# F scale standard gauge vs Gauge 3 (Noob question)



## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Ok ive googled this a bit but couldn't find a definitive answer. (or rather i lacked the cognitive power to understand what i read)
Lets say im wanting to build a 1:20th scale railroad using 45mm LGB track, and a bachmann bighauler 4-6-0 narrow gauge that's supposedly 1:22th scale.
And i wanted to ad some standard gauge trains, so i ad a third rail with the gap of about 70mm. Would that be the same scale as the old Gauge III model trains or F scale?

Also unrelated.... as a matter of opinion, do the 1:29th trains from USA and Aristocraft look OK running on the LGB track?


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

To the second part of your question, absolutely yes.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm not a practicing expert on this but as far as I can work out Gauge III is 2-1/2" gauge or 63.5mm (64mm?). For standard gauge modelling which works out to be close to 1:22.5 (56.5" / 2.5" = 22.6). 
F scale came about an entirely different way. Fn3 was originally derived from correct scale modelling of 3 ft gauge prototypes on the existing and popular 45mm gauge model track. (3ft or 914.4mm / 45mm = 20.32). 
When F scale is applied to standard gauge modelling it works out to be 70.64mm gauge model track.
Two birds of a different feather but the two model standard gauges are fairly close to each other.

Big Haulers are narrow gauge model trains of approximately 1:22.5~1:24 scale running on 45mm gauge model track. It is therefore not an accurate scale/gauge combination for North American 3ft narrow gauge prototypes. The gauge of 45mm was already established by LGB and I suspect Bachmann made the Big Hauler range to be roughly in scale with LGB models of 1:22.5. 
1:24 scale is also used for narrow gauge models running on 45mm gauge track but technically is only correct for 3' 6" gauge prototypes or what is known as Cape Gauge.

Anyway, that's my understanding of it. Choose your poison! 

Andrew


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

All due respect to Mike and LGB, I think USAT and A/C looks even better on Code 250 track, rather than the bigger track. But that can be argued til we're all "blue in the face". It's your hobby, so you can do what you like.

JackM


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

OldNoob said:


> Ok ive googled this a bit but couldn't find a definitive answer. (or rather i lacked the cognitive power to understand what i read)
> Lets say im wanting to build a 1:20th scale railroad using 45mm LGB track, and a bachmann bighauler 4-6-0 narrow gauge that's supposedly 1:22th scale.
> And i wanted to ad some standard gauge trains, so i ad a third rail with the gap of about 70mm. Would that be the same scale as the old Gauge III model trains or F scale?


Standard gauge in F-scale works out to 70.69mm, so make it 71mm 

Gauge III, and Gauge III trains would really have no relation to F-scale standard gauge.
They have a different track gauge, and a different scale. 
consider them completely unrelated to F-scale standard gauge.

Gauge III has a model track gauge of 2.5", 63.5mm.
It seems to have a couple different scales:
http://www.gauge3.org.uk/about-gauge-3
1/24 scale roughly.

While F-scale standard gauge has a model track gauge of 2.8", 71mm.
and a scale of 1/20.3

I suppose those are close, but not really the same.
If you are actually going to go to the trouble to model F-scale standard gauge, might as well do it exact!  no need to mess with Gauge III IMO..I would just consider them separate and unrelated.

Scot


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

OldNoob said:


> Ok ive googled this a bit but couldn't find a definitive answer. (or rather i lacked the cognitive power to understand what i read)
> Lets say im wanting to build a 1:20th scale railroad using 45mm LGB track, and a bachmann bighauler 4-6-0 narrow gauge that's supposedly 1:22th scale.
> And i wanted to ad some standard gauge trains, so i ad a third rail with the gap of about 70mm. Would that be the same scale as the old Gauge III model trains or F scale?
> 
> Also unrelated.... as a matter of opinion, do the 1:29th trains from USA and Aristocraft look OK running on the LGB track?


