# A little disheartened...



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Hi Everyone

Not sure if I am allowed to make a thread like this, and I swear, its not a dig at anyone at all, or to cause fights, but as my title says, I'm a little disheartened, mostly at 2 things, firstly, and foremost, being new here I'm not sure I have a much of a say, but not being new to forums or clubs and I have been involved in a lot, I'm quite surprised at the arguments and quite harsh comments that are made on here. Considering that this is such a small forum community compared to some of the other forums I belong to, such as IT, RC, Paleontology forums. And to make it worse its quite often as I have seen, over minor things, opinions on products and/or actual factual statements. It surprises me even more as this is considered a hobby for the mature minded person looking for a quiet and relaxing hobby.

I hope it doesn't come across aggressive, I have been in hobbies that seem as though they would be aggressive, RC cars especially, but these issues are actually quite rare, from what I could see. It shocked me today (Australia, its 7pm here as I type) that I saw nearly every post into threads were highly sarcastic or harsh against people in some way.

Now the second reason its disheartening is that for someone like me, a beginner, seeing this is very off putting, similar to RC airplanes there were at some points some older members of the RC world who did not want to help new comers, and its a very big on going discussion on the 2 biggest hobby forums in the world.

All I guess I'm saying is that theres no need for these arguments, constructive criticism, opinions can be given nicely. It just makes it hard for new comers, like me, and especially younger people say in their teens or even younger. If you have a problem with someones opinions on a product, I feel there is no need to come down in a flaming storm, a simple statement that you have not had that issue would suffice, and if you have another opinion on a particular subject then would it be better to just state it and with an open mind understand both opinions maybe wrong, right or either.

Maybe I could summarize by saying, theres a million wrong ways to do things, but no real right way!

Sorry again if I sound like I'm causing problems, and its not aimed at anyone as I haven't gotten to know anyone yet. Just trying to help a forum that could be a great place for new and experienced a like to learn from each other, me included because I'm lost as can be!


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

There is a still a great deal of help to be found here. I generally try to ignore the things you're are talking about as much as possible.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Wayne:


I agree with Lownote. 

Every person and their railroad is unique. No single approach if applicable to all people and all railroads. There are advantages and disadvantages to all power systems, method of laying and connecting track, scale, manufacturer, etc. Start slowly and see what others have done in your part of the world and ask them why they did what they did? Any power system other than analog track power is an added expense. My recommendation is to go that way and get your feet wet. As long as you don't have a lot of engines, you can convert in the future when you have a better idea of which direction you want to go with power.

I have been in the hobby since 1980 and still use analog power in most situations. Over the past few years I have added battery to three of my engines. This is mostly so that I can take them to other layouts that do not have track power. 

In my case I would rather put my money into engines and rolling stock that additional controls. My railroad is simple and I do not try to run more than one train at a time. I can have up to 3 trains out on the layout, but 2 are on passing sidings where I can turn off the power. My mainline and two passing sidings all have an on/off control. So that one of the passing sidings can become the mainline when necessary.

When things get a little noisy here on MLS, try to filter it out and remember that it is supposed to be fun.

Chuck


----------



## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Like all Forums, you take whats useful to you and forget the rest, If " History tells us anything " All information is good but use only what you need.


J.


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Part of the problem is that MLS has existed here for 13 years but only the last four are accessible. All of the archives were effectively "lost" when the site changed over to a new... server? format? (whatever....) The info is supposed to be still there... if you know what you want and whom to ask for. Unfortunately, this doesn't help the newbie that has just found the site. 

What does this have to do with the incivility you have experienced here? Part of the problem is that your (quite reasonable and expected) questions have been asked and answered at least 30 times! It's gotten to the point that the "old-timers" are tired of answering the same questions over and over. This is no excuse!! It's just an unfortunate reality. The reason that I brought up the whole lost archives bit is that eight years of these questions with really in-depth answers are now gone. We, as the "old-timers," need to remember this and act accordingly.

Another fact is that, while the hobby continues, large scale is in a period of decline. A sizeable number of MLS members are either out of the hobby, have morphed to larger scales or have taken a hiatus from the hobby. For whatever reason, these prolific posters here on MLS have severly cut back on their postings. Unfortunately, taking the time to answer a newbie's question may not be high on the list of priorities so they leave the question answering to others that are posting daily.

As to the acrimony of the posts, I have noticed a marked change (and not for the better) of the posts here on MLS. I will not cast blame as I have (admittedly) "gone off the deep end" a couple of times, mosly in response to Bachmann's universal socket attempts but that's another story best left for another time... All I can offer you is this piece of advice: Stand your ground and don't get discouraged! Every one of us started eactly at the same point as you and we asked the same questions! We were no better at modelling, landscaping, etc... than you are when we were starting out so cheer up! You are at the #1 website for LS model railroading! Let the sour comments roll off your back like water on a duck. It'll be fine and soon, you'll be answering newbie's questions!


----------



## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

I totally agree with you Wayne. 
There are a handful of people that have nothing better to do than bash and trash anything they don't agree with. 
What compounds the problem is that some use multiple "alts" to further their agenda. 

I used to be heavily into 1/8th scale RC racing and quit that hobby for the same reason. 

I do my best to ignore them and just do my own thing, and try to share things that I think would be of interest and help to others. But even that turns into a nitpick fest once in awhile. 
I try not to let it bother me but it has caused me to limit posting my projects here. 

I don't know what the answer is to the problem but I do know that it has been going on here for as long as I have been coming here. It is as you point out one of the main reasons that fewer and fewer people post here. 

Ron


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

What Steve said... 

Mostly about alot of the "old crowd" is gone, or just not active online much anymore. TOC, Fletch, Chris Walas, to name a couple, have been preoccupied by life or have moved on to other things, so ALOT of creativity and experience have been lost, the living archive of MLS so to speak. 

Not going to go there about the personal rancor of opinions about DCC, R/C, DC, stainless vs brass, must have 20' dia curves for your new Stainz or it won't look right... that's part of the trouble, (opinions are like derrieres, every one has one and they are quite content to sit firmly on theirs' and don't want to hear about yours')









Also the scale itself has _fundamentally_ changed over the last couple years, the rather loose fun loving whimsical aspect of 'good enough, Rule 8, R1, and 10 foot rule" they got me into large scale have given way to a much more rigorous scale approach, both in 1/29 and 1/20.3 are now becoming much more dominated by the same rigorous prototype rules that have governed the smaller scales. Back in '02 we'd get a nice looking locomotive or a car and we'd all go OOH and COOL, now it gets picked apart for the stupid wheels being off by a couple scale inches, not being the correct scale length, or not being based on a specific roadname prototype. It also hasn't helped that all these years later, QC issues are _still_ a big problem with alot of products. 

Don't even get me started on kitbashing, which seams to be going the way of the Dodo. Fewer people seam interested in bashes of late. I stopped doing full building logs simply because its alot of work and fewer and fewer showed any interest, so now I just do one or two post showing a few pics from start to finish, and get some hits and maybe a handful of replies, but Nothing like back when I started or before the economy went south, most of those left in the hobby these days are interested in different things. Thats just the way it goes. 

So hang in there, ask the questions, there will always be some of use will do our best to answer and help what we can.


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes don't get discouraged Wayne, it might seem like jousting but at the end of the day they take off the armour and drink together. You know thinking about the situation here on MLS it really reminds of politics in that there seems to be more and more divisive partisan politics going on, with "opposition" parties getting really good at pushing each others buttons. I'm as guilty of it as the next guy and we just have to rise above it. 
It doesn't help that there are now a lot more guys on here pushing their own products or they are part of someone elses development team. This leads to all sorts of mischief, especially when times are tough and they are all scratching for a sale and not afraid to use misinformation to put down other products or people. I actually think this is one of the biggest problems facing MLS and I don't know how to get around it. 

Keith


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm not going to jump in and say "yeah that guy is the problem"... that dogpiling does not help anything. 

