# Something to ponder between Battery and DCC



## arthur (Dec 27, 2007)

Hope everyone is well. I have an issue that I would like to get some feedback on. I have been out of the hobby for almost 8 years. My layout in the backyard essentially meanders around for about 500-600 feet. It has always been DC. I have never had any issues with power, as it has always been a single loop, no turnouts. I would like to expand...I think. If I want to add sidings etc, I may need to add wiring, which I buried years ago. I like both the ideas of DCC and Battery. My yard is wooded, and I am concerned with more wire for boosters etc. Is it a big deal? Battery on the other hand is simple from what I read. I still will require a system and convert trains. What are your thoughts as I consider the future. Thank you in advance for input/output. Regards, Arthur.


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

arthur said:


> It has always been DC. I have never had any issues with power
> 
> I like both the ideas of DCC and Battery.
> 
> Regards, Arthur.


In my opinion what is most important is to go with whatever it is that appeals to you. 

Analog Track Power or Revolutions work for me outdoors and to some extent indoors. 

On the other hand I am converting a lot of the indoor layouts to MTS/DCC.

For me, for whatever choice I may make for one system there are equal reasons to go with a different system so I ignore anyone else's advice and go with whatever it is that I like for the application.

I have read various things about the effect of tarnished brass track on decoders when used outdoors but I usually resolve track conductivity issues with stainless steel track and or more electric contacts with the rails.

There is a lot of helpful assistance here on MLS for whichever system you elect to go with and I certainly don't discourage anyone from saying why they like one system over the others.

I prefer not to offer advice on how someone else should or should not do something. 

Instead I prefer to suggest that you try to see as many layouts using whatever system appeals to you and let those operators tell you how they accomplish the things that concern you.

My only advice is that there is little fun in thinking about what you want to do compared with the fun you will have when you have built something (anything). Then too collectors don't even need a layout if collecting is their "thing."

Good luck,

Jerry


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Couple of things to consider that might influence your decision.

How many locos are you planning to have eventually?
Battery power gets more expensive than DCC when you equip more than about 4 locos.
Using a trailing car with batteries and the receiver as an alternative is not my cup of tea.

How large are the locos you plan to run?
Installing batteries and the receiver in the small locos is pretty impossible

How much functionality do you ant to include with your locos.
DCC gives you more function controls than you would ever need - battery power limits that to bell, whistle and only a few more

I think battery power works well for a simple layout with two oe three locos with basic bell and whistle (or horn)
If you have a lot of locos, want more functions that you can control remotely, then DCC is the way to go.

With battery power you can also use lessexpensive aluminum track, no electronics required if you have reverse loops, but then, if you have friends over with track powered equipment they may not be able to run their equipment on your layout.

Just some thoughts
Knut


----------



## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

It is also possible to do both, which gives you DCC functions but still allows you to run on someone else's railway or run instantly without having to worry about track.

I'm used to DCC from HO, and I'm biased in favor of constant illumination, lighted passenger carriages, etc. And MTS is pre-installed on most of the locomotives I'm likely to add to my roster. That said, when I construct my outdoor railway I'll be using aluminum track and live steam. For that, battery is a much better pairing.

So, DCC indoors and battery outdoors is probably where I'll end up.


----------



## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Arthur, I've got analog, Digitrax DCC and battery powered engines. With the new plug-in decoders for USAT engines, and now Bachmann C19 and K27 locos from AirWire, it's relatively easy to convert to battery. Once you've experienced the fun of running with no electrical glitches and no block control issues, you'll be hooked.


----------



## arthur (Dec 27, 2007)

Thankx for all the replies. One concern I have is wiring. I have DC to my outside loop that I trenched years ago. What DCC wiring needs to go out to the yard, or is the wiring inside with the transformer? Sorry for the questions, I am sure there will be more. Probably should move this to DCC. Battery is still pretty cool. HA! Arthur


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I suffer through the electronics of 'Lectric trains.
I have little aptitude to struggle with DCC, I can barely follow along reading about it. I ran DC until I wanted a Wye or reverse loops. 
I would pay for a professional to install batteries and R/C and be happy to remember to recharge.
New battery chemistries DO allow smaller engine installations and costs are coming down since the negatives were assembled. Not having to maintain continuity should have value too.
DCC has all the bells and whistles, if you understand it, it can be great and perhaps worth the animosity. 
I hope which ever way you chose, it works for you and all you run on are;
Happy Rails.
John


