# Wholesale Trains sales of A/C products



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I was just perusing over on Wholesale trains. They did not have a drop down box under A/C, except for general parts and some track. There were not any listings for locos or cars and such..

Just a off nite on the 'puter, ..OR .. did they pull the product line due to A/C's new business model of selling for themselves!!???


Dirk


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

In a way it's more like Aristo has pulled their own plug. They've gone to online sales and they've had monthly sales on what's left. They seem to me to be moving more towards a toy line than hobby. With toys the customers want the next new thing, hobbyists want all the product line. 

Reverse quality control... to get a raise on a second contract run, we, the parts supplier, cheapened the ingredients, hey as long as they look good, ok. No way to ensure latter parts were as good as the originals. Keeping inferrior parts earned more bad publicity.... 

There's more O scale than G at AC now.... 

John


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

It just seems weird selling only through your web site. MANY hobbyists are not on the internet. One friend, who is a member of a big club, says most in the club do not know about MLS or get on the internet to buy. Seems like Aristo really cut themselves off from most of their customer base.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Our local hobby shop cut off dealer relations with Aristocraft due to their new policies. So RC Country Hobbies no longer carries Aristocraft products. It’s too bad as RCCH has a large G scale inventory, including Revolution related products, rolling stock and track components from all OEM's. I was told they dropped the entire line after waiting months for Revolution product to finally surface… RC Country does not have an internet presence and survives on walk in traffic.

That said with the economy and internet based stuff sales are really down and not to mention a rather large local dealer, Bruce’s Train Shop recently closed down too!

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Aristo has been slowly changing things. 

Higher shipping costs, no free shipping on large orders, limitations in drop shipping, lowering of margins, etc. 

When a company does this, it often goes like this, the discount to the dealer is cut by say, 10%, and company knows it will lose some business, but that will be offset by greater sales direct and at a higher margin. 

What often suffers is customer service, and other "hidden" costs. 

An example is that when new product came in, Aristo would always tell you they were sold out in 2 weeks. Yes, that was true, because almost all the stock was sent to dealers, so Aristo had "sold" everything. 

But with direct sales, now Aristo needs to have stock itself, and of course will not sell all their stock the first 2 weeks. So now Aristo will take longer to get their money. That will make money "tighter". 

One typical response is the company now making smaller manufacturing runs... for confirmation, notice that some of the newly arrived Revo products are already sold out. Wow... wait all these months and already sold out? 

Direct sales is not as simple as it might seem at first. 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ya - how's a guy ever gonna get any more E-8/9 's from them!!! 

D


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

I guess this means that large dealers like Trainland/Trainworld will just sell what they have left of Aristo Craft stock and then d/c the line. Shame. Trainland is close by to me and I have had good experiences with them, both in person and through Web sales. I did recently place a Web order directly with Aristo Craft for some track and 2 structures. The A/C Web site gave no indication that any of the items were out of stock but when the order came one of the structures was "out of stock". My order payment was properly credited but why did the Web site accept the order if the item was out of stock. Isn't that what computers are for? 

Wayne 

Knackered Valley Railroad 
Long Island, NY


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Aristo direct sale sucks! Ordered 4 open gondolas southern Pacific on black friday ,one week and .. read on the aristo forum that some black friday orders already got to their destination,so i called aristo to see whats the deal,the gal was very helpful she called me back within the hour and told me the reason the order hasn;t been shipped is because there is only one S+F car left???? An e-mail or some contact should have followed but....I told her i take a raincheck, no was the answer,we can't do that we have a sale going on all the time(no merchandise???But a sale??) in luck of proper quantity i ordered 3 cars from the lucka something to take advantage of the 29 $ deal. I made the experience with smaller stores(manufacturers) that their customer service CARES about the customer! 

Manfred


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, lots of people like the Aristo direct sales. It's 40% off normally, and the relatively frequent lower prices and free shipping make it a deal that few dealers can match. 

But taking a 6 person company and expecting the same level of customer service in addition to them running the company as before, well it's bound to not work as well. 

No raincheck should not have been a surprise, with those prices... the sales are designed to move out product and get $$ NOW .... later is not in the plan. 

Greg


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## kleinbahn (Sep 21, 2010)

Interesting thread on another forum. 

Aristocraft has ties to Bachmann/Branchline in the UK, and are the UK agents for Aristocraft product. 

Aristocraft will not direct sell to UK customers or other UK dealers. 

Ah, sounds like the grey market car days in the US...