But I do want to address your (I'm talking to Wayne) frustration a bit. 

You asked a lot of questions, that is great. 

But early on I saw you became frustrated that the answer was not simple. Maybe I have misinterpreted, but I can understand this frustration. 

The counterpoint is that many people are very passionate about the hobby, and their individual choices. 

The classic one is battery vs. track power. In most cases, people who has made the choice believe that their choice is the best choice for everyone. 

You can try to issue caveats, frame the decision in your priorities, but by and large people IGNORE the caveats and priorities and apply THEIR personal priorities to someone else's situation. 

It's a hard thing for normal people to overcome. 

Also, this can be a big financial commitment, and many people have too much pride to admit they may have made the wrong choice. 

Again, a normal situation for most people. 

So you get heated discussions. 

In my opinion, it's great to present FACTS to "plead your case".... but unfortunately people get personal right away. 

Most people, when their opinion get's challenged take it personally, and lash back personally. 

Then it's off to the races. 

Ron says that he quit R/C racing because of this. You can go to basically ANY hobby and get strong opinions and strong people. 

What seems to be missing here in MLS is trying to keep the personal part out. 

Because people take disagreement personally, I think it's almost impossible to keep the discussions impersonal. 

It's too bad, but it's human nature... read the threads above.... 

(I actually am on/own/moderate several forums where this does not happen, it CAN be done) 

Regards, Greg


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Wayne, 

You are not alone. I have noticed the fighting on this forums a lot more in the last 6 months or so. For this reason I have gravitated towards another forums that I rarely see fighting and I feel more comfortable posting there. I can say that there are other large scale forums out there and you might find they are better. 

With that said, i still linger here because I think there are some people who have a lot of knowledge about the hobby and I am always interested in what they have to say. I look at the knowledge they post and ignore the fighting that comes after.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Wayne, 

I have been a member here for 13 years+ and I think that BOTH Steve and Vic have hit upon the problem of incivility on MLS in particular. Very good points indeed guys. I know that I'm getting older and don't participate or post as often as I used to.


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

I had this big comment written out, but when I submitted it gave me a forum not available error... 

I hope I can re do it, but I don't think Ill make it as long this time 
I hope I didn't make it sound like I had a problem with older folks, I didn't want that, I meant more that I understand the frustration of why on a forum the experienced guys get fed up with reposting answers, but on the flip side the people asking are new, they may have very well searched the forums for the answers but have left more confused, or the answers weren't there at all for the specific thing, yes it may have been about track power for example, but not for their situation. 

Greg, I didnt get a little frustrated but not at the answers, more the answers didn't leave me any closer to a decision. I know I could go DCC, and it will work, i could do all I want with it, run on more then one on one track, do point to point, consist a bit (not a big deal for me, but I may have 1 slightly steep grade that could need helping hands), and you say that I dont need to run wiring all over the yard, but then another says I should block, I have never fully under stood blocking off, i get that its to have the track sectioned to find faults if they arise, but the actual wiring is a little off to me. Plus switches and points, how are they worked out on DCC, can I do manual switches where got up and throw the switch by hand, not electronics needed? No asking to have this answered now, more that these are specifics that change, and from what I have found are unique to me, I have not taken a side so to speak on what either you or Tony have said. I am open minded to all sides, and Ill choose what I feel will be right for me, and balance the cost, my ability and my needs into it, I like to follow the KISS rule, because I enjoy it more when things are overly complicated all the time, not saying I cant do the complicated but why make something relaxing, not relaxing, for example I can wire a loco for battery, not thought involved once I learn whats needed, but if say for DCC I have to plan up a whole back yard full of wiring schematics just to run the trains and make a couple of points move and it will need to be ripped up once a year and done again because of deterioration, I would rather go battery. Hence my confusion, and most of these answers are very hard to find, and even when asked are not always answered. As I said none of this needs answering now of course, just explaining my confusing and slight if any frustration. 

I guess all up Im just saying that if the forum follows the rule of search for answers too strongly it will struggle to keep a live, Ive seen to many go that way and if theres no new threads then it fails. I agree search first but with such a diverse hobby then the questions will come up and may seem the same but for each person may need different answers. 

Hopefully one day I will become experienced and have some answers to give to people my self, but with that I will keep an open mind and only answer with what I have learned, and try to keep learning, because even though you have a great railway, and have done it well, you arent always right with the needs of others, and its good to learn from the other ways of doing things yourself, instead of making a stand on one way and sticking to it. No matter which way I go for power, I will not say its the only way, because my needs are way different then that of the next person, and again for things such as scale, Im not going to be too picky on it, yeah one scale looks different to the other, but my plan is to only allow 1.20.3 at once time, but oh well its my track if I put a 1.20.3 American loco from 1890 on the track along side an Aussie 1.32 scale modern diesel then thats a choice ill make! I dont want to not be able to buy a particular loco I fall in love with just because Ive said my general theme is steam error logging or what not. 

Again I hope this thread doesnt turn into a big fight, I truly do intend it more to be about showing a new comers perspective as to what I have seen and that its a little saddening that a great gentle hobby has such issues.


----------



## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Exile182, 

I just like to indulge in some whisky when confronted with the internet. I find my attention span in seconds is equal to the age of my scotch in years; easy! 

I've been here three months, and I am so confused that I think the best answer to "which digital control should I get?" is "Burn coal." 

If a post makes no sense, challenge the person to clarify or elaborate. 

Grease your ducks so the water goes off the duck like greased lightening. 

Follow the KISS rule mostly when women are within reach. Keeps me sane.


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Haha, well Im not a big drinker (strange for an Aussie I know) but when I do its whisky or rum, not a beer person (even stranger for an Aussie). 

I try generally avoid telling women to "Keep It Simple Stupid", it tends to never work out well for me haha!


----------



## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Why not adding something like an alert button may be calling one "Useful" and the other "discarded" and whoever posted some out off line reply's can be voted off(only the post not the user) 

Manfred


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Wayne I understand what you said, and it was exactly what I was trying to say.. many people come here and want to make a decision and get underway. 

One problem clearly is different opinions. 

One issue is how people get to an answer. I usually don't have a problem getting to an answer because I was trained in problem solving. I set my priorities and then go and get information (maybe revise my priorities as I learn more) and then pretty much go down the pros and cons. 

But not all people come to decisions in an (obvious) structured manner. And not all people appreciate that the person seeking help may have different priorities. Some people flat don't even consider priorities to help them winnow down the choices to an answer. 

So, you got a lot of raw data... but no real help on making the decision in my opinion. 

I have a methodology for making decisions, and others have theirs. I usually suggest an approach where you can write stuff down and set your priorities.. that seems to work for people meaning that the decision that falls out is one they are happy with. 

I have a beginners section and FAQ section at the very beginning of my web site. It has helped many people make their decisions on power and track type and control system, etc. 

I have outlined the process and information by which I came to the decisions for myself. 

This was all put there to help people, perhaps it might be of some benefit for you. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Manfred, the problem with that would be the questions maybe the same, but for different situations, and since situations are pretty much endless, the questions will always be asked. Obviously if its the same simple, questions over and over then a simple referral to other posts about the same thing would suffice I think. 

Greg, you and I have similar ways of coming to a decision on things, I work out almost all my wants and desires first (some desires come and go, and when some may say 2 types of desires wont work together I normally try and find a way to make it work) and then move on to working out the pros and cons of each thing and as a whole of it all together. I have checked out your website, it was very helpful, but again some questions werent answered, and they actually arent hard questions I would assume, for example one desire I have is to have manual switches/turnouts/points, where as I go up to the switch, push or pull the lever thats either scale or made from a bolt latch as I have seen and then the track changes position, is this possible for track power? and not have any at all wiring to the switch? since theres no power mechanism, do I need to wire the switch so power transfers properly along the track or do it cut, and one train on one loop stops, and a the train i was switch starts because i have in effect, change which loop as power? 

