# LGB semaphore with DCC



## thomastoo (Jun 17, 2011)

Does anyone use LGB semaphore signals with DCC. If so how does setup differ from analog?


----------



## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

I used several LGB semaphores, but on DC. They have an EPL drive, and you operate them just as you can a switch. Thus, they should work fine with a switch decoder.


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Further to Stan's comments, the LGB single channel switch decoder plugs into the end of the EPL drive, and hooks right to track power. It's a nice unit. 
Here is a link to it on the LGB/Maerklin website: 

http://lgb.de/de/produkte/zubehoer_.../zubehoer_gleismaterial/zubehoer/decoder.html 


Keith


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

I have several of them on my layout, I treat them just like any other switches. I use massoth's 4-switch decoder to control them, in a few cases, I also use track contacts along with a massoth feedback module (some switch connected to both). Lighting is provide by a dedicated transformer which I use for all the lighting requirements of the layout. 

Mohammed 
http://www.allaboutlgb.com


----------



## DaveE (Jun 9, 2011)

I would watch out using the Massoth unit outdoors. I don't believe they recommend it for that environment. 
Dave


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

I do not think that is a significant issue. Lots of people have been and continue to use Massoth units outdoors without any adverse effects. I have personally used them for the last 3 years at least. One must , of course, exercise care when using any electronic products outdoors

Mohammed
http://www.allaboutlgb.com/


----------



## Chip (Feb 11, 2008)

Seems there is a little gray here about the Massoth 8156001. From the Massoth manual:

_"5.1 Moisture
The housing of the DiMAX Motor/Switch Decoder is protected from splashed water. : The electronic is sealed waterproof. Despite everything the clamps are to be protected against constant humidity, since these corrode otherwise.
5.2 Warranty
Massoth Electronics USA warrants this product for 1 year from the date of purchase. This product is warranted against defects in materials and workmanship. Peripheral component damage is not covered by this warranty. Normal wear and tear, consumer modifications as well as improper use or installation are not covered. Errors and changes excepted."_




So you have to put it in a dry building and watch out for condensation. 


Maybe better would be the Piko unit (made by Massoth) that has a seal around the whole unit,

including the "clamps" See: http://swl4.com/PIKO-35013_Switch_Decoder.html 

Chip


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chip: A picture is worth a thousand wordsw. This is what massoth means when they say that their electronics are protected. The image on the rigt depicts the inside of the decoder.

As for the clamps, once has to choose between the Massoth system which make it convenient to connect and disconnect wires from the decoder without taking the it apart, and the piko sytem that requires the decoder to be taken apart everytime a wire is connected or disconnected from it.

There are, of course, other important differences between the 2 units, eventhough they cost the same, and are made by the same manufacturer.


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chip: this image depicts the inside of the piko decoder (image downloaded from the link you provided)


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the pictures, brings into complete clarity what Chip mentioned. 

I would never recommend external screw terminals outside unless they were 100% stainless, and even then your copper wire will be subject to corrosion. Those screw heads reside in nice little "pockets" that would be perfect for holding moisture. 

Outdoors, once you wire up this decoder, you would not be changing wiring all the time, in fact once connected and working the only reason to remove a wire is from a component failure, so I don't follow the reasoning of opening the decoder being a negative. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Chip on 19 Jun 2011 08:40 PM 
Seems there is a little gray here about the Massoth 8156001. From the Massoth manual:

_"5.1 Moisture
The housing of the DiMAX Motor/Switch Decoder is protected from splashed water. : The electronic is sealed waterproof. Despite everything the clamps are to be protected against constant humidity, since these corrode otherwise.
5.2 Warranty
Massoth Electronics USA warrants this product for 1 year from the date of purchase. This product is warranted against defects in materials and workmanship. Peripheral component damage is not covered by this warranty. Normal wear and tear, consumer modifications as well as improper use or installation are not covered. Errors and changes excepted."_




So you have to put it in a dry building and watch out for condensation. 