With due respect to my friends who find gauge-3 confusing, let me state categorically that Gauge-3 models (mostly in the UK) are 1:22.5. They have been that scale since gauges 1,2,3 were invented more than a hundred years ago.

Garden Railway Supply in England has offered conventional electric standard gauge models on gauge-3 (64mm) track for a while. Kingscale Models commissioned a range of Gauge 3 live steam models in 1:22.5. 
http://www.grsuk.com/Kingscale_-_Gauge_3-C074000

F scale is 1:20.3 and is close to 1:22.5. But if you ever see Pete Jobusch's F scale ET&WNC 4-6-0 (same prototype as the Bachmann model) you will be struck by its size - much larger than the 1:22.5 version.

Dave Queener at Cumberland Model Engineering has long been a proponent of F scale standard gauge. His website discusses Gauge 3 versus F scale, and supplies various items for F scale standard gauge, including a boxcar kit (which I built for my EBT trains,) and various parts.
http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/

The Bachmann GE center cab diesel is F scale (and no longer available,) was made (prototype) in many gauges, and you can swap the axles to make it run on F scale std gauge.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't think anyone who has seen the difference between 250 and 332 would argue that 250 looks better.

Is it the right choice for a particular individual would be (and has been) the point of contention.

Greg



JackM said:


> All due respect to Mike and LGB, I think USAT and A/C looks even better on Code 250 track, rather than the bigger track. But that can be argued til we're all "blue in the face". It's your hobby, so you can do what you like.
> 
> JackM


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Thanks for all the insights everyone.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> With due respect to my friends who find gauge-3 confusing, let me state categorically that Gauge-3 models (mostly in the UK) are 1:22.5. They have been that scale since gauges 1,2,3 were invented more than a hundred years ago.


To confuse things a bit more, 1:22.5 scale models running on 64mm gauge track are called Gauge-3 only in the UK (and maybe the colonies? ha, ha)

In Europe that scale/gauge combination is called gauge 2 or II (Roman numerals).
That's also where the original LGB designator comes from, 2m or IIm, scale 1:22.5 running on prototype Meter gauge track which happens to work out to 45mm gauge.
http://www.spur-ii.de/english.html


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Old Noob,

Check this link: http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/KonradGallery.html

I visited George at his home a few years ago when he was building this massive 1:20.3 standard gauge engine. Saw it completed a couple of years ago. Beautiful and very large model!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

krs said:


> To confuse things a bit more, 1:22.5 scale models running on 64mm gauge track are called Gauge-3 only in the UK (and maybe the colonies? ha, ha)
> 
> In Europe that scale/gauge combination is called gauge 2 or II (Roman numerals).
> That's also where the original LGB designator comes from, 2m or IIm, scale 1:22.5 running on prototype Meter gauge track which happens to work out to 45mm gauge.
> http://www.spur-ii.de/english.html


Yes. Gauge-2 (2.25 in) is so close to Gauge 3 that it has been dropped (though there are one or two english gauge-2 layouts around, still.) The Europeans not only dropped usage, but purloined the designation as 1:22.5 - thank heaven they call it "Spur II" so we know they mean Gauge-3. (I've never seen LGB use "2m" - it's always "IIm" ?)

And you thought Gauge-1 was confusing. . .


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Up to gauge I all countries seem to be pretty much in sync where scale and gauge of model trains is concerned, biggest deviation is O-gauge which is 1:48 in some countries and 1:45 in others.
But for larger scales the UK and Continental Europe divert - Europe has a Gauge-3 model scale as well, but those are 1:16 scale trains running on 89mm gauge track.

And while it is true that Marklin coined the terms Gauge 1, 2 and 3, I'm not sure how relevant that actually is today because gauge was measured differently in those days - it was the distance between the centres of the railheads, not the two inner edges as today.

So back to the original topic, if one talks about Gauge 3, one needs to know which countries model railways they are referring to.

