# 1:20.Me 2-6-6-2 Review



## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Durango Dan has posted a review of the New Bachmann Meyer/Mallet...link below

http://120pointme.blogspot.com/2009/01/bachmanns-1203-baldwin-2-6-6-2.html

A very comprehensive and interesting look into the latest offering from Philly.


cale


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

Can I assume the Consultant is none other than our own TOC?

John


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Excellent review. I wonder where he found a consultant so willing and able to help?







It really was a well written review that kept the politics out of it (pretty much anyway). Sounds like they aren't going to give up on the super socket yet. This loco has no interest for me, but will likely work well for others.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

A very interesting review! I have my suspicions as to the identity of the reviewer as many of you do too. Considering the past "unpleasantness" with the K-27 and the three-truck Shay, it's probably best that the reviewer stay anonymous so that the identity of said reviewer doesn't color our perception of the review. Personally, I'm gratefull that 1:20.me has given us such a comprehensive review as Bachmann sure hasn't given us anything but the usual "fluff!" Now, getting to the "guts" of the review, I am concerned about this binding of the valve gear! Also, it would seem that Bachmann is bound and determined to promote that "supersocket" no matter what! I wonder why they felt it necessary to change the socket again?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Stan has changed it every time in every new loco... although I would characterize the davenport as "less than super" ha ha! 

The super socket is now a relatively good clone of the Aristo one.. still one entire row of pins is not used. But look at the progress! The new main board is growing by leaps and bounds! What a success, soon it may take a big boy to hold one... 

(OK greg, be nice.... oh, I like track power... ha ha ha....)




The Bachmann police will be after me soon! They will no doubt be battering Durango Dan of who the unknown Technical Advisor is!) 

Regards, Greg


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

I liked the review but there are two important questions that for me are still unanswered ...

First of these ... is the valve gear issue noted on the reviewed loco an example of poor assembly (and QC) at B'mann or is it a generalized problem with many or most locos. Sadly, I know that each loco delivered from every supplier needs to be gone over and checked for broken details, loose screws or miswiring. But complex valve gear problems are not fun to resolve

Second ... there was no real commentary on actual operation. Perhaps given the valve gear fix the loco wasnt actually run. But drawbar pull and an informed comment of any likely problem in pulling heavy train on tough grades would be appreciated. For example, the knock on the K-27 now is that the incorrect gear ratio makes pulling a train of prototype length made up of the not too free rolling AMS cars a problem on even the slightest grades.

Regards ... Doug


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

I have one of these coming, but it's not here yet. Anyone else in the MLS community have one delivered (or ordered?) I too will be interested to see how they chalk up to the one in the review. 

The photos in the review, particuarly the comparison photos to the LGB unit show it to be a bit larger than I'd thought it would be after seeing some of the photos on the Bachmann site, which to me is a good thing. 

Matthew (OV)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Doug, are you asking about the "timing" issue, or the loose screws issue on the valve gear? 

on the operation, seems to run ok after the valve timing is fixed, although the gear train works somewhat differently that the K even though it's a double lead. 

I believe more information will be forthcoming on this last item. The gear ratio is good, and I believe the comment was it runs ok after the fixes. 

Regards, Greg


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## bobgrosh (Jan 2, 2008)

So, The K2 board was based on the Aristo socket.

According to Bachmann, the Kay was supposed to accept the Digitrax DG583AR decoder that fits in the Aristo socket.
Several people (including me) reported that when the DG583AR is installed in the socket, the Kay shuts down the booster with a false short circuit. (The Kay outputs very short, but high, current pulses on the rails due to a lack of current limiters on the two huge capacitors.)

When Bachmann announced the Mallet, I pre-ordered. Just as I did with the Kay. When Bachmann published pictures of the Mallet, I noticed the same capacitors and no current limiter. I asked Bachmann, on the Bachmann forum, about this and got the wrong answer. I immediately canceled my pre-order.

To date, nobody has stated that the new Mallet will accept the very decoder it was supposedly designed for, without putting disastrous current spikes on the DCC track signal.

Since I burned up the board in the Kay while making extensive mods to it, primarily due to the lands coming separated during soldering, and Bachmann has still not been able to furnish replacement parts, I think I will hold off a while longer on this loco.

B0B


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## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

*Greetings All,*

* This was a very well done review and un biased, thank goodness. All the electronic info is fine but would not change my opinion on wheather I would purchase one. I often remove all existing wiring in a loco a redo it to my liking. The information regarding removing the saddle tanks and the inner most structual stuff really benefited me. When I first caught wind of this loco 6 mos ago my first thought was to kitbash it and make it a more traditional loco w/tender combination. Since, from what the mystery reviewer had written and visuals from the pictures I will have to rethink or re evaluate my future "bachmann bash" project. *
*I find it more troubling that there may be potential problem with the linkage binding during operation. That seems to be the biggest issue. What good is fancy wiring/loose nuts and bolts/funky couplers/structual frame stuff if the wheels don't go round and round. 
Glen*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My "take" from all that I have heard is that by putting the valve gear into the right "phase" it can run well. I hope that the information on how to do this is made public, but it appears that it is not simple. 

We need the next installment. 

By the way, I made a comment about the socket changing. My understanding is that the socket itself is unchanged, in terms of pins, but the physical size of the board that carries it is much larger, and the circuitry "around the board" is somewhat changed. 

Again, we will need to wait for another installment in this area, but it APPEARS that the fundamental use of the socked, and the fundamental parts of the socket work as in the K. My apologies to Stan Ames, I did not do a good job in my first comment. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg


My concern with valve gear is simply ... is the fault on the loco revied just an isolated example and others are correct ... or are all the locos faulty in their assembly
On the issue of kitbashing the loco ... it should be kept in mind that the prototype as proposed is a tiny loco. I do not think that the loco would look scaled correctly with the saddle tanks removed unless the boiler were expanded. In that context the lack of supports and the sizing of the electronics etc should not be an issue. On the other hand if the bashed loco were to represent 1:24 scale then it would be a bigger issue. But is hard to fault the manufacturer for not taking that aspect into account.

Regards ... Doug


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Its certainly alot taller than that LGB Uintah in the pic, I'd like either one but I suspect even this "tiny" locomotive would be gargantuan on my even tinier layout, so no cigar from me till I get a closer look. 
I'm once again rather put off by the valve gear discovery and once yet again loose screws/parts issue, seams like every offering we get is half assembled, maybe they would do better offering it as a KIT and we put it together, then we can be sure its put together correctly. After all seams like each offering has to be immedialty dissassembled to fix all the loose issues or lubricate this and that. By offering it in KIT form they cut out all the jokers on the assembly line who can't seam to get it right no matter how much rice they threaten to take away at lunchtime for bad construction problems. Whats the difference if we have to tear it apart then reassemble it before we can even run it anyways. it just ends up a KIT on the dining room table, why not cut out the middleman and save us the whole issue of tearing it apart?

(sarcasm intended







)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think we need to hear from more people about the eccentrics to see what is really up. I suspect since there was little consistency in the one reviewed, that the factory does not know the importance of this alignment to running ability. 

But, the above is my personal speculation. 

I agree with you completely on the bashing. It's nice to have a loco that lends itself to bashing, but I suspect that this is one of the thing furthest from the minds of the people who go to all the work to make the model in the first place. Cannot fault Bachmann for this. (although that circuit board could certainly have been smaller!) 