But my purpose of the post is not whether I can get the answers, or anyone else for that matter, but more to do with, if new people come along they be deterred from the hobby if they see that it can be very much a pick a side deal, and may very well run into more problems then needed through that fact. Thats all, nothing to sinister, Ill keep asking questions, and if I get told off for asking too much or picking a style of particular thing, I wont mind so much, because Im doing the hobby for me, and not to get the approval from others, though at the same time it is nice to be able to show my efforts and be given ideas to how i could better it and even the odd pat on the back! Who doesnt like that ?!


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Keep asking those questions Wayne, there's a lot of experience here and lots of strong opinions and personalities (besides me ha ha!). 

I always think of something several of my mentors said. 

1. you start out and you know you know nothing (and it's true) 
2. you begin to learn and at least speak the lingo 
3. you learn more and begin to understand, you can help inform others 
4. you learn even more and start to feel confident, people start to ask your opinion. 
5. you finally become and expert and know a lot of stuff, people seek you out.. 

Now, here's the important "level" not everyone gets to 

6. you learn more and realize you don't know very much at all and you have a lot more to learn 
(now you probably are an expert, but don't think so) 

Greg


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Agreed with that, well I will ask those questions about the switches, I would really like to know that as it will help with my decision with power. 

Life is a process of continual growth, nothings ever really mastered!


----------



## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

Part of this problem is that written language, while the only game in THIS town, is not the only way we communicate. And the other ways have no way of being translated into typed words. Part is the way we use language in a global communication. In the UK, a scheme is a proposal. here there's somthing sinister about a scheme that's not there in a proposa. Who know what it means in Australia. 

Another part is that humor, sarcasm, etc., doesn't show up well in type. Humor is tough, never very clear, and dependent on too many cultural references. 

Which is a long way of saying "keep the kernals, blow off the chaff." And if you disagree with the suggestions and conclusions offered here, it's chaff.


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Understand that Dick, writing shows a lot less emotion then intended, SMS was a big issue in the teens. For us Aussies we dont normally miss understand slang, humor and sarcasm of the other major English speaking nations, for we are either a mixture of them, such as UK, or we are very influenced by US entertainment. But yes sometime something thats written as a bit of a joke can be taken wrong. But also to the keyboard has also become a way for those who would normally not say something harsh or aggressive in person to do that very thing, which is a problem in the modern world.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can use manual throws on switches for track power. I don't know of any switch that requires track power to allow power except for those with live frogs, where you really don't need power to the switch, you might need a microswitch to route power from the rails to the frog. 

Don't worry about this, there's many ways to make this work. 

Greg


----------



## ththfxr (Dec 27, 2007)

!


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you think something is bs, then ask for an explanation.... bs will out. 

And there are people here who often know something about virtually everything... maybe people who have years of experience. 

So don't whine, call it out. BS will show itself rapidly.


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Fine example of the problem, which the original comment has been changed. sigh, I did see that you said I need to know my place, well I wouldnt take it that easily if that was ever expected.


----------



## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Wayne, 
with oldfashioned analogue you got the following options for turnouts (switches/points): 

manual (if too far away, using the system handbrakes on bikes have) 

electric - the usual, two (or three) wires from a pushbutton to the switchmotor. (the pushbuttons can be replaced by reedcontacts and magnets for automatic switching, triggered by the trains) 

airpressure - an electropump pumps/sucks air through a hose, so moving the turnout. 

specials - for turnouts in "passing siding"stations or at the entrance to reverse loops, one can use "fall-back" switches. (p.e. the manual switchbox from LGB does that, as do simple springs or rubberbands) 

specifics, like AC or DC, what voltage etc. depend on the brand of switches, you will use.


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Wayne. 
I think once you have met some Aussies that have Garden RR's, or at least have Garden RR experience, at the club meet next Sat, you will be a lot more reassured that Garden RR'ing in Qld is not as cut and dried as others would like to think it is. 
Most have track power, some have DCC and some have battery R/C.


----------



## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

You see, people can't even agree on why they can't agree. I honestly feel that in general, people are just a bit more short tempered than they used to be. Blame the economy, the weather, the politicians, you name it.. People just aren't as patient and kind to each other as they used to be. 

You can't blame people's lack of patience on the change of forum software. That's just plain wrong. You can only kick that dead horse for so long. The current set up has been in place for just as long as the old one was at this point, or pretty damn close to it. To not think that all those old topics haven't been re-hashed again and again in this more recent format is ignorant. They're here in this system too. Too often a new member was chided for asking the same questions in the previous forums as they do in these ones. Time hasn't changed much in that regard. Besides, I'd say a lot of that old info is dated anyway. New products have come out, old ones aren't available any more.. Pricing has changed, so the economies are different. Did we lose some great builders logs? Absolutely.. But a lot of the basic info has moved over. A few will complain that the search functionality isn't working right, and if you'll remember, it was even worse in the old software. I still have all the old forum posts in a database. Maybe one day I'll figure out a way to get it online again, maybe I won't. But the handful of you that keep harping on the loss of those old antiquated forums need to move on like the rest of us.

There is a natural ebb and flow to forums like this. People come in and out of the hobby as their lives change. There are some that have moved on because they have moved to different scales, different hobbies all together, or in some cases, left this life. It's the way of these things. I see it in other forums where I lurk for another hobby of mine. Some have left because they disagree with how I run things, some left because they didn't like others in the community. Some are missed and some definitely are not. Some contribute great value to the community, and some people's contributions are overshadowed by their egos. Like every day life, people come in and out of your circle, and the key is to appreciate and learn from them while they are here, and treat others how you'd like to be treated. Unfortunately too many are quick to forget the golden rule.

As for the hobby in general, I don't share the same doom and gloom that many do. Is the hobby declining? I don't think so, but it's definitely stagnant. In my own personal case, I'm re-evaluating where I fit in the hobby. My family life has taken a few drastic turns in the last year, and I find myself with limited time, energy, and funds to devote to the large outdoor layout I dreamed of 12 years ago. Long, modern rolling stock snaking through large sweeping turns are now something that I can't do in the foreseeable future, and I'm not sure I want to. Electric steam locos don't really interest me much. I may at some point invest in a small to mid size live steam loco with a trail of cars and a small loop of track that I can easily set up and take down to run her on. I've always loved the Accucraft 2-6-0 mogul, and have wanted one since they came out. I see myself moving more in that direction in the future. The large modern diesels that I love will have to be in HO scale where I can more easily fulfill my vision for a rail empire.

Don't be discouraged. If there's one piece of advice I can give you is READ, READ, and READ some more. I know things are a bit disorganized right now, and I'm working on it. Don't ask what you should do, but do some research, decide what you think is best, then bounce your ideas off the collective and then refine. There are a ton of options, and just like buying a new car, you need to narrow things down to a few options before announcing to the world that you need a new car and want to know what to get. What are your needs and wants? What's your environment like? What do you want out of the hobby? Do you enjoy the building, the running, or both? How much maintenance do you want to do? Once you nail down some of these things, you can start ruling out options for power, track choices, locos, etc. Eventually, you'll figure out the direction you should take, and embark on a great journey that lets you escape your everyday world for a while. It's a fun hobby if you let it be. Our motto around here is "Have fun with your trains" and I think that gets forgotten often. People take it too seriously sometimes. Remember that the purpose of a hobby is to relax and find enjoyment. Don't let others take that from you.

Have fun with your trains...


----------



## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

Nicely written Shad


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Shad, thats really well said. Thanks for the advice and I will, I think if theres anything I have is time in the sense of hobbies at the moment!


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

"Have fun with your trains" ... that's my line...it's in my signature









And it's by far the best attitude to have. I always remember this is for fun, my fun, no one elses. So I will continued to have fun with my trains. 

PS despite the signature pic, the explosives are optional ...


