# My first layout design!



## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Well guys I finally finished my first layout design that I am happy with. I drew it up on Railmodeller for Mac and pretty much used flex track for the whole thing. I'm sure I will tweak it just a bit but tell me what you guys think. ^^ Each square on the grid represents 1 square foot. The brown circle represents a mountain and the blue represents water flowing down the mountain, over waterfalls and into a pond. The gray green section around the layout represents a path around the layout and the 3-D looking gray polygons around the bottom of the layout represents the wall that surrounds the layout which will raise it about 3 feet or so. So far it is called the Conrail Ressurection Project. Let me know what you guys think ^^]



-Will


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

little large photo. good track plan two loops ,


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

Hiow are you planning to landscape it? Will it be planted, or left natural?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks good.. put another crossover between loops, if you can. It would also be good to put in where sidings will be eventually for dropping off/picking up cars. 

Find a place for a switchyard, hopefully with tracks long enough to hold a whole train. These things will really add to your enjoyment. 

I like the 2 independent loops idea... 

Regards, Greg


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like a good workable design! Don't forget to make your elevation changes as gradual as possible. As a rule of thumb, mainline standard gauge modern railroads stay 2% or less. If you are modeling narrow gauge then you can go up to 4% but it does put a strain on your engines (and is bloody difficult to plow in the winter!) Anything higher than 4% and you are in the realm of logging railroads using geared engines!


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2009)

the walkways for 1:1 scale people look too narrow. Make most of them wide enough so that two people can pass each other. 

Add some sidings in later for switching but a twice around loop works pretty well.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I think it looks good too Will! Nice broad curves should allow you to run anything out there too. 

I figured the diagram is just to provide a rough idea and that the walkway areas will probably be a little wider than one foot. One of those things that once you actually get out there and start building you will adjust somethings for appeal and functionality. 

I think it's a great plan Will, can't wait to see you break ground and get started. Are you going to give the RR a name? W of S RR maybe?







I didn't assign a name to mine but many do. 

Keep us posted. 


Raymond


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Very impressive Will. My next house will have to have a yard big enough for a layout that size.


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

Very nice layout. Much more ambitious than mine.


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Thanks a bunch guys ^^ Astrayelmgod I am going to landscape it yes. Gwschreyer, the walkways aren't to scale at all. They are actually not going to be polygons. The important part is the locations of everything. And Greg this is my first layout so I am just making main lines for now ^^ I'll have to see how this goes before adding to it. Everyone said to start small so I am starting medium lol. I tried to make it appealing to the eyes, and practical, but it is more difficult than my skill level but hey, having you guys to help me out as much as you guys do, I'm not worried about it at all. You guys gave me the confidence to go with it. Thanks a bunch! 

-Will


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Will, experiment and play around. Publish here, many people will give many opinions. One thing that worked for me is trying to put in or make room for the spurs/sidings in the first place, and then try to build the layout in stages. 

I did an inner loop, an outer loop, then a switchyard, etc. Each phase added more running space, but phase one gave me a loop to run around. 

You might read this page on my site as an example: *[url]http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/planning-aamp-design-mainmenu-55* [/url]


Regards, Greg


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah, What do you plan on doing with the trains when they aren't actually running? Having to carry everything on and off of the layout everytime you want to use it is a real drag, Trust me.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, do you still have pics on your website of that double helix you had? Do you still have it? Never thought of it before but it would be kinda neat to see a video of the trains running up and down the helix.

I can say I agree with rpc7271 on that one. I know it's not an option for everyone but that was why I ended up building that big ramp up into the basement and cut a hole in the side of the house. Driving them out is much nicer than carrying them. That is if you have a way to do it...


Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes Ray:

*[url]http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/layout-progress-aamp-development-mainmenu-57/building-a-helix-mainmenu-62*[/url]

It was just too tight, so I ran the track down along the fence, and looped it back along the house.

So far it's working, ran an 8 car passenger with 2 E8's and about 20 car freight.


Will keep increasing train length.

The helix was just too tight, about 8' diameter and too steep. Now, I could run locos up it, but I think to do it right, you would need to be 15' diameter or greater.


