# size of silver and lead (or gold/lead) ingots



## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi.


I model Colorado in the 1880's ;naturally for that period there were a lot of smelters etc in use in Colorado.

Can anyone tell me the size of the ingots of silver & lead or sliver/gold/lead that the smelters produced before being further smelted to extract the individual metal please?

There is a photo in the Denver Public Library (& book 1 of the Mineral Belt that shows Weston (or Platte) depot with a pile of ingots outside it.

Here is a luink to it 

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/25609/rec/1 

That seems to give an approximate size of 22" long x 3 x 5" deep?

Yours Peter


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Gold ingots were smaller than standard clay bricks as they were very heavy. Silver ingots could be larger and easily match the 5x22 size you referred to. Historically Spanish Galleon wrecks have given up silver ingots over twice as large as that. They would actually remove the stone ballast in their holds and replace it with the ingots.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Peter

That I imagine would vary all over the place depending upon era and whether you're speaking of cast ingots or coined ingots, but here is some modern day information on the subject.

Wikipedia - Gold Bar[/b]


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Peter: You might try contacting the library at the Colorado School of Mines in Golden, Colorado. I remember reading somewhere that the silver ingots were specifically cast very heavy, in excess of several hundred pounds. This was done to prevent theft. I agree with Steve, it could vary from smelter to smelter. The product from the final refining most likely was a standard size. 
Chuck


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, thanks to your question Peter I've once again have learned a lot more than I knew before you asked it.









First off, the proper term for what you are speaking of is a *Mine Doré Bar*, which is the output from the smelting of the ore (i.e. raw or concentrated). Since the percentage of gold in the specific ore will vary all over the place (i.e. anywhere fro 60-90%) excluding the associated impurities. The resulting bar size (i.e. based on weight per bar (Troy Ounce, Kilogram)) of the *Doré Bar* will vary also. Another variable that will set the size of the *Doré Bar* is the capability of the refinery that the bars are being sent to, which relates to the cost, health and safety concerns that are imposed by larger bars. Anyway, it seems that most modern day refiners process *Doré Bars* weighing 15-18 kg (33.069-39.683 lbs.) per bar.

Just for a size reference a U.S. Federal Reserve bar is 7"x 3.65" x 1.75" and weighs about 31 pounds, but do remember that is refined gold.

Hope the above is at least found to be of interest if not of help.


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi All,


Thank you for all the replies

Steve - I don't know where you found that, aren't the resultant bars small! The web led me to a short 'How its done' video on making them at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX3eqpbbx6I 

Interesting the native silver ore is darker than the finished product. this silver (+ other metals) is the make up of the bars I am thinking about.

The modern versions are evidently much smaller than those in the photo of Platte station.

A distilled version of the replies seems to be that allowing for 'lifting and moving' the bars can be any size within reason, (depending on the percentage of silver-v-lead and other metals), and that there was less knowledge available in the 1880's, 
assisted by Denver Public Library digitized photo collection.

Meanwhile back at my desk some are being made from common or garden plastic (!!) no Alchemist here though - they ain't worth anything! Except to me that is.

Yours Peter.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Peter

Here are some of the links that I ran across on the net.







Using various search terms e.g. gold bars, dore bars (Doré Dore), gold bullion, et. etc.

Gold Bars Worldwide (PDF)[/b]

Newmont Mining - Basic Ore Processing[/b]

Gold and Silver Metallurgy[/b]

Idaho Bureau of Mines and Geology c. 1932[/b]

Physical Dimensions of Gold Bars[/b] 

Google - Image Search - Gold bars[/b] 

Using your estimated dimensions for the silver bars in the picture (i.e. a rectangular shape 22" long x 3 wide x 5" deep), and using the respective densities of gold (i.e. 19.282 g/cm3, 24 karat gold grade) and silver (i.e. 10.5 g/cm3, fine grade .999 (99.99%)), which likely neither would actually be of the refined grade.









The silver Dore bars would each weigh = 125.20 lbs. (imp./avoirdupois) - 182.588 lbs. Troy

If the bars were gold instead each would weigh = 229.92 lbs. (imp./avoirdupois) - 335.302 lbs. Troy


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Steve,


Thanks for the links - very interesting, especially some of the charts: 

My bars are supposed to be part refined, but still needing separating into their respective metals; as you say pure silver etc is heavy, thus small sizes for those bars.

Ragg's to Riches sell some small bars to represent 3 different scales and metals; they are only 0.35 x .060 x .080 very small which in O scale would be, in scale 6" x 4" x 3" and in FN3 thus 8mm x 5mm x2mm actual size. That 8mm I think should be about 10mm from the first photo below using a rough approximation from the left hand figure. Ragg's do not have a G scale version.


There is a photo on the web of a stack of silver which is a close approximation of the final silver bars, at http://fineartamerica.com/featured/stack-of-silver-ingots-granger.html

and also a Leadville mine view of pigs of silver (un-refined ?) at http://www.leadville.org/files/12-silver-bars-large.jpg - these are the style that I am making.

What would we do without the web!


Finally here is a quick super close-up photo of the large impure bars and the tiny pure version - from photos off the web. The pure versions are very small!, the others have a bit of size - made from a piece of styrene, and a bit of tune with the
ends filled in and the lower sides of the tube also filled in to a concave curve that is much less than otherwise - after all its meant to be metal! 

