# Which DCC controller to use???????????



## GnTRailroad (Apr 3, 2009)

Hello,

My wife told me this morning that she wanted to get me set up with DCC control for my trains, a 25 year wedding anniversary present. I have no idea what is good and what to stay away from! 
Most of my engines are Bachmann and I have one Lionel and two Aristo's I just don't know what or how to get started! She wanted to spend around $500.


Thanks,
George


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## GnTRailroad (Apr 3, 2009)

I want to stay with track power!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

George, can you tell us a bit more about yourself? How many locos will you EVENTUALLY have, how big will the layout be eventually, do you have friends come over to run also? 

I usually recommend Digitrax and NCE. There are nice systems much higher priced, and there are entry level systems lower priced. I think the major decisions should focus around features desired, and how you like the hand held throttles. 

Regards, Greg


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## GnTRailroad (Apr 3, 2009)

I will probably have around 10 locomotives when done. I have about 300 foot of track probably will be about the extent of the layout! I do have a son that will come over and run with me probably talking about two hand helds and only run two trains at a time! I wnat to buy what is good now so I am not unhappy later!


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## GnTRailroad (Apr 3, 2009)

So for a handheld what about the DT400?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep a good choice... I run NCE, I liked the additional controls on the Pro Cab... I would definitely go with either of the two... the Massoth and Lenz and Zimo stuff is a bit to a lot more. The Massoth system looks good, but the prices are darn high, and it does not do everything I like. 

I need good, expandable wireless, so a wireless system with multiple base stations to cover outdoors was a must.. I also consist a lot, and the Pro Cab's consisting controls are right there on the throttle. 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

you can get a Super Chief DSC200 8 amp with radio for about $500 but you have to BYO power supply. It needs 24 to 26 volts DC or 22 volts AC at 10+ amps each. This one will run 2 or 3 pretty heavy trains at a time. If you want more juice, then NCE provides a larger booster but at higher cost. 

5 amp Digitrax decoders are about $55. If you want sound, then go with a QSI magnum at $127 in plug-n-play or $17 more for the screw terminal adaptor. 

The Euro systems are good, but very much more expensive. 

Try MPJA.com. They have a 24 volt DC, 12.5 amp supply for $25. 

Look to http://www.litchfieldstation.com as a source, prices are at least as low as anybody and a reliable supplier.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

George, I just wouldn't say the "European Systems are good....". To be fair they are excellent. And I always have to revert back to the Automobile industry, you can't compare a Chevrolet with a BMW, and I choose this obvious example because even if they would build optically the same car it wouldn't be the same und you drive one and you know. The only common thing is that they get you from point A to point B.

So Zimo's electronic (Motor under the hood) is one of the best in the market, ultra stabilized outputs, a Auto Reversing unit is already included, future proof (and that for more than 10 years now - all technicals update including Railcom were accomplished without any system upgrades and future ones will be too). But this of course is under the hood, If we now go to the dashboard (handhelds) than the Zimo handheld is in a league of its own. Some of the features actaully are based on the central station although they manifest themselves in the handheld. One example is that oyu can control 8 switches from one single address. Why is this important. Let us assume you have 2 stations with sidings and 1 switching yard and each has 8 switches than you might have to recall a switch address out of a circular buffer 23 times before you get to the address you needed. I have for my three stations only two address each and I have (Similar to locomotive consists) linked the second address to the first for "double-heading" now I have to recall 1 out of 3 addresses and my switch operation is availbel on F1 to F8 with optical feedback over tri-color LEDs red/green for the switch position (the third color is for on/off functions on locomotives). Let me tell you when I started that feature wasn't yet available in the handheld, and going round-robin recalling can be a pain in the neck.

So the devil is in the detail Here is another one, if you are interested in sound and some detailed control of your engine 12 functions are very often not enough. I typically have alread 9-10 sound functions leaving me only 2 (lights on/off and cabin lighton/off or smoke on/ff) but other extra frunctions, such as decouple, strobe lights, other light function, other special operations modes will fall short. Zimo offer 20 functions F0 - F19. Now you will comfortably be able to address all Loco functions, as well all the associated sond.

Because appreciation comesa with usage that's why we offer free trial of the ZIMO systems. Here you can see for yourself how it works, how it feels, and how you like it.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I would agree that the European systems have many features, and are of high quality. You have to decide how much you want to pay. Keep in mind you may buy a cheaper system now and wish for more later.