Section 2 at the beginning of the Massoth instructions makes it even clearer:

_2 Hook-Up and Operation
• Check the applicable wiring diagram for the hook-up method. Basically the decoder is protected against short-circuit and overload. However in case of a connection error (e.g. function and track power) this safety feature cannot work and the decoder will be destroyed subsequently.
• The factory setting of the DiMAX® Motor/Switch Decoder is address 1..4. In case a loco address is to be used, CV 29 must be altered accordingly.
*• Place the DiMAX® Motor/Switch Decoder in a protected location. The unit must not be exposed to moisture.*
• The DiMAX® Motor/Switch Decoder must only be connected to digital central stations for model railroads according to the NMRS standards. Connecting the module to other appliances may lead to the destruction of the unit.
• This unit is not a toy!_


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

First, the Massoth screws are SS. Second, there are ways to protect copper wires from moisture, LGB has used ferrules for that purpose for about 40 years and they are quite effective. Third, it is the electronics that one needs to protect from moisture, not the screws or the wires, wires and screws a relatively inexpensive to replace compared to the electronics. Fourth, having to take the decoder apart to connect or disconnect a wire does not do it for me. Aside from all that, as is obvious from the pictures, the way Massoth protects the electronics is clearly superior. In addition, the Massoth decoder has a few more features and functions. The piko decoder is much more similar to the LGB switch decoder than it is to the Massotth. Given all that and given that the price of the Massoth unit is the same as the price of the piko unit, you get more bang for your buck with the Massoth unit. 

Mohammed
http://www.allaboutlgb.com.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mohammed... do you have an outdoor garden railroad? With exposed electrical connections? 

Copper will oxidize outside, and if it is stranded, it will oxidize more quickly than a solid wire. (more surface area) 

I know what a ferrule is... how does that keep moisture and oxygen away from the wire? I suppose you can solder it but you need to seal it where the jacket is stripped away, and still your brass ferrule will oxidize. Solder does not do well in the elements also. 

It's clear about the electronics, that much was already obvious... yes the potted electronics should be more reliable than electronics in a case, considering the possibility of moisture getting inside and raising the humidity. No contest there. Would the Piko unit fail because it is not potted? That's another discussion and needs long term data. 

I was talking specifically about the outside connections. That is what will go first. 

Greg


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Greg: 
I have a relatively decent layout that I started around 1987. I have allways terminated my wires with ferrules which I affixed using a crimp tool. I have yet to replace a single wire because of either the failure of the ferrule or corrosion of a wire. I use good quality nickel- plated insulated ferrules and I match the ferrule to the thickness of the wire. 
Do I think that the Piko unit would fail because it is not potted, of course not, if proper care is taken it will last a good while. I have a few LGB switch decoders, similar to the Piko, dating back to 2004 and and they are still going. 
I just wanted to point out that given the cost and the features, Massoth seems to me to be a better choice. 

Mohammed


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, now you are talking. Nickle plate should last. 

We normally call a ferrule a tubular piece of metal, but sounds like these are a bit different, in that you can crimp them and get a gas-tight connection. Do you have pictures of the ones you use that will also fit in the screw-terminal-clamps? 

Thanks, Greg


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

To follow this discussion, I'm trying to find out exactly what type of connecting technology Massoth is using.

In the Massoth manual it describes the connector as a "C-Clamp".

C-Clamp?
Never heard that terminology being used for any electrical connection of any type - a C-Clamp looks like this:


data:image/jpg;base64,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 

So I check the German section of the manual.

"Schraubklemmleiste" - ah, that makes more sense










If that is the type of connector we're talking about - very common in Europe, not so much in North-America, well, that type of connector was never designed to be openly exposed to the elements and the caution in the Massoth manual makes that very clear.


Using ferrules or whatever are not going to make any difference. 
When you send the module back to Massoth under warranty with corroded terminals they may well say - sorry, the warranty is ull and void since you didn't protect the module from moisture as specifically required per our instructions - and they would be right.

Massoth clearly stated:
_*Place the DiMAX® Motor/Switch Decoder in a protected location. The unit must not be exposed to moisture.*_

Nothing to misinterpret there. 


Knut


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Greg:
These are the sizes I commonly use, There are a lot more sizes. As you can from the ones that are affixed the wire, the fit is nothing short of perfect. 

