# How Were Handrail Stanchions Attached?



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm specifically interested in stanchions like these on the Sonoma...



















The stanchion itself is bolted to the horizontal bracket. The bracket, however, penetrates through a slot in the boiler jacket. If one is wrapping such a jacket around the boiler, there's no way to get it over both brackets. The slots simply aren't big enough vertically. Nor are the slots big enough to allow for attaching the brackets after the jacket is already in place - at least not from what I can see. So how was the damn thing held in place?

Was the jacket slid into place in pieces and then riveted in place? That would solve the slot problem, but how then were the rivets bucked on the underside?


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm. I usually see answers to such questions from you









Looks like it was mounted to the boiler before the jacket was put on. 

Don't you just love that 19th century craftsmanship?


----------



## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Dwight, 

The brackets themselves (no stanchions) are bolted to the boiler; the wrapper is fitted after the insulation has been fitted, and the 'crinolines' that hold the insulation on top of that then the boiler wrapper with the slots is then fitted.

Note the extra depth of the slot - below the horizontal handrail plate: that will allow the wrapper to be wangled around and through the slots. 

Then the handrail stanchions themselves can be bolted onto that horizontal plate.

Here is a photo from 1900 and it is a portion of an official photo of the the Baldwin Moguls being built up in the open at Derby; The handrail fixings are the 3 horizontal and double bent bits of steel - the first is just below the seam on the front ring of the boiler.

The handrail stanchions were bolted through them, they are NOT horizontal, but you see the style of fixing; which had to be proof against leaks and boiler pressure. Note also the crinolines in this photo.



They certainly couldn't have done the outside assembly this summer!! 











The boiler cladding plates in the UK were joined I suspect top & bottom having and overlap of about 1" with 5/8" screws holding the plates together, no doubt with some sealant as well; the boiler bands were generally fixed at the bottom, but those over the firebox could be fixed top & bottom - possibly as a result of more expansion being needed? We model builders miss off the fixing bits as they would be forever being knocked off and I know there are no nuts and bolts small enough in my scales. vf
From the superb photos of 'Sonoma' when they came to the wagon top section some riveting was needed. 





Why did the US loco makers have an order? The UK loco builders were on strike, thus Baldwin's has an order as did Schenectady as well. They were also built by Baldwin for other railways in the UK at the same time.


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

as there is a seam shortly below I'd guess either the slotted brackets, as mentioned, or they were bolted on by reaching up underneath the wrapper. Harder to remove the jacket for an external visual, but they likely didn't all that often back then. 

It appears Danforth-Cooke probably screwed theirs onto studs on the boiler. you didn't want to be screwing and unscrewing theing from the shell any more than absolutely necessary











If you need a more exact answer, try asking Andrew or one of the other boys on the Pacific NG board. They have a couple experts on older stuff 

http://www.pacificng.com/forum/index.php


----------



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Dwight: 

Email the museum. This loco is a modern paint restoration and either the curator or someone on his staff can provide you with the exact answer as well as possibly boiler photos before and after the sheet metal (with the modern paint to resemble Russia iron) was applied. 

Norman


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the replies. I got a pretty good answer on the Home Machinists Forum, at least so far as Sonoma is concerned.


As in Mik's photo, the Sonoma's front stanchion brackets are bolted to the smokebox, not through the jacket...









Best guess is the the notch in the jacket runs to the edge of the sheet. The sheet is simply slid over the bracket towards the rear, with the boiler band covering the extended notch. Bolt the front bracket to the smokebox... problem solved.


----------



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Dwight: 

What is the tender base colour over which the fancy pinstriping is applied? Red? Maroon? Brown? 

Can you post photos of the sides, front and rear of the loco/tender? 

