# Suppliers.



## bicyclexc (Mar 31, 2010)

I have been poking around on the tubes looking at suppliers for the the garden layout of my dreams. I have reservations about Bachmann, but can anyone make a sales pitch to me for USAT and Aristo-Craft? I have some LGB sets now, some Bachmann and some Aristocraft rolling stock and an AC NYC FA. How is quality of each of AC and USAT locos and rolling stock? Is anything made in the USA anymore? 

Most specifically I am interested in track. From the websites, I like USAT more then AC however, AC makes a 10'Dia turnout which I think I would need quite a few of. 

Lastly, Brass Allux or Stainless for rails? I will be running about 300' of track roughly in a forested moist environment. 


thanks- tMack


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

* http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/beginners-faqs-mainmenu-49/track-choice-mainmenu-50*

Might read my other FAQs also.

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

If you read the various threads on MLS you will discover that all current manufacturers have problems. My engines include: LGB, Bachmann, USAT, Aristocraft, Delton, and Accucraft. I think that Delton (Doozie) and USAT are the only manufacturers that I haven't had to repair myself or send it for repair. So far, I haven't had any problems with the gears on my USAT diesels splitting. Unfortunately, nothing in Large Scale is perfect throughout its production. Fortunately, most of the problems can be fixed. 

The choice of track is really up to you. Are you using track power or not? I started with LGB brass track and over the years added Aristo brass track. I use track power and don't mind cleaning the track when it is needed. My 332 track isn't scale, but I can step on it without any damage. For my layout I started with the Aristo 10' diameter switches. I have replaced them with the LGB 18000 (17' diameter) series switches. For my layout I think that that the LGB switches are better. Fortunately, or unfortunately, this is an individual hobby. Where you live and your specific layout are unique. Talk to people in your area for advice. 

What works for me in Virginia may not be best in your part of the country. 


Chuck 


PS A forested moist environment could be in any state in the country, with the possible exception of North Dakota, Nebraska and Kansas. If you could be a little more specific (by state), someone who lives in that state will probably chime in and get you in contact with local resources who will be able to offer real help and advice.


Just remember that all of the mistakes have been made by those of us who are active on MLS. Take advantage of this resource. If you come up with a mistake that is new, heaven help you, because it is going to be a whopper. Make your questions as specific as possible. Broad or generic questions, for example, "Should I marry a blond or a red head?", will not help you or us. 

It would also help us help you if you mentioned which scale you were interested in modeling: Narrow gauge 1:20.3, 1:22.5 , Pseudo standard gauge 1:29, or Standard gauge 1:32. Or all of the above. I'm in all but 1:32.


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Forums can be a help for beginners, but they are dominated by people, which learned years ago, when there was not much choice, to stick some overseized (Code 332) , ready made brass track together. Until 10, 15 years ago that ws mainly LGB brass track. 

Today there is a tendency to use lower rails, made from non oxidizing materials like stainless steel or Nickel Silver. There is also a trend, to use sleepers suitable for the railroad and the scale which is modelled. A pseudo-standard gauge modern diesel on vintage Swiss metre gauge somply does not look too convincig. And yes, you can step on lower track as well, if that is what you are aiming for. 

Below you see Code 250 rail on European sleepers, backwood ties and nailed to wood on Ozark tie plates. 











Some examples of different ties. Top row: wooden light railway ties, European conrete tie , metal ties 
Bottom row: different scales, 1 : 32, 1 : 22,5, 1 : 20,3 










For the pictures I used German Code 250 stainless steel rail made by miha-modell plus sleepers made by miha-model, Llagas Creek, Bertram Heyn. There are plenty of more makers on the market meanwhile. So it is recommended, to read a Garden Railway Magazine every once in a while. Most makers have advertising there. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I just gave a seminar in York on that topic that included all the necessary details on track choice. Some of the following is influenced by my personal experience.

1. Code 332 or 250 or 215
I had much better operational stability outdoors with code 332 than with code 250 (not even to mention code 215). While 250/215 is more prototypical for one with the 10' rule you wouldn't see it in your garden. I choose operational stability (e.g. less interference with crusher fines that popped up, less chance of bending by someone accidentally stepping onto the rail) and for the wider choice of suppliers for this track code.

2. Plastic, Aluminum, Brass, Nickel plated Brass, Nickel Silver, Stainless Steel (in sequence of increased price).
For dead sidings, display shelves, or battery operated plastic is a good choice. So far our customers have reported good durability of the plastic rail, but I have to say that I didn't step on it either (have to do that test when I am home). Aluminum's oxidation (takes only seconds) eliminates Aluminum to use for track power (analog or digital). It is also the softest of the metals so if step on is concern it might be ruled out for several reasons, for one plastic track is 1/2 the price.

