# Thoughts on USAT PA1



## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Hi,

Anyone have any thoughts about the USAT PA1 diesels? Pro's, Con's? Likes? Dislikes? Other than it's kinda homely...IMHO. But it's so much so, I think I want one  Or would go with an Aristo GP40?


Nate


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Love them, I have 5. Never a problem with the "floppy axle"... they can use some additional weight, some have the typical "cracked axle" syndrome of all USAT locos. Easily fixed, good parts availablility. 

Cannot compare an older passenger loco to a modern road engine, very different beasts. The also motors are a lot more distinctive (and interesting to me) than the EMD's 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

I just did two of them, and I thought that they were cheap. No weights, and the bottom is thin plastic, no metal. The speaker is so close to the ground that it drags from time to time. We moved the speaker to the top, and it's 100 times better. You do have to make a box for the speaker. About 6 cubic in should work well for you. 

Loco Lee


----------



## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Also, it takes the 2.5 " speaker. I use the 8 ohm 5 watt. 

Loco Lee


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Never heard the Alco PA described as "homely" before! 
(seriously..first time I have_ ever_ heard that.) 
many people (including me) consider it the best looking diesel ever.. 
nothing else is even close..maybe the classic EMD F-unit runs a distant second..but thats about it. 
interesting.. 

I have an AA set of USA trains PA's in the LV scheme..
they will probably always be my absolute favorite engines! 
(both in 1/29 scale form, and in prototype form) 


Scot


----------



## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

*I think the Pa1's where nice looking. Santafe had the most of any road. They had 28 PA1 and 16 PB1. They also had some units reworked by EMD with new power. Not sure witch ones except #51 and its B unit where repowered that I know of. Also the first 2 that where sent out for testing went to Lehight Valley in June 1946. The first A-B-A went out for service to Santafe in Sept. 1946 and where put on display at the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel, which had its own private railroad siding Thanks Rex*


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Here we go again, the BEST looking loco is the E8 and 9s.. Hands down.. 

OK I will be good. My first Q when folks jump from a 4 axle to a 6 axle unit is,,,Is your RR ready to handle it. ?? Because once you start going "bigger" you don't seem to stop..


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Rex did you ever find my MoPac ones? Got to love these units. Later RJD


----------



## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Al Kramer was selling some MoPac ones, Geoff George bought a set the week before I bought my U.P. ones. He was selling the pa/pb for $249 he still has some for sale on Evil Bay under Anna Kramer not sure if any MoPac left? I think if you give him a poke he can get you about anything you want!! Just mu'd my set and set up a baggage car with QSI/G-wire and battery. Ran well today when I finally got it out to the outdoor layout after rain every day, and 6-9 inches of snow last week. I discovered a few things about running it though which were kinda a "pita" though, got to do some modifications both to the track and the couplers too!! Found out USA sliders DO NOT play well with Aristo and or LGB switches at all!! Gotta remove the slidders, not functional anyways, just left on rather than remove em, but I WILL remove em now. Believe the coupler problem is just track adjustment and leveling!! First day getting em out to the layout always a few tweaks on anything new you try to run. Regal


----------



## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 17 May 2010 06:29 PM 
Al Kramer was selling some MoPac ones, Geoff George bought a set the week before I bought my U.P. ones. He was selling the pa/pb for $249 he still has some for sale on Evil Bay under Anna Kramer not sure if any MoPac left? I think if you give him a poke he can get you about anything you want!! Just mu'd my set and set up a baggage car with QSI/G-wire and battery. Ran well today when I finally got it out to the outdoor layout after rain every day, and 6-9 inches of snow last week. I discovered a few things about running it though which were kinda a "pita" though, got to do some modifications both to the track and the couplers too!! Found out USA sliders DO NOT play well with Aristo and or LGB switches at all!! Gotta remove the slidders, not functional anyways, just left on rather than remove em, but I WILL remove em now. Believe the coupler problem is just track adjustment and leveling!! First day getting em out to the layout always a few tweaks on anything new you try to run. Regal 

That's the big reason I am considering a PA1, the ones on Ebay right are priced great and almost too good to pass up. But, RLD has some GP40 special runs for a great discount too. Maybe a coin toss?