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Greg and others: 

Quote: 

" An example is that when new product came in, Aristo would always tell you they were sold out in 2 weeks. Yes, that was true, because almost all the stock was sent to dealers, so Aristo had "sold" everything. 

But with direct sales, now Aristo needs to have stock itself, and of course will not sell all their stock the first 2 weeks. So now Aristo will take longer to get their money. That will make money "tighter". " 

Greg, one of the major reasons that Aristo went to direct sales was hobby shops were in the final days ordering limited stock from Aristo and then having Aristo drop ship to the end customer with the hobby shop still receiving the regular sales commission as if they had stocked the item in the hobby shop warehouse inventory. That was not fair to Aristo. 

As for sales of out of stock items: 

I ordered a set of four coaches from USA Trains at a sale price. 
Only one coach was in stock and was shipped to me. 
I will still be able to buy the other three coaches at the sale price whenever these are finally mfg. in China. 
The sale was for a certain period and Charles honoured all purchases by customers at the reduced price. 
These coaches will definitely cost Charles a higher wholesale cost once mfg.'d but that is the cost of not ailienating your customer. 

The key rule in retail is to never alienate the end customer. 

Aristo needs to keep that in mind. It is one thing to lose a hobby dealer. Losing the end customer means financial ruin. 

Norman


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Uh Norman, Aristo has decded they no longer want me as a customer and maybe you too! 
You know that 1:24 you love so much? Well other than selling off the remaining C-16, they've discontinued all the Classic line, now I'd like to know what those C-16s are supposed to tow? 
If they had introduced a regular flat car and some high side gons (a modified flat car) and perhaps some spark would have developed. 
Now I don't even see Archbar trucks on site so I can make my own cars. 
Where's the logic? 

John


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 16 Dec 2012 08:46 AM 
Uh Norman, Aristo has decded they no longer want me as a customer and maybe you too! 
You know that 1:24 you love so much? Well other than selling off the remaining C-16, they've discontinued all the Classic line, now I'd like to know what those C-16s are supposed to tow? 
If they had introduced a regular flat car and some high side gons (a modified flat car) and perhaps some spark would have developed. 
Now I don't even see Archbar trucks on site so I can make my own cars. 
Where's the logic? 

John 


Well, unfortunately for those who like 1/24, Aristo's decision to drop the "classic line" probably makes excellent financial sense..

because 1/24 is really a dying niche in our hobby..I have been actively involved in Large Scale for 10 years now, im a member of a G-gauge club, I see all kinds of personal trains and rolling stock at train shows and displays that we do..I almost never see 1/24 scale locomotives or rolling stock..its very rare..The hobby has really settled down into two main scales, 1/29 scale for standard gauge, and 1/20.3 scale for narrow gauge..everything else is falling away in popularity. So Aristo is probably dropping the line simply because it doesn't sell anymore. You cant stay in business producing something people aren't buying.

Scot


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Scott I'm not suggesting that it should be anymore than it is. Everything after that is moot. 
Why did they upgrade the C-16 and not support it? That's where your analysis should be thank you. Now they have an upgraded orphan. 
Wasting money on something you don't support is a faster way to insolvancy. 
Please look past the trees of scale and you can see my point. 

Happy Rails 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Norman, I see your point that drop shipping was more expensive in the long run to Aristo. 

But, Aristo did not have to allow drop shipping, so it was their choice. 

Furthermore, there were and are discounts based on larger orders from Aristo, especially when it comes to shipping. 

It's a complicated situation for sure. 

Greg


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi John, Scot and Greg: 

You are all correct. 

Really disappointing for me that the largescale marketplace has abandoned 1:24 scale. 

Presently on ebay, there is a Delton brass Mason Bogie and two Delton brass 4-4-0 locos which continue to sit unsold. All of these locos were once in the high demand "must have" catgory. 

I understand why as the 1:20.3 scale provides the 3 foot narrow gauge look with the Gauge One track. 

But the 1:24 model size is just right. Same deal with the Bachmann 1:22.5 J&S coach. Just the right size. 

I really wanted to buy a few Accucraft J&S cars but the physical size of the cars prevents that purchase. 

Fortunately for the 1:24 scale folks, the Bachmann 1:20.3 American 4-4-0 fits in "ok" with the 1:24 rolling stock provided of course that one does not view an historical photo of a J&S coach behind a 4-4-0 while running their trains ! 