Regards, Greg


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Hmmm, good point. Maybe something portable so I don't have to take up too much more of the yard lol. Most of it will be incorporated into the layout. Greg the double helix is a great idea but the layout will be raised and so would the point I put the trains on so I guess it would just be a straight bridge to the layout. The other option is putting a shed close to the layout and keeping the power and trains in that. First things first, privacy fence for when Marty brings his trains over wearing his Aristo T-shirt and speedos. I think my neighbors would draw the line there.







Hmmm... I'm not sure how I'd explain that one...







This will devalue the property a bit doing this project but I'm not planning on going anywhere. At least... not yet. Thanks for all the input guys ^^

-Will


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Will, the helix was just for Ray's request, not a suggestion to you at all. 

Put a shed up and run a track into it, one of the best ideas. 

Regards, Greg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah sorry I wasn't sure you necessarily wanted to do a Helix, but thought it would be something interesting to have Greg share.

The direct link to the layout isn't something that really hit me till later and carrying the engines to the layout day after day after day. If I had to recommend one thing to put some thought into for the long term that would be it. 

Have fun.


Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Even a track into the garage, or an area that would be easy to load and unload. 

Regards, Greg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

You both have my current track plan beat!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That's a great looking design. I like it a lot. My biggest regret with ours is that I fit the trains into an existing garden, rather than doing the whole thing as a piece. The two independent loops coming together and moving away will look great.


Best thing I ever did was to build a train shed, so I could just roll the trains in and out under their own power. We have a small house, space is limited, and carrying the stuff back and forth is a big pain, and it leads to things breaking a lot. The shed doubles as a yard too. I can't tell what your space is like, but building a car barn made the whole experience much more pleasant for me. I got the idea from people here. it's since been painted red.


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## cephius (Jan 10, 2008)

Will,
Very nice plan. One question: Do the brackets on either side of the crossover represent tunnel portals?


Dave


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Thanks a bunch cephius ^^ Actually no, if you zoom in on them really close you can see signal lights on them. They actually represent 2 Aristocraft signal bridges to go across both tracks. The only problem as of right now is that I haven't gotten them yet and can't find any dimension information on them so I don't know how wide of track spacing they will accomodate. The track spacing that I am going with is most likely going to be a universal 9" railcenter to railcenter so hopefully that won't be a problem. If so, I will have to make some changes, but I am expecting to have to do that anyways. 

-Will


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## krogerssolar (Jan 8, 2009)

Anyone have any ideas for me i am expanding my first lgb starter set i have run the track on the ground for a while but i purchased a Aristocrat Fa unit and a lgb Amtrak and they derails if the track is not level and where i have it is in the mountains of Colorado so the ground is not flat where i am i have been looking at layout/videos on youtube and see some people with a wood base ie like a saw horses with a 2' wide sheet of osb on top my deal is i need something level and way of the ground at times i get about four to five + feet of snow on the ground any one done this i plan on running more than one loco at a time my power should be good for now just got my first dash-9 but due to it being winter i cant run it out side also don't have my track out i take it up every time it snows 

any help would be great


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By krogerssolar on 01/09/2009 11:23 AMhttp://1stclass.mylargescale.com/stevec/POC RR/POC_Main.pdf Anyone have any ideas for me i am expanding my first lgb starter set i have run the track on the ground for a while but i purchased a Aristocrat Fa unit and a lgb Amtrak and they derails if the track is not level and where i have it is in the mountains of Colorado so the ground is not flat where i am i have been looking at layout/videos on youtube and see some people with a wood base ie like a saw horses with a 2' wide sheet of osb on top my deal is i need something level and way of the ground at times i get about four to five + feet of snow on the ground any one done this i plan on running more than one loco at a time my power should be good for now just got my first dash-9 but due to it being winter i cant run it out side also don't have my track out i take it up every time it snows 

any help would be great 




This may seem obnoxious of me, but if you could like, punctuate the query it would be a LOT easier to deal with. 

There's no need to take the track up in snow--it's perfectly weather proof. How high off the ground do you want it? 

