# Brand New Guy



## adfundum (Oct 26, 2013)

OK, I inherited a massive G Scale collection from my generous uncle. I have three boys and I feel I have to build this to be a good father. I have read tons on the subject. I plan on having 10 feet plus curves but I need a lot of track. I want to build my own using aluminum track and IPE wood. I was thinking of grooving the ties and epoxying the aluminum into the grooves instead of spiking. I will use this outside. Any thoughts? Also I need to know the best way to mechanically connect. Norms model supply had a pretty cool jig that looked promising and was fairly robust. Also, I heard that I should not try to bend curves for exterior track as the thermal issues (Michigan) will cause it to deform. Should I buy my curves?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Do you mean aluminum rail track or flat extrusion? 
Ip'e or 'Brazilian Walnut' is twice the hardness of Hickory. Have you tried ripping some ties yet? 
Bending/rolling the extrusion first will be fine but you will need expansion joints/gaps and perhaps let the track float to some degree. 
If it's flat extrusion, it can work but can also have the habit of creeping out of the tie slot. 

Andrew


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I heard that I should not try to bend curves for exterior track as the thermal issues (Michigan) will cause it to deform. 
Don't know where you heard that, but as Andrew says, it isn't true. The major issue is thermal expansion if you tie the track down to rigidly. Make sure it can float or move a bit. 
It is much easier to bend the rails (with a rolling rail bender so you get smooth curves) before you lay the track. I had 'sample' curves drawn on my workbench so I could tell when I got to the curve I wanted. 

aluminum track and IPE wood. I was thinking of grooving the ties and epoxying the aluminum into the grooves 
If you are planning to use aluminum rail, it won't fit in grooves very deeply. Flat bar stock will let you cut a groove and put it much further in. Brass code 332 (= .332" tall) could be glued in a deeper slot. 

I used redwood as it is highly rot-resistant outdoors and easy to cut. 

You might find it easier to buy some second-hand track. There should be cheap Aristo track at the dealers.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I would worry about repeated freeze/thaw cycles, especially when the wood is wet, weakening the bond between the wood and the epoxy. I have never heard of anyone laying track with epoxy. You are new to the hobby. My recommendation is to start with sectional track. With time and experience, then experiment with other options. Get a small loop up and running and enjoy it. Chuck


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with Chuck..making your own track from scratch is *not* a great way to start out, when you are brand-new to the hobby.. 
There are people who do hand-lay their own track, outdoors, but that's a fairly "advanced" bit of model building.. 

starting out with commercially made track is a much better way to go IMO.. 
start small, see how you like it, then you can decide later if you want to expand with home-made track or not.. 
but dont start out with home-made track right from the start.. 

Scot


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## Smelly_Cat (Oct 21, 2013)

Tracks not to hard, there is a guy in Austraila on Youtube making track out of aluminum strips for like a buck a foot. He makes his own trains too. I'm making track out of copper house trim from salvage HW store, for 10 bucks for 12 feet of track. Rip a treated board to size , nail the metal to the sides. I'm thinking on trying some track out of galvilized house trim. SC


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Some people ballast their track so it does not fully float as such but they still have gaps so the rail can expand. The subject of solid mounting track is much debated. The rails are able to slide through the plastic ties when they expand though which probably explains why some have no problems with buckling. If you are relying on an interference fit or epoxy to hold your flat rails in tie slots they theoretically can't move so may end up with the glue dislodging from the surface of the aluminum if the ties are not entirely free to move or 'float'. Each time the rail expands and contracts they could slowly 'creep' out of the slots. 

I don't think epoxy will make much of a difference as long as the flat is a tight fit in the slot. For the flat rail in slots idea to work I think it is more important to let your ties fully move with the expanding rail rather than assuming that glue will hold considering the forces of expansion/contraction and the little surface area involved. 

