# Need advise on new 16 X 20 G layout



## Blk69 (Dec 6, 2009)

Hello all. I am new to this forum. My father has asked I help him build a new layout for his G scale trains. My experence with trains is limited as 20 years ago I had HO and O scale layouts (with my Dad). My dad is getting older now and is having trouble bending down and keeping his balence. I offered to build him a new layout so he could continue to enjoy his trains (has not been as active with them ove the last few years). Maybe some of you have has similar experence and can offer some advice.

I have reviewed some post on this forum and gotten some good ideas. If anyone has some time and desire to layout a new railroad, I welcome their ideas. Please excuse me if I do not use the correct terms. I am planning building a "Table" type layout. Basically I am planning on building frames of 2X4's with stand alone supports (table legs) and then connecting them all togather (using a 1/2" plywood on top of 2X4 frames). This will allow the layout to be taken temporary down should this ever be needed (some track may have to be removed, but modular sections will allow easier break down). This layout will be in the basement and planing to to be around 38" in height. The deminsions I am thinking are 16' by 20'. For access to the center of the layout,I need the center open. Basically I am planning on leaving a 4' access on the middle of one 20' side and 4' acess long the middle (making a letter T in in the board). My father does not want any sections that fold or hinged to allow access to the middle. This is why I am planning the "T" access to the board. Think of the layout as a letter "O" with a 4' section cut out to get into the middle. The back section of the layout will be 6' X 20'. The sides of the "O" will be 4 X 4. The front section will be (2) 6 X 8 sections. For the front I could shift the cut out portion making one side bigger if needed (could move the access all the way to the corner to make an "L" also). I has thought of adding a elevated track to the layout as the track takes so much space, but not enought lenght to have ramped track. May have dedicated fixed elvated track in back, not sure at this time.

We are planning on having one track dedicated to wrapping the permiter. A second track would run inside this. I would like it to allow for some switch and be more "fun" for my dad to operate. We may add a third line elevated.

We are planning on doing the fabrication over Christmas. Any ideas, sketches, etc would be greatly apprecated. Hopefully we can build something really special and get my Dad and his Grand children envolved in a common hobby.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok...first off, it sounds like you are planning to go with the 'headknocker' or 'duckunder' approach to get to the sections in the middle. Given your dads problems, I have to really strongly recommend against that. If you have to go with the 'duckunder' approach, I'd recommend raising at least that part of the layout by at at least a foot, preferably to around 4.5-5 feet. *Much* easier to get under. 

Second, are these tables going to be up against the walls of the basement, or they free standing? (room enough to walk clear around the outside). This gets into the 'reach' issue, because the width of the tables you are planning, even with the center access points, there will be some parts of the layout you cannot easily reach by hand. The rule of thumb is the most annoying problems always occur at the spots that are the most difficult to reach into. For most people, the longest comfortable 'reach distance' is about three feet, give or take a a few inches. Four feet is just barely doable. Hence, no part of the layout should be more than 3-4 feet from the edge of a table. 

Third, what equipment is he using? The larger locomotives and other rolling stock often require wider diameter curves (8 foot diameter or even more). On the other hand, there is a great deal of equipment that will handle R1 (four foot) or R2 (five foot) diameter curves quite nicely. If you can get by with the smaller diameter curves, you could probably do something other than the 'round the room' loop you appear to be envisioning - a folded dogbone type plan, for example.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

2x4 construction is probably too heavy. 1x3 or 1x4 is plenty strong enough and half the weight. 

I do not follow your plan very well. If you want access to the inside with out a liftout or duckunder, then you'll need to restrict yourself to a folded dogbone to allow access between the end loops of the dogbone.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

that is, what i am doing indoors on 40 x 16 foot


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Korm - Looks like your back to the multi-level approach. 

I must say - I really like that 'climbing bridge' deal you got going 
to get between levels.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

This will allow the layout to be taken temporary down should this ever be needed 
Good plan. I did the same and was eternally grateful for the forethought when we moved! 

The back section of the layout will be 6' X 20'. The sides of the "O" will be 4 X 4. The front section will be (2) 6 X 8 sections. 
My only comment is that 6' wide boards will be tough on his back. We used to reckon that 4' was the maximum width and that assumed access from both sides. 

