waterproof. I used planking from Lowes, 10 3/4 wide, 3/4 thick, 10 ft length, I ripped it in 5 pieces, real easy to work with around corners. Instead of PVC piping, I ended up buying electrical PVC piping, on sale for a whole lot less than plumbing PVC, and it was already grey, and has some UV protection. 

Tom H


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

Posted By CliffyJ on 13 Jan 2011 04:01 PM 
A few more questions folks, and thanks SO MUCH for everyone's help (on this thread, and the other ones), 

1. Some swear by PVC pipe posts, planted in concrete. I like the price and inorganic-ness of this approach. Any comments? 

2. Regardless of post approach, I've got really hard / rocky soil, and it's very difficult to sledge-hammer in even stamped steel fence posts more than a foot. Given the need for ~2' post spacing, wanting to make things stay put, and the soil conditions, post-hole digging is not really practical. I'm considering a 4" augur bit ( http://neatitems.com/Dirt_Daug.htm ). Has anyone had luck with this sort of thing? 

3. I like the rigidity and price of the Tuf Board. I saw it today, but didn't bend it to a 4' radius (my min) because I didn't want to crack it. What was I thinking??? I should have just bought the piece and tried it in the parking lot! Stupid me. But has anyone bent it down to that radius, and have it behave? Or should I just go with the 100% PVC board (which will clearly curve that much)? 

4. Tuf Board lit says it's cellular PVC, their web site says nothing about wood dust mixed in (http://www.tufboard.net/pages/pvc-benefits). But the dude at Home Depot said it has that wood ingredient. I think he's wrong; but it IS more rigid than the Rot Free, Never Rot and Ever True "cellular vinyl pvc" products. Maybe they are are more flexible because of differing vinyl composition (getting in way over my head here...) ? 

5. Whether Tuf Board or the other stuff, do they bond just like, say, PVC pipe fittings, and does the bond last during frost heave cycles? I notice that Bob Hyman even uses PVC pipe for spacers -- glued in, no screws. (But I think he uses the vinyl-pvc (Never Rot or Rot Free), as opposed to Tuf Board). 

Thanks again for all the facts and pointers. I'm still somewhat on the fence (plastic ladder vs. concrete), but given my terrain situation I think I'm really going to need the 3D plastic-ribbon-in-space to make final adustments, especially grades. 

Cliff 
Cliff,

I have much softer ground than you but did drive my 3" PVC about 2 feet into the soft ground for stability of the tallest sections. I'm using a Tuff Board ladder to support my track, the "rungs" are made of Trex. I don't think there is any wood product in the Tuff Board, unlike Trex. I needed something very salt water tolerant as I live on a mangrove swamp, hence the railroad's name, the Old Salt and Mangrove RR (Old S&M). I think Tuff Board will bend to a 4' diameter. My tightest curve is 8' but that was a breeze to do. Here is a picture of what I have done so far.


http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i27/rmcintir/Trains/NewSpurSiding.jpg

Hope the picture helps. I know you can't use this tip but for others driving 3" pvc into softer ground, I highly recommend the post driver from Northern. It is 3 1/2" inside diameter, perfect for the PVC I used. For hard ground I would definitely get an auger, preferably on a tractor!







Good luck, looking forward to some pictures of your finished product,


russ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the replies, Tom and Russ. 
After some serious soul searching & brain wracking, and a lot of input on a related thread, I've decided on going with an all-concrete ribbon for next spring's build. 
I'll be sure to post some pics as I get into it! 
Best regards, 
Cliff


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

sorry if this has been answered but is this the PVC lattice you are using for spleens? 

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...roductId=1114111&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=sim 

Also, are you attaching the PVC cross pieces (tubes) to the lattice using purple primer and PVC cement? 

thanks 

Dave V


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

As Trot said, I don't understand how frozen, heaving soil acts upon horizontal structures that are otherwise vertically pinned, structures such as ladders or triple-pvc-pipes that we've been discussing. 
Cliff, 

Sorry for the late reply. I didn't realise you were worrying about ground-level track support. Most PVC lattice or pipe roadbeds I've seen have been on posts. 

