# Research of Historical buildings



## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm finnally starting to research a couple of historical buildings that no longer exist in the town of Redmond, Washington that were railroad owned, or railroad served. I've been in contact with the local historical society, and the county archives and am waiting to here back with my request. My question is what tools have you used to research buildings, etc that no longer exist. One of the buildings will certainly be easier because it's a former NP depot, and the NP historical society have available engineering drawings of various structures. The other building was a local feed store that was built in sometime in the 1930's. I've only located a few grainy photographs of each, but I'll see what happens.
http://www.redmondhistoricalsociety...Itemid=186
http://www.redmondhistoricalsociety...Itemid=186

Here's some more links. In the first one the Redmond depot is in the foreground, and T& D Feeds is in the background. This would be looking North-east
http://content.lib.washington.edu/c...&REC=5
And this one photo is looking south, but I'm not to sure. And I think the feed store is behind the photographer.
http://content.lib.washington.edu/c...&REC=4

One more question. What kind of railroad cars do feed mills use? Cover hoppers, and boxcars? I remember seeing cover hoppers at T& D feeds, but don't recall seeing any boxcars.
Craig


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## Terl (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig 

When the feed mill was built in the 30's, grain probably arrived in boxcars. When covered hoppers became more widespread (the 50s?) grain probably also came in covered hoppers. Shipments out probably went out mainly in trucks and maybe boxcars. Try a Sandborn Insurance map for a reasonable plan view. Maybe contact the local library. Ask around see if you can talk to people who worked there that are still alive. Are there any footings in place left? Is there a local newspaper? They might have pictures or information. 

Terl


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

In Canada, covered hoppers did not come into general use for grain until the mid 70s. Boxcars, especially single sheathed outside braced cars were used widely with grain doors inserted until covered hoppers became universal. The American context saw covered hoppers a bit earlier but certainly grain boxcars were still in use into the early 70s as covered hoppers became more abundant.

Regards ... Doug


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm modeling 1970 so I assumed that some grain shipments were still in boxcars. If I remember correctly this feed mill shipped out to the local farms by truck, so they only recieved inbound shipments, althought it would seem logical that an occasional load would be sent out. My idea was to have spot a mix of 40' boxcars, and covered hoppers. I did find an aerial photograph of downtown Redmond taken in 1969 that barely shows T & D Feeds, and from the picture it looks as if they have spotted a 2 bay covered hopper, and a 50' car either boxcar, or hopper. I'll have to see what 
Growing up in the area I wish I would have taken photo's of the place before it was torn down. Now all that exists is a large hole in the ground. I think my best source of information is the Washington state archives. I'm waiting to here back from them, but they have records of building permits, construction plans sometimes, and building footprint and an occassional photograph. It'll be interesting to see what I can find. From the pictures I have now, and my failing memory I could make a semi-accurate model, but I want a little more detail. 
How do you get Sandborn Insurance map? 
Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

If you've got a King county library card you could try this. Scroll down to the 'S' section then click the Sanborn Maps link.

KCLS Database Access[/b]


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I went looking for the location of where I obtained my interest in steam locomotives... (a bus station in Seymour, Indiana in 1949 where one "jumped out" from behind the bus station blowing its whistle and scared this little 3 and a half year old "airborne" into Granddad's lap!). 

I went to the Jackson County library in Seymour and they had "fire insurance maps" (or some such thing) on microfilm reels. 

These maps were not very well done. They were "neat", and I suppose accurate, but it appeared to me that someone took a large piece of paper and went to various street corners, faced some arbitrary direction and sketched on the paper the streets and businesses that could be seen. Then they went to some other corner and faced again some random direction and on some other section of the same sheet of paper drew the scene before them. One of the streets might be the same as the previous drawing, but on the paper it might be at any angle compared to the other. There would even be some overlap in the various drawings on the single sheet of paper.

These maps were drawn about every 7 years. Unfortunately for my particular quest, the one that should have been made in 1949 was missing, so I only got some hints of where things were. But it was interesting to note that the RR's seemed to build sidings for businesses as needed and if the business left, so did the siding! I could see a siding in one area and the next map it would be gone, but there would be another one on the opposite side of the mainline. Then on the next map that one would also be gone and another added a few blocks away.

I spent some time interviewing folk that might know where the Bus station was, but memory being what it is, I seemed to create more arguments about it and whether it was over "where the Dairy Queen used to be", or what they tore down to build the old grocery store that is now the furniture shop..."No, that burned down." "No it didn't that was the cleaners." "No the cleaners are still there and it was never a Dairy Queen."

More people remembered the "new" bus station which I am sure was not built when my memorable incident occurred.


I also read several history books on the area. I knew that the weather on my memorable occasion (also known to be a Friday) was hot and rainy so I got microfilm of the newspaper for the year I figured it had to have been and looked for the weather reports. I was able to narrow it down to one of 3 dates, but my quest failed when I could not prove the building I found (just out driving around) that looks right (and some later claimed was a bus station at one time), ever had a RR track behind it (daing missing map!).

Good luck in your quest. Check the local library. And have fun looking at newspaper articles, too. I spent HOURS reading the headlines and major articles from 1949-1950 (learned all kinds of interesting stuff!). I was also able to prove it was not the "NEW" bus station (now a realtor's office) since it was not opened until after any of the dates the incident had to have occurred on.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Steve, 
I've got a King County library card too. I found some information, but the map they have is 1926-1930 when I believe the T & D Feeds moved accross the railroad tracks. From the maps it looks like the depot moved too. But not enough information, but worthwhile. 
Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

You most likely have already got the following, but on the outside chance you don't here are some links I ran across.

