# Tentative steps...



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey again,

I'm about to take the plunge and order the NCE Pro Cab system (thanks all for your advice, I owe everybody a beer!), and I'm NOT going to bother you with the vast topic of which decoder to buy.

However... 

No point in getting that NCE system, if I can't convert at least one engine. So. Given the choice of the following, what's a good one to start & learn DCC with?

- LGB mogul
- Bachmann 2-truck shay
- Hartland 'Big John' 0-4-4-0

- Hartland 4-4-0 

I have a couple BH Bachmann Annie's, but I'm not sure if I want to make the conversion investment on those.

George S., thanks so much for your article on decoder comparison. BTW, you've sold me on the Digitrax DG583S (in the absence of late breaking insights you might have).

FWIW, I'm reasonably good with electronic assembly and model-making. Sometimes even reading directions. 

I'd love to experiment with sound, but I can't find a QSI or other board that can be easily integrated with the Digitrax board. Also, they're not exactly cheap... are there cheap add-on sound boards? Probably not...

Anyway, thanks everyone in advance for your advice and admonition,

===Cliff


----------



## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, 

Look @ these decoders from Digitrax.. 
http://www.digitrax.com/prd_mobdec_dh465.php under $60.. 
http://www.digitrax.com/soundbug.php under $50.. 
Both are cheaper here http://www.acculites.com/ 
Hope this helps.. 

BulletBob


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

note that these parts are available for WELL under, about $47 for the DH465 and $40 for the SFX004 

$87 for a high current BEMF decoder and a competent, although somewhat low audio power sound decoder is not a bad deal.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

In answer to your last question, there are indeed cheap add on boards, but they don't sound as good, so you get what you pay for. 

The best bang for the buck in high quality sound is usually the combination decoder, motor and sound together. 

In addition there is another factor, when they are combined in one, then you usually get the advantage of the sounds changing under load, not just changing with speed. The QSI, Zimo, Massoth, ESU all do this. 

Just a few more data points, not trying to change your mind. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

The easiest way to get into DCC is with an Aristo Craft yellow box engine and a QSI/Aristo plug and play DCC control and sound board.
You will have great, fully customizable digital sound, and DCC motor control for about $125 and 10 minutes of install time, nothing else is easier or faster to do.

Ron


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would completely agree, although right now QSI's are hard to find. None of the 4 locos listed are Aristo. 

So, other options are probably better now, not easier, just more appropriate. 


Greg


----------



## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Ahh I misread his post I thought he was looking for the easiest way to get into DCC. He wants to convert one of his current engines to DCC. 
I would probably go with the big john loco then, lots of space there, and the lgb moguls a real pain to do.

But with the prices on some Aristo yellow box diesel engines, (at trainworld,Ridge Road Station, and RDL Hobbies) I would still buy an Aristo and the QSI board. 
Wouldn't be that much more, much less if you count the time it will save you doing the install, PLUS you get to add another engine to your railroad









Ron


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The LGB mogul comes in 3 different versions, one has a 3 wire motor block and needs the motor separated from the track pickup in the motor block. Then you must verify the quartering. 

Other 2 are decoder ready, that is the motor blocks have 4 wires, but older ones have a discrete power board and the newer versions have a fine etched circuit board with surface mounted components. 

Not a good choice for the first conversion, plus the mogul is no fun to reassemble. 

So, the Hartland engines would be the easiest.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Well, that DH465 looks pretty good. I suppose that... 
...their not mentioning G gauge (only HO & O) isn't relavent? 
...the 4amp rating is ok? (the Big John has 2 motors, so I don't want to smoke a board I put in there; not sure what its stall current is) 
...the lower function count (2 vs 8) will be lost on me anyway 
...though the Soundbug blurb didn't mention PNP compatibility with the DH465, but the latter's lit says it is, so that seems OK 

You're right George, nice little package for about half the price as the QSI Magnum. So you aren't sticking with your DG583S fav here, but I guess that's because there isn't a ~cheap sound card for it, right? 

Anyway, this is all pretty exciting; thanks everyone for all your help!! 

===Cliff


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The DG583AT (3 amp) decoder is plenty for a 2 motor Aristo loco. The DG583AT will drive a 4 motor Aristo loco. Digitrax only makes the screw terminal decoder in the 5 amp capacity. Note that on the DG583S, the screw terminal version, the WHITE and YELLOW headlight wires are reversed. It's a long sad story, don't ask....just reverse the wires. 

