# What to do with an old engine



## bnsf7000 (10 mo ago)

I have recently got an Aristo GP40 with Revolution and Phoenix sound installed. The motors test ok on the bench out of the engine and the original plug and play board supplies power to lights and sound board but not to the motors. Any suggestions ? Do I gut and put in a new mounting board for the revolution and rewire the lights with LEDS or given the history of burned out motors simply put it on a mantle. Its been well cared for, looks great.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Put the loco under load and measure current, i.e. make it pull a train. You will be able to tell if the motors have started to go, and it being a used loco, should show up.

No reason to gut, the board is there, maybe your motor switch failed, they are cheap slide switches.... .... can you debug electrical circuits?

Gutting a loco is an old foolish reaction made popular by people who really did not understand electrical circuits (not even electronics)... 

Did you test the revolution to see if it is outputting anything?

reading this page from my friend Ted might be helpful:






Aristo GP40 Problems - Smoking Motors & Debilitated Wheels


Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers




elmassian.com





Greg


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Some revolution have gone bad on me in the past with the same reaction you have everything worked except the motor on the Revolution. Anyone with bad GP-40 motors send then to me, see if I can get them running with a very odd way. I would have never believed it, and I have be an Electrician for 52 years. But so far I got three to run good ! I am not going to say until I try a few more, then if it works I will say what I did. *


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## bnsf7000 (10 mo ago)

Santafe 2343 said:


> *Some revolution have gone bad on me in the past with the same reaction you have everything worked except the motor on the Revolution. Anyone with bad GP-40 motors send then to me, see if I can get them running with a very odd way. I would have never believed it, and I have be an Electrician for 52 years. But so far I got three to run good ! I am not going to say until I try a few more, then if it works I will say what I did. *





Santafe 2343 said:


> *Some revolution have gone bad on me in the past with the same reaction you have everything worked except the motor on the Revolution. Anyone with bad GP-40 motors send then to me, see if I can get them running with a very odd way. I would have never believed it, and I have be an Electrician for 52 years. But so far I got three to run good ! I am not going to say until I try a few more, then if it works I will say what I did. *


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## bnsf7000 (10 mo ago)

So I am not an electronics trained person, I actually dont know very many folks who are in this hobby. I would not know a diode from a transistor but can follow simple circuits. I pumped oil products for Exxon Mobile for 31 years and have been retired for 13 . Electricity and fluids move much the same way . I will take the revolution out and test it on a dummy mount board . Since it is already linked to the transmitter I should be able to measure the output. The voltage triggers from the revolution are working the bell and horn plus the engine revs up and down as if the thing was moving so with luck its a fried revo board. It wasnt the motor switch Greg but good idea. Easy fix. At 75 I can not solder circuit boards any more but have seen enough rotten soldering from China in all brands. The humid summer climate were I live[ southern Ontario, Canada] seems to corrode boards as well Lots of white gunk buildup on the boards and then poof. My theory is ungrounded electrons, or static, with nowhere to go so it builds up accumulating dust and moisture
The wheels have reached the stage of losing their plating and more often you clean them the more often you have to, why couldnt they have spent a little more money on decent plating like LGB. I have 25 year old Moguls that despite heavy use are just starting to lose their plating.
Given the lack of spare parts I guess its time for batteries if I can solve the electronic issues unless someone knows of a supply of these wheels. 
Thanks again for listening and your suggestions.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Wheels pretty easy to find, and you can get stainless wheels made from NWSL, no more plating problems.


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## bnsf7000 (10 mo ago)

So I can remove the revo board from the engine and put it on a support board. If I use the presently linked transmitter and supply 18 volts to the input I would get whatever voltage I asked for on output the if the revolution is not fried ? . This electronics for dummies I know but I have to start somewhere. I have a voltmeter just never been shown how to use it properly. Can anyone suggest a beginner online course specific to model RR.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So do you have the stock "shorting plug" that goes in the 12 pin side of the socket?

The shorting plug is installed in the picture below... it's the skinny board with the 12 solder blobs.... to the right you see the other part of the socket with nothing in it (normal)










you may have to look closely to see the outline of the board. In this picture, the shorting plug obscures the black 12 pin socket below.

If you have this, remove the Revolution receiver, plug this in and you should have a normal DC loco.

If you are stuck, show pictures. (the loco above is a Dash 9, so the main board is different than your GP 40)

Ahhh, I found a picture of the GP40 board:


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## bnsf7000 (10 mo ago)

Thanks what an excellent , simple idea . I used to use the shorting plug to test my motor polarity when replacing motors and / or lights prior to installing a revolution. You only have to fry one or two to rethink your approach. I was apparently over thinking this situation. As your page suggests under pros and cons these units have a history of just giving up and this is a pre 2015 model [no sound]. I was never much with computers outside of work, but since I turned 70 I have been playing catchup.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Normally the loco will just draw excessive current, so testing on a DC supply should not harm anything, but you should try to measure the current draw.

I have not seen one at a dead short yet, the defective motors tend to short SOME windings on SOME of the poles on some of the motors.

Give it a try.

