# Why would I want anything but on-board battery r/c?



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Just came in.
7-1/2 hours straight ops.
Leaves. Pine needles. Pine cones. DIRT. Slugs (not just slug tracks).
Ballast splashed on rails.
RAIN.

Never once had any issues with connectivity.

At $20 for six feet of aluminum track, I cannot imagine brass or stainless.
I have one pair of clamps that are not for bridge removal, rather to hold a 4" chunck in alignment/
With 1500' of track, the cost of rail clamps would kill me off.
No wiring to the rails.
No conductive paste in joiners.

No power supplies nor controllers for same.

The only 110V needed tonight was for the air switches (2) and coffee pot.
And the air charge lasted 7 hours.

No programming tracks.
No cheat sheets to get soaked in the rain.
No computers (if for no other reason than to read the "digitalmentation").

No smoke got released from any components.
Never had any issues with headlights blinking.

NO optical chuff triggers.

Nobody telling me my smoke units wouldn't work because my decoders have a pin cut.
Heck, I yank them stupid things out anyway.

No sign-up sheets for the next Seminar or log-in infor for user groups.

And, search as we might, we just couldn't find any track cleaning cars in the terminal.

Bummer.

I mean, look at all we missed out on by only turning the locos on and running trains for 7-1/2 hours.

I think I should buy 1500' of stainless.
Buy 80+ stainless turnouts.
Enought rail clamps to connect it all.
Lay a thousand feet of cabling.
Buy at least four boosters.
Buy a control station suitable for 20 operators, and current enough that I don't have to "upgrade" for at least a year.
Buy 20 handpieces (for the 20 operators), replace all my throttles and sound systems with sound decoders that only handle an amp.
Buy decoders for all the turnouts, and provide all the necessary bit to make even the air switches function.

Buy a track cleaning car, schedule it into regular wayfreights to keep the tracks clean.

Assign one person per ops session to maintain pickups and wheel cleanliness.
Assign another to deal with turnout connectivity issues of the 80+ turnouts (at least).
Assign one person to assist with re-programming decoders, and adding rectifiers where needed.
Assign another with a laptop to access all the "digitalmentation".

Pretty soon I'll have everyone maintaining, and nobody will run trains.

Maybe we can all just buy TrainSim, sit in the shop with our laptops, and "pretend".


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Two words... Live Steam.







One of these days you'll play with the big boys. hehehe







Then again... maybe not.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Got live steam. 
Two of them, both Asters. 

VERY difficult to run wayfreight ops on 4% grades with them. 

Downhills can get interesting with a long train. 

Unless I "slam it into reverse just like the prototypes".


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

well, some of your items I would take exception to, like the smoke unit example, so if you don't use them, then why bring up the point? The track power guy can turn it off and you guys are equal. 

But let's not dwell on the obvious exceptions, I know you are passionate Dave. 

I would answer your question: 

You have made a very good case for battery power, and especially in adverse conditions. 

So why would you consider anything else: 

Well, what if you wanted to run long trains for hours and hours... not all locomotives can hold enough battery for this. 
What if you wanted what I often do, leave a long train running for 8 hours? 
What if you wanted to run multiple units and have the speed sychronized? And use just one control? 
What if you wanted to have sound in every loco, but that left no room for batteries? 
What if you had 40 locos and did not want to buy 40 chargers, but want to run them all the time? 

There are cases where track power, can make sense for people. It makes more sense for me for the number of locos I run at the same time, and for the lengths of trains (load) and the running time. 

Aluminum is certainly cheaper than stainless, and I do have rail clamps on every joint. Yes, I paid a LOT more for my track, but it was my choice and a worthwhile trade for my free time. I also just personally hate charging batteries, and the irritation of things not being available when I want. 

I also want more sound functions, but that is really not a battery vs track power issue, technologically. 

So it depends on what you want. You have your situation worked out Dave, you have nasty weather, and enough chargers for the locos you run and everything works the way you want it, and with the features you want. 

For me, if I lived where you do, and ran trains the way you do, DCC and track power would most likely be a bad choice. 

But the way I like to run, and the trains I run dictate track power. Even Dennis Serrine, who spent one million dollars on his layout and locos had to switch from battery to track power during the Phoenix NGRC. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I have one fast charger. 
One. 

Several "normal rate" chargers. 

I guarantee you, I can run some of these non-stop for over 8 hours. 

Ask Steve Stockham or Barry. 

YOU know why on the smoke. 

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7078.0.html 

Besides, with the dcc mafia starting the dcc threads, hey, why not? 

I never said you shouldn't do what you want. 

Just like Dwight. 

I do, however, find some statements somewhat amazing. 

But, now I need to go fix the Audio-Visual inputs from my rectifiers. 

In case you missed it: 

http://www.largescalecentral.com/LSCForums/viewtopic.php?id=9967 

See what happens when you mail me that case of single-malt scotch? 

I gotta open another bottle.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

We (all the operators here this evening) were wondering just how the big old raccoon running down the mainline would have disrupted the cross-level if we'd just been floated in loose ballast............ 

Just wondering. 


Dang. 
Another bottle gone.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ha! that was pretty darn funny.... I'm going to radio shack to get AV inputs for my rectifiers. I'm sure they are a stocking item. 

The Bachmann smoke unit will not work on DCC? Get Lewis to show Reilly how to build one, his smoke units work just fine on DCC. 

DCC mafia? That's why Lewis banned me, you know! You need to go over there, Lewis will embrace you like a long lost friend, the battery mafia will be welcomed with open arms! 

Regards, Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 11/07/2008 11:20 PM
Got live steam. 
Two of them, both Asters. 

VERY difficult to run wayfreight ops on 4% grades with them. 

Downhills can get interesting with a long train. 

Unless I "slam it into reverse just like the prototypes".


OOOooo OOOooo OOOooo, now yer talkin'!









YEEEEEHHHHHHAAAAaaaaa... full throttle and haul back on that reverser lever!


(I'm a baaaaaaaad Engineer! -







- )


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

G'day Greg.

1. Well, what if you wanted to run long trains for hours and hours... not all locomotives can hold enough battery for this. 

No problem. You are not running light engine so use the first car after the loco to carry auxilliary batteries.
They simply plug in, disconnecting the on board batteries and saving them for use running around light engine.

2. What if you wanted what I often do, leave a long train running for 8 hours? 

No problem. See # 1 above.

3. What if you wanted to run multiple units and have the speed sychronized? And use just one control? 

No problem. RCS can do that with suitably matched locos. As many as you like.

4. What if you wanted to have sound in every loco, but that left no room for batteries? 

The Phoenix P5 is tiny. It can run off the traction batteries just nicely.
You might have me there depending on the size of the loco.
However, if the loco can fit in even physically small batteries simply refer to # 1 above.

5. What if you had 40 locos and did not want to buy 40 chargers, but want to run them all the time? 

Are you seriously asking me to believe you could actually operate 40 locos simultaneously? All day. 24/7
I will concede that might be a problem.
However a solution is again at hand. See #1 above to avoid using the loco batteries in any train.

6. Even Dennis Serrine, who spent one million dollars on his layout and locos had to switch from battery to track power during the Phoenix NGRC. 

