# Concrete Roadbed - Help



## BalsaBob (Oct 21, 2013)

Hello, I am about to start my layout and plan (I think) to use some concrete roadbed in many areas. I will be making some straight pieces and curved pieces (using forms). I expect to make the concrete pieces probably around 5 inches wide and about 4-5 inches high. A few questions ....

Does the track end up lying on the roadbed .... or should there be a thin layer of ballast between the concrete and the track ?

I saw a layout in a magazine that used some concrete roadbed (similar to what I described above) and the builder embedded some wood blocks in it so the track could be secured to the wood blocks. Wondering if the wood blocks are necessary ? Are they a good idea ?

Thanks. Bob


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Bob,

Being of the concrete roadbed persuasion, I applaud your choice, haha!

I made mine 4" wide x approx 4" deep, with rebar running down the center. Track fastening is based on a method that I believe JJ (also a concrete guy, whose advice has been really helpful) came up with, and it's real simple. Lay the track; hammer-drill a hole between a couple ties; tap in a plastic screw anchor; and screw down a piece or hold-down wire that has a loop in it. I'll see if I can find the thread, if someone else doesn't beat me to it. JJ uses reusable steel forms.

Marty Cozad, a pioneer in the field and a brother-in-crete, wrote up a nice article that may still be available here, we'll see if I or someone can link to that... He uses wood forms. [edit: still can't find it...]

My own journey involved tight geometry in a confined space. My method of forms involved reusable doubled 4" strips of masonite. Can't find it, but I'll keep poking.
[edit: found it]
http://forums.mylargescale.com/16-track-trestles-bridges-roadbed/19361-finally-doing-roadbed.html

A related thread:
http://forums.mylargescale.com/16-t...1-roadbed-ala-marty-cozad-dennis-sirrine.html


Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My experience has been thus:

If you really screw the track down tight to the surface you have chosen, you can do it without ballast between the ties and track.

But my experience is also that down really tight, immovable, does not last and usually pulls ties apart as the track expands and contracts.

if you loosely secure the track to the surface, some ballast will work it's way between the surface and the ties... as the track expands and contracts with the temperature changes, a little gap opens, a bit of ballast works in, and bit by bit you get at least one layer of ballast.

I think ultimately this is the better case.

Greg


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

Everything has to flex with the weather. Mine sits on about a 1/4 inch of ballast where I'm using concrete sub-roadbed.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Everyone has there own ideas! So you have to go with the one that works for you. All the layouts I seen with concrete roadbed, the track was right on the concrete.


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

I'm on concrete too, and just ballasting. Unless your concrete is more perfect than mine (which wouldn't be hard  ) you're going to wind up with ballast under the ties as you level everything out. Although I leveled and screeded my concrete roadbed, there are a couple of spots that for whatever reason are 1/4 inch out. To level those "perfectly" I ballasted and then gently lifted and shook the track, allowing some ballast to settle under the ties. This resulted in "more level" track than if the ties lay directly on the concrete. In places where it's level just sitting on concrete, I left it that way.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

If you anchor your track to the concrete, do it every 4-5'. It must have room to flex with heat and cold.

I knew someone in Denver who had his track anchored about every foot. One hot day he came out and found much of his rail had separated from his ties.

Chuck


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

I used concrete roadbed in some areas, and embedded a layer of ballast (#9 rock) in the concrete, then put about inch of ballast on top of that and float track on that. No fasteners anywhere, I find it works well. Keeps ballast sinking to center of earth problem away.....and problems reported with fastened track now and then. Good luck

Jerry


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob,
What is the climate like where you live? Battery power or track power?


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I am the one Cliffy is talking about. My concrete road bed is over 13 years old. At one time I lost interest in my Rail Road. I neglected it for 2 years. When I decided to play with it again all I had to do was clear the weeks that grew next to the concrete and it was ready to run. I run battery power. 

Here is a link to my thread on Ballasting and Anchors.

What I do is not for everybody. But The Way I anchor my track holds the track firm but leaves it able to move if it has to. 

http://forums.mylargescale.com/16-track-trestles-bridges-roadbed/17137-ballisting-track.html

My biggest problem is I live in AZ and the sun eats my ties. I buy Flex ties to fix the one that fall a part

Look at a thread in this forum that is title Working on the NR&WGRR.

You can see my latest escapade making carbarns so I don't have to haul my rolling stock in and out of the shop 

Extreme as some of the stuff I do I hope you can get Ideas. 

Ask me any questions and I will try to answer them 

JJ


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## Mike Gibson (Feb 8, 2013)

I’m using concrete roadbed as well. I’m only about half finished but on what I have done the track is just sitting on the roadbed, and isn’t fastened down in any way. The only restraint I have is in the tunnel where the track is sitting in a concrete groove so it doesn’t slide over to the tunnel wall. I also haven’t put down any ballast yet. I’ve been running a few trains on this since last summer and no issues with the track moving around. This is my first attempt at concrete roadbed, and not to mention garden railways in general, so I’m still learning.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi there:
My track is now over thirty years old and is fixed on a concrete base. There have been many photos made on my track in this forum which you can see in the rolling stock and live steam forums. What I did was to use preconstructed concrete road borders for a double track base. This permits to check both the longitudinal and the transversal level when laying it down. My track is installed in very clayish soil which means that it can be subject to ground heave in winter if frost sets in for long. I did a concrete side strip which actually serves as a rail joiner between the Concrete borders, to make this base follow the tracks large curves and keeps the ever present grass at a proper distance. This was done with a steel flat of about three inch width and 1/4" thickeness which is held on the side of the concrete borders with wood pegs while the concrete is poured between it and the borders. I have used cheap plastic plugs drilled into the ballast at around one foot intervals and then use brass screws to hold the track down. With roots, frost heave this has moved about somewhat and required some adjustment including cutting away some borders with a diamond disc to realign locally joints which developped a jump, in level. But this is after 37 years of some sections. In some places I have needed to use some tar bands made for roof leaks to raise the track a few milimeters, in other ballast does the job. ZAdjusting the screws and holes in the ties is quite a tedious job and one must continue to improve alignements over the years. If the screws are too tight the track tends to have a hogback patern reminicent of Penn Central days, so adjustment here is needed also. In our climate the big current problem is the constant fight against moss. Especially since my inner main is handlaid with wood ties. Also keep in mind that my layout is made with scale rail code 215 on the inner handlaid track and code 250 (Tenmille FB rail) on the outer. I mention this because there is much less distortion on the Tenmille, heavier rail, so with bigger rail section, what I just said about hogback profile just may not be an issue. With live steam the track geometry has to be controlled, you can have the innertia of certain locos at speed actually tug a track out of alignment if it is not fixed properly. A live steam express engine if it uncouples accidently from it's train at speed can really transform itself into a missil. All my pointwork except one is handmade and around N° 8 points on the main line. For the reason above. This makes for real smooth operation and looks so much more realistic. Recently I have been influenced by some of my British friends to do a great deal of trackwork not to prevent derailments (that was already the case long ago) but to have smooth realistic train movements along the track, I hate to see the front bogie of an engine chase from side to side under the drag beam, like a gogo dancer. I think that paying attention to these details makes for a much more realistic train movement enhancing the realism of the pike. Visitors tell me you haven't done anything new this year but when I point out to them all these finer points and refinments they see the light.


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## BalsaBob (Oct 21, 2013)

Thank you all very very much for the responses and great information.

Paul, I live in the Boston area and will be using battery power.

Bob


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