Delton chose the right scale. Their error was not in choosing the correct gauged track to develop 1:24 as at the time LGB did not produce American prototype locos. 

Imagine how annoyed Aristo Craft must now be after having spent funds to produce a new C-16 drive TWICE ! 

Personally, I will be a 1:24 scale modellor for my duration in large scale with a few 1:20.3 purchases that happen to fit in with the 1:24 / 1:22.5 rolling stock. 

The latest Bachmann C-19 loco is magnificent. But what would I pull with that loco? The Accucraft J&S coaches. So the Bachmann C-19 loco is not a buy for me. 

Earlier on, I bought the HLW Forney loco. Not super detailed like the Bachmann 4-4-0 but it has just the right overall look and the brass domes really set it off. 

The Delton 0-4-2T prototype loco is another great looker. Too bad that it was not produced. 

Phil Jensen really knew how to design good looking models which even though they are not prototypically correct they look as if they are prototypically correct. 

The Bachmann Little Hauler loco fits in just fine with the 1:24 models. 
One of the posters previously mentioned that Bachmann will later produce a more detailed loco from those molds. 
Maybe that loco will eventually be upgraded to the Annie level at which point I may buy one or two. 


Norman


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## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Posted By backyardRR on 06 Dec 2012 10:56 AM 
I guess this means that large dealers like Trainland/Trainworld will just sell what they have left of Aristo Craft stock and then d/c the line. Shame. Trainland is close by to me and I have had good experiences with them, both in person and through Web sales. I did recently place a Web order directly with Aristo Craft for some track and 2 structures. The A/C Web site gave no indication that any of the items were out of stock but when the order came one of the structures was "out of stock". My order payment was properly credited but why did the Web site accept the order if the item was out of stock. Isn't that what computers are for? 

Wayne 

Knackered Valley Railroad 
Long Island, NY 
Yes and if you noticed lately that Trainworld no longer advertises Aristocraft in there GR Ads. Manufactures NEED there dealers not only for sales but for advertising and hands on products.

I have to laugh when people said how great and quick the new revo sold out, but when you only make 50 or so thats no hard. No profit in 50 units I would think.

Jethro


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, what would have happened if we had 1:24 standard gauge track and locos? Wow, all the buildings, figures, accessories we could ever want! 

With the "contraction" in the market, and the strength of (in my opinion) Bachmann's excellent offerings of 1:20.3 NG, and the plethora and acceptance of 1:29 on 45mm track, 1:22 and 1:24 are out in the cold. 


Greg


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Isn't it amazing how during LGB's absence for those 4 years of the restructuring it went from the "600-lb Gorilla" of large scale to a smaller quieter humbler Orangutan. 

I wouldn't put 1/22.5 out to pasture just yet. After-all, even Aristo has been knocked down a few pegs after these last couple years, only Bachmann seams to holding steady, if not growing. Are they the new "600-lb Gorilla" ?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kader industries is definitely in the running for gorilla-ship.... Rumors that they might buy Aristo... 

Greg


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## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Posted By vsmith on 20 Dec 2012 11:49 AM 
Isn't it amazing how during LGB's absence for those 4 years of the restructuring it went from the "600-lb Gorilla" of large scale to a smaller quieter humbler Orangutan. 

I wouldn't put 1/22.5 out to pasture just yet. After-all, even Aristo has been knocked down a few pegs after these last couple years, only Bachmann seams to holding steady, if not growing. Are they the new "600-lb Gorilla" ? 
Plus USA Trains has had a fantastic year with all there great releases, Including the newest auto racks and NW-2 switchers Tank cars and everything else they've brought to market this year.
There's no slowing down good Company's. Out with the old and in with the new I always say.








And dont forget those great starter sets they brought in for the Holidays.

Jethro


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot
Three major scales, one must include 1:32 doing just fine (in North America, Japan, UK, Europe, Australia) in regards to products, support, services and members of gauge one.





Posted By Scottychaos on 16 Dec 2012 09:00 AM 

Posted By Totalwrecker on 16 Dec 2012 08:46 AM 
Uh Norman, Aristo has decded they no longer want me as a customer and maybe you too! 
You know that 1:24 you love so much? Well other than selling off the remaining C-16, they've discontinued all the Classic line, now I'd like to know what those C-16s are supposed to tow? 
If they had introduced a regular flat car and some high side gons (a modified flat car) and perhaps some spark would have developed. 
Now I don't even see Archbar trucks on site so I can make my own cars. 
Where's the logic? 

