# Aster AD 60 4-8-4+4-8-4 Beyer-Garratt



## main131 (Jan 3, 2008)

Just bought one in the UK. Impresive machine or what?
Four cylinders; firing, coal or alcohol; Three safety valves; Two superheater tubes; Two bypass valves; Two axle driven pumps; Two roscoe displacemeny lubricators etc.
This is beast from another planet! If you live in the UK I understand that Aster have two only left. If you want to maximize your life then you know what to do. NOW


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

My kit version is largely complete but I'm still waiting for few parts that were either missing or damaged - see earlier thread. I'd be interested in your experiences running the machine - I'm finding that the exhaust back pressure means I have to leave the exhaust drain valve open for the rear engine. 

Robert


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Too bad it does not come with its Locomotive (closed flue) type boiler and gas fired.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

It has a locomotive type boiler and uses coal or alcohol, (duel fuel) the preferred fuels of Aster customers. why down grade it with gas firing?


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Jeff, someone finally said it.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 18 Jul 2009 07:12 AM 
It has a locomotive type boiler and uses coal or alcohol, (duel fuel) the preferred fuels of Aster customers. why down grade it with gas firing? 

Jeff:

Too bad it does not come with *its







*Locomotive (closed flue) type boiler and gas fired. 

See I knew that











Moving on....

Well if gas was good for Aster's Big Boy it seems like the smaller AD-60 should be able to handle it.
















Dan, 
it's not personal, it's just gas.


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

After all, Gas is more prototypical for American oil fired engines. I may be wrong but I don't know any that used spirit with wicks in the fire box


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

It is the locomotive type boiler which is the prototypical part. You can fire it with coal, meths (alcohol) or with gas, it is all up to you, the user (although Aster often chooses particular two of the three alternatives, for example gas and coal for the C-62) Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Zephyra (Robert)

So far I have found my kit built AD60 fairly free running with no particular problems. Certainly I have not spotted any back pressure issues. I usually start the loco with a not too full boiler and at full 4 bar pressure before opening the regulator, so there is no real problem with cylinder condensate which I thought might be a complication.

I am still finding my way with this loco. After 3 runs we have not found the full potential yet but I am sure that we shall.

The grate is huge for anyone thinking of fitting a gas burner but why bother? If you don’t want alcohol then try your hand at coal! This is a perfect loco for coal firing with a large firebox door. A case of sorting the men from the boys – do you have that expression in the US?

Take a look at the Youtube video


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe I'm trying to be too precise. I have the AD60 on rollers (lots of rollers!) and have been trying to get both engines to run equally well. If both the exhaust/drain valves are shut, then the front engine only will run. If I open the exhaust/drain for the rear engine, then I can get them in balance which is what leads to believe that the exhaust back pressure is a problem for the rear engine given the convoluted pipework the exhaust has to flow through to get to the smoke box. On thr track all seems fine but makes me wonder if the front engine is simply pulling the back along....

I can't imagine why anyone would want to fit a gas burner - she gets up steam very quickly with alcohol. She also uses prodigous amounts of steam and I have to have both axle pumps on fulll to keep the water level in balance but I suspect this will improve as she runs in.

As far as alcohol v coal and men and boys - I'm perfectly happy to classed a boy!

Robert


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By zephyra on 18 Jul 2009 08:52 PM 
I can't imagine why anyone would want to fit a gas burner - she gets up steam very quickly with alcohol. 



Robert, some of the obvious reasons why some prefer gas are
1) Gas s much cheaper than alcohol (in Japan up to factor 10) 
2) Gas is easier to handle
3) Gas is more efficient (caloric efficiency per volume)
4) Gas is safer to use in our locomotives
To me, stove oil used in Japan for portable heaters (perhaps this
is some derivative of paraffin or kerosene?) would seem a better 
option but I have not yet figured how the burners are constructed.
Of course coal is fun, but not when you just want to watch your

locomotive running for half an hour without attending it. Best, Zubi


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## dougiel (Jun 3, 2008)

Robert, have you tried the Garratt on track ?. Remember steam will take the path of least resistance. Try to stop the front engine with your fingers on the rollers. You will probably find the back engine will start. On the rollers there will be very little resistance to the drivers turning so only a small opening of the regulator will make the front engine run. Give it some work to do and a little more throttle and I think both engines will share the work. Its a bit like when a real Garratt loses its feet (slips). The slipping engine hogs all the steam and the loco will come to a stand as the other engine has no steam for drive. 
DougieL


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Robert, 

I recently worked on a customer's 9F that experienced the exact same symptoms that you are describing, that is no operation of the engine unless the drain cocks were open. During disassembly of the 9F, I discovered that the builder had gotten some of the packing compound in the exhaust line and it had partially blocked the smokebox exhaust nozzles. You might want to check out and eliminate that possibility. In the case I worked on, I had to remove the nozzle assembly and "rod it out" to clear the blockage. 

