# canal question



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

most of you with a water feature are using some kind of a pump. My question is, is there anyone using a pumpless water feature?

I'm thinking of modeling a canal to go alongside the tracks. My guess is that the only downside would be cleaning out the algea. We live near a swamp so standing water and mosquitoes are everywhere anyway and a small canal will add infinitessimally to the misery


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The way to get rid of algae is to add other plants that out compete it. Water hyacinth, for example, will spread like mad and your water will be crystal clear, but you won't be able to see it. Underwater grasses, like "anacharis" (elodea canadensis) will also starve out algae, but they will fill up the water below the surface. With both plants, you need to thin them all the time to keep them from overwhelming the pond/canal. 



Pumps can remove algae by adding oxygen to the water--usually the pump operates a fountain of some kind and a filter. The fountain adds oxygen to the water which makes it less hospitable to algae. 


A body of still water with nothing in it is going to get nasty pretty fast, I think. One approach would be to have a streambed/canal which fills when it rains and the dries out. Look at the "Daisy Beach Railway" for a charming example (Daisy Beach)


Another alternative would be to have a recirculating pump but no fountain. The pump would pull water through a filter--simple foam, or a biological filter of some kind--and/or though a sealed,submersible UV light, which would sterilize the water. You can find these easily at pond supply places like lilypons. The actual filter/UV light part could be buried and it would move water through the canal, but visitors would not see it or know it if they weren't told.


On the other hand, canals are usually greenish brown and opaque in real life


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

thanks; suppose I could also add chlorine 

you've given me an idea similar to Daisy Beach. I think Pete's method is to use a garden hose to fill it

I could use concrete to model the canal, then fill it; since concrete is porous, it would then seep out in a few hours; enough time to run trains and enjoy the water view

thanks 


Dave V


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Chlorine would work: you could also get other chemicals that pond places sell--they make coagulants that cause particulate matter to clump up and sink. And they make a black die you can add to water--lots of large scale commercial ponds add this die. it makes the water look deep and it reduces light, restraining algae. 

Fill from the hose would be neat and easy 

For a long time I've wanted to model the potomac/ Shenandoah confluence at Harper's Ferry WV. The river is broad and shallow and rock there, and an arched RR viaduct goes over it. Couldn't talk my wife into it though


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

that would be nice; I live about 90 minutes from there in Manassas


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I can't really have standing water because I'm in open range and all the critters would smell it and come running! 
So mostly I model dry washes, very easily done with a hose and drying time. 

Yet the thought of running water still nags at me so my solution is to bury drip lines and only turn them on when running trains. Drip lines can have larger drippers that can deliver several gals an hour which should soak the ground enough to get flow all the way.... afterwards my washes are redone until next time I want water. Add a timer and all you do is start it... 

The UV lights kill algae but don't remove it, so it should be used with a filter. I have 2 at the Mansion where I'm the caretaker, work great. 

John


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## cephius (Jan 10, 2008)

I am also planning a canal between a lake and a harbor. Since I have no desire for water plants or fish, I plan to maintain the waterways like my swimming pool. Pump, skimmer, filter, and chlorinated water.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Birds will quickly find your canal and turn it into a birdbath. It will be a constant mess. Maybe you can install a gate valve at one end and drain it once done. 

-Brian


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Thanks, fellow canalers. 

Here's the picture that inspired me. I gleaned it from the 7/8 forum, might be Rob's? 

The drain could be a neat canal feature; fortunately, it is atop a small rise so gravity could take it away 










my canal would be much more modest than this classic


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Here's another elaborate one from 7/8 forum; i think might be Granite Chops?


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Brian:

but the hound will quickly find the birds


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I am in the process of building a canal based water feature. The original plan was to have one lock in it between the upper pool and the lower one. As I have been massaging the ground to get it to look right, the upper and lower pools are starting to look more and more like extensions of the canal, maybe with enough room for a dock at each end. 

One thought I just had while reading this topic is to put in a second lock, or partial lock that if I open the gates, the canal would drain into the the yard. Close the gates and it becomes possible to fill the lock and use a pump to move the water around. We are on city water so I have to be somewhat careful how much water I plan on using. 

Later I can add the larger pool for the canal to drain into and keep water in it if I so choose.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Tom, 

Actually, I've been thinking of this same concept earlier this morning and late yesterday. As is, i can build about 15' worth of canal because of constrictions of the trackplan and the house. If I were to build a series of locks, I might be able to do some climbing. There's a real elaborate boat lift canal in Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boat_lift that fits this bill but the thought was fleeting as it would be time consuming to create and I want something simple. 

I guess I'll have to do a Google on canal locks and how they work now. I'd like to control it manually. I think creating/ensuring a watertight seal would be the biggest challenge.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

You can see a canal lock in operation at the C&O canal park near DC. They run a boat in, fill or drain the lock, and run it out. Pretty cool to see, really, the boat drops by a lot.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Canals need a source of water at the high point, so a recirculating pump, garden hose, or something would have to come into play somehow. Its flow wouldn't have to be much--just enough to match the flow of the water through the canal, which would be limited by how watertight the locks are. The locks I'm most familiar with (along the Erie Canal) allow the water to flow either through them or around them to some extent just to make sure the system always has sufficient water in it. 