Grange Co-Operative Co., Redmond ca. 1895[/b]

Redmond Depot - Interior ca. 1913[/b] 

Redmond Depot ca. 1960[/b] 

Redmond Depot ca. 1970[/b]

Have you tried the... they say that they've got thousands of photographs.

Eastside Heritage Center[/b]

Walking tour pamphlet T & D Feeds page 17, item 23.

Redmond Historical Walking Tour Brochure (PDF format 2.2MB)[/b]


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Steve, 
Those are the few links that started me on my search. I contacted the Eastside Heritage Center a while ago, and they were the ones who put me in touch with the state archive office. I also contacted the Redmond Historical society too. 
From the pictures I've found it looks like the Redmond Depot was moved, or lowered at some point in its history. If you look at the first photo of the Redmond depot notice how high the platform is in relation to the ground level. In the more recent photo's the depot has no platform, but the loading dock in the 1970's photo seems to suggest the original platform height. Also the location of the depot, or the railroad tracks seems to move in the Sanborn maps. 
When I first started researching this project I was trying to decide what era to model, or more specifically what year. Now I now the Redmond Depot was torn down sometime after 1970, most likely in '72 from a newspaper article headline I found. I've got to make a trip to the Redmond library to read the article, but hopefully it will lead to some more clues. Because I want to model the early BN days I've narrowed the years to between '70 and '72. 
Isn't prototypical modeling fun? 
This is what I like about modeling- the research and building part! 
Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

Yes sir, I also really enjoy doing research on different topics. One thing that I've discovered is that since railroads were such an integral part of the development of our country it's intertwined with just about every aspect that you can imagine, which takes one in many unexpected directions.









While I realize that the following doesn't directly relate to your current research on T & D Feeds, I figure that they might be of interest to you anyway.

The following USGS maps are really good for there detail regarding the placement of the railroads. They are however, a bit different than the more modern quadrangle maps that are 7 1/2' x 7 1/2', because these older maps are 30' x 30'.

The link below will take you to the USGS Topo Map Index, where you can click on the respective named maps (see below list) covering the Redmond area. After clicking the desired map on the index. When the screen refreshes, click the map link. When the next page displays, click the link to the right of the label 'View Map Image:' After the next page displays you can use the tools on the map (i.e. scroll down to see the instructions) to enlarge and navigate the map. There is also a link where you can download the MrSID map file if you want, that is if you have the room on your system to do so. The other thing is, to view the MrSID map off-line you'll need to download and install the MrSID browser plug-in, no big deal but required.

Washington State University - Digital Library
USGS 30' Quadrangle Maps for Washington State[/b]
Snohomish - 1895
Sultan - 1921
Tacoma - 1909
Cedar Lake - 1913

The following is an interesting reference for any one interested in the BNSF railroad, and any of the respective railroads that were any part of any railroad that was part of any of the mergers, acquisitions, reorganizations that ever took place leading up to the current BNSF existence.

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association
BNSF Track Segments Reference v9
File Type: PDF - File Size: 3.9MB
Left-click to open - Right-click to download[/b]

The following is another photograph of the redmond station taken in 1963 by J.M. Fredrickson. It is very similar in orientation, to the one pointed to in the above reply taken in 1970. However, this one shows a bit more of the right end of the T & D Feeds buildings.










Well that's it for now, when I run across something else that's interesting I'll update the topic. Hope I don't bore ya.


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

I have had great success with Sanborn Maps. The maps in our area are amazingly detailed and accurate. These are maps prepared for insurance company rating purposes. Older maps are now in the public domain and are often available through University or State libraries for a small copying charge. The maps in our area were drawn every 5 to 7 years. The maps supplied tremendous detail such as the number of windows, type of material the building was constructed of, and if it had a boiler or other machinery inside. Many maps name the specific use of the building. The maps here told me that a small outbuilding had changed use from a Railroad electrical repair shop to an office. The wood footings are still here and the dimensions and location were spot on. 

Get the maps on either side of your target year. They will provide valuable clues as to what was going on in the area. Was occupancy stable or changing? Changing how? Was there new construction, additions, or demolitions? Were construction materials or number of windows changing? (Brick, wood, stone?) Sometimes the maps were drawn by different people and have additional details on your target building too. 

Also check business directories. The precursor to phone books and Thomas' Register these books often had large advertisements with engravings of businesses and prominent buildings. They also frequently announced new services such as the construction of a nearby depot to encourage business to come into an area. 

Some areas of the country had specialized directories of Architects and master builders to promote their businesses. These specialty directories frequently list recently completed, prominent, buildings and newly acquired commissions. They occasionally include engravings or photographs of completed projects. 

If the building had a clock tower make sure to check the Thomas Clock Society. Thomas Clock Company printed directories of tower clocks with some illustrations and other key information such as architect or master builder and some statistics on the building such as height and main materials for construction. These directories were used to attract future business and act as a catalog of capabilities. The clock tower in our town is listed as having an automatic coal "gas" lit dial that would illuminate the clock dial at night and turn off the gas flow in daylight hours. This would be a great detail to model (and easy to do with electric). 

Genealogical Societies have a wealth of information and photographs. They're unpredictable but can be a gold mine of pictures and original papers and maps. Family information about key railroad employees such as a telegraph operator or engineer can add great depth to your back-story for your models. Some of these items can be modeled. In the late 1800's our local station master's wife was known for her flower gardens at the station. They frequently won best kept station awards from the railroad company because the flowers so pleased the Railroad company and its customers. Gardens at the station would not show up in maps and predated most photographs of the area. This family information provided a great detail that is worth modeling. 

Churches are often the repository for local history as well. This is especially true if the clergy has an interest in railroads as well as their members. We got news at our local railroad historical society this month that a local church was looking for help going through over a 1,000 photographs and negatives of railroad subjects. It seems the clergy had been collecting and keeping railroad photos for the last 75 years or more. The minister has moved on but the pictures remained behind. Now the Church Board needs help organizing and identifying them. There's always somebody that collects photos or old postcards. Ask around and then go for a personal visit. 

