# Finis to an era: TOC's out!



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I didn't want to start this thread. Some are going to see it as "inflamatory" and perhaps it is but it needs to be said here. Dave Goodson (aka Curmudgeon) as many of you know, has been a member of MLS since the beginning. TOC ("The Old Curmudgeon") has also been the principal reviewer of technical matters for Outdoor Railroader/Finescale Railroader Magazine and later Garden Railways Magazine which he still does for Marc Horovitz. 

The problems began before this but have reached a breaking point with Dave's review of the Bachmann K-27 in Garden Railways. The review was rather mild (mainly due to editorial license) but in no way hyper critical or unfair! In fact, Dave took some flak for his "kid gloves" handling of the K-27 review! 

Bachmann, aparently, was not pleased. Not pleased at all! Doug Blaine, VP of Marketing for Bachmann was incensed about the review! He wanted Dave removed as a reviewer for Bachmann's products and he felt that Dave was biased against the "Universal Socket" that they had spent so much time, money and energy in developing(!) and thus couldn't give a fair review. Doug was especially upset about Dave's lack of positive reference to the Socket in the review. 

This was all two days ago. Dave has been told NOT to "harrass" anyone at Bachmann. He is essentially "persona non grata. None of this information is classified. There's a heluva lot more but essentially Bachmann is trying to dictate who does their reviews so they get the most favorable person possible. The problem with this is that GR uses Dave _because_ of his technical expertise, his attention to detail, his honesty and his utter objectivity! Dave has done this for 11 years. There are those of us that WON'T purchase a product until we have had Dave do a thorough evaluation of the model! 

In addition to reviews, Dave also does evaluations of the models to find potential (and real) flaws and to devise "fixes" for them (the shim kit for the original Shay is a good example) and then reports to Bachmann about his findings so Bachmann can correct them. He isn't on Bachmann's payroll! He does this for the good of the hobby which is why Bachmann's attitude toward Dave is so unfathomable! 

It is speculation at this point but the focal point seems to be Dave's resistance to DCC in large scale and the "Super Socket" in particular in a number of threads here on MLS and LSC. SOMEBODY has convinced Bachmann that Dave Goodson won't work with them and so Dave has been "excommunicated." Dave has decided that this fight is unwinnable and not worth the headaches and frustrations and I don't blame him! He has decided NOT to do any more reviews of Bachmann products so SOMEBODY has won! I hope he's happy because these strong-arm tactics have removed one of the best reviewers our hobby has ever had. 

I have kept this post as impersonal as I could. I am _bitterly_ disappointed with Bachmann and am disgusted at the politics that have brought this decision about. There is a LOT more to this but you will have to get it from somebody else. I will not be buying any more Bachmann engines based on their "rosey reviews" which will surely be dictated by their marketing department! Rather, I will now wait until at least a year has passed and watch the fallout from the inevitable problems that will creep up and then decide whether to purchase one or not. This is not a good day for our hobby.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

No surprises here...


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave's expertise and quality of review not to mention solutions will be sorely missed when it comes to Bachmann's products.... /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif Really sad to hear.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I could see if he'd slammed the new product, but that's nearly a glowing review.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I am not surprised, but IT IS a very sad day for this hobby./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

On the upside,if his all his ties are cut then he can feel free on the forums to express his thoughts in any way he pleases. Could be very interesting reading.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Wasn't TOC finding fixes and doing reviews long before GR started having him do their reviews? And why would it matter that Bachmann doesn't like him doing their review? As far as I can see, Bachmann takes out only one color ad in the magazine, so that doesn't seem to be the 'major' advertising dollar. 

And Bachmann should have recognized that the Ames Super Socket (as it is technically known) is not the end all be all, or did I read the posts wrong? Why make a socket when all people really wanted were screw terminals to hook in their choice of power, control and sound? How hard was that? Why spend extra money in development when simplicity is preferred? 

Frankly, the review I read was glowing, and the VP at Bachmann should read his own message board to get a better feel for how the buying public has recieved his product. 