Thank you 
Norman


----------



## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

The bracket would not have been bolted, it would have been riveted to the boiler shell. A bolt could come loose and then the boiler would leak and you would have had to send someone inside to hold a wrench so you tighten it back up. Also there would have been problems with sealing the hole around the bolt where a rivet would not work loose and as it was riveted tight it would fill the hole through the boiler shell. 
-


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Andre - you assume the hole would go all the way through the boiler shell. A blind tapped hole wouldn't. Even a through hole wouldn't require a nut on the inside, and would likely seal itself up in short order once steam was raised for the first time. It's not uncommon for flues to leak slightly when rolled into the tube sheets. They stop quickly enough once steam is raised and don't leak again after that. I has slight leaks around my check valves initially. They stopped leaking as well. Doesn't take long.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

What is the tender base colour over which the fancy pinstriping is applied? Red? Maroon? Brown? Are you referring to Sonoma? The base color is Baldwin "Lake" - a sort of reddish chocolate brown.




























No front-end shots - sorry.


----------



## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Dwight, 

They would not have drilled a blind hole into the boiler shell, if they did they would have created a weak spot/thin spot in the shell. Every one that I have seen was riveted through the shell.


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Andre Anderson on 18 Sep 2011 07:21 PM 
The bracket would not have been bolted, it would have been riveted to the boiler shell. 

- 



Sorry Andre. Only half right. Boiler shells were quite often drilled and tapped then studs fitted to attach stuff to. Yes, bolts into the shell (especially ones that had to be removed) were bad news, not because it might leak, but because if it WASN'T loose enough to leak, then it would more likely to seize - then break off while you were trying to do maintenance. 
Rivets were only used for things that were never supposed to come off again. If they needed more thickness than the shell could provide, a bushing was threaded or a plate was riveted in that spot.

FWIW, I've only worked around a few score of farm steam engines (and owned one!), about 8 or 9 vintage industrial boilers, crawled all over maybe 3 stripped loco boilers and photographed a few dozen more.... and build a few scale boilers myself ..... So there's lots of stuff I certainly DON'T know... but I know I've never seen nuts on the inside (water space) of any of them, or rivets used to attach anything where threaded studs were the more logical, or economical choice. but YMMV


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dumb question, wouldn't a through hole weaken metal more than a partial hole? 

Seems that the more metal, the stronger. 

Greg


----------



## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

The two Baldwin and one Climax that I helped install new flues in, the hand rail sub-brackets were all riveted on, the threaded studs were driven in and then peened over just like a rivet so while there may have been threads on the out side the inside was peend over just like a rivet. Stay bolts were as you say threaded into place but once there out came the torch and the hammers to peen the end down as most of the holding power was the peened heads. 

Greg, 

As far as a boiler is concerned say if the shell is 5/8" and then you drill a hole all the way through and then fill that hole with a rivet you have replaced the 5/8" with more metal that has heads on both sides of the boiler shell, this will help spread the strain. if you leave just 1/4" of metal in the hole and run a bolt in to that hole you have nothing on the inside to help take the strain.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nope, wrong. You have not replaced any metal, you now have a hole and the rivet in the metal adds no structural strength. The slug of metal in the hole is not part of the boiler. 

The boiler is weaker with the through hole. 

Talk to a structural engineer about this if you don't believe me. (Straight A college roommate was structural engineer, of course a degree in Physics will also tell you this is true) 

Regards, Greg 

Update: I see you deleted your comment. Remember the weakness around a hole is a crack, caused by flexing. Take a bar of metal. drill a hole in it. put a bolt in the hole. try to bend the bar, it will bend first at the hole. I hope this simple explanation will help you grasp the concept that unless welded, you would have a plug of metal that adds no strength. The through hole will be the major point of weakness. Less metal removed, less loss of strength.


----------



## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

deleted


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I HAVE the ASME section I (power boiler) code book from 1992 with 1993 supplements. it varies slightly from the National Board/FRA on a few issues, but I think the basic calcs are the same. I probably can look up the needed stress calculations for a full hole versus partial hole... should only take me a week to find and cross reference the @#$% thing, though. Unfortunately, the riveted construction book hasn't been published in.... over 40 years, so I don't have that one. 