You are presumably thinking of something like Kormsen's "lower part", a 'folded dogbone' (as it is known) witrh curves adjacent to the opening. You might consider thinning the back to 4' x 20', and slimming down the sides of the front.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

six foot against a wall is a strict "no, no" for me. even now, with only 57 years, a "reach" of more than three and a half foot ist too much for my belly. 
in former layouts i had access holes in a broad layout. but whom to send in there, when the daughters will have left the house? 

this is the right side of my connection between the two levels. it is 60 cm / 2' deep. that is enough for three lines of track and some sparse decos. 










concerning the benchwork - 2 by 4 seems to be a bit of overkill to me. 
i just use the structures for metallic shelves. with them i form open squares of 3 by 3 foot. 
inside of these squares i will screw some upright "ribs" using cheap ceiling boards. 
on those i will put the right of way from 1/2 inch plywood and landscape made from plywood, wiremesh, plaster, foam and what else falls into my hands. 
(the only disadvantage i see - while i got a powersaw for wood, i have to saw the structures by hand)


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

A suggestion, make the left loop bigger so that the track is near the edge of the table and wrap the "triple" track around the corner some to make it longer. 

Alternately, if there is table without track near the edge, cut the table back to make more people room and bring the trains closer to the people. You could cut back the edge on the left so that there isn't a 4' reach just to get to the track. The area on the right could be cut back too on the inside with the track routed to be closer to the other track.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

George, now we are highjacking Blk69's thread. 
the plan is very sketchy. on the left will be a harbor. the track will be inclined, to make room for the water "above" the track (on the plan). 
the right side will be divided down the whole length by a background, so that it is a double length - half width landscape. 

look again, changed plan for better understanding


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

oops. Kormson, I didn't realize that you weren't the one that initiated the thread....your plan looks similar to what he proposed.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

My indoor layout, now dismantled, was 10x20, benchwork was 1x4s and a plywood deck and was more than sufficient to take me standing on it. I would suggest keeping it low enough to be convenient to work on, mine was 40" high, 48" to me seams maximum without having real issues putting in scenery, picking up a heavy engine or doing track especially away from the edge. For access to the center aisle I would use a hinged lift-out section instead of a duck under. The lift out can be a bridge or just a 2x6 with track on top. Hillmanns and Split-jaw both have railjoiners specificly for lift-out sections, this is far more convenient than bending your back into a pretzle.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

exactly, George. that's why i posted it here. 

victor, he mentioned, that his father does not want something hinged, and is too old for a duck-under.
so it's either a shuttle line, or a dogbone.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Blk


Another thing to think about might be whether or not you father might end up using a wheel chair, a walker with a seat or just need to sit. While 36-42 or more inches in height works great when you're standing, your father won't be able to see much if he needs to operate the trains from a sitting position. A 30" table height might be a good compromise.


Good Luck with this project and keep us posted as you go.


Randy


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## Blk69 (Dec 6, 2009)

I know those of you with older father will find this hard to believe, but mine has changed his mind. He now wants to build a layout in a 19 X 15 room. His basement has around 9' ceilings and he want to build the layout at around 5.5' above the floor. He wants to build a 2' elvated platform all the way around the room and a small 3' X 4 platform in the center of the layout (all these platforms would be at a 2' elevation). This will allow him access all the way around the layout (he standing on a 2' platform so the layout is around 40") and access to the center. He would slightly duck to get under the layout and pop up in the center. He will have about 4' of layout to duck under before he pop up. He has had my mom measure his height several times to get the exact heigh of the track (minimize the duck height as possible). I think it is going to be a real head knocker!

This new plan is more like a donut in shape. It looks like I will have to fabricate basically a false floor in addition to the table top layout. I will post some picture when we are done. This is turning out to be a larger project then I thought.

Thank you for sharing your layout plans. Are there any good web sites we may get some more ideas from (that have scaled plans)?


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

I know those of you with older father will find this hard to believe, but mine has changed his mind. He now wants to build a layout in a 19 X 15 room. His basement has around 9' ceilings and he want to build the layout at around 5.5' above the floor. He wants to build a 2' elvated platform all the way around the room and a small 3' X 4 platform in the center of the layout (all these platforms would be at a 2' elevation). This will allow him access all the way around the layout (he standing on a 2' platform so the layout is around 40") and access to the center. He would slightly duck to get under the layout and pop up in the center. He will have about 4' of layout to duck under before he pop up. He has had my mom measure his height several times to get the exact heigh of the track (minimize the duck height as possible). I think it is going to be a real head knocker! 

That is a valid, if material heavy way of getting around the 'duckunder' problem. From the sound of it, he seems to be thinking along the lines of a two or three foot deep shelf running clear around the room, except (hopefully for where the head banger (duckunder) is. It seems to me that his raised platform, properly designed, does not need to go clear against the wall, just up against the outer table legs (though that could lead to issues with getting at stuff underneath the tables...hmmm..) I don't really see the point to the platform in the center of the room unless he intends some sort of 'center peninsula' type arrangement - which he should have room for. 