My outdoor layout in MD (Annapolis) used conventional roadbed - 6" x6" trench made with a trenching shovel from Home Depot and filled with "crusher fines" i.e. rock dust used under garden path block/slabs. I had occasional problems with frost heave, and had to re-ballast every spring anyway due to rain washing away the ballast - but so did the real railroads! 
Concrete is a bit 'final' - you can't change your mind about the track layout very easily, and if it does crack you have a big problem on your hands?


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

ignore my first question (but please answer my 2nd question--are you attaching the PVC cross pieces (tubes) to the lattice using purple primer and PVC cement?)

I see that Bob posted: PVC Lattice 8' Item# 209626 Model# 2018 SKU 0070673842139 Price $5.08 If your local Lowe's store millwork department cannot find the item, have them call the Lowe's store #2574 in Midwest City, OK at (405) 869-8700. 

Item# 209626 Model# 2018 SKU 0070673842139 Price $5.08 If your local Lowe's store millwork department cannot find the item, have them call the Lowe's store #2574 in Midwest City, OK at (405) 869-8700. 
I stopped by my local Lowe's and got the product info on the PVC lattice material I am using for my PVC spline roadbed. The material is called is Rot Free (Registered Brand Name) Cellular Vinyl PVC Moulding. Not all Lowe's stores carry it in stock. It is not on the Lowe's web site. However, the store manager told me that anyone should be able to go to their nearest Lowe's store and have it ordered for them. There is an entire line of individual products in this line ... everything from window and door trims, exterior trim, siding trim, porch trim, crown mouldings, to complete garage door trim packages. They are all listed in the Special Order brochure in the millwork department. This particular product is one of the porch trim items: 




.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Pete, 

Hey, I really want to thank you, Bob H., and all the others to help me understand this method. But yeah, my track is on the ground and the plan, after over a year of tweaking it for various factors, is very fixed. My layout will be more of a carefully planned diorama, I guess; but the track needs to be stable and as maintenance-free as I can manage. Please see the thread on "concrete roadbed questions" for the next chapter in my saga / worryings







. 

And again, thanks! Do you still have a layout near Annapolis?

Best regards,
Cliff


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By SE18 on 26 Jan 2011 09:49 AM 
ignore my first question (but please answer my 2nd question--are you attaching the PVC cross pieces (tubes) to the lattice using purple primer and PVC cement?)


If you are asking that about Bob Hyman's ladder roadbed, he answered that as a "yes" to my same question above.

Bob: a belated thanks for you answers to my questions regarding the cement and material.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you still have a layout near Annapolis? 
Unfortunately, Hurricane Isabel dumped the next-door neighbor's dock on top of my garden/layout (plus the contents of his oil tank.) As the house was destroyed too, the wife decided it was time to move to condo-living, where you don't get any garden! So no, it is defunct. 

I run my trains on Roger's RGSEast (was PVC pipe, somewhere N of Baltimore) and steam at Dr Rivet's (VA). Both welcome visitors - pm me if you haven't visited and I'll pass it on to them.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Wow... that's horrifically unfortunate, Pete. But I'm glad for your sake that a bunch of time has passed by, maybe it ouches a little less now?
Thanks for the invite though; I'll do just as you suggest -- when it gets a little warmer out there. 
Hope you weren't one of those folks stuck in their car all Wednesday night, in the snow-storm-traffic-jams that took place! 
===Cliff


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Hope you weren't one of those folks stuck in their car all Wednesday 
Not a chance. I'm in our Florida condo this week, planning my new outdoor railroad - in the center of an abandoned traffic circle outside our condo. It's 70 degrees and sunny. 

_Which is why I was following this thread - I reckon PVC lathe spline roadbed will suit me nicely, as I can't bury the supports on county property. (There's a sign on the road just before the circle that says "end of county maintenance" so I'm not expecting to be disturbed, but I'm prepared for someone to steal the whole thing one day!) I still have lots of rail left over from the pre-hurricane layout, so that will be in the car for the trip here next year._


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good for you!! Just watch out for those 35 degree lows, once you're re-acclimated!


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Posted By CliffyJ on 29 Jan 2011 01:49 PM 
Good for you!! Just watch out for those 35 degree lows, once you're re-acclimated!











Heh...current temp here is -15 with a windchill in the -30s. Brrrr


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

OT - anyone know why I'm always seeing this thread twice in the 'active topics' list? Is anyone else? Mr Moderator?


