# Scratch built N&W class J's



## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

Decided to start a new project.... 2 N&W class J's one for me and another as a gift for a friend.... Here's some pictures of the frames and cylinders in progress and the patterns to cast the drivers.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Going to enjoy following your build. i see the locomotive will be alcohol fired. Would have been a bit more unique doing the 600.


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

Actually they will be numbered 609 and 610.... 600- 604 have different running gear i.e. crossheads and siderods .... for cosmetic reasons I like the 605- 614 better


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

The 600-604 had an alligator type cross head and duel center main drive rods... the 605-614 had the traditional cross head and single main rods


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

Just wanted to update progress on these builds... been working in the crosshead guide yokes, trailing truck frames and the pilots which i had to make twice due to the fact that i could not find my drawing for them  but in the end they should turn out ok..... still have a LONG way to go


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

WOW
Looking very nice
Good to see another builder posting here
I too will enjoy following the build


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

Thanks everyone...,. its encouraging to hear your feedback


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

Well I've been in vacation this week so I took the opportunity to work on the class J's... been machining the parts for the baker valve gear frames and silver soldering them together.... Now that I've received some tools to replace some worn-out ones... I'm going to finish the axle bearings and cylinders.. and weather permitting here in southern Illinois I will get the divers cast and machined.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Looking good

What are you using for your Baker gear design?

I don't know if you have seen this before. It is very lengthy and is mostly about how to set up the gear after it is purchased but starting on page 45 you will find dimensions for the various ratios which can be scaled down

http://www.solidesign.bizland.com/pdf/Baker Valve Gear 1946.pdf


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

I was just gonna scale down the prototype but thank you for the info it may save me alot of headaches


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Yes
I scaled down the Triplex and it worked ok
We used these dimensions scaled down for the O5 and it seems to work a little better.
We used the 3:1 gear set but it looks like the J's may have had a 4 or 5 to one judging from the size of the return crank.
I'll be interested to see what you come up with


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Another great project. Which has even more valour as the loco is available off the shelf!
This is making this forum a real great site for learning how to do it. After all these years of Greenley, LBSC Martin Evans and JVR a great way to push on.


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

Been busy making progress on the class j's, machined all the main axle bearings, completed both pilots, made a few more parts for the valve gear sets... lots or repetitive small parts... but most importantly I began the long and tedious process of casting the main drive wheels.


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

Are the drive wheels cast in steel?


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Looking nice
I assume the wheels are Zamac


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

excellent project!


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

The castings are 3034 aluminum... I know its not an ideal material but it is easy to work with and ive had no problems with my other locomotive... besides I can always make replacements


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Great work. We're following this closely.

vr Bob


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

What material are you going to use for the tires?


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

by the looks of the driving wheels the tires are cast on and the the flange will be machined on.


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

I just machine the tires directly in the casting, the aluminum provides good grip of the rail.... albeit they do wear faster.... but since I have the patterns I can make as many as I wish.... so when they do wear out, I can either turn them down and add a stainless steel tire or just cast new ones... one good thing about them is their is no waste... I can melt them down and reuse the material if I choose. This picture is of the drivers I made for my mikado with a few spares... as you can see the tire is machined directly into the casting.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Seems to be a bit more unnecessary work to cast, machine and quarter drivers again and again. Your work is excellent, why not do it once and get it done? Machine a stainless tire would be the best option to compliment the fine work you are doing.


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

Thank you Charles... I do have a few spare castings I think I will make a few test parts to develop the correct procedure.... my locomotives do see light use so I haven't had to repair any drivers yet.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

We have used Zamak 3 for cast wheels in the past. It is a little harder than the Aluminum, machines better and pours at a lower temperature.
So far, I have seen zero signs of wear on the wheels but I am not running them every day either.

Keep up the great work and the posts
Thanks


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

bille1906 said:


> We have used Zamak 3 for cast wheels in the past. It is a little harder than the Aluminum, machines better and pours at a lower temperature.
> So far, I have seen zero signs of wear on the wheels but I am not running them every day either.
> 
> Keep up the great work and the posts
> Thanks


Billie do you know of a good supplier for Zamak I'd like to try it


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

The Zamac drivers on the Chapelon pacific are notorious for comming loose, I know of two cases in particular the rear driver which is alongside of the trapezoïdal firebox. 

The trapezoïdal firebox was developed by the Société Alsacienne de Construction Mécaniques, ancestor of Alsthom as a compromise between the advantages of a long deep narrow firebox and a wide firebox, thus its trapezoïdal grate and shape. It was used on quite a number of French locomotives around 1907-1922 and some export engines. Thus the rear driver is alongside the front of the firebox and heats that set more than the others. But I have seen it happen to the center main driver also.