----------



## tom p (Jan 30, 2009)

WE all love trains, but, we are not experts on all or any aspects. When we ask questions, it is because we want to learn. It is demeaning to be treated as though the question we asked was stupid because we used the wrong terminology or answered with arrogance. Some members are often chastized for this on many occasions. It detracts from the whole forum. It costs no more to be polite!
BUT vsmith has it right- we are in trains for our own enjoyment.


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Yeah, thats my whole point to this post, we all like trains, its great to hand it down to new people, young or old. Its a hobby and its fun! I could go and just buy stuff on my own but that would probably mean I would make a lot of costly mistakes, so it having a forum to go to is a great thing, and really the main cause for it is so people who are new, and those who are experienced can learn, even if we have problems with ways of doing things or brands does not mean those who are using those things do. 

They are fun! keep them that way.


----------



## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Thats why I like to visit all the forums. If I dont get the answere in one I am bound to get it in another forum. Sometimes I will post a question on three other forums and its amazing the difference in responces. One forum I might get 0 responces while another one I will get pages. Im not a big poster on here but I use this site more for the Live Steam. I find its the most active live steam forum around. Try other forums. There is no rule that says you cant visit LSC or Gscale central etc..... and no one will bash you for it.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

It is demeaning to be treated as though the question we asked was stupid because we used the wrong terminology or answered with arrogance. 
That is, perhaps, my biggest peeve with online forums--and it's not limited to this one by any means. As a moderator here, when I see such behavior, I try to mitigate it the best I can, but often the damage is already done; the person is long gone after being run off simply because he's a newcomer. The "old guard" cheers because they don't have to listen to newbies with "stupid questions." The forum, as a result, gets very stale very fast because there's no new blood coming in. We're supposed to be ambassadors to the hobby, not protectors of the realm. 

The universe won't tip out of balance if you simply choose not to respond to a question you feel is not asked or researched properly. Just move on to the next topic and let someone else have a crack at answering. 

Later, 

K


----------



## tom p (Jan 30, 2009)

Kevin I whole heartly agree with you and vic. Trains are to be fun and a source of new learning experiences. Forums can be a place of learning and often just to chitchat. BUT. what often happens and I see it happening here is it becomes a "clicque" If you are not in it, you are ignored. Or even worse bullied by a few. I know most of my club have abandoned most of the blogs due to these problems. Like one member stated "Every question asked is monoplied by the same person. I just got tired of reading him put down others that disagreed with him or took it upon himself to moderate the discussion." The moderators are doing a great disservice to the advertizers who pay dearly have a wide audience, when many are turned off and leave due to the bullying and non clique membership.


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Quite right K, there seems to be this need in some of the longer running hobbies to stop people coming in, I dont know if its for fear of being out done or of being pushed from the limelight or what, but I did experience it in the RC flying world pretty bad, one group of did not want you in, the other group were almost unbearably nice if that makes sense. Same I see happens here, I know I have not yet got out into the real world and seen real people about it yet but I hope to soon. 

oh and Tony, I didnt see your post, yes, Ill be there.


----------



## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

I agree with EBT. But then those are the same people that don't have a clue in everyday life either. Nice about here is that I can skip over stuff that gets that way 
I've learned a lot from this forum, and met others in my area that enjoy the hobby. Pick and choose works well for me along with great advise 
Alan W.


----------



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Guys: 

Yes the bullies, whom are obvious through their postings, really become a turn off. 
You must operate with battery power, 1:20.3 is the new standard, etc. , etc. . 
One of these bullies has moved over to the other forum and the other bully is now on both forums. 
The "clique" club is also a negative factor. 

When mylargescale started out, this behaviour was not that evident. Personally, I am too addicted to toy trains to be intimidated by these mean individuals. 

The Beginners Forum presently seems to offer the most interesting posts. 

Personally for me the "Golden Days" of mylargescale existed while reading Dave Fletcher's MasterClass build series. That was the best. 

3 rail O Scale is doing well as is HO Scale. So what is the problem for large scale? 

I thought that the 1:20.3 exact track gauge with high detail would bring in the aging HO scale group who demand exact scale and exact track gauge. 
However, the 1:32 exact track gauge by MTH was overtaken by 1:29 scale. So what gives? 

So what is the problem? 

Is 1:20.3 scale simply too large? Would exact track gauge 1:24 scale offering smaller sized scale models with the same level of detail as 1:20.3 save large scale? 

Is it a question of increased product pricing? 

It matters not that those who entered largescale say ten years ago now have their models. The negative is the lack of new products for new customers. 

If Shad is not too interested in electric steam locos and is thinking of live steam, try to view a 1:32 scale MTH Hudson in operation. That laboured chuff with the synchronised billowing smoke is extremely realistic. 

Here again, MTH is not interested in narrow gauge product so why does not MTH licence out their sound and puffing smoke system to Bachmann trains? 

A friend here in Ottawa commented to me that when he started in largescale the high detail two rail steam models did not exist as they do now. That is why he selected largescale. Possibly the aging HO Scale folks are moving up to the high detail two rail O Scale instead of largescale models? 

As an outside observer it appears to me that the largescale mfgs. did not plan their product line correctly at all as to agreeing to a common standard gauge scale, common couplers, common sound and controls systems, etc. 

All of this conflicting standards is not consumer friendly. O Scale 3 rail or HO Scale does not have that problem. 

VSMITH, that TV series was absolutely nuts! Great show as were most of the late 1950's and early 1960's product. Gilligan's Island, etc. These show were a diversion from every life and that is exactly the purpose of toy trains. 

Here again, someone will cry out " My Aster is not a toy" . Sorry, but your Aster absolutely is a toy. A highly detailed toy. 

Gomez Addams blows up his trains to excuse himself from playing with a toy in the same manner as some posters deny that they are playing with a toy train but rather they are operating a model. 

Sorry guys, we are all reliving our childhood in the pursuit of happiness playing with toy trains. 

What is wrong with that? 


Norman


----------



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Tom P: 

"Every question asked is monoplied by the same person. I just got tired of reading him put down others that disagreed with him or took it upon himself to moderate the discussion." 

Yes, exactly. I do not understand how or why this man does this. We all know who he is. How does he have time to constantly reply to almost ever question and then engage into an endless war of words if he is crossed? 

The pity of the matter is that he has a lot to offer. I have read his webpage and took note of his advice. He knows what he is talking about but his rudeness is beyond comprehension. 


Norman


----------



## tom p (Jan 30, 2009)

I think many have made the point. Its time to end this thread as we are sounding exactly what disenheartened was talking about.


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

There is one benefit to standing up (perhaps foolishly), now when I see a post go unanswered, I'll post something, even when I know nothing about it, then I sit back and watch the same cadre rush in to 'correct' me. Often they actually help the OP! 

Oh the POWER!!!!!! 
I'm laughing..... 

Happy Rails 

John


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 10 Feb 2013 11:58 AM 
There is one benefit to standing up (perhaps foolishly), now when I see a post go unanswered, I'll post something, even when I know nothing about it, then I sit back and watch the same cadre rush in to 'correct' me. Often they actually help the OP! 

Oh the POWER!!!!!! 
I'm laughing..... 

Happy Rails 

John 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Maybe we need some new newbie questions, and see what the answers are? 

- Can I dispense wine from an LGB tank car? Will the wine turn its insides red, and if so, how do I avoid wine-tinged vodka? 

- Why is everybody running passenger trains with no people in them? 

- There's a bees' nest in my garden railway. What should I do?


----------



## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Whilst it be *easy *for us to bash someone who is right 97% of the time, let it be said - the right are oft alone in the pursuit of truth while the meek look for the shadows to hide. 

In grades 1 to 5, I hated my teacher. She shot me down every time I had something to say. I called her "Wat a b..ch"

Now I says to myself: She was right, fool. If you cannot learn from somebody, shut up and listen sometimes, however monotonous and painful it may sound. Your life may depend on it out there in the oceans of the unknown.