The DH465 ought to be good for a large scale loco but I have not tried it. It's a very new decoder and all my locos were converted before it came out. I might try it on the PCC if I get one. I found a good PCC sound set on the internet and it sounds pretty good. 

The SFX004 is indeed a piggyback add on board, but it's basic sound set is not because it is a piggy back. This is the same hardware and firmware used in almost all Digitrax sound decoders, integrated or not. They produce good quality sound but they are not loud and the sound sets are not complex. However, with some considerable difficulty, entirely new sound sets can be created and loaded into Digitrax decoders. 

There are three issues with Digitrax sound decoders that could use improvement. 

1) Volume, they say a watt. That is the slimmest watt that I've ever heard. The SFX0416 is the weakest of the lot. Any of them need an amplifier to be really useful out of doors. 
2) The steam chuff is fine at low speeds but sounds odd at high speed as the chuffs shorten so much that the thing sounds like a machine gun. 
3) The sound could be better coordinated with movement. It is possible to use a cam for the chuff or set the chuff or to program it so that it will do about 4 chuffs/turn. With programmed chuffing, it will sometimes get out of sync when the speed changes quickly and it may continue to chuff once or twice after the loco stops. It does all right on articulated locos using the cam and a chuff sensor on each engine.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the tips George, and the continuing education. I sure appreciate it. I would have never guessed about the wire swap!

Regarding the weak sound, how tough would it be to integrate one of the ~$6 amps that Dave Bodnar describes. To quote him:
*The easiest solution is a 2 watt mono amplifier that can be purchased from: 
**[url]http://store.qkits.com/more...2*[/url]* for less than $6.00. * 

*...At full volume, either of these amps will drive a good speaker with enough power to be heard across a very large outdoor layout!* 
Quote is from Dave's article:
http://www.trainelectronics.com/art...AVoice.htm

Dave, or anyone else, have you tied one of these (something like them) into the output of a DCC sound decoder? Seems like the result would still be about half the price as integrated systems, and perhaps better in volume?

On a related note. I put an email in to NCE this AM about this, but since they haven't gotten back with me and since you guys are quicker than lightning, I'll ask here. An Ebay / Internet dealer (Greenhouse Garden Supply) selling the NCE PH-10R starter kit says it (or at least their version) comes with the NCE D408SR decoder. Does this decoder come standard with that system (regardless of vendor), or did they add it in? The pic on NCE's site shows something similar, but they don't mention it*. If it's included, I'll put off getting something else for now, at least for the learning stages. 

Also, and this is off topic as usual, GGS (http://greenhousegardensupply.net/Default.aspx) sells Train Line 45 track / switches. I thought Axel was the sole distributer for those in the US; is this another of his businesses? Or...?

===Cliff

PS, I notice that GGH offers the Quantum Magnum for $160. 
PSS, since GGH has neither phone number or email address on their site, their offerings seem a tad iffy to me... 

*NCE's online literature kinda stinks!


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

It looks like this would work, I ordered some to try them out. 

You'll need a 12 volt regulator in addtion to this kit, us an LM7812 or equiv. 

Try http://www.litchfieldstation.com/xcart/product.php?productid=999003201&cat=0&page=1 

price listed is $663 for a 10 amp radio system


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ha ha! I thought you were saying that it would cost $663 to make the $6 amps work! As in 3 6's, less 3? Something just shy of an "antichrist decoder" arrangement?









But thanks for the link (to the PH-10R vendor), looks great. Have you ordered from these guys? My guess is Yes. I wish they'd say if it came with that decoder though.

Makes sense about the regulator, because we would be feeding the amp ~22v otherwise. Thanks for looking that up.

However, though I see their LM7805c, I can't find the LM7812. Is it from another vendor?

Best regards,

Cliff


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I buy most of my DCC stuff from Litchfield. 

the LM78xx family has several members. The xx is the output voltage. The 7805 is the most common. Just Google for LM7812. 

Be aware that the NCE system DOES NOT include a power supply. This is where the Meanwell supplies, or others, come in. Digitrax doesn't include a power supply either, it's an add on. I use a 22 VAC 15 amp transformer to power my NCE booster.


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff

here ya go.

LM7812[/b]


----------



## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 28 Dec 2010 04:04 PM 
Thanks for the tips George, and the continuing education. I sure appreciate it. I would have never guessed about the wire swap!

