# ABBA - MU them or use same loco ID?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

When MUing locos for an AB, ABA or ABBA I usually just use the same Loco ID for the A unit decoders rather than to MU multiple Loco ID's. 

Usually I use an AB or ABA or ABBA as a single unit so it is simpler to use the same ID for both A units.

I can see the benefit of MUing them if I wanted to split up the A units and use them as single locos but that uses up the precious few Loco ID's available and increases the risk of multiple single locos using the same Loco ID. 

Are there any other benefits to MUing locos using different Loco ID's other than when running them as separate locos?

I have run into a problem with LGB 23900's when running a pair with the same Loco ID (not always wanting to run at the same speed) but I do not see how MUing them would be any better.

Ideas?

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, using normal, modern DCC I would give you a particular answer.

But you have saddled yourself with a pre-DCC antiquated, limited system.

With the number of locos you have and the extreme limitation of available numbers, I believe you have no choice but to share ID's.

Greg

(by the way, there are significant advantages to consisting locomotives, especially advanced consisting, and with sound, but I don't believe that it's worth going into since your hardware does not support many features)


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Since most LGB decoders do not support consisting, duplicate addressing is the only way to go.
Note that the original 55020 LENZ decoder had only the first 4 CV to be writable and worked in serial mode only. Later 55020 versions were parallel and had many more features.


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## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> Since most LGB decoders do not support consisting, duplicate addressing is the only way to go.


Just out of interest, I believe NCE systems support "old style consisting" - think I've also seen this referred to as "brute force consisting"? - whereby the locos retain their normal addresses and the command station or throttle is set up to control a group of addresses as a consist. Do any other DCC systems support this style of consisting?

I know it's academic as going by other recent threads (and as Greg has mentioned), Jerry seems to be set on sticking with obsolete very limited MTS equipment.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry is not just sticking with old equipment, he has engines that have very old LGB decoders which do run just great on the old MTS systems.
He does have the Massoth Navigator with a much newer system/

His issue is the amount of rolling stock with the old decoders (lots of time and $$ to upgrade something that is not broke) plus multiple old systems being used.

I am newer to this hobby than Jerry and would not use the older decoders that lock one to 14 speed steps or serial interface, but when Jerry first went to LGB's MTS system that was all there was and why fix what is not broke!!


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

As usual Dan pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I bought the Massoth Navigator 1210Z Central Station and PC Module mainly because Massoth made most of the LGB electronics other than Lenz who made the original Central Station.

A good thing about LGB is that I've had a decoder or two go bad and a sound unit that went bad but I found inexpensive used replacements from Train-Li.

I don't ask for much from my train sounds other than chuff, bell and whistle. If I have that the rest is not that important to me.

With the Navigators, 1210Z and both Massoth's PC Module & DCC Programming software along with LGB's 55045 (along with great help from Dan and Mahommed) I am finding that I am getting from up to 128 to even up to 4 digit Loco ID's.

It seems that most of the limitations were less due to the decoders than my lack of skill (I never was that interested in DCC/MTS) and limits of the 55015/55016 remotes.

My primary limitation was the 5 amp LGB limit.

The 1210Z gives me 12 amps and I learned I can use up to 3 of my LGB 55090 Boosters (5 amps each) with it giving me up to 27 amps with my LGB/DiMAX/Massoth system.

What this means is that I do not have to turn off sidings with trains on them to avoid the locos & lights exceeding the 5 amp limit.

So far even the 55020's have accepted up to 128 Loco ID's and 28 steps (CV-29 = 6).

Setting CV-29 = 38 has not worked yet but I am learning & making progress.

The graphics sold me on Aristo's Revolution and the graphics sold me on Massoth's Navigator.

I'm not saddeling myself with anything. Track power still works with everything, Revolutions work great with my Aristo locos and when I realized the 55015/55016 were limiting me to 15 - 24 loco ID's I replaced them and the Central Stations with Massoth Navigators and 1210Z Central Station.

I've had over 20 years use out of the LGB trains, Central Stations and remotes. They can be used on other layouts or I may put them on eBay. One way or another they have been great to have owned.

For anyone with fewer than 16 Locos with decoders the LGB 55016 Loco Remotes, and for those with fewer than 24 Locos with decoders, the LGB 55015 Universal Remotes and LGB Central Stations II & III would work fine (I don't notice that much difference between 14 & 28 steps - and even Serial operation works pretty well IMHO).