Still, I don't see that TOC will stop figuring out fixes for stuff. Maybe folks will just find out about problems and solutions faster, since he won't have to wait for Bachmann to post official fixes. 

Mark


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Also not surprised, been reading the hoopla on LCS, I can't beleive how short sighted the Suits at B'mann are being, but having read Dave's reviews for a long time now, it seams like _ every_ time he looks at their product, finds issues, makes fixes or suggestions, _ someone_ at the big B gets there nose out of joint about it. 

It goes to show how evil a sin Hubris is especially at the corporate level. Dave DIDNT BUILD THE DARN THING, he's just looking at the darn thing with a mind to way any of wound use it in daily basis. If he finds engineering shortcomings, that not his fault, if he finds obvious things that need repair (like loose counterbalances), thats not his fault either. But killing the messenger seams to be corporate standard operating proceedures these days. Kinda like Ford claiming Pinto drivers were the cause of all the problems for getting into accidents in the first place, their car had "no problem" when it left the factory. 

As for the future, I really dont see much change other than Klambake finding someone else to do the reviews, I actually feel bad for whoever gets that job as they will start under a shadow of doubt. But I figure Dave will just keep on doing what he does, afterall it wasnt Bachmann or Klambake who sent the autopsy K-27 used in Daves reveiw, it was a customer, and Bachmann has ZERO control over what happens to there product once its sold. So I would expect to see Dave's exhaustive evaluations just move to the internet, where no candy coating is necessary just to please the corporate suits. The difference may be us having to make our own repairs or fix kits if the manufacturer refuses to accept the review as legitimate, they risk alot of bad blood if theres an obvious widespread problem and no fix from the factory, this is why I think they are being short sighted. 

As for Bachmann, they obviously have no idea what kind of backlash they may have unwittingly unleashed. How it effects future large scale releases is anyones guess, and if Bachmann continues to insist on using their customers as the Beta testing platform, they had better not be surprised when the first run sales sag because no one wants to buy one without knowing what they are getting for their money. 

Lets face it, $100 for an Annie is one thing, $700 for a K is something else entirely, for $700 I expect, no I DEMAND, that it run perfectly out of the box, otherwise forget it!


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## SandyR (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm flabbergasted. TOC is such an asset to our hobby, and I didn't think that the review was negative. And who is Bachmann to dictate what people say about them? This is a country with the right to free speech and opinions. My own opinion of Bachmann products goes back to the first side-tank Porter that I bought from them. It had rough-surfaced drivers, which needed cleaning after only 15 minutes of running outdoors. And after only a few hours of running, its driving gear split. I never bought another Bachmann product, based on that one experience. Let Bachmann tell me not to mention that!!! 
SandyR


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I gave up on the Bachman forum years ago. I think it was TOC himself that got me to come here? I visit a few other sites but this is the main source of info for me. I do subscribe to GR and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. However My current roster of Bachman products are limited and do not include any of the "problem children" products of the recent past. Their products are not my main focus in my future railroad so it's not an issue really to me. Since TOC is on the west coast IF I were to buy RCS products and paid to have them installed it wouldn't likely be from him anyway. I ahve come to respect his opinion on products though. Not always happy about HOW he shooses to communicate but that how he is and how I am and I still respect him in the morning (or any other time of day for that matter). 

Reviews are reviews, good, bad, or other wise. I appreciate the folks that go to great lengths to try to tell me what it's like and spend hours if not days tearing things apart and testing things so I don't have to. Once I buy a product it'll get that treatment from me anyway and most often a review simply tells me what to look for once I have purchased the product adn is not a deciding factor on whether to buy it or not. My purchases of NEW equipment are rarely spur of the moment and require massive amounts of budgetting on my part. So getting a new loco as soon as it comes out is likely a VERY remote thing for me anyway. 

Overall as someone with very little invested I find it very sad. 