Regarding the weak sound, how tough would it be to integrate one of the ~$6 amps that Dave Bodnar describes. To quote him:
*The easiest solution is a 2 watt mono amplifier that can be purchased from: 
**[url]http://store.qkits.com/more...2*[/url]* for less than $6.00. * 

*...At full volume, either of these amps will drive a good speaker with enough power to be heard across a very large outdoor layout!* 
Quote is from Dave's article:
http://www.trainelectronics.com/art...AVoice.htm

Dave, or anyone else, have you tied one of these (something like them) into the output of a DCC sound decoder? Seems like the result would still be about half the price as integrated systems, and perhaps better in volume?

On a related note. I put an email in to NCE this AM about this, but since they haven't gotten back with me and since you guys are quicker than lightning, I'll ask here. An Ebay / Internet dealer (Greenhouse Garden Supply) selling the NCE PH-10R starter kit says it (or at least their version) comes with the NCE D408SR decoder. Does this decoder come standard with that system (regardless of vendor), or did they add it in? The pic on NCE's site shows something similar, but they don't mention it*. If it's included, I'll put off getting something else for now, at least for the learning stages. 

Also, and this is off topic as usual, GGS (http://greenhousegardensupply.net/Default.aspx) sells Train Line 45 track / switches. I thought Axel was the sole distributer for those in the US; is this another of his businesses? Or...?

===Cliff

PS, I notice that GGH offers the Quantum Magnum for $160. 
PSS, since GGH has neither phone number or email address on their site, their offerings seem a tad iffy to me... 

*NCE's online literature kinda stinks!











Cliff - FYI, I tried amplifying the small Digitrax SFX004 sound unit with one of the amplifiers mentioned in the article referenced above. I used the last one in the article where I cut a stereo amplifier kit into two independent mono amps. The sound volume was increased dramatically. It is still no match for a top quality sound card but it is much louder, especially when used with a large speaker.











dave


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I've been experimenting with the DH465/SFX004 combination in a Bachmann Thomas loco. I replaced the stock speaker with a 2 inch speaker mounted facing up in the cab. Volume is fine for me outdoors--not great, but perfectly fine. I have a bunch of QSI card, which have WAY more volume than I need. I usually set them to about 25-30. The 465/soundbug is not too far off from that at full volume. It's a simpler sound card and fine for the use I'm putting it to, which is a train for kids. Modifying the sounds is supposed to be easy: it's not. I generated a "thomas" whistle that sounds like the one in the TV series, but I've had no luck at all loading it.All in all, I'd say it's not bad for well under 100 bucks. But QSI is worth the extra money. I'm about to install a second DH4665/soundbug in an old LGB loco 

The DH465 seems to be more sensitive to dirty track than QSI cards, but runs well otherwise. 

The NCE powerpro system comes with a single decoder, the 408sr.


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

When using the LM series of voltage regulators, be sure to add in the small ceramic filter capacitors as these eliminate noise/oscillation and are very important. 
And if the current is not stated, then the 7812 may be 1/2 amp, not a 1 amp unit. 

Go to nsc.com for a spec sheet and where to add capacitors, and stay away form the 79 series negative regulators as these fail in a short mode and tie the input to the output. 
Never had a problem with the 78 series with this.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for all the additional info, gentlemen. 

I just got off the horn with Larry at NCE, he confirms what Lownote just said. So I'll mess with that for a first go. 

Not sure if the Soundbug can be made to work with the 408SR? If not, I'll just get the DH465, and maybe add in that amp either way (thanks Dave, George and Dan). 

Regards all, 
Cliff


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The SoundBug is just a sound only decoder with no functions. It can be connected directly to the same track as the motor decoder. It doesn't have a reduced track voltage requirement so that it should work on large scale track voltages ok. I have used the SFX0416 and SFX064D in large scale with high track voltages. 

See link to make them easy to program 

http://www.girr.org/girr/lamrs/lamrs_dual_decoder.html


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Looks like a great article George, thanks. 

You just answered the question I was afraid to ask: whether the sound board interpreted DCC signals independantly, or relied on (semi-proprietary?) function outputs from the motor decoder.

After an hour of trying to look it up myself and failing, I just decided heck with it -- too much going on at once. So, I just ordered both the DH465 & SFX004, with the PH-10R system, from Litchfield. 