BTW, those are great pics! 

Later, 

K


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

An interesting drive home last weekend thru Western NY showed us some locks on an older Canal we'd never seen before 17 of them up thru a very narrow valley. They themselves were very narrow. I do not think I could have driven the SUv thru them? Pretty interesting. 

Chas


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Kevin, 

I was thinking about the locks more as a way to clean out the scum every so often


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I haven't yet made the locks but thought you might like to see the work in progress. I went with concrete and mortar design but made it unique by doing this 

concrete 

2 layers of 4 mil plastic 

concrete 

(sandwich)


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## Paulus (May 31, 2008)

Nice job! Looks good already!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

enough to match the flow of the water through the canal, which would be limited by how watertight the locks are. 

Not just locks. I've seen many canals (in the UK) which have a weir for 'overspill' - takes the excess water out and it falls into a local stream or river. I'm sure the US canals do the same 

So you could feed your canal from a waterfall and remove the water over a low weir into a pool. The canal becomes a very slow-moving stream. 













*"Overspill weir from the Grand Union Canal 
The Grand Union Canal is beyond the towpath footbridge on the red girder on the right. Water flows out of the canal, under the footbridge, and over the weir into the River Colne."*


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

thanks and thanks for the idea which I'll definitely consider!


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I've got some ideas for major canal expansion throughout the yard. I went to Lowe's the other day and found their garden section stocked with a product called Smart Pond 

http://www.smart-pond.com/ 

None of their liners are the dimensions I need, namely, about 2 feet wide and 30 feet long. They are all made for ponds (as the name of the company implies), not for narrow streams or canals. 

The cost of their products are extremely affordable. 

Since I'm not exposing the liner to the elements (it will be sandwiched in concrete), I don't need the extreme top quality stuff that's more expensive. 

OK, so here's my question. I'm considering purchasing their 9X16 foot liner and cutting into strips for the canal. 

The strips will need to be joined, perhaps at the lock where there's a dropdown (I plan to make a very slight lip on the lock so the water cascades over it and makes sound. Will there be a problem at the joints, or are the tapes and glues made by that company or other companies pretty reliable? 

Here's the info on their liner: 

Collect 
Large Pond Skins® Pond Liner 

Model# PL1320 
Lowe's Item# 62491 

For Large ponds (9 ft. x 16 ft.) 
Our Pond Skins ® Pond Liner is the best and comes with our limited lifetime warranty. Pond Skins ® is easy to install, fish safe, puncture and UV resistant, with reinforced mesh construction. It is also stronger than normal PVC and lighter than EPDM. 


Thanks! Appreciate any input! I sent the company an email as well.

Dave V


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

just spoke to a rep and a tech there. They said PVC glue to attach strips. 

They advised against sandwich of concrete; instead, suggesting the underlay first (I'm using carpet), atop which would be their liner, and then atop it all could be concrete.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I've got 45 or so feet of canal finished; here's the lower 15 feet of it; still very much under construction, but you can see the pump is putting out. My biggest mistake was making the intake pond where the pump sits too small 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeBLo4Ba8co


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## Paulus (May 31, 2008)

Working link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeBLo4Ba8co 

Those canals look good. 
Funny odd looking engine btw!


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Please excuse me, I have to pee now!


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## Paulus (May 31, 2008)

Just a completely different question: How do you make your (32mm?) tracks? What do you use for rail? How does the wood hold with rain etc.? 
I watched your other movies on Youtube and I like your work. It's fun to see how you bash those cheap toytrains into models. 
And that single point switch is just superb! Simple but effective!!


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

thanks; I currently have 332 brass for the mainline; 250 alum for a branch line; and am running 250 steel for a very very lightly used branch that will run to the upper reaches of the canal, where a train will haul canal boats into the water. I use 1/2" wire nails for spikes and embed most of the track in hypertufa; I started using cedar, but I found that PT wood holds up good too. I used to stain the ties with oil, but I found that if there's good drainage, the wood will last for years; some of it is approaching 10 years and the spikes are still holding fast. Here are some shots of other portions, including an overall. I purchased a rain barrel, but right now, the rain gutter is feeding the canal. If you look very very closely in the first photo, you'll see the white rain gutter in extreme upper left of photo. All those boards laying around were used as forms to haul the concrete. Ask me how I fee now about lugging dozens of bags of 80# concrete around


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## Paulus (May 31, 2008)

Thanks! PT Wood, that is a smart idea. I must try to find that in little strips to get the right size (I'm try to build my own Gn15 track...) 
That overall picture gives a good idea of the canals, very impressive!


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

just remember; good drainage; IOW, don't get soil near it; gravel (crusher), hypertufa, concrete OK; in my experience. 

Also, it smells nasty when you cut it & should be cut outside b/c of VOX fumes


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