Would this be the same gentleman who sent 100 Li-Ion battery packs back to the importer because they failed.
Perhaps he should have stuck to the tried and true NiCd batteries Dave, I and a multitude of our happy customers have been using almost exclusively for the last what, 25 years.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I can not drink enough beer to keep up with these comments!!!! 

I think to be totally independent, trains should be solar/battery and no utility power would be needed. 

Perhaps the trailing car should be a live steam donkey driving a generator. 

Maybe a miniature flathead gas engine to drive a generator.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

so how do you fit a battery and radio control in a little rail car ?


how do you work remote switchs that you cannot reach ?


if it has a battery then why do you need rail at all just make a dirt path for the train ? 


so what will it cost to make a dump car work remotely with battery and radio control ? 


how long will the batterys last if I want to light a string of 13 aristo pass cars and how many batterys do I need ?


how do I trigger the sound effects in my yard and cattle car ?


does that one battery car have to alway be on the loco ?

if I cannot take power from the track how am I to power my lift bridge across the yard ?


sorry cannot run that train right now it has to charge 

sorry cannot run the smoke it takes to much power from the battery 

sorry cannot make that loco run battery will not hold a charge 




I tryed the battery thing with both locolink and TE and did not like it .... even caused me to give up outdoor trains for a few years ..... then I found DCC and everything changed now the indoor trains are gone and I am just having a great time ....

in our club there is 5 of us that run dcc and none have problems .......for me DCC is it and I will never go backwords to battery no matter how much slander is said about dcc.......


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## flats (Jun 30, 2008)

I run both, and will have to say I have less trouble with track power than battery. I am not going to put anyone down for running battery for this is our hobby and we can operate anyway we like, if 
it is battery, track, dcc, drc are what ever we enjoy than do it! Just run trains. 

Owner of K&K the road to nowhere


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

One point that nobody has mentioned is that in our club, the meets with the lowest attendence are the battery only layouts; because most of our members don't have any battery powered equipment. Our meets with track power draw anywhere from 10 to 20 locomotives; battery power only meets draw more like 3 to 5. 

But I guess it depends on your goals. Our objective tends to be "If you bring it, it will run on my layout." If you're more of the "I'm right, you're wrong, get used to it" school, well...


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the thing is Dave did not post this on public or track power forum, thus its between those who regularly visit batt forum.
I may have , but try NOT to go to track power forum and bring this up unless some one is saying something to miss lead folks on the issue.
The biggest thing is track power advicts forget all the time that many of us came from track power.
And thats all I have to say about that.

Many ,NOT all open houses I have gone to, track power folks can't handle all the visiting trains , unless they are on board RC. Very few are DCC 
And MTH folks , again, only visitng batt/RC can play at the same time.

Even me now being (as some call it) halfway live steam run RC batt to control it. The idea of going around a level circle time after time , I'd get board.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, that joke fell flatter then a pancake. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

OH, sorry Dwight,, LOL ,,,LOL 
You know better than to joke with Dave. 

Scott has good points on accessories for the RR. most battery folks don't have "toy" train operating things.
A good rule of thumb is never have a swtich that you can't get to , becuase you will have to clean or clear the rail at some point in time.

as for dead battery = dead spot in track, dirty loco wheels, not enough power to run all the lights in the cars.

And yes, they do run on the dirt after a derailment.

Also, we , I don't want any one to leave the hobby. battery or track is great as long as it stays fun.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

To each his own, or in my case, I use all 3 types.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

And so goes the dispute/war AGAIN


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Trains West on 11/08/2008 6:45 AM

so how do you fit a battery and radio control in a little rail car ?

_Easy. Done lgb Porters, kit-bashed railtrucks, Delton Doozies (with sound), old Bochman porters, Bochman railtrucks._


how do you work remote switchs that you cannot reach ?

_AIR. Whatreya, new?_


if it has a battery then why do you need rail at all just make a dirt path for the train ? 

_You don't. Why do real trains need the rail if they have self-contained on-board power sources?_


so what will it cost to make a dump car work remotely with battery and radio control ? 

_Don't know. Never been asked to do one. That said, like in smaller scales, the dump mechanism is trackside._

how long will the batterys last if I want to light a string of 13 aristo pass cars and how many batterys do I need ?

_First, remove excess lights. You don't need to light up the countryside._
_Then, determine the voltage you REALLY want._
_Put a 4.5AH NiMH pack in the lead car with a switch._
_Done it._


how do I trigger the sound effects in my yard and cattle car ?

_Ya know, most of those cattle car thingies have motion sensors that set them off. You trying to tell me that while running trains, keeping track of things, you want to manually trigger a "moo"?_
_What about your yard?_


does that one battery car have to alway be on the loco ?

_What battery car? I don't use battery cars._

if I cannot take power from the track how am I to power my lift bridge across the yard ?

_Air? As in, no corrosion?_
_Oh, wait! MANUALLY!_ _I recall old Lionel stuff that took power from the tracks....and everything slowed down when you operated an accessory._
_Come to think of it, that would be a good contol system. Full power to your trains, slow them by continuously operating numerous trackside accessories!_



sorry cannot run that train right now it has to charge 

_Then you don't know what you're doing._

sorry cannot run the smoke it takes to much power from the battery 

_Not so, but, outdoors in the wind and rain how much smoke you gonna see?_
_How about this:_

_"Gee, sorry, can't run my smoke, gotta go add more oil"_
_"Gee, sorry, I ran out of oil, can't run my smoke"_
_"Gee, I ran out of oil, forgot to turn the smoke unit off, and burned it up"_

sorry cannot make that loco run battery will not hold a charge 

_Then you need to take up knitting or some other project/hobby that does not require thought processes to be used to show how to charge, cycle or change batteries._





I tryed the battery thing with both locolink and TE and did not like it .... even caused me to give up outdoor trains for a few years ..... then I found DCC and everything changed now the indoor trains are gone and I am just having a great time ....

_Did I mention any of those?_

in our club there is 5 of us that run dcc and none have problems .......for me DCC is it and I will never go backwords to battery no matter how much slander is said about dcc.......


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Trains West on 11/08/2008 6:45 AM
so how do you fit a battery and radio control in a little rail car ?


how do you work remote switchs that you cannot reach ?


if it has a battery then why do you need rail at all just make a dirt path for the train ? 


so what will it cost to make a dump car work remotely with battery and radio control ? 


how long will the batterys last if I want to light a string of 13 aristo pass cars and how many batterys do I need ?


how do I trigger the sound effects in my yard and cattle car ?


does that one battery car have to alway be on the loco ?

if I cannot take power from the track how am I to power my lift bridge across the yard ?


sorry cannot run that train right now it has to charge 

sorry cannot run the smoke it takes to much power from the battery 

sorry cannot make that loco run battery will not hold a charge 




I tryed the battery thing with both locolink and TE and did not like it .... even caused me to give up outdoor trains for a few years ..... then I found DCC and everything changed now the indoor trains are gone and I am just having a great time ....

in our club there is 5 of us that run dcc and none have problems .......for me DCC is it and I will never go backwords to battery no matter how much slander is said about dcc....... 




To add to the list:

How do I get the trains to automatically "leap frog?"

How does air switching easily accomplish the automatic turnout operation necessarily associated with these operations?

How does air switching amean itself to sophisticated matrixing and automatic operations for just pennies for diodes?