Nate


----------



## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

PA's and Fa's were never my cup of tea, I never really like the looks compared to the F-3's or the E-8s but the PA's run great as they use the same set up as the SD-40 and the SD-70 Mac. a have plenty of these and they run great.
Al has a great deal on them on Ebay as Jerry said, I almost bought a Pr myself but Gosh there an ugly beasty..................


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

The USA PA's are a fine engine and will outpull any Aristo engine made.

As far as any problem with the power pickup skates USA has a updated design that should be installed. I looked around but couldn't find the part number. Call USA Trains and talk with Mike in parts as I'm sure they have them. Or Al Kramer can get them.

Just a note that I've installed 3.5" speakers in my 4 and of course MTH PS2


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Got em. Later RJD


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck, have you added weight to your PA's and did you keep or get rid of the traction tires? 

(I have 5 PA/PB's but always looking at what other's are doing) 

Speakers in the fuel tank, or pointing up in the body? 

Regards, Greg


----------



## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Chucks_Trains on 18 May 2010 08:51 AM 
The USA PA's are a fine engine and will outpull any Aristo engine made.

As far as any problem with the power pickup skates USA has a updated design that should be installed. I looked around but couldn't find the part number. Call USA Trains and talk with Mike in parts as I'm sure they have them. Or Al Kramer can get them.

Just a note that I've installed 3.5" speakers in my 4 and of course MTH PS2









Chuck, on the pa/pb i bought there is an extra set of skates, sliders, in the box,not remembering what they said but I believe it said to eliminate problems with others design on switches is what I remember. Greg that is probably what you and I were discussing yesterday!! Regal


----------



## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

The USA PAs can be found on Ebay fairly cheaply right now. Of course as far as homely, they all pale to a BL-2, the engine that should have been named "Sue". I sure wish someone would make one anyway!


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Been some great deals on PAs on Ebay


----------



## Phil12string (Jan 2, 2008)

I have two of the USA PA's in McGinnis New Haven colors. They're great engines and, IMHO, outperform my AC motive power, especially at low speed. Both of mine came with one broken "floppy" axle connection and replacement power trucks were sent under warranty by USA Trains VERY quickly. 
Only (minor) complaints I have; 
The cab light is WAY too bright-I disconnected it in both of my units. 
The main frame, with the body removed, is quite flimsy so be careful lifting the unit without the body. 
Be careful to remember the exact holes each frame screw comes from if you disassemble your unit(s) USA uses different size screws in each pair of holes. Also, be very careful of the "hanging" steps when you remove the body. They are easy to damage. 
Make sure you have a substantial power supply, especially if you plan to run more than one engine. They are real "amperage hogs" and will overwhelm a small power pack, if they move at all. 
It would have been nice is USA trains could have made some accomodation in the nose for those of us who use KaDee couplers as well 
Prices for PA's on eBay have been quite good recently-Go For It!


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have 5 PA's.

I put Kadee 831's on not difficult.

The hanging steps can be damaged easily.

I have step by step disassembly instructions, how to mount kadees, and other tips on my site:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...ainmenu-83*

Regards, Greg


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Now all I have to do is find the MoPac cars to go with my PA PB set. These units sure run good. Later RJD


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 18 May 2010 10:20 AM 
Chuck, have you added weight to your PA's and did you keep or get rid of the traction tires? 

(I have 5 PA/PB's but always looking at what other's are doing) 

Speakers in the fuel tank, or pointing up in the body? 

Regards, Greg 

Greg, I opted to keep the traction tires. 

Speaker in the body with the magnet in the tank..plenty of open grill to let the sound out.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Chuck, I have found that the speaker pointing up seems to give better highs and more realistic... 

Regards, Greg


----------



## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

I have an A-B-A set of PA's.
Battery powered.
I removed the drive line from the front and back flopping trailing trucks,effectively making them dummies. No effect to the pulling power at all.