The first thing to do to keep your track outside is figure out what kind of base you want. Some people dig a trench and fill it with gravel and "float" the track in gravel. Some people pour concrete. Some people build a base out of pressure treated wood. If you want it high off the ground, like four feet, you need some kind of bench work. Search the buildings forum for "orford" and see the fantastic stuff Richard Smith does. Or download this pdf.:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/stevec/POC%20RR/POC_Main.pdf

If you just want it a couple feet off the ground, you can use the "ladder" method. Search the track and trestle forum for "ladder" and you can see a lot of examples and discussions of different ways to do it. It's what I use--you can see pics on my websit.


Here's a link that explains the "ladder" method in detail, though it calls for a kind of lumber that's hard to find. I didn't use that kind


http://www.btcomm.com/trains/primer/roadbed/ladder1.htm 


You need to build a base that you can level and true. Then you can start adding on!


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## Terl (Jan 2, 2008)

Will 

I think that your basic track plan is sound and trains would look good interacting with each other on the two loops. Large radius curves is definitely a plus. 

If you are going to have a 3 foot retaining wall around your layout that would put your layout at a nice viewing level and convenient access for most of the track. But that is a LOT of dirt to haul in and place. Several truck loads my guess and expensive and plan on a year for the dirt to settle. Also make sure you have experienced or professional input on the retaining walls so that they are well drained and anchored so that they don't pushover over with time and weather. Also on your plan there is a lot of interior space inside the rails for gardening maintenance which is basically back at the ground level for your back and knees. 

I see that you want to have a fairly large water feature. This is good in that you could use the dirt from it's excavation to construct landscaping for mountains and hills etc. I have learned from my water feature with a large pond in the middle of the river was a disadvantage. All water features tend to leak, and with the large pond in the middle there was a lot of leakage before the water got to the end of the river. I think that in general it works better to have the big pond at the bottom and the smaller pond in the middle. Of course I used cheap plastic for my liner instead of the heavy rubber so that is why my water feature is a dry river bed almost all of the time. Once again get professional or experienced advice on this. 

Something you may want to consider is instead of raising the railroad, lower the operator. That is dig a 3 foot wide 1 foot deep trench around the perimeter of the railroad where you walk, pile that dirt on the inside for your railroad and the dirt on the inside will be about 3 feet higher than the operator, giving you the same visual effect without hauling in any additional dirt. I used this principal on my layout. The dirt from the river excavation was piled up for the mountains and the mountains look to be 4 feet higher than the river with only 2 feet of excavation. The track is about the original ground level here: 










This picture also shows my larger middle pond which leaks quite a bit. There are no retaining walls on my railroad. 

I found a planning method which helped me a lot. I took a small tub of sand, drew a meandering river on it, then excavated the sand from the river and formed the hills around it. Then I started drawing in track where it fit the landscape. Railroads often follow rivers, but where track goes perpendicular to the river you end up with bridges and tunnels. See if this might give you some ideas. 

Once again I like your track plan, and look forward to hearing more from you about it. 

Terl


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## Terl (Jan 2, 2008)

Krogersolar 

You might consider my Flexible spine system for your mountain railroad. 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/9/postid/59569/view/topic/Default.aspx 

It works great for a ground level railroad in the mountains. Also If there was four feet of snow on the ground would you be out there running trains anyway? 

Terl


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## krogerssolar (Jan 8, 2009)

i would not be running my trains in the snow is it ok to leave the track out in the snow


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I figure that if real RRs leave their track out all winter who am I to second guess their precident!


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## cephius (Jan 10, 2008)

Yes


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## Terl (Jan 2, 2008)

Snow won't hurt your track. Do a little search on this site and you'll find neat pictures and videos of people plowing snow off their track. 