Chas


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Paul Burch on 04/03/2008 8:22 AM
On the upside,if his all his ties are cut then he can feel free on the forums to express his thoughts in any way he pleases. Could be very interesting reading.




Hmmm... I think you have to be careful understanding what happened here. Dave was 'working' for Bachmann (as he detailed in that other famous thread,) 'reviewing' their new models and providing technical input - which he wasn't at liberty to publish. 

Simultaneously (or shortly thereafter,) Dave wrote a 'review' of the Bachmann K-27 for GR magazine, as he is one of their occasional resources for reviewing models. 

Theoretically, there's a small conflict of interest there - if you are Bachmann and asking someone for a report on a new product, you might be a bit upset if the same person then writes a public piece, (possibly) revealing the same confidential info you solicited privately. (Knowing that Dave maintains the highest standards I'm sure there was no actual conflict.) 

It sounds like Bachmann got fed up of being beaten over the head by Dave et al about the deficiencies of the new socket; they seem to have other advisors besides Dave. 

The good news is that we won't get anymore of those posts by TOC that say "I wish I could tell you what I know about this..."


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't think "working for Bachmann" is accurate, "working with Bachmann" is probably the right way to say it. TOC respected Bachmann's wishes to hold back some information until Bachmann had a chance to address it. 

I do not think "there's a small conflict of interest" is also true, I have not known ever when TOC has compromised the truth, and that's what makes his reviews and opinions so valuable to all of us. 

Not trying to "pound" you Pete, but there is a real difference whether you are compensated/an employee, or being cooperative to help the bigger picture. 

Regards, Greg


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## jaycosnett (Jan 4, 2008)

Good grief! 

So, our beloved TOC, who has, AFAIK, developed WITHOUT PAY, fixes for OUT OF THE BOX problems with, at least, Bachmann's Shay, Connie, Railtruck and now K-27 (no doubt turning MANY potentially very dissatisfied Bachmann customers into satisfied ones), is now "out of favor" with the B-man because...? 

Because he said the so-called "super socket" is, well, less than "super"??? 

Because he WOULDN'T give said socket a "positive" review when GOD and everyone knows he thinks it is less than "positive," and knows more about WHY that is so than just about anyone else on the PLANET??? 



The B-man should get his head out of... well, you get the idea, and make Dave the President of their Large Scale Products division! To NOT do so implies that they think that making products that work reliably, out of the box, for the greatest number of customers, and that are flexible enough to meet the needs of the rest, is NOT a way to succeed in the Large Scale market. 

Not that Dave would take the job, of course. But we can dream, can't we? 

We love you, Dave. Hopefully the B-man will come to his corporate senses and realize how many new product DISASTERS they would have had over the last few years if it weren't for your unpaid work.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, 

No offence taken - I appreciate this is a sensitive topic and TOC has some loyal supporters. (I did mention he operated with the highest standards!) 

Just trying to bring a slightly different perspective, and looking forward to reading the unfettered TOC's posts.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I know English is a second language for me, but I thought the GR review was very good. It appeared to me that TOC wrote fair, unbiased review that is of great help to those of all levels of expertise. 

I would encourage TOC to continue his reviews on this and other online forums. 

Best wishes TOC


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

If you go to Bachmann's site today, you will see two people from New Zealand trying to get help for the split drive gears on their BRAND NEW, out of the box Connies. They can't seem to find the help. Oh well.......


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

A recommendation....EVERYONE that is going to the National Garden Railway Convention in Pheonix at the end of the month...need to do two things. 

1. Sit down and figure out what you want to tell the Bachmann reps at the show...face to face. Make a note card if ya have to. 

