# Track Pan's



## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Check this out.Who will make one for there K-4 or T- 1 ,You know the T-1 will be here in 6 weeks.End of May

http://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/xmp523">[url="New York Central Railroad Track Pans _by [url="p00p4breakfast_


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Thanks Bob, 
One of those wonderful parts of the steam era. 
I am afraid that I am not that familiar with North American railroad practice as to how the lowering of the scoops was done. 
I know in the UK, it was very much a mechanical event, to which the fireman had to get the timing of lowering, and raising, just right. 
Although I gather the L&NWR had a clever system, where they actually lowered the tracks in relation to the water trough (pan) so the scoop was always available. 
As to model practice, funny but we were discussing this at Dan's at our last steam up and I reckoned that since water can't be 'scaled', it would probably not work very well. 
BUT, let's hope someone tries it so that we can find out for sure. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

David is very right about the importance of timing in lowering and raising the scoop. I rather suspect that in the 4-4-0 era the scoops were operated manually, but they were equipped with air cylinders when locomotives and tenders got bigger. In early times the train had to slow to 45 mph when taking water because the water rushing into the tank compressed the air in the tank to pressure enough to cause serious damage. Eventually blowoff arrangements were fitted to the tenders so that scooping at 80 mph was feasible. At that speed the fireman had to be super careful to time lowering and raising just right. And each pan required elaborate maintenance, typically with an attendant 24/7 and heating to prevent freezing in cold weather. Pans were very tricky and expensive to operate. 

Trying to get a small-scale track pan setup to work properly would be a monumental task. The pan would have to be dead level for its length. An elaborate plumbing system with multiple filling points would have to be built and maintained. And how the scoop would be operated is an intriguing question. It would take a dedicated masochist to attempt such a project.


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

David and Reg,Here is a easer way to go.I made a working water column.You will see SteamTom 1 taking on water with his Duchess and David Leech Coaches


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## nsimpson (Mar 15, 2010)

Now, that's called laying down the gauntlet....!!!! I think I will have to get on it immediately for my K4.... I was part of the steam-up at Dan's that David referred to so I will have lots of help and suggestions.... The dead level track is already in place, and plumbing is no problem as it rains constantly here. The scoop willl be a different story but creativity abounds, if only in our minds....! Cheers, Neil.


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## nsimpson (Mar 15, 2010)

I forgot about the masochism - that's a given...!!


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

My knowledge of track pans relates to the NYC. An older friend when I was a kid several decades ago came from a family of NYC engineers. Had the Depression not caused layoffs and frozen hiring he would have gone into engine service at Syracuse, and he made me a serious fan of the Hudsons and Niagras. How anyone could prefer a T-1 to a Niagra or a K-4s to a J1e is beyond me. 

Whether the Pennsy had pans where the T-1s operated is an interesting question. I gather that they were on the NY-Wash main line, but can anyone advise whether they were used west of Philadelphia? Of course electrification in the mid-'30s meant that the pans on the Broad Way were redundant, and I suspect that they were removed as soon as feasible. Between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh seems a little too non-level for pans, and whether Pennsy found their cost worthwhile west of Pittsburgh I rather doubt. The NYC only had them on the high-traffic eastern part of the Water Level Route. 

Hoping to fill the pan with rain is perhaps Utopian. One real-life problem was that, when the Twentieth Century Limited ran in two, three, or four sections the pans had to refill in a minute or two to serve the following sections as well as the first. This took a lot of plumbing to accomplish. As much as I wish I'd been around to see the Central in its steam prime, it's painfully obvious why NYC management saw the Electro-Motive E-7 as a Godsend. And remember that the fast steamers had to have their rods removed, cleaned, and inspected for fatigue cracks monthly, requiring much time and labor. But wouldn't we have loved to have ridden the Century when an inspector had flunked the Es and a Niagra had gotten a chance to show her stuff?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

and then of course in the winter, you will be scooping up 'ice cubes'! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 
Where, as far as I can find out, there were never any water pans in use.


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

Right, David. Another requirement was that the pans had to be heated in subfreezing weather. Whee!


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

The scoop could be dropped and raised by a solinoid and activated by magnets between the ties.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Thank you Dan, for volunteering to do the experiment. 
Will you have it ready to show us at Stavers in two weeks time? 
I'll bring by rain gear to witness it in action. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

The big roads were not the only ones to use track pans. The CNJ had a track pan east of Bound Brook NJ. Eastbound Reading, and possibly B &O and CNJ Pacifics, used it up to the end of steam there in the early '50's. My Dad and I learned not to take pictures near the end of the pan-we got soaked at least once when water started coming out of the tender overflows. Decades later, the brick pumphouse for this was still standing, well into second-generation diesel days. 