When going to track power Brass is the best conductor, but it oxidates over time so it requires cleaning. Depending on the climate you are living in this oxidation can happen within 4 weeks. The rail get all around a nice tarnish (looks almost like rusted rail) and you have to use a track cleaning piece of rolling stock (locomotive or electrically powered track cleaning freight car with rotating brushes) of manually clean the track with a pad.

Nickel plated track is 20% more expensive but it combines the best of both worlds high conductivity with little oxidation so other than wiping the track you will be always good to go.

Nickel Silver however oxidates but is a good conductor as well

Last not least Stainless Steel has only 1/10 of the electrical conductivity of Brass and is even more expensive than Nickel plated. And while I had to personally experience that there is no such thing as maintenance free the next sections of my layout will no longer be laid in stainless steel but in Nickel plated. 

If you don't mind the extra cleaning of the track then Brass is the best choice.

As far as track manufacturers go, we offer ProTrack from a German manufacturer (you find this on http://www.train-li-usa.com/) with the choice of Narrow gauge ties (11 ties per foot) and Standard gauge ties (14 ties per foot) in you choice of color for the Standard gauge (brown, black, concrete).

If you choose brass then brass composition matters. There are cheaper material s on the market but a customer reported that on a Christmas layout the brass had that quickly deteriorated that after two weeks all rolling stock derailed and they had to re-buy all the rail.


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## bicyclexc (Mar 31, 2010)

Thanks for the inside experience. I live in Maryland so I am pretty close to Chuck. I am going electric but have not decided traditional or remote controlled yet. I will be modeling in 1:29. The scale of the ties/rails should look close, but it isn't a keen worry of mine. I would like to err on the side of a robust strong track I can step on also like Chuck suggested. I anticipate cleaning and now I am 98% sure I will go with brass track, probably Aristo since nobody has flatly warned me to head for the hills instead. Thanks for the swift replies and good info. I am all ears to anything else I may need to know.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

tMack, 

I'm also in Maryland and I'd send you a message about a meet in April but you have blocked them. (You could send me a message with your real email or change your settings.)


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Last not least Stainless Steel has only 1/10 of the electrical conductivity of Brass and is even more expensive than Nickel plated. 

That´ s pure propaganda of the anti stainless steel liga. 1 / 10 th, that would be only 10% of the conductivity of brass. Who are you trying to fool? 96 - 98 % in relation to brass would be the correct figure. 

I don# t know the USmarket too well. But at least in Europe Code 250 stainlesse steel or pure Nickel Silver is much cheaper than 332 Brass or 332 brass, nickel coated. Needs much less material. 

Have Fun 

Frit & Juergen


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

If you are going to be running only one engine at a time there are several ways to go with remote control. I use both the Bridgewerks power pack with built in remote control and the Aristo Train Engineer which plugs into a 10 amp power supply. Both of these regulate the power to the track.

I prefer the Bridgewerks. This is because the Train Engineer has a built in momentum. The amount of momentum can be adjusted, but not eliminated. I just don't like momentum. I want my trains to stop and start where and when I want them to, not at some predetermined rate. I also have the Bridgewerks remote that is plugged into the back of a Bridgewerks power supply. This works fine for speed control, but it does not reverse directions. This is a feature that I do not like and I would not have bought the unit if I had known of this.


If you are planning on running more than one engine on the same track at the same time you will have to go with some form of DCC. I know nothing about DCC so this is where my advice on powering your strain stops.


If you are building your empire on the ground, plan for adequate drainage. On my first railroad in Denver drainage was never a problem. So when I build my new one in northern Virginia I didn't think about it. Now all the leaves, mulch, and pine needles wash onto the track after a heavy rain. If I had designed in a gully it would have helped.


Chuck


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Dear Fritz: 

Ain't fooling anyone I suggest that you look up the facts: 

http://www.tibtech.com/conductivity.php 

Every metal is listed there, it is easy to use and it clearly states that Stainless steel's conductivity is ~ 1.3 (1.6 depending on which composition) versus Brass ~15. If this isn't 10% then I don't know it.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 31 Mar 2010 10:53 AM 

If you are planning on running more than one engine on the same track at the same time you will have to go with some form of DCC. I know nothing about DCC so this is where my advice on powering your strain stops.


Chuck 



No intention of picking nits but this is actually not true--you can run multiple engines on conventional DC--I did it for years using the old aristo 75 mhz system. You set the track to say 20 volts, and each loco gets a decoder. You could do this with the new REVO system as well--set the track to a constant voltage and install a receiver in each loco.So you cna have track power, and remote control, with multiple locos on DC. Neither one of those systems is a DCC system. 

