# Water Features - Plastic Pre-form or Pond Liner?



## Guest (Apr 6, 2008)

I want to put a small pond on my layout but I'm not sure which is better and EASIER - a pre-formed plastic pond insert or to use a pond liner? Any thoughts?


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

A pre-formed insert has the advantage that you can see what size & shape it is when you buy it. The down-side is that you have to dig just the right shape hole (or dig extra and fill around the liner). You are also limited to when you can find for sale. A liner will be a little more work to install, since you have to be a tad bit more careful not to go poking holes in it. On the other hand, whatever hole you dig is always the perfect shape! Also, you can decide exactly what shape you want.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I started off with a 100 gallon plastic tub pond liner. Not near big enough for anything. The pump was located inside the pond tub, so that left little room for anything else, like fish or plants. I now have a 1500 gallon pond with an EPDM liner. I think you can have a nice pond with either method, but I would stress think bigger than 100 gallons. 

Another thought ... getting the pre-formed pond level was a real bear. It was warped slightly, so no matter what I did, I had a low spot somewhere along an edge. Don't be afraid of pond liners. It is really easy to do.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2008)

So when you use a liner, do you just dig the hole and lay the liner in the hole? Or, do you have to have some kind of base sand or something spread out in the hole under the liner?


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

You need to cushion the liner. Old carpet is great for that. Sand will work on the bottom part. There are LOTS of web sites with instructions on how to put in a pond and tell you which materials work well...and which don't.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Ed Harvey on 04/06/2008 12:56 PM 
I want to put a small pond on my layout but I'm not sure which is better and EASIER - a pre-formed plastic pond insert or to use a pond liner? Any thoughts?

Neither! The cheapest and maybe most realistic method is to "hand slap" your own concrete into any shape you desire. Use a "chicken wire" frame for steep vertical sides as necessary. 
You can texture it using crinkled aluminum foil pressed into the setting concrete. Alternatively, when the concrete dries, apply a "thinned" layer of mortar/mason's mix on top and texture that. 
You can also add dye to the concrete/mortar so the color goes all through. Alternatively, if you want to leave water in it (or have fish), paint it with a coat of "Drylock" which makes the masonry impervious to water. You can add color layers of ordinary house paint on top of that. If your masonry cracks, you can use "Drylock hydraulic cement" to fix the cracks (can even apply it underwater!) 
All of our lakes, rivers, and even ridgelines have been done this way with good results.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 04/06/2008 3:32 PM

Posted By Ed Harvey on 04/06/2008 12:56 PM I want to put a small pond on my layout but I'm not sure which is better and EASIER - a pre-formed plastic pond insert or to use a pond liner? Any thoughts?

Neither! The cheapest and maybe most realistic method is to "hand slap" your own concrete into any shape you desire. Use a "chicken wire" frame for steep vertical sides as necessary. You can texture it using crinkled aluminum foil pressed into the setting concrete. Alternatively, when the concrete dries, apply a "thinned" layer of mortar/mason's mix on top and texture that. You can also add dye to the concrete/mortar so the color goes all through. Alternatively, if you want to leave water in it (or have fish), paint it with a coat of "Drylock" which makes the masonry impervious to water. You can add color layers of ordinary house paint on top of that. If your masonry cracks, you can use "Drylock hydraulic cement" to fix the cracks (can even apply it underwater!) All of our lakes, rivers, and even ridgelines have been done this way with good results. 











Great suggestion. I will consider this method for my Phase III model RR line.  As always, the garden model RR construction methods brought forward here on MLS are excellent.


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## sheepdog (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I don't live in So. Calf. like Todd and it freezes pretty hard here in the N.E. Hoosierland. 

Ric Golding had a great idea that was a smidge too late for my pond but worked great for the stream/river/gorge that I wanted. Sandbags!!!



Lets see if this works....