----------



## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

arthur said:


> Thankx for all the replies. One concern I have is wiring. I have DC to my outside loop that I trenched years ago. What DCC wiring needs to go out to the yard, or is the wiring inside with the transformer? Sorry for the questions, I am sure there will be more. Probably should move this to DCC. Battery is still pretty cool. HA! Arthur


It takes two wires to run a DCC layout. You may want to connect in more points to improve voltage drop.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

If you've got the track and wiring in place, and don't seem to have trouble with continuity and conductivity, DCC is certainly an option. As Mike says, you "need" only the same two wires which your current power supply uses to connect to the track. You may find it desirable to run a bus with additional connections to compensate for voltage loss through the joints, but you won't know until you hook things up and run. 

You can get much of the same functionality of a "traditional track-powered" DCC set-up using wireless R/C with battery power. Airwire's "Convertr" receiver and Tam Valley Depot's "DRS1 Hi-Power" receiver both allow you to use any generic DCC decoder in a battery powered R/C environment. (They both use Airwire's T-5000 throttle.) You lose some of the features of DCC, especially those related to automation, but if you don't need 'em, you won't miss 'em. 

A lot has to do with the kinds of trains you are looking to run. If you like high-speed mainline trains with 3 - 4 diesels in a consist, then you may want to steer towards track-powered DCC. Those tend to draw a fair amount of current, which may tax your battery life (if running all 4 off of one battery). Also, if you want higher "mainline" speeds, you're going to need higher voltages, which means larger and more expensive battery packs. Nothing says you can't do that, but most folks who run those kinds of trains find it easier to use a DCC system that can output 20+ volts to the track.

On the other hand, if you're looking at running one or two locomotives at a time--something that doesn't require a whole lot of power--then battery power may be the better choice. Battery control options range from the dead-nuts simple to those with DCC-level complexity. Prices run the gamut as well. 

Personally, I went battery power outside 30 years ago, and have never regretted it. There's something refreshingly simple about not having to worry about track conductivity. The rails serve one purpose--to guide the train where it needs to go. With today's Lithium battery technology, run times are pushing 8 - 10 hours per charge on commonly-available packs; longer if you want to shell out the money for a high-capacity pack. The packs I use (14.8 volts, 2600 mAh) are about the size of a deck of cards, and last me anywhere from 2 - 4 hours per charge. I'm seldom in a position to run much longer than that. As mentioned above, smaller locos that don't draw much power can use smaller batteries and receivers/decoders designed for small-scale locomotives. It's getting easier and easier to fit this stuff in our trains. 

If you're somewhere near a garden railway club, get in contact with them and find out who in the club is using what. Give things a test before making your choice. (And know that you can always do both.) 

Later,

K


----------



## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Battery is far better as you can have reverse loops, wyes and full control of you locomotive while sitting on the patio drinking your favorite drink.


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

TO run DCC on your present layout and DC, all you have to do is add a DPDT switch to switch your power source. I used a center off switch to allow a guest to supply their own power or for troubleshooting a power back in real time.
I do this on my indoor and outdoor layouts as I will not switch all my engines over to DCC.

And you can run battery any time.


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

livesteam53 said:


> Battery is far better as you can have reverse loops, wyes and full control of you locomotive while sitting on the patio drinking your favorite drink.


You seem to be suggesting that you can't do that with DCC.

DCC can do all that and a lot more.

There is no question that with DCC one has a lot more potential capabilities than with battery power - the question is - does one want it.
DCC is also cheaper once one has more than a few locos that need to be equipped.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

As I see it, one of the principle advantages traditional track-powered DCC has over battery power--be it wireless DCC or any other protocol--is the presence of track power that you can use for automatic switch machines, lights and sounds in passenger cars, or even lights and sounds in lineside structures--all of which you have the option of controlling via your handheld controller so long as you have a decoder for each thing you want to control. You _can_ do that in a battery R/C environment, but you would need power and receivers for each of the things you want to control. It's quite uncommon to find folks running battery R/C with powered switches and the like. 