It was more a case of frustration rather than necessity that led to my switch to Massoth but I have no regrets.

At 71 I have moved to a different level of preferences. 

Tomorrow I believe I will discover my 23900's can handle up to 128 Loco ID's & 28 steps and MUing with the Massoth equipment.

Days are becoming exciting rather than frustrating.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Or you can go with what I am planning, the 20 amp Zimo system that will run everything you have. Compared to the cost the rolling stock, the control system is inexpensive no matter what the price.

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, when programming larger numbers in locos (CV29=38) you need to enter the loco number in CV 17 and 18.
This is not straight forward as CV17 starts with the number 192, not 0 and is the engine number divided by 256 added to 192. The remainder is placed in CV 18. THere are calculators on the web for doing this, but iof you are familiar with math it is easy to figure out. Our train IDs are in decimal format but electronics are in hexadecimal format for numbering our trains in the decoders.
Example for engine number 256: CV17=193, cv 18 =0
511: CV17=193, cv 18=255
512: CV17=194, cv 18=0


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> Jerry, when programming larger numbers in locos (CV29=38) you need to enter the loco number in CV 17 and 18.
> This is not straight forward as CV17 starts with the number 192, not 0 and is the engine number divided by 256 added to 192. The remainder is placed in CV 18. THere are calculators on the web for doing this, but iof you are familiar with math it is easy to figure out. Our train IDs are in decimal format but electronics are in hexadecimal format for numbering our trains in the decoders.
> Example for engine number 256: CV17=193, cv 18 =0
> 511: CV17=193, cv 18=255
> 512: CV17=194, cv 18=0


Hi Dan,

I tried it a few days ago using the DigiTrax calculator http://www.digitrax.com/support/cv/calculators/ but for some reason it did not work. For now, if I can get 128 Loco ID's that is good enough.

After I get everything possible working with 128 Loco IDs I can then work on higher numbers (nice but not necessary).

Part of the problem is not knowing if the decoders I am using are or are not OK - or if they are OK but incapable of doing what I am trying to do with them.

Yesterday was the turning point. Now I can drive a Loco or train onto the programming track, use the LGB and Massoth hardware and software, and with the computers, see the programming results - then confirm the results by switching the programming track back to mainline power with the 1210Z and Navigators.

Today I will see about double heading the Loco's - particularly the F7A's in ABBA configuration.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

In my case Zimo is a day late and a dollar short. Massoth designed & built the decoders in my LGB equipment. LGB partnered with Massoth with LGB's Central Station III with its DiMAX connection for the Massoth Navigator and Massoth is backwards compatible with both serial and parallel capability.

Add to this the Massoth Transducer that allows me to connect with my LGB wireless receivers, transmitters and remotes and the 1210Z Central Station which lets me plug in my LGB 55090 Boosters using my LGB 50111 power supplies.

Add to this, Mohammed has never failed to answer his phone when I called for help with the Massoth equipment I bought from him and even Daniel Massoth has given me quick responses to questions I've had and provided information on the Massoth hotline.

Train-Li and Dan have also been there for me when I needed help with my LGB products.

If I was looking for cheap I would not have LGB and Massoth. For me what is important is who do I call for help when I have a question or a problem?

With me, Zimo never have a chance. I don't know anything about Zimo products (good or bad) but I doubt they have any plug and play intercapability with my LGB products.

TrainLi apparently sells Zimo and I like Axel, Joane and Dan. If I ever have a problem that Massoth cannot solve I will probably contact them about what Zimo may have to offer.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

This was also helpful but while I could download it and also put it in iBooks, I could not print it due to it being a secured PDF.


Kalmbach Publishing:

From: "DCC Projects & Applications - Volume 3"

https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/~/media/store/previews/12486spread.pdf

I don't think there is any problem with printing a link here since it is on the Internet for anyone to look at and download.

https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/garden-railroading/12486__DCC-Projects--Applications-Vol-3


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Jerry McColgan said:


> Tomorrow I believe I will discover my 23900's can handle up to 128 Loco ID's & 28 steps and MUing with the Massoth equipment.


I guessed right. Yesterday I set up the 23900's and the streetcars and some F7A's - all with triple digit ID's & 28 steps. I also got an old F7A decoder working (triple digit Loco ID and 28 steps) when I realized I had not reset the dip switches on the circuitboard.

Finally I was able to confirm that the decoder in another F7A that I thought was bad really is bad so I won't be wasting any more time on it.