2. Visit the Bachmann booth...and tell em...standing close. 

I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO pissed right now about this situation regarding Dave...anything I might say to Bachmann via email would be full of Navy language. I'm HOPING that the Bachmann representation at the convention includes some of the senior management...and not just The Bachman...but he'll do.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By xo18thfa on 04/03/2008 11:14 AM
I know English is a second language for me, but I thought the GR review was very good. It appeared to me that TOC wrote fair, unbiased review that is of great help to those of all levels of expertise. 
I would encourage TOC to continue his reviews on this and other online forums. 
Best wishes TOC




...But he did not go onto the Oprah show, then jump up and down on the couch screaming "I love the Super Socket! I love the Super Socket!" /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif 

/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

That's 'cause Oprah wouldn't have him unless he was gay or transgendered.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Vic, 

That'd be some risky business, for sure.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 04/03/2008 12:33 PM 
That's 'cause Oprah wouldn't have him unless he was gay or transgendered.









Torby, I was going to reply "how did Tom Cruise get on then ?" but I think I'd rather not go there for now...../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif" border=0>


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Vic, 

Tom had it right. Don't you watch South Park?


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

he wouldn't jump on the couch...His cigar ashes would make a mess in his beard! and she'd never have him on, because she couldn't make him cry


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Put the "Finis" to it!!! Nuff said on to bigger and better things. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

>Dave because of his technical expertise, his attention to detail, his honesty and his utter objectivity! Dave has done this for 11 years. There are those of us that WON'T purchase a product until we have had Dave do a thorough evaluation of the model! 

Hear, hear! 

Best, 
TJ


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

The ones who will ultimately pay the price will probably be the narrow gauge modeling community! If, as I suspect, many of us have come to distrust the quality control of Bachmann's new products and are actively skeptical about the direction that certain elements at Bachmann seem to be taking us in, sales of the next new product will be less than optimal! Unfortunately, in the business world the lesson that is learned isn't always the right one! CYA is so pervasive that the truth sometimes gets ignored or worse, _invented_ to the point where it's virtually unrecognizable! If the _wrong_ lesson is learned we might end up with NO new large scale offerings! The whole thing is as convoluted as a gordian knot! That's why I didn't say I would _never_ buy a Bachmann engine again but that I would wait until all the "bugs" had been discovered and satisfactorily worked out! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Same here Steve. To be honest, aside from the Railtruck, Bachmann hasnt made anything I would consider buying of late, the last few offerings were too big & too expensive for me, and as for the 1/20.3 Porter, I already have 2 of the previous offings. So for me, its wait and see if Bmann will provide anything new I can run on my layout, then I'll decide.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Put the "Finis" to it!!! Nuff said on to bigger and better things 




The discussion will eventually degenerate to food.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 04/03/2008 6:23 AM

I didn't want to start this thread. Some are going to see it as "inflamatory" and perhaps it is but it needs to be said here. Dave Goodson (aka Curmudgeon) as many of you know, has been a member of MLS since the beginning. TOC ("The Old Curmudgeon") has also been the principal reviewer of technical matters for Outdoor Railroader/Finescale Railroader Magazine and later Garden Railways Magazine which he still does for Marc Horovitz. The problems began before this but have reached a breaking point with Dave's review of the Bachmann K-27 in Garden Railways. The review was rather mild (mainly due to editorial license) but in no way hyper critical or unfair! In fact, Dave took some flak for his "kid gloves" handling of the K-27 review! Bachmann, aparently, was not pleased. Not pleased at all! Doug Blaine, VP of Marketing for Bachmann was incensed about the review! He wanted Dave removed as a reviewer for Bachmann's products and he felt that Dave was biased against the "Universal Socket" that they had spent so much time, money and energy in developing(!) and thus couldn't give a fair review. Doug was especially upset about Dave's lack of positive reference to the Socket in the review. This was all two days ago. Dave has been told NOT to "harrass" anyone at Bachmann. . . He is essentially "persona non grata. . . .This is not a good day for our hobby.