As for studs being "driven in" have you ever replaced one? - or just looked at them? Having to pull the tubes then crawl inside and grind just to replace a broken/bent/worn stud then re-rivet and put in new tubes doesn't sound like a very cost effective option - unless there were huge stresses on it.... and handrails generally aren't that category. The studs on my engine DO seem to have an unthreaded shoulder in the middle for a "seal". though But leave me the out of checking through the boiler and engine construction reprints that I have to verify I'm right, though... please?









This guy is allegedly preparing to remove studs... with the torch on the outside









http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jyWEOKvGmSE/THMNbQK3I9I/AAAAAAAABrA/iv2vjz11cC8/s1600/DSC03298.jpg
And this old boy is allegedly removing dome studs...with a big a-- pipe wrench ....


Like I said though, I'd love to be proved wrong, and learn sumptin new.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

First off, I'm certainly no boiler expert. That being said, it seems to me there are a few things being ignored here. First, threads are extremely strong, and it only requires three full threads to achieve full strength. Depending upon thread pitch, that's not very deep. Second, the strain placed upon such an area, whether it be a blind tapped hole or a stud threaded through, is actually quite small. A 3/8" diameter stud, for example, has a major diameter surface area of only 0.110 square inches. If a boiler is running 150 psi, that's only 16.57 lbs of force being applied to the area trying to push the stud out. Add to that the fact that boiler scale will quickly accumulate around the threads if it leaks, sealing it up, and that sucker is locked in there in very short order. A blind hole should be even stronger since the native material is also there supporting the area. 

It's common practice when making small boilers to thread the stay bolts into the firebox before silver brazing. The forces trying to push the firebox out the bottom of the boiler are far in excess of anything applied to the kind of area we're talking about here. And the side stays are in shear, not tension or compression, and therefore far weaker.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was just being my usual self, just focusing on through hole vs. blind hole, of course! 

Yeah, you are not trying to tow the Queen Mary from the handrail stanchions! 

Probably the greater concern is stress points that over years could turn into cracks. 

But I am not a boiler expert either. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 Sep 2011 10:21 PM 
...
Yeah, you are not trying to tow the Queen Mary from the handrail stanchions! 
...
Regards, Greg 
Have you ever watched guys try to re-rail a ride on locomotive? Enthusiastic 'helpers' often DO try to lift it up by the handrails......


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Probably the greater concern is stress points that over years could turn into cracks. Perhaps... but there are many holes drilled through boilers just to rivet them together, stay them, etc.Enthusiastic 'helpers' often DO try to lift it up by the handrails......"Ah said, 'Shrink... Ah wanna kill!! Ah mean, I wanna KILL!!!" (Alice's Restaurant)


----------



## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight,

> "Ah said, 'Shrink... Ah wanna kill!! Ah mean, I wanna KILL!!!" (Alice's Restaurant)

And he started jumpin up and down with me, and we was both jumpin up and down yelling, KILL, KILL...

Best,
TJ


----------



## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

and they came in and pinned a medal on me and then sent me down the hall.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

"Ah wanna see blood'n'gore'n'guts'n'veins in muh teeth... eat dead, burnt bodies... Ah mean AH wanna KILL!!!!!" 

Nice to have enough similarly old farts around to recognize my references. hehehe


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

back to da subject... When building a model, finescale stuff always looks tres cool, but you should always expect that the 1:1 world will be a little* rough on it. (*cough)

Personally, I'd rather overbuild and perhaps sacrifice scale fidelity, than fix the same stuff repeatedly


----------



## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 21 Sep 2011 04:17 PM 


Nice to have enough similarly old farts around to recognize my references. hehehe 
That's because we are sitting on the group W bench telling stories.


----------



## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Maybe it would help the discussion if someone posted twenty-seven 8X10 color glossy photographs with the circles and arrows . . .


----------



## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Jim 

But then a blind machinist would look at those photos and try to drill holes in Dwight's boiler shell in some strange places.


----------