Phoenix sound with the speakers in the bodies mounted facing up.
2 to 3 hours of run time on a pair of 14.4 V 3800 Mah Nimhs.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was thinking about removing that drive axle, and doing some traction tests. From the way it is suspended, I can's see how it can add significant traction. 

I would think that it might track better by the wheels rotating rather than being pushed. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a PA1 A-B-A set. The B unit has been made into a dummy. Both A units are equipped for battery operation with Airwire,Phoenix P5 sound and a Lenz decoder for the mars light. The speakers are mounted facing up. Battery access and control switches are accessable through the roof casting. I have used two 4 ohm speakers in series in my SD70's,one facing up and the other in the fuel tank. I think the single speaker in an enclosure facing up is just as effective. Both my PA1 A units have had the number boards replaced to match SP prototype along with 5 chime horn and wagon wheel antenna. These units should have dynamic brakes but so far the dynamic brake castings have not been made available as a part from USA. Charlie Jr. got a bit testy about me pestering them to make some available. Some USA roadnames do have them. If anyone has any I am interested.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Looking nice Paul, did you keep your traction tires also? Any split axle problems? 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
No traction tires for me,those axles are the first thing to go on any USA loco I buy. I have not had split axle problems on the PA's, I have on other locos though.


----------



## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
They actually run smoother with that floppy front and rear driver dummied up.

I tried them as factory at first and the trailing A would jerk a bit when starting up and tend to lag behind the A-B.
Now they start together as smooth as silk.

I also removed the same drive shaft on a set of SD-70Ms with the same results.

It is very easy to remove and put back if you are not satisfied with the way they run. I have noticed no lack of pulling power what-so-ever and am even convinced I'm using less battery power than if all the drivers were powered.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Paul, that's a strange place for a steering wheel.  Rookie trainer? "Hey, new kid--ya wanna drive this thing, the steering wheel's up there!" 

While I'm firmly of the opinion that the only good diesel is a dead diesel, I must admit Alco knew a thing or two about style. Even their ugly diesels looked nice. (Besides, Alcos are honorary steam engines for the prodigious amount of smoke they produced.) 

Later, 

K


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think I'll try it out, it makes sense that the driveshaft and flexible drive idea can only add more resistance to the drivetrain. 

I have to look at the center pivot location of the trucks this weekend, and see if it's where it can apply equal weight to the 2 axles that will remain powered. 

I'll check it out. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't forget to remove the "U" joint. It just pulls off. Otherwise it will flop around inside the motor block.

Then lube up the front dummy real good and the axle and wheel will roll better than new.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the tips! 

I'll add these to my PA page... The big tip that many people miss is lubing the slot in the plate that guides the floppy axle side to side. I've had derailments where this plate was so rough and not lubed, that the axle failed to follow track. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

I also removed the guide (metal piece with four screws on the bottom of the engine) and smoothed that out and added a little lube to it.
I forgot to mention that. Some were too tight and I adjusted the screw on the block a little.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, that tip is already on my site. I found you want to lube the plate on both sides. 

I know a lot of people hate these drives, and many people love them. I suspect a few of these simple tips would eliminate 90% of the problems that caused a negative opinion. 

The other 10% are people who have disassembled the drives and did not put the diamond shaped bearing blocks back in the proper orientation and chewed up the gears. Have found that TONS of times. Never lost a gear in a USAT loco. Did just repair my RS3 for the second time, chewed up a gear in the gearbox - again. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

So true!
I was recently asked to check out a friends PA A-B-A set and found he had not properly put the bearings back in after lubing it.

After I dummied up all six of the swivel blocks, and did the few other things that are posted above, they ran as smooth as silk together, and the amperage draw dropped dramatically. I also MU'd all three while I had them apart.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The interesting thing is that different USAT locos have these bearings in different orientations. The 3 axle locos have the point "up". 

The F units and most 2 axle locos have the "flat" up. 

Most of the people have let these get out of alignment when opening the blocks. That's why I reinforce "shimming" the block away from the chassis first. I use 4 small screwdrivers, one at each corner to hold the block firmly. That "seats" the axles (since the axle tips are held by the sideframes, which are attached to the chassis). 