John 


Well, unfortunately for those who like 1/24, Aristo's decision to drop the "classic line" probably makes excellent financial sense..

because 1/24 is really a dying niche in our hobby..I have been actively involved in Large Scale for 10 years now, im a member of a G-gauge club, I see all kinds of personal trains and rolling stock at train shows and displays that we do..I almost never see 1/24 scale locomotives or rolling stock..its very rare..The hobby has really settled down into two main scales, 1/29 scale for standard gauge, and 1/20.3 scale for narrow gauge..everything else is falling away in popularity. So Aristo is probably dropping the line simply because it doesn't sell anymore. You cant stay in business producing something people aren't buying.

Scot


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

Aristo's attitude has always been "You'll buy what we make and like it." and "If we don't make it you don't need it and won't get it." I thought that this might change after Lewis retired and his kids took over but apparently not. It appears like his kids will run the company into the ground until it is ruined. Perhaps then someone will buy it from them and revive it. That's just what happened to the HO company Athearn a few years ago. Old man Athearn died, his kids took over, ruined the company amd MDC bought it. Now Athearn is doing quite well with all sorts of new products.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Charles 

On MLS "the 1:32 parrot is DEAD". Those who model 1:32 will continue, most others will go where the largest variety of products exist. END of story. 

Scot is identifying a marketing trend that is undeniable based on actual numbers. I know many 'true' 1:24 people who think all 1:20.3 stuff should be destroyed as the work of "evil ones".


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

rpc7271 

Your history is 'sort of' close about Athearn. Athearn AND Model Die Casting/Roundhouse [HO/N] were purchased and integrated into a single product line by Horizon Hobby. 
============= 
Horizon Hobby 
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 


Horizon Hobby, Inc. is an international hobby product distributor, headquartered in Champaign, Illinois, U.S.A.. 

It currently manufactures various Hobby grade radio control (R/C) models, as well as Athearn model trains, rockets, and die-cast models, which it sells direct to consumers as well as to hobby retailers. 

An employee-owned company, Horizon employs nearly 700 people and sells products in more than 50 countries around the world. Corporate headquarters, along with the main distribution facility and product service center, are located in Champaign, Illinois. Additional distribution centers are located in Ontario, California; Harlow, England (site of Horizon Hobby UK Ltd.); and Elmshorn, Germany (site of Horizon Hobby Deutschland GmbH). California is also home to the Losi RC car division (Ontario) and the Athearn train line (Long Beach). 

It is also the parent company for Athearn trains, Blade helis, Dynamite RC (Battery Chargers, Speed Controllers, Nitro Engines), E-flite, ElectrixRC, Force RC, Hangar 9, HobbyZone, Losi, ParkZone, Pro Boat, Team Losi Racing (various RC models, parts), and Spektrum Radio equipment. It is also the exclusive distributor of JR Radios in North America.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim
That might be true to those who choose to purchase the "other" options of "standard gauge" but there still needs to be a recognize of 1:32 as a viable choice. I am glad that Hans does not use MLS/Scot as a market indicators! If the end is to come (Dec 21)...I will be there for the "fire sales!" Market changes will be variable over time, as it is denoted recently that 1:16 (if I recall the recent denotation) is becoming very popular in many "market areas." 

BTW- it is not dead it is just pining. 




Posted By Dr Rivet on 20 Dec 2012 03:00 PM 
Charles 

On MLS "the 1:32 parrot is DEAD". Those who model 1:32 will continue, most others will go where the largest variety of products exist. END of story. 

Scot is identifying a marketing trend that is undeniable based on actual numbers. I know many 'true' 1:24 people who think all 1:20.3 stuff should be destroyed as the work of "evil ones".


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## tom p (Jan 30, 2009)

Two points of Aristro Craft sales. Greg stated AC did not have to offer drop shipping. Lewis started this in an effort to assist the small hobby shops. He realized they could not keep a "million dollar" inentory. So to assist them with customers who needed something they did not have on hand, he would drop ship. While well intentioned, it backfired. Many of these shops and others became internet sales, having no inventory, took orders for 100% drop shipping. The cost added to his staff plus the wholesale price did not match for any profit. Secondly, Many complaints the AC or USAT do not offer what the public wants. Is it the general public or that hobbiest and a few more? A maufacturing run is usually in the thousands. Using surveys, it may be a neat addition but if response is for only 50 or 60 items, what does one do with the rest of the run? The hobby is not large enough to support full lines of every scale.


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