Regards, Greg


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

*Interesting review - especially since this loco is the most likely next candidate on my personal "WANT!" *







*list. Hoping I can make it to the Amhearst Railway Society show in Springfield, MA in about 2 weeks (if "Old Man Winter" permits! *







*- he's had a REALLY NASTY *







*disposition around here so far this year!) to view it first-hand. Bachmann usually has a booth there with their latest wares on display *







*- I've usually been able to talk to the "Bach-man" himself about product issues. (Been there with the 3-truck Shay - which although it pulls like a horse, has required far MORE maintenance & modifications than my 2-truck Shays to keep it reliable. *







*).*

*In spite of some of the listed problems & shortcomings, I'm still VERY*







* interested in getting one. The "Meyer" (vs. true "Mallet") suspension I can live with; it might even be a substancial operational asset for me, even with relatively broad (69" min radius, 11.5 foot diameter) curves, I have one curve (even wider, 80" radius, 12 foot diameter), that still came close enough to a chain-link fence post (which also supports the roadbed! *







*- my railroad's elevated @ 2 feet off the ground), that the normal Mallet boiler overhang was a potential issue. (I had used my Bachmann GE 45-ton diesel - which is a model of a standard-gauged sized cab riding on 3-foot gauge trucks - to check clearance at that point when building the line! *







*). I suspect some of those who hoped to "bash" it into a "normal" tender engine may be a bit disappointed with the boiler/ saddle tank construction method *







*- but then who's to say you can't add an "auxiliary tender"*







*to it! (In a fact from the prototype, Sumpter Valley Railway found that when they converted the former Unitah 2-6-6-2T's to tender engines & removed the saddle tanks, they suddenly became VERY SLIPPERY *







*beasts!* - *SV Ry. wound up installing lengths of rail under the running boards *







*to make up for the weight loss from the saddle tank removal to restore tractive effort to them! *







*).*


*I'll also agree that the valve gear phasing / loose screw issues are annoying *







*QC issues on Bachmann's / Kader's part; this is one of the reasons I didn't RUSH to buy one like I did with the 3-truck Shay. However, before people "bash" *







* Bachmann too much on this - where else in model railroading are you going to find a loco of this size (& level of detail! *







*) for a "street price" of @ $600*







*(I WINCE *







*every time I come across one of the LGB / Aster Shays on eBay at @ $4500 typical asking price *







*- that's more than I paid for ALL SIX Shays (4 Bachmann's & 2 Accucraft LIVE STEAM Shays *







*) currently on my roster! *







*For the price the Mallet is going for, I'm willing to go on a "screw tightening" expedition. *







*Tom*


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Tom, 
Drop by the G Scale layout at the Amerst show and introduce yourself. 
LAO


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dougald on 01/12/2009 9:47 AM


Greg


My concern with valve gear is simply ... is the fault on the loco revied just an isolated example and others are correct ... or are all the locos faulty in their assembly
On the issue of kitbashing the loco ... it should be kept in mind that the prototype as proposed is a tiny loco. I do not think that the loco would look scaled correctly with the saddle tanks removed unless the boiler were expanded. In that context the lack of supports and the sizing of the electronics etc should not be an issue. On the other hand if the bashed loco were to represent 1:24 scale then it would be a bigger issue. But is hard to fault the manufacturer for not taking that aspect into account.

Regards ... Doug



Doug

Bachmann has a video of the 2-6-6-2 which includes several slow motion shots.

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/video.php

at about 2 minutes there is a good slow motion shot which shows the eccentrics. To me they appear to be working properly and working the same as the prototype video.

In the locomotive I have all 4 eccentrics are the same as in the video and the operation is very smooth.

The photo on the onetotwentypoint me blog shows a very funky eccentric

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jl-RFo6VUnk/SWmDX33bw8I/AAAAAAAABdI/EdBJSBqOwuE/s1600-h/Locked.JPG

I am amazed that this locomotive would even operate for a single wheel recolution.

Both the locomotive I have and the one in the Bachmann video were likely assembled by more trained individuals then the typical production locomotive so one would expect fewer problems. Both of these locomotive do provide two examples of how Bachmann intended them to operate.

So if the operation in the video is wrong then they are all wrong. If the operation in the video is correct then the locomotive reviewed is likely an assembly problem which hopefully is an isolated one.

Stan Ames
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By StanleyAmes on 01/12/2009 7:31 PM
Posted By Dougald on 01/12/2009 9:47 AM


Greg


My concern with valve gear is simply ... is the fault on the loco revied just an isolated example and others are correct ... or are all the locos faulty in their assembly
On the issue of kitbashing the loco ... it should be kept in mind that the prototype as proposed is a tiny loco. I do not think that the loco would look scaled correctly with the saddle tanks removed unless the boiler were expanded. In that context the lack of supports and the sizing of the electronics etc should not be an issue. On the other hand if the bashed loco were to represent 1:24 scale then it would be a bigger issue. But is hard to fault the manufacturer for not taking that aspect into account.

Regards ... Doug



Doug

Bachmann has a video of the 2-6-6-2 which includes several slow motion shots.

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/video.php

at about 2 minutes there is a good slow motion shot which shows the eccentrics. To me they appear to be working properly and working the same as the prototype video.

In the locomotive I have all 4 eccentrics are the same as in the video and the operation is very smooth.

The photo on the onetotwentypoint me blog shows a very funky eccentric

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jl-RFo6VUnk/SWmDX33bw8I/AAAAAAAABdI/EdBJSBqOwuE/s1600-h/Locked.JPG

I am amazed that this locomotive would even operate for a single wheel recolution.

Both the locomotive I have and the one in the Bachmann video were likely assembled by more trained individuals then the typical production locomotive so one would expect fewer problems. Both of these locomotive do provide two examples of how Bachmann intended them to operate.

So if the operation in the video is wrong then they are all wrong. If the operation in the video is correct then the locomotive reviewed is likely an assembly problem which hopefully is an isolated one.

Stan Ames
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/

First off, let me say I don't own one of these engines.
No intention of doing so.
However, I have been following the threads, videos and even the review as posted on the blog.


On your video:
The first part of the video is dark.
BUT WAIT!


Crossing over the paperclip on the track, the front engine has the eccentric pointing forward of the axle.
The rear engine has it pointing aft of the axle.


You even bother to LOOK at the prototype video of 110?
Next, in the Bachmann Video YOU linked:
The "pan" shots down both sides, on white table, no track.
Engineer's side, both eccentrics point.....forward of axle.

On the Fireman's side, lead engine, forward.
You tell me where the rear engine is pointing.

Then, just after the description of the Super Socket, nice, slow pass of the engineer's side.
The reverse links barely pass the horizontal.
And BOTH of them APPEAR to IMPACT the vertical links behind the reverse link proper!

Your statement that the one you and Bachmann have are better assembled is totally flawed.
That means YOU and BACHMANN are showing engines not of the same quality as those sent to the consumer.
How do you think the consumer will feel?

Whoever the Techincal Advisor is needs to be fired.
Obviously doesn't have the expertise to tie his own shoes.


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Both the locomotive I have and the one in the Bachmann video were likely assembled by more trained individuals then the typical production locomotive so one would expect fewer problems. Both of these locomotive do provide two examples of how Bachmann intended them to operate.


Stanley, 

I can understand receiving your above mentioned perks as the named Tech Adviser for Bachmann....but isn't everyone who purchases this/any product due the same quality control and testing/tweaking?...

Like all in the Hobby, I too hope the reviewed example is just one in a million and all will be well...if not...


And if I may- Are we, as mere consumers, to expect less than something that operates as "intended"? If that is indeed the direction that Bachmann/Kader is headed (and from recent releases it could appear as such)...then NOS looks better everyday!



Cale


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Chaps, 
For what its worth, typically where Walschaerts valve gear is applied to piston valves, the eccentric will face forward, or lead the main rod crank. When applied to slide valves, the eccentric faces aft. Reason is that the designers intended to the Johnson bar and reverse links to funtion identially regardless of whether piston or slide valves were used so they simply changed the location of the eccentric relative to the main rod. 

Piston valves typically have Inside admission and exhause to the outside, while slide valves are the reverse...thats why the valve travel work in opposition in both valve types. 

Piston valves became popular as boiler pressures increased and super heaters started to be used, where slide valves performed poorly. 

Many Mallets have piston valves on the rear engine and slide valves on the forward engine, becuase slide valves can handle the low pressure steam for the front cylinder, and thus the rear engine has the eccentric facing forward, and the front engine has the eccentric facing rearward. 

On the Bachmann model, all chassis units have piston valves, so in principle the eccentrics should all face forward..., I've not looked at the photos, other than have a nice side view of the 110 with all eccentrics facing forward (as seen from one side), as are some of those drawings and sketches around which would make sense. There are some Mallets with piston valves to both chassis, with the eccentrics still facing in opposite direction - you'll notice on these engines, the rear engine's radius rod is lifted from behing the reverse link, whille the front chassis has the radius rod lifted fore of the revese link...in forward operation,..when the Johnson bar is pushed forward, this lowers the forward radis rod, but raises the rear one! Thus the engine still goes in forward motion, despite the radius rod on the rear chassis being at top of reverse link, while forward chassis valve rod has the radius rod at bottom of reverse link. With pneumatic actuators working some of these lifting rods, I have no doubt that the same engine would have had its eccentrics changed over time depending on the set up of the actuators...confused..it all make sense when you check out the photos!