(I'm not a fan of automatic switches outside, regardless of how they're powered. Ballast and other debris is too easily blown into the points to be able to be sure from the comfort of your lawn chair that the switch is indeed closed properly. Just the simple action of running the train can cause stuff to bounce into the points, so cleaning them prior to an operating session isn't a guarantee of future success.)

You can do reverse loops, wyes, and other complex track layouts with DCC, though you still need to be cognizant of track polarity, build in the appropriate isolation sections, and buy the electronics to handle them. (Prices vary.) For the most part, the controls are automatic, so there are no toggles to worry about or things like that. It's not as complicated as "traditional" block wiring where you need toggle switches for everything, but still something to keep in mind. 

And as I wrote above, trying to do any kind of automation with battery R/C isn't nearly as simple as it is with track-powered DCC. There are specific systems that allow you to do it (G-Scale Graphics makes some), but you're not going to be able to use a DCC decoders' ability to perform those functions in a battey R/C environment because they're dependent on changes in the voltage on the track which you don't get with on-board power. 

But just like you don't need snow tires if you live in Florida, if you're not looking to do any of those things for which DCC offers a clear advantage, there's a lot more choice available. Figure out how you want to run your trains, what things you want to be able to control from the comfort of your lawn chair, and what long-term maintenance tasks you do and do not want to spend your time doing. 

Spend your money so to spend your time doing that which you enjoy, while avoiding that which you do not. 

Later,

K


----------



## arthur (Dec 27, 2007)

Thank you all for the info, it helps greatly to hear from all aspects of the hobby. How bout 2 or 3 separate layouts and run everything. I can dream, right?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Another principal advantage in DCC is that you don't have to be near the loco or switch machine to control it, the wireless system for throttles in many systems allows you effectively huge range. A fully outfitted NCE system could easily cover a football field.

I don't have a football field, actually a pretty small lot, but my layout is on 3 sides of the house. With several base stations, I can control everything from anywhere, where a system that must transmit directly to the loco would have issues.

Greg


----------



## Peter Eaton (Mar 11, 2015)

Went from DC to battery and love it. Some engines have receivers and some run from receivers in the battery cars. Use Revolution base receivers in the battery cars so I am able to run multiple engines and am able to rotate engines in and out of the consist. Have about 1750' of track and getting rid of the DC wiring was a blessing. Peter


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just to be clear this is about a decision between battery and DCC, not DC.

Big difference in pros and cons.

Personally I run DCC when everyone told me it could not be done, too much maintenance, etc. Well, it works fine, and have had ZERO track maintenance issues in at least 5 years. About 5 years ago I tightened a splitjaw joiner.

Greg


----------



## arthur (Dec 27, 2007)

I like low maintence. Will need to decide once I get my track releveled etc. how to proceed. I learned that when you go with a system, you essentially use all their gear. My layout runs with a Bridgewerks transformer, and my hobby shop said it won't be used. That's a bummer, it was expensive. Cheers , Arthur


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Arthur, the statement you have is false. It's true that you cannot mix and match throttles between DCC systems (although you can run JMRI on most systems, and use cell phones as throttles), but you can mix and match decoders, power supplies, etc.

So normally you pick the main system, and then you choose whatever decoders you want for locos, switches, lighting, etc.

The Bridgewerks is an unfortunate choice, almost any "transformer" will work with DCC, but the Bridgewerks has an unfortunate issue, that the output can vary under load, and unloaded it can run up to 35 volts. They are suitable only for DC locos and not as a general power supply. The good news is that a 10 amp 24v power supply, superior in regulation to the Bridgeworks, is about $60, the least of your concerns.

Unfortunately, not many hobby shops know squat about DCC or your options. There are many knowledgable people here with years of experience that can give you good advice, factual, and demonstrable.

Greg


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The keyword for input power for DCC and even DC controllers is regulated power where the power source remains constant no matter the load.
You do not want your power source to lower the voltage as the current load increases, thus this is called unregulated.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually using an unregulated supply is pretty typical in DCC, but usually the issue is the power supply sagging. The Bridgeworks does the opposite under certain conditions and can damage DCC components that are only supposed to handle 27vdc


----------