Check out the link below, this idea seems to work but the flat rail is attached to a sub board which would stop it from creeping up. There is still the issue of expansion though.
Homemade Aluminum G-scale Track 

This guy in Australia does it but bolts the track down every few feet in some parts because the ties tend to eventually fall off the rails. 
The Sandstone & Termite Railway 

Andrew


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## adfundum (Oct 26, 2013)

Thanks for the insight. What I have taken away from this is homemade track is a maintenance nightmare and brass does not tend to oxidize as much as aluminum if using electric. So I am gravitating going to battery powered with the locomotives so as not to deal with conductivity issues outside.

Any ideas on a good source besides ebay for used or inexpensive track? I have 15 loco's and about 30 rolling stock so I want a large layout. Right now projections are at 400'.

Also, any good links on converting existing locos to battery/wireless? I was thinking of making a Battery box car and then rewiring the locomotives to accept power from the boxcar instead of the rails. I could use a simple R/C speed controller.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By adfundum on 28 Oct 2013 08:19 AM 
Thanks for the insight. What I have taken away from this is homemade track is a maintenance nightmare and brass does not tend to oxidize as much as aluminum if using electric. So I am gravitating going to battery powered with the locomotives so as not to deal with conductivity issues outside.

Any ideas on a good source besides ebay for used or inexpensive track? I have 15 loco's and about 30 rolling stock so I want a large layout. Right now projections are at 400'.

Also, any good links on converting existing locos to battery/wireless? I was thinking of making a Battery box car and then rewiring the locomotives to accept power from the boxcar instead of the rails. I could use a simple R/C speed controller. 

adfundum (name?),

Sounds like you have seen that homemade track can be a problem, especially for someone thinking off laying 400 feet of track.

On this forum and many others, when debating how to power our trains, sometimes it turns into a "war". There are strong "believers" on all sides and every one has its pros and cons......trackpower, DCC and battery/wireless. That said, I can tell you where I sit with power. About thirty years ago, I started with trackpower and an LGB Mogul (2018D) and about a dozen cars (all LGB), both freight and passenger. My first outdoor layout was a shade over 100 feet. All brass LGB. For the first year or two, everything ran great. I was pretty happy with it. Then came the corrosion issues with rail joiners and soldered connections to the rail for power. I also had a reversing loop that was a pain to wire and control. That distracted from the running of the trains. A couple of years after these distractions, I left the garden rr hobby.

Fast-forward to late 2006, I again became involved in the hobby, attracted to Fn3 finescale narrow gauge Colorado railroading. AND this time I needed to find a better way to control these trains. I talked to an old friend (a member on MLS and old childhood friend) about how he powered his stuff. His is all battery and wireless. I was sold and I have been doing it ever since. I use code 250 aluminum rail from Sunset Valley Railroad on their NG ties. I also use their turnouts (the best around IMHO). I bend my own curves with a dual-rail bender. Power is provided by batteries in the tenders of each locomotive. I'm all steam, NO diesels. But batteries can be added to each diesel as well. Very easy. My locos are controlled by wireless using Airwire controllers and motion decoders. The reason I use batteries in each tender and not a battery car, is that if you are running a passenger train, it looks a little weird (to me) to have a box car in with the passenger cars. But by having the batteries in each loco, it can be pricey especially in your case with 15+ engines. If you are electrical "saavy", then you keep the cost down by doing it yourself. I am NOT, so I have someone do my installations.

You said you have three boys.........aluminum tack can be bent easily under the feet of young kids. If they are older, then it shouldn't be a problem. Even brass rail can bend underfoot, though not as easily.

Well....that's MY story and I'm stickin' to it.


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## Pete Chimney (Jan 12, 2008)

Gary

Agreed, aluminum track can be easily deformed or bent when stepped on or otherwise pushed-knocked-hit from above. I am 6' 3" and weigh on a good day about 245 lbs. I have walked on my LGB code 332 brass track, which is well ballasted, and there is no bendfing or other deformation of the brass rails.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with Gary, in that there are a lot of opinions out there as to power choices. No one type is ideal for everyone and all situations. 