Terl


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## MilitaryMike0023 (Oct 9, 2008)

looks sweet man


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Well guys the privacy fence around my property is completed and the layout is about to begin. Unfortunately, I had to redesign the layout just a bit to keep it within the confines of the privacy fence. It is the same premise but now the S-curve on the outskirts of the project was taken out and replaced with a tunnel. It was a fair trade methinks ^^ I am working on Railmodeller right now to adapt the changes made so that I can post a pic of the changes. The other problem was the sheer size of the layout and wanting to raise it up 2 feet. After getting quotes from contractors in the local area, the price involved is just too high, so right now that will have to take the back seat. It might be a consideration for next year though. For right now I will have something to work on though so wish me luck as I break ground. Pics of the privacy fence are posted below.


-Will

p.s. - Marty, thanks a bunch for your Concrete Roadbed article. It has been a tremendous help in my planning.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Do your neighbors think you are weird for putting up a fence? I was told long ago that people sometimes took offense to putting up fences. Here in Kalifornia, everyone has a fence. 

Looks like a great start! 

Regards, Greg


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Actually Greg I told them about it beforehand and they didn't mind at all lol. They seemed to appreciate my asking if it was ok. 

-Will


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## studeclunker (Mar 15, 2009)

I really like the shed idea. In fact, I think that’s how mine will be done. Except that the shed will be 1:1 scale with benches for the trains. I’d much rather be able to walk around.

Using cheap plastic is one of the worst things one can do with a water feature. Sorry, but there it is. One should use a good quality pond liner. They’re available at Home Depot, Lowes and most garden suppliers. Lilly Pons sells them as well. 

When doing water features such as rivers, streams or waterfalls, put your features, such as rocks and the waterfall itself, over the top[/i] of the liner. Don’t be afraid to use a little mortar to secure your rocks. Every time one has a seam, such as where a stream feeds into a pond, make sure the liners are glued or taped together in a watertight manner. Always make your liner wider than you need. You can always plant some verge plants that love water on the edges. One more thing: Your liner should always overlap the feature by at least a foot, and this lap (please forgive me for stating the obvious) must be above the high water mark. Water will wick out of your feature, if it comes in contact with a medium that permits such (like sand, planting mix and soil). So, it’s best to have anything like this for your water garden below the high water mark and perhaps slightly above the normal level.

The water feature shown in your drawing is interesting, but if I may suggest just a small[/i] pool at the foot of the falls. That way one could walk around in the centre of the layout. Another thing you might consider is building the mountain up with retaining wall blocks. That way you could save the cost of a tradesman and expand with little effort and lost materials. The interim track-work could be placed on benches until such time as you could afford the fill, topsoil, and blocks. The only problem with mortarless blocks is that they slope away from you. This will make it necessary to lean further over to get to the track, trains, and landscaping. It’s an admittedly small problem, but there nonetheless. One thing that can be done with this kind of retaining wall, is to allow a gap between each block. It would’nt need to be more than quarter or half an inch. Fill as you go with the filler behind and potting soil in the cracks. You could plant Creeping Thyme, Prostrate Rosemary or any other creeping plant to cover and/or decorate your wall. It would soften the lines of it and kind of lend a mountainous, chaparral-ish, appearance to the whole setup. The gaps won’t weaken the wall appreciably since it’s not going to be very tall anyway. The plants would eventually actually provide some strengthening to the whole structure.


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Well guys, here is the final design and ground break is at hand. I hope you like it. 


-Will


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Will, 

I am impressed and this is a big project for you. Hope you can keep the progress pics coming. And can I ask and I may have missed this on the thread: How many linear feet of track is in this layout and are you using SS or Brass? Code 250 or 332? 

Thanks


GG

PS: Wish my wife would give up the same kind of real estate or fraction thereof !


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## KYYADA (Mar 24, 2008)

That is a really good plan. You might consider a mountain ridge from the NE to SW with a gap in the middle where your tracks are. It would hide some of the layout from view as you walk around. I think a different view as you walk around the layout makes it more interesting. 

Good Luck! 
Johnny


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Will
that was good you asked, here they build half fence with a gate to the neighbors or use bushes. A full 6ft means you don't want to be friends.
My main advise to any one is think of maintance of the yard. Leave room for mowers, etc.
Did you get a permit? They look like a company doing the work.
We have to have the good looking side of the fence out .
Think outside the box, keep lots of room to creat distance.

