# Stack Talke Experiment



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Ran the Mike today, did a little experiment with the chuff pipe to see how it affects stack talk/plumes. 
*You Tube video here*:  

BIt windy, as you will hear.

First features a modified chuff pipe with a notch cut in it to hopefully let some sound reverberate in the smokebox, pipe extends up out of the smokebox a bit.
Second is just a straight chuff pipe that ends a bit below the top of the smokebox, bit larger in diameter also.
Third is NO chuff pipe, just the nozzle I got from Charles. Best stack talk by far, but no plumes.

I tend to lean towards the first for a good mix. May shorten the pipe a bit to keep the top below the top of the smokebox, may help the 'talk' a little bit more. Any opinions?  Jerry


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,
An effective chuff pipe is one of the things steamers have been experimenting with for a long time with only limited success. At Diamondhead this year, I saw and heard a new design that I think is the most effective. It's a pot belly configuration that replaces the current exhaust pipe. It was installed in a K-27 and is louder than any I’ve heard before. I was told that they are experimenting with two diameters for different size smoke boxes. I was told they are about to make several and release them for sale, so keep your eye out.
 
I too have been experimenting with chuff pipes and after several iterations, I’ve settled on a rectangular one, 3/16 x 5/16 K&S stock. I used a vise to crimp and seal the end, then drilled a #70 hole in it. Its length is so that it goes to the bottom of the smoke box with the crimped top 1 cm below the top of the stack. In my case, the length of the chuff pipe is 12.5 cm. Three cms down the side of the pipe, I filed a slot with sharp edges. The slot is 3 mm deep and 1 cm long. The chuff pipe just slips right over the current exhaust pipe.
 
My rectangular pipe works well at slow speeds and under load, but is not near as loud as the pot belly one I saw at Diamondhead.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Carl, may try your design, just for grins. Keep me posted, when you have an address for the other kinds. Jerry


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Carl, 
YOu drill that little hole on top of your crimp, is that where it's at? Could not tell. Get good plumes with that ? 

Jerry


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,
When I crimped the end with the vise, there was a rectangular flat place on top. I drilled the small hole there to keep the chuff pipe from flying upward - just enough of a hole to act as a pressure relief.  The steam plume and noise come from the square edged hole in the side. No apparent loss of plume. By the way, my pipe is on a K-27.
Carl


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah, now I understand. What size is the hole on the side though, how far up? Jerry


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Ive had good sucess with the organ pipe extension. Basically a pipe to slide over the chuff pipe with the arch shaped notch just at the end of the 3mm pipe from the manifold. The 3mm pipe was cut down pretty far say about 1.5" long. I dont have any photos of the thing though. I dont have it installed on my ruby anymore because I changed the stack.


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,
You can see the rectangular hole on the side in the picture. It is 3 cm down from the top and the cut is 1 cm long and 3 mm deep with sharp edges. The # 70 hole is at the top on the crimp.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay, I'll make one. Thanks! Jerry


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry
Door #3- allows for each beat to be heard clearly and relief of back pressure for better performance.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,
 I saw a site http://www.gscale.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=8490    that discusses chuffpipe done by Gordon
Watson. May be of some help. This lonk may not work but the is called G Scale Mad Forum. I just typed chuff pipe live steam in google and the site came up.


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

The URL for Gordon Watson's design and subsequent discussion is:   http://www.gscalemad.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=8490&hl=chuff+pipe

His design is a basic organ pipe configuration, which has similarities to mine, but is round, is short to hang over the exhaust, and was developed for Roundhouse locomotives. His drawing has been around for some time now and I used it to modify a larger bore pipe for my SR#24 (because it has two exhausts), but Gordon's design did not work on my K-27. I've come to the conclusion that it's a lot of fiddling to find the right combination for a particular locomotive.

Gordon Watson (Argyle Locomotives) Chuff Pipe design


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Carl, 
My shay has a Roundhouse boiler, may give that one a try also! Having great fun! 

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well keep us posted as to the results.  Likes dislikes.  Later RJD


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## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

The best results I've ever had were with a straight tube up the stack. This is on an Accucraft Mogul, which was not assembled very carefully. The exhaust nozzle didn't line up wtih the stack and so they didn't screw in the usual 3mm threaded peashooter exhaust pipe. The blast just hit the top of the smokebox and drifted out. 