I'd look to see if the model works best with the eccentrics all forward. Also, if the mounting of the eccentric was like the K-27, and could face forward or aft almost equal distances, the actual eccentric travel about the hub should be idential regardless of which way the eccentric faces, and shouldn't bind up like Dave shows. How are those crank pins fixed I wonder...maybe the crank pin is not set in the right position causing the eccentric travel about the axle to be too wide..which will damage rods regardless of which way the eccentric faces. 

Darn good review Dave. 
I'll wait till I see one in person to decide whether to buy. I'm selling my K-27, dont run it enough! 

Ah just found some shots on the internet:
Side view, eccentrics lead main rod on both engine units:

http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/list/wt110a/weyer110ameh.jpg

sketch of the 110 - cant tell if this is original baldwin drawing or some later thing.
http://www.1880train.com/images/locomotive110b.jpg

Also looking at those Bachmann photos and video, the wacky motion with the eccentric rod seems to me to be due to the length of the tab on the end of the reverse links (expansion links for our UK friends) to be about half the length it should be, and slightly iin the wrong angle..but she's not 110, or anyhing else like her, but something Baldwin never got round to detailing, so who's to worry.
David.


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

David, 

I was following your explanation, and really enjoying it, but had a question .... 

The review on the Durango Dan site references this: http://www.google.com/books?id=TKV-AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#PPA103,M1 which made a really good read on Walshert's Valve gear .... and its explanation of "outside" and "inside" admission is exactly backwards from yours. (Page 102 and 103) ... so I confess myself a bit confused. 

Also, both the model in the review and in the bachmann Movie that Stan mentions have three cranks one way and one the other .... and he says they may ALL be like this. Is there an example of a prototype locomotive set up this way that you've heard of? If so, what was the reason? 

Matthew (OV)


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Matt, 
I cant open what ever that is you're referring to, but YES Sorry I got it all backwards as soon as you raised it! Mixed up in my head between the two systems - Piston valve addmission is centre, slide valve is side. swap what I just said, bottom line, both systems are opposite, so the eccentrics will be opposite if the radius rods are to set the same way on both chassis'. 

I could easily concieve how an engine like this could have 3 eccentrics facing one way, and only one facing the other, it would entirely depend on which way the cams pivoted relative to the lifting rods...dono why you would, but yes can be done. Its possible....and I'm guessing here, but the actuator for the valve gear is under the engineer's side tank, just in front of the cab. It pushes and pulls the reversing rod down one side of the loco to the lifting rods via some pivoting 'L' shaped cams...you can see them there on the model...when all the cams rock in the same direction with the valve change, then the eccentrics will always face the same way relative to main rod (on an all piston valve loco), but as seen in the photos, when one set of cams rocks down (lowering the radius rod), while the rear set rocks upward , raising the radius rod, then in order for both engine units to run in the same direction, the eccentric on both engine units will be opposite. Now on this crazy 3 matching, 1 different thing, maybe only one side has the cams rocking in opposite directions due to some space constraint where the actualtor takes up space where the cam would otherwise rock...this would mean the radius rod on one side of the loco lowers, while on the opposite side of the same chassis its lifted to the exact same amount, and the eccentric on that both sides would need to face in opposite directions. I cant believe someone would engineer that, but I dont know modern locos that well, who knows...check the photos I guess to see if the radius rods on both side of the loco lowered or lifted the same on all sides or not. 

The one way to really know what should happen with this model, is to look at the connection of the lifting rods to the radius rods on the real engine, and see how that lifting rod is connected to that pivoting 'L' shaped cam. If you can see that the cams can pivot in the exact same way on both chassis, on both sides of the loco, then all the eccentrics should face the same way (forward of the main rod crank). If the cam look like they would pivot in opposite directions on the two chassis relative to each other when the Johnsonbar is moved forward etc, then reverse the eccentrics on one chassis - have the forward chassis with eccentrics facing forward, and the rear chassis eccentrics facing aft, which seems to be visible on several of those WA Mallets I can see. If you can check some photos of the real locos in motion (ie with radius rod out of neutral), you will see the radius rod on the front chassis down, and the radius rod on the rear chassis up...if you could see both sides of the loco from the same period in motion, see if the same condition is on both sides of the loco, then you'll know whether a 3-1 thing was done. 

I'd just set the eccentrics to make sense with the lifting rods on this model and you'll be logical. 

David.


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Chaps, check the video of the preseved 110 at the Black Hiills (on the 20.3 site), all radius rods on both sides facing down in forward and up in reverse. All eccentrics on both sides of the loco lead the main rod crank (eccentrics face forward in all cases). Go with that on your model. Historical photos do indicate locos of this type do have eccentics on the rear chassis facing aft, and radius rods opposing. Here is a photo example:
http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/list/bd9/rayon9meh.jpg
Note how the radius rod on the rear chassis is at top of reverse link, while forward chassis has the radius rod bottom of reverse link. The only way this engine will run in one direction is for the rear chassis eccentric to face aft and the forward chassis eccentric facing forward, which is exactly the case on this loco. The web site has the same loco photographed the year before from the other side, and its identical in its set up. No 3 -1 thing:
http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/list/bd9/wing-rayon9.jpg


Since this model is based on 110 to some amount, I think the 3 eccentrics facing one way and only 1 in the other on the Bachmann model is a mistake, like the K-27s not being consistant in this regard. It shouldn't damage the valve gear out of the box, so long as the eccentric travel of the aft facing eccentric doesn't move a circle of wider travel than the other 3 eccentrics, causing the reverse link to rock too far back and both and cause that bind in TOC's photo.
Set up your eccentrics on the 3rd axle on both chassis like this photo:
http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/list/wt110a/weyer110ameh.jpg
With the all eccentrics facing forward when the cranks are at bottom, thats how the 110 is preserved today.
David.


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks, David. That's what I thought!  

BTW, try this: 

http://www.google.com/books?id=TKV-AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#PPA103 should work better. 

Matthew (OV)


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Perhaps having movement of the eccentrics correct doesn't matter at all. At all.


Just like correct gear ratios don't matter.










At least it seems the Mallet has a decently low gear ratio.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 01/13/2009 6:51 AM


Perhaps having movement of the eccentrics correct doesn't matter at all. At all.


Just like correct gear ratios don't matter.










At least it seems the Mallet has a decently low gear ratio.



..or you could just go the Piko route and cast the valve gear all as one peice, no movement, no problem ...


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm sorry but before I will even _consider _buying one of these (and they _are _pretty lokies!) I want to know what Bachmann is going to do about this eccentric problem as well as the other things listed in the review on 1:20.me! Since I'm r/c, the "Supersocket Version 4.0" or whatever... will just get ripped out to make room for batteries so that's not an issue for me. In case anybody gets the wrong idea, _I like Bachmann products!!!_ I want to see Bachmann succeed and this is NOT the way to do it! One can't make a problem go away by saying that the problem doesn't exist!! Nobody has reviewed the engine the way it needs to be done until 1:20.me! Why is that? Is Bachmann addressing this problem? So far.........


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

There has been no mention on the Bachmann forum of 2-6-6-2 review on the 1:20.3me blog. 
Let alone any comment about the eccentrics.

I wonder why that is?


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 01/14/2009 6:57 PM
There has been no mention on the Bachmann forum of 2-6-6-2 review on the 1:20.3me blog. 
Let alone any comment about the eccentrics.

I wonder why that is? 




could it be that Children aren't privy to posting? 
(mis-quote & double post corrected, SteveC mod.)[/i] 
tongue & Cheek









Like Steve, I too want the Bman to succede....but if they keep turning out problem loco's they will lose their customer base. I'd still love to hear why some are built by more skilled workers?


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

A mark of a good review is that it presents the reader with enough information about the subject being reviewed that the reader can draw his own conclusions about what is being reviewed. That, in a nutshell, is the difference between: 

"To me they appear to be working properly" 

and 

“As delivered, three eccentrics pointed one direction, one pointed the other. Experimentation has shown that as delivered the front engine eccentrics need to be mounted forward of the axle, with rods down. If not, it is easy to have one reverse link “knee over” and lock the valve gear. The results could be disastrous. One set of valve gear on the locomotive reviewed was discovered locked in this manner when it was removed from the box. The rear engine eccentrics needs to be mounted aft of the axle (with rods down), to keep the reverse link from hitting the stops. The valve gear is NOT adjustable, the valve rod does not move in and out of the valve body.” 