I vote for that lone individual who stands _alone _and will gladly pay for more of such. It costs me nothing to be proven wrong often. And, If you are right most of the time, you will be rich someday by the law of averages, be advised.

No one could stand this man - yet we agree he was right - most of the time.










Cheers,

Victor


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Actually yes it seems to be turning into what I started the post about. Some of post are slightly off subject if thats the right word for it. Victor, not to go against what I said this post is a bout but, that really would depend on who you are in the world. 

I think my post may have started to bring out exactly what I wanted to address, and for this I apologize.


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By norman on 10 Feb 2013 12:29 AM {snip}

Sorry guys, we are all reliving our childhood in the pursuit of happiness playing with toy trains. 

What is wrong with that? {snip}
Norman... Absolutely nothing. I certainly agree.... And I'm enjoying my "toy" trains a great deal...


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Yeah, the thing is, some say its not toys for kids cannot afford it, would not know what to do correctly with them, but they are toys, just big boys toys, and toys kids can use with adult supervision.


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By BigRedOne on 10 Feb 2013 12:45 PM 
There's a bees' nest in my garden railway. What should I do? 

Bee careful, of course ...


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I kind of miss the old "Chevy" vs "Ford" discussions we used to have on live steam. Some times we got a little out of hand and the mods had to step in, but it was just fun amoung friends in the hobby.


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

.


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Nevermind, the other Victor


----------



## Cyborg1 (Jun 16, 2009)

The original post was not about switches, scale, pricing, or about being right. It was about the lack of civility some show towards others! Think about it, grown men; adults supposedly; acting like I don't know what over model trains. Get a life!


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Cyborg1, 
Careful friend, since battling cancer and losing my job, trains and my friends here, are about as much life as I can get. 
But thanks for the fine example of 'talking down' to all of us miscreants... 
Boy this is funny! 

This media sucks when I think Joke and others read insult.... or think I am continuing the mis understanding ... 
But exactly how does the Exclamation "Get a Life!" denote civility? yes it is ironical ... 
Be Blessed 

John


----------



## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

The wise old owl lived in the oak 
The more he saw the less he spoke 
The less he spoke the more he heard 
We should all be like that wise old bird.


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Either posts have been edited or I am totally lost, I have no idea what a lot of the comments are now about. Yeah Cyborgs right, its a lot about civility, basically what im getting at. The only reason I brought up switches and things was as an example of what happens, I see so many questions get answered by opinions solely based on "this is what I did and any other way is wrong no matter the situation" which i know isnt always how it is but seems to be more prominent then it should be. Some one says I dream of this style of set up, what power type would suit me, and yet theres a huge argument that causes the original poster to be just as lost with no actual help and randomly picks 1 of th 4 ways to do its pot luck as to whether what he got was the right choice and if not, either accepts his choice and deals with it because he cant afford a change, and tries something else over time, and if he cant change normally ends up feeling so guilty or bad on his choice that he claims its the best choice to go with and maybe worse becomes one of the people who made it hard for him to decide in the first place. 

For example, theres no true definition on whats needed. A person is new, watches videos, gets the idea of scales, the different power types and the idea on how to set up the railway in the sense of track shapes and all that. But these questions linger, what power type is best for me, what loco is best for me, I do have a budget but not sure what that is for I dont know what costs to expect to start up on, etc...Then he thinks over time what he would like, from watching videos, reading articles and posts online and books as well, he decides he doesnt mind cleaning track, depending on what that means, as there is several different accounts on how to and how often, but would prefer to not clean too much if its a big effort. He would like manual switches but hears stories that if you have track power you need to make sure the polarity is wired for when the points are switched so wiring will be needed anyway if going manual switches. He worries about the running of wires in general, and would really not like to have to run wires all over his back yard under ground. 
So he goes online and researches some more, asks some questions, he gets the same run around as has happened to others and gets lost. So he asks more plainer questions, asks for cost on how to start up, gets more run around. He looks up and sees a Bachmann Big Hauler set on a website for aprox $400 and wonders if this is a good deal or whether a bit more could get him the same track amount and maybe a different loco. Questions still get run around answers. 

For me, now I know im no expert, but wouldnt it be good to say to him, ok to your manual switches yes or no, to the cleaning of track, look yes its often for good connection, at least every day you run, clean it before hand, but look it doesnt have to be hard, you can buy a car that looks just like any other rolling stock that does it for you or you could modify your own car to do do it, or you could say yes it is hard, and sometimes they dont work and even if it does work you can get dead spots at times. Track power depends on whether you want to run all day or dont mind changing out, yes batteries do cost more, so if you spend $800 on a loco then add and extra $$$? on top to convert, is this worth it to you or not? A good starting point will be this much $$$ and get you a good loco with DCC on a simple loop, or even $$$$ to get you a good battery set up with a loop and a siding, dont quote those prices but theres a an Idea for you, because you then know it will grow after that as you see fit. 

I dont know why theres this, "what power should I use for my situation" and the answers are, DCC is best, I use it and going battery is soooo expensive it costs so many x the amount of dcc per loco", and then battery comes on the defense and goes, "well it cost a bit more but not that much, look if you start on dcc but get 1 battery later you will go fully battery and never go back and waste you money on dcc" Then the person asking goes well whats a DCC set up worth for a small loop of a simple switching layout for my living room floor gonna cost and the same for battery? the answer go "I cant really say that it depends on your track and loco, and rolling stock and power type" and theres another major issue, is that if this guy then says Im asking differences between prices so power type needs to be taken separately for same setup, track lay out is given either a small loop with siding or basic switching for living room floor, and the loco that is given is either a good starting loco thats not to toyish or he knows he wants a Bachmann K-27 or a Lyn. Yet after all this, theres the argument between the people over costs and types and how and whats better yet nothing actually given to the guy asking other then "this ways better but I cant tell you what your asking because theres to many variables" 

Sorry to come across angry, but to be honest Ive been looking at these for a long time, a few years, not saying how long, but I was reading posts before I signed up and this is so often how it goes, until his desire is either broken, or he has given up and gone it alone then come back with the look what ive done.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Wayne, 

I have stayed out of this thread as long as I could, but I believe it is a little out of control now mainly because your last few posts seem to meander. Let me look at this from an outsider. 

My impression of you just from the context of your posts is that you don't like the answers you're getting and you're hitting back at those who have tried to answer your questions. When I started this hobby some thirty years ago, there were no websites to help a beginner. I made quite a few mistakes AND costly ones at that! But these were MY decisions......I had no one else to blame. You seem to be happy if another person makes those decisions for you. That ain't goin' happen. You first have to see what kind of a budget you have to build a railroad, then go from there. Make YOUR OWN decision of how to power your railroad.....trackpower, DCC or possibly battery and wireless throttles. Your power decision will help you to decide on track type.....brass, stainless steel or aluminum. All this will reflect directly on your budget. The answers that all of the posters above gave you were SUGGESTIONS for you to think about and make your OWN decision, for your own particular needs. IF you entered this hobby thinking it was cheap and you could cut corners, that ain't goin' happen either. This hobby is DISPOSABLE INCOME, NOT your life savings. No one knows what the future will bring in this hobby. No one on here is going to give a sure-fire way to avoid some problems. I have had an old saying and it goes as such......"Quit aiming and start shootin'". In other words, get out there and start laying some track. I don't care what kind! Then start running something maybe using a small power pack. You say you're into RC planes and cars, this should be a snap for you!

Frankly, IMHO, this thread should never have started. If you are frustrated or dis-heartened by what you are hearing, then step back for a few days and read and re-read and think about what you want from this hobby. JMHO. 
EDIT: Well, now I see you have started another thread: I think I know 1 thing I want to do!. Do you really want to start in live steam and you say admittedly that you don't know how to weld and various othe things. At least with steam., you won't have to worry about electrical problems!


----------



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Victor: 

" No one could stand this man - yet we agree he was right - most of the time. Cheers, Victor " 

The history of that photograph. 