All of this is regrettable, but recent events would _not be a factor_ in my decision on whether or not to purchase specific Bachmann products. I already have two new 2-8-0s and a 2-6-0 here still in their boxes for future use. Having examined these without trying them out, I have concluded that they more than adequately meet my purposes for the price and I would purchase Bachmann products again for the same reason.  I don't believe this thread presents enough information to affect my purchasing habits, especially considering that only one side has been heard. Nevertheless, based soley on the referenced post, it does _appear_ that Bachmann took an action that ultimately works against its own best interests.  I do consider Dave to be an invaluable resource in our hobby, but the ways in which some  corporations make their business decisions can be curious indeed.  It is just the nature of the beast. Again, I don't consider this action on the part of Bachmann to be sufficient reason not purchase products that are only offered by this company at such affordable prices.


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## dltrains (Jan 2, 2008)

Since Dave hasn't come on yet may I suggest that everyone interested go here 

 http://www.largescalecentral.com/LSCForums/viewtopic.php?id=8715 

as Dave has shed somelight on this situation 
Bachmann will wait a long while for my dollars 
Dave M.


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## Skip (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not sure how being unceremoniously dumped by B would prevent or affect his reviewing their product, especially in an independent mag like GR. Only problem I would see is his not getting an advance model to review. This is lose-lose for Bachmann, and I suspect they are actually financially in a pickle over this - ordinarily most companies wouldn't play this public a game unless there was panic in the boardroom. 

That said, IMO, a lot of the talk about the supersocket has been way over the top....


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## thekollector (Jan 2, 2008)

It wasn't public till Dave chose to make it public.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By thekollector on 04/03/2008 5:47 PM
It wasn't public till Dave chose to make it public.





So? 
What, I get to answer questions for a year as to why no reviews? 
I get a call from Kalmbach, NOT Bachmann. 
On the third day, after I had a post on LSC, I get e-mails from Bachmann. 

You got a problem with this? 

You have absolutely NO idea the stuff going on right now. 
None. 

And, for the record, I did not start this thread. 

I have always tried to keep open communications, not hiding information like some do, attempting at every turn to turn attention away from the facts. 

Maybe next week it will sort itself out.


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## Eric Cooper (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd like to know what Kalmbach's reaction to this will be. Supposedly, journalists and their publications are unbiased. Note: I used the qualifier "supposedly." Will Kalmbach fold in the face of threats from an advertiser? Will they uphold journalistic ethics and let Dave continue to do reviews? Inquiring minds want to know. It seems to me that GRM, being the only game in town large-scalewise, would be pretty much immune from a threat by B'mann to withhold advertising. Soooo, Dave will Kalmbach do the right thing? 

Eric


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## Pufftmd (Jan 25, 2008)

Eric.. I like the way you think... I was thinking that too... BackStabbingBachmann doesn't hold all the cards... What will Kalmbach and Marc do?... might make a interesting editoral in the next GRM by Marc... or will it just be swept under the carpet like a lot of things in G-Scale... Inquireing minds want to know... hahhaha 
Rick Brown 
Pine Needle & Stump Pile Railroad 
Port Orchard, WA.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Hopefully, Durango Dan will get hold of this.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah....it's been three days...and no inside scoop! Damn! I wondering whether the next time I meet The Bachman will be started by "Are you Durango Dan?"...like it was at the Sacremento Show. Dwight was the next one questioned with the same question...he was right beside me. Talk about bad PR...but, The Bachman had been personally reproached by Durango Dan during the K27 controversy...so I can understand the reason for the question. On the other hand...he WAS an official rep for Bachmann at that show. Gotta say....I was shocked...especially given that the Lead Moderator for the largest GRR site was also being asked that question. Talk about dumb..... 

Back channel comms say there is a LOT more going on with this Goodson/Bachmann/Kalmbach flap...and lawsuit fears. This whole Dave Goodson slam is just pure crap. I hope Dave comes out smelling like a rose. 

Still working on my "remarks" for the Nationals....hope others are. Somehow, those of us that use this internet stuff as an adjunct to our hobby, need to stand up, and say something from OUR perspective. Me-thinks that some in the industry DON'T understand..... 