How do I get the trains to slow and stop at the tower/tipple/fuel tank/station to pick up water/coal/fuel/people while running unattended?

How can I make them run point-to point with intermittent stops without special wiring?

How do I keep the two trains from smacking into each other at the crossing when guests have taken my attention?

How do I keep the NiCads from going flat and not taking a charge after sitting all fall and winter? Why should I be bothered with cycling batteries if I'm not using the railroad and my attention is on other things?

To each his own.


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

*Well.......... * Kind of to old and to much stuff now to change from track power to Batt. So as long as we are having fun that all the counts.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 11/08/2008 11:08 AM

To add to the list:

How do I get the trains to automatically "leap frog?"

_Try "TrainSim". Don't know about you, but around here we RUN trains._

How does air switching easily accomplish the automatic turnout operation necessarily associated with these operations?

_Try "TrainSim". Around here we run trains, operate turnouts as needed._

How does air switching amean itself to sophisticated matrixing and automatic operations for just pennies for diodes?

_Who cares? That requires A) electrical power, B) control systems, and C) try "TRainSim". Around here we RUN trains._ 

How do I get the trains to slow and stop at the tower/tipple/fuel tank/station to pick up water/coal/fuel/people while running unattended?

_Try "TrainSim". Around here we RUN trains._

How can I make them run point-to point with intermittent stops without special wiring?

_Easy! Hold the R/C transmitter in your hand and DO it! Around here, we RUN trains!_ _NO special wiring needed._


How do I keep the two trains from smacking into each other at the crossing when guests have taken my attention?

_Same way real railroads do. Called "multi-tasking"._

How do I keep the NiCads from going flat and not taking a charge after sitting all fall and winter? Why should I be bothered with cycling batteries if I'm not using the railroad and my attention is on other things?

_A) I don't have that problem. B) We don't let them sit all winter (but, we HAVE purchased old engines with NiCads that have sitten dormant for 5-7 years, charged them, run them for another 5 years._

To each his own.

_And, we do it simply, and prototypically._


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess ol Dave can handle his own. 
Back to the train shop


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

That case of single-malt scotch Greg sent me has certainly come in handy....


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

How do I get the trains to slow and stop at the tower/tipple/fuel tank/station to pick up water/coal/fuel/people while running unattended? 
How can I make them run point-to point with intermittent stops without special wiring?



With "Critter Controls" or "RailBoss R/C" of course!


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

I saw a "challenge" show on TV once. The question was, "Which is more fuel efficient, a Chevrolet Chevette (which tells you how long ago this was) or a school bus?" They went on to show that the school bus gets approximately 6 miles per gallon, and the Chevette gets about 28, as you'd expect. Once everyone finished voting for the Chevette, the rest of the challenge was explained. 

A group of 50 people was to be moved from the starting point to a school 5 miles away. 25 for the bus, and 25 for the Chevette. Each vehicle had exactly one gallon of gas in the tank. They even gave the Chevette a head start ..... and while the Chevette was frantically shuttling groups of 3, the bus loaded up its 25 people and took them all in one trip. On the way back for the fourth load, the Chevette ran out of gas. 

The point is, what works for you is based on your situaton, and what you're trying to accomplish. There are a lot of things Battery R/C is good at . . . and even more things it can be made to do with a little (or a lot of) ingenuity. There are some things that DCC is good at, and a few more it can be made to do with a little ingenuity. There are areas, for both, that while you COULD make it do those things, it'd really be easier to use something else if that sort of operation was your priority. 

TOC and Tony have spent a great deal of time, energy, and money on making Battery R/C as functional and versatile as it can be ... and have successfully adapted it to a number of extreme situations. There are a number of model railroad operations that are greatly simplified by using this system, and the environmental extremes in which it's been demonstrated to work well are ... well, astounding. The system caters to the operators who remain involved with their trains, but can also be automated to some degree, and there are generally (as already mentioned) ingenious ways to solve the obstacles that any particular situation might present. 

DCC and other track powered applications have a lot of appeal for some folks, and has also been demonstrated as an effective way to control trains in many circumstances. Since it's a technology born of computers, there are a lot of automation options and long, continuous operations, as with a museum display, that can really be a forte for this type of technology. As wtih any complex system, there are things that can go wrong with DCC that can't with other methods, and it requires a certain aptitude for the technical side of programming and handling of electronics, and it has more mountains to climb with respect to the environment than some other forms of control.... but there are folks who apply the same ingenuity to conquering those obstacles. 

The point is, there are benefits and challenges on both systems. The problems arise when someone throws down the gauntlet and says that one is inferior, involved going "backwards" or is the bailiwick of simpletons or neophytes ... and then the gloves come off, as we try to use our ingenious solutions as ways to beat the other side down. 

The thing to do is to try both systems out. Not just going and running one under ideal circumstances ... but installing gear in a locomotive, installing track and requisite wiring infastructure, running in different environmental conditions, and for different lengths of time ... and asking yourself .... "How does what I want in a railroad play to the strengths (or not) of one or the other system .... and then decide. I'm going to bet that TOC, Marty, Richard Smith, and the OVGRS folks have just as much fun running trains as Gregg Elmassian, George Schreyer, Tom Lapointe, and Rayman do ... and that for their priorities, all of them are quite satisifed with what they've got. Incidentally if someone is just breaking into the whole thing, talking to these folks would be a good idea..... and a way to make an educated decision. 

Matthew (OV) 

PS. I should probably point out that efforts to rid the face of the planet of one form of power and control by the other, particularly if that effort involved deliberate machinations to cause newly manufactured trains to be incompatible with one or the other system, or for "standards" of power and control to make it appear that the general populace "wanted" one over the other, or that one was "progress" or "advancement" or "furtherance" over the other .... then I'd be tempted to take up the torch and pitchfork with the rest of them. 

Nuff said.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

To quote an official/unofficial source, "You are confused, and do not understand". 
Ever notice how he tries that dang near every time in an attempt to discredit anyone but himself? 

But, he's a really nice guy.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 11/08/2008 9:33 AM
Well, that joke fell flatter then a pancake. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif" src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" />


If you are refering to your comment about Live Steam... well... The truth is sometimes funny, but it weren't no joke!









SEMPER VAPORO! Oh wait... what forum is this in... can I shout that?


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 11/08/2008 1:59 PM
Posted By Dwight Ennis on 11/08/2008 9:33 AM
Well, that joke fell flatter then a pancake.







" src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" />


If you are refering to your comment about Live Steam... well... The truth is sometimes funny, but it weren't no joke!









SEMPER VAPORO! Oh wait... what forum is this in... can I shout that?



Let's take this "class warfare" to another level, shall we?

If you are running live steam, how would you run for 8 hours unattended?
How would you do automatic station stops (and starts)?
How would you do automated "leapfrogging"?
How would you turn on you class lights remotely, while controlling blower, dynamo, cylinder cocks, throttle, reverse, fuel feed, water level, whistle, BELL, even?
Better add in the automatic uncoupling.

Next thing, someone is going to tell us they automated a "Time Saver" module, and it requires no human intervention.

Ain't this fun?


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

The original question was "Why would I want anything but on-boord battery r/c?"

Well maybe you personnally wouldn't, but you've been provided with a number of reasons why.