I wish we lived closer, a bunch of our club guys would love to come over and help throw dirt clods at ya.


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## studeclunker (Mar 15, 2009)

Looks like a very entertaining plan with lots of movement. The water feature should be quite interesting. I’d love[/i] to see pics as you progress.[/i]


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking great Will, I really like the plan you've drawn up. Having the fence done is a big piece that's out of the way. Now, on to construction! 


Raymond


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## pfa (Apr 4, 2009)

Hi all,

I've been reading this forum off and on for a year or so but this is my first post. 
Need to make a comment from a rookie to a rookie.

Will--

I like your design but a word of caution on the tunnel from from a little publication of Garden Railways called "Tips and Tricks for your garden railway"

"#74 - Thoughts on tunnel design. Never build a tunnel longer than twice the length of your arm. Don't build tunnels on curves. If you must build a long tunnel, make sure you have an access hatch in the middle, because that is where your train will surely derail."


That said, I did, I did, I didn't, and it does. So this summer I will be building an access hatch in the middle of my 8 ft long curved tunnel. 


paul


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul, good advice. 
The only time i have derailments in tunnels is when visitors come, I use a hoe with a brum screwed to it to push cars out. and clean leaves out. I have an access hatch but never use them. the brum is faster.


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Thanks for all the positive feedback guys! I'll answer your questions in the order they were recieved -chuckle-.

GG: The layout is about 500 feet total with both loops. The track is code 332 Stainless Steel Aristo. Also GG the layout is going to be built with some very nice dimensions. The railcenter to railcenter distance on double track will be 9 inches. All overhead clearances will be 11 inches to easily accomodate double stacks. All curves are at least 20' diameter. And the double crossover uses #6 switches for easy transition. The idea is a very user-friendly layout. All G-scale equipment will be able to operate on the layout upon completion. Recommended dimensions came right from MLS members ;-)

Johnny: I have actually considered doing just that Johnny. The layout design is in a basic state because it will take long enough just to complete this portion. I'm sure it won't be done after this. I get so many new idea from MLS all the time. Just so much talent around here.


Marty: Yessir Marty, there is a 14' wide double gate on the driveway and a 7' fence on the other side of the house, easily accessible. Didn't need a permit, the company that installed it called codes to make sure everything was ok and in order.

Paul: Hiya Paul and welcome to MLS ^^ I did read that issue as well Paul and took heed. There will be a hatch to access the inside of the tunnel and I'm going to make the inside pretty wide to accomodate equipment without having to worry about scrapes and bruises. I'm sure it will happen, hopefully it won't be too bad, but a hatch will help.


I think I'm going to use feeders every 10-20 feet of track for performance. I'm not the most knowledgeable about battery R/C and live steam. Are there any considerations for these methods of running that I haven't considered? I figure they just load their trains on the track and go. Is there any problem with them running on powered track? Thanks for the support guys. I'll have more pics as the layout progresses.










-Will


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Some Aristocraft engines that come wired for battery operation do not isolate the battery pickups from the tender track power pickups thus causing an issue. So unless someone running their Aristo engine with a battery setup has corrected the wiring in the tender (if they have that problem) will cause an issue when placed on the track. A simple check with your voltmeter for continuity between the pins on the battery connectors and the wheels on the tender and engine (with the engine off the track of course) should tell you if you have a problem or not. I should note that if it does have the problem, it's very quick and easy to correct.

Since you will probably be using a 19.5 Degree crossover and will be running USA trains engines (some assume will have sliders) I would recommend you modify your crossover like I did mine to ensure you don't have slider shorts.

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/gardenrr_mods.htm - See the Tack/Roadbed/Layout wiring section and then the Aristcraft 19.5 Degree Crossover bullet.

One thing I am going to do that I didn't do in this initial modification is to add another set of jumper so the crossover can pass current from one side to the other. As it is done now, it powers the center rails from one side but doesn't pass power. 

Some may suggest removing the sliders but I don't recommend that based on the performance I've seen of the one and only USA 2 axle engine I've seen that done to. It had power pickup issues.