Lastly, having been around Marc Horowitz for a day or so during the last SDGRS regionals (and that's ENOUGH to make a very positive impression)...IMHO, he's likely NOT party to this...but just more meat in the sandwich of that Kalmbach and Bachmann are preparing. Not sure that's true...but he's a solid guy IMHO. I find it hard to believe he called Dave just to tell him he was fired. That's real hard to believe...for me.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

In all fairness (and to try and keep the record straight) I sent Bachmann Industries an email in which I lambasted their decision as "unwise in the extreme." I also took them to task for the way they have treated Dave's efforts to help them over the past 11 years. I received an answer from Doug Blaine, VP Marketing, that referenced a response he gave to another email that came into him. Essentially, he denied that Bachmann has tried to have Dave dismissed and never would. He _did_ say that because of Dave's posts (and I'm paraphrasing here) they felt that Dave might be less than objective towards a technology that they have spent a lot of time and effort on. He was merely expressing his concerns. 

Now, I have mentioned this over on LSC and I think that it bears repeating over here. Two years ago (some of you may recall) I posted an April Fool that Bachmann had purchased Accucraft! TOTALLY FALSE and not meant to harm anybody but it got me in BIG trouble!! I had to publicly apologize on the Bachmann board and here on MLS to Accucraft!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif Why? _Because this is not only a hobby, it's a business!_ WORDS MEAN THINGS!! Why bring this up? Guess what? The specter of "lawsuit" has started to be bandied around. I personally think that Bachmann's handling of this situation has been foolish in the extreme but I have been sufficiently "cowed" that I feel it necessary to review what I have said to make sure that _everything_ I post can be backed up with "facts" and not heresay! Just because it _might_ have been said, it it isn't in print it _didn't happen_ "legally" and saying so could open up someone to a possible libel lawsuit!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif 

Before anyone goes off on a "Hate Bachmann" Crusade I would advise caution! This is a corporate decision and it will eventually work itself out. Expressing outrage is our right but when we do, _please_ be careful about your facts! It's not what happened but what you can prove!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I just checked the One to Twenty Point ME website and Durango Dan seems to hint there is a whole lot more to this. He is calling it "public relations suicide". Interesting.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

My take on it is that Bmann is being led down the garden path by someone (with a vested interest)telling them that TOC is against DCC and any socket, when in fact he is NOT against DCC, he is just against an ill-conceived design that fails to maximize versatility for of ALL potential users whether Battery, DCC or other. But then I'm preaching to the converted here, we all know the real story and who's been telling porkies.  
Anyway, we are the ones who have control over the situation: If the reviews keep getting selectively 'processed', don't support the magazine--Kalmbach will get the message eventually. We need to vote with our wallets and refuse to be beta testers for these manufacturers who are cheaping out on QC/QA. For my part I subscribe to Gartenbahnprofi and don't own any Aristo or Bmann.


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## jlyans (Jan 2, 2008)

I just got the Mar/Apr NG&SL Gazette and the review of the K-27 was short and absolutely glowing with no mention of the counterweight situation, the super socket, or the 80 mph gearing. (None of which dissuaded me from buying a K-27 that I actually really like). There is also a review of the AMS Jackson & Sharp coach that states that the car "tracks well." (I also have a J&S coach that I think is great, a real bargain, but it doesn't track well at all - it barely rolls). Now I love the Gazette but this is hardly a usefull review. It is more of an advertisement. 

I think the only place to get a realistic review of a product with both the strengths and weaknesses discussed is in an online forum where the vested interests do not have as much influence. There was a magazine published back in the early 1970's, a predecessor to the Gazette, called "Slim Gauge News." There was a reviewer that went by the name "Leighton Slough" I believe that was not afraid to tell it like he saw it. He wrote great reviews, and he sure wasn't afraid to mention the shortcomings of a product. I specifically remember one about an HOn3 K-27 with an overly "fat boiler" that generated a lot of controversy. Those were very helpfull reveiws. But then again, that magazine didn't last all that long either! 

John


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## John McGuyer (Jan 2, 2008)

Heaven forbid, in my detailing a K-27 over in the model building forum, I said their wiring diagram was terrible. Do you think black helicopters will be landing out front soon? 