Check with the local newspaper office or library/archives for old newspapers or microfilm of newspapers. A prominent building here in town was built in 1883 when local businessmen complained in letters to the editor about the old building serving this purpose and petitioned City council for a new building to be built at taxpayer expense. The controversy, including petition, was printed in the paper. The City built the building. The paper covered its construction and opening ceremonies a few months later. The paper also covered the sale of the old building. There was good info. for a model on both buildings. 

Some papers were desperate for anything to fill their pages and would print construction contracts and similar detailed information that was customarily filed with the county or city clerk's office. A local paper here printed the entire budget for a building being built in 1900's including prices, quantities, and named every tradesman and contractor on the job. The local bank ran advertisements after it was completed complete with detiailed drawing because they had financed the construction project. 50 years LATER the same paper ran a "remember when" feature story complete with a photograph of the older building. 

Check with the state archive to see if the State purchased land or provided direct funding for the railroad. This often created a duty to report to the legislature, and these reports are usually retained forever. Our local railroad single handedly funded the public education system for the State for about 30 years through passenger and freight taxes and therefor the Railroad had to keep very detailed records and report annually to the State legislature. Some of these reports were brief but others detailed every structure built and every foot of track layed or ripped up. 

Many buildings were built using pattern books rather than full plans. A master carpenter could adapt patterns (illustrations and basic dimensions) from a book to local use. If you don't have specifics, you might be able to use a pattern to create your model. If there is no pattern book for your structure, then find contemporary sources on similar buildings and local materials. The National Historic Register of Historic Places and the Historic American Building Survey (HABS) has free measured drawings available online. 

I have found some great public domain books on Google books including one from the 1800's instructing railroad superintendents on how railroad structures were then being built around the country complete with dimensions, location references, and materials used. 

Have fun.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

To all, 
Thanks for the information. Keep it coming. I just heard back from the Redmond Historical society and they have a few photographs of T& D Feeds and the Depot in thier collection. They said they would email them to me. I'm just hoping that they are different then the ones I've found so far. 
Steve, 
Were did you find the photo by J.F.? Was it in one of his many books? That photo might be the key to figuring out the railside of the structure. Although it doesn't show everything, it gives a big clue to whats there. I thought I saw a silo in my aerial photo, but couldn't quite tell. That photo confirms that! 
I looked at the Sanborn maps the other day that the library had online, and I was kind of disappointed. I might just have to place a phone call to the library to see if they have more maps on microfilm at the library. 
Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

I found that photograph while looking through the Northern Pacific Historical Association in the...

Jim Fredrickson's Photo Collection[/b]

I took another path, following the Seattle, Lake Shore & Eastern Railway's history, which is the railroad that originally built the rail line that passed through Redmond (i.e. Salmonberg (prior to 1881) - Melrose (1881) - Redmond (1882)).


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi Craig,
The local tax assessor may have photos and building dimensions in his tax files. Our state requires the local property tax assessor to have a fairly detailed file on each property to back up their estimate of valuation for property tax calculations. Most of the assessors take photos to prove they actually went out the to the site. The file is not updated very often, unless a building permit or change of ownership occurs. Many assessors wait between revaluations and just adjust values by calculations. Even so you might find a few gems in those files.


You might also check with local professional property appraisers. Professional property appraisers compare several buildings of a similar type for bank loans and establishing sale prices for businesses. Even if T&D didn't get an appraisal it may have been used as a "comparable" (similar) property when creating appraisal for another such business in the same market or geographic area. 

Good luck.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Steve, 
Thanks for the info. The Lake Shore and Eastern was a small line! I've lived here all my life and I didn't even know about it until a few years ago, when I was reading about the development around Lake Washington. I finnally heard back from the state arI'chive office. They pulled the records for the property from 1937-2003. So I would assume that T & D Feeds was moved in 1937? if the archives has a record of a building? They wouldn't tell me much about what the photographs are, but I figured at .25 cents a page it was a lot cheaper to have them mail a copy of the archives, then go and visit in person, and then pay the .25 cent charge to walk out with them. I'll be waiting for the mailman now! 
Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

I don't know, but from what I've learned thus far about the SLS&E Rwy., maybe gauging the respective size by the aggregate miles of track the SLS&E Rwy. one could say it was small, but it seems that strategically it was most important. Much as the Seattle & Walla Walla Railroad and Transportation Company was when the Northern Pacific Railway decided on Tacoma as their terminus, which in turn exacerbated the competition between Tacoma and Seattle as the major center of commerce in Washington state.

The SLS&E had a goodly amount of trackage laid from Seattle to the north end of Lake Washington and down its eastern shore, also from Woodinville in mostly a northern direction toward Sumas and the proposed connection to the Canadian Pacific Railway at Mission B.C. Then there was the beginnings of the Spokane to Seattle branch (mainly Medical Lake to Davenport), but then the Northern Pacific Rwy. was getting involved so it's hard to distinguish which should get credit for what.







Not that I'm inferring there was any intrigue or collusion or anything in the building of the railroads, mind you.







However, it sure is interesting to discover just how things came about, it's back to what you were saying about research being fun.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

Here's a copy of a plat map from Redmond dated 1891 relating to the property where the train station was located and it looks like that it was pretty much located in the same location and position that is shown in the more modern photographs. Note that it references the SLS&E Rwy. and not the Northern Pacific Rwy. since the N.P. take over didn't take place until I believe 1892. Also note who the land is/was owned by, the gentleman that the town was ultimately named after.







I've also dug up a couple of more modern survey documents regarding the land that T&D Feeds sat on (i.e. 23-OCT-2006 & 08-JUL-2008), let me know if you want me to upload those too so you can copy them.