Raymond


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Engineercub on 04/04/2009 8:59 AM
I'm not the most knowledgeable about battery R/C and live steam. Are there any considerations for these methods of running that I haven't considered? I figure they just load their trains on the track and go. Is there any problem with them running on powered track?


-Will 



Many Live Steam locos (and tenders) do not have insulated wheels and thus do not play well on powered track or with battery powered engines that do not have insulated wheels running on the same track at the same time. Thus when running them, you MUST turn off Track Power or they will short out your supply or if on the same track with a battery powered loco that has the battery power connected to their wheels.

Other than that, you should have no problem running Live Steam.


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Hmmm, well I guess I can seperate each loop from power in that case. Oh boy laying PVC pipe is fun. It is not easy laying it by yourself, that's for sure. It is kind of tough keeping both sides level with one pair of hands. So far I have the future double crossover in place. My measurements are ending up a little bit off due to sagging of the PVC. I think I may end up going with 5 foot sections instead as opposed to supporting them in between. I'm out in the yard going nuts singing things like "Does your PVC hang low, does it dangle to and fro, can you tie it in a knot, can you tie it in a bow?" I hope my neighbors still think I'm sane after all this lol. But hey, at least it is progress no matter how quirky the operation is. I'm open for any and all suggestions ;-)

-Will


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Will, 

What laying technique are you using? Ladder, PVC or what? 

gg


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

I'm using PVC for now GG and it is going well. It's great to see where the track is going to be laid. I got about 100 feet of PVC laid today and am moving right along. I hope everything works out well. I'm counting on it. Here are two pictures of my official ground break. Enjoy ;-P

-Will


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Beautiful and more please. 

*I need to know what type of ladder system you have adopted. *

I am very jealous... I, in the north country still have snow on the ground. 


I will take a pic of the construction site soon.... you will see. 

gg


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## KYYADA (Mar 24, 2008)

Hey Will, 

How did you make out with the weather, Heard it was a little windy your way. I hope all is well. I'm in KY if you haven't figured that out by my handle, around the London area. 

Johnny


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Hiya Johnny, 
Yessir I made it through ok but many were not so lucky. Several tornados touched down and did alot of damage. One of which was just HUGE. Thanks for keeping me in your thoughts ^^ I really appreciate it. 

-Will 

p.s. - GG I'm not using a ladder system actually. The PVC is only temporary so that I have a marker for where the track is going to be. Once it is all marked I am going to put a concrete roadbed in it's place and build the ground up and down around it for topographical appeal. So far I have learned alot about laying PVC pipe and will share it in an article soon lol.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Engineercub on 04/08/2009 8:16 PM
I'm using PVC for now GG and it is going well. It's great to see where the track is going to be laid. I got about 100 feet of PVC laid today and am moving right along. I hope everything works out well. I'm counting on it. Here are two pictures of my official ground break. Enjoy ;-P

-Will




























Impressive design: nice clean lines and wide curves. I see no provisions in the plan for connecting switches, sidings or rail yards. At some point you will almost certainly connect these two separate lines and some sidings are also almost certain to follow.


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## studeclunker (Mar 15, 2009)

I’ve been out of the loop for quite a while and have never seen this technique with PVC pipe (scratching head in puzzlement). What exactly are you doing with it? I have[/i] heard of using a hose to lay out one’s basic shape. Will you be using the PVC for conduit (power, signals, lighting, etc..) after setting up the track? Being a CASO (Cheap A$$ Studebaker Owner) I just can’t conceive setting up with that much pipe only to take it down again. Then again, like I said, I’ve been out of this loop for quite a long time… 

One thing you might try to reduce the sagging problem is to cut your pipe to five or possibly three-foot-four-inch pieces. This will eliminate the sagging. It will also produce a more rigid, stable structure. 

"BUT! Is... a... PUZZLEMENT!" -Yule Brenner, as the King of Siam, in _The King And I._


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Thanks Will and yes I concur with Studeclunker.... Need to understand the concepts behind the PVC system you are using. 


I started fabrication of my "Brian" ladder system yesterday and will be using a modified stake (quasi floating) system. 