The large one is 30mm or 1.125"










Yours Peter.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

_"What would we do without the web!"_ Hehehe, remain mostly STUCK in the ruts we dug for ourselves.


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Steve 


Possibly, it all depends on attitude I think.

For me , I would not have all the models and more to come that it has allowed me to build, with the help of a vast number of others who have all assisted, and I hope continue to do so; all the assistance has been gratefully used in many ways.

Of course you are also included in the helpers for which I am grateful









Yours Peter.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I bet you could tap plumbers solder with a small hammer and get the dull metal look of air cooled silver. 
Uncoil a length, hit it, cut to length, dress ends with a file. You want an upside down bread pan profile. 
Lastly use the ball pein to lightly suggest cooling dimples on the wide face. Tap the ends too to soften file marks

John


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey John

Now there's a neat idea, and if you had a lead knife you could cut the lengths at an angle and not need the file.

Another idea, maybe you could use a dovetail bit to cut groves across a narrow length of close grained wood (some type of fruit wood?). Then cut the sides at the correct angle and glue piece to close the ends, thus making a gang-mold and mass cast the bars.







Then if needed, use methods used on lead came in making stained glass windows to add any patina needed.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

At many mine smelters they used sand molds to cast ingots. They would use a wooden form to press into the sand for the shape. Tapered sides let the woodblock slip out of the slightly moistened sand. 
If instead one used plaster, you could get several impressions made before it set. With a torch you could drip the plumbers solder into the holes, gently press molten solder with a wood block to help it into the corners. Then the next.... 

John


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By peter bunce on 01 Dec 2012 09:26 AM 
Hi Steve 


Possibly, it all depends on attitude I think.

For me , I would not have all the models and more to come that it has allowed me to build, with the help of a vast number of others who have all assisted, and I hope continue to do so; all the assistance has been gratefully used in many ways.

Of course you are also included in the helpers for which I am grateful









Yours Peter.
Peter

Maybe I misunderstood what you said originally, or maybe my cryptic reply didn't come across as intended.









Anyway, all I meant was that without the Internet the vast amount and broad scope of information that is available to each of us because of it, wouldn't be. And we would be limited greatly, because of the time required to follow any line of investigation into a specific subject that had arisen as a result of our modeling quests. Not to mention the very real likelihood there could be a high monetary burden incurred traveling to the various physical locations to review the information that may or may not prove to be useful to our purpose at hand.

To be sure the absence of the Internet would also curtail the breadth of our far-flung global pool of acquaintances we all currently enjoy. However, it is my belief that the camaraderie and willingness to help fellow modelers achieve their goals, stands quite apart from the Internet, and would remain intact with or without the Internet, the only difference would be the group each of us could draw upon would be a bit smaller.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 01 Dec 2012 08:04 PM 
{snip...}[/i] If instead one used plaster, you could get several impressions made before it set. With a torch you could drip the plumbers solder into the holes, gently press molten solder with a wood block to help it into the corners. Then the next.... John

I like your idea better.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

peter, i dont have an answer 
but i know that photo, from one of my books, perhaps florence and cripple creek-or South Park Line-cant recall precisely 

anyway, what i do recall of relevance is that ingots and sacks were very very heavy, to dissuade being run off with by no goods- 

i recall sacks being around 200lbs 
and i agree with your estimate of size in your first post-
presumably a guess from the photo, which is from the mines in park county
which would likely make those pictured ingots, maybe 100-120lbs+ each


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi,

Thank you to all who contributed to my question, especially Steve C who is a web trawl expert! All was most interesting.

Ass I suspected the final result was going to be small, as the real thing was both heavy and valuable.

So I fiddled about and used up some scrap from my capacious collection and made some multi metal (not fully smelted for the individual metals) bars – very like pig iron in general detail, on the much smaller silver ingots.

The bars are in 5 bar units and are 1 and 1/8” long a piece of Sintra board 5mm wide and 3mm thick makes the base, and a bit of scrap tube for the semicircular section top. Glued together, with some filler in the ends of the tube, and at the join of the two bits, then they are painted a good silver color.

The (pure) silver ingots, being more valuable and heavier are much smaller , at a whisker over 5/8” long and being 3/16” x 1.8” in section, slope the ends and stack them up with glue; when dry paint them. I think the sides were sloped but I did not add that as it seems to be very slight, though would have made them easier to remove from their sand molds.

Here are some photos with a ‘Fine Folks’ figure – who is absent from his normal location as boss of my Steam Donkey guarding them, and providing a comparison.

The bars are 29mm square the height of the 5 sets of bars each of 5 bars each, is 23mm high; the ingots are 15mm square, and 40mm and 25mm high respectively. 

Quite easy to make but a bit of a time consuming exercise! But I think that more of the bars will be added soon to make up a better collection. 


I have not made any full sacks of the crushed (en route to the smelter) ore - that will be done soon to complete the trio. I have not yet worked out a size for the sacks.










all of them with a 1/20.3 scale rule for size; its a bit close up with normal viewing distance the faults are not obvious. So they will be dealt with - more filler needed!y










A slightly higher view










and lower down - the figure means business with that spanner he has!


Yours Peter


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Peter

As usual you did a great job of duplicating in scale what you needed, well done.


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