Woo hoo, I made a decision at last! Now I gotta get a decent soldering iron, so's I don't melt the bloody thing right off the bat









Off to order the Meanwell unit first though...

Thanks George and everyone else for all your help in this,
Cliff


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg, 

I see that you recommend the Meanwell S-320-27 on your site, but I've also read that the 24v version is recommended by Lownote here. I was about to hit the order button on the -27, but thought it might be a good idea to get a sense of pro's or con's either way, if any. Is it a difference between DCC and track power approaches?

(In the really-off-chance that you made a typo on your site, I seriously tried to see wherever else you mentioned a p/n, but couldn't... no offense!!) 

Thanks,
Cliff


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The difference is the top speed--27 volts will allow your trains to run faster. The NCE unit puts out less voltage than it gets in--so if you want to run your trains at 24 volts, you need more volts going in. I don't run my stuff very fast and don't need the extra voltage.


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

MPJA.com has a 24v12A supply for $43 pn 18436-PS , soldering station for $14, pn 15860-TL. 24 VAC iron core 10 A transformer for $19 pn 7846-TR


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I emailed a complete answer... you "lose" 3 volts between input to the booster and output. 

An NCE booster puts out between 20 and 21 volts, unmodified. 

Greg


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Excellent, Greg, Lownote, and George.


Does NCE modify it for 24v out as a standard option, or is that a 3rd party thing? If the latter, and since I'm modeling the V&T (mainly moguls; ca. 1890), the slower top speed isn't a big deal.


Thank you all,


Cliff


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

It's not clear to me if the 24 v option is standard or not. 

My track runs fine at 19-20 volts, as I don't really need to have anything run faster


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliff emailed me privately, so I responded. 

It is not a standard option, and you need to call them and ASK them to do this. The charge was minimal. They want to be sure you know what you are doing, since some decoders won't go much over 20 volts (Tsunami / Quasinami and others), and you should also think about if you need it or not. 

Your stock light bulbs that run from track power may burn out quickly, I found that marker lights in Aristo steamers seem to be 18v, they go pretty quick. Remember you are in the land of constant power, full voltage to lamps all the time from the rails. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

And Greg straightened me out privately, after which I responded almost instantaneoulsy with an order to Jameco for that Meanwell 24v power supply. Like a Really Big Dog. Whoo Hoo! 

Got George's soldering station comin', WITH solder AND extra tips. Got the Digitrax board and Soundbug in the mail, thanks again George, and -- main thing -- got the NCE package shippin' too!

Thanks to all of you!! Happy New Year, and pop a cork or cap [see my original post] for me, because I'm finally understanding how this gig is going to play, and you've all made it happen!

===Cliff

PS, sorry for going over the top here , but these have been rather exciting moments of decision making , and, er...


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

You'll really enjoy it--it's a lot of fun


----------



## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, 

Don't forget that you can run the lights @ half voltage by hooking the lamps to 1 rail or the other.. HO & N guys have been doing this for a long time.. 

BulletBob


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Bob, it's not really half voltage. It's half duty factor UNLESS somebody activates address zero and runs an analog loco. Then it could get to more than 80% DF and toast the lamps... or go to about 20% DF and the lights go really dim. That depends on the direction that the analog loco is running. Provided that analog locos are not in use (that command station function should really be turned off on systems that support it) THEN it looks to a lamp like half voltage.


----------



## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

George, 

I think that Digitrax is the only DCC system that supports zero stretching.. 
Will have to file your post so I don't have a "that was a dumb thing to do".. 

BulletBob


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

NCE used to do it way back when I believe, also System One. I also believe that some of the German systems still do, and I also think that some of the early MRC systems did. 

I'll have to research. It was a big deal a while back, when adding sound and motor control would mean $400, now it's $150 or less. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

In any event, zero stretching is a kludge and it really shouldn't be used. For a Digitrax system, it can be disabled by setting the command station OpSw #20 to "closed". That is easiest to do in Decoder Pro. Under the LocoNet tab, select Configure Command Station. 

Further, analog conversion of decoders should be disabled by clearing bit 2 (value of 4) in CV29. The default for CV29 would be 6, set it to 2. For 4 digit addressing, it would be 38, set it to 34.


----------



## MrDCC (Dec 27, 2007)

Hello, all - 

Just got up to speed on this thread. Have more time now to devote to things like this, now that I've sold Litchfield Station! A few points mentioned on this thread: 

Aristo installs: check out the info on my web site: http://www.mrdccu.com/install/g/Aristocraft_C-16.htm 

Zero stretching: supported by Digitrax and Lenz - perhaps the only ones amongst current production. Yes, George, it is a kludge. 