Good luck, 

Ross Schlabach


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi, here in the states the cost of fuel is the other way around. I own all alcohol fired engines and the current price is $5.50 for a US gallon. I purchased some "gas" so I could work on a roundhouse engine and it was $4.59 + tax for a 250g can at walmart. 
I guess that can would yield about 2 hrs of run time, and I can get about 8 hours of run time from a gallon of alcohol. So it depends on where you live and what's available 
Easier to handle ? I use a funnel that cost about 50 cents, not a filler valve that costs $20.00 and then does not work on all types of cans. Alcohol works fine in cold weather. 
Gas is safer? I don't see any "explosive warning labels" on the alcohol containers. They both cause occasional fires and track damage.... gas can claim higher hair loss... hehe 
Running kerosene while being prototypically correct requires putting it under pressure so it can be atomized in the combustion chamber, and it is messy!! I suspect it may be challenging in cold weather??? 
BTW I am only giving another view on your points made.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jeff, I am definitely not trying to generalise the issue of the cost of the fuel. For some reason alcohol/gas ratio in Japan is just insane considering how simple it is to produce alcohol from just about anything (although distilling is a highly energy consuming process). Personally I find gas much easier to handle and much safer to use. I would never use an alcohol fired table stove for example while I regularly use butane fired one (as most people in Japan do) The risk of accidental fire is just too high. But OK, outdoors, what we risk is just the locomotive cab and some track;-) I have seen this happen often enough. I know what you mean about kerosene, but in Japan there are heaters which are used exactly in cold weather, that is when it gets to about 0 Celsius or even;-) below. These stoves are used indoors, there is absolutely nothing messy about the exhaust, they produce very little odour. The older types do not appear to have any electronics in them so I guess if pressurising is required, this must be done with the help of the fuel itself. I need to ask some more knowledgeable people about that. Next week I will talk with Toyoki-san at Aster, I am sure he will enlighten me about this. Best wishes, Zubi


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By dougiel on 19 Jul 2009 01:34 AM 
Robert, have you tried the Garratt on track ?. Remember steam will take the path of least resistance. Try to stop the front engine with your fingers on the rollers. You will probably find the back engine will start. On the rollers there will be very little resistance to the drivers turning so only a small opening of the regulator will make the front engine run. Give it some work to do and a little more throttle and I think both engines will share the work. Its a bit like when a real Garratt loses its feet (slips). The slipping engine hogs all the steam and the loco will come to a stand as the other engine has no steam for drive. 
DougieL 

Thanks - this is exactly what happens. On rollers, if I stop the front engine, the rear one kicks into life. My experiments onthe track have been more limited as I'm still waiting for the reverser reach rod to arrive from Astertogether with sundry other bits and pieces (mainly cosmetic) - I think I must have got the kit that was packed just before they headed out to Golden Week!. I can manually move the reversing gear on rollers separately but this doesn't work too well when out on the track.

Robert


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By RP3 on 19 Jul 2009 05:49 AM 
Robert, 

I recently worked on a customer's 9F that experienced the exact same symptoms that you are describing, that is no operation of the engine unless the drain cocks were open. During disassembly of the 9F, I discovered that the builder had gotten some of the packing compound in the exhaust line and it had partially blocked the smokebox exhaust nozzles. You might want to check out and eliminate that possibility. In the case I worked on, I had to remove the nozzle assembly and "rod it out" to clear the blockage. 

Good luck, 

Ross Schlabach 

Funnily enough, I had the same problem on the 9F I built and found the blast pipe was blocked by flux/solder. I heated it with a blow torch while one end was attached to an air compressor and it blew clear. Aster also supplied a replacement.

Robert


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## tony23 (Jan 2, 2008)

I just noticed that the Garrett in the picture has Aster written on the pressure gauge I have not seen these for years are they old stock?


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tony23 on 19 Jul 2009 01:35 PM 
I just noticed that the Garrett in the picture has Aster written on the pressure gauge I have not seen these for years are they old stock? 
I was told that this batch of AD60s was put to together from spares that Aster had lying around from the frist run as the demand for spares was very low as most were "shelf queens". not sure why this should apply to the pressure gauges but maybe that explains the retro look.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jeff, I already have some info. These stoves burn kerosene, and they use wicks. No pressurisation. They are extremely clean, I do not understand why this would not work in locomotive type boilers. But this is for another thread if anyone is interested. Best, Zubi 
PS info: http://www.endtimesreport.com/kerosene_heaters.html 
wicks: http://www.milesstair.com/photo_album.html


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

It is true that originally the 2009 run of AD60's was to be from 'spare' parts from the original production. However, interest was so strong that virtually everything was remade from the 1991 drawings. 

Now, may I politely ask the folks who want to discuss alternative fuels for our models to start a new Thread? Thank you.


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## main131 (Jan 3, 2008)

It's all gone a bit quiet on this thread. Was it something that someone said?
Anyway (to conclude?) and to answer zephyra 's original question regarding our own experiences on running the engine.
We would suspect a blockage on the exhaust circuit, possibly from sealant application. 
Our AD60 has no problem with back pressure, in fact we don't find it necessary to open the vents except for the initial firing phase.
One change we have made is to fit a stainless steel arch in the firebox, this we believe improves the combustion and raises the steam temperatures to the rear engine.
This may not however account for the problem experienced.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

i think the answer to my problem was expressed in a previous posting - I am expecting too much to get even running between the two engines on rollers. Rollers offer no resisitance and it easy for one engine to 'hog' all the steam - I'll try on the track just as soon as the replacement reverser reach rod and a few other bits and pieces arrive from Aster.....


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## ati3414 (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, the Aster Beyer-Garratt is a wonderful locomotive. Unfortunately, due to the current economy, I have to part with mine (and with all my other Aster locomotives). They can be seen here, on my website: http://asfarti.tripod.com/index-10.html


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

WOW! Zombie thread alert!


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