I have been using track power on my outdoor layouts (Colorado and now Virginia, and Arizona) for over 30 years. I have a mixture of LGB and Aristo code 332 brass track. For power I am using a Bridgewerks power supply with a keyfob (RC) remote for stop, start, speed, and direction. It permits me to walk around and not be at the controller. If you are using track power you need secure joins between the rail sections, as Gary said. Because over time the flexing of the track through temperature changes loosens the original joiners and you loose connectivity. There are three different systems that I use and they are all secure: rail clamps, and two different systems with screws.

One screw system is to use 0-80 bolt and nuts. A small hole is drilled through the rail and the rail joiner with a 1/16 inch drill. The bolt is inserted from the inside through the rail with the nut being secured on the outside. The bolt head is small enough that it doesn't make contact with the wheel flanges.























The second method uses #4 self tapping stainless steel screws. I drill a hole down through the joiner and the foot of the rail on the outside at an angle of about 45 degrees. I put a little conducting grease on the screw and tighten it down. 



















Both of these methods are secure, but take a little more work than rail clamps. They are much less expensive.

I have three locomotives that have battery and RC. One standard gauge and two narrow gauge steamers. One of the ng engines (Accucraft K-28) has a NiMH battery and receiver in the tender. The other two have the battery and receiver in the trailing car. I did this so that I can easily remove or exchange the battery when it needs charging. Both of these are Li-ion batteries. If there is a problem during charging I would rather not have it in an engine. I'm not worried about having a box car behind the engine in front of a string of passenger cars, because there is often a head end, non-passenger car on a train. 

Aristo Mallet with battery car and heavyweight passenger train. 










Bachmann K-27 with battery car and Accucraft passenger cars. 










One of the main reasons I use battery is so I can run on other layouts, that don't have track power.

Talk with people in your local area and see what they use and why. You need to ask questions, before you jump into a technology. My recommendation has always been to start with a small analog DC set up outside and see what you like and don't like. You will be better prepared for the power decision a little further down the road.

Chuck


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Let me add a bit of engineering data to Pete's comments above. Personally I thing aluminum is a fine material for garden railways. It is far less expensive than brass or stainless steel, for the most part easier to work and I don't mind the silverish appearance. Now to the facts. First I will define the parameters you set forth above. You are in Michigan, so we will get some extremes in both cold and heat. So for this discussion let's assume the coldest in the winter is -20 deg F., and the summer heat PLUS the radiant heat of the sun is say 150 deg F. for a total temperature variation of 170 degrees. For simplicity sake, let's assume that your track will be a single loop of 400 feet in length. And last let's dig up the coefficients of expansion for the three primary track materials. The coefficient represents the unit of growth per unit of length per degree of temperature rise. 

Aluminum = 0.0000123 
Brass - 0.0000104 
Stainless Steel 0.0000080 * 

* Assuming a lower grade of stainless steel at Austenitic (310) 

Now for the math. 170 degrees temperature rise * 400 feet length * 0.0000123 = 0.8364 feet of growth over the total temperature range, or *12 = 10.0368 inches. This means somehow you need to compensate for 10.03 inches of growth somewhere. As stated above, floating the track in ballast (just like the prototype) is the simplest and in my opinion the cheapest. Yes this method will require some periodic maintenance (just like the prototype) to keep the track in line and level without humps and sags. Keep in mind, expansion will not be denied, it will go somewhere. On one of the many fora I read there is a post showing where the track was secured too tightly and the rails ripped out of the tie strips and bowed vertically. 

As for aluminum rail, there are a couple of vendors selling aluminum rail and track products. I don't have personal experience with Micro Engineering, but I do have samples, and have spoken to Switch Crafters, and their product is top notch. Bruce also sells a variety of track products such as tie strips, spikes, a spiker (for handlaying track - very well reviewed), turnouts in a variety of sizes and more. Check them out at www.switchcrafters.com (I have no affiliation with them, just know them to be a reputable vendor). 

From my FWIW department. 