Mohammed


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Knut: 
C clamps are the little gizmos in a terminal block that clamp down on the wire when the screws are tightened. they look to me more like an e that a c and they can collaspe if you tighten down on them too hard. What you show here has nothing to do with C clamps. As I said previously, I never has a corrosion problem or any other problem with Massoth switch decoders, or lgb.

Mohammed


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I understand what you mean Mohammed, but I would never call that type of screw terminal block simply a "C-Clamp", calling it a screw-clamp terminal block I think is a much better term. 

In any case, I'm a bit surprised that you, as one of the official Massoth retailers in the US, contradict what Massoth officially publishes in their documentation of this switch decoder. 

Knut 

PS: Would be useful if Massoth published the maximum gauge of wire that terminal strip can accomodate, aybe you could get them to add that detail - maybe it's there now, I just don't see it anywhere in the manual.


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Knut: I am not contradicting them in any way. I was trying to make the point that the moisture issue is not a significant problem. It can be overcome. As I said in my earlier post, one must exercise caution when using electronics outdoors. I have found a way to do it, it has worked well for me and I shared it. There are certainly other ways to exercise caution and protect one's toys.


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

as far a guage is concerned, I am confortable with 22 AWG for Massoth and 20 for LGB (the LGB terminal are larger) for a wire length of 3 meter max. They fit well, and remain easy to insert and remove. Thicker guage are a little harder to handle. 
I do not think Massoth would commit to a particular guage because of lenght of wire issues.


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I just returned from Kansas, so now I have time to chime in.

I have been using for years in my LGB drives (which are the same on the signals) ZIMO switch controller. They are so miniaturized that they fit into the cavity in front of the drives mechanic.. 


















The clear advantage of this solution is that you utilize the drives without any additional wiring. The Massoth unit requires that you wire your signal up to the unit, and unless you have a major accumulation of signals in one single area I find it much more practical to hook my components up to the track, right were they are.

My decoders have been outdoors for 6 years now and had no problems what so ever. If you want you can even silicon them up.


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Axel: 

A dedicated decoder for each EPL switch can get very expensive very quickly. Massoth offers single swtich decoders, but I usually discourage people from buying them unless they only have, and will never have more than, a single to control.


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

That may be true with Massoth, but not with ZIMO







. 4 of the ZIMO switch decdoer will be equal in price (or even better) then the 4 switch decoder of Massoth. Plus the single decoder solution is perfectly sealed away inside the switch machine while you need to house the Massoth unit in a save spot away from rain, rising water or it makes puff


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Axel:










Do you really believe that the decoder shown in your picture is better protected than the Massoth single switch decoder shown in the picture above, honestly. 

Mohammed


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Futhermore, the price of a Massoth 4 switch/motor decoder is less that the price of 4 of the least expensive Zimo switch decoders, and significant less than the price of 4 zimo decoders with features equivalent to those of the Massoth switch/motor decoders.


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Anyone have an idea why the picture in my MLS email notification looks like this?
First time that happened - almost looks like a negative.


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

knut: I have no idea, that is strange. How did it get to the imageshak.us from Largescale? It certaintly looks like it has been edited.


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Mohamed:

I don't know which Math skills you are using but a single channel Massoth decoder list for 59.90 and a 4 channel one for 119.00 (US Dollar - in accordance to Massoth's own web site). That is significantly more than a ZIMO MX82.

And in terms of capabilities you must have not read a ZIMO user guide, because the MX82 offers quite a bit more functionality than the Massoth decoder - thank you very much - and that includes the capabiltiy of controlling 4 servos, something that Massoth can't even do on their high-end decoders. 

And let's not forget that the 4-switch decoder only control 4 switches if you don't want to utilzie the external trigger functionality, otherwsie you are down to 3 switches.

It is quite cute if Mr. Battery "Tony Walsh" tries to pitch battery power in every thread where he sees fit (at least he is a sponsor of the community, it is something else if someone abuses this forum for his own marketing pitch.

Granted I am a distributor (and a two times sponsor), but poeple who know me for quite some time, know that I have always contributed in many ways (over 4000 posts) and even since I got into the business did so continuesously.


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 06 Jul 2011 06:44 PM 
knut: I have no idea, that is strange. How did it get to the imageshak.us from Largescale? It certaintly looks like it has been edited.

I thought maybe Steve has an idea.