NEM, which stands for Standards of European Model Railroads (published by MOROP which is more or less the equivalent of NMRA) publishes a nice comprehensive table of scales and gauges http://www.morop.org/en/normes/nem010_en.pdf
Not sure why the UK doesn't follow that for the larger scales.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Pete Thornton said:


> ...(I've never seen LGB use "2m" - it's always "IIm" ?)
> 
> ...



when the germans established their classification, roman numbers where still widely used. - and they never changed from roman to latin numbers. so it is till today Spur (gauge) I, II, III, IV and so on. only exceptions were 0 (Zero) ((in america mutated to "O")) and "half zero" = H0.

a hundred years ago it was 
0 = 1:45
I = 1:32 
II = 1:22.5
III = 1:16
IV = 1:11
(each roughly 1.4 times larger than the last)

later they added half 0 - 1:87 (and nobody seems to know, why they didn't make it 1:90...
... save you multiply 1:45 with 1.4 = 63 and that again by 1.4 = 1:88.2)



the Brits are a different case alltogether.
they have a different size of 0/O and of 00/OO.("double O" their equivalent to H0)


for those, who like to suffer, here a table: http://kormsen.info/scales/


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

krs said:


> Up to gauge I all countries seem to be pretty much in sync where scale and gauge of model trains is concerned, biggest deviation is O-gauge which is 1:48 in some countries and 1:45 in others.


The scale associated with 0 gauge is 1:48 in the USA, 1:45 in Germany and 1:43.5 in England and France. The scale associated with H0/00 gauge (16.5 mm track-width) is 1:87 except in England where it is 1:76. The scale associated with N gauge is 1:160 except in England where it is 1:148. So it seems not only the larger gauges where there is diversion.

Regards
Fred


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> Yes. Gauge-2 (2.25 in) is so close to Gauge 3 that it has been dropped (though there are one or two english gauge-2 layouts around, still.)


Pete,
Just to clarify, Gauge 2 is a gauge of 2".
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

kormsen said:


> II = 1:22.5


Also to clarify, Gauge 2 or II is a scale of approx 1/28 for 'regular' models (not narrow ones)
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

David Leech said:


> Also to clarify, Gauge 2 or II is a scale of approx 1/28 for 'regular' models (not narrow ones)
> All the best,
> David Leech, Delta, Canada


since when? and according to whom?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

David Leech said:


> Also to clarify, Gauge 2 or II is a scale of approx 1/28 for 'regular' models (not narrow ones)
> All the best,
> David Leech, Delta, Canada


Ah, you walked right in to that one. Gauge II is the european Gauge-3, or 1:22.5. Gauge-2 might be 1:28-ish, but I wouldn't call it "II".


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

fredlub said:


> The scale associated with H0/00 gauge (16.5 mm track-width) is 1:87 except in England where it is 1:76.


I always considered H0 and 00 two very distinct scales even though those trains run on the same gauge track.
00 scale was created in the early days of H0 to be a bit bigger than H0 (ie 1:76 vs 1:87) because the (prototype) British locomotives were smaller than the European ones and the smallest motors at the time would not fit into true-scale 1:87 scale models of the British locos so those models had to be made a bit bigger.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> Ah, you walked right in to that one. Gauge II is the european Gauge-3, or 1:22.5. Gauge-2 might be 1:28-ish, but I wouldn't call it "II".


Pete, do you have any idea why the UK stuck to the "Gauge 3" designator for 1:22.5 scale when the rest of the world decided to call that scale "Scale II?

BTW - I think we are starting to mix up scale and gauge in this discussion.
These letter "designators" really refer to a scale/gauge combination.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

kormsen said:


> since when? and according to whom?


Well, if 2" = 4' 8 ½" then 56.5 divided by 2 = 28.25.
End of discussion!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

_End of discussion!_

well, on that point i can fully agree with you!


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