Double heading is possible but I haven't figured out how to do it yet.

I still have not figured out how the decoders work with LGB's F7A's and F7B's - does the B unit somehow need a decoder? So far a single XL decoder works fine with an F7AB (two XL's for an ABBA - in the A units) but how many decoders and how strong would they have to be to run an F7ABBBBBBA (since an F7B has a dual sound unit, that amounts to 12 sound units plus 2 powered A units plus the See-Thru's flashing lights in 8 units)? 

Today I should find out.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

No luck (no time) with the double heading yet. I got sidetracked with setting the steam locos up with the new Navigator. It's nice that the new software updated my old Navigator to be identical with the new navigator which seems to make it a lot easier to use. Better still, the graphic images of the LGB engines will make it very easy to flip from one to the other without having to remember loco IDs etc. 

With some locos the Massoth PC Module seems to work best but with others the LGB 55045 seems to work better.

I was somewhat shocked to see the amps climb as I turned power on various sidings. Even with DCC/MTS I will probably have to stick with turning power off on sidings that I am not using. I soon noticed and remembered putting MRC AD322 decoders in the first combine or coach in a consist to enable me to turn all the lights out until I am ready to run the train.

At least with the drive-on programming track I am finally making good progress in reprogramming loco's in the old 00–22 range up to higher loco IDs thus eliminating duplication of Loco IDs. So far I have not been successful in programming any additional locos to four digit addresses.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, just a suggestion, there are "short" addresses and "long" addresses.

You can indeed have a "long" address of 3, and there is overlap between the address ranges. 

I think when you say 3 digit addresses, you mean short addresses, which are 1-127, whereas long addresses are 1-9999.

A 3 digit address could be either. The decoder itself (most modern ones) can actually have THREE different addresses in it at the same time, even though you are only "talking to it" with one of the 3...

short address
long address 
consist address

Since you are posting and asking questions, DCC people will better understand you if you use the correct definitions, which are not ambiguous.

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

As mentioned I am asking questions rather than giving advice so folks need to know and accept that I don't know the proper definitions just as I had no idea a decoder could hold three different addresses. I have no idea how I would access each of those three addresses.

By the same token I am on a mission to find out how to get my decoder equipped trains to work under DCC on my layouts. My memory is too weak and my motivation is too low to attempt to become an expert or even qualified on DCC technical facts and definitions (beyond my own personal needs).

For my level of expertise 0-15 or 00-22 equal two digit capability; 1-128 equals 3 digit capability and 1000-9999 equals 4 digit capabilities. Apparently some decoders can handle over 10,000 addresses. If I could do that I would consider them five digit capable.

The only way this works for me so far is that some decoders will not accept 99. For me that takes them out of the 128 address capability and makes them two digits. They might be 1-15 or 00–22 but to me that means Loco Remote capable (1-15) or Universal Remote capable (00-22). It also makes them LGB Central Station II or Central Station III capable. I may use them on smaller or portable playoffs.

There also are locomotives/decoders that I can program with my Massoth PC Module using their DCC Programming software but not with the LGB 55045 with MTS or the DCC Programming software. Others can be programmed with the LGB 55045 and MTS or DCC Programming software but not with the Massoth PC module.

Follow up programming is being done on the mainline with the Massoth Navigators and1210Z to add the loco model image and loco 10 digit name to each loco programmed.

Three or four digit decoders to me means forget using the Local and Universal Remotes and the LGB Central Stations and stick with the Massoth 1210Z and Navigators for those decoders and don't waste them on two digit addresses.

The confusion of decoders and programming hardware and software overwhelms any need for technical terminology precision for me. 

Knowing there are long, short and consist addresses is of no value to me with my lack of knowledge of how to access and use those addresses.

This may be politically incorrect but it is a language that makes sense to me and that I understand.

I welcome helpful advice, corrections and suggestions as long as they bring me closer to my goal without involving unnecessary effort on my part.

Limited DCC education is a necessary step for me to reach my goals but a DCC education is not a goal in itself for me. I trust no one will take offense were no offense is intended. Anything I learn today may be forgotten tomorrow. What I post today is intended for my own future reminder and refreshment as well as possibly being of assistance to others. Several times recently I have searched MLS for an answer to something only to come up with something I posted years ago. MLS has become a memory bank for me.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK Jerry, I gave you advice on how to use definitions accepted by the DCC community, and I realize and appreciate that you insisting on using your own definitions is your right.