One of those statements containes useful, factual, information, that might help me come up with a way to make a $600.00 locomotive out of a $600.00 mistake. If it does, the folks in Philadelphia will have the advisor to the 1:20.me review to thank for the fact that I'm not leading the torch and pitchfork crowd when it comes to Spectrum locomotives. 

As a community, when the facts point in a less than fantastic direction, we need to stop blaming the messenger, and recognize the difference between product review, and product promotion. And for those who feel compelled to "defend" the company or its various personalities, a critical review that recognizes problems is NOT negative. As pointed out above, at least with an identified problem, I can work on a solution, and maybe make something good of it, whereas if the problem is denied or quashed, and questions go deflected, unanswered, spun, or ridiculed, I am dead in the water with no way to fix the problem (which, for all of the shouting, will still exist.) 

Matthew (OV)


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Cale. 

I never said *"could it be that Children aren't privy to posting? "*


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Cale said that. It's the quote problem again... Cale didn't go down far enough to separate the first line of his post from the next, which was double spaced and did make it out of the box. Probably why he tried twice. 

(and no, I'm not being critical of anyone at Mylargescale by explaining this ... I'm trying to offer a solution to a problem. See the diffrence?)


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

If you want to assure that your text in a quoted reply isn't included within the quote box.

Then after the editor screen displays...
[*] Left-click anywhere within the editor content area.
[*] Next use the keyboard key combination {Ctrl+End} which will place the insertion point cursor at the bottom and outside the quote.
[*] Then start typing your reply text.
[/list]


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I know Cale would never say that deliberately. 

Is there some way that computer illiterates like me could "see" where the "quote" box ended so we could type outside of it. 
OR: 
Please tell us where we can read up on how to do what SteveC says without having to ask all the time.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

"Is there some way that computer illiterates like me could "see" where the "quote" box ended so we could type outside of it."

The answer is no.

"Please tell us where we can read up on how to do what SteveC says without having to ask all the time."

Directly following this statement...
[*]After taking any one of the actions in the forum software that causes the Rich-text editor to display. [*]After the editor screen displays, the content area is the place where you've always typed in the text you want to include in your reply. [*]On most computers that support pointing devices, the convention is that these devices are called a mouse, additionally on these pointing devices there are usually two buttons toward the end pointing away from the individual using it. there is one button on the left and another one on the right. So when the term 'left-click' is used, that means that the user is being asked to press and release the mouse button the on the left side. [*]On the keyboard there is a key labeled Ctrl, additionally there is another key labeled End, so when the user is instructed to use the keyboard key combination {Ctrl+End}. What the user is being asked to do is... [*]Depress and hold down the key labeled Ctrl. [*]Then while still holding the key labeled Ctrl down, additionally depress and release the key labeled End. [*]Next release the key labeled Ctrl. [/list] [*]Next the user can start typing the text that they wish to include in their reply. [/list]


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you for the explanation. 
Even I can understand that and have managed to remember it from the first time you told us how to do it in another thread a week or so back. 

What I meant was, where in the site can someone easily find that information? 

Is it at the top of the forum lists in big bold type so you cannot miss it?


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

"What I meant was, where in the site can someone easily find that information?"

The answer is, there isn't.

"Is it at the top of the forum lists in big bold type so you cannot miss it?"

Obviously not, since you've had to ask the question, and I doubt that there ever will be.

Since the functionality of which you speak, is not unique to this or any other web site. It is unique to the respective hardware and/or software utilized by any given individual accessing any given website.

This of course can encompass the whole range of the various main-frame computer hardware and software and the various terminal types connected to them. To the various brands and models within the brands of personal computers and the types and versions of software being used on them. Then there's the various keyboard layouts used for the many different languages found around the world, not to mention more than one hardware keyboard layout (e.g. 'QWERTY' & 'Dvorak' to mention but two.).

So to attempt to answer that type of question would be very inefficient and very likely confusing to many individuals. In the previous case you mentioned, I took a chance and answered Scot's query regarding the current subject at hand, because I was fairly sure of the computer hardware & software that he uses. Then again here in this topic when the same query was raised again, I again took a chance and provided the same answer hoping that it would prove useful. However, if the individual say uses a Mac type computer I don't have the faintest idea if that system has any keys labeled as I described. In your case, again I took the chance and lucked out it seems.

As an allegory, most all motor vehicles have windshield/screen wipers, but the manner that any given manufacturer chooses to implement turning them On & Off, or adjusting there speed varies from brand to brand, not to mention from model to model within a certain brand. Yet you don't find road signs placed along the highways and byways, informing individuals driving specific types of motor vehicles how to turn the wipers on or off, or the fine points of adjusting the speed at which they oscillate back and forth. Why? Because it's expected that it is incumbent on any and every individual that chooses to operate a motor vehicle. To learn the manner in which each of the devices they will need to safely operate the vehicle are controlled in that specific brand/model of vehicle.

As a possible solution for you and or anyone else happening to read this topic and finds that the information to be of help. Then I would suggest that all would create a shortcut/bookmark/Favorites link to this topic in you local browser and label it however you find best to remind yourself what it's for.

Since you chose to describe yourself as a "computer illiterates like me", then maybe a more efficient and less technologically based solution would be to take an appropriately sized piece of paper, copy the above instructions, (which you stated you found easy to follow and understand) to the piece of paper and tape them to the edge of your monitor where they'll be a ready reference for you by simply glancing at the note when needed.


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Thanks Tony and Steve!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm sorry but before I will even consider buying one of these (and they are pretty lokies!) I want to know what Bachmann is going to do about this eccentric problem as well as the other things listed in the review on 1:20.me!


To get back to the topic... I've read several folk's posts on various websites about the loco, and none mentioned a problem with the eccentrics, or anything else for that matter. The reviewer unfortunately didn't finish the job, by ascertaining whether this was a universal problem affecting all engines shipped, or just a glitch on this one engine. 

The readers, like Steve, are left with a bad impression of the manufacturer. I think that's bad for the hobby and bad for all of us - at some point Bachmann will stop trying to build us fabulous new locos [not sure where a mythical 2-6-6-2 fits in there,] or will put up their prices to cover the cost of extra QA. 

If that's the only problem stopping you buy one, then inspect the loco in the store before you buy it.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

..and check every screw with the loc-tite bottle handy. 

I sometimes wonder if the problem isnt bad design, because these products clearly are thought out very well, but the result of a couple just completely clueless workers on the assembly line, add in clueless QA inspectors who wouldnt know the heap of a difference between an eccentric rod and a Johnson lever! Someone familiar with trains would immediatly recognize a wrongly placed eccentric lever, but a barely literate assembly line worker making $5 a day who 3 months prior was pulling onions out of a field in central Mongolia, would have absolutely zero idea what they were assembling or why things should go a certain way, same for the QA people: if it looks like its assembled right, runs back and forth on the test rollers OK, then it must be OK, right? Box it and ship it. We dont find out that our onion picker screwed the pooch until it reaches your doostep.


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

argh


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Unfortunately, that's probably pretty close to the truth! Of course it doesn't help when certain people have an "agenda"....


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 01/15/2009 8:49 AM
..and check every screw with the loc-tite bottle handy. 

I sometimes wonder if the problem isnt bad design, because these products clearly are thought out very well, but the result of a couple just completely clueless workers on the assembly line, add in clueless QA inspectors who wouldnt know the heap of a difference between an eccentric rod and a Johnson lever! Someone familiar with trains would immediatly recognize a wrongly placed eccentric lever, but a barely literate assembly line worker making $5 a day who 3 months prior was pulling onions out of a field in central Mongolia, would have absolutely zero idea what they were assembling or why things should go a certain way, same for the QA people: if it looks like its assembled right, runs back and forth on the test rollers OK, then it must be OK, right? Box it and ship it. We dont find out that our onion picker screwed the pooch until it reaches your doostep. 



That's your second derogatory comment toward the Chinese. I personally find it offensive. China has a 93% literacy rate (as opposed to say Pakistan with a 54% rate.) I doubt seriously whether your average Real Estate Agent, Dental Hygienist, Legal Secretary could tell you "why things go a certain way" and correctly align a valve gear assembly.


This would be a better world if we could all eliminate stereotypical images of the peoples of other cultures.


End of mini-rant.