The thing is, anytime someone points out a reason why, or shortcoming of battery power (whether it be lights/ smoke, run time, sound, automated operations, etc., etc., etc.), the stock answer is "why would I want to do that if its not prototypical (or some other excuse)?"

Well, some people "do want to do that" and obviously battery operation is not well suited to some tasks. Battery power is not the be all/end all. Learn to deal with it.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

And, do you have any clue, even a small one, as to WHY this thread was started?


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 11/08/2008 3:01 PM
And, do you have any clue, even a small one, as to WHY this thread was started?

Sure, trolling for business. Pretty obvious to me. At least that's the way it comes off.


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## Crosshead (Feb 20, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 11/08/2008 2:37 PM

Well, some people "do want to do that" and obviously battery operation is not well suited to some tasks. Battery power is not the be all/end all. Learn to deal with it.






Well, then perhaps the same ttthing is tttrue about other tttypes of control systems for model tttrains, and someone should be tttold so decidely before he screws the whole ttthing up furthering his own interests. 

As to obvious, there are a lot of things that are obvious, and a lot of people who are oblivious. Sometimes one because of the other. 

Richard C.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Del, 
Did you know you are a troll???


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 11/08/2008 2:11 PM
Posted By Semper Vaporo on 11/08/2008 1:59 PM
Posted By Dwight Ennis on 11/08/2008 9:33 AM
Well, that joke fell flatter then a pancake.







" src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" />


If you are refering to your comment about Live Steam... well... The truth is sometimes funny, but it weren't no joke!









SEMPER VAPORO! Oh wait... what forum is this in... can I shout that?



Let's take this "class warfare" to another level, shall we?

If you are running live steam, how would you run for 8 hours unattended?
How would you do automatic station stops (and starts)?
How would you do automated "leapfrogging"?
How would you turn on you class lights remotely, while controlling blower, dynamo, cylinder cocks, throttle, reverse, fuel feed, water level, whistle, BELL, even?
Better add in the automatic uncoupling.

Next thing, someone is going to tell us they automated a "Time Saver" module, and it requires no human intervention.

Ain't this fun?



Of course its fun... especially if it is Live Steam!, but to answer your questions... WHY would anyone want to run a train set "unattended"? I mean, I do know some folk that say that when they come home from work, they throw a train on their track, set it to run and go in the house to read the paper, eat supper, watch TV and just before they go to bed they go outside, shut off the train and put it away. I could sneak over then some evening and shut the train off right after they go inside and turn it back on just before they come back out and they'd never know the difference... but if I did it every evening they would brag heavily at how little wear their trains get! My point is that running unattended is without merit... I run my train to get my hands on a train (the real RRs won't let me play with their toys [ and rightly so, too!] so I got my own and I want to attend to the playing with it for how ever many hours I can put with it). 

Automatic stations stops are accomplished by the Engineer closing the throttle and centering the reverser lever at the appropriate time... take LOTS of practice to get the train stopped at the exact correct point, but it can be done and is quite enjoyable when it is done well!

"LEAPFROGGING"... Yowsers! I have only seen that done in cartoons! The engineer trailing, pulls a lever and his train extends up on some multiple scissors setup and goes over the train in front, to take the lead. I suppose it could be automated, but I have never figured out the physics of getting the wheels past each other (that is always conveniently ignored in the cartoons).

Control of throttle, reverser and blower are all from my "Car" type R/C transmitter/receiver pair. Additional function can be controlled by adding channels to the set or adding another set for what ever I want to spend the money to control.

Uncoupling is accomplished by "pulling the pin" on the coupler by the Yard Man or Utiliity Man. ("Automatic uncoupling" is also known as a "run-away" or "Loose car" and is frowned upon!)

Ya see... it all depends on what YOU want, not what anybody else thinks you oughta want. For me, if all I wanted to do is see a train run in circles, I can close my eyes and see that anytime I want. For ME, I run trains so "I CAN" run trains and Live Steam is the ONLY way to do so... that is to say: "for ME". Battery and track power have just too many things about them that are too dissagreeable to ME to see any merit in either. I am sure Live Steam is just too much hard work for some and just plain silly for others. What those folk think of me carries as much weight as what I think of them! I am sure they are fine folk and have some measure of intellegence, but from my viewpoint they are just plain misguided.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Really? 
You think so? 
I really, really thought you were a little more cognizant than that. 

I didn't push any product. 

Rather, the concept. 

Now, had I been pushing a specific product, yeah. 

CONCEPT, Todd, and what works. 

Of course, we do have an official/unofficial spokesperson trying to prove his design works. 

You really don't know what the purpose is for this threrad, do you? 

I am surprised.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Let's take this "class warfare" to another level, shall we? 

If you are running live steam, how would you run for 8 hours unattended? 
How would you do automatic station stops (and starts)? 
How would you do automated "leapfrogging"? 
How would you turn on you class lights remotely, while controlling blower, dynamo, cylinder cocks, throttle, reverse, fuel feed, water level, whistle, BELL, even? 
Better add in the automatic uncoupling.
Try Train Sim... around here, we RUN (steam) trains.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 11/08/2008 3:33 PM
Really? 
You think so? 
I really, really thought you were a little more cognizant than that. 

I didn't push any product. 

Rather, the concept. 

Now, had I been pushing a specific product, yeah. 

CONCEPT, Todd, and what works. 

Of course, we do have an official/unofficial spokesperson trying to prove his design works. 

You really don't know what the purpose is for this threrad, do you? 

I am surprised.


You really don't know how this thread comes off do you? I am suprised.
Actually, that's the way many of these threads come across. Don't think that people don't see through it.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 11/08/2008 4:08 PM


You really don't know how this thread comes off do you? I am suprised.
Actually, that's the way many of these threads come across. Don't think that people don't see through it.

Had I mentioned a brand, or tried to sell someone something, then you'd be right.
Since I didn't push what I use, rather the concept of using NO track power, geeez.

Little bit noid?
At least a pair a them?


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 11/08/2008 5:14 PM
Posted By toddalin on 11/08/2008 4:08 PM


You really don't know how this thread comes off do you? I am suprised.
Actually, that's the way many of these threads come across. Don't think that people don't see through it.

Had I mentioned a brand, or tried to sell someone something, then you'd be right.
Since I didn't push what I use, rather the concept of using NO track power, geeez.

Little bit noid?
At least a pair a them?






I said, _trolling for business_. No need to mention a brand as your business is R/C installs, right? Anyway, you don't need to mention a brand to push your agenda. It is pretty well known in these circles.

'nuff said.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Gentlemen and others.

Now what we have ourselves is a "bickerment".
What is a "bickerment"? You might well ask.

I am a great fan of Judge Judy. You know, that font of what should be self evident Jewish wisdom, who dishes up large dollops of common sense to the schmucks who are stupid enough to display their ignorance and stupidiity for the whole World to see on her show.
It never ceases to amaze me how the English language evolves. The schmucks on the show often (inadvertently because of their ignorance) add to our lexicon of new words.
I guess those that can't express themselves properly resort to creativity to explain themselves.
Hence "bickerment" came from a dingbat who didn't/couldn't choose between bickering & argument when describing a situation. As it happens she probably got it right anyway.

The question was: "Why would I want anything but on-board battery r/c?" 
Nowhere did Dave mention Track power either DC or DCC.

Dontcha all know what a rehtorical question is?