Redmond Plat Map
File Type: PDF / File Size: 133KB
Left-click to open - Right-click to download[/b]

Document Detail 
Instrument Number: 1891051178328 
Sequence #: 0 
Date Received: 05/11/1891 12:00:00 AM 
Document Type: PLAT 
Book: 007 
Page: 074 
Consideration: 

Grantors 
MCREDMOND, LUKE 

Grantees 
NONE


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Steve, 
Thanks for the information. I don't think a plat map of T &D Feeds would help much because the buildings were torn down in 2001, so a 2006, or 2008 date would not be useful. Actually the plat map that you pulled up shows the plat of T & D Feeds (although it's not labeled, or purchased yet). I can tell by the shape of the plat, and the location of the two streets, Cleveland St and Leary Way. 
Thanks 
Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

Yeah, the 1891 plat map even predates the Co-Operative I believe, and records where Luke McRedmond gave the land to the town of Redmond.

You are correct, the records show the current land use as commercial vacant land, but I figured if nothing else if you've got the boundaries of the lot lines you'd have some idea of what size the demolished buildings would have had to fit within. However, if the copies that you receive have the buildings shown you've got it made.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Steve, 
When I first started, I looked at the property records and was able to access the tax assessors information, and the ownership rights so I was able to figure out the parcel numbers of the property. This is what the archive office used to access their archives. Another useful tool I've looked at so far was Google Maps, street view. Although the buildings are torn down it gives a prospective of what I remember. It would be a better if google had historical photo's like that! For more modern structures or ones that have not changed recently it is a good source of information. 
The local history of Redmond is quite interesting regarding Luke McRedmond. The old Redmond Schoolhouse is still standing and is in use by the city today. Not to many other structures from the founding of the city are still around. It's mostly condo's. 
Redmond use to call it's self the bicycle capital of the world, but now it's better know for that computer giant. 
Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

Yeah, at least from what I've picked up over the Internet. It seems that the original name reference for the settlement was Salmonberg, then when Warren Perrigo built the "Melrose House" inn people took to calling it Melrose, later in 1881 when Adam Tosh was appointed as the first postmaster it was officially named the Melrose post office. Then in the following year Luke McRedomnd was appointed the postmaster and petitioned for the name change to Redmond.

Oh, so that's where that garage start-up finally set up shop, eh.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Update finally, 
I just got my package from the state archive office and received 88 pages of documents regarding the property for both T & D Feeds and the NP ROW. Ironically I added a couple of other property requests that border T & D Feeds and the NP ROW, and I found out that the owners (NP) leased their land to T & D Feeds and a lumber yard (Gossards Lumber, which was also torn down recently, '05? '06). Now I have at least some information about the property and the buildings, including photographs. Although the photo's aren't large I can get a general idea. I suppose I might have to make a trip to the archive office and see if I can copy the photo's in a larger format, or see if they have the negatives. I think the photos are only 4x5 if that. But they show details that I other wise would have to guess about. After just looking at the papers, I noticed that one of the assessors made a notation about T & D Feeds. He wrote something along the lines of multiple buildings built together, in poor construction, no permits issued for construction. He also noted that the unloading shed was built 6' on to the NP ROW, which was leased to T & D Feeds. There is one photo of the unloading shed, and it actually shows 2 boxcars being unloaded or on spot! What a score! Most of the notations discuss the poor quality of the buildings, and the lack of interior. Most of the buildings are corrugated aluminum, with one being a combination of aluminum and wood. Another structure across the street was cinder blocks. Among one of the notes was that a 2 story storage shed was built on the property, but was not in use because they did not have an elevator to move product to the 2nd story. 
As for the Redmond Depot, many of the same notations; poor quality construction! Including was a different photo of the depot, with T & D Feeds in the background (very similar to JF photo). 
Next step, draw out some scale drawings of what I have. I think I'll make them in Ho scale. Any tips on how to use 'known' dimensions to create 'unknown' dimensions. I was thinking of just estimating various sizes of windows, doors, etc based of the overall size of the buildings. 
Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Craig

That's sounds like you got a good percentage of what you were looking for.

Don't know if the following is what you're looking for but hopefully it will be of help to you.

MLS Article - Doing Take-offs from Photographs[/b]

Using GIMP's Perspective & Measuring tools to Take Measurements From Photographs[/b]


Another example of using GIMP to extract trackwork from a photograph[/b]

GIMP is a freeware graphics editing program, which if you don't have it can be downloaded from the following link. Of course if you've already got Adobe PhotoShop you can use that instead.

GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Program)[/b]


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Steve; 

The GIMP sounds like an interesting program, but I can't find anything about how to install the program. 
The downloadable files end with file extension of ".tar.bz2". What is that stuff? Pardon my ignorance of programs.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Richard Weatherby on 28 Sep 2009 10:52 AM 
Steve; 

The GIMP sounds like an interesting program, but I can't find anything about how to install the program. 
The downloadable files end with file extension of ".tar.bz2". What is that stuff? Pardon my ignorance of programs. Richard

If you are running MS/Windows (XP, Vista) what you want is the familiar installer program version found at the following link.

GIMP v2.6.7 - Windows Installer[/b]

The GIMP Documentation is On-line.

GIMP Documentation[/b]

The files that you are talking about are actually the source code for the program and would need to be compiled to work for you (i.e. converted to the executable files you're used to seeing), if you've downloaded those just delete them from your system.


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Many THANKS, Steve!!! 
It works great!! Thanks for this great tool!! 
Having an architectural background, I have reverse engineered many building over the years, BUT I was doing it based upon the reverse trigonometry of the perspective process. 
This software as well as Photoshop (which I have not mastered) allow you to warp the photo into a flat plane and take direct measurements. 