Mr. Smith if I have offended you with this post I apologize.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By CCSII on 01/15/2009 12:48 PM
Posted By vsmith on 01/15/2009 8:49 AM
..and check every screw with the loc-tite bottle handy. 

I sometimes wonder if the problem isnt bad design, because these products clearly are thought out very well, but the result of a couple just completely clueless workers on the assembly line, add in clueless QA inspectors who wouldnt know the heap of a difference between an eccentric rod and a Johnson lever! Someone familiar with trains would immediatly recognize a wrongly placed eccentric lever, but a barely literate assembly line worker making $5 a day who 3 months prior was pulling onions out of a field in central Mongolia, would have absolutely zero idea what they were assembling or why things should go a certain way, same for the QA people: if it looks like its assembled right, runs back and forth on the test rollers OK, then it must be OK, right? Box it and ship it. We dont find out that our onion picker screwed the pooch until it reaches your doostep. 



That's your second derogatory comment toward the Chinese. I personally find it offensive. China has a 93% literacy rate (as opposed to say Pakistan with a 54% rate.) You might as well call the workers "******." I doubt seriously whether your average Real Estate Agent, Dental Hygienist, Legal Secretary could tell you "why things go a certain way" and correctly align a valve gear assembly.


This would be a better world if we could all eliminate stereotypical images of the peoples of other cultures.


End of mini-rant.


Mr. Smith if I have offended you with this post I apologize. 






No not offended, and *No* I'm not trying to denegrate the Chinese. Just pointing out a simople fact of life in these "New Economies" . The sad thruth is that most of the actuall in-the-trenches-assembly line workers in China are not from the best educated classes in their society, they are often quite literally just fallen off the turnip truck in the Big City looking for any work they can get. Its not like anyone intentionally comes to Quandoung Provence intent on assembling Bachmann locomotives now is it? They just want a job, any job and to them theres no difference between assebling a stereo or assembling a toy locomotive, same thing to them, just give me a steady paycheck. 

Now depending on who they ended up working for, some get some very good training and are well prepared for the work they do, some start with simple tasks and are moved up the assembly line to more diffiicult tasks after they prove they are capable of doing so, but others are often just put on the line and expected to learn by doing. This is particular to companies who have very high outputs and cannot or will not devote the time needed to properly train amployees, they just accept a certain amount of faulty product as being the price of business. I dont how much training Kader assembly line workers get I suspect its more than most, but that doesnt preclude a newer less trained employee assembling something incorrectly, like I said, they simply just DONT realize they've assembled something incorrectly, you've got 4 guys each adding a certain part or assembling a certain group of parts, Bob puts the wheels into the frame, Mel adds the motor assembly, Joe assebles the left side valve gear, and hands it to Bill who assebles the right side valve gear but doesnt realize he's looking at the assembly diagram incorrectly and installs his one eccentric arm backwards but if it looks correct, and the QA people dont realize its incorrect because it still works on their testing bed and it gets shipped, no one is going to notice the mistake until some cigar-chomping guy looks at his sample and says " What the heck?"

Thats what I was trying to convey. No slam against the people but I do have reservations about there manufacturing processes.


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you for clarifying. I agree about their manufacturing process.


Having spent a little time in China I found the people to be open, warm, humorous, inquisitive, and always friendly which is something in a society that lives so close to the knife edge. We saw middle aged women manually laying a rock highway(8" x 8" chunks of granite, hewn from the mountain by hand, carried by hand, and laid by hand) base across a mountain pass. They were at were at work at 8:00 am when we went out and were still at work when we came back after 6:00 pm. Their energy and work ethic could not be faulted. Unfortunately it seems it is the middle management that seems rotten.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 01/15/2009 5:23 AM
"What I meant was, where in the site can someone easily find that information?"

The answer is, there isn't.

"Is it at the top of the forum lists in big bold type so you cannot miss it?"

Obviously not, since you've had to ask the question, and I doubt that there ever will be.

Since the functionality of which you speak, is not unique to this or any other web site. It is unique to the respective hardware and/or software utilized by any given individual accessing any given website.

This of course can encompass the whole range of the various main-frame computer hardware and software and the various terminal types connected to them. To the various brands and models within the brands of personal computers and the types and versions of software being used on them. Then there's the various keyboard layouts used for the many different languages found around the world, not to mention more than one hardware keyboard layout (e.g. 'QWERTY' & 'Dvorak' to mention but two.).

So to attempt to answer that type of question would be very inefficient and very likely confusing to many individuals. In the previous case you mentioned, I took a chance and answered Scot's query regarding the current subject at hand, because I was fairly sure of the computer hardware & software that he uses. Then again here in this topic when the same query was raised again, I again took a chance and provided the same answer hoping that it would prove useful. However, if the individual say uses a Mac type computer I don't have the faintest idea if that system has any keys labeled as I described. In your case, again I took the chance and lucked out it seems.

As an allegory, most all motor vehicles have windshield/screen wipers, but the manner that any given manufacturer chooses to implement turning them On & Off, or adjusting there speed varies from brand to brand, not to mention from model to model within a certain brand. Yet you don't find road signs placed along the highways and byways, informing individuals driving specific types of motor vehicles how to turn the wipers on or off, or the fine points of adjusting the speed at which they oscillate back and forth. Why? Because it's expected that it is incumbent on any and every individual that chooses to operate a motor vehicle. To learn the manner in which each of the devices they will need to safely operate the vehicle are controlled in that specific brand/model of vehicle.

As a possible solution for you and or anyone else happening to read this topic and finds that the information to be of help. Then I would suggest that all would create a shortcut/bookmark/Favorites link to this topic in you local browser and label it however you find best to remind yourself what it's for.

Since you chose to describe yourself as a "computer illiterates like me", then maybe a more efficient and less technologically based solution would be to take an appropriately sized piece of paper, copy the above instructions, (which you stated you found easy to follow and understand) to the piece of paper and tape them to the edge of your monitor where they'll be a ready reference for you by simply glancing at the note when needed.



Steve.
Thank you for such a detailed, if somewhat condescending, answer.
As I said. Thanks to you I now know how to do it.

My query was meant to be a suggestion that advice be given in plain view to those that do not know how to do it.
Computers can be daunting things for many people.
For those that find them easy to manipulate, many of us hold your abilities in awe.
I imagine for a man of your skills it would be quite simple to add something very obvious to the top of the forums saying, for example, "READ HERE BEFORE POSTING REPLIES WITH QUOTES". This would contain advice that laymen could understand. Especially those that have to use an easy way as most people cannot understand HTML code because they do not use it all the time.
Surely that couldn't be too difficult?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

A well-meant idea I'm sure, but experience has shown that, as a general rule, people don't read stuff like that. "The Rules" were posted at the top of the "Beginners Forum" before the changeover. Seemed like a logical place since one would think that would be the first forum hit by a new member, and it contained the sig guidelines, a link to how to post photos, etc. People still asked the same questions about how to post photos, initially used oversized sigs, etc. 

After the changeover, something similar was instead placed at the top of the "Public Forum" - same issues. 

FAQs existed on how to post photos on the new site (until the new RTE came along, when it was removed as no longer applicable). Many would still ask how to post photos. 

Consequently, I can only conclude that people (or at least, many people) don't read stuff like that.  It seems more effective to simply answer such questions as they come up.


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 01/15/2009 8:00 AM
I'm sorry but before I will even consider buying one of these (and they are pretty lokies!) I want to know what Bachmann is going to do about this eccentric problem as well as the other things listed in the review on 1:20.me!


To get back to the topic... I've read several folk's posts on various websites about the loco, and none mentioned a problem with the eccentrics, or anything else for that matter. The reviewer unfortunately didn't finish the job, by ascertaining whether this was a universal problem affecting all engines shipped, or just a glitch on this one engine. 

The readers, like Steve, are left with a bad impression of the manufacturer. I think that's bad for the hobby and bad for all of us - at some point Bachmann will stop trying to build us fabulous new locos [not sure where a mythical 2-6-6-2 fits in there,] or will put up their prices to cover the cost of extra QA. 

If that's the only problem stopping you buy one, then inspect the loco in the store before you buy it. 





Hey Pete, 

I did glance over the Bmann Fora a min ago and did see some problems addressed and work on those issues...