You could also use conventional DC track power, and send DCC signals over the air--the QSI/Airwire system does this. 

I concluded that it made more sense for me to just go to conventional DCC on the rails. But you can have track power and multiple locos without DCC


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike:

I thought that by adding a decoder you were using a form of DCC. My comment about one engine was limited to speed control from the power pack.


Chuck


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Well, over here in Europe, we might be a bit strange. We can read, understand and can use formulas , but instead of believing what the brass track dealer writes, we simply try ourselves. 

In 2003 some folks in Germany assembled a few hundred metres of Code 332 Stainless Steel track for a world record. http://www.buntbahn.de/modellbau/vi...&postorder=asc&highlight=oberlungwitz&start=0 

They fed 20,6 Volts to the track and measured 19,6 Volts 300 metres / 900 yard further down the track. Try that with your brass track and see what you get. 

Around the same time, Axel reported in that German forum about his LGB brass track as beeing useless, unless heavy cleaning work is applied. 
He favoured his 300 feet of Aristo Code 332 stainless steel. Meanwhile he is a brass dealer himself and delivers anti-steel-track propaganda in a public forum. 

BTW, I do use a few metres of stainles steel track, but personally prefer Nickel Silver rails from Tenmille, Sunset Valley or Peco. Not nickel plated brass, but the real pure thing. The nickel plating of my former LGB track wore off quite fast. 


Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

1. Code 332 or 250 or 215 
I had much better operational stability outdoors with code 332 than with code 250 (not even to mention code 215). While 250/215 is more prototypical for one with the 10' rule you wouldn't see it in your garden. I choose operational stability (e.g. less interference with crusher fines that popped up, less chance of bending by someone accidentally stepping onto the rail) and for the wider choice of suppliers for this track code. 

I've got to disagree with this. I've been running code 250 outdoors since 1996, and running code 332 outdoors since 1980. I have yet to encounter any debris-related derailment on my code 250 that would have been avoided on code 332. It's a myth, plain and simple. If you've seen photos of my railroad, you know I've got plants growing between the rails, ballast piled against the rails, any number of potential hazards. It's all code 250 and things run very smoothly over it. 

I'll agree that larger-profile rail (of identical material) offers more resistance to bending if accidentally stepped on, but if your track is laid on such a loose foundation that it gives to that extent when you accidentally step on it, you've got bigger issues than just rail choice. Again--the notion that code 250 is this weak, "can't handle abuse" material is utter nonsense. 

Later, 

K


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Most specifically I am interested in track. 

You may also want to have a look at the 3m (10') lengths of LGB rail--the prices are reasonable plus you have nice long sections to work with for graceful bends. Having the long sections also reduces the number of connections to clamp. You can buy them in tubes then you buy the flex ties by the box to go with them. As far as brass vs stainless vs nickel silver I can only say that at my place it's the rain spash, sap, twigs etc that need cleaning off the most so I'd still have to wipe the track no matter what the type, and I find cleaning the track a very minor issue. Compared to the time I would spend dealing with charging/swapping/checking/replacing batteries etc., it's far less. I run track power wireless DCC by the way and it's been the greatest thing I've ever done at our place. 

Keith 

Keith


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

I also have to disagree with the code 250 detractors. I have had code 250 in parts of my Garden even Longer than Kevin's yearly notation. With the cost of track in general going out of sight, using code 250 , which has far less metal content, and thus costs far less makes simple sense. There are 2 code 250 suppliers that make their rail foot wider than the others and thus stronger than the other 
250 makers. Lower cost per foot, excellent scale appearance, sufficient strength for outdoor use, high quality smoothly operating turnouts available in 250, that are reliable too, there really is no downside to 250 . If you absolutely must have an area of 332 so you can run a lawn mower or wheel barrow over it without fear, than 250/332 transition clamps are readily available for the few feet you choose to use 332. It is time to upgrade from the old ways sometimes. 35 years ago code 100 was all you found in HO, no nobody does that anymore- to enhance scale appearance. Using code 250 in the garden does the same thing, and costs less as well. 
jonathan/EMw


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I've had code 250(SVRR) for 15 years and no problems. Looks MUCH better with your trains, they look a LOT more real and less toylike.


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

You may also want to have a look at the 3m (10') lengths of LGB rail--the prices are reasonable plus you have nice long sections 

I wonder, where I can have a look. Maerklin / LGB never offered any 10 feet lengths. LGB of Nuernberg did, until they went bancrupt a few years ago. 