John


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## GrizzlyFlatsFan (Jan 5, 2008)

it's too late, John. They're probably already checking your video rentals and library books. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif


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## Charles M (Jan 2, 2008)

Like the phoenix rising from the ashes , Slim Gauge News and Finelines combined to become the Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazette. I think we have a better magazine for that combination. I have been with them since Issue # 1 , and have never been disappointed . 

Charles M SA #74


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## Josef Rieder (Jan 18, 2008)

This whole thing could be avoided if Bachmann weren't so arrogant. Bachmann has no one to blame but themselves in this issue, if you design a product poorly and people don't like it, tough, deal with it. The auto industry gets negative reviews all the time, anyone who has read any auto magazine knows this. Unless a review is extremely inflammatory, no one gets mad. If anything, the company will CHANGE the problem, not pass the buck. Anyway, thats my 2 cents on the issue.


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## Pufftmd (Jan 25, 2008)

The thing I still haven't gotten a handle on is.... "We" pay a couple of hundred dollars for a product.... we take it out of the box and we end up fixing it or have to do some juryrigging to make it work. this isn't just Bachmann... can think of a couple of other's... 

Why do we stand for it? Are we as stupid as some of us look? 

Rick Brown 
Pine Needle & Stump Pile Railroad 
Port Orchard, WA.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pufftmd on 04/05/2008 12:35 AM
The thing I still haven't gotten a handle on is.... "We" pay a couple of hundred dollars for a product.... we take it out of the box and we end up fixing it or have to do some juryrigging to make it work. this isn't just Bachmann... can think of a couple of other's... 
Why do we stand for it? Are we as stupid as some of us look? 
Rick Brown 
Pine Needle & Stump Pile Railroad 
Port Orchard, WA.




Take note of the pic to the left and then decide if I am completely innocent of all accusations./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif


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## david bunn (Jan 4, 2008)

I wasn't going to comment on this as there is too much ag in our working lives to generate more in what is suposed to be an enjoyable pastime. 
However, I have enjoyed Daves reviews and articles and have only ever found them to be constructive to both manufacturers and hobbyists alike,the latest on the K in GR magazine was great AND unbiased and based on that I would have no hesitation in buying one if I could afford it.Mr B take note!. 
I have also had excellent service from Mr Bachmanns products, excellent value for money and the basis for many hours of enjoyable 'bashing'.OK they are not perfect but the alternative is to save and buy much more expensive products which I cannot afford. 
On a slightly different note although I would dearly love to add a K to my rosta the price here in the UK is almost the same in pounds as it is on the other side of the pond in dollars.£629 for a K with plough and green boiler that is the equivalent of $1120 and for that I do expect something almost perfect and if Daves evaluations help to make it so then he should be embraced, metephorically of course!!!!!!!!!!!and not shunned. 
Oh well out with the saw and on with the bashing. 
Bunny


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Take note of the pic to the left and then decide if I am completely innocent of all accusations


Tony, 

As none of your pictures are visible, that's a tough question! 

_P.S. not sure why. I copied your 'logo' pic URL to my browser and it worked. Then I right-clicked on it and said 'show picture' and that worked. The 'avatar' pic that you referred to didn't show up at all initially, but now it does. Maybe something to do with the time it takes to get here from Oz?_


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## jlyans (Jan 2, 2008)

The thing I still haven't gotten a handle on is.... "We" pay a couple of hundred dollars for a product.... we take it out of the box and we end up fixing it or have to do some juryrigging to make it work. this isn't just Bachmann... can think of a couple of other's...Why do we stand for it? Are we as stupid as some of us look? Rick Brown Pine Needle & Stump Pile Railroad Port Orchard, WA.