NCE Power House Pro 10 amp system: I like it a lot - will be the control system for my RMP (http://mrdccu.com/layouts/RMP.htm). However, coming up with an adequate power supply is tricky. The best bet is http://www.litchfieldstation.com/xcart/product.php?productid=400002 which was designed for the NCE system. It places a huge strain on the power supply, as the system is capable of supplying 30 amps for 1/4 second and about 60 amps into a dead short faster than any short circuit protector can act! 

Meanwell 24 volt power supply: don't know which one Greg is recommending. I've known Greg for years and respect his abilities. I'm not certain that anything short of the (expensive) 20 amp unit will work with the NCE 10 amp system, due to what I mentioned in the above paragraph. Greg, would you like to weigh in on this? 

Track Voltage: Greg is the only customer in the 10 year history of Litchfield Station that has gone for the high voltage option from NCE. Personally, my trains run just fine with my PowerCab at about 13 volts on the track. But, I'm in 20.3 and they don't go very fast! VBG! 

There is probably more, but that should stir up some hornets!


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well... I'm running an 11 amp supply into the NCE. I have been able to trip the booster "breaker" but I know it will run over 10 amps before it trips. George says closer to 20 and I believe him. 

The problem is that I don't want a dead short of, say 15 amps, to continue. So my philosophy is to use a power supply that won't exceed the continuous power dissipation of the booster, and I know I'm pushing it because I'm giving it 27 volts in to get 24 out. 

My idea is to use programmable circuit breakers on different power districts and let them trip around 10 amps, and not rely on the NCE booster to trip. I like how the DCC Specialities PSX-xx series works and can be "tuned". 

Yeah, the 24 volt to the rails came about because with 20.5 to 21 volts on the rails would only result in a scale 65 mph with Aristo E8's... after getting close to 24v on the rails, I got 92. These are passenger locos, and when you take into account what few smph you will lose when speed matching, you have to be able to go over 65. 

Yeah, in most cases, the 24 volts is not necessary. But I wanted the capability of prototypical speeds, even if my passenger trains top out at 70. (I don't run them that fast all the time). 

Regards, Greg


----------



## MrDCC (Dec 27, 2007)

Greg - 

That all makes sense. If you don't mind tripping the PS breaker occasionally! VBG 

The PSx series is a great product, IMHO. Plan on putting heat sinks on them. The instructions say to do so above 10 amps. However, with the higher voltage, I believe in prudence and it ain't expensive! I can't remember if you have some of the current hog USA locos where you need the 30 A starting current or not. What I don't know is how the PSx would react to that jolt. 

I did want to share the current info about the NCE 10 amp booster - I believe it, as I was told it by Jim - the designer and owner of NCE! 

Keep running!


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, although I am considering putting heat sinks on the NCE booster to let it handle higher currents and stay cool, the box itself is not a good enough radiator.

On the PSX-AR, I'm way ahead of you:










I've even got the sonalert, ha ha!..

Greg


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

This is kinda over my head, what with zero-stretching and NCE boosters that don't look anything like I've seen, but I really want to thank you George, Greg, and everyone else for helping me see my way to the DCC / NCE solution. I ordered the system from Litchfield, I now have it, and am looking forward to setting things up with a test loop and my first loco! 

(Gotta get thru the tax returns first though; and some honey-do items; but after that, woo hoo!) 

Regards, 
===Cliff


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My mistake, I labeled the picture an NCE booster, that is my DCC Specialties PSX-AR autoreverser with the optional heat sinks and sonalert "speaker" to indicate an overcurrent situation. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Roger that, Greg.
I hope I order the proper reverse-loop management modules correctly, I need three of them... Didn't imagine audio signals coming into play. Actually, I didn't imagine an overcurrent situation coming into play. 
Always something to think about, and learn from! Should I care, for my first build, or can I let these factors slide for now?
===Cliff


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The audio speaker is just an alert if there is a short... optional. The autoreverser also incorporates a "circuit breaker". 

Buy the DCC specialties unit, the best and a good price. Easy to use, just 2 wires in and 2 wires out to isolated (reversing loop) track. You can power it from the rails anywhere. I think it's $45 or so. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Will do, Greg. Thanks very much for the clarification and advice.