I used image shack to be able to post it back into mls from the MLS email notification.

Can you send me that picture directly to my email address to see what that looks like?

Thanks,


Knut


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Axel: 
Resorting to those kind accusations does not make you argument any more valid. It is a tactic that some use to silence others and it does not work with me. 4 zimo decoder @29.90 each would cost in grade school multiplication math 119.60 dollars, that is 60 cents more than the Massoth MSRP and more like $12.00 more than Massoth retail price . Secondly, the unrelentling attempt to trash everyone else's product is not informative. This is a place where people are supposed to share information not preach. I will continue to express my opinions regardless of your acccusations. Posting 4000 posts does not grant you or any one else the right to self serving, unsubstantiated commentaries.


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By krs on 06 Jul 2011 07:03 PM 
Posted By mbendebba on 06 Jul 2011 06:44 PM 
knut: I have no idea, that is strange. How did it get to the imageshak.us from Largescale? It certaintly looks like it has been edited.

I thought maybe Steve has an idea.

I used image shack to be able to post it back into mls from the MLS email notification.

Can you send me that picture directly to my email address to see what that looks like?

Thanks,


Knut 



If you are on MLS you should be able to right click on the image and save it.


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 06 Jul 2011 07:16 PM 
If you are on MLS you should be able to right click on the image and save it.

I did that as well.
Also shows up "funny"

I'm just trying to figure out if MLS is causing that or something on my end.

Knut


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

knut: I did it too before responding to you and I had no problem. I had a similar problem this morning with a PDF file I downloaded from a German Wesite. I could not read one of the pages, the typeface was distorted. pm me your e-mail address, and I will send it to you. 

Mohammed


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 06 Jul 2011 07:10 PM 
Axel: 
Resorting to those kind accusations does not make you argument any more valid. It is a tactic that some use to silence others and it does not work with me. 4 zimo decoder @29.90 each would cost in grade school multiplication math 119.60 dollars, that is 60 cents more than the Massoth MSRP and more like $12.00 more than Massoth retail price . Secondly, the unrelentling attempt to trash everyone else's product is not informative. This is a place where people are supposed to share information not preach. I will continue to express my opinions regardless of your acccusations. Posting 4000 posts does not grant you or any one else the right to self serving, unsubstantiated commentaries. 
Sorry Mohamed: 

First of all I don't trash the Massoth products I state the facts and not accusations. Using the word "accusation" unfortunately is tainting this discussion in order to discredit me. You will not succeed with these politician style methods.









So lets go back to one example of this:
You were talking about the 3 (4) switch decoder I showed an application of an integrated one switch decoder, you said it is more expensive than the 3(4) switch decoder, I said the integration is better water proof then the 3 (4) switch decoder and you show a picture of the 1 switch decoder - really















I was referring to this unit not being waterproof.

But if we take a look at this unit:








Then we see that the internal electronic is not coated against water influence. My manufacturer (TrainLine45) and I have experimented over two years to get an outdoor unit waterproof. Because the secret is not to prevent the water from coming in but from getting it out and preventing in the meantime that condensation and other forms of water can destroy the electronic. Even if the chassis is sealed - water will have its way - at the minimum at the screw terminals. Electronic clear lacquer unfortunately does not help - we learned this the hard way.

But that's just on the side note.



So lets go back to the facts:[/b]

Take a look on my website I am selling MX82 for $28.95 and not $59? - Oh you posted while I was correcting a typo - it pays to wait sometimes.









I am selling a two switch version for $45. And even if we go back to European published MSRP then ZIMO's 27 Euro MSRP is still cheaper than Massoth's 34.95 for a single decoder and if you point to the 3 (4) switch unit then 2x 39 Euro is a bit more expense the 69.50 Euro but only if your application can utilize the restricted 4 channels (if you want to have triggers then it is actually more expense on a per switch basis). And while not a ZIMO product, the integrated ProDrive DC/DCC for ~$45 beats all math on this subject matter. Granted that controller doesn't have all the bells in whistles as the ZIMO MX82 but it serves only two purposes, the switching of a turnout and turn on/off of a switch lantern.