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## leonpete (Jan 4, 2008)

Hi ED, 
I can only respond to using the preformed pond linner. Mine has been out 3 Iowa winters now and holding up well. I put a floating heater in it this year and left the fish out all winter. No ice at all this winter and all the fish survived the winter. I never fed the fish all winter and as of today 4/06/08 they have not been fed yet. Will wait till it warms up. One tip, don't tamp the dirt TOOOO HARD when filling in around the liner as it may raise part of the liner and give you a high spot. That happened to me but I left it [the part that sticks out on the right side of the pond in the picture] as I didn't want to dig out the pond. I did use a liner to make the water fall. Had a pile of dirt and cut steps into the dirt about the size of the rocks I was using, layed the liner down ran a water line to the top and added the rocks. Check with all the places that sell ponds and get the one you like best. Mine is 24" deep. 
I'm sure either way will give you a nice pond.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you are going to make a cement pond, it WILL eventually crack and leak a bit. Any cementitious coating will crack also. You either need a thick rubber liner (hard to follow complex curves but inexpensive) or coat the inside with a rubberized coating (which I have done with my 2 fountains at my house. The stuff I used lasted 8 years in the sun and water, and just needs a refresher coat now. The stuff is Herco Rubber Pond Coating (google it for the closest place to get it)... It's the only stuff I have ever seen that lasts... it's really liquid rubber, and it is completely non-toxic to fish. You just paint it on. 

Absolutely the best stuff for a cement pond. 

Regards, Greg


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## MarkLewis (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blackburn49 on 04/06/2008 4:26 PM
Posted By toddalin on 04/06/2008 3:32 PM

Posted By Ed Harvey on 04/06/2008 12:56 PM I want to put a small pond on my layout but I'm not sure which is better and EASIER - a pre-formed plastic pond insert or to use a pond liner? Any thoughts?

Neither! The cheapest and maybe most realistic method is to "hand slap" your own concrete into any shape you desire. Use a "chicken wire" frame for steep vertical sides as necessary. You can texture it using crinkled aluminum foil pressed into the setting concrete. Alternatively, when the concrete dries, apply a "thinned" layer of mortar/mason's mix on top and texture that. You can also add dye to the concrete/mortar so the color goes all through. Alternatively, if you want to leave water in it (or have fish), paint it with a coat of "Drylock" which makes the masonry impervious to water. You can add color layers of ordinary house paint on top of that. If your masonry cracks, you can use "Drylock hydraulic cement" to fix the cracks (can even apply it underwater!) All of our lakes, rivers, and even ridgelines have been done this way with good results. 











Great suggestion. I will consider this method for my Phase III model RR line.  As always, the garden model RR construction methods brought forward here on MLS are excellent. 








Additionally, if you're building a large pond, consider construction with gunite over rebar. It's very fast if you use a commercial gunite applicator. Build in provisions for bottom drains, plumbing, and skimmers before applying the gunite. 

With any concrete product spraying a rubberized overcoat is something to consider as well. 

Mark


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## Dan Moore (Jan 3, 2008)

45 mil rubber roofing from a roofing co. You can buy scraps cheap. Pre forms are a pain besides you have to dig a hole either way.


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

I have stubbornly tried preformed liners three different times and never been happy with the results -- understatement. 
It's impossible to dig an exact hole for them and if you dig oversize and backfill the soil around it is loose, then if water gets underneath the pond (say...it rains) it will lift it up and float it up nice high and ugly as sin. 

If not concrete, rubber sheet liners are the way to go.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

why not use both...? I had planned on running water out of a high "rock" and down a creek bed (all lined with somekind of liner) and ending up in the pre-formed pond I already have. Basically using the pond to catch and re-pump back to the natural spring beginning.?.? Just measured about 144'. I assume I need to do this 1st before any other landscaping eh? I hope to bribe Ric into coming down and schooling me on it.


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## leonpete (Jan 4, 2008)

I can say that I have not had any problem with rain raising my preformed pond liner up out of the ground or frost heave .