If you don't you should read up on them here.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RhetoricalQuestion

This is a battery forum. 
It is not track power.
It is not DCC.
So please take your prejudices and have your "bickerments" at either of those fora and leave us battery only dudes, the true fonts of wisdom, to cogitate in our own contentment.
From time to time expect a rhetorical question to suck y'all in.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Funny, some people just have to be contrary I guess! I honestly can't see how I _ever_ enjoyed the hobby before I converted to Battery R/C but that's just me! Matthew probably said it best in that the DCC crowd has certain expectations which DCC does very well and the Battery R/C crowd have certain expectations that Battery R/C meets much better than DCC. It's a choice and there is _nothing_ wrong with promoting your particular system _especially on the forum devoted to this particular type of system!_ Todd makes the accusation that TOC is "just drumming up business." I would have to disagree with this. TOC isn't _just_ drumming up business oh no! It's quite a bit more involved than that! Dave and Tony truly believe in battery r/c control and they are merely keeping the rest of us informed. If some of us "see the light" and decide to convert to battery r/c then it's good for us, the hobby in general as well as Dave and/or Tony (assuming that one purchases the units that Tony is manufacturing or uses Dave's services) but there are a number of excellent systems and this thread wasn't primarily about "drumming up business"! Look at the title of the thread again. It's a good question! I happen to appreciate and agree with the answer.


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## Duncan (Jan 2, 2008)

Dang, I'll be goin' to ****-o fer sure now...


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 11/08/2008 3:30 PM
Hey Del, 
Did you know you are a troll???







Ah yes ... when I started planning my retirement, trolling was on my short list. And low and behold, here I am a few years later, just trolling away. There are so many fish in the sea, where do you start?


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Tony,








I did not see the Judge Judy Show you refer to but I do know that the addition of the word "ment" to many other words is common amongst the God fearing folks native to parts of South Western England, particularly Devon.

As for Trolls (notice the capital T) the last I knew of them is that when visiting Norway they were best avoided.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Shucks, fellas, This is a hobby!! No need to get your pants up your crack!!! (those that did) Just have fun and do what you want. Let the ranters rant, best to let them without answering. I use battery /RC and track power/rc, They both serve me well and I have fun. I install my batt/rc units with a switch to allow them to be used on track power if desired. I would never suggest that anyone else do what I do. If they ask me a question about what I do I answer with why it works for me, if it suits them to do it my that is totally their decision. if they find DCC would be better for them, that is just fine too. I would even try to help them with the DCC if for no other reason than maybe I could learn form the experience. I think it is amazing that we have so many choices. It saddens me at times to see some folks feel they have to flame everyone just to get their point across. A little tolerence om everyones part seems to be appropriate. I read too much of this stuff at times, although most of the time I stop reading when the ranting starts. I just couldn't help reading this one, but wish I had not. Just my 4 cents worth!!!!!


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## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi all,

I hardly ever read threads like this one and almost never post a response but something about this one 
just tickled the **** outta me.

It's been my observation through the years that TOC is one of those fellows who, when he finds a stray 
cat, he just naturally has to toss it into the kennel to see what will happen. Now that is not necessarily
a bad thing, it brings out the differences in noise level and gives all participants some exercise, not to mention 
the fact that the cat usually gets worked over pretty good.

Keep chuckin 'em TOC
Later
Rick Marty


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Mrrrrrrrrrrrrrrroooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww??????????????? 
HHHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Who, me? he says! 

ha ha ha! 

Regards, Greg


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## Dave Ottney (Jan 2, 2008)

I think using battery power needs a certain mindset like using DCC. Just like going from traditional DC to DCC where there's a learning curve, battery ops demands you change your thinking a bit. 
I needed the flexibility of battery RC to be able run my stuff on two friends' layouts with different command control systems (one is a Lionel and one was a traditional DCC- he's now converted to battery). With battery RC I can run anywhere. 
All three systems have their place, but aside from live steam, I find battery operated RC to be most flexible. I think its a bit more costly than traditional DC with block wiring but seems to be a bit cheaper than DCC when comparing the initial outlay of funds. 
Dave


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Gee Whizz Dave. 

You had better duck and get those phaser shields up ready for the incoming barbs of indignation from the dedicated few, for daring to say that.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

After what Bill said all I can think of is,,,WEDGY,,,WEDGY!!!!!!!! 
I think I spelled it right.??


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Amen Bill. Later RJD


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## 3lphill (Feb 22, 2008)

Good Day,
If you are looking for a troll try http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/2236. Now I am fairly new to all of this, but if our crumengenly person is actually trying to promote business he has not made it easy, I have not seen an "offer to provide" or a link to a retail sight yet. And by the way once I get rid of the ivy, moss, branches, and other junk I plan on going battery. Seams the best choice in the rain with the raccoons, squirrels, slugs, 13 week old Labrador retriever / excavator, 2 adult Labs and a very energetic 2 year old son. Fewer things to chew or tear up the better.
Phillip


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Do I hear,,,an,,,AMEN to brother Phillip........ preach it brother.... 
Just send all offerings to me... 

Just remember, we've all been there, done that, we've all layed in the dirt with a screw driver tring to find the dead joiner. Looking for the wire that rusted off.
The cars that had flicking lights going down the track after sun set.
And how many dollars have we spent on larger power packs only to find they still wasn't big enough.. Bigger isn't,,,better.

Amen and Amen.

Tony is not really,,, the devil, hes ,,an ,,,angel.......

Boy am I in deep ______


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Now that most of the mud slinging is over, I'll answer the question ... 


Even though I have been selling battery powered products for a couple of years now, I hadn't completely converted my own railroad to battery power until this year. Even though I have always professed that track cleaning isn't that big of a deal, it sure is nice when it is gone!

Battery R/C ? Well, there are other options than R/C with battery power. You can save a few bucks by giving up the transmitter and receiver and just going for semi-automated hands-on control. It works very well. And for all of you that have 30 locos and can't afford to convert them all? First of all, you just start with one loco. You'll like it. Then a second ... Pretty soon you will find that the track powered fleet is just sitting idle because you don't want to mess with cleaning track. It's easier to just run the battery powered stuff. 

Today I converted my first brand new loco that never even turned a wheel under track power. Straight to battery, this one using my own R/C system.


I still think the new guy should probably start out with track power, just so things aren't so overwhelming, and if for no other reason just to appreciate all of the problems it presents. But in time (maybe a very short time) that loco will be such a pain to run on track power, it will be time to save it and convert it to battery power. So, no matter who's control system you use, when that time comes for you, give it a try!


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2008)

I bought and I converted my first loco to Batt/RC(S) before I ever had purchased one slice of track...but mind you I spent the better part of 6 mo doing my home work! 

cale


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

Being new here...are the threads always like this when it comes to battery and track or is it just because the election is over and people can't argue about that? 

I mean this in the nicest possible way


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steeeeve on 11/11/2008 9:19 PM
Being new here...are the threads always like this when it comes to battery and track or is it just because the election is over and people can't argue about that? 

I mean this in the nicest possible way " src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/smile.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" />


The gentle (?) banter amongst the track and battery power proponents occurs only because they are all jealous of those of us that have seen the light and run Live Steam.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Steeeeve on 11/11/2008 9:19 PM
Being new here...are the threads always like this when it comes to battery and track or is it just because the election is over and people can't argue about that? 