Then removing the motor block cover will not let the axles slip out of place. 

Also, many people assume the orientation of the bearing blocks are the same, so they set one type to the wrong orientation. Doing this on the F units reduces the gear mesh and tears up the gears in no time. 

Doing this on the 3 axle units puts too much pressure on the gears, and the excessive force wears them out, and as you found, makes excessive noise and power draw. 

I've traced every "angry owner" back to cracked axles or improper assembly. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

You can also remove the truck and then remove the top cover and look down inside to see which way the bearings are installed...though that's the hard way...









I do the Marty and plate the truck bottom and leave the floppy axle hooked up..makes it easier to put on the raiils...








Well this is a SD40-2 motor truck but same idea...


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck, approximately what minimum diameter curve can you take with the "locked" axle? Not a lot of side to side play like the aristos... 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, All I can say is my mininum radius curves are 6' and they handle that with no problem. Infact they'll go tighter as the swing isn't maxed out yet..if that helps any


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's nice to know firsthand from someone who has done it. My minimum is 5' radius, so I could be stuck.. 

Do you have any problems with vertical curves now that you have made a rigid truck? 

I learned a lot about Aristo 3 axle trucks when I tried wheels with smaller flanges. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, I don't have any idea as all my curves are horizontal...I mean my layout is level.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Got it, was just wondering, that would be my only concern. 

Learned some very interesting stuff putting smaller flanges on the rigid truck Aristo 3 axle block. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 30 May 2010 12:15 PM 
The interesting thing is that different USAT locos have these bearings in different orientations. The 3 axle locos have the point "up". 

The F units and most 2 axle locos have the "flat" up. 

Most of the people have let these get out of alignment when opening the blocks. That's why I reinforce "shimming" the block away from the chassis first. I use 4 small screwdrivers, one at each corner to hold the block firmly. That "seats" the axles (since the axle tips are held by the sideframes, which are attached to the chassis). 

Then removing the motor block cover will not let the axles slip out of place. 

Also, many people assume the orientation of the bearing blocks are the same, so they set one type to the wrong orientation. Doing this on the F units reduces the gear mesh and tears up the gears in no time. 

Doing this on the 3 axle units puts too much pressure on the gears, and the excessive force wears them out, and as you found, makes excessive noise and power draw. 

I've traced every "angry owner" back to cracked axles or improper assembly. 

Regards, Greg 
Greg... I wonder if you could elaborate just a bit more on the second paragraph that I've highlighted red. Does "doing this" refer to putting the bearings flat in the 3 axle trucks rather than install them point "up" or in the diamond shape? I have an SD70 with 4 blown idler gears and would like to "fix" them right. 

Thanks for any input. 

PS.... I just checked your site for the Fairplex images and couldn't find them. Where'd I miss them?????


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I've never gave it a thought, putting smaller flange wheels on the Aristo 3 axle drive block. I have often thought about swapping out some Dash-9 drives with USA SD70 drives..or maybe it was SD40 drives. I forgot as they're all a little different with different wheel sizes & wheel base. But my main reason being the USA stuff is more service friendly..and USA always has parts in stock


----------



## oldmainlinejohnny (Jun 6, 2010)

I have 2 they run great.just wish I could blacken the wheels.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Stan, the 2 axle diesels like the F3 have the "flat side" up when you have removed the motor block cover, i.e. parallel the the bottom of the motor block. 

The 3 axle locos have the "point up", i.e. oriented like a diamond, not like a box. All 3 axles are oriented like this. I've found a lot of misinformation on the web, and took a number of locos apart very carefully to see what the "factory orientation" is. 

But!! when people pull them apart, if you don't have the motor block secured AWAY from the chassis, the bushings can shift JUST as you remove the motor block cover, and change orientation. I've done this to myself several times until I understood how the system works. 

I wedge the block away from the chassis tightly with 4 screwdrivers, one under each corner of the motor block. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. more fairplex images still to be posted..


----------