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 04/08/2008 7:13 PM
why not use both...? I had planned on running water out of a high "rock" and down a creek bed (all lined with somekind of liner) and ending up in the pre-formed pond I already have. Basically using the pond to catch and re-pump back to the natural spring beginning.?.? Just measured about 144'. I assume I need to do this 1st before any other landscaping eh? I hope to bribe Ric into coming down and schooling me on it. " border=0>




Just keep in mind that to feed a stream 144 feet long, you are going to need a pretty large reservoir of water to fill the stream. Pre-formed ponds are usually pretty small. You may drain your pond trying to get the stream started, then add water to fill it back up. However, if and when the pump stops, you will now flood your pond, unless you install a check valve in the feed pipe to keep it from draining back into the pond.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 04/08/2008 7:13 PM 
why not use both...? I had planned on running water out of a high "rock" and down a creek bed (all lined with somekind of liner) and ending up in the pre-formed pond I already have. Basically using the pond to catch and re-pump back to the natural spring beginning.?.? Just measured about 144'. I assume I need to do this 1st before any other landscaping eh? I hope to bribe Ric into coming down and schooling me on it. " border=0>" border=0>" border=0>

Be careful when planning this length of run. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif" 
Your lake would typically need to be able to contain most of its own volume as well as what water is in the river and piping. Otherwise, when you shut off the pump your river and piping will drain down to the lake and overflow it. On the other hand, if you leave enough space to accomodate this "river water," your lake will look pretty empty once the pump comes on and moves the water to the river. 
Just something to consider beforhand. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif" 
Edit: 
Oops! I see that Del is on top of this too.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I never considered this guys.../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif thanks. I do have a well and the water is freeeeeeee.  The pipe will only be like 20 foot long, the river will be a huge loop. I have planned a mainline to the basement (storage) that will follow the river. Problems.... Like I said I measured out about 140 foot loop but it runs dwn a pretty steep hill. I figure at 3% grade I can only drop about 4.5 foot max. I need to make every bit of 10 foot! I could go into the basement higher up the window but not sure how. I sure wish I could post some pics!


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## bryanj (Jan 2, 2008)

We get very little heaving here. But I used 45 Mil Liner and cover the stream with cement to look more realistic with imbeded rocks.Problem was it changed the Ph of the water some which is higher here anyhow.I put some deep pockets in the stream so the mosquito fish could live there.Has worked out fine for 6 yrs. now. 
The problem I have heard about roofing rubber is it is treated with mildew resistant chemicals that can effect the fish. I also have a large preformed I have'nt used in yrs. It was a pain to dig out just right and backfill properly, but if you have lots of time ! I would backfill some then hose it down to settle the dirt and backfill more, etc.


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## KYYADA (Mar 24, 2008)

If you use a pre formed pond you can pin it down with rebar but not through the pond of course! If you do not pin it down it will float up....If you use a liner it is best to limit the surface area and go deeper if you want fish. I think the guide is five to ten gallons per one inch of fish length. If you have a large surface area exposed to the sun you will have a time with algae. Another way to avoid that is to have the surface covered in plants. 

To the person building the 144' stream you could bury a plastic barrel with the inlet about 1" below your pond surface. That way it could pump the barrel out and not effect your pond level over the inch difference and when the water made it back to the pond it would overflow in the barrel. There is ways to build a quiet overflow as to eliminate the suction sounds (google durso standpipes). 

Good Luck.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Ed, 

I had a preformed pond. I first year it came out of the ground, I drained 
the water out for winter. The next year I didn't drain the water and it stayed in the ground. I had it on the layout about five years it was more trouble then it was worth, I have it under my deck if you are interested.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I have installed about 6 ponds and all are a flexable EPDM liner with underlayment. The underlayment is available from the same pond stores the liner is from. Find a garden center that specilizes in ponds or water features. I also have lined al the ponds with boulders. 

When figuring the poind size go at least 1' larger all around as you will end up loosing area and making it smaller. 

As for concrete you still need a liner under it. Also if you plan to have fish with concrete you need a special blend mixed that does not have any lime in the mix. You may be ok using it on a stream that does not run all the time but a complete pond you can run into issues. 

I have many construction photos if anyone would like to see. PM me and I wil reply with them. 