I mean this in the nicest possible way " align="absmiddle" border="0" />

Dark-Side-Cookies-335x240.jpg 
sorry fellows link did not work!!! The Regal Neat picture though anyway


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 11/11/2008 9:38 PM
Posted By Steeeeve on 11/11/2008 9:19 PM
Being new here...are the threads always like this when it comes to battery and track or is it just because the election is over and people can't argue about that? 

I mean this in the nicest possible way







" align="absmiddle" border="0" />

Dark-Side-Cookies-335x240.jpg 
sorry fellows link did not work!!! The Regal Neat picture though anyway 




You have it pointing at YOUR computer diskdrive, not some place on the web where others can access it.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

The track power folks keep trying to hold onto their fantasies that nobody wants anything but. 

You will see this type of reaction from time to time. 

Please note, just for reference, this thread exists wholly in the confines of the battery r/c forum. 

When they cannot win the argument (lost it before they even started, actually) they try to divert attention from their abject failure by trying to get others to think there is skull-duggery occuring. 

It will get even better. 
Just wait!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Mother nature is wonderful. 
The longer a layout is in the garden, the more likely the owner/builder is to convert to battery R/C.


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## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

Started with track power years ago. Then bought a couple of "Cottage industry" speed/direction controllers, the kind that used Model airplane Tx's. Even had a RCS type that ran that way. Then found Locolinc, that system uses the same Rx for picking up power from either track or battery, whichever is the strongest source at that point on the track. Got real sick of trying to keep the track clean and powered, so I dumped the track power and ran just battery. Now having found Airwire, it is just straight to battery. Dirty track, loose conections on track? Hah! A thing of the past








Rod


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## fildowns (May 17, 2008)

I hear you there Rod! Over in blightly where the weather is rubbish most of the year it's a much more obvious choice for those that can't be working on their pw every other day to maintain smooth running.

I struggled for about three years with DCC in the garden and then gave up on it. Batt R/C works the best for me.

Indoors, on a succession of N and H0 projects - I have found DCC is the easily the BEST choice if you want to run more than one engine! So at certain times of the year when I can't be outside I am still an active DCCer too.

Thank goodness we have the choice I say!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By fildowns on 11/12/2008 6:50 AM
I hear you there Rod! Over in blightly where the weather is rubbish most of the year it's a much more obvious choice for those that can't be working on their pw every other day to maintain smooth running.

I struggled for about three years with DCC in the garden and then gave up on it. Batt R/C works the best for me.

Indoors, on a succession of N and H0 projects - I have found DCC is the easily the BEST choice if you want to run more than one engine! So at certain times of the year when I can't be outside I am still an active DCCer too.

Thank goodness we have the choice I say!

_Preach on!_
_I use dcc indoors when necessary._
_Good choice when you have clean track, good light, temperature and humidity control._

_Your experience with dcc in the great out-of-doors mirrors that of locals here._

_Temperate climes, hey, go for it._
_But in places that have distinct seasons, probably naught._


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

Can battery provide automation? Growing up with computers this is my main interest. For automation you really need the ability for a two way communication. Are there any battery products that can accomplish this? I know for track power only transponding gives you this.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Steeeeve on 11/12/2008 11:33 AM
Can battery provide automation? Growing up with computers this is my main interest. For automation you really need the ability for a two way communication. Are there any battery products that can accomplish this? I know for track power only transponding gives you this.

Yes it can. My G-Scale Graphics "Critter Controls" and "RailBoss R/C" products can both do station stops and back 'n forth trolley operation using track magnets. The Critter Controls are semi-automatic in that you use a rotary switch/button on the loco to start, stop, and set the speed. The RailBoss is radio control. I also have a more whimsical product called "Rail-Bot" which can run totally unattended, avoiding collisions with other trains on the same track. Give me a call or e-mail for more info.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steeeeve on 11/12/2008 11:33 AM
Can battery provide automation? Growing up with computers this is my main interest. For automation you really need the ability for a two way communication. Are there any battery products that can accomplish this? I know for track power only transponding gives you this.


Yes Steve.
All of the EVOLUTION R/C battery powered on board controllers I make combine both automatic control and optional switchable R/C in the one package.
They were the first on the market to provide station and terminus stops, be programmable for acceleration/braking rates, dwell times and top speed. Plus they provide constant brightness lighting and automatic triggers for sound systems.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

One of the local guys has a Boomerang in his little dismal. 
He has the switch in the cab, goes from full control radio to automatic. 
I've never used it, but maybe someday......


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## SteveF (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 11/12/2008 11:43 AM
Posted By Steeeeve on 11/12/2008 11:33 AM
Can battery provide automation? Growing up with computers this is my main interest. For automation you really need the ability for a two way communication. Are there any battery products that can accomplish this? I know for track power only transponding gives you this.

Yes it can. My G-Scale Graphics "Critter Controls" and "RailBoss R/C" products can both do station stops and back 'n forth trolley operation using track magnets. The Critter Controls are semi-automatic in that you use a rotary switch/button on the loco to start, stop, and set the speed. The RailBoss is radio control. I also have a more whimsical product called "Rail-Bot" which can run totally unattended, avoiding collisions with other trains on the same track. Give me a call or e-mail for more info.

Now, Del, there you go trolling, after you said that you wouldn't. Capitalism at work.














I'm shocked, I tell you, Shocked!


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## SteveF (Jan 2, 2008)

I have only a few of my locomotives rigged for battery/radio control. The rest are on the stored/serviceable line, waiting parts. 

I made a promise to the CFO that I wouldn't buy any more locomotives until I had the roster fully rigged for battery control.

I fully intend to keep that promise except for the ones I can sneak past her. "Honey, that one has been here for years. I just haven't run it for a while."












I just need a few more battery cars to sort of keep the promise.... "Honey, that is what I intended all along..."




She is smarter than that, but is willing to go along with the fiction because I overlook her foibles, too.


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## 3lphill (Feb 22, 2008)

I have always liked foibles esp. diped in hot fudge
Phillip


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Now, Del, there you go trolling, after you said that you wouldn't. Capitalism at work.














I'm shocked, I tell you, Shocked!









Actually, I don't remember saying I wouldn't.







Seriously though. This place is about sharing information. Being an MLS member, as well as a vendor of goods, I have to walk a fine lilne. I try not to promote my products unless there is a direct question that pertains to them. In that case, I think it is appropriate to make sure the question gets answered and the poster is informed of the options available to them. Sometimes there are other vendors, such as RCS in this case, that have products that also apply. I usually don't bother mentioning them because I know Tony will chime in anyway, and give them a proper description of his offerings.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The way you and Tony walk that fine line is commendable... thanks!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Both Del and I respect the (unwritten) convention that one manufacturer does not comment on another competing manufacturers products. 
Unless of course there is common theme, such as the installation kits I make that can be used with any brand of battery R/C.


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm not sure the products provide for the automation I'm looking for. I literally want a programmable train. For example Train 1 is a passenger train so it will naturally stop on a siding to pick up passengers while Train 2, a cargo train, will pass right on by. This normally requires a 2-way communication to know what train is which and locations on a given track. 

Perhaps I just misunderstand some of you though


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## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

Went to run on a friends layout last night. Due to the rain and snow the track power was erratic at best causing the train to lurch and cars to disconnect. Battery locos ran just fine and lasted far longer than i did in the cold sleet. 