I took a piece of 3/8" brass tubing from my scrap drawer and slid it down the stack so it went over the nozzle and wedged in the stack, ending about halfway up the stack. This engine has the best chuff of any in my roster. 

My guess is that the 3/8" tube and the "pot belly" are doing similar things by giving a larger volume to resonate in while keeping the exhaust from mixing with the flue gases and killing the plume.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah Vance, my second one on the video is just a straight round pipe. First has a notch cut in it , last is just the nozzle that Charles made for me, really gives some awesome sound, reverberating in the smokebox, but NO plumes! These guys are selling a nice 'Cajon' chuff pipe, even have one for the Mike, after the video, look down below and you can hear a Mike with it. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/nuUFvKzKqSI&rel=1 

You can write Richard here about it: [email protected] 

I'm still talking to them, so that's all I know. Jerry


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,
You Tube says the video is no longer available and removed by the user. I told Chris about it and he's gonna check with Richard.
 When it's back, you can find it by putting 'bark box' in You Tube's search engine.


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## trainmax (Feb 16, 2008)

It's back up


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## trainmax (Feb 16, 2008)

*Man this thing sounds Great!!! * 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QzXN7QjHIi0 
Check it out this is a K27 at the Bayou Live Steamers Steam up. It is the same Locomotive from Diamond Head.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

You can also, after watching the K27, look at the bottom has a movie with the Aristo Mike with one, awesome! Jerry


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## fgw745 (Jan 18, 2008)

this is a link to a video i shot monday 


http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=28797291


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## trainmax (Feb 16, 2008)

Jerry That mike sounds good!!


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## trainmax (Feb 16, 2008)

This is a clip of a K28 with the new bark box. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnhr-66Vt2Q


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

So what is this bark box? any photos?


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## NHSTEAMER (Jan 2, 2008)

Jason,
I found it. go to trainsales.com


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## hawkeye2 (Jan 6, 2008)

Is there a problem with trainsales.com's site? I have tried to go there 3 times (I'm using WebTV) and after a very long waite my system has been shut down just as if I shut off the power. This is a very rare occurance and usually indicates a serious problem with the site I am trying to access. I was looking for info on the bark box.


Steamaholic 470
Doug


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Click here:
http://www.trainsales.com/
Works fine for me, might be your ISP


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Doug,
 I just checked out the site and it worked fine for me.  One page had some bad links to pictures, but overall it was fine.  If you would like to contact them, the name shown is:

Richard Jacobs:


To order 
Send $100.00 check or money order to
Richard Jacobs 
2459 Odin 
New Orleans, LA 70122

Please state the type of  locomotive you will be using your bark box in. 
We will need the diameter of you smoke box and the size of your exhaust pipe
also cylinder bore and stroke
We have most Accucraft sizes of file. 

Now, I also found this information on another page.  I'd call first. 


Richard Jacobs (504) 283-8091    
Due to Hurricane Katrina, R & R Train Company, Inc. has been forced to change our address to a Temporary Mailing Address:  P.O. Box 304, Convent, LA  70723 Please contact us at (504) 343-8091.
Now for the other necessary stuff.  I have no connection in any way with the company listed above.  Although I do know Richard from the annual steamups at Diamondhead, in no way am I connected with or receive compensation from Richard or R & R Train Company, Inc.

 I did hear one of these on a K-27 (I believe) owned by Chris Sortina at Diamondhead.  The sound was excellent, even with all the noise of the people in the area.  Got some attention for sure.


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## fgw745 (Jan 18, 2008)

he is at the oden street address


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## NHSTEAMER (Jan 2, 2008)

If anyone dose get one of these Bark Boxes on SG locos please let me know how it sounds and what effect it has on running (back pressure) for what loco you have it on.  I would like to know if it is worth the $100.
Thank You


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Does anyone have any photos of this thing? I curious to see what you get for 100.00 Obvously it is a chuff amplifier but what kind of design? Like Bill stated Id like to see it to buy it.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes Photo please and also how dificult is it to install?  Later RJD


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## NHSTEAMER (Jan 2, 2008)

I spoke to Richard last night he states that install is very easy, you just cut down the chuff pipe and it slides on snuggly. Understandably he dose not want to post any photos due to it most likely will be copied. So I decided to order one for my GS-4, I will post how it sounds after install.