That photograph was taken here in Ottawa during the War at the Chateau Laurier Hotel after Churchill had crossed the Atlantic. I do not know if by ship or aircraft. Either way, an extremely hazardous voyage for Mr. Churchill. 

The interesting point about this photograph is the photographer did not want the cigar in the photograph which Churchill wished to retain. At the last moment before shutter release, the photographer approximately said " Excuse me Mr. Churchill " and then yanked the cigar out of either Mr. Churchill's mouth or hand ! This produced the famous "Churchill scowl" . 

Imagine in the 1940's , when Western society still practiced manners in the British tradition, to have yanked away the cigar from the greatest Western leader of the then rapidly shrinking free world. Unthinkable. Yet later Churchill approved of the photograph! 

Norman


----------



## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Wayne, I run track power with manual switches. I have about 400 feet of track in a double track odd shaped oval with some sidings and spur tracks. No yard yet. It take me about 30 minutes to blow off the track if I have not regularly done so and wipe down the track. I run the trains in the summer and have a open house each Halloween for the trick-or-treaters. If there is the possibility of snow (which is rare in Mississippi, I will get the track ready to run in the snow). I have researched battery power and decided at this time I will stick with track power. The two parallel tracks are not connected so I can run trains in opposite directions. All my switches are manual because my funds are limited and they meet the present conditions I run the trains. Things may change but like most outdoor layouts, it is a work in progress. The way we all build our layouts depend on available funds. Some have more to invest, some have less and have to save up and shop wisely to purchase what we want to see on the layout. Some layouts are an addition to the garden, some have a garden that is an addition to the layout. Some layouts are designed just to run trains, some are built to switch and run similiar to a prototype. You have to decide what you want your layout to be and work toward that goal.


----------



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Wayne: 

Great advice from Ron Hill. 

I think that the only person who should comment that any specific thread regardless of content should not have been posted is Shad Pulley as this is his forum. 

Wayne, I now just noticed that you live in Australia. 

You are a lucky lad as in: 

a) you live in a magnificent paradise climate 
b) David Fletcher lives in Australia. 

Contact Dave Fletcher. Super generous person and I do not know who would know more about largescale than Dave Fletcher. 

Both Gary and Ron mention that this is a disposable income hobby. Also the inexpensive days of largescale have long passed. Large scale was once a very affordable model train scale and actually was a bargain " back then " compared to HO Scale considering the size of the models. 

We all have bought several locomotives and then realised those were not the locomotives or model theme we wanted. So we sell off at a loss and buy other locos only possibly to repeat the process as the mfgs. come right out of left field and tempt us with something we never thought of. 

1:20.3 scale is a major example as many folks who had a complete collection in 1:24 and 1:22.5 scale sold off their entire collections at a significant loss due to the tempation of 1:20.3 scale. 

Fortunately for me I find 1:20.3 scale models too large, as I have no self resistance, otherwise I would sell off all of my 1:22.5 toys to restart again. 

For yourself at least the product offerings have now stabilised so you can look over all product available and decide on a purchase. 

G Scale Junction and R L D Hobbies have excellent pricing. Nice honest dealers. 

Some folks decide on a specific era of trains, such as 1800's narrow gauge, and purchase only that. 

Personally, I buy narrow and standard gauge live steam locos of any era which appeal to me. Just no diesels ! OK guys, I have to draw the line somewhere. 

My SUGGESTION for an outdoor layout is to buy aluminum trackage ( lowest cost ) and power your locos with battery and transmitter. You only actually require one car to haul behind your loco and place both the batteries and receiver in the one trailing car. This way you do not need to buy a battery pack and receiver for each locomotive you wish to run outdoors. 

However, on the other hand ! , you can also run outdoors through transformer power to brass trackage very successfully by simply running the same gauge as interior household wiring parallel to the trackage and periodically feed jumper wires to the track to ensure good electrical supply of current. Of course you still need to periodically wipe off the rails with rail cleaner. 

Easiest method for outdoor running: install batteries and a receiver in ONE car with a plug to power which ever one locomotive you wish to run at the moment. 

Norman


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Sorry Gary but you are far from correct with what I said, or feel, I dont know how I could get it across, but Im a beginner in large scale trains, not forums or hobbies, I have been in RC for long enough that when I started there was no internet for me either, and when I started flying there was internet. I did not say or expect decisions being made for me, where have I stated that? I asked for facts, like for manual switches do I need such and such, can it be done with track power, only greg answered that in the end. I actually did not directly ask what power should I use, I actually showed my thoughts and asked for the differences in the types and the differences in costs. Set a budget is great, i could set for $100 or $10,000, but that would mean Ive said heres what I have, what can I do, that still opens up the same variables, just means the pain of the prices change, but the problem will still stand on difference in cost anyway, because no matter how big my budget is, or anyone elses, they have different wants and things will change to that, and why spend more then needed, if something does the same sort of thing, and all it comes down to is cost, I want to know the better cost, which is obviously DCC, but then the arguments thrown that yes battery cost more but you have more realism in control and less track maintenance, ok great but is it worth the extra cost? I have no idea because that question I have asks, yes asked is not answered here. You say to decide on what i want before I budget, well thats no different then having an idea of costs before I budget, so I can get the best for budget in planning. I cold sit here going I want 4 battery locos with sound and smoke with 50 cars each, tracks made of stainless steel, switching from the same control, so many hundreds of feet of track, with switches every which way, then I go, but then I research the costs over the months and it will cost $50,000+ (example) I dont have that in my plans, or even if I set my budget and say go $5000 my dreams may blow it out, fine I lay off, I get some things in that budget, but then either I dont get what I want which is pointless then doing it. You may say well then thats a bad attitude, just get what you can afford, but if your not happy doing it why do it at all, its not a necessity its an enjoyment thing. And I have actually asked the questions based on a budget and was told there were too many variables, yet I stated my wants in that same post, manual switches, the loco's i like, my desire to not have to maintain to much, but again stated that it was a dependence on how hard it actually is to clean the track and how often since theres so many differing stories about it, I even gave a design Ive my layout dreams, size of it and curve sizes. Not saying that I didnt get help or that the help made it worse on the choosing of power type, I know what I would like, but I can not worried either way I go. The one thing that holds me and the whole thing back is cost and my budget, and i still am left with no idea of that cost of it as it seems it cant be told. 

I have been told this whole, just do it thing, this is the only hobby I have heard of that really pushes that, yes I get the point of stop sitting around second guessing, which is expected in any other hobby or any aspect in life, Im not second guessing, Im researching, it would be silly to just buy something, I have always researched, Ive always been able to buy the same products as the other guy at much cheaper prices and learn how to do things properly with little mistakes through using forums, and asking questions first, and then researching lots before jumping. My crowning glory was a scratch built 6ft wingspan Spitfire that was fully detailed with working canopy, animated pilot, and working exhaust stacks that came direct form the engines motor. People were shocked it didnt cost me over $5000 but it cost me only me $2000 all up, because I researched and took my time understanding first. The same mistakes are made by new people in RC who just jump in, they buy a P51 mustang, or the dreaded elliptical winged Spitfire and crash it first go, instead of researching and realizing theres safer, cheaper beginnings. 

And besides the fact, jump in or not, questions asked or not, my point of this post was the fact I have never seen such a divide between people in any hobby or interest, even RC's great rivalry of nitro vs electric doesnt get such an open contest. If the questions asked its normally simply put the differences, and differences in cost, and what appeals to the person asking. If any one says ones better in a nasty way, looking for a fight so to speak, they normally get shot down, theres obviously always one. And my post was just me saying I have not seen such a disagreement especially considering the type of hobby, its slow paced and relaxing and actually quite personal, its in your home, not an airfield or public area. And that RC airplanes actually has this stigma, that you quite often get one side against the other, but quite suprising that it didnt happen, the only thing I found was that some older people in the hobby seemed to have an issue with younger members not knowing how to build from scratch, yet didnt want to teach the younger members, they felt that if they had to learn alone and make mistakes so do the new ones, which i feel is wrong, isnt the point of the hobby teaching others not to make those mistakes so it can be even more enjoyable? Isnt that the main point of an online forum in swapping information, showing mistakes and explaining to new members the better way of doing things, from your experience? you dont have to answer the questions, but to say to a guy who just starting out who asks what power, locos and track to use, stop thinking about it, set a value and go buy something and if its wrong oh well try again as thats what we all do, is a bit harsh. I hope that one day when I am experienced I can say look which ever way you go, at least dont make these mistakes, no I didnt make them myself but the guys I asked the same questions to told these same things. 