Sierra Sound in 2-6-6-2 
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7723.0.html

Phil Stump, is working on sound fix...pretty interesting discussion for those non-dcc sound users.

and Phil again on the drive train problem as mentioned in review:

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7942.0.html

then Andre did post the review, almost in it's entirety asking the Bman to respond:
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7940.0.html

there is another sound/QSI question posed as well...with no answer:
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7940.0.html

Another wiring issue:
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7932.0.html

Finally from "Across the pond" :
http://www.gscalemad.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=2614



Those first 5 are just from the Large start page on the Bmann forums, as to it being a universal problem...well only time will tell, but one really can't discount a review of a product just because only one subject was reviewed...I doubt any reviewer ever gets more than one unit to test?...heck even the video as provided by Bmann shows the problem (again as mentioned in the 1:20.me Blog review) 


as a consumer with a very LTD budget, I want to know all I can about a prospective purchase..and if one gets a "bad impression" then decides to hold off on the purchase or not buy at all it may in the end save *them* some dough/headache/both? 


An informed consumer is a powerful individual!

I look forward to the 2nd installment of the review as promised by Dan at the blog site.

cale


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

oh, and I still can't post photo here anymore, but I did get the quote thing right this time! 

cale


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By c nelson on 01/15/2009 3:08 PM
oh, and I still can't post photo here anymore, but I did get the quote thing right this time! 

cale


Posting photos is done exactly the same way it was done on the old site...

*[*img]URLofPhoto[*/img]* without the asterisks.


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## mancosbob (Jan 5, 2009)

You know, I've only been here about a week or so, and have had a good time looking for info, and not always finding it easily, but sooner or later it pops up. I have noticed a lot of threads getting...well...testy, and then going downhill from there; sort of like coming home to my first wife again.

I'm not complaining, I find it pretty funny actually; as I assume its all done tongue in cheek (I won't say which ones). Oh, and another really cool thing about the Chinese people I have had the pleasure to know, they are always open on holidays!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By CCSII on 01/15/2009 2:24 PM
Thank you for clarifying. I agree about their manufacturing process.


Having spent a little time in China I found the people to be open, warm, humorous, inquisitive, and always friendly which is something in a society that lives so close to the knife edge. We saw middle aged women manually laying a rock highway(8" x 8" chunks of granite, hewn from the mountain by hand, carried by hand, and laid by hand) base across a mountain pass. They were at were at work at 8:00 am when we went out and were still at work when we came back after 6:00 pm. Their energy and work ethic could not be faulted. Unfortunately it seems it is the middle management that seems rotten.



My personal opinion is that it is the Political ethic (Communism) that is "rotten". Blended with the particular "feudalism" of their history (not much different than European feudalism) and, for any level of management, it becomes, "I'll get rich off of you while you work for the state." 

Which is not all that much different than "Capitalism", except in the U.S. the background is "every man for himself first and his neighbor second especially when it looks like it might be in one's own self-interest". i.e.: The "State" exists for the individual's self-interest, instead of the other way round.


I have often wondered what the long term effect will be on a society that has a (comparatively) "low" standard of living after they have been hired (at low wages) to assemble what must seem an awful extravagance based on their standard of living. I think we all, as a species, tend to think only in terms of our local experience. We tend to see ourselves as "average" and our community as "average" and not really consider the world as a whole. We do not see very much farther than our own community.

So "they" see what "Americans" buy (the junk they have assembled) and have trouble understanding how this "other" society can live if they spend their wages on such trinkets. Surely these Americans must all be terribly rich to be able to afford these few thousand or so toy trains they just built. Remember, they may have come from a town of just a few thousand and what they built could supply one for each person in that town. From their experience, they just supplied the entire population of the U.S. with one each of this trinket. In their community, maybe only one or two people could afford to have one, so they marvel at everybody in the U.S. being able to afford one.

Of course, people in the U.S. come from all sorts of "standards of living", some of which would be considered below the average one in any other country, and not everybody can afford such extravagances as toy trains in the garden (and not everyone is even smart enough to want one!).

But their understanding of "our" society is not much different that our understanding of "their's". We tend to think of them based on the stories of children being drug out of the rice paddy to work in a sweat shop for 18 hours per day for just a cup of gruel to be shared amongst their extended family. That may be true, or partially true, or used to be true, or true in some particular place or some particular company, or it may be totally untrue, but it is the understanding of some and forms the opinions of others.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Chinese communism is like a double stuffed Oreo cookie, a soft cushie rich and decadent filling surrounded by the thin veneer of a hard coarse impenitrable outer shell that disguises the true nature of those on the interior of the power structure. 

Now back to our originally shceduled program...


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

if it looks like its assembled right, runs back and forth on the test rollers OK, 


I picked up my (much more expensive) EBT Mikado from Rich Yoder last week, and he made an emphatic point of showing me the slight wear on the pilot wheels, caused by his demanding running-in at the factory, and not, he insisted, for just 5 minutes. He's had experience. 

Would mis-aligned eccentrics (or loose counterweights for that matter,) show up in 5 minutes?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The eccentrics basically cannot slip, if you get the loco with them in the wrong place, they were assembled wrong at the factory. 

Loose screws have been reported enough by the small number of people that have these that it's no longer a point of contention in my mind, something is wrong in the assembly process at the factory, left loose, not fully tightened, whatever, the bottom line is that whether they are loose in the box, or after 5 minutes, something is wrong. 

I've never had an Aristo steamer with loose screws on the valve gear, and I've never heard of any problems out of the box. Sure, after hours of running people have had loose screws. 

So, tighten them at the factory. 

But this is all really academic, since the proof is there. 

I'm concerned about the valve gear operation and want to see pictures that demonstrate the "interference" problem, as I will call it. 

That problem could be a big one if some of the things I have heard through the grapevine are true. 

Until then, ..... 

Regards, Greg


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

I look forward to more factual reporting on this locomotove, especially from anyone that is running it now. While I think I understand the eccentric issues and am are still waiting for some clarification on whether a fix is required should you have the binding problem shown on 1:20.me. I'm looking at the engine as the basis for bashing into a tendered logging mallet version...versus the tank version.

It's the rear drawbar that has drawn my interest. If you look at the following photo, you'll note the drawbar is designed to extend rearward as the cab swings due to curves. 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jl-RFo6VUnk/SWmIZsDvqZI/AAAAAAAABdY/POf_nosAxyU/s400/DSCN4251.JPG

That is why the lead end is forked...and it is the rearmost step in the drawbar that bears agains the engine that provides the pulling power. 

My question has to do with this arrangement. I'd like to know how well this drawbar design performs when pulling cars. Does it bind at all...for if it does, it's sure to derail a drawbar connected tender...or put it on it's side. I concerned about the drawbar binding under load as it moves left to right (or right to left) when the engine enters a curve. As I have 8' diameter curves in my layout design...and one is on a 5' tall trestle. It's important to understand how well trailing cars would track on an 8' diameter curve. Can anyone provide info here?

As a sidenote, this is one reason why the Meyer design lost out against the Mallet and Garrett design....excessive cab swing. There is substantially more lateral acceleration in the cab (compared to Mallets) when the Meyer designed engines went through switches or entered sharp curves. All steamers have lurch...but the Meyer design had LURCH!!!. And, there were the additional HUGE issues regarding the steam line joints to two motor systems...as on the Mallet there was only one flexible joint for the front engine and none for the rear engine.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It always scares me when someone does his homework! 

Good points Mike! 

Greg


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## Crosshead (Feb 20, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01/16/2009 11:32 AM
It always scares me when someone does his homework! 

Good points Mike! 

Greg


Looks to me like that might also be true of Bachmann. Cale's link to Andre's posting of the second half of the Durango Dan article ( http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7940.0.html ) is no longer any good, yielding only the following message:

Warning! The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.

Nothing to see here folks. 

Richard C.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

The phrase *DAMAGE CONTROL* comes to mind. 

I wonder if there will be any more reviews of the Mallet at the 1:20.3me blog?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By CCSII on 01/15/2009 2:24 PM
Thank you for clarifying. I agree about their manufacturing process.


Having spent a little time in China I found the people to be open, warm, humorous, inquisitive, and always friendly which is something in a society that lives so close to the knife edge. We saw middle aged women manually laying a rock highway(8" x 8" chunks of granite, hewn from the mountain by hand, carried by hand, and laid by hand) base across a mountain pass. They were at were at work at 8:00 am when we went out and were still at work when we came back after 6:00 pm. Their energy and work ethic could not be faulted. Unfortunately it seems it is the middle management that seems rotten.