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Because it is an active thread that people are posting to. Blame it on me, I asked a question about the method


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm considering using this construction and checked it out today at Lowe's. In feeling the PVC lattice, it didn't feel like the PVC plumbing pipe to me, and I wasn't confident the 2 materials would stick together with PVC cement. Has your construction held up this year? Thanks. 
Ken Silva 
Phoenix, AZ


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Ken,

Cliff went with a concrete roadbed. However, I did use the PVC roadbed and it worked out great. I had very minimal heave (granted it was a mild winter, but the ground still froze). 

Here is a link to my building progress: Building the DBH

Feel free to ask any questions you need.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Thanks, Jake. Your construction looks like Disneyland to me. I'm going to do something more modest (at least to start), but similar. I'm going to go with the Rot Free from Lowe's, PVC pipe spacers, build all my roadbed inside in the A/C first, lay out the whole thing at one time, and then backfill. The Lowe's rock-guy says dig a 2" deep trench where necessary, and fill it with decomposed granite, then, pour more of the same stuff over the track for ballast and water will bind it all together without adding cement. I have a mild concern about track being stolen, as there's a big copper-theft issue here in Phoenix, so I thought free-floating track wouldn't be a good idea. 
RLD now has my tax refund money, I've moved the dining room table out to make some room in the house, and I eagerly await my first hands-on with some really big trains! 
Ken S. 
Phoenix, AZ


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Actually my railroad isnt all that big. The mainline is about 160 ft long. 

The decomposed granite will not "Bind" like concrete but it does set in place. The material you talk about has a lot of variation depending on where you are in the country. Does your material have finer stuff in it? If thats the case then i would use it as a base but definately not as the ballast on the track. The method you are describing about the trench is more of a free-floating method and you dont really need the ladder base. 

As for copper theft, I dont think you would have much of a problem with that. Does the average theif really know there is copper in the rails of your track and also there are a lot of other metals to make up the track. They wont get much if anything for your rail because it has too many other metals in it. Thieves are after the copper wire in electrical stuff and things like that, where its almost pure copper.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Hi, Jake. Yes, the decomposed granite I saw at Lowe's has a lot of sand and fine particulate in it. My layout is in a place where there's either going to be a lot of bridges or a lot of fill. That's why I am going with the Rot Free/PVC ladder base. There's only about 20 feet of the 150 foot line that will be at ground level, with the rest sloping away, and that's why I need to have it elevated when I build it. But I want the finished look to be "on the ground" and not an "el". That's why I will backfill after it's built on the ladder. Backfilling and a few of those interlocking block walls should be a lot easier than digging post holes in the very hard soil here in Phoenix. 

Regarding the copper-theft issue. I figure criminals are stupid, (a prerequisite for criminals methinks), and they'll see all the coppery-looking rail and just go for it, having nothing to lose. Maybe not. It's just a thought I had. 
Ken Silva


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Well your plan for making your railroad is just what I did for mine. I would use the pictures there for ideas. I chose the PVC stuff for the same reason you are, I didnt want it to rot sitting in the ground. Plus, I'm a stickler for good trackwork and I didnt like the movement that happens with the trenching method. I have to say that I am glad I chose the route I did for my track base, it worked for me. For others, they are welcome to whatever gets the wheels rolling. 

As for your decompsed granite, then I would not take the advice of the Lowes clerk. You dont need the base because your ladder will do that, plus you dont want all those fines. Find a cleaner rock for your ballast. In the ladder method, the ballast is just for looks. I got my ballast from a local rock quarry I used to work for. It is called -4 +6 fines. This means they screened off all the rocks larger than a 4 sieve (little smaller than a 1/4") and smaller than a 6 sieve (about an 1/8"). It works and looks great. Cost me about $2.00 for about 200 lbs of it. 

You could be right on the theft issue. It is really hard to say, there is no telling the stupidity of a criminal.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

I am trying to do the PVC pipe and Rot Free lathe for a ladder, but the PVC cement I'm using isn't holding the pipe to the lathe. I'm using the blue pvc pipe cement. Is this the wrong cement, and can anyone who has done this method make a recommendation for proper glue. Thanks. Ken Silva


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By avlisk on 15 May 2012 01:24 PM 
I am trying to do the PVC pipe and Rot Free lathe for a ladder, but the PVC cement I'm using isn't holding the pipe to the lathe. I'm using the blue pvc pipe cement. Is this the wrong cement, and can anyone who has done this method make a recommendation for proper glue. Thanks. Ken Silva Are you positive that the lattice product is PVC? Are you using ABS? The pipe AND the lattice strips have to be PVC. I use the Medium Duty Clear Oatey's and it holds great. What kind of temperature environment are you working in? Is it too cold? Could be the problem.Just thinking out load.