But again I guess it doesnt matter, I asked the questions, some where answered some werent, Ive actually been getting help from some others on here and from another place too. Ill continue asking the questions here and other places, I dont see whats wrong with asking, Im asking for facts, Ill do the hard work my self, as to what i can and cant do, I dont see whats wrong with that, they arent stupid questions, as far as I can see. If you feel they are too hard to answer peoples questions then isnt it easier to just not answer instead of saying go do it take a blind leap? My original post was about the struggle to be intimidated away from the hobby through seeing these arguments of the people who know and yes I do regret putting this post up to some point, but will not back down on the fact that I dont want to take a blind leap, I would like to be guided, if I make it hard but doing my own circles then just ignore me. But I am not the only one who seems to find these things so. 

To be perfectly honest I dont know how to end this right, so I guess Ill leave it by saying I know what I would like, I dont know if I can do it, I dont even know what I could afford or whether I should move on because the cost will go so high before I even go past a 6ft loop, so I asked a couple of questions, only ended up being slightly more confused, not with what I want, but with what the costs could evolve. Not frustrated, I dont stand any different then before I asked the questions, I still watch videos, I still read books and articles. My disheartened state came from the shock in that the way things were said and done at times is all. And maybe this thread should be ended, as its definatelly taken the wrong way for some people.


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Gary, I did not say that I would start there, only it interests me, is that wrong? and is it wrong to start there? I see a lot of others have and do, and from what I researched, read, and seen, a lot of people who do start on it are teenagers, and they start with kits, now do all kits need soldering? I actually watched a full TV series where a lot of people started with kit live steam, it looked like they were just needing assembly and painting, all the welding was done. I could be wrong but I also read and seen that its a cheaper way to start out in it. But again thats another thread, and actually quite different to what I asked had posted for on here. But if I were to start on something like a kit that needed soldering or welding, the same style of questions arise, and thats how, why and where, same with the other powers, so following the do I really want to start with it? I have no idea, but then do I really want to start with running wires, either track based, or inside the loco itself? either way I have to do something so I ask questions. Again though, thats another post about something separate from this one, I have been told by many members to dont worry and just ask away. 

Ron, thanks for the information, that has actually made a big difference and really does help my decisions a lot easier. I do agree its meant to build so I want to start out small for now and let it grow, instead of spending more then my car costs to get started. Thank you 

Norman your information helps also, I have similar ideas, era and scale is not huge, i do have what I like but that would limit me to only so much and i know I would like many more then that limitation could offer, over time of course. The only that puts me off a bit is a battery car, I was thinking of having one as an edition to the battery the loco, but again research may provide me the answer to go that way. I just not sure if i like the idea of trying to do switching/shunting with battery car behind the loco. Again research will help. my eventual plan will allow me to (i hope) have at least one loop with a siding of switches, even inside a shed, or house could be the siding. 

But anyway thanks for the info there guys.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Whoa Wayne! You were the one that said you were "confused" with some of the answers you got. 

"but to say to a guy who just starting out who asks what power, locos and track to use, stop thinking about it, set a value and go buy something and if its wrong oh well try again as thats what we all do, is a bit harsh." Really Wayne? Then yes, I am harsh! But then that's just me. Yes, I am blunt. My point in my above reply to you was that I don't think you really know what you want from this hobby. Please note your new thread about "I think I know 1 thing I want to do!. If you have never done live steam, this can be more confusing AND EXPENSIVE than anything on the sparkie side. I know because I have played in that arena since the late sixties. If you are truly confused with some of the answers you are getting (and you say you're not asking for someone to help with your decision), then post a thread in one of the related sub-forums....trackpower, RC batteries, DCC AND the Live Steam sub-forum. Separate your questions into individual items so it can be easier to make those little sub-decisions. I know this hobby can be confusing to a beginner. Some folks were beginners ten years ago and now have some really beautiful layouts! Their modes of power have changed over the years. BUT THEY LEARN from their mistakes. That's the "fun" of the hobby. In my own case, I bought my first large scale train in a toy store, not a hobby shop or train store. This was 1985. Bought an LGB 2018D mogul. No sound and an ugly red and green engine! Bought three Colorado NG passenger coaches for it and a loop of brass LGB track, I bought a power pack for it and found out it could just handle running this little train. Ran it on a small 100 foot loop of track in the garden. $1200. When I DID go to a hobby shop near me to get more track, I found out how much extra I had paid at the toy store. Lesson learned! Finally came back into the hobby after building a 1/8th scale steam engine (ten-wheeler-500 pounds). Started into a new facet of LS and got involved in 1/20.3 (Fn3) finescale narrow gauge. Many thousands invested in this scale now, but I'm happy. This is what I wanted all the time. But it had to evolve to get here. Wayne, give these other guys a break. They are very opinionated as to their feelings about certain aspects of this hobby. Take their answers and do with them what you will. Your early posts were great! I believe 99% of them were civil. 8ut when you posted this disheartening thread, you left yourself wide open. Up until about five years ago, this site was always having jokes thrown about and everybody took them as a joke. I know many of these folks personally face to face on this site and we get together for some great times. Just "chill out" a little.


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

You're really taking one thing and treating it like another, I said confused in one post yes, but got some answers on that, then I asked some more, again is that not ok? Again and again ill say this post was about the fact people do lead off topic, argue against each other, and it can be disheartening. So far your the only one thats actually come across what I would say it quite aggressive. And again I dont want to just go out and buy something and be disappointed, making good chooses is what I want, so i will ask questions. Again I did not say I will go steam straight off, I just said i find it interesting and one day may do it, so will take that into account on my plans, which means asking questions, planning and making predetermined decisions, not jumping in. And i stated I saw in a lot of magazines, articles, videos and TV series people starting out on them, that is all. I have separated my questions, not everything I said in this post are my actual questions, just examples, to what my point of this post was about, that is all. Ive only asked 4 questions, what would experienced people say would suit my layout if there is such a thing and why, what would the cost of such a set up for blah blah blah be, and the question about manual switches, which have now all been answered except some general costs, and no Im not panicking about that before there ever is a thought on that, I dont need to, if its gonna cost me tens of thousands just to get started well yeah ok fine its rich mans game but I know its not that bad, school based teens run reasonable set ups, and I dont panic if it costs thousands as i know over time it will, I can spend as much or as little as I want. I just sold half my RC off for the fact I want a change and large scale trains is that change. And before theres a mention of well if you did that then you should have a budget, or have enough to spend so what are you worried about, again Ill say I dont know what to expect at all, and now you have said some price ok, but you also just did what I mentioned, told me to steer clear from toy stores, so I learned from a mistake, exactly like I said it should be (I already know to stay away from toy stores unless you know its a good deal) Like i said Ive been in a few hobbies that are meant to be expensive and I have proven quite a lot it doesnt need to be as expensive, and learning is what makes it fun for me, yes ill make mistakes but the less I can make the better, thats still learning them and fun. I dont think i need to chill, I said nothing wrong, I just stated something simple and I had to defend the fact that things where miss said or interpreted, that is all. No body is hurt, and you showed me something so thank you.