Now if people would just take more photos of the back of buildings. 
Thanks again!!


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

No problem Richard, glad I could be of help.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Hum some how I became unsubscribed to the topic! Oops. I was able to create some drawings from the pictures and using some guesswork about lengths, heights, etc. When I looked into the paperwork I recieved I found a lot of good clues about ceiling heights, and structural design. I have to look at those links you provided for me. It should be interesting. 
I think my first structure I'm going to work on will be a small 60'x30' storage structure that was accross the street from T & D Feeds. It's a simple cinderblock structure with 4 sliding doors. That should be a good warm up to the larger structures! 

Any ideas for cinder blocks? I thought of copying Burl's idea of making plaster 'bricks' and then making a wall mold from that, but when I look and compare brick buildigns to cinderblock buildings, cinderblock buildings don't have much grout between the cinderblocks, like a brick building does. I don't know if scribing styrene would work (or be worth it). I found out that cinder blocks are 8'' by 8'' by 16'' long. So in 1/29 it comes close to .275'' by .550. If I could find some stryrene that is .250 x .500 that might be close enough for a cinder block. 

Craig


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Cast those cinder block walls using the back of a Precision Products plastic sheet. PP sheets are now sold by Ozark Miniatures. Similar to a brick building that I wrote about in June 2000 issue of Garden Railway magazine. PP sheets are about 15 inches square.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Richard, 
Thanks for the idea. I might try out a couple of different ideas. Do you know what the dimensions are of the bricks? I found some .250x.250 styrene at a hobby shop, so I might still try Burl's method of making plaster bricks, but I wouldn't be spacing the bricks/cinderblocks as far apart as he did. 

Update, 
I finally heard back from the Redmond Historical society and they emailed me some pictures of both structures. They said they have more pictures in their files, and they would pass them along too. One of the pictures was taken from the roof of T& D Feeds (1988 to present I'm guessing), and it shows an unseen view before. But looking at pictures from the 1969-70's era to 1988 (the next labeled photo) the mill torn down 2 or 3 different buildings and replaced them with different structures. Also another noticeable feature that changed was the height of the grain silos to the south of the railroad track. They not only were replaced with a different type of material, but they also gained about twice their original height. 

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=112948&id=838651911&l=e90a256c80 

Craig


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Update, 
I started out with a couple ideas for cinder block walls, but ended up making a pattern out of .250x.250 styrene. So far I have only made one wall pattern (a scale 12' x 6') out of the styrene cinder blocks. This has been an interesting process because I discovered that Evergreen styrene isn't quite what the package includes to a few hundredths of an inch. A package of .250x .250 styrene sticks resulted in measurements from .241 up to .253. Although not to much of a difference to most modeling applications, when building a cinder block wall these differences became quite alarming. The pattern that I made off sets the cinder blocks in each row, so each mold will interconnect with each other. I've still got to make a few more patterns, but this method seems to be working. 

But I discovered that most of the styrene has at least on side that is .250 or with in .002 of that. I cut bricks about .500" long to represent a 8x8x16 cinder block and glued them to a scrap sheet of styrene. I then made a mold and am currently making resin patterns to begin construction of the first storage building. I'll try and post pictures when I can. 

Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Progress is good, but never a step forward without obstacles.







Looking forward to further news.


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Craig;

Here is the website for the precision products plastic sheets. The photos are OK but do not show sizes.
Based upon my sheets which seem to match those photos, here are the sizes.

12005 = 3/8" x 3/4"
12057 = 3/4" x 1-1/4"
14005 = 3/16" x 3/8"
14057 = 3/8" x 5/8"

If you want me to post photos of these, let me know. They do seem to have staggered corners to permit interlock of sheets or corners.
Some are what is know as "rock face." Some are quite large as you can see.

Here is the website... Precision Products

I do not have any connection with these products. I just enjoy using them.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Update,
It's been a while since I had time for modeling, but today I got around to casting some sections of wall and gluing them together on one of the small storage buildings. I would have done more but I ran out of resin again! It's amazing how fast you go through that stuff and how simple it is to make a building. This time I'm buying a gallon at a time. I forgot to take pictures, but I'll try and snap some photos tomorrow and post. Since I ran out of resin I only got 1 side done, but the building is huge! I can't wait to scale out the main building and mock it up. 
Besides casting the wall sections I'm working on building a couple of small 8' x 14' high silos that were on the north side on the main building that were used to load out bound products (I think sacks sales, but I'm not to sure). Any tips for creating cones with styrene?

The building has four sliding doors, but I'm having problems figuring out how to model these doors because I can't see much detail so I'm just going to guess. I think the mechanism is similar to this http://evansvillehistory.net/sitebu...14x489.jpg but on a building instead of a railroad car. 
While doing research I came across a couple of interesting articles in the local papers about the city of Redmond attempting to list T&D Feeds as a historical structure. Too bad it didn't make it.








Should I change the title of the thread to better reflect the topic?

Craig


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bnsfconductor on 24 Nov 2009 11:07 PM 

Any tips for creating cones with styrene?


Craig 

Funnels, 69-89c at wally wurld in the automotive dept. cut the rim and tip off, and turn a bit of wood to match the taper to plug the hole (I used a sanding drum in the drill press..... Ain't styrene, but it's fast cheap n easy


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

Here are some pictures of reproduction old-time stuff and then the link at the bottom is of more modern stuff but to large to display. Hope this is of help.











































Modern Sliding Hardware[/b]


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Mik,
Thanks for the idea but I think my shapes would be to small. One cone shape I need to make tapers down quite fast compared to a funnel, but I'll keep the idea for future reference.
Craig


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Steve,
Thanks for the link that's exactly what I was looking for! 
Pictures to come soon
Craig


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs051.snc3/13836_187469611911_838651911_2889889_4999372_n.jpg[img] 

Okay that didn't work. Here's the link instead 

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=112948&id=838651911&l=e90a256c80


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's the store front in 1967 off the street. This is the side I remember during the 1990's. T & D Feeds bought out the building in 1970 so I think this is as close to an accurate picture as I can find. The silos above the freight doors is what I'm working on also. There 8' in diameter, and 14' in height.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's the building I'm working on right now.