Yes! Nicely put. It's common for people to bash Chinese manufacturing as if there is something wrong with Chinese people. That's not what Vic was doing, but I appreciate you saying this. We had the same experience in China and I have a chinese made double bass that's a marvel of worksmanship and design. Thanks for posting that


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

With respect to Bachmann yanking that particular post, in all fairness to Bachmann, it could also be do to what in their eyes constitutes copyright infringement. Note Cale's post... 

then Andre did *post the review, almost in it's entirety* asking the Bman to respond: 
_Bold mine_

Andre' would probably have done better to quote a few sections and post a link to the entire review. Copyright infringement could also be just an excuse for yanking the post, but the "fair use" clause has severe restrictions on it now with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and lawsuits over copyright infringement are very much a reality now. And we all know there's no love lost between Bachmann and 1:20.me. hehehe


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 01/17/2009 7:28 AM
With respect to Bachmann yanking that particular post, in all fairness to Bachmann, it could also be do to what in their eyes constitutes copyright infringement. Note Cale's post... 

then Andre did *post the review, almost in it's entirety* asking the Bman to respond: 
_Bold mine_

Andre' would probably have done better to quote a few sections and post a link to the entire review. Copyright infringement could also be just an excuse for yanking the post, but the "fair use" clause has severe restrictions on it now with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and lawsuits over copyright infringement are very much a reality now. And we all know there's no love lost between Bachmann and 1:20.me. hehehe




Good Eye Dwight! I was wondering if anyone caught that? Yes; a link or smaller bits and pieces or even mentions of speculated issues could have been posted...probably ignored, but posted none the less.

cale


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## lkydvl (Jan 2, 2008)

As to copyright, my thought was that since I was also noting where the material came from, it would not be an issue. 

I knew I was dancing on thin ice posting the review there. However it seems neither Bachmann nor AristoCraft will acknowledge product issues when they are discovered. I wasn't raised that way, never ran my business that way and expect others to do the same. Even if it was only up for a short time, a bunch of folks found much needed information on which to base a purchase decisison. If Bachmann can't stand the heat so be it! It takes a better man to admit his mistakes than to cover up an error. 

I guess we know where they both are at. 

Andre`


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Posted By lkydvl on 01/17/2009 8:47 AM
As to copyright, my thought was that since I was also noting where the material came from, it would not be an issue. 



Andre` 





Yeah me too, another reason I used the above quoted and bold text..oh well! We'll give you cool points for trying!









cale


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

I was told legally if something appears on the internet it is fair game for anybody to re-post it or use it???????????? I had my pics used after the fact ! owner had permission prior to ex-communicating me from his website, and used pic after being e-communicated! Kinda tacky huh? And we all know who this website is and the person doing the ex-communication, as a whole bunch of us have had the pleasure of his swift ex-communicating axe!!! Hee hee LOL The Regal 

Hint famous cleaning agent in his name for those who are the NEWBIEST! hee hee


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 01/17/2009 9:15 AM
I was told legally if something appears on the internet it is fair game for anybody to re-post it or use it????????????I had my pics used after the fact owner had permission prior to ex-communicating me from his website, and used pic after being e-communicated! Kinda tacky huh? And we all know who this website is and the person doing the ex-communication, as a whole bunch of us have had the pleasure of his swift e-communicating axe!!! Hee hee LOL The Regal 

Hint famous cleaning agent in his name for those who are the NEWBIEST! hee hee




easy, you left the "S" out of your laugh


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By c nelson on 01/17/2009 9:18 AM
Posted By blueregal on 01/17/2009 9:15 AM





easy, you left the "S" out of your laugh
Heh pretty good observation!!!! You know the guy we all "love to hate" so to speak!!! The Regal "Yeah that's the ticket"


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Not to disagree but I'd still be pretty careful what I post. Just because it's on the internet doesn't give one _carte blanch_ to use it! There's usually fine print somewhere that states that by posting on said site the poster gives up rights to the posting. If I use someone's picture in a post I always give credit to the photographer (and try to get their permission to post it.) Dealing with a business like Kader Industries is like walking through a minefield....you do so at your own peril and never know if and when something could blow up in your face! (Been there, done that!)


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I was told legally if something appears on the internet it is fair game for anybody to re-post it or use it???????????? 
Not true. Here's a court ruling from 2000[/b][/b]. Search Google for *copyright internet content* and you'll find all kinds of stuff.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

It's sure hard to keep this thread on the topic of the Mallet.....


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Der ya go Mikey! Go get em!!!! The Regal


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 01/17/2009 10:32 AM
It's sure hard to keep this thread on the topic of the Mallet.....




gotcha Mike, I was looking over your previous post...seems after reading that, it may be hard to keep trailing cars on the track behind the Meyer/Mallet/Artty...guess we can all just anticipate the next installment of the review?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

It's sure hard to keep this thread on the topic of the Mallet.....
My post was directly related to the Mallet and pertains to why Bachmann may have chosen not to respond to the review, or leave it posted, on their site.  I am not, however, defending their position, nor their propensity to ignore problems.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight and I met at the Train Shop in Santa Clara yesterday to do a bit of buying and snooping on the Mallet. They had four of the Mallets in stock on display shelves and the shop owner said he had test run all four and they ran very smoothly (there's a benefit of buying from your LHS). They were priced at $649...which is a good price from what I've seen. Some observations:

[*]On all four engines the eccentrics matched on the firemens side as far as rotational placement during assembly. [*]The eccentrics were installed such that they lagged the driver...opposite what the "consultant" on 1.20pointme had said was correct. Since this engine was never fabricated in real life, "correct" may be tough to establish. [*]We took one engine out of the display case, and the engineer's side matched the firemen's side...all eccentrics were installed in the lag position. [*]With it out of the display case, we were able to "unscientifically" test (mess with) the rear coupler arrangement that I have some concerns about. [*]It does indeed slide fore/aft as you move it to the side and apply load. [*]The springs that are on the coupler ONLY center it when there is no or very little load on the coupler shaft. [*]The last step on the coupler shaft IS the load bearing surface as I had surmised from looking at the photographs on 120pointme. [*]That coupler shaft bears agains a metal plate that spans the width of the cab. [*]Under load, when moving the coupler left of right, you can feel some small amount of sidewards resistance. It's a small amount and I doubt (there's a scientific term) that it is sufficient to cause a tender/follow car derailment. [*]Lubricating that rear metal plate would probably reduce the resistance to sideways motion...BUT [*]The lube will provide a place for dirt to collect while running as this area is very exposed [*]The centering spring area also is a place where dirt will collect...and that assembly has a small plate that runs in a channel with springs on each side...so some kind of lube is going to be needed anyway. [/list] [/list] [*]The cab swing is significant. We didn't ever put the engine on track while at the store, but we did position the motors as if it was on a curve...and IMHO, the center rear of the cab does extend beyond the outer rail in my estimation...so this weird coupler set up is vital. [*]Folks with tunnel portals on curves...and at the BEGINNING of a curve want to be careful here...more clearance might be required than usual. [*]Lastly....our most interesting find...the eccentrics on two K27s. There were two K27s...on shelves...one above the other. [/list] http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/mikereilley/Chat/K27%20lag.jpg

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/mikereilley/Chat/K27%20lead.jpg


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Locomotives with piston valves typically have the eccentrics positioned as in the first of your two K-27 links (the one on top) above. 

The link on the bottom shows the other choice, which you'd see with slide valves. 

On the Mallet, since it has piston valves, you'd expect the eccentrics to match the top photo.... all four of them. 

Now, as David Fletcher pointed out, there are exceptions to this rule ... most involving the positioning of the gear that makes the sliding part of the link block move up and down. But the Mallet, at least as the model is built, is not one of those exceptions, since it matches the construction of Weyerhauser #110 very closely (and the 1:20.me review illustrates that.... so I'm referring to that as a source here.... just in case folks still want to argue about copyright!) 

The point is, when the link block is moved down, the eccentric moves in synch with the radius rod, and the locomotive moves forward. When the link block is raised, the link acts as a rocker arm, and reverses the action of the eccentric rod, causing the radius rod to move exactly opposite from the eccentric rod, and the locomotive moves in reverse. If your eccentric rods are backwards, it'll all still work, except that you'll have to move the reversing lever backwards to go forwards and vice versa. If everything else matches, and you have one leading and one trailing, one part of your locomotive will be trying to move forward, and the other will be trying to move backward.... which doesn't work on a locomotive that actually uses its pistons and valve gear to generate power and motion.

