# MTH and DCC



## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

Has anybody converted an MTH engine, specifically the GG!) to DCC? How difficult or easy is it? Any tips? I have not converted any of the MTH engines. Will their proto sound work or would I be better off just going with an after market sound system? I am planning on using an NCE decoder, any suggestions(408 vs 808)?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Protosound III hardware will respond to both DCS and DCC, and apparently, they are offering it for the first time in large scale, in some F units advertised on the MTH site. 

I have no idea when they will ship, nor if you can get the boards separately, but I'd consider this option, if you can be patient. 

If not, then rip the electronics out and do a full install, and I would use a sound decoder like a QSI, Zimo, Massoth, etc. 

Greg


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

Thanks Greg. I agree, a full install would be the way to go.


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

Has anybody done a DCC conversion on a MTH engine? If so, how did it go? I want to convert the GG1 but I am leary about MTH since I never worked on one. I am thinking about getting this engine and I want to be sure the conversion can be done. I would be using a sound decoder or Phoenix sound. Any experiances would be appreciated.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It can be done, but a bit of wiring... you will basically have to gut the loco. 

Now, I'm not familiar with what "extra"functions are supported in the GG-1, like raising and lowering pantographs, etc. 

I know it might be a wait until 2014, but getting a protosound III might be the best answer. 

If you are determined, then research what "extras" are in the GG-1, i.e. beyond lights and smoke... 

Greg


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

Greg, I have always been a fan of the GG1. The MTH version is probably the only one I would be able to afford. The pantographs are a nice feature and I would like to control them. if I can figure it out, the Zimo decoder does have servo control. I just don't want to get this engine and find out that I wasted money because the conversion cannot be done.


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

The protosound III does sound like the way to go. Is the info reliable that they may be coming out with that in G?


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

I have begun my conversion on the GG1. This engine has marker lights that are bi directional LEDs. On all the time, reversing color with the direction of the engine. I am using a Zima decoder. Can this be done with a Zimo decoder? If so, how? I think I am stumped.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sure, are they bipolar or separate. 

basically do the leds have 2 or 3 leads? 

also what color and what size (you may want to replace them) 

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

How you use the lights depends on what type of leds these are. 

If common anode, it is simple, just tie the anode to positive voltage via a dropping resistor, and then select the color by grounding a cathode. 

If common cathode, it can be done, but with reverse logic. You need to ground the common cathode by tying it to decoder ground, and then using resistors on the 2 anodes. 
Connect both resistors to positive power. 
Now ground the led to resistor connection on the color you do not want!! 

Only issue this will create is when no light is selected, both leds will be on and red will dominate.


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

The LEDs on the GG1 have three leads and look like 3mm. They are supposed to stay on, red/green, and reverse with direction of travel.


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## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Kenny on 04 Sep 2013 09:44 PM 
The protosound III does sound like the way to go. Is the info reliable that they may be coming out with that in G? 

*Kenny* 
*Only MTH RK1 on-line shipping dates for PS-3 in their F-7, VO1000 and Dash-8 so far (Nov 13>Jan 14) .







*

*The GG1 use DC motors with steering diodes for the Pan's. *
*You should be able to use the Zimo to control the motors but I will let Dan/Greg handle that info*.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You will have to determine if the LEDs are common cathode or common anode. 

You will have difficulty if they are common cathode. 

Greg


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

OK, Greg, do you have any idea where I can get LEDs that would work in this application? This is from Axel at Train Li. Quote:"Not bidirectional. Bidirectional change their color with switching polarity. What you need is a common anode (+) and cathodes (-). Each cathode is connected to (typically) to Forwards and Backwards inputs to the decoder". Axel is in agreement with you, but where do I find this type of LED? I am really dense when it comes to this kind of electronics. How would you do this if you were doing the conversion?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, the proper term for 2 terminal, 2 color leds is "bipolar', meaning 2 different polarities get 2 different colors. 