I think we have been spoiled by the availability of many products that DO run well right out of the box. Pretty soon we start to expect everything to run perfectly. My perspective on this comes from my background in HOn3 where NOTHING was ready to run. Rolling stock came in the form of kits or came less trucks and couplers and brass locomotives had to be tweaked and re-motored to run well. I really don't mind having to fix things like loose counterweights from Bachmann or non-rolling trucks from AMS. That's really part of the fun of the hobby for me. I spend far more time building and modifying my trains than I do running them. I get pretty bored watching the trains run in a big circle. 

I think we are incredibly lucky to have AMS freight cars that are near ready-to-tun and the Bachmann K-27 even with it's shortcomings. I would rather have a correctly scaled locomotive that needs tweaking than an incorrectly scaled loco that runs like a clock. So it boils down to if you can live with the problems, buy a K-27. If you can't, buy something in 1:22.5 or 1:29 that runs better. 

Just my take on the situation. 

John 

P.S. Many thanks to Dave Goodson for testing and posting fixes to make the Bachmann equipment run better.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, Dave is VERY helpful! Jerry


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Will Kalmbach stick up for TOC and not knuckle under to an advertiser? 

How many of you remember the "Floquill/Stove Polish" incident? 

Robert


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

We shall see. I don't see any editor of Marc Horovitz's caliber allowing a manufacturer to turn his magazine into a mouthpiece for the Bachmann marketing department! I _do_ know that Dave is getting pretty d*mn tired of the political cr*p that he has had to endure! It's one thing to tell someone, "Mind your own business. We don't want your help." (It's incredibly _stupid_ but it IS their business to run as they see fit!) but it is entirely another thing to try and influence the reviews by besmirching the reputation of Dave by demanding that he not review ANY Bachmann product!! 
This is one of those Catch 22 situations; if Marc goes ahead and assigns a bachmann review to Dave and he does his usual dead-on-accurate, impartial and completely thorough job and there is a problem somewhere, Bachmann will say that it's "sour grapes" and "retaliation against Bachmann" or even "bias towards Bachmann!" If, on the other hand, Dave reviews a product and it's nearly perfect, he will be accused by some of "sucking up to Bachmann" or "slanting the review" or worse! Never mind the fact that Dave has consistently been the standard for many by which reviews are measured! It's a lose/lose situation and I hope Dave tells Bachmann "thanks but you're on your own!" 
The person I feel for the most is Marc Horovitz! He just lost a helluva reviewer! Worse, _every_ Bachmann product review is now going to be greeted with the skepticism that it deserves! I won't be buying another new Bachmann engine until I have seen the reviews and have let others find all the problems! (No, Bachmann! We _haven't_ forgotten OR forgiven your little faux pas! If you thought that it would just go away with time you are sadly mistaken.) 
Honestly though, there's not a lot that we can do about it. Bachmann not only doesn't listen to us but is actively _irritated_ when we give our opinions! Nothing more to be said./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2008)

I'd bet Bachmann ain't finished with GR Mag reviews...


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## John McGuyer (Jan 2, 2008)

This is where we have to give credit to Russ Reinberg. He always told it like it is. I know of one specific instance where a very well known manufacture cussed him out and hung up on him because they didn't like his review. That changed him not a bit. 

John


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## carpenter matt (Jan 3, 2008)

It has occured to me, that B-man is missing the obvious. I really don't understand why they don't ship one or more loco's to Dave before they go into production to figure out the glitches before they occur. Evidently the quality control "in house tester" person isn't doing there job. If I was B-man I would be asking "why didn't you find these problems?


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## BNGP10 (Jan 4, 2008)

I think Couger Rock Rail said it best in that we as the consumer have the final and ultimate say here. We speak with our wallets in what we buy from the various large scale vendors. It isnt brand specific, if another brand product has issues or bad press, we dont buy it. Lots of folks refuse to buy a first year automobile model, not because the brand has issues, but because commonly the bugs havent been totaly worked out yet. My guess would be that they should have delayed full blown production and done some consumer beta testing quietly before hand to get the bugs out of the locomotives by use in folks garden railways. Hopefully it will work out for the better in the end, for now we sit back and enjoy the warmer weather that has finaly arrived in Erie, PA. Cheers


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