But realize you "welcome advice" and yet decide to use your own definitions on something so fundamental as DCC addressing.

This means you will be causing confusion when someone asks you if your "2 digit" address of "25" is a long or short address.

It makes a LOT of difference in how things work, and will lead to confusion and wrong answers.

I tried to be helpful, but seems that this needs to be on your own terms, even if at odds with the rest of the DCC community.

I'll try to continue to help, but when we get to stuff like this, I guess I should just not help at all.

Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

"I'll try to continue to help, but when we get to stuff like this, I guess I should just not help at all."

Come on Greg.

Don't talk down to me. It does not work and I don't give...

We both know we were *emphatically told* by MLS management years ago to avoid having anything to do with each other (fine with me). Years ago you told me that you had locked me out of your email (fine with me). 

YOU were the reason I left MLS years ago.

I have NEVER wanted, NEVER needed and NEVER asked for your advice ON ANYTHING but I have tried to pleasantly ignore you.

When I rejoined MLS I advised the new management of our past conflicts so there is no need to contact them but feel free to do so.

No need to guess anything. I think there are 3,000+ members of MLS so I think I can manage with help from only 2,999 of them (4 digit address).

Bye (?).

Jerry


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## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

Oh dear, shame you two guys have this "history". 

Greg does have a point though: in the decoder itself there is a difference between "short" and "long" address, and yet there is overlap in the address range that is supported by each type of address, so it is potentially confusing for many of us if you're not using the "generally expected" terminology. 

I'm not a user of the LGB or Massoth decoder programming software, I use JMRI DecoderPro where it's plain to see which type of address (long or short) that you're assigning. 

Interestingly, I've just looked at an image showing a typical programming page of the LGB software, and it looks like you have the choice of 
Loco Address: "<128" or ">=128". 
So Jerry, I can see that if you're using this LGB software then you may not have encountered the terms "short" and "long" for addresses. As you're given two distinct choices, I would assume that if you're using "<128" then it's a short address you're programming, if you're choosing ">=128" then it's a long address. 

I'm struggling to find an equivalent image of the Massoth decoder programming software, but from what I have seen it doesn't appear to have the same "<128" or ">=128" choices that the LGB software allows? It's possible the Massoth software always assumes a short address for anything less than 128? Maybe someone who uses and is familiar with this software can confirm?

I guess this is a case of LGB & Massoth trying to be helpful by hiding a little bit of the complexity of address programming, but by doing so they're making it more difficult for users of other DCC systems to be sure we're "talking the same language".

Nick (in the UK)


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

ntpntpntp said:


> I'm not a user of the LGB or Massoth decoder programming software, I use JMRI DecoderPro where it's plain to see which type of address (long or short) that you're assigning.
> 
> Interestingly, I've just looked at an image showing a typical programming page of the LGB software, and it looks like you have the choice of
> Loco Address: "<128" or ">=128".
> So Jerry, I can see that if you're using this LGB software then you may not have encountered the terms "short" and "long" for addresses. As you're given two distinct choices, I would assume that if you're using "<128" then it's a short address you're programming, if you're choosing ">=128" then it's a long address.


Hi Nick,

My use of the Digitrax DCS200 will eventually lead me to the JMRI DecoderPro. I have started looking into it for the Digitrax, NCE and MRC decoders etc. but it will have to wait for me to get the LGB & Massoth decoders programmed first.

As you know I had started a topic on the JMRI DecoderPro but so far I have not had time to do anything with it.

http://forums.mylargescale.com/39-d...nyone-using-jmri-decoderpro-panelpro-etc.html

I don't recall either LGB or Massoth referencing long or short addresses other than as you mentioned <128" then it's a short address you're programming, if you're choosing ">=128" then it's a long address. The LGB MTS 6.0 software will not allow (impossible to enter) a CV-1 higher than 99 (2 digits). If you try to set CV-29 to 6 or 38 the software issues a warning (in red) against trying to program higher than 22. If you ignore the warning, the decoder does not get programmed or the results are unpredictable. LGB's MTS 6.0 will not try to program anything that is beyond the capabilities of the LGB Central Stations II or III. As far as MTS 6.0 is concerned, long or 4 digit addresses do not exist - they are not part of the MTS language.

The main difference (to me) is that the Massoth DCC Programming software displays the entire CV range and allows entering anything into any CV (whether the decoder accepts that data is another matter entirely).