I look forward to see your project unfold. I will share some shots of my budding efforts on another thread. 




gg


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Will: The layout is going to be awsome when complete. The ground breaking for me was the worst part but once you get that done it gets fun. At least for me. It is even better when you get that first train running. Cant wait to see your progress.


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Actually Blackburn, currently there are only 2 main lines because that is all the track I have at the moment. I'm just keeping it simple for the moment so that I can get some trains up and running however there is a double crossover just east of the pond so the trains can traverse from loop to loop. I don't want to get too complex just yet. Studeclunker and GG yes I am actually using the PVC as just a marker and it will eventually be coming out. Since it is going to take me quite a while to get the concrete laid, it is just a short-term marker too keep the track in perspective. It will not go to waste however as it can be used to mark new additions to the layout that will eventually be coming. It is just a marker to get the grade right and the measurements right on putting the track in place because it is a huge layout and to get the curves right I need a point of reference, ergo the PVC pipe. I don't need to take it up but I am going to once I get the forms in place for the concrete. I'll do an explanation thread so everyoen knows why I am doing it at a later time no worries lol. 

-Will


p.s. - Thanks Shawn ^^


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

This is quite the plan and I really like the concepts. 

Looking forward to progress reports. Will, you are on stage here. Make us proud !










GG 


PS: Semper has lots of experience on how to prevent loss of Locos off errant switches that are still in construction mode. Consult with him.


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## KYYADA (Mar 24, 2008)

I would guess the ground in your area is pretty stable: No frost heaves or such. Maybe you don't need concrete, I was reading where one guy used shingles. I think I am going to try it as I am planning on starting next time I'm home. On such a large area you may could use a transit and grade stakes. 

Johnny


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

KYYADA,

Your probably refer to Raymond Manley who has an advanced grade level layout as it applies to shingle rolls. Look up his website by searching for him on this forum. In my area frost heave is real, concrete is out unless I want to rip up my back yard to install the proper construction technique. I'm going with a modified and elevated ladder technique, totally different from Will's layout design. 


Will has a plan and it is good for his particular area I would think. 

gg


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## Andy Stobie (Apr 13, 2009)

I tried this link and it says "Page Cannot Be Found" - does anybody have the photo?


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Sorry Andy, I changed the pics but put them back in place. Here they are again:









First layout design, changed due to space limitations caused by the privacy fence.









The final design, 511 feet of track and 62 feet x 73 feet total.


-Will


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

No spurs Will? No industires to switch along the line? No peddlers freights?


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

LOL, well Dwight that will have to come later. I don't even have enough track to finish the above layout yet. I lack about 180 feet of track yet, but another purchase is at hand. And more to come later, I promise ^^ 

-Will


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

OUCH! Sunburn on my back







but in return I got some more of the layout done. Yipee! So far about 170 feet of PVC layed and a few minor alterations that might need to be made. Below are pics of my progress so far ^^ Thanks for all the support guys, and not to mention the tremendous help. I have purchased the last of the Aristo ties today and now just need to finish with the 8' flex rail. CSX just doesn't pay me fast enough lmao.


-Will


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Will, now I see and thanks for the photos. 

My question is... would garden hose do the same job or was your goal to elevate the reference mark for trenching? 

Great photos... 


Your student, GG


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Thanks GG, the PVC pipe marks the elevation and the track placement. There is more elevation in the yard than expected so I may need to raise the layout up a bit more. Garden hose would do the same thing technically, but it does not act like track does and won't stay rigid or in place without reinforcement. PVC mimics track very closely. I learned that here ;-) 

-Will


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Looking good there Red Lobster...Keep Up the GREAT WORK!!!!! And BTW, NOBODY pays fast enough to build a garden railroad.


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

LOL, Thanks UP. I have nearly completed the second loop. I am about 145 feet of PVC from completing it. 

Note to self: Do not use PVC pipe to determine elevation in the future, it is not rigid or straight enough. Use wooden stakes instead and make sure they are level when you put them in the ground.