This is turning out to be a larger project then I thought. 

It always is. I've rebuilt my benchwork four or five times since starting and several other folks here - including a number of those posting on this thread - have done the same. 


As to the track plan, given the space he has to work with, a varient of Allans 'Gore and Daphied'(?) (essentially a loop and a half along the walls with a long spur) might be something to look into.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

if the door of the room in question opens outwards, you might ask your father, what he thinks about a duck-under at the door. 
then he could make an elevated (5' to 5'5") as an two foot shelf around the walls. 
with a second duck-under that could be connected to a "centertable". 

that would mean 15' wide = 2' shelf + 3' raised floor + 5' x 9' table + 3' raised floor + 2' shelf. 

or, without a second duck-under the centertable could be a kind of tongue reaching out from the shelf to the middle. (makes the center table 12' long. for a station)

anyhow, good luck!


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Blk69 what is the planned front to back depth of the elevated train platform around the perimeter? Too wide and you or your dad will have a difficult time reaching the back of the platform closest to the wall. And I was not clear about the purpose of the platform in the center of the room - for 360 degree viewing only? 

Al


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## Blk69 (Dec 6, 2009)

The new layout will be the shape of a donut. There will be access all the way around the donut and you can pop up in the middle. I have to build a false floor so you can get low enought to go under the train board.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm... 

He now wants to build a layout in a 19 X 15 room. His basement has around 9' ceilings and he want to build the layout at around 5.5' above the floor. He wants to build a 2' elvated platform all the way around the room and a small 3' X 4 platform in the center of the layout (all these platforms would be at a 2' elevation). 


The new layout will be the shape of a donut. There will be access all the way around the donut and you can pop up in the middle. I have to build a false floor so you can get low enought to go under the train board. 


If I am following this correctly, then, the size of the room is 15 feet by 19 feet. Access all the way around means the layout will be at least two feet smaller in each dimension, or 11 feet by 15 feet, which is not very big, especially for large scale. Could go with 4 foot wide tables (except for the duckunder end, you'd want that to be narrow - no more than a foot or so). That makes the interior space three feet wide by ten feet long. 

Hmmm...unless something specific prohibits it, given the sheer amount of space G scale stuff can take up, you really should try to talk him into a two or three foot wide shelf running all the way around the edge of the room, except for the duckunder part. That arrangement would allow for a center peninsula, which proprerly done would give him an extra thirty feet or so of mainline. As it is, trains longer than a few cars will seem somewhat absurd; the engineer will be blowing the whistle for the destination end of things before the caboose is all the way out of the point of departure.


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

19 x 15 does not leave a lot of room for a center peninsula if a center "observation/command" island is desired. Take a look at this quick layout I concocted using 30 inch wide platform all the way around the room. The design utilizes 8 ft dia curves on the outer loop (plus a few larger radii at the top of the dwg); 6.5 ft dia. curves on the inner loop; and a 5 ft dia plus a 4 ft dia curve section for the switchback stub at the inside upper left corner. If you imagine a peninsula at 12 o'clock or 3 o'clock, it would require maximum 5 ft curves to access it and it could only be a stub yard - in and back out. 











It's not a donut but it fits in the room.
Al


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Al - I was thinking of R2 or R3 curves throughout. Hmmm...assuming 30" deep shelves all the way around, with the 
peninsula coming out of the long wall...he might be able to get away with a 7 by 7 foot peninsula. That and a 
crossover at the 'neck' where the peninsula meets the shelf would be just enough for R3 (6.5 diameter) space 
eating loop to put a bit of distance between stations...but it would wipe out the center observing platform. If he
was willing to accept a tighter aisle and narrower shelves along the one wall, he might be able to make the center 
peninsula just large enough for 8 foot diameter curves. Going that route, though, would create 'reach' issues 
for the center part of the peninsula - might just go with static scenery there.


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Excluding Piko's new 45mm track assortment, I always referred to R2 as 5 ft dia and R3 as 8 ft dia (the approximate dimensions of LGB track) then yes this layout can handle those. I use Aristo-craft as my library here because of their 6.5 ft dia curves - a bit better than R2 for a mainline loop (the inner one). But if the locomotives and rolling stock are kept short (with short trains), then it all can work well and look good too. This revision adds your 7x7 ft peninsula but I cannot get any commercially available crossing (LGB or Aristocraft) to work with the available sectional track curved angles. I need a 45 or 60 degree crossing and neither company makes it. So I made the U-loop inside the peninsula. This now restricts the inner loop to 5 ft dia (R2) curves so short rolling stock is a must for good operation and appearance. Your observation about the center of the peninsula being hard to reach is true. It would be the ideal location for a town.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Al...for whatever reason, I had another thought on this: suppose the center peninsula were to come out of one of the 'end' (narrow) sections. Also suppose you were to go with 6.5 diameter curves and use a 90 crossover for the space eating loop. I think this could work, but you'd end up with a bit of a squeeze between the wide part of the peninsula and the wall sections - but maybe they could be narrowed six or eight inches there. 