Terry


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Steeeeve on 11/13/2008 8:31 AM
I'm not sure the products provide for the automation I'm looking for. I literally want a programmable train. For example Train 1 is a passenger train so it will naturally stop on a siding to pick up passengers while Train 2, a cargo train, will pass right on by. This normally requires a 2-way communication to know what train is which and locations on a given track. 

Perhaps I just misunderstand some of you though " align="absmiddle" border="0" />

Well I don't think I would want to operate this way but it can be done ...With the "RailBoss R/C" installed in two locos operating on two different frequencies using two different transmitters, enable station stops on the passenger train using its xmitter, and disable station stops on the cargo train using its xmitter. Cargo passes through the station, passenger stops .... and without intervention the cargo train eventually runs into the rear of the passenger train! Of course you can intervene by changing the automation status of either train on the fly and/or adjusting speed as needed, but that's probably not the total automation you are looking for.


No matter who's system you use, it gets a little tricky running two trains on the same loop. You have to pay attention at all times even if the same transmitter is used for both. What I like to do on my layout, is run the first train under "Critter Control" (no xmitter required) at a constant speed (making station stops or not), and the other train under radio control. I can adjust the speed of the R/C train as needed to avoid conflicts. Still have to pay attention though. The shorter the loop the sooner the wreck! 

Edit: Now that I have posted this, you probably want the passenger train to stop at the passengers stops, and the freight train to stop at the appropriate freight stops. My system won't do that. In fact, I had a project with that goal in mind in the past, but it hasn't worked out so far.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 11/13/2008 9:20 AM
Posted By Steeeeve on 11/13/2008 8:31 AM
I'm not sure the products provide for the automation I'm looking for. I literally want a programmable train. For example Train 1 is a passenger train so it will naturally stop on a siding to pick up passengers while Train 2, a cargo train, will pass right on by. This normally requires a 2-way communication to know what train is which and locations on a given track. 

Perhaps I just misunderstand some of you though







" align="absmiddle" border="0" />

Well I don't think I would want to operate this way but it can be done ...With the "RailBoss R/C" installed in two locos operating on two different frequencies using two different transmitters, enable station stops on the passenger train using its xmitter, and disable station stops on the cargo train using its xmitter. Cargo passes through the station, passenger stops .... and without intervention the cargo train eventually runs into the rear of the passenger train! Of course you can intervene by changing the automation status of either train on the fly and/or adjusting speed as needed, but that's probably not the total automation you are looking for.


No matter who's system you use, it gets a little tricky running two trains on the same loop. You have to pay attention at all times even if the same transmitter is used for both. What I like to do on my layout, is run the first train under "Critter Control" (no xmitter required) at a constant speed (making station stops or not), and the other train under radio control. I can adjust the speed of the R/C train as needed to avoid conflicts. Still have to pay attention though. The shorter the loop the sooner the wreck! 

Edit: Now that I have posted this, you probably want the passenger train to stop at the passengers stops, and the freight train to stop at the appropriate freight stops. My system won't do that. In fact, I had a project with that goal in mind in the past, but it hasn't worked out so far.





Sure...

But with track power, you put a magnet under the left side of a passenger engine and a reed switch on the left side of the track that tells a 555 to to trip a relay to kill that block for x number of seconds. For a freight engine, put the magnet/reed on the other side to stop at an industry. Couldn't be easier. 

But, who in their right mind would want to do anything like that? Oh, I forgot. We do it all the time.


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## SteveF (Jan 2, 2008)

At one of our members homes, we tried to see how many R/C trains we could get on his 120 foot loop. We managed to get 5. I managed to smash into the caboose of the guy in front of me a few times. It took a lot of concentration to try that, and it is not something I'd like to try again.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 11/13/2008 11:25 AM

Sure...

But with track power, you put a magnet under the left side of a passenger engine and a reed switch on the left side of the track that tells a 555 to to trip a relay to kill that block for x number of seconds. For a freight engine, put the magnet/reed on the other side to stop at an industry. Couldn't be easier. 

But, who in their right mind would want to do anything like that? Oh, I forgot. We do it all the time.










Just as easy using battery power (easier, since you don't need the wiring), but that is hardly "programmable". What if you have more than two scenarios, i.e. 2 different freight schedules, and 3 different passenger schedules?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey us track power guys just turn'em on and run also, dont ever have to worry 'bout dead batteries, can even do multi-train at the same time no problemo..See fer yerselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgxds_saE2Q


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I just ran my new Pacific yesterday, ON track power. Had not cleaned the track in awhile, at least a week or more. It rain without a stutter or pause for over two hours. I was pleasantly surprised. Best performance I've seen on track power. Of course, it was not raining/snowing, no leaves on the track, etc. But when conditions are right track power works good for me. Yep, I have battery also and use it a lot, mostly on my smaller stuff that has a pack right onboard and is not R/C. Live steam is also run, when I feel like doing that. So, I don't think a guy HAS to lock into one system, each has it's bennies/drawbacks. I just installed one of Del's 'basic' controls, need to test that out!


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 11/13/2008 12:32 PM
Posted By toddalin on 11/13/2008 11:25 AM

Sure...

But with track power, you put a magnet under the left side of a passenger engine and a reed switch on the left side of the track that tells a 555 to to trip a relay to kill that block for x number of seconds. For a freight engine, put the magnet/reed on the other side to stop at an industry. Couldn't be easier. 

But, who in their right mind would want to do anything like that? Oh, I forgot. We do it all the time.










Just as easy using battery power (easier, since you don't need the wiring), but that is hardly "programmable". What if you have more than two scenarios, i.e. 2 different freight schedules, and 3 different passenger schedules?




Not so. You program the "critter control" so regardless of where it stops, the time doesn't vary (i.e., all stops are the same unless you change the control in the engine between stops). But, with a reed/555 at each stop, all can be of different times.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Vic 
haha...good size trains 
ha ha 
indoors


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

Hmmm, it would be nice if you created something like the RPS system only better for garden trains. Basically if you have something that can say "train 1 is at location 5 going at 10 speed" than you could do a lot with that. You could tell Train 1 to stop at passenger stops 2 and 3 but not 1 or run routes. You can implement crash avoidance. You can track exactly where a loco is at any given moment and what that loco is, its train length, and a few other odds and ends. Might be a little more than what most want to do but I grew up with computers and automation so that is what interests me. I think it could be done with battery which would give track power very few advantages. Transponding is just too attractive to me right now /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Steeeeve on 11/13/2008 1:45 PM
Hmmm, it would be nice if you created something like the RPS system only better for garden trains. Basically if you have something that can say "train 1 is at location 5 going at 10 speed" than you could do a lot with that. You could tell Train 1 to stop at passenger stops 2 and 3 but not 1 or run routes. You can implement crash avoidance. You can track exactly where a loco is at any given moment and what that loco is, its train length, and a few other odds and ends. Might be a little more than what most want to do but I grew up with computers and automation so that is what interests me. I think it could be done with battery which would give track power very few advantages. Transponding is just too attractive to me right now







" src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" />


If the 555 chip were changed out to a PICAXE, the circuit becomes programable further automating the stops. For example, the PIC could be programmed to trip the relay to stop the train for every third freight train that comes though, ignoring the first two, etc.

