# Military Narrow Gauge



## Big65Dude (Jan 2, 2008)

I have noticed that many of us with a passion for railroad history, operations and modeling also have an interest in military history - if not, in deed, all history. So, as I was surfing the net the other day looking for pix of World War II armor, I came across this clipping from what was apparently a war-time British newspaper or magazine. It immediately occurred to me that this is the perfect juxtaposition of military and railroad history with an immensely appealing potential for modeling.

This was published probably sometime in 1940, when there was a very real and constant danger of Dieppe-like raids in the opposite direction by German commandos, not to mention a full-fledged Nazi invasion of England. So, in spite of the "cutesy" tone of the writer, this was serious stuff and not taken lightly at the time.


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

The RH&D happens to run along the beach where Operation Sea Lion would have landed had the Royal Air Force not survived the Battle of Britain. The line was frequently attacked by the Luftwaffe - the German pilots may not have recognized the line as being 15" gauge - and the armored train was credited with bringing down at least two German planes. Later the line was instrumental in moving materials to build PLUTO, or Pipeline Under The Ocean, to move fuel from England to France during the later part of the war.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

That's right, where do we enlist the expert scratchbuilders to make some miniature machine guns? Working, of course!


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## Robert (Jan 2, 2008)

Very interesting in part because of the unusal use of the former pleasure train. Thanks for the post.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

the line as being 15" gauge 
So we could make a model using Gn15 at 1:22.5 and run on HO track ? Or maybe use our G-1 trackand make it in 1:8th scale (otherwise known as 1 1/2" scale.) There must be a few tanks in that scale with decent guns that we can use?


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Pete 

Decker's Trains has stuff for 15 inch gauge at 1 1/2in/ft scale. Sir Aurthur Heywood prototypes IIRC.


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## chama (Jan 2, 2008)

To be clear, the RH&D Railway STILL runs along the beach near Dover.

I rode it 6 years ago and it was amazing.

Here's their web site: http://www.rhdr.org.uk/


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Guys;

Humor me on this observation. I just noticed that the "guns" in that photo had a relatively large bore and a relatively thin barrel. I know the photo caption states they are machine guns, but they look more like some kind of rocket launcher to me. Anybody have more information on those "guns?"

Thanks, David Meashey


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dave 

Here is a description of the "machine guns". Those are the long thin barreled weapons in the picture. 
==> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_anti-tank_rifle 

If I can get to my RH&D books in my library I will look and see if there is a description of the short barreled weapon that looks to be about 30mm.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Dave, while I' m not sure it's the case here, many maching guns had water jackets over the barrels for cooling. The second gun from the right hand corner pointing upwards appears to have a rod holding up the extra weight.... 
Rockets were still infants then.... 

John


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Jim;

The narrow-barreled weapons do resemble machine guns. The others with the wide bore and the thin barrel wall look more like some kind of launcher. Could be rockets or grenades. Not sure, but there seem to be at least two of them (possibly 3) in the photo.

Yours, David Meashey


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

John; 
Actually the Brits were already using rockets in the War of 1812. There is a reference to it in our national anthem. Rockets that used heat or radar sensing to hone in on their target were still not developed by WWII, but I suppose a rocket that could be aimed from a launcher would still be able to down fighter aircraft.

The water-cooled machine guns I am familiar with still had a short amount of gun barrel projecting beyond the cooler, but I won't rule out a model that hid the gun barrel. Hopefully somebody with the right reference or expertise can clarify what the large bore weapons on that train are.

I have a book on armored trains, but it only covers upwards from 3 foot gauge.

Best,
David Meashey


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## Big65Dude (Jan 2, 2008)

This is from Wikipedia:


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dave 

My RH&D reference explicitly reference the Boys anti-tank rifle that is shown in the picture. I think Jack identified the second weapon correctly. Can't say I am an expert in British armor as I only served as a gunner and tank commander on M48 and M60 medium tanks.


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## Big65Dude (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim,

I was just coming back with this, also from Wikipedia. 

The long-barreled weapon mounted just behind the Lewis gunner in the foreground is a *Boys Anti-Tank Rifle*. It was a bolt-action, magazine-fed (five rounds) weapon that fired a heavy (47.6 gram) .55 cal (14.3mm) round at high velocity that was capable of penetrating much of the relatively light armor of tanks and AFVs of the time. It was reported to have a **** of a kick and muzzle-blast when fired.










It also looks like there's another one mounted on the farthest car as well. With the armored locomotive in the middle and identical (but reversed) armored cars on each end, the train could "attack" in either direction. Makes sense.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like Jack has the answer. The taper on that barrel end cover is evident on the closest gun in the photo. Thanks to all who helped.

Best, David Meashey


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Jack 

Not to be picky [ like Greg E] but that is the link I posted earlier this morning.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

but I won't rule out a model that hid the gun barrel. 
Incidentally, I did a brief Google and found that tank models are quite common in 1/6th and 1/8th scale. Usually models of WWII armour, so the guns would work on a 1.5" scale train. 

I also found a discussion about making working guns (I expectedt to find one !) Paint ball guns are one avenue, or real guns firing blanks seem to have been developed.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like you got the armament of the train correct.

Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch Railway - Armoured train[/b]


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 14 Feb 2013 03:24 PM 
Looks like you got the armament of the train correct.

Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch Railway - Armoured train[/b]


Let's see if we can post the photo from Steve's link.












There's a LOT of pics, old and new (including another of the armoured train,) on this page:

Warren Press Article [/b]


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

OK. So while I'm trying to get to sleep last night, I'm mulling over the size/scale issues of a model running on g-1 track.

First, it struck me that it isn't eactly 1:8th or 1.5" scale - more like 1:8.5. But who's quibbling.

Then I wondered what scale the trains were. 1/4 full size looked reasonable, but I did find a couple of references to 1/3rd. As a typical Gresley Pacific (which was the prototype for many of their engines) is 13' tall, the 1/3 looks more reasonable. Especially when you look at this photo:














So 1/3rd of 13' is 52", so standing on the footplate the loco would reach up to your waist. Looks good!

And thus we need a 1:8th scale model of a 1:3rd scale model (= 1:24th scale) running on g-1 track. Could be tricky. . . 

I then recalled the Aristo Pacific, which is 1/29th, and that the loco needs an armoured cover. Looks like an easy conversion !


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