(Dang idea just popped into my skull out of the blue - gunna have to do something about that).


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Personaly I'd doing nothing more than a 2-track mainline with the largest curves that would fit, Say 14' & 12.5' diameter so you can run the big stuff with ease. You cam always fill in the center with the small curves for little trains and have a switch to get out onto the mainline.


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Chucks_Trains on 24 Dec 2009 06:15 PM 
Personaly I'd doing nothing more than a 2-track mainline with the largest curves that would fit, Say 14' & 12.5' diameter so you can run the big stuff with ease. You cam always fill in the center with the small curves for little trains and have a switch to get out onto the mainline.









Chuck I tried Aristocraft 12.5 ft and 14 ft curves in the 19x15 ft space (using RR-Track) and it r-e-a-l-l-y looks boring. There's not enough room to do anything much other than two very short concentric ovals. I found this not to have enough straight track to cut in switches and run any sidings, not to mention so little room left for sidings anyway. Also the big curves cut off the corners of the room and put them out of reach unless the platform is eliminated in the corners such that the operator can duck under and then stand up in each corner to reach into the layout.

Take a look - see what you think:


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## Blk69 (Dec 6, 2009)

Quick update. 

To say me and my father do not see eye to eye is an understatement. I had come up with a layout similar to the ones listed in this thread. Thank you for your input. 

What we ended up doing is quite unusual. I am in the process of building a 11 X 14 layout with a small 36" X 41" access area in the middle. To access this middle, I build a false floor the under the table top layout, leaving an area open on one side (down to orginal floor level) to allow my father to duck under neith the table top. We used 3/4"plywood funature grade (expensive) witha 2X4 frame. It is a little overkill, but there is NO sag! Table hight varies from 27" to 43". I do not like the table heights, but built this layout per my fathers request. I will post pictures when complete. 

Additional. For those of you who don't know, you can only install 1 3-way dimmer on a lighting circuit. I didn't know this and after some time (long time) of head scratching have come to this conclusion.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Must be four foot wide tables at the 'sides' and six? foot to either end. Good god, did you point out the 'reach' issues to him about that? Even accessing from the outside... 

Still, I look forward to seeing what it looks like and how it turns out.


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Blk69 on 04 Jan 2010 05:09 PM 
Quick update. 

To say me and my father do not see eye to eye is an understatement. I had come up with a layout similar to the ones listed in this thread. Thank you for your input. 

What we ended up doing is quite unusual. I am in the process of building a 11 X 14 layout with a small 36" X 41" access area in the middle. To access this middle, I build a false floor the under the table top layout, leaving an area open on one side (down to orginal floor level) to allow my father to duck under neith the table top. We used 3/4"plywood funature grade (expensive) witha 2X4 frame. It is a little overkill, but there is NO sag! Table hight varies from 27" to 43". I do not like the table heights, but built this layout per my fathers request. I will post pictures when complete. 

From your description it sounds like reach may be an issue, but you will be the best judge of that. 


Additional. For those of you who don't know, you can only install 1 3-way dimmer on a lighting circuit. I didn't know this and after some time (long time) of head scratching have come to this conclusion. 
Actually they make special master / companion dimmers to use in special applications such as your 3-way circuit. Lutron Maestro(™) series has just such a setup. Google it.


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## dmunseyjr (Feb 16, 2008)

How about a WYE on the penisula?


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## dmunseyjr (Feb 16, 2008)

I played around with your plan and added the wye - but - I can't get it to load. Here is a link to my suggestion.


http://myflyertrains.org/gallery/al...t_with_wye

Enjoy!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Whadda 'bout a flat Tahatchapi loop in the center, you could broaden the approach curves, have the added detail of a diamond crossing and room for a town and perhaps have sidings inside the loop with switches next to the crossing.... 

I can relate to not seeing eye to eye with Dad....story of my life! 

John


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Last post from the OP was January, I dont know if he's still looking for ideas. With no updates or progress pics I still dont know exactly what he had in mind for a final layout.


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