Yes, you do need common anode, as I was leading up to. (3 leads, 2 colors)

BUT, you need to determine if they are common anode or common cathode. 

Where to find? google "red / green led common anode"... of course you need the size too... many people make the red/green ones... get them with 3 leads and common anode... 

No offense, but if you don't feel real capable, you need to get a buddy to show you some basic electronics, use of a meter, etc... especially if you are going to tackle the pantographs, especially since you will have to figure out how to limit the motor travel, apparently. 

(Ray? Just a DC motor, and drives to stall with a timer? Do you think they measure the stall current to know they are at the limit? Or does the drive system "slip" at the limit so the motor does not stall?) 

Regards, Greg


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

Greg, I appreciate the help. Believe it or not, I do have some electrical knowledge, not as much as you or some of the other guys here. I knew this engine would be a challenge and I am learning. I do not know how to tackle the pantographs so I am hoping to get some help from you guys. This is a learning experience and really appreciate the help.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Gotcha, and will try to help. 

First, I'd test the existing leds to see if they are already common anode. Get an LED calculator (several links on my site), and test the leds and see if they are common anode... meaning put the resistor on the common and then connect +DC and test. 

If they are already common anode, problem solved. 

The pantographs, perhaps we can entice Ray to give us some more info... you really need a pulse of voltage, and maybe a simple 555 timer circuit triggered by the decoder will do the trick... 

Look at this page for a good LED calculator: http://elmassian.com/trains/dcc-battery-rc-electronics/misc-electronics/led-lighting-basics 

Regards, Greg


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

Greg, thanks again for the help. I am looking forward to making this engine work.


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

I found the LEDs on line. They are common anode, 3mm, 3 leads. Should work!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Great! be sure to use a LED calculator that includes the forward voltage drop of the LEDs. 

Greg


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

I know I am starting to become a pain with this subject. Now that I have some idea about the correct LEDs, my next issue is how to connect them to the Zimo decoder. Would you use two separate functions to make the lights work(like the headlight and rear light) or can it be done using one function? I think in order to have all four marker lights on at the same time, and reverse color with travel direction, I would have to use two separate functions. Does this sound right or is there a better way?


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

All Zimo motor decoders and other manufacturers have a forward and reverse light output separate from the other functions. 
Pre wired decoders (Zimo and MRC) have common plus as a blue wire, white for front and yellow for rear light. 
For the MX695 in large scale, the function outputs can handle a good size load, 2 amps for a function group which is a total current load for functions in a group. 
Same for the whole decoder, if total output is rated at 6 amps, then motor, lights, smoke units add up to 6 amp max continuous current, but there can be surges up to 10 amps for the MX695. 
So, read the manual and check the specs on any decoder you are using.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

two separate wires, because the 3 pin led can be driven as two separate leds, since you have the common anode.... that goes to the common wire (which is positive) in this case use the headlight and rear light functions. 

You really hook the ones at each end to the same "outputs", just that green on the front goes to the headlight function , and red on the rear goes to the headlight function. 

Then red on the front goes to the rear headlight function and so does green on the rear to the rear headlight function. 

Greg


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## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 17 Sep 2013 07:08 PM 

.................SNIP.....................
(Ray? Just a DC motor, and drives to stall with a timer? Do you think they measure the stall current to know they are at the limit? Or does the drive system "slip" at the limit so the motor does not stall?) 

Regards, Greg 
Greg
Sorry - but I do not remember the details of my R/D effort 2+ years ago.[/b]
I have a 'PS-3 project' on the work bench that will take some time to clear.[/b]
Then I will dig out my RK-1 GG-1 and recheck for you/Kenny what I re-learn.[/b]
Ray[/b]


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

Thanks for all the help. I am looking forward to Ray's info on the pantos. It would be good if I could get them to work. Greg, I will let you know how I make out, again, thanks for your help. When it comes to some of this stuff, I have a lot to learn!


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

Ray, any help with the GG1 pantos?


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