Here's a single wall panel on the workbench.









Part of the completed wall that is 60' scale feet long by 18' height. Forklift for scale.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

I know that it's low tech and all and is a manual method to boot.







However, the following is a link to a PDF version of an old-time (circa 1918) sheet metal book, which I uploaded to my MLS web space and you're welcome to download a copy if you like, it's not a really big file only 3MB. The information you're looking for is in Chapter X - Radial Line Developments.

Sheet Metal Book[/b]


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Another quick idea, maybe check out the cake decorating section at Michael's craft store, and see how close you can get to size and shape you need with the plastic tips for pastry piping bags. They have a rather steep taper to them.

Edit:[/b] After stopping to think about it a bit, in 1:29 the 8' diameter works out to 3.310" so strike the above idea. The tips would never approach that.









Those wall section castings that you did really look good.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Steve,
I used 3" ID ABS pipe for the silos so the tip idea is good, but like you said way to small. I found an old MR article about how to build a coaling tower and th guy built a cone using styrene. I think I can modifiy the size to get it to work. The idea behind it was to draw a ID circle the size of the spout of cone, and then measure the diaganal length of the cone out from the ID circle and then draw the final circle. When it wraps around the pipe it should make a cone. I'm got it to work okay with paper, but it still needs some fine tuning. 

The wall sections didn't quite turn out as good as I expected, but I think from 5' away it gives the overall look pretty well. I ended up making two different wall sections (6' high x12' long) to make a more random pattern. I've got two more smaller filler sections I need to make along with a 65 degree angle piece to join the building together. 

Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Hehehe, Click the link in the above reply, let the PDF file download and open, then type 102 in the page number box on Adobe Reader tool-bar and hit the {Enter} key. Does that diagram look familiar? The description of how and why the construction is explained in the text.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's google map street view of the structure that I'm building. I didn't know this small storage building was still standing until I was talking to my Dad about my project this weekend. I think I'll have to make an trip over to Redmond to measure the door sizes and visit the historical society. 
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&amp....51,,0,7.5

If you pan around to the other side of the street (south) you'll see the big hole were T&D Feeds used to be.


Craig


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

I just found this photo online after surfing the net while doing college homework.








http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/sh...id=1059439 Notice the date of 1988.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

That's a real nice find, provides a great deal of answers, good deal!


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Read this interesting board award that I found online that relates to T & D Feeds. Scroll down to page 2 of the pdf.  http://kas.cuadra.com/star/images/nmb/02000REI.pdf I don't want to spoil the reading, but it's quite interesting.








Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

As you said, interesting, just goes to show people haven't changed all that much. Where there's the will there's a way.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's another photo I found at the Redmond Historical Society. I think now I have enough information that I can start to mock up some of the main structures. Progress is slow, but steady. I'm setting a goal of finishing the small storage building by the end of the month.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Was wondering just yesterday how you were progressing, will be looking forward to the end of the month.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Between the end of the semester of college, and the holidays it didn't leave much time for modeling. But now that I have my BA in history I should have a little bit more time to spend on modeling. I'm waiting on more resin too.. Other then making a couple of doors and casting the rest of the walls the small structure should easy to finish. 
Now at least everyone can see more of the building that I'm making!


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, congratulations on attaining your degree, and will be looking forward to the up coming updates.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's the present view down the tracks in Redmond.










This is what front of the building looks like currently. From my information I have the building only had 3 wooden doors, but it currently has 4 metal doors. So I'm still figuring out how they created more space for a door.



















Edit: Why didn't my photos show up? They are shown in the html view, but not on normal view, or when I publish?


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Same thing one this post I tried with just one photo.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

Don't know what you're doing, but when whatever your putting in for the image's URL when it gets translated it gets garbled. The only thing that remains a valid URL is a link back to the topic and the current reply you're posting.

Regardless of whether you're using the 'Quick Reply' editor or the HTML editor. Instead of using the 'Forum Code' tags (i.e. following image)










Try using the actual HTML image tags, and see if that works (i.e. following image).










Here's what the translation of your URL looks like.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 17 Jan 2010 04:48 PM 
Craig

Don't know what you're doing, but when whatever your putting in for the image's URL when it gets translated it gets garbled. The only thing that remains a valid URL is a link back to the topic and the current reply you're posting.

Regardless of whether you're using the 'Quick Reply' editor or the HTML editor. Instead of using the 'Forum Code' tags (i.e. following image)










Try using the actual HTML image tags, and see if that works (i.e. following image).










Here's what the translation of your URL looks like.









I was doing the second option so I don't know why it got translated wrong. 









See if that works


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Sometimes 'regular expressions' do kinky things.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the help. 
I'm going to repost these images a little bigger. I can't edit the old post, so I'll just repost without the text. 





























Photo from http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1059439


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Hopefully I should have more time this week to finish making the rest of the wall sections and time to glue them together. When I first layed out the structure on the garage floor I was quite impressed with the overall size. I'm thinking I'll cut a roof out of my 1/8'' styrene sheet so it's one continuous piece. I'm also thinking I might figure a way to make to roof removable so that in the future I could either use the building for rail car storage, or for a detailed interior. I figure I could spend hours and hours detailing and never finish the project, so it's better to assemble the overall buildings and then add detail later. With such a structure on the railroad I think it would be a major focal point so it would need to be more detailed then other structures, but that could be years away!

Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Craig,

That's some serious progress, the silo came out well.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Ya I thought so too. I've got a few more H beams to cut and glue along with the angle irons, but I think it will look great when it's done. When I finish the bottom of the silo, I've got to make the cap. I didn't take any pictures when I was making it, but I will on the next one. Simple really, take 3" PVC cut to length, cap, then glue a smaller diameter styrene pipe, and fold the cone! The hardest part was the puddy between the cone and the smaller pipe.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I didn't quite get the building finished by the end of January, but I did get it all assembled and glued together. I haven't had to much time to work on it this month (was installing RCS in a new locomotive) but all that's left to do is fill in the gaps between the molds with puddy and sand smooth. I'm not looking forward to the process. 
In the mean time I also started working on the unloading shed to give me a break from sanding. 
















At least for the next couple of months or so I should be able to make some stead progress as I get tuesday evening all to myself, when my wife is busy! LOL


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

Man that sure is one big expanse of flat roof, what kind of bracing have you got underneath it to keep it from sagging in the center?


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Steve, 
I don't have any bracing right now underneath it to keep it from sagging, but it does have a slight slope towards the front angled corner (the white styrene). I haven't seen any sagging yet, so I don't know if it will. The roof is 1/8" styrene so that might stiffen it a little.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's some more updates and pictures. The photos are of the unloading shed area, and a small 12' x24' structure. I'm not to sure what smaller structure was used for but it was a "recent" addition along with the covered unloading shed in the 1960's. I've been having trouble figuring out a way to 'see' some of the complex substructures in the photos so I turned to google and thier program Sketchup. It's a free CAD program. I'm still trying to learn all of the tools, but so far it has been a easy way to create a mockup. 
As you can see in the second photo the part of the roof is sagging. This building was built with 1/16" styrene, and it doesn't have the same strength as the 1/8" styrene. I'll have to add bracing to this smaller roof, but the much larger roof in the other building is holding just fine! I didn't think that it would make much of a difference but clearly it did.




























Edit: I can't figure out what I did wrong with the photo's. 

(There ya' go fixed the URL's, don't know what happened, SteveC)[/i]


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

It's been a while since I had a chance to upload some photo's and update the thread, but I finally got three slides printed and scanned from a family friend who took these pictures while testing out a new camera, and the subject just happened to be the building I'm modeling. He took these photos in 1981 so it's about 10 years later from the date that I plan on modeling, but from my research it shows to be very similar to the 1970's decade set up. This was also the one side of the building that I didn't have very good information on. 

I'll try and get some more progress pictures up soon too.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's some progress pictures of the different steps and parts I've been making over the last couple of months. I will start with the brick work that is on the store front of the building. I don't have any pictures uploaded to show the prototype store front, but I hope my pictures explain how it looks.
I started with a plaster mold which I carved the brick mortar lines out of. I worked on this over the course of a week just doing a little section at a time. 








After I finished the carving I made a rubber mold and casted (unsuccessfully the first couple of times) a resin copy of the plaster. Here's the resin copy of the left side of the building.








Close-up of the same section.








This is the plaster carving of the right side of the store front which I'm in the process of still carving.








Here's the store area with the resin on the left, and the plaster on the right. Above the brick work is a large window, which I'm still trying to figure out what to use (real glass, acrylic?).


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Next up is the building of a couple of grain silos that I thought based on the paperwork that I had were located next to the store area at the front of the building. Instead after looking at the newest pictures I got from a family friend I realized these silos I have been building are located next to the unloading shed, so the photos don't show the correct placement. Instead much larger silos (40' compared to 24') will be built and placed in the front of building (I'm not to sure what it call it, a processing or sorting bin?)
Anyway back to how I made the silos for anyone who's interested in making anything similar. I started by cutting a piece of 3" PVC pipe to the length I needed and capped it with a piece of stryene, and then maked the center of the pipe.








I then drew a circle the diameter of I wanted the outlet pipe to be (I used 1/2" stryene tubing), and glued the appropriate length of piping. This determines the slope, location, and size of the cone. One these ones I cented the outlet pipe into the middle of the PVC pipe, but next to larger ones it will be off centered a little, and thus will form a different, more lopsized cone.
< img alt="" src="http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs227.snc4/38677_421054601911_838651911_4683140_8372290_n.jpg" />
The trickest part comes next, and required a lot of trial and error. I took some scratch paper and drew a 1/2" circle (for the bottom outlet), and then measured the diagonal of the triangle based off the height of the cone and the radius of the PVC pipe. Using this information I then measured a line from the center point of the 1/2" circle, and made a larger diameter circle. This picture shows the everything cut out of the paper.








I then test fitted the circle cut out and attempted to fold the paper into a cone shape.









More to follow tommorrow hopefully, as it's time for work!


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

The following link is to a PDF copy of an old sheet metal book (c 1918) which you can download a copy of if you like. Anyway in Chapter 10 Radial Line Developement (i.e. PDF document page 101) you'll find instructions of how to layout a right-angle cone with a hole at the tip.

Sheet Metal Work[/b]


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Steve,
That's what I used initally but found it easier to measure the squares of the right triangle to figure out the size of the cone.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Follow-up from yesterday's posting. 
Here's the paper and styrene cutouts of the cone.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Opps, posted to soon! 
This is the completed cone fabricated out of stryene.








The top of the same silo.









And finally a picture that shows the approximate size of the completed structures








On the lower lefthand side is the store area, above that it is a sorting/processing bin, and on the far right is the unloading shed. This picture gives a good idea of how big the overall structure will be when it's completed, but doesn't show it's proper height.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

For those interested,
Here's a couple of progress pictures of my building so far. These show the overall size of the structure. It's quite large!
