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## trainmax (Feb 16, 2008)

OK here's the deal I have installed this on A K27,K28 GS4,C16, Mogul and a Ruby. They all work well however the Ruby sounded good but in a noise room it would be hard to hear. Sorry no photos of the Bark Box Besides what it look like does not matter, what it sounds like HA HA now that's what counts.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Nothing against the product being discussed; I love the stack talk only if  it related to top performance.  If one gets the chance compare the stock setup of Aster and Accucraft GS4 for sound relative to performance. 
Kinda like someone who's car has a good exhaust sound but it ain't going any where fast!


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

It would be interesting to see what effect (if any) these have on the engine's performance and on the steam plume. They certainly sound impressive.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I would have to assume that it is similar to these. I forget who posted these in the past on here. Anyway I copied them fo my files for later reference to try and build. There are a few that someone made the same design using a .45 cartridge. 

I'll have to check out Bill's Although he does have the proper nozzle and petticoat exact from the Aster GS4 so I assume that would affect the draft a bit? Who knows....


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jay
I know someone who knows...
Placing a sound relfection device onto an engine that has loud stack talk due to problematic steam delivery is one thing but it could aggravate based on the principles as expressed by Gordon Watson (as per G1MRA post) related to smokebox components:
The basic requirements are, 1- blast nozzle approximately 1/10th diameter of cylinder daimeter  
 
2-  Blast nozzle must be vertical under the chimney,and exactly centred!  
 
3-  Blast nozzle distance from face of nozzle to chimney bottom is determined by diameter of the internal chimney in aratio of 1 to 3  .its best to make a simple conical test piece, whcih can drop into the nozzle, this will set hieght and alignment both at the same time.
 
4- Its quite easy to make the blast nozzle an adjustable screwed top , and copper pipe underneath , this allows vertical adjustment and alignment .
 
5-  The blower tip should be very small! lots of locos waste large amounts of steam raising pressure. 0.5mm is fine.and of course the blower tip must not be in the gas stream of the blast nozzle and aligned to blow up the chimney!
6- When designing the smokebox, think about how it will assemble and seal..if you can work in an automatic seal around the blast nozzle using aO ring or similar so tha bolting down the smokebox pulls it down onto that,,easier than doing a brickies trowelling job with sealant around the pipes,.
   Gordon Watson
 
So, if one could combine the above principles with a sound box we would be able to get rid of sound systems in certain live steam engines!  In practical operational sense it seems to me that at this point one will have to choose from either a good running engine or a good sounding engine based on desing principles.


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## trainmax (Feb 16, 2008)

Well I can tell ya there is no effect on the performance of any kind. I can't say if it makes more or less plume, But the way it's made you would think it would make more. But so far I have only run my K in hot weather so I cant tell. There's two other things that happen when you install a Bark Box, #1 Your Locomotive will never every spit out the stack again every. #2 As time goes by steam oil residue will accumulate on the baffles in the Bark Box and when you fire your locomotive up it burns off makes a nice plume just sitting there waiting for the water to boil . 

Richard


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes Charles I did see Gordons post yesterday and Copied it to my folder for when I need it. That coal fired mogul for one!


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## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

Soni Honegger used a .50 caliber casing in his K-27. It was identical in principle to the one Jay posted, though the implementation was a bit different, of course. It worked well, though not as well as what I was hearing in that video.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Kovacjr on 03/04/2008 5:59 PM
I would have to assume that it is similar to these. I forget who posted these in the past on here. Anyway I copied them fo my files for later reference to try and build. There are a few that someone made the same design using a .45 cartridge. 

I'll have to check out Bill's Although he does have the proper nozzle and petticoat exact from the Aster GS4 so I assume that would affect the draft a bit? Who knows....