Bob C.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

400ft, that's only the beginning of a large RR. 
How much room do you have and have you seen a working GRR? 
Or do you have any small scales in your back ground? 
So no track or switches came with it?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Seeing how you are leaning towards battery power then Aluminum rail would be the way to go. No need for fancy jointers as you will not be concerned with continuity. Just remember if you choose to use the floating track method to lay the track in the heat of the summer. The rail then has expanded to it's limits so one will now lay the rail tight to take in for contraction in cooler weather. A good ballast section will prevent the track from extreme rail movement. To many folks have tended to think by removing the screws that hold the rails to the ties makes it better how ever the purpose of the screws is like on the prototype it acts like rail anchors. So by removing you now cause excessive rail movement.

Seeing how you have a fair amount of motive power staying with several battery cars will be the cheapest way to go. I chose to do DCC which gives me the flexibility in operations also. I do have all SS track which now is not cheap but never really needs cleaning. So the bottom line is do your home work and you will be happy in the long run. Later RJD


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Welcome aboard!!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

[duplicate post deleted]


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

No matter the power choice of analog, digital, battery, I have found that wireless outdoors is the only way to go. 

And even indoors it is great to be able to control trains from anywhere. 

And if troubleshooting an issue, wireless lets you be right on top of where the problem is occurring.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

RJD, I disagree. Secure rail joiners help keep the rails together. Regular joiners can and do work loose. Dr. Rivet's layout is for steam and battery. Before every event he hosts we have to go out and check the track. We always find gaps there the joiner is on only one of the two rails and the gap is open enough to cause a derailment. Chuck


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

For those of you doing track power, with the screws in the rail joiners, (or using rail clamps) 
how do you deal with rail expansion/contraction? 
Do you cut some gaps and solder flexible wires to bridge the gap? 

Scot


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## docwatsonva (Jan 2, 2008)

I use rail clamps. My track floats so my corners take up all the expansion/contraction. Never have seen more than a 1/4 " of movement as noted by the gaps in the ballast caused by the track pushing out slightly.

I live in Wetern NC and have no shade. It can get into the 90's during the summer months and 20's in the winter once in a while.

On one long mainline straightaway, I have a switch at each end for a passing siding. I installed a Hillman expansion section in the middle. I did this because the section between the switches is essentially locked.

Never had a track issue related to expansion/contraction.

Doc


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot, my track floats on ballast. I have never had any problems. The track just migrates with the temperature. Chuck


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## adfundum (Oct 26, 2013)

I thank all of you for your courteous and helpful input. This is where I am at today after hours of research: 

I looked at Sandstone and Termite Railroad (http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/satr/track.htm) and noted that he gave up on the Aluminum flat bar due to conductivity and and separation of the ties from the rail after a few seasons. I found another site who was using very large trains but the concept was still there (http://www.narrowgauge.iform.com.au/track.html) and (http://www.narrowgauge.iform.com.au/newtrack.html). 

I was not totally excited about converting my locomotives to battery as I have 14 of them and it adds another layer of complexity so I gravitated back towards powered rails. I spoke with the owner of Sunset Valley and he was very helpful. He expressed his concern of using aluminum as his product was coated against corrosion and would offer poor conductivity. He expressed it would be ok in the short term but problems would develop. This made me think that Aluminum should not be used with rail power. 


I have identified the following concerns and am going to mock up a test track based on my research: 

Rails: I intend on using 1/8" x 1/2" Stainless Steel for the rails. This decision came from conductivity issues and the less thermal expansion/contraction issues. I will chamfer 45 Degrees and then weld the track together or cut vertically and mechanically fasten with 4 thru bolts and plates on either side of the flat bar. 

Ties: I do not want to deal with rail separation or rot so I am exploring a paintable PVC material or Hardi-Plank. Both man made materials that are paintable and purchased thru a home store. If these don't work I will go with cedar or redwood soaked in a solution of roofing tar cut with diesel at a 1 to 5 ratio. 

Affixing Rail to Ties: I plan on cutting slots to receive the rails and then flipping the track upside down and using a chamfer bit with a 30 degree angle to cut thru the tie until it reaches the bottom side of the rail. I will then tack weld from below creating a puddle of weld filling up the cone shape. This will permanently bond the tie to the rail. 

Ballast: I plan on ballasting the rail bed. 

After I complete the mock up I will post pictures and inform the community which method I think will work the best or if I have been beaten and will have to buy commercial track.


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