EDIT: I forgot, you're living in Phoenix! No temperature problem there!


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmm. Try putting a screw through it.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Well, the Rot Free says it's PVC and to use PVC cement. The pipe is what I used to put in a sprinkler system 2 years ago, and I used the same cement and it's still working OK. The expiry date on the PVC cement says 12/12, so that's good. It's currently a mystery. Although the PVC bottle says "avoid butt joints", and that's what the pipe to lattice joint is. Haven't figured out how to solve this one yet.
Ken Silva


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Are you using the PVC pipe as your spacers? OR are you trying to glue the lattice boards to your VERTICAL PVC pipe? I just glued the spacers, but used a screw to fasten the lattice to the verticals.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/CEHtmlEditorProvider/Load.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);
It's the 45mm long spacer pieces between the 6' long slats. The "rungs of the ladder" if you will. I haven't gotten to attaching to the vertical supports yet. Ken S.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By avlisk on 15 May 2012 02:15 PM 
It's the 45mm long spacer pieces between the 6' long slats. The "rungs of the ladder" if you will. I haven't gotten to attaching to the vertical supports yet. Ken S. 

Ken,

Make sure you sand the butt ends against a disk. Nice and flat for good contact surface to the lattice. Believe me, they will hold. But then, I used the clear stuff, not the blue stuff.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

After multiple, unsuccessful tries to get the PVC pipe to stick to the lattice pieces, I bought some roughly 1.5" square pieces of Rot Free and will try using those sliced into 45mm pieces instead of the pipe. There's more surface area, so it should hold better. Stay tuned. 
Ken Silva


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

I guess I missed something. Using bolts, glue and such is easier then cutting blocks from the same type of PVC boards that you use from the sides, and attaching them with screws is easier..no I don't think so. It looks harder and more time consuming then the way it is done by most, not to mention drawing it all out first.....just do it!

1 afternoon you can do 100-150-200' of 2" PVC ladder board with screws and the most important thing the flower bulb drill bit that fits in most drills that can be bought at any True Value hardware Store. That bit makes drilling a 2' hole a piece of cake..you drill down 1' or so then pound it in the rest of the way to 2'.

IMHO

Bubba


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Hi, Madstang. Thanks for the tip on the flower bulb drill. I'd never heard of that and will look for one for getting the pipe posts into the ground. Regarding the ladder-building, the Lowe's guy said try construction adhesive to build the ladder if the pipe cement doesn't work. I still haven't yet cut up the new, square pvc boards into 45mm pieces, and I'll try the pipe cement on those first, and if unsuccessful, I'll try the construction adhesive. There aren't that many moving parts, as they say, so I should be able to get something to work. The beauty of the square pvc is that it will take screws if none of the adhesives work, so I won't have to buy any more than I already have. 
Ken Silva 
Phoenix, AZ


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

My own personal opinion is always go with a mechanical means to secure a joint instead of an adhesive method. To me glue will eventually fail a screw or nail takes much longer. I used square pvc pieces as my spacers. It made it easy to attach my track to my ladder. Plus I didnt have to wait for glue to dry. I just screwed my ladder together and kept going. 

The bulb drill bit is an excellent idea for getting your posts in the ground.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Hi, jake 3404. So far, the PVC glue seems to be working with the greater surface area to glue to. However, I think I'll add screws, too, just to be extra secure. Don't they glue a lot of jumbo jets together. I think I heard that somewhere. Ken S.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

They Glue Big plastic jumbo jets... :~} 

But trains do not run over them!!! 

... Dirk


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

I've used treated wood as spacers and they lasted for 3 years, now I am in the process of replacing them with PVC blocks...HINT! HINT!

Bubba


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I used spacers cut from the same plastic as the sides of the roadbed. Used 1 3/8" deck screw to hold them together. 
Then used 3" deck screws to mount the ladder to the pipes.








Don


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