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Cliff, zero stretching is a way to run a RTR non-DCC loco on a DCC system. 

The DCC waveform is symmetrical when averaged over a long enough time so that the DC component is zero. DCC uses a sort of square wave with varying period. Short periods are a logical "1". A long period is a logical "0". The traditional "high" and "low" voltages that are associated with digital signals have no relevance here. The digital signal is coded in the timing, not the polarity. There is no spec on how long is "long" so that if the logical "0" is stretched, the DCC waveform becomes asymmetrical and the result is a DC component. The logical 0 can either be at the positive or negative polarity so that it is possible to get a net DC component of either polarity. A DC motor will see this and run. 

HOWEVER, the DC motor ALSO sees the AC component and tries to run forward and backward at almost the same time too. This chattering causes a highly audible buzz from the motor. It is drawing current on each of those pulses but not moving so it is, in effect, stalled. If left on a track at zero speed, it will draw current and not go anywhere. The current is not as high as the true DC stall current as the inductance of the motor limits the high frequency AC current, but it still draws enough current to heat up more than it would if it was running on pure DC. This heat, and the alternating AC field that is interacting with the permanent field magnets can cause some magnets, particularly ALNICO ones, to weaken over time. The high intensity ceramic or rare earth magnets in more modern motors tend to hold up better. 

There are other drawbacks with zero stretching too, but this is the major one. 

As a normal practice, zero stretching should be avoided.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks fpr that explanation George. I think I actually get it. It's good to know, however, that I should avoid this technique. I will!
Best regards,
===Cliff


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg / George / all, 

Based on the inputs (and great education) here, I purchased the Meanwell S-320-24, which has a 24 VDC output. So I was going to hook it up, and was reading through the NCE instructions. But I may have a big problem. The manual says this, on the Quick Start flap: 

"BE CAREFUL. The maximum input voltage to your PH-10 or PH-10R is 22 Volts AC. Voltages higher than 22 Volts AC will ultimately destroy your booster resulting in an expensive repair charge." 

And on page 14, it gives this dire warning: 

"A booster that has been 'over voltaged' will result in catastrophic booster failure and void the warranty (we can diagnose and determine if this has happened)." 

So I guess I screwed up in two ways... but how? Is there a mystery switch on one component that makes the other happy? Or maybe it's somehow a non-issue? 

FWIW, my PS was pre-switched for 240VAC input, so if you get a new one you might want to check that before connecting it to anything. 

Thanks gentlemen, 
===Cliff 

LATER EDIT:

Just saw the diagram showing the lettering on the front face of the booster, which says "22VAC/32VDC MAX." Didn't see in on the actual box, because the connector covered it. OK, so I guess I answered my own question, that it'll take either; I'm surprised!


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The specs for AC and DC are different. 22 VAC is rectified inside the booster and filtered. In the process, the DC voltage generated is the same level (minus 1.5 volts for the rectifier drop) as the PEAK of the AC, or 30.8 volts. The resulting internal DC bus voltage is about 29 volts, enough to damage the booster.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for that explanation George. I think I understood most of it, once I realized that by "specs" you weren't referring to a need to special order a booster intended for DC input. 

I was sort of thrown earlier, because we had the conversation on this thread about needing to special order from NCE a booster that could handle 27v (I assume dc, because that was the Meanwell product under discussion), but here, my standard unit it says it can handle 32vdc max. 

Ah, maybe that special-ness (in regards to the 27vdc input discussion) is in regards to the booster output. Because mine has a max out of 18v (per the manual), and Greg wanted to bump that output up for his larger consists. Am I wandering near the truth? 

Speaking of output, the manual also says that I need to open the unit to adjust an internal pot, if I want that max output voltage. I suppose that makes sense, because the same system serves other gauges which can't tolerate it. Please give me a shout if I'm misunderstanding things.

Back to booster input, from what you say George, it sounds like I'm fine with the 24vdc input from the Meanwell. In theory, I could have saved you guys a bunch of time in explaining things to me, and just ordered the 27vdc PS, and that would have been fine too. Could you confirm that? Sorry for being such a worry wart, it's just that I have such a low batting average with assumptions electronic. 