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## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

GnTRailroad, 

Check around your area & see what the other RR's are using.. It helps to have other people close by with experience with your system.. Makes it easier to solve problems.. Example, most RR's in my area are NCE or Digitrax owners, with a few MRC's.. 

BulletBob


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Bob that is good advice, converting to DCC is not real easy for most, having some support close by would be of great value.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

After visiting with some makers of DCC I choose the wireless NCE system. I liked the features and the read out on the cab. The cab has a nice screen which makes for an easy to read for us folks with poor vision. I can read it with out using my glasses. I looked at Masouth and others but screens just to small and the price was way out of sight. It's a breeze to use and do not have to use the program track 99% of the time. This has been one of the easiest transitions for me compaired to using a computer. Later RJD


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## GnTRailroad (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks RJD,

You bring up a great point as the eyes are not getting better for reading, I don't like wearing my reading glasses outside. What is your DCC setup can you give me more info? Power, controller and such!

Thanks,
George


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## GnTRailroad (Apr 3, 2009)

I went to my local hobby store and actually ran the NCE and the DigiTrax I really like the NCE with wireless It is a nice controller and I really like the controller screen I can read!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

George, R.J. (and I) run NCE. The way DCC systems work there is a Command Station (makes the commands), a Power Supply (AC or DC, depends), a Booster (adds the commands to the power). You have hand held throttles, and if they are wireless, you need a radio base station (or more than one if you are covering a really big area).. 

Depending on which system you buy, your power supply can be AC or DC, but I recommend a regulated DC power supply, and to get the 10 amp NCE system. So you need a 10 Amp 24-27 volt DC power supply, nothing less. RJ uses an Aristo Elite, I use a generic switching power supply from Meanwell. You can go on my site under Electronics and then under DCC and read a few things, "My Implementation" shows the actual stack of electronics. 

Regards, Greg


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## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

GnTRailroad, 

@ the hobby shop did you ask the owner which DCC system he sold the most?? Also did you ask if there is a club locally & what they are running?? The scale of the club is not an issue.. If there is club I would try to get an invite so I could watch the system in use.. If there is no club may be the owner could get you an invite to see a layout that is using DCC.. 

BulletBob


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

It really does not matter which DCC system the hobby dealer sells the most of. It what you want and not what he try's to sell you if you know a litttle about what your getting into and what you want. I Just like the features as I mentioned because I also do not like using my reading glasses out side and NCE had the bill to fit my needs. And the wireless system is fantastic with great range. ater RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I also have to take minor exception to asking the hobby shop what they sell the most of. Some hobby shops are experts, and many just have one brand there because it is what the local HO club uses. We have one real train store in San Diego. They have a layout in the store with Digitrax. It is never running, the throttles are not out for display, and most of the people who work there don't know anything about it. 

So, it depends, this is not a knock on your statement Bob, but just to consider all inputs. 

Also, I have to say that the requirements of large scale are a bit different than HO. Of course ANY hobby shop will sell DCC to mostly HO. But some HO systems are inappropriate for large scale, like infrared wireless does not work in the sun! 

Few HO layouts are as big as many LS layouts so wireless coverage is an issue to carefully consider. 

So, whatever the LHS sells the most of may have almost nothing to do with suitability for LS. 

That said, ask them, and I most wholeheartedly agree go to a local club and SEE the operation, (although again, the scale could be an issue for the aforementioned reasons). 

Regards, Greg


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

well that sound like a slam to hobby shops as a whole .........



digitrax has a dealer training program to get the hobby shops up to speed and most have a expert that may only work one or two days a week ..... also i am sure that the hobby shop will carry what ever is used most in your area 


for me digitrax is the easyest to use and most expandable to what you need ..... we are a NCE dealler as well but our area and clubs are all digitrax so it is what I mostly sell 


we have 6 layouts in the large scale club that are digitrax DCC and all run very well 


but I agree you should not be a lone wolf with a system no one else in your area has ..... as we could all use a little help for time to time when you first get a system running


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No it's not a slam Scott.. Sparring for a fight again? come on... I said "some" and then gave one specific experience. We are in a hobby shop wasteland here in San Diego, and cannot understand why. 

You reinforce what I said, and the clubs you mention are of course all HO or N, right? 

Just trying to broaden the horizons... as we all know, not every person in the hobby you talk to is an expert, even if they think they are, so you talk to more people. 