Larry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Not being an engineer, either steam locomotive or hydraulic, I seriously doubt that any of your "G" Gauge engines would go fast enough to push the water up into the tender. I'd love to be proven wrong and watch the experiment, but I don't think it would work.

Sadly,

Chuck


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

On a simple live steam track with no switches, you could eliminate the pan's ends and use elevation of the rails to drop the scoop into the pans as they slope down to level. Once you have functioning scoops you can think about raising and lowering the scoop and waterproofing them. The pans would be at a lower elevation than the loop. The scoops can remain down all the time. 

John


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## general1861 (Jan 22, 2010)

So,,How did they keep the track guage in standard....


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

The information is dated (c. 1889), but I thought it might be of interest.

Catechism of the Locomotive - Chapter XXII - Tenders (PDF 1.15MB)[/b]


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## general1861 (Jan 22, 2010)

that was interesting steve about the chute and tender..How was the tracks on that section of road kept in guage if the sleepers were not one solid piece going across, assuming that is how they built it?. The trough mj


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

As far as I know the cross-ties were still one piece, the tray/pan/trough weren't very deep and were let-in to the ties as required; so I would imagine that if needed the ties where they were installed may very well have been thicker than regular to compensate.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The water pan was not just inserted in a section of track, displacing the ties or splitting them, on the typical roadbed. 

The whole length of track at that location was dug out and a stable and very sturdy structure was built under it to support the track pan, the water pipes to it, the steam heating pipes to run in the bottom of the pan to keep the water from freezing in winter and to hold the rails in gauge, as well as drainage systems around it to handle overflow (notwithstanding the photos that show puddles of water all over the place!).

Hitting that much water at high speed creates all kinds of forces on the train and the track, that tends to twist, push and pull on the rails. Without a substantial structure below it, the track would not hold up at all.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Have you ever driven your car into a large puddle in the street and felt the braking forces that occur! And if the puddle is only on one side, have you noticed how much the car pulls to that side. Now, contemplate doing it at 80 MPH!


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 15 Apr 2012 11:43 AM 
Have you ever driven your car into a large puddle in the street and felt the braking forces that occur! And if the puddle is only on one side, have you noticed how much the car pulls to that side. Now, contemplate doing it at 80 MPH! As a matter of fact C.T. yes I have, including the 80 m.p.h. part.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

As long as you don' turn the traction control off, it's no problem.


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

Larry Green is quite right about the CNJ-Reading-B&O pans. Recall that their Jersey City-Washington Royal Blue Line was the Pennsy's competetion, so they had to do things right in a big way to attract business when competing with The Standard Railroad of the World. And scooping water could be messy, especially if the scoop wasn't raised soon enough. I recall reading that this was a serious problem on trains with a Railway Post Office car behind the tender. Excess water would get into the roof vents and soak the US Mail, and Uncle Sugar would have a hissy.


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

Larry Green is quite right about the CNJ-Reading-B&O pans. Recall that their Jersey City-Washington Royal Blue Line was the Pennsy's competetion, so they had to do things right in a big way to attract business when competing with The Standard Railroad of the World. And scooping water could be messy, especially if the scoop wasn't raised soon enough. I recall reading that this was a serious problem on trains with a Railway Post Office car behind the tender. Excess water would get into the roof vents and soak the US Mail, and Uncle Sugar would have a hissy.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

In Britain, from this movie, it 'appears' that the troughs were just added on top of the regular ties. 
Mind you, the whole track may be on top of something more substantial! 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nationonfilm/topics/railways/ 
Scroll down (or search) for "Laying the Troughs - Water Troughs (1950/b&w/silent)" 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well it would be an interesting concept to try to model. For now I have a couple of water tanks that I can pull up to and give me a refill. Later RJD


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's a few more snippits of information on track tanks.









MoW Cyclopedia c. 1921 - Track Tanks (PDF 142KB)[/b]


Lake Shore & Michigan Railway - Track Tank & Water Scoop c. 1900 (PDF 355KB)[/b]


Proceedings of AREA - Water Supply c. 1913 (PDF 7.39MB)[/b]


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