I do accident avoidance at my crossing using a simple gap in the rail that activates a 555 chip when a train approaches. It works for all engines and railcars with metal wheels without the need for any magnets. 

All of these track power timing/avoidance circuits can be made for ~$5 each depending on where you get parts. (I use internet surplus.) PICAXE circuits are about twice that.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

You're right Dave, in your situation it's a perfect fit. I see it as a sort of continuum where you have pure DCC users at one end, battery at the opposite end, and something like airwire in between. Where it will all end up years from now, who knows. You've sure got me thinking about it, and maybe some day the perfect combination for me will appear and I'll make the switch: Batteries will actually last as long as the manufacturers claim, environmentally sound methods of recycling them will be more commonplace, you won't need to charge some of them inside barbeques for fear of fire (don't laugh--I know airplane guys with li-po's that do this), they will shrink to the size of a walnut so they will fit in my Snoopy aircar, Tony will come out with a nice programmable receiver and handheld that's as nice as a Massoth Navigator, the manufacturers will agree on a non-proprietary interface with screw terminals, and life will be good. I figure we're a few years away, but when I see how far Aristo and Bachmann have come in the last couple of years I think there just might be hope yet. 

Keith


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

See, I always had a hard time tring to figure out where to place the power pack and control panel. 
Running back and forth to push buttons to switch the trains then running back to watch (railfan) see them run. 
Then running to push the button for the electic switch , then running over to see if there is no rock s in it and that it throws all the way. 
Then I run over to uncouple a car , then run back to the power pack. 
Boy, I'm tired BUT in shape.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 11/13/2008 5:13 PM
SNIP
Tony will come out with a nice programmable receiver and handheld that's as nice as a Massoth Navigator, ....... 
Keith

Hello Keith.
With no disrespect to Massoth who I am sure make an excellent product, but it will be over my dead body.
Complication goes against the whole RCS philosophy. 
See the other thread. http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/35/postid/61006/view/topic/Default.aspx
RCS/EVO can and will continue to be plug in compatible with Phoenix P5, but, as to a level of DCC type programmability exhibited by Massoth etc.
No way Jose.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Please Shad. 
Fix this stupid forum program so it is as easy to use as the old forum code at LSC & Bachmann or the WYSIWYG system at GR.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

who is Jose????


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a lot to be said for simplicity, alright Tony. I think it comes down to style of operation, we're really talking about two different methods or philosophies altogether. One nice simple handheld per locomotive vs one or more powerful & complicated controllers capable of operating a whole 'system', whether that is multiple locos, switches, etc. For example at the extreme other end of the spectrum Zimo now offers a handheld that is basically a whole self contained DCC station and controller in one. My preference is to have one simple yet programmable controller per loco, which is why I originally chose the LGB loco remotes--rotary speed dial, minimal buttons, great for kids and visitors, and one per user still affordable. The Navigator, though complex, is still very simple to operate but gives me more flexibility for some of the projects I'm working on. In my mind it really is the RCS of the DCC world, if that makes any sense. If and when I ever switch to battery, your system and philosophy would probably work for me because for the most part all the controller needs to run is the locomotive and maybe a signal or other simple device. All my switches are manual handthrows and I plan on keeping it that way. For the more complex projects or where computer control is used, battery just isn't such a good fit in my opinion, that's all. It's a hobby after all, and the journey is the biggest part of the fun in a lot of ways, and that means forcing myself to keep an open mind to what everyone else is doing--seeing what works, what doesn't, adapting/modifying and improving things incrementally. 

Keith 

Keith


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Keith.
It is a myth that you have to have one RCS TX handpiece for every loco.
You do not.
You can program as many locos as you like to one TX handpiece on the same frequency.
You can run them one at a time.
Or:
Ganged together in a consist.
Or:
You can operate three completely separate locos from one TX handpiece if you wish and still have control of sound triggers.
There are three main reasons why most RCS operators have one TX handpiece per loco.
1. If you only have one TX handpiece you can only have one operator. 2. The cost of each TX handpeice is very low compared to RCS competitors. So you can easily afford to have multiple operators.
3. No matter how adept you are as an operator, controlling two separate trains on the one track is not easy. Let alone three.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for that, Tony, I obviously need to read up more on your equipment. We've also learned at our place that two trains simultaneously is the limit per person--so it doesn't matter if it's DCC or battery--and three is a guaranteed wreck in the waiting. Walking in the house to answer the phone with your train still running outside is another family favourite! 

Keith


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Keith. 

I can well understand the attraction of such "capable" equipment to many LS'ers. Especially the younger ones. 
However, I believe that most of us are old(ish) and can't be bothered with the complexities of modern day electronics. 
In my mind all the Hi-Tech equipment now appearing just adds another level of complication to set up and get working. All done in the name of "progress". 
For example the new Crest equipment looks exactly like a mobile (as in cell) telephone and seems to have the same interactivity complexity. 
Most of my customers want to play with their trains and not the control equipment.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I think you've hit on something, there Tony. The way I got started with DCC is that I wanted to learn more about microcontrollers....they absolutely fascinated me and my brain went into overdrive thinking of all the possibilities. So I bought myself an Atom chip and programmer, taught myself to program it, got an electronics book out of the library to learn about transistors etc., and made a neat little gizmo for my live steamer. Anyway, once I started reading about DCC it sort of drew me in because of the challenge to learn about decoders etc., just like the microcontrollers. So for me it was as much about exploring a whole 'new frontier' as it was about thinking about long term functionality or practicality. As far as the level of complication etc., in the name of progress, I think that the technology is way ahead of the average user in DCC. The manufacturers need to spend more effort on bringing the users along by building a solid, simple foundation, then slowly add complexity or offer it as an option to advanced users in a simple & modular way. LGB was doing their best in that respect, and in many ways succeeded with MTSIII, but timing was bad and we know what happened at the end of the day, unfortunately. If the others don't soon figure this out, they will just alienate themselves from anyone starting out in the hobby. Judging by the supersocket they're slow learners. 

Keith


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Keith. 
If you have even one iota of understanding programming you are way ahead of me. 
I have zilch. As in zip. None. 
I know what they can do but as to how you would go about that, I leave to someone who does know. 
I just plug the PIC into the programmer. Program it and then plug it into the hardware and it works. 
....and keeps on working. 
My expertise in life certainly doesn't extend to maths.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 11/13/2008 10:55 PM
Keith. 

I can well understand the attraction of such "capable" equipment to many LS'ers. Especially the younger ones. 
However, I believe that most of us are old(ish) and can't be bothered with the complexities of modern day electronics. 
In my mind all the Hi-Tech equipment now appearing just adds another level of complication to set up and get working. All done in the name of "progress". 
For example the new Crest equipment looks exactly like a mobile (as in cell) telephone and seems to have the same interactivity complexity. 
Most of my customers want to play with their trains and not the control equipment.



*Hey, I'm a Kid compared to most of you!







...and I personally LOVE simplicity! plus it a big hit with the little kids...Horn Button blows horn, Bell button rings bell, up arrow equals faster.....* 


*cale *


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## Neopolian (Apr 22, 2008)

Tony Your Evo-RC Link goes to Remote control systems page. Just to let you know


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Ben. 
I will fix it.


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