Regards, Greg


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

not sparing just don't want hobby shops to get a bad rap ......

the clubs ar 5 HO 1 N 1 G all use digitrax and there are a lest 2 doz digitrax home layouts and only 3 NCE


and to defend hobby shops as a whole it is hard to know everything about every product and everything coming out ...... on dcc we have sent almost every employee we have to the digitrax training ... 



when you first start out there is always questions and I still think you should always run with the crowd


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## veejo (Apr 16, 2009)

I've got NCE for my HO set, and getting DCC for HO is so easy, I don't know why anybody would bother with just plain power for HO, and it's not a big investment (eg NCE power cab for a starter set). BUT G scale is a different ball game, 24V not 12V, need larger booster and power supply, decoders cost more (higher current, less choice). I'II get there eventually, just need to research more about DCC on G scale to avoid costly mistakes, and the booster and power supply is the fisrt area to nail, as I already have an NCE power can for my HO. .


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

click once and walk away ......










that is one of the nice things about digitrax is that it has a switch for outgoing voltage so the same unit can be used for N,Hr G I have several people intown that use there system on both HO and G I even sell extra plugs so it is just plug and play


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Scott, I do everything I can do to support the LHS - I have bought many things at full retail from ours. I gave up when subsequent visits had no new items, there were literally "holes" on the shelves where the cars I had bought used to be. This is over a period of FIVE years. I have definitely done my part to support them, and I think you need to relax.

I know you work for a hobby shop (although they did not list your name on the site, but everyone else's.. strange *[url]http://www.trainswest.com/page6.html*[/url] )... but you really are defending something that does not need defense. Good hobby shops are frequented and make money, poor ones go out of business. When I am in Albuquerque, I will be sure to look you up and spend $$ there. 

Thanks for the statistics on the clubs and types of systems sold, that is interesting information. I have had several people tell me Digitrax is more aggressive in getting clubs to use their equipment, i.e. club discounts, do you know this to be true?

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I have a lot of experience with Digitrax, some experience with NCE, none with other systems (but I have decoders from almost everybody). As far as the systems go, both Digitrax and NCE work fine, but there are differences. 

Throttle layout. Digitrax and NCE and both similar and different. They both use an array of buttons and a small display. Digitrax's buttons are layed out in a grid, NCE's are spread around to make their positions more unique. NCE's buttons are larger and better for those with really fat fingers. The NCE throttle can handle one loco at a time, Digitrax can handle two. One operator can get pretty busy trying to keep track of two trains a once, but having two trains on the throttle is helpful at times. Both can be operated with one hand and without looking at the throttle much. Digitrax tends to require fewer keystrokes to drive turnouts (if the layout is so wired) but NCE is easy enough. The NCE has a slightly larger display with most information displayed in large text. Digitrax tends to cram more info on the display, much of it in the form of icons or smaller text in specific locations. After a while, you learn just where to look to see the info that you want and you don't have to read much of anything. Advantange : wash 

Radio. NCE uses a two way radio system so that the throttle and command station are always in two way communication. Digitrax currently uses a one way RF link so that doing SOME things requires that the throttle be plugged in. However, the one way link is less expensive. There is a two way Digitrax throttle coming out "real soon now." Both systems use trackside receivers that can be installed in multiple locations as necessary to achieve total area coverage. Advantage : NCE 

Network. Both systems interconnect their components with a network of some kind. NCE uses a polling configuration, Digitrax uses a peer to peer configuration. The Digitrax LocoNet is completely self configuring and very easily expandable. Advantage : Digitrax 

Current capability. The largest Digitrax booster is the DSC200 at 8 amps. However, it's output voltage sags as the current increases and it is really only good for 2 or maybe 3 large scale trains. Digitrax recommends dividing the layout into power districts and adding more boosters as the current needs increase. This works better in HO that it does in large scale. NCE provides a 10 amp booster that holds it's output voltage better at high loads but it's trip current is very high so that one must pay careful attention to the track feeders or the booster may not trip during a fault which could result in a smoky sensation. Advantage : NCE 

Overall usuability. Both systems work well, both have limitations. Advantage : wash 

Cost: Digitrax is considerably less expensive than NCE. Advantage : Digitrax.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

No one is taking aim at hobby shops but how many can you walk into and see more than one DCC system on demo. In all my years this number is O. Your lucky to see one and yes it is usually Digitrax but here as mentioned they seem to be a bit more aggressive in promoting there product. I also have heard they will give a discount to clubs and such to use there system. Maybe one should take a little inititive and explore the other systems. Thats what I did to come up with what works for me. I can see why you sell more Digitrax than others as that what you promote the most. Later RJD