===Cliff


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

you need to special order the booster to get more than 23 volts or so OUTPUT no matter what the input voltage is (assuming that it is high enough). The booster is also a regulator. The adjustment sets the regulated output voltage or a limited range, the special order booster has a wider range. If the input voltage is higher than necessary, the booster will drop some of it to set it's output voltage. If there isn't enough input voltage for the booster to actually regulate, it will do the best it can and drop 3 to 4 volts in the process. 

Your 24 volt Meanwell will allow you to get 20 to maybe 21 volts on the track. There is probably an adjustment in the Meanwell to tweak it's output over a limited range too. You may be able to nudge it a little higher than 24 volts if you need to. 

I have an older NCE booster that has a switch on the front that sets the output voltage. You get either 16 volts, which is typical for HO, or the "adjust" position which is influenced by the internal adjustment. It would appear that NCE has dropped the front panel switch and leaves it in the "adjust" mode all the time. I simply turned up the internal adjustment until the track voltage didn't rise anymore and left it. My input voltage is 22 VAC.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks George! 
As always, you give a lot of wonderful background knowledge and education, I really appreciate it. 
I'll hook 'er up!
Best regards,
===Cliff


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The max DC input on the NCE booster is 27 volts DC.. 

The NCE drops 3 volts from DC input to DCC RMS output. 

No need to tweak the Meanwell, you won't get over 21 volts from an NCE booster unmodified. Most come out 20.3 volts. 

Read my site in the NCE section on how to adjust the NCE for max output. 

I told you before to order the 27 volt one I believe. 

Greg


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Greg. Yes, you explained the 24 vs. 27 input volt difference, and the drop across the booster; and thanks for that. 

My recent issue was based on a misunderstanding, in that it seemed (according to NCE's manual) that my unit could only take AC, and that I thought I'd mis-ordered or something. 

I'm sure you can tell how ignorant I am about electronics. But from my point of view, as a customer, it would have been a good thing for NCE to state in the manual that DC is an acceptable input (the unit's lettering says 32VDC max). They might have said that just before they warn one about very expensive repairs resulting in going over 22VAC, and that they have ways to find out whose fault it was, etc. 

But it's all cleared up now.

Best regards,
And thanks for your site and all the work you put into it, it's such a great resource; and I'll definitely read your NCE section (I must have overlooked it in your menu),
===Cliff


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think the manual could be improved, as I remember it, they specify AC or DC input, but only specify the max input in AC volts, which could be misleading. 

Yep, they have not reworded the manual in some time. 

Always better to be safe than sorry. I'll check my site to make sure this is clear. 

I updated this page, read "Tips for Best performance, powering the booster"* [url]http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/dcc-battery-rc-electronics-mainmenu-225/dcc-mainmenu-29/specific-manufacturers/nce-equipment-mainmenu-30/procab-mods-a-tips*[/url] 

Thanks, Greg


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Just wanted to say thanks again Greg, I've been reading through your NCE tips. 

Your output voltage adjustment comments are very helpful. Your other stuff will be, as I gradually wade into the pool.

Also, I've been scanning through Mark Gurries' presentations on DCC, thanks very much for including that link.

===Cliff


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg, 

that mod you made reads great. For us non-sparkies though, may I suggest adding a third point:

*3. Though the NCE manual (version 1.1.07) gives dire warning against exceeding 22 volts, says absolutely nothing about DC input, and shouts that when you return the unit because you "over-voltaged" it and they will know that it's your fault because of certain internal circuitry they won't tell you about, and the repairs will be hugely expensive, be aware that they are speaking strictly of AC input in this warning. If you decide upon a DC power supply as I* [meaning you, Greg]* am recommending, be aware that the NCE booster accepts up to 32* [or is it 27?] *VDC perfectly well. It's smart enough to convert the* [blah blah blah].* Indeed, the silk screened lettering on the booster case declares the fact, and the internal circuitry accommodates it. Unfortunately, NCE hasn't gotten around to updating their fricken' manual. So trust me, and don't have a heart attack over having ordered the wrong power supply when you go to hook things up.*

I'm sure you see that this is all tongue-in-cheek... but it's nice to be able to vent in a friendly way...

===Cliff


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, when I started out, I asked a lot of questions, and noticed that you COULD use DC, but had to call Larry at NCE to be sure. 

I'll read the manual and see if I can help more. Hopefully people will read my site and believe me... if not they can always call, but a misleading manual is indeed a bad first step and advertisement! 

Anyway, now that you "got your mind right" (remember the movie "Cool Hand Luke"?), you should be on easy street. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Greg!


----------