This is a "Chuff Enhancer" by David Bailey built for his C-21 #361 (these are his photos).  The curve in the pipe is to center the exhaust under the stack.  Made from brass tubing; he was selling them via his website 2 or 3 years ago but they're no longers there.  Similar principle to blowing across the top of a bottle and it works pretty well.  I think David's shows it doesn't have to be all that complciated to work.    

A few years ago I asked Larry Bangham if he'd ever worked on a way to improve a steamer's exhaust, like his whistles.  He said he had for a few different locos but never written anything up.  Interesting to hear how he did it.

Seeing and hearing The Bark Box at Diamondhead was interesting.  It seemed a little too loud to me at DH, and the video clip seems the same.   I think it needs some tuning and maybe a volume control.   I definitely don't want it drowning out one of Bob Weltyk's whistles. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif  

Seems worth giving one a try.


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## fgw745 (Jan 18, 2008)

Chris , it sounds to me that you are knocking the barkboxes that you think will over power your Weltyk's whistle. I have heard many of these in person on different locomotives that also have Weltyk's whistles and these two products complement each other, they are like music to my ears. There is nothing like hearing a locomotive equipped with these products chuffing around the bend just like the full size locomotives and then hearing the beautiful blast of the whistle,and with steam coming out the stack, head and marker lights lit is just the icing on the cake. As for the bark box being to loud, remember, whistles and steam exhaust have the same amount of steam pressure from the boiler,just like full size locomotives. Do you have some sort of 1.20.3 scale volume measuring device? we should feel lucky that there are such ingenious people in this great hobby of ours that can conceive such clever little devices that make our hobby so much more enjoyable. Thank god for Bob Weltyk and his whistles and Chris and Richie's Cajun Barkbox chuff enhancers. Now all We need is for someone to come up with a realistic sounding bell that swings automatically. 
Ferd Webber 
B.L.S.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By fgw745 on 05/31/2008 3:29 PM
Chris , it sounds to me that you are knocking the barkboxes that you think will over power your Weltyk's whistle. I have heard many of these in person on different locomotives that also have Weltyk's whistles and these two products complement each other, they are like music to my ears. There is nothing like hearing a locomotive equipped with these products chuffing around the bend just like the full size locomotives and then hearing the beautiful blast of the whistle,and with steam coming out the stack, head and marker lights lit is just the icing on the cake. As for the bark box being to loud, remember, whistles and steam exhaust have the same amount of steam pressure from the boiler,just like full size locomotives. Do you have some sort of 1.20.3 scale volume measuring device? we should feel lucky that there are such ingenious people in this great hobby of ours that can conceive such clever little devices that make our hobby so much more enjoyable. Thank god for Bob Weltyk and his whistles and Chris and Richie's Cajun Barkbox chuff enhancers. Now all We need is for someone to come up with a realistic sounding bell that swings automatically. 
Ferd Webber 
B.L.S.




Ferd:

You said, "...just like the full size", could say it is the real thing given the bark box's volume  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif 


The tone and volume of sound depends on a number of factors beyond steam pressure, for example a whistle the resonator, aperature, etc. 


A Bell? Very interesting and I'd love one too. 

Bob Pope has shown how to do this on his great diesel. He actually mounted a real bell maybe 2.5" (maybe 3") in his diesel. I'm a little sketchy on the details of how it rings other than it is R/C controlled. It sounds really great. There is space in the rear portion of the tender behind the baffle plate of Accucraft's locos (K's and C-21, etc.) So there is a proven method and a place now all we need is for someone to do it and then write it up of start selling a setup, a module maybe with servo for a solenoid/plunger or cord to pull the ringer, that you install and connect to your R/C receiver. 


Now, how to access the rear of the tender blocked by a baffle plate. Torry K. uses a torch in the center of the plate heating it until the side's solder joint breaks and it falls off leaving not a mark on the exterior paint. To still allow for a gas tank water bath, put the bell in a plastic or better metal (brass) open top box with the electronics. Or glue a metal or plastic baffle in place after adding the bell + electronics. 


There you have your bell. Of course you pick a bell that is the largest that will fit in the tender. Seems to me the bell sound will resonate in the tender and be louder than if it were outside. So there is your method. 

Bob Pope: 
Where did you get your bell and how is it controlled on your desiel?