You can learn more about expected current from my friend Ted's excellent article:






GP40 vignettte


Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers




elmassian.com






Greg


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## bnsf7000 (10 mo ago)

I pulled the revolution and put in the dummy plug and the motors worked just fine, with lights and the basic sound from the 2k2 sound board. A basic DC engine using rheostat control , drawing about 2 amps at 3/4 speed. My bench power is a Crest 3.5 amp ,with amp display ancient but reliable, and a crest controller. So I put in a new revolution got it linked on minimum output and then asked for some power. Poof, overload indicated on the 3.5 amp display and the heat sink got very hot immediately. 
So I need a course in basic electronics to trouble shoot this. Any suggestions.
By the way other than lost equipment I am still having fun and long ago forgot to get mad at myself and just try figure things out. 
How should I bench test the Revolutions. I have found out that this engine came from Ridge Road Station in New York and and the spare Revolution that came with the engine came from the same just before it closed.
thanks again


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

*So I was right about the Revolution boar. I bet it was one of he mini fused on the circuit board. Glad your up and running !*


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## bnsf7000 (10 mo ago)

What I have now are two dead revolution boards, one from the previous owner and one from me. Plus a straight DC engine, something I have not run in years as I hate being tied to a stationary throttle outdoors I have 11 locos from various manufacturers and all have been converted to RC, some with battery power. Playability is what it is all about for me. I am still learning basic electronics and will load test the motors. I have read Ted Doskaris article several times I will inspect the motors for the signs of replacements. That will determine the course of action going forward. If I have the original motors its likely a mantle piece. If not I will try to find a GP 40 parts engine for the main board . Sorry Greg but I have gutted a few locos with success. One an LGB mogul that fried itself on a split switch when I was still using tethered throttles. Could not run fast enough to save it, hence RC. Thanks everyone this is a great site. lots of ideas and inspiration


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So, did you find and check the on board surface mount fuse on all Revolution receivers?

Here's a picture of the DCC version, notice "F1" in the bottom right corner. It's in a different place on the other receivers, but that is typically what blows. Easy to test on the board.


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## bnsf7000 (10 mo ago)

Hi . the only thing my two blown boards have in common with the one you have shown is the discolored brownish item in the upper right of the board above the vertical 2018-2.
On my one new unused diesel board the item is silver so is that the fuse ? . These boards were pre 2015 with no sound, no DDC , just RC. If the fuse is blown is it junk or can Navin repair it ?
Hopefully the motors are replacements and then when I rebuild is it better to power and control the Phoenix sound from the Revolution or should I retain the Aristo board for the lights and sound functions . the Phoenix was wired into the Aristo board factory mounts.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There is a fuse on your boards, if you post nice photos of each side I'll point to the fuse.

Each motor block should draw about 1/2 amp on rollers, from 5 to 15 volts. So if your loco is drawing 2 amps, one or both motors are shot. Also if you look at this video, you can see the difference in the stock and the replacement motors. The motors are around, might have to look on ebay or contact Navin.

This video by my friend Ted shows replacing the motors and current draw before and after:





Notice the original motors are shorter? They were most likely counterfeit .

Greg


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## bnsf7000 (10 mo ago)

I ll be a few days responding as I need to get my "tech dept " [ daughter ] over to show me how to post photos from my phone to my computer etc. Also learning how to measure amps with a multi meter. This is neat stuff I should have learned a long time ago.


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## bnsf7000 (10 mo ago)

This is what I have. The bottom one is fried.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

looks like the versions of the boards have changed things, this is a picture that shows the fuse:










But your board is different, and I believe the fuse has been replaced by something else, the big blob in the bottom right corner might be it...

can you post a picture of the other side?

(note your board has a Transient Voltage Suppressor (TVS) in the bottom left corner, but not the same function as a fuse)

Greg


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## bnsf7000 (10 mo ago)

Sorry when she posted them they flipped or I took the shot upside down. It is the top one that is NFG.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I want to see the other side of the circuit board, you are showing the underside of 2 boards, I want to see the top side of either board.

Notice that on your top picture, the solder blob at the lower right has flux around it? It has been re-soldered there.. i.e. repaired. 

My best guess is that it is a fuse.. do you have an ohmmeter to test the resistance of the fuse?










I have not found a more current picture that matches your board that indicates where the fuse is. (or if your version still uses a fuse).

Hopefully someone with this issue will see and post.


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## bnsf7000 (10 mo ago)

Come to the conclusion I am just going to move on as these burnout, doubt their worth fixing even if someone could. The Sound Traxx, Rail Pro , & Revolution, all come with sound now and Phoenix appears to be the odd man out. 
Good news. Turns out after taking apart the motors blocks again, with the knowledge of Teds article , I find these are the Aristo replacement blocks , not just the motor but the whole block. So this baby is worth a rebuild and should run for many years if it passes the amp test.. Batteries or new wheels ,the cost is about the same any thoughts ? . I remember seeing a hobby shop installer cut the revolution into the power wire to the trucks and keep the light functions in the old board.. Is that still done ?
I have found someone to teach me how to use the multi meter. Everyone online skips the DC amp function test hookup at these low voltages. I can trace circuits with a continuity meter , and find the voltage output so I am half way there.


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