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi RJ, Greg, and everybody. I agree with RJ about shops usually only having one system set up. But, if you are ever up near Burlington, VT go to Tony's Trains. They have all the different DCC system available and you can test them out. For me the only problem was that I was so ignorant on DCC I couldn't tell a lot of the subtle differences that you get from either having a lot of Tron knowledge or experience running the system. I was for my abilityy at the time able to meke thge correct decision for me and purchased the NCE wireless system. I have been very happy with it and am looking forward to laying more track and turnouts and using my DCC to control all.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Back when I worked at a hobby shop (not train store) when DCC was relatively new we carried the NCE stuff but no one in the store really knew much about it. I've not worked there in many years now but ona visit this past wekend there was darn little DCC stuff on display (sigh) I believe some MRC and maybe some NCE? As i was not interested and my time was short I did not look closely. The sad thing for me was to see what was an aisle of HO scale trains one side of which used to be Athearn kits and locos stacked high and deep was angled shelves with a few things on it. The selction of HO track was slim as well. O Gauge was booming and had taken over what was the G gauge aisle. G-Gauge was half an aisle of aristo brass track and starter sets (all Aristo Christmas) and a showcase with a mix of 50/50 locos to cars and some accesories. Beign an hour or so away from RRS and two hours for Whiolesale trains and the opposite end of the state from TW has certainly put a dent in their sales. There are a few small scale train stores in that area as well that may be better versed in DCC but I've not been to them in years because they did not cater to the LS trains and were in general the rude old guys that frowned on window shoppers with lots of questions. 

Chas 

P.S. Scott I was NOT aiming ANY of that to you at all. I've not found you to be rude or of bad character in any of your postings. As a younger hobbiest most of my life I've gone & spent money where I was welcomed without spending money first. in ym small home town there used to be 2 sotres that catered to teh hobbiest and when i inherited my uncles old slot car set I was lookign for new cars and parts. one sotre was run by the grunpiest old guy ever and as I became an adult I understood why the other had a nice old lady who let me look forever at the cars and parts and answered my questions if she could. If not she found the answers for me. Where do you think I shopped? Later in life the old lady passed away and that shop closed and the grumpy old man retired and sold the store to someone else whom I had the pleasure of working for briefly after college. Customer service is VERY important in our hobby and VERY difficult to acheive in a HOBBY SHOP. They tend NOt to specialize in anything beyond the interests of the hobby the owners or managers are active in.

I am following this thread as I too am interested in pros and cons of the individual systems. I appreciate GReg's and Georges continued service to the LS train hobby in general and in specific where DCC stuff is concerned. they both have shared their experiences with everyone freely and continue to do so. Thanks gentleman. All of you for providing us so much.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

man I am going to get better with the smileys ...... I took some offence to the quip about hobby shops but I did not take as much as all this warrants


I do know that the cost of model railroading keeps going up and I do sometimes wonder if in the long run anyone will be able to afford it .......



sorry I derailled the thread


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

greg


my name is Scott Warren Hatch 

I helped open the store and am always around in some way ........ once in a while I run away and make some real money ........ but if the store needs help I am there ..... blood is thicker then water 


if you want to check call some time I am there most of the time tues thru fri


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just checking... thanks for the info Scott. I was actually curious since I could tell you were closely involved with the store. I am sure I will happen by the store some day and will make it a point to drop in, say hi and BUY something. 

From the viewing and reading the Trans West website, I sure wish you could have a store in San Diego... it is pitiful here, and I don't know why because we have a large Garden Railway society, and the weather is perfect for G scale outdoors, track or battery power. There are a lot of LGB enthusiasts here also, and one of the Walthers people lives here, and is in another club I am in. 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg: 

Send them all to the Ontario show and if they email us before hand we will send them a discount coupon.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

By the way Axel, I would love to evaluate a system, should you have a "demo" unit you could loan me. I will be at the Ontario show. 

Regards, Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm just posting on this old thread... Ahh the good old days of G!

George and BulletBob on the forum, I miss those guys.

Greg 874


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Just checking... thanks for the info Scott. I was actually curious since I could tell you were closely involved with the store. I am sure I will happen by the store some day and will make it a point to drop in, say hi and BUY something.
> 
> From the viewing and reading the Trans West website, I sure wish you could have a store in San Diego... it is pitiful here, and I don't know why because we have a large Garden Railway society, and the weather is perfect for G scale outdoors, track or battery power. There are a lot of LGB enthusiasts here also, and one of the Walthers people lives here, and is in another club I am in.
> 
> Regards, Greg


Greg, were you calling Ron G a Walthers Guy?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, I seem to remember he worked for Walthers, besides LGB etc.

Greg


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