There's still more substructures to build on top of the broad flat roof area, along with the main elevator leg. It's a slow process to get everything to fit just right together as I want to be able to make it some what portable. I'm planning on keeping the store area on the right (peaked roof) a seperate structure so the main building is easier to move around when it gets placed on the layout. It's pretty light construction with 1/16th and 1/8th inch thick stryene as the substructure area. 
Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig

Wow, that sure has come a long way when you announced starting research on the project back on 10 Sep. 2009. Looks like the tower will sort of help with the support of that wide expanse of flat roof. Keep on going for it look how far you've come so far.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

It's been almost a year now and I still haven't gotten all of the main structural shapes completed. It seems every time I take a step forward, I take two steps back because I find some new detail or information regarding the structure. The research has been challanging and fun at the same time. 
It's really hard to keep track of all the little changes I've been making (both on the model and digitially on Sketchup). It's been a fun project so far. I'm hoping to finishs shortly the rest of the building in the coming days. I spent last night revising the Sketchup drawing because I realized after studying some pictures the roof structures were smaller then I had designed, but it made it a lot less complicated. The flat roof seems to hold up fairly well, but I think I might be adding some more supports underneath. I'm sure I could have made most of the structure out of plywood, but I wanted to experiment with making a entire plastic substructure to see how well it will last outdoors when it's finally complete. 
Craig


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Over the last couple of days I was able to finish the majority of the styrene substructure. 
Here's the large substructure on the workbench








Same part, different angle. The large flat expanse is were the main elevator head distrubutes the grain, this is marked as the bagging area on the drawings I have.








Here its placed on the large flat roof (I ended up adding some more internal support walls to prevent it from sagging.

















The copper piping is just for visual references, and are just resting on the structures and will be were the major piping should be.









Some size references;


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

That's going to be one impressive trackside structure when installed on the layput.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Wow, this is a great project!


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

It's a little bit more impressive now that you can actually see the size and shape of the structure! One of my biggest complaints as a railroader to the modeling public is seeing small single family dwelling sized industries that receive 3 or 4 carloads a product a day. T & D Feeds had room for 3 cars on thier track, but normally only one car was spotted at a time. So it might get switched every other day (either moving a load around to be respotted or pulling an empty) but it would be highly unlikely that they would recieve 3 cars at a time, multiple days in a row. If I design my layout for operations my plan is to have 1-2 cars on spot, but each 'day' would require a respot of cars that are there. That's my little rant, and also an explaination for why I didn't selectively compress this structure. I'm planning on only having 2 or 3 structures this size on the layout, with the rest being building flats that are the correct length, height. I just don't see having a 4' x4' space for every single industry! But for a couple of focal points on the railroad I think it would look great. 
The next big step is to start cutting, and annealing pop cans for the siding! (Anyone know of a way that doesn't waste to much of the can?) Thanks to my in laws I should have a plentiful supply!


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

It's been a long time between updates (like normal! for those who started following the thread way back in '09) but here's a quick couple of photos and descriptions.
The first one shows the final location in relation to the main buildings (see the older photo's to understand the layout of the structure) with a piece a 1/2" brass pipe representing some sort of piping. I've got some washers to add to the pipe to represent flanges, but haven't gotten to it yet!) The second hole is for another pipe that will exit and enter almost directly below each other.








Self explaining!








Another angle of the first picture. Notice the removal of the structure in the foreground (styrene glue marks). I discovered (about 6 months later) that the foreground piece is on the opposite side, instead of the side I'm orginally glued it on, account lack of foresight and continueing to notice more and more details in the pictures I have!
















These holes are prototypically drilled! T & D Feeds didn't care to much about sealing out the weather!


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Okay I know it's been a long time since I updated this thread, but I've struck a gold mine worth of information. I contacted the Redmond Historical Society (again), and the Eastside Heritage Center for more information. Two days later a guy named Tom emails me back and asks "what do you want to know, I worked at T &D Feeds for over 30 years." WOW, I'm going to pick this guys brain for all it's worth. Hopefully I can get information about the railroad operational aspect, and information about the building! 

Craig


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

My new contact has provided me with a couple of new photos I haven't seen.




































While I've haven't had a chance to work on the actual building, I've been playing around with Sketch Up again, and imported my model of T&D Feeds into an overhead view of the area to help me plan a future layout section









I haven't started to draw out the depot, but I know the basic floor plan. I may end up using Sketch Up to develop a track plan and/or a mockup of specific areas on my future layout...

I don't feel like an armchair modeler anymore despite the fact that I don't have a lot of time to work on stuff. Every little bit helps!

Craig


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Cool project! Looking good so far.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's another photo dump. Once again I'm reminded why I fell in love with this building as a kid, and have liked grain elevators ever since.. That and the baby chicks walking around the store....
















I like this last one the best. It confirms my idea that they had at least 3 cars at a time, with only one spotted over the pit area. I'm beginning to see the different modifications to the building over time too. For instance in this photo (I'm guessing 80-90's?) the grain silo to the left of the unloading are is squared, a couple of more pipes and what not too. 








Compared to this photo from I think the 70's (the BN grain car is a good clue for the date). But yet some of the tax assessor information from the same time period talks about a couple of small silos 8' in diameter near the back of the building. So could be that they are on the opposite side of the building?...


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Ray Dunakin on 09 Mar 2012 05:16 PM 
Cool project! Looking good so far. 

Thanks Ray. I'm figuring I need an area about 8' x 30' just to model from the Depot area to the turnout for T&D Feeds on the East end of the siding, that doesn't even include the west siding switch (left of the depot), or the east siding switch (right of T& D Feeds by a couple thousand feet). Even if all I can build is this section as my layout I won't complain. I'd love to model more sections of the subdivision, but that's way in the future. One step at a time for now.

Craig


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