Why not go for cast iron drivers? These used to be the standard fare in gauge one and have slowly been replaced by other ones with stainless steel driver tires. An evolution surely pressed onto us by collectors who amass shelve queens. Stainless steel tires are notorious for increased slippage of locomotives on greassy track like at GTGs. Cast iron dig in better. Of course they are a bit more difficult to machine but I wouldn't use any thing else on a scratchbuilt engine. Especially since all manufacturers have abandonned insulating right hand drivers from left hand ones for compatibility with electric track powered engines. It is about time we live steamers in gauge one, imposed on the manufacturers components made from the proper material like excluding brass from any hardware beneath the water level of the boiler (clack valves, bushes, water levels regulator or blower to a lesser extent -The better material would be bronze) and cast iron drivers. The time when Fulgurex was running the barn yard (a notable collector: the Count) is passed. The only loco I ever saw running with what seemed like nickel plated driver rims was an Ae 6/6 around Zurich in 1994 and I think it was a private joke by the shop crews that must have varnished them after turning for the fun of it, it really looked queer. But then, the Swiss are the ultimate railfans.
But for an engine with light use such as Pickleford is planning I guess using aluminum might be a simpler solution.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

What about good old Bronze for your drivers? At 1850 degrees I can melt it in my electric furnace and pour into the vacuum assist casting machine... Should wear like forever?


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Try this for the Zamak
https://www.rotometals.com/zamak-3-ingot-aluminum-4-zinc-96/

Simon
Cast Iron wheels from sources like Walsall are great but they don't always have the correct size or pattern you are looking for. Home casting of cast iron requires more equipment and skill than the average hobbyist usually possesses.

Zamac can be cast in a plaster mold (Hydro Cal) at relative low temperatures

Not sure how hot the Société Alsacienne de Construction Mécanique wheels got but if it was over 500 degrees for an extended period, it could possibly pose a problem

There are multitude alloys of Zamak, Zamak 3 being the best for wheel casting. 
Earlier Zinc alloys had lead in the mixture (pot metal) which made for easier casting but low strength and longevity

Here is a 10 spoke Heisler wheel in Zamak


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Totalwrecker
What is a vacuum assist casting machine
Can you start a new thread and go through the procedure?


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi Bill: The Société Alsacienne de Construction Mécanique (SACM) design was for a firebox not the wheels. It was a design like a Belpaire or Wooten or again radial firebox that was a compromise between the long and narrow firebox and the wide firebox. It equiped the Chapelon pacifics which were 1929 rebuilds of engines made by the SACM in 1908. 
What I meant about that was, that the Aster Chapelon has Zamac wheels with stainless steel tires (rim insulated with a thin sheet of some heat resistantant plastic) that is what can hapen to zamac wheels. I had to fix mine last year as both the wheels and the tires had come loose! Great fun.
I agree 100% though that home casting in iron would be quite a problem. but between Mark Wood, Walsall, Just the Ticket I think that we probably can find most of what we need. Besides these manufacturers or cotage business probably need all the support (business) they can get from us loco builders, through the orders we can give them. 
I know all about odd paterns as most French locos were compounds and they often had counterweights in diferent positions than simples.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Sorry I didn't introduce myself.
I''m John.
In a nutshell, it's lost wax casting. The vacuum replaces the spin part of casting. Helps eliminate bubbles and isn't as turbulent to the metal. I torch melted/spin cast for a dozen years, then we upgrade to vacuum castings. 
In my home shop I have;
https://www.riogrande.com/Product/V...forated-Flask-Casting-Machine-110-Volt/705118

I hope this didn't derail your thread. Some sparkies were interested, but decided to save a buck....
I can start a thread, if there is interest.
John



bille1906 said:


> Totalwrecker
> What is a vacuum assist casting machine
> Can you start a new thread and go through the procedure?


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

john
I for one would be interested in a start to finish thread on the subject


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's a link I bookmarked a while back for a supplier of custom wheels in Washington State, they seem to specialize in the ride-on scales but they also mention O gauge conversion wheelsets, so presumably they can produce G1 wheels as well. I have never ordered from them, but I saved the link for future reference...

Northwest Railroad Foundry & Supply: Wheels


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Bill,

Hmmm Which forum? 
Tools.

John


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Simon,

I was going to write you privately on this subject, but I decided to do it publicly in the case that others may have interest. I don't mind at all looking silly. ;-)

On the *Aster Nord,* and presumably similar vintage Aster models, you mention that the tires can separate from the wheels, especially on the drivers closest to the source of heat - rear drivers.

I have my Nord nearly back in "kit form" at this point, so this would be the time to address this issue if needed.