Massoth software only looks for Massoth or LGB decoders & LGB software only looks for LGB decoders. Often the decoder being used is not shown or detected by the software or the decoder type may be detected but not the version of the decoder. Sometimes multiple checks of a decoder will display different decoders or different versions. A Massoth XL may show up as a 55020 or 55021 but LGB MTS 6.0 does not recognize it (or anything) as Massoth.

I use the Digitrax CV Calculators: http://www.digitrax.com/support/cv/calculators/ they do not mention long and short or consist addresses. They simply offer 2 and 4 digit addresses and how to set CV-29/17/18:

Features Controlled by CV29

Speed step control: Advanced Mode (28/128 speed steps) or Standard Mode (14 speed steps).

Speed table ON or OFF

Analog mode conversion ON or OFF

Normal Direction of Travel (NDOT)

2 digit addressing or 4 digit addressing

The "generally expected terminology" does not seem to be part of the LGB or Massoth or even the Digitrax terminology.

I did not invent 2 digit and 4 digit addressing. I simply chose to use the terminology the Digitrax software uses, To me that is more logical and easier to remember than less definitive words like "short" and "long" - words that LGB, Massoth and Digitrax seem to have discarded or never used. My digital world is defined by LGB, Massoth and Digitrax because that happens to be what I chose to buy.

Please keep in mind that once I finish with the necessary programming my plan is to forget everything and just pick up the Massoth Navigators or LGB Loco Remotes or LGB Universal Remotes or DigiTrax DT402D or Aristo Revolutions or manual throttles and drive my trains. I only need a GPS to find somewhere the first time - then I just put a key in the ignition of something and start driving until I get there.

As a pilot looking for an airport, crash, or fire I used to read & report longitude & latitude. Today pilots fly the aircraft and let the GPS calculate the details.

All this programming "stuff" is something I would like to have avoided but the LGB & Massoth instructions leave gaps where I need to find info elsewhere. Dan has been a great help because he seems to understand the LGB stuff better than anyone and Mahommed seems to understand everything Massoth better than anyone - more important to me is that they have been so willing and able to offer me unlimited help in getting my trains decoded.

I have never found MLS to be a source of much useful information regarding LGB or Massoth products and software (Dan has become a great resource). I don't recall DigiTrax products ever being discussed here. In HO locally DigiTrax seems to be the dominant brand and the Digitrax Dealer/Trainer (closer than any G Gauge dealer) has been a friend for almost 20 years (I buy my Digitrax stuff from him and his best friend has a large HO layout and is just a few miles away).

I guess this is a case of LGB & Massoth trying to be helpful by hiding a little bit of the complexity of address programming

I totally agree. Between the LGB MTS; Massoth PC Module; 1210Z Central Station; Navigators; and Digitrax CV Calculator the question seems to be (for those of us not using other brands of DCC) just how important "generally expected terminology" is? The answer seems to be that LGB, Massoth & Digitrax have no interest in long, short and consist address terminology - just how to program CV-1, CV-29, CV-17 and CV-18. That's simple and good enough for me.

Thanks for your information.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Jerry McColgan said:


> I still have not figured out how the decoders work with LGB's F7A's and F7B's - does the B unit somehow need a decoder? So far a single XL decoder works fine with an F7AB (two XL's for an ABBA - in the A units) but how many decoders and how strong would they have to be to run an F7ABBBBBBA (since an F7B has a dual sound unit, that amounts to 12 sound units plus 2 powered A units plus the See-Thru's flashing lights in 8 units)?


One step forward.

I got one of the F7ABBBBBBA's programmed. There is an old XL decoder in each of the "A" units (different versions). The MTS 6.0 software determined one XL is a 55020 and the other is a 55021 (both are green board XL's). I could not program CV-1 higher than 22 so I kept CV-29 at 4/5 with 14 steps and put both A units at Loco ID 21. That way they could work with the Massoth 1210Z or LGB Central Station III with Navigators or LGB Universal Remotes.

So far the locos work OK with both the Navigator and track power. I need to figure out some things with the headlights, cab lights and flashing lights as they are not all functioning the same (yet). One problem with using a single Loco ID for both A units is if their lights are out of sync it makes it a bit complex to get them synced with each other and with the flashing lights in the cabs and in the B units. This was never a problem with track power - they all worked perfectly together.

Eventually I will get back to them but this is enough for now where I can park or drive them either under MTS/DCC or track power.

I'm not ready to try them double headed yet (don't know how yet) and may not with the loco ID limit of only 23.


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