Does it matter in an electric model locomotive? Probably not. There are Aristocraft locomotives from a while back that everyone loves a lot that have all that hardware cast in plastic. Old Lionel stuff often doesn't even have all the pieces... and they've been favorites of people for a long time. But, if I'm going to spend a lot of money on a finely detailed model, I'd like it to be right. Notice that with the K-27 above, one of those is right, and the other ... is not. Which would you select, given the choice? 

Now ... there is a separate issue involving the binding of valve gear components based on their position. As far as I know, there has not been any published information on what the source of the problem is, or how to best go about addressing it, but there have been pictures posted of valve gear on the Mallet that is, to say the least, "out of whack." I have not heard of any such issue on the K-27, beyond needing to have the eccentrics reversed, which mine have been. So I'll be watching to see when my Mallet arrives, because I want it to run well, and because, well, it matters to me that the valve gear is arranged correctly. 

To those to whom it does not matter ... good health, and happy running. 

Matthew (OV)


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 01/18/2009 10:21 AM
... snip
[*]The eccentrics were installed such that they lagged the driver...opposite what the "consultant" on 1.20pointme had said was correct. Since this engine was never fabricated in real life, "correct" may be tough to establish. [*]... [/list] 


Actually "Correct" is relatively easy to establish. 

Look at the Steam Chests of the engine in question. If it is squarish (flat top and sides) then it is probably a Slide Valve, if it is round (tubular), then it is probably a Piston Valve. 

Slide Valves are Outside admission and Piston Valves are usually Inside admission. 

With Outside admission the Eccentric Leads the Crank Pin, and with Inside admission the Eccentric Lags the Crank Pin. 

THUS, if you look at an engine, if the Steam Chest is squarish then it is probably a Slide Valve with Outside admission and the Eccentric should Lead the crank pin 

If the Steam Chest is round then it is probably a Piston Valve with Inside admission and the Eccentric should Lag the Crank Pin.


Mallets (or Malleys, as they were sometimes called, which is closer to the French pronunciation of the French inventor's name) are by definition two engine Compound locomotives where one engine (usually the rear engine afixed solidly to the frame) is High pressure, and the second one (the one that is hinged to the frame and is free to swing side to side to follow the curve of the track) is Low pressure (working of of the exhaust of the first engine). 

THUS, with a Mallet, the rear engine's Eccentric should Lag the Crank Pin and the front engine's Eccentric should Lead the Crank Pin.

Round Steam Chest = Lags
Square Steam Chest = Leads

EASY!


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Uh, Semper.... I was with you right up to the end there. 

On many Mallets, the front, low pressure engine had slide valves (with the squarish valve chests you describe) while the rear high pressure cylinders had piston valves. On those locomotives, what you outline above is exactly right. 

On later models, though, all four cylinders were equipped with piston valves, both the large low pressure cylinders up front, and the smaller high pressure cylinders in the rear. On these engines, all four cranks would "Lag" or follow the eccentric, as they're all valves of the same type. 

The Bachmann 2-6-6-2 has piston valves on all four cylinders.

(and, for sake of completeness, in a locomotive with four sets of slide valves, all four cranks would "lead.") 

Matthew (OV)


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Now ... there is a separate issue involving the binding of valve gear components based on their position.
I asked Dennis about that (Dennis Cole owns the Train Shop, and prior that worked there for his father Vern, the former owner along with Charlie Gibbs - most of those decades Dennis spent servicing and repairing locos of all scales). He is the guy who test ran them (all four of them), and he noticed no binding nor clicking during the test runs. So it may have been a fluke that the loco reviewed had the issue, or it may be more widespread, but on these four locos, it wasn't a problem.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You (Matthew) are right, That is why I said to "look" at the engine to determine what kind of valve chest is on it.

Some Compound engines had the high and low pressure engines in the opposite positions.


I also used the words "probably" and "usually" because some engine designers didn't follow convention! That was rare, but did happen. Some tried Inside admission Slide Valves and some had Outside admission Piston Valves. The drawbacks to these situations were soon learned and the practice settled on what you find in "most" locomotives/engines.

Some engines were field modified, especially when the Piston Valve was invented, many Slide Valve engines were converted to Piston Valves with a sort of "retrofit kit" so they still had squarish steam chests, but internally they were Piston Valves. Some still had Outside admission and so followed the "rule", but others were switched to Inside admission and that cornfuzes the "rules".

Visual examination sometimes fails the "rule". This then leads to the only difficulty in determining what "should" be, especially if the model has no prototype... make up yer own story as to what is in the Steam Chests and stick to it! "Hey, this loco was an experimental one built for the Hawaii to Taiwan RR and had Slide Valves on one side and a combination of Poppet and Magic Valves on the other."


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

I feel stupid asking this, but . . . . 

I have been trying tofollow this thread because I would like to have one of these engines someday but I don't understand somethings. 

Are eccentrics and counterweights the same thing? 

I have looked at the two links by Mike Reilly and I cannot see any difference. 

So, maybe there should be a forum that deals with the basic terminology and construction of a steam engine. 

All I know is I love to see them and watch them and smell the smoke and grease. 

How they operate is a total mystery to me. 

So if you don't mind, could someone take the time to describe exactly what it is we are talking about so an idiiot like me can understand it? 

Thanks, 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Counterweights are the "half moon" part of a driver, the filled in part. 

Eccentrics are the small "arms" or "cranks" that power the valve gear. 

Regards, Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

An "Eccentric" is something that is "off center" (an apt description of some old people!) so both the Counterweights and what is named as the Eccentric are "eccentrics". 

But the Counterweights are specifically off center to counterballance the weight of the side and main rods on the locomotive (Side rods connect from one wheel to the next and the Main rod connects from the power piston, at the Crosshead to one of the drive wheels).

The part named the Eccentric depends on the type of valve gear that is on the engine. 

Stephenson's valve gear (and some others) has a round wheel or pulley shaped part with an off-center hole (hence the name "Eccentric") that makes it wobble about the axis of rotation (the axle). 

Walschearts valve gear (and some others) use an arm attached to the main pin of the drive wheel (where the main rod connects) so that the other end of the arm moves in a similar manner to the Stephensons wheel on the axle. 

The idea of both is to produce a linear motion (pushing and pulling the valve) from a rotational motion (the wheels turning)... 

The Eccentric Rod, which is attached to that outer end of the Eccentric arm (or rides on the Stephenson's Eccentric wheel on the axle) is what communicates that linear motion to the valve gear to push and pull the valve rod to make the valve open and close the steam and exhaust ports on the power cylinder at the correct times.

The drawing below names several of these parts on a Walshearts valve gear.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

ACK! Wrong drawing... try it again...


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Not to confuse you even further John, bit it bears mentioning. The Bachmann Mallet is an inside frame locomotive, so what Greg and Semper said regarding it is true. However, on outside frame locomotives, like the K-27 for example, the counterweights are not "the "half moon" part of a driver, the filled in part." The drivers on such a loco are inside the frame, but the counterweights are on the outside connected to the axle ends. I only bring this up here because discussions of Bachmann's previous loco, the K-27, revolved around "loose counterweights."


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

BTW - Jules T. Anatole Mallet (23 May 1837 â€" 10 October 1919) was a SWISS mechanical engineer, NOT a French one. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

True, the counterweights can be cast as part of the wheel or a solid metal blocks bolted to the spokes, some are weights fitted into a box bolted to the spokes, or as in the case of some outside frame locomotives they are completely separate parts mounted on the axle just like the wheel is, but farther toward the end of the axle.

What I never understood about the "Loose counterweights" issue was "how" they were loose? Too big of a hole to fit the axle? no setscrew or any method to make them rigid? What was wrong? What was the "fix"?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 01/18/2009 5:13 PM
BTW - Jules T. Anatole Mallet (23 May 1837 – 10 October 1919) was a SWISS mechanical engineer, NOT a French one. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 


OH DEAR! Now I've done gone and insulted BOTH the Swiss and the French!


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlSp94dTwNU

Not the greatest, but it works. (Certainly better than anything I could make)

Matthew (OV)


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## thekollector (Jan 2, 2008)

a FRENCH speaking SWISS mechanical engineer!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, I did a little googling and he was Swiss, but worked for the French Railways.


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks,

Now I know the difference between a counterweight and an eccentric.

I will go back and look at the pictures and try to understand what is happening.

John


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