For the above reason the elevation is way off but the progress is moving much quicker. I am now just using the PVC pipe to determine the track's path around the layout. The height is not accurate, but it is reasonably close. I will have to make sure the concrete forms and concrete are dead accurate. I'm considering putting forms around the whole layout before pouring any concrete just to make certain it is accurate before I begin pouring. I suppose I could do it a bit at a time. It would be much cheaper as I would only be using one form but I think it would be easier to make mistakes. The elevation of the yard is much greater than I'd anticipated as well so I am having to improvise things. I see what people mean about alot of unexpected creeping up on you. It has, alot. Below are the pics of today's progress, the double main is complete.


-Will


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like you are making great progress Will. Looking forward to seeing it progress. 


Raymond


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Will, I am so relieved that I am not the only one with a need to modify plans as construction proceeds.









Great photos, go to my thread where I am about to create an "excuse and cover-up" for one of my mistakes..... (anyone with brains will be able to detect the coverup) 


You are making me think about twinning my line on the first phase... ummm... 


GG


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Well guys, I am in a really bad mood tonight but I am going to muster any and all motivation to write this thread. I have completed the PVC pipe laying and my layout's skeleton is complete. I have been sick all day but pushed on as much as I could and finally finished. I have one more day off to do something with the layout but I may spend it relaxing. Now you can see what the layout will look like once the track is in place. I hope you like it. Concrete laying is next.

-Will


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Will, 

I am shocked with your speed/progress and seriously impressed with this.. 

Sleep well, get rested.. work to your schedule and most importantly protect your health... and when you have chance... keep your followers on this project informed. 

gg


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Sunburned and Sick, and STILL works on the railroad.....YOU ARE THE MAN WILL!!!! And your progress is very impressive. Keep it up.


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## Terl (Jan 2, 2008)

Will 

The pvc pipe works well for visualizeing where the track will go. In your place I would be inclined to use the concrete subroad bed on the ground but I think that the ladder typed system would be easier for the elevated track. If you use the dirt from a pond feature to build up the elevated areas it will save alot of work and expense bringing in extra dirt. Look forward to seeing your porgress. Also one or two sets of moveable forms should work well for you. No need to form the whole layout at once. Maybe use steel edging for lawn borders would be nice and durable. I think that JJ had a nice system if you search on his name.

Terl


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Thanks a bunch guys, I am getting better but still pretty congested. I'm supposed to be going to the SEGRS this coming weekend too so I have to get better. I'm getting no help from the 'real' railroad though. I just worked 3rd shift last night and am going back in 2nd shift today. At least I get time and a half so I can buy more trains *chuckle*. They are bad for feeding such habits lol. Yeah Terl, I still haven't decided exactly what to do about the raised areas but thought about just building concrete up to that height, and side-filling it so it doesn't look like a wall. Still kind of undecided so all the suggestions are helpful. Trying to find the most practical way to do it. 

-Will


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## dltrains (Jan 2, 2008)

Will,

coming along great. Looks like you've already preplanned for your expansions with pleanty of open area.
One concern on the visual. You planning on making a mountain out of that molehill?









Dave


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

LOL actually yes Dave, I have alot more digging to do and the extra soil is going to end up being the mountain with the tunnel and waterfall. I'm still in the planning stages of the concrete so I am not moving on til I really figure out what I am going to do about the raised areas. Anyone know how long dirt has to settle before you can put concrete on top of it? 

-Will


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## Terl (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirt will settle 20 to 30% in height over the course of about a year or two from water movement and freezing, etc. Or you can whack the heck out of it as you install it. 

Terl


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## dltrains (Jan 2, 2008)

If you scrape down to what you want for your base no need to wait. If you add dirt to raise it used to be thirty days min. You can shorten that wait by tamping in layers and some light wetting to help in compacting. 

Dave


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Will, see my post... think about Brian's ladder then landscape up to track level. 

gg


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Actually, I think I'm going to just trestle the raised area. It will be more expensive but I think in the long run it will look alot better and keep the area more visible instead of blocking the shorter loop. That seems like it would be my best option. 

-Will


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Sounds like a plan


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