Have Fun 

Juergen


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Fritz if you want to come visit Canada, you can see an unopened tube of them in the tube in my basement, or recently laid ones on my expansion . They came just last fall through Walthers/Maerklin/LGB, and although they were never listed, I believe they are still available- Item 10006 for rail, 10003 ties. 

Keith


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Sounds good. But I know, how LGB track looks. Some people will be happy to learn, that there is a source for it in NA. I´d probably ge suspicios looks, if I enter the plane with an bundle of 3 - Meter brass track on my back, 

From my place (Germany) I can get Sunset Valley Code 250, 2 Kilometers away and Llagas Creek / miha modell Code 250 6 Kilometers away. The steel track is available in 10 feet lenghts there as well. Unfortunately I mainly use Peco 32mm NG track, which I get by mail, for a modular layout the moment. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Fritz you are funny guy and as a writer for a magazine you know the art of manipulation. First of all when presented with the physical facts you don't address the facts but immediately try to discredit on a personal level, just to make your point.









When years ago starting to build my layout the LGB track cleaning loco wasn't available and online gurus like you promoted Stainless Steel as the holy grail. The test pieces of track that I had put out with LGB brass tarnished to a degree of non conductivity that my DCC didn't reach my locos anymore. I choose in the promises of maintenance free layouts stainless steel track with stainless clamps. Now years later (in particular last year) my "so perfect" layout broke down and didn't function any more (at least in 50% of the laid track). After investigation it turned out that conductivity problems arose on more than 50% of the rail joints, as well as I had problems arising already 2 years ago when I complete my last loop that I had DCC communication problems, prompting me to do further research. Resistance plays a factor in signal distortion in DCC so the conductivity plays a much quicker role.









My advice is based on personal experience not on the materials we are selling, because we are selling all 3: Brass, NI, and Stainless Steel and since we have the same markup I quite frankly don't care on the revenue basis what people buy. But I do care to communicate my experiences to others and let them come to their own conclusions. If I had to do it all over again I would personally not choose to lay stainless steel. Its only value preposition is "maintenance free" and I can tell you that it is not so. As a matter of fact the few brass joints left in my layout lasted as long as the stainless steel joints and I didn't even apply anti corrosive paste to them. The advantage of Brass that I saw all along, once tarnished and on the top cleaned, some brands (not all of them tarnish) resemble closer rusted rail and look and feel that you could only achieve with spray paint on stainless steel.

And since you tout a cost advantage of code 250 rail over code 332 it is quite obvious that Brass is cheaper than NI plated than stainless steel - I (for myself) can't any longer justify the use of stainless steel going forward. And in this decision ways the cost/benefit analysis a big role.

And now to the question of code 250 or 332 (which is not influenced by our offering since we offer now code 250 Brass, Nickel Silver and Stainless Steel) it is about stability. I said earlier in this threat that code 250 look close up more realistic than code 332 and even more so does code 215. I know a few purists that lay code 215 and their stomach would turn at code 250 - let alone code 332. I have learned to accept (and I am a rivet counter when it comes to detailing my rolling stock or making my buildings) that code 332 has better operational stability in many aspects including accidental stepping onto the rails. And I have a few left over code 250 (switches and crossings) in my layout where crusher fines create quicker a problem than on the remaining layout. If I wouldn’t use crusher fines than they wouldn’t have a problem (is my guess).

In an educated society everybody can make a decision based on facts and experiences. And the longer you live the more experience you have. And based on these experiences I can make new decisions and give different advice. And my experiences don't change even if you try to attack me.








You are more than welcome to come over here and see for yourself.


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

you are funny guy and as a writer for a magazine you know the art of manipulation 

Actually I received money from 19 different publishers last year. That is my profession. None of them payed me for manipulating the readers. 


Resistance plays a factor in signal distortion in DCC so the conductivity plays a much quicker role. 

That´s part true. If you want to use the rails to transport a DCC signal, you mainly need clean track and perfect rail joints. The signal does not care for the Code of the rail. Not an easy task on a garden RR. That is why some makers prefer to send signals via RC. 

online gurus like you promoted Stainless Steel as the holy grail 

That´s propaganda and not true. Given the choice between brass and SS, I´d still buy Stainless Steel for outside use. I sold every meter of brass, have some SS track, but my favourite material is Nickel Silver (Peco, Tenmille) 

And the longer you live the more experience you have 

Some people never quit learning. 1989, when the first LGB loco, a Mogul, was given to me, I did not know much more about electric trains, than what was written in the LGB catalogue. Meanwhile my knowledge about model trains improved slightly. But I am still learning and still enjoy to play with my trains. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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