And here are further fact based questions, some of them previously posted but you didn't talk about







:

A. Does the Massoth 3 (4) switch unit control servos?
B. If your application requires triggers is the 4 switch unit then a 3 switch unit?
C: Is the MSRP for the 3 (4) Switch unit 119?
D: is 4x 28.95 = 115.80 and is 115.80 < 119?
E: is 28.95 < 59 (for single switch decoder)?
F: Can the single switch unit handle 4 servos?
G: Does Massoth support the CV values according the the NMRA standard (document #635-Extended Packet Formats for Digital Command Control) starting at CV 513 for accessory decoders?

The only person who is self serving is you - unfortunately. 

You are for some long time in the hobby but started posting on MLS only lately and predominantly in the DCC forum since you became a Massoth dealer:
Massoth this and Massoth that. 
Those are the facts.


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Axel: 

You begin, you reply by claiming that you state facts and you make no accusations. Yet, in next sentence you accuse me of political tactics, whatever that means; and in your last sentence, you conclude by telling us what you think my motives are for posting on MSL, and then you call your conlusion facts. 

I have joined this forum not too long ago, and I did so because I recently retired. It has nothing to do with becoming a Massoth dealer. Forums are places where people look for many ideas on how to go about doing certain things, not just a single idea. There are many ways to skin acat, not just one, and those that are products of experience are usually the better ones.

I, like many others in this forum want to share ideas I have aquired through my own experiences. I have truly been a Massoth user for the last years, and longer if I were to include the products they have made for LGB over the last 35years. I know the product exteremely well, I have on hand extensive experience with it, I did not just learn about it for some brochure or some website. That is what motivates me to talk about Massoth products. 

You also claim in your post that you have not been trashing Massoth products, yet you display for us all to see the single switch decoder from Massoth with its cover removed and want us to beleive that this product is less protected from water than a shrink wrapped Zimo decoder. shrink wrapping is not waterproofing by any strech of the immagination. Nor is it a more effective waterproofing method than potting the electronics, as is the case with the Massoth 4 switch/motor decoder also displayed in your post. 

As to your questions about the Massoth products, I refer you to the Massoth website where you will find the user's manuals for all of their products. I would personally like to have access to the user's manuals for the Zimo products so I can become better informed. 

People generally make the best decisions when given access to all information.


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

You pick and choose your topics and then you accuse me









Have a nice day


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

You both can get back to staying within the rules of conduct here on MLS, or watch your replies magically disappear, got it!


----------



## bhewitt452 (Jan 4, 2008)

Maybe Massoth should sponser something on MLS.


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Bill: I think you should e-mail massoth and ask them, they may just do it. 

Mohammed


----------



## bhewitt452 (Jan 4, 2008)

It's not my place to contact Massoth. I have no relationship with them.

I just have the items they made and are installed in LGB products and have just started dabbling with an old MTS system. I have no Zimo, Air wire , Revolution or other DCC type control systems but will be considering the purchase of one in the future.

However if you as a user, dealer, importer, distributer or whatever your relatonship is with Massoth ( I am not sure) you should be the person that proposes a sponsership on MLS since you seem to be pushing their product. If they and you value the opportunity to discuss their products here and want to be able to share DCC information to people such as myself who are considering the future purchase of such a system it would be a strong statement that they and you support the growth of this portion of the hobby.

Unbiased information is always appreciated from whatever the source and that is what should be offered here. This should be a place for me to gather information in order to make an informed decision.


----------



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Bill: 
I am a user and a dealer. When I post on this forum, and I have done so about 46 times so far, my intent is to learn from the experience of and share my experiences with other people like me , hobbiest. I supported this forum as a user by becoming a 1rst class member since day1. All hobbiest have pet products, mine happen to be LGB, Pola, and Massoth, I understand the philosophy behind the product and it fits with my world view of things. 

I have been a Massoth dealer for about a month now, and have contributed Massoth relevant posts whenever I thought my comments would add useful information. I have never suggested or asked anyone to buy my product, and even if I were to have done so , I woudl hope that no one would make a purchasing decision solely onthe basis of my opinion or recommedation. As indicated by many posts on this forum, there are as many opinions on just about every G-scale product as there are people using it. All should be considered, and for that reason alone, I have defended Massoth product whenever I thought that the information presented by someone else was inaccurate or imcomplete.


----------