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a Bark Box and a Weltyk's whistle in my K-27. Judge for yourself. 
All I need is a bell and I'm figuring that out. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slPA4GyoPEg


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## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

That brings to mind a funny story: One of the guys in the Nashville club made the move to riding scale, and came by the club meeting one day pulling a trailer, on which sat his new 7.5" gauge steamer. It wasn't under steam, of course, so he couldn't blow the whistle, but he did grab the cord and ring the bell, which was about 6" diameter and mounted under the boiler, between the frames. 

One of the kids in the club stuck his head so he could see the bell and called out "Wow, look at the big old dinger hanging down under there!" There were enough farmboys in the group that the remark got a huge laugh.


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## trainmax (Feb 16, 2008)

So how did it work out did you have time to install the Bark Box yet? 
I put one in a GS-4 about a week ago it sounded good.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I definitely don't want it drowning out one of Bob Weltyk's whistles.


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight, 
I don't know where the whistle drowning rumor came from, but it's not an issue. The bark box and whistle complement each other. Take a look at this:


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

That was supposed to be a jab at Chris Carl.  Actually, I think it sounds damn good! I may pick one up for #21.


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## trainmax (Feb 16, 2008)

Tom your Bark Boxs are ready I will get them out ASAP. 
Richard


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## David Halfpenny (Sep 24, 2008)

Carl,

I've taken the liberty of editing part of your K27 Bark Box video and reposting it.

I'm afraid my capture software has degraded the image, but I hope you'll like the sound and the motion of the cars.




Apart from selecting a clip, I've just made one teeny change ;-) 



David
England


PS I will delete it if you would prefer.


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave,
Thanks for the try, but the video no longer sounds like the Bark Box actually sounds and neither does the whistle. Sigificant degridation was already present because the original was an analog video thaat I had to convert to digital to post it. I'd rather you delete your changes. Carl


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## David Halfpenny (Sep 24, 2008)

As requested, Carl, I've removed the edited video - thanks for sharing the original.

I appreciate that you wanted to convey the actual sound of the model, and you are quite right that my version no longer does. 

That was actually the point of trying it. Although we cannot scale time as we live it, we can scale the appearance of time using a movie camera. That is how Hollywood can make a small model look like something big, and with a lot more inertia. 

By reducing the speed of the movie (one click in 'free' Windows software) the sounds and motion get a step closer to the full size.So much so that on some G1 models with good stack talk, the sound has been mistaken for dubbed-on full size sound.

David


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

David, Thanks. 
For clarification of my reason, I was Richard's very first Bark Box customer and wanted to assist him with conveying the capability of the device. I notice that people are still watching with viewers already up to 2,163. 
However, I am interested in what software you are using to slow down the video as there are times I've wanted to do just that. Can you please enlighten me.
Carl


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## David Halfpenny (Sep 24, 2008)

That is an excellent reason for wanting your videos to stay unmolested. 

The speed change was done in Windows Movie Maker, which is part of Windows XP and Vista. (If your Vista won't run it, download WMM 2.6) 

On the View Video Effects menu, drag the item "Slow Down, Half" onto your clip. This slows down the sway of leaves, coaches etc, drops the sound an octave, and makes everything look more solid than it is. Doing it twice, to quarter the speed, just loses the sound. 

A better method is to record the movie at double the usual frame rate if your camera will do that, and play it back at normal rate. 

Here is the video that an expert on these locomotives thought had been dubbed with full-size sound: 



Apologies to those who have seen it before, and thanks to the maker for permission to post it. 

David


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

David,
I am using Windows Movie Maker v 6, build 6001, which runs under Vista 64 bit. This version does not have a slowdown capability in video effects. I don't think I want to go back 4 versions just to get it. Thanks for the information.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By weaverc on 11/01/2008 1:16 PM
David,
I am using Windows Movie Maker v 6, build 6001, which runs under Vista 64 bit. This version does not have a slowdown capability in video effects. I don't think I want to go back 4 versions just to get it. Thanks for the information.



It is there - I'm running the same version. Drag your clip into the storyboard and then select Clip--->Video-->Effects and scroll down.......


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks, I was looking in the wrong video effects area on the left and not in the clip effects above. I'll give it a try.


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