----------



## Cyborg1 (Jun 16, 2009)

Totalwrecker
Hello John , 

In response to your post I can only hope that I can also feel that this media (written word) sucks because I too have been misunderstood. Therefore, let me explain and clarify my post to you. I wrote four sentences of which the last two you apparently found offensive. The third sentence I wrote, "grown men; adults supposedly; acting like I don't know what over model trains". In your post you stated "thanks for the fine example of "talking down to all of us miscreants". John, I never called anyone any names nor used the word "miscreants". How and why you made that assumption or came to that conclusion is beyond me? Secondly, I wasn't " talking down" to anyone. I made a generalized statement; a statement that is true. Who participates in this forum? I have no specific numbers but I feel quite safe in saying 98% on this forum are adults and grown men. As for me stating "acting like I don't know what over model trains", let me ask this. How many times has the liberal and easy going moderators on this forum had to step in to get the situation under control? Intense, heated arguments leading to personal attacks.
I don't know why you are upset over the truth. My fourth and final sentence was "Get a Life". You asked, "How does exclamation 'Get a Life' denote civility" ----yes it is ironical'. Yes John, it would be ironical if you understood " Get a Life" as being an uncivil statement. This is how I understand the phrase, or better yet how I meant it. I used the phrase "Get a Life" as a synonym for "recognizing what's really important in life and not to sweat the small stuff". Family, health (your fight with cancer) employment (you losing your job) those are things that are really important. That's LIFE! Arguing over some inconsequential topic about model railroading is "sweating the small stuff'! The use of the exclamation point wasn't meant to shout but to add emphasis. I'm not really sure why you took my post as you did but it doesn't matter. What matters is that you know that I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. Last two things: hope your doing well and


Blessed Be To You Too
Joe


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Hrrmm ok


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Quote: I dont think i need to chill, I said nothing wrong, I just stated something simple and I had to defend the fact that things where miss said or interpreted, that is all. 

So you had to defend your response. Why, because people take things as they read it differently. 

Then Joe says, Quote: What matters is that you know that I didn't mean to offend you. Once again people take things as they read it differently. 

The longer this thread gets the crazier responses you're going to get as some read the last page of the thread and jump in stating their points of veiw on the subject without knowing everything that has been said in the whole thread. 

I still believe it all comes down to people with thin skin and those with thick skin. 

Those with thin skin typically find the negative in everything. Those with thick skin will over look most comments they think to be against their beliefs. Yes, there are those in the middle. 

In another thread about coal hoppers, Charles said a paticular photo posted wasn't appropriate to the discussion. I asked Charles how he came to that conclussion. To my knowledge, Charles didn't get offended by my questioning. He stated why he felt it wasn't a good choice. 

We all have to remember that this website has hobbist of different mind sets. 

There are those that simply feel their trains are mear toys. 

Then you have those that want everything exactly to scale as the prototype was. 

Me, I consider myself as being in the middle, but I'm sure the some of the rivit counters may well feel there is no middle ground in their mind. 

For me, I am having fun with what I have and that is what you should be doing.


----------



## gra2472 (Mar 1, 2009)

You are all acting like children, grow up. This is a public forum, its like being in the bar and having a conversation everybody can hear all at once and we all get a chance to respond. If you pose a question to the room you are opening yourself up to anything and everything that anybody has to say whether they agree with you or not. If you can't handle it or if you have thin skin stay away from open forums. I agree that there are some snarky people out there and many people take their hobby way to seriously but thats their business not yours or mine. There are things that I have done with my trains that people have criticized me for but this is art. It is meant to be creative and expressive of how you view the world. You do as you see fit and if somebody online in a public forum thinks you screwed up, big deal, suck it up and move on. These trains are toys and the level to which you want to play with them is your business, but remember that in the end this is a play thing meant to occupy otherwise wasted time. I think it important to remember too that some folks are better writers than others, and some have better communication skills of simply have more tact that others but the vast majority simply don't give a damn how you feel about what they say, they have their big boy pants on. Here's how it works; You ask, they answer, you live with the consequences of those answers. You have to own your question or topic and the answers you get whether they be good, bad, mean, sarcastic, or humorous. DON'T PUT YOURSELF OUT THERE IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE CRITICISM! Sure it sucks when I post a picture about something that I like but somebody else doesn't, but as far as I care they are expressing their opinion and they have a right to it. Everybody is a critic so live with it. If we remove the criticism and just go around telling ourselves we are wonderful and never voice our opinions than what is the point of being expressive? I hope somebody will like my railroad, but if they don't they can go suck eggs.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 11 Feb 2013 09:06 AM 
Quote: I dont think i need to chill, I said nothing wrong, I just stated something simple and I had to defend the fact that things where miss said or interpreted, that is all. 



In another thread about coal hoppers, Charles said a paticular photo posted wasn't appropriate to the discussion. I asked Charles how he came to that conclussion. To my knowledge, Charles didn't get offended by my questioning. He stated why he felt it wasn't a good choice. 

We all have to remember that this website has hobbist of different mind sets. 

There are those that simply feel their trains are mear toys. 

Then you have those that want everything exactly to scale as the prototype was. 

Me, I consider myself as being in the middle, but I'm sure the some of the rivit counters may well feel there is no middle ground in their mind. 

For me, I am having fun with what I have and that is what you should be doing. 


Randy
No offense taken or perceived as to our discussion on Berkshire/hoppers in the live steam section. I believe the better "educated" we are to our purpose of the hobby, the true nature of the "real" thing..railroads, along with getting to understand each other the better experience will we have with the hobby and MLS. Bottomline: you pay to play therefore NO ONE can tell anyone else what their version of the hobby should be!


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Cyborg Joe, 

"This media sucks when I think Joke and others read insult" 

I was not offended, I thought I was showing how your rant could be taken wrong. 

I was thinking Joke all the way through reading yours and answering. Ha ha. 
"Boy this is funny." See I even said it. 

Finally don't take yourself so seriously, do you really think it takes 2 paragraphs to set me straight? I fully understand the dynamics of written communications; very limiting... why didn't you ask if I was offended rather than assuming I was? 'cause everything after ...well think about it. 

Happy Rails 
John


----------



## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Ummm...I don't really have anything to say accept I am looking forward to building a new layout this spring/summer and have enjoyed reading alot of postings on this forum. 
So brace yourself...I may have plenty of stupid questions coming your way! 
Hopefully I can remember how I built my original layout 10+ years ago and things will go smoothly. 

Carry on...


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Im not even reading comments now, all I said was theres arguing and its a little off putting and I am now having the fact I asked a couple of questions in the beginners area twisted into something else. I dont even think that was misinterpretation of what I said, it was done deliberately. Saying I was a little confused on a subject, so I asked, got some answers then asked a bit more, I posted here because not just on my posts of asking questions but nearly every one had and argument between opinions, and on the third page of this one it really took off and became aggressive, the very thing I was addressing. I defended my self, why? I didnt need to, but to show those who did help me on here that I wasnt causing any trouble and my questions from another post were taken far from what was said. I only used things as an example of how they get taken away from what the person was asking. Ive had help, from tony, greg, and through emails. I post a question in beginners about some things on live steam and that some how was taken as a bad thing to do. Im just gonna keep looking as I see fit. Thanks for the help from every one who has. Maybe it will be a good idea to kill this thread as its gone far from what I had intended it to make it for.


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes,* please*, we all need a break from all this, so to help clear our minds, how about a quick round of *FIND THE KITTY?*

There's a kitty in this picture, your job FIND HIM


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Vic,

How's 'bout a higher resolution on the pic. I only have one eye!


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Center left, project a line up from gomez's head


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, I know that cat, he thinks he knows everything, and he was rude to me the other day.


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

At least someone is good at spotting a *****. Cat that is.


----------



## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 11 Feb 2013 05:38 PM 
At least someone is good at spotting a *****. Cat that is.  
And not all in the picture...........


----------



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

I hope Im not cat?! I couldnt tell if that was my house or not after the little one has finished for the day!


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

As I see nothing constructive coming out of this thread any longer, I'm going to wrap it up.


----------