From our mutual friend, Hans Peter, I learned you have used _*Loctite 638*_ retaining compound to re-cement tires. I have 638 on hand.

My tires seem firmly fixed at room temperature, but I have not checked them for "looseness" when warm.

I have been thinking of boiling some water and heating the drivers to 200 F +/- comparatively safely. This should not harm the Zamac. If the tires are easily removable, I'd cement them in place using 638.

Thoughts? Opinions? Cautionary comments?


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Just make sure the loctite is fresh
I had some that was still six months away from the expiration date that lost a lot of it's holding power
640 and 668 are high temp high strength versions if you are concerned about the heat.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

bille1906 said:


> Just make sure the loctite is fresh
> I had some that was still six months away from the expiration date that lost a lot of it's holding power
> 640 and 668 are high temp high strength versions if you are concerned about the heat.


Bill, thank you.

I do not want to risk distracting further from this very interesting build thread by an obviously talented builder, though I thought it unusual to see aluminum castings for wheels sans tires . . . and Simon's input seemed to draw me in as well.

My wheels passed the sitting in boiled water test, so that ends the distraction from me. 

FYI Loctite 638 is good up to 300 F and can fill gaps up to .010 (.0.25 mm.) Will check out the other products that you have recommended. 

Thanks again . . .

Joe


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

This is what I love about this forum the free flow and exchange of ideas is great..... I do appreciate all of your comments, compliments and advise... I do loctite all of my drivers when I quarter them i also use a VERY mild tapered press fit... so far none of them have came loose from the axles and haven't seen any signs of wear on either the tires or flanges as of yet...... and I will add that slipping hasn't been a problem even on wet track..... so from a manufacturing stand point the benefits so far out weigh the potential problems... fingers crossed of course.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i was wondering something- in your pics of the cast drivers for the J's there were only 15 drivers? wont you need 16?


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Yes this is quite fascinating to consider all these casting processes. But when I need castings I find it better and probably more economical to hand the work to a foundry. At least it is so here and as long as he is still in business. 

By the way my Chapelon had been run quite a lot before when this happened, it had previously been owned By JVR who sold it to me. I wouldn't bother on a new engine but its good to know you can repair this way when it does eventually happen. And I hate to disapoint Bill but that 638 loctite was way over its expiration date and dates back to around 1996! Worked great... Thanks for the info on the high temperature locktite Bill, could be very useful if I have to do it again.


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> i was wondering something- in your pics of the cast drivers for the J's there were only 15 drivers? wont you need 16?


You are correct.... had to make to casting runs due to the limited amount of sand I have so I can only make 5 of those sized molds at a time.... I have to reprocess the sand and do it again.... next i will be casting the lead and trailing wheels. As far a economics go, it very inexpensive for me to make castings... my furnace uses propane and on a 16 lbs cylinder i can usually get at least 10 runs.... depending on how much metal I'm melting... I make my own patterns and use clean scrap.... so aside from initial investment into the equipment... the costs are surprisingly low.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I promise this is my last post on loctite but...
Just a word of caution. On old lictite on wheels, 24 hours after quartering, the loctite should be fully cured. Grab each wheel in one hand and turn as you would open a jar. If you turn as hard as you can and the bond holds, you are good.


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

bille1906 said:


> I promise this is my last post on loctite but...
> Just a word of caution. On old lictite on wheels, 24 hours after quartering, the loctite should be fully cured. Grab each wheel in one hand and turn as you would open a jar. If you turn as hard as you can and the bond holds, you are good.


 Thank you Billie and post all you wish I don't mind... and you are correct about it being old... and that reminds me I need to replace mine before I press the wheels on the axles.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I guess I was lucky then as I had to secure both the tire (and the insulation as I also run electrics) and the wheels. I ran the loco at Rail expo 1916 indoors this past fall so I think it will hold. The incident happened when runnig it indoors in Switzerland, I guess as I had always run it outdoors the air cooled the wheels enough to prevent any problems before.


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

Finally found some time to work on the class J's finished machining the drivers and axles just nee to quarter them and install the crank pins once they are made


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I didn't ask this before but are those wood patterns you made for your castings?


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

Yes they are..... pattern making is an art unto itself!


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

Just wanted to show some updates on my class J project... been awhile sorry


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Looks great
I was just thinking about this project the other day
Good to see it progressing
Will you be tin plating the side rods?


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

That's a Class J? I always thought a N&W Class J was an Atlantic.
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=USA&wheel=4-4-2&railroad=nw


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

N&W Class J


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## pickleford75 (May 3, 2012)

bille1906 said:


> Looks great
> I was just thinking about this project the other day
> Good to see it progressing
> Will you be tin plating the side rods?


Thank you. I do plan on nickel plating the rods at a later date


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