Jay


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2008)

Don, 

With a sales pitch like that.....(ha ha).....what size is it? 

Ed


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## Steamnutt (Apr 12, 2008)

As a landscaper by trade, I've installed both types of ponds, and both have pro's and con's. If you are working with a rocky soil or have any tree roots close by, go with the pre-formed liners. I've installed a 300 gal. pre-form, so they do make them big. However if you want a really large pond, a liner is the way to go. As someone did say, you will have to put a cushion layer underneath to keep anything from poking a hole in the liner. 
I've also used combinations, where a preformed liner was a bog garden at the top of a hill, used liner material for the stream bed, then a preform at the bottom. 
I've also never had a preform "float" out of the ground, not even a small one. Maybe I'm lucky, but both requre prep work, and if not rushed, you will enjoy many years with either.


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ed Harvey on 04/06/2008 2:07 PM
So when you use a liner, do you just dig the hole and lay the liner in the hole? Or, do you have to have some kind of base sand or something spread out in the hole under the liner?





Technically, you're supposed to use geotextile underlay, but depending on your soil conditions, proximity to trees, and size of your pond, that's not always necessary.


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## John B (Jan 2, 2008)

I have about a 500 gallon pond using the flexable pond liner material. I used old carpet for the underlayment. I purchased the liner, pump, skimmer and filter from www.pondliner.com 







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## markperr (Jan 7, 2008)

Biblegrove; 

Having a well is a big plus. Just make sure that if you have a water softener in the system that you fill your pond from AFTER the softener. Two reasons. If you have high iron or manganese or other metal in your water, It's not good for the fish. Also, if you use standard water softener salt, it adds a level of salt to the water, which is beneficial to the fish.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Yeap.... water straight from God's good earth.  

link to installation pictures would be great! 
thanks


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## LOST AND CONFUSED (Mar 7, 2008)

I have one of each type. The preformed pond has been in service 4 years. Its not hard 

to shape the whole. Oversize it and fill in with play sand .I spent much more time on my pond liner they both look great but the pond liner is bunching up 

near the top it gets hot in florida and gets down in the low 30s but it still 

holds water. the preform has much thicker walls so it would hold up better 

in the colder climate. You would want a barrier under it to protect it from freezing old carpet or small river rocks to lay it on before filling it up. 

I have a 8 foot bridge going over my pond it is the highlight of my layout. 

So it was worth the time to put it in


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I finally found the photos I was looking for, here are a few shots of my pond I built 5 years ago. It really has grown in now compared to the photos...I had used the geotextile underlayment along with 45mil liner. Both from a local pond store. This was my first pond went a little overboard. There were a few others I had done after this one for my cousins landscaping business. 

The big dig 21 x 13 x 40" deep 









I installed a skimmer and biofalls 

















The whole pond and area is lined with a tandem of boulders and another 10 yards of 1-3" and 3/4" stone. About a total of 55-60,000 lbs of stone moved by hand!! 









Here is it filled 









About a year later 









Here is another I built.


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

jason, that is a work of art, cool pics, but it looks like a lot of work in the beginning/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/satisfied.gif 

tom h


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom - It isnt that bad I enjoyed doing it, took my time. The waterfall took 3 or 4 days of playing with different boulders to get the effecxt I wanted. 5600GPH pump with a 6' head so it didnt drop off much from there. What a flow over the falls about 1" thick wateflow. Overall from digging to filled was about a month but the hose was dug and liner was in in 2 days. The rocks took much more time. Hardent part was designing what it would look like since the yard is totally flat. Couldnt have a huge fall like I wanted but its nice. 

Another key point with stream is it takes a lot of water to fill the stream. My stream is about 18' stretched out straight with a depth of 1' in pockets. It lowers the pond by almost 2" so thats about 300 gallons in the stream, piping and falls. With a smaller pond that can mean you just drained you pond dry before it startes to recirculate. Now if you plan to not turn the pump off you can get away with a smaller pong but when the pump goes off you can and most likely will over flow the pond. Mine funs for 9 hrs a day along with the UV lights.


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