# What are the hooks on the back of tenders for?



## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

I've noticed that a number of Cuvil War era locomotives have hooks on the rear of their tenderrs, just below or attached to the flare around the top. Some have two, others three, though I don't think I've ever seen any other number. By the 1880's, they seem to ahve disapeared, so what were they used for? 

I found a couple pictures from the C.P.Huntington class that show the hooks in question. Also, I notice the the Huntington had some sort of bucket/pouch hung from the hooks.. what is that?


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## Greg Stevens (Jan 3, 2008)

Ken, 

I have noted that for the most part, those hooks were used to hold a long steel cable with hooks on each end of the cable. I believe this was used in case of a coupler/link & pin failure. It was usually looped back and forth several times in a figure 8 configuration. I suppose that it could have been used as an aid in switching a parallel track like using a pole. But don't quote me on that one. As to what the buckets on back of the Huntington are for, your guess is as good as mine, but the hooks are definately used to carry a cable. I use picture hanging wire to simulate it on my locos, and make my hooks, for the ends of the cable, out of flattened brass rod. I hope this helps you understand the hooks.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

That's to hang the fish on the fireman catches in the tank.


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## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

"I found a couple pictures from the C.P.Huntington class that show the hooks in question. Also, I notice the the Huntington had some sort of bucket/pouch hung from the hooks.. what is that? " 

"That" is in case they don't make the next tank before running low on water. 
Rick Marty


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Just to keep us on Tenderhooks (sic)


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Aren't you PUNny? Or is that just PUN-ishment? 
(I probably shouldn't comment, as I had the same thought but was afraid someone would make the comments I just did!)


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I would contact the California State Railroad Museum and pose the Q to them, I would suspect the buckets were to put out any fires started by any embers created by the wood fired boiler that got past the spark arrester stack or grass fires from embers dropped thru the bottom grate of the firebox. I'm thinking more about grass fires started while the engine was stopped at a signal, water tank or at a station, any small fires in the weeds or grass could be quickly doused with the buckets. This makes more sense to me given that the CPH was a woodburner and has been restored to original condition, otherwise why would there be built-in hoops to keep the buckets from swaying and the buckets look small enough to drop down into the tank to get water.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Greg, 

I'd love to see some pictures of your models, specifically of the coiled cable you describe. 

Vic, thanks for the suggestion about putting out fires - I hadn't thought of that one. Still, if you look at the (admittedly grainy) photo above of the Huntington in service, it doesn't look like the buckets are there.


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

I can't see from the photos but does the CP Huntington have a sandline extending from the sand dome to behind the drivers as well as to their front? If not those buckets could very well be for sand. They are positioned perfectly to be used that way, one over each rail. I have heard of some backwoods railroads that applied sand by having someone sit on the footboards and dumping it on the rails when needed so such a thing would not be especially unusual for occasional use in that era.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard might very well be the Wiener! Check out this photo: 










the sandline only goes to the front of the driver, if they had to run reverse might be very difficult to get traction without someone chucking sand under the drivers


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

I have a problem with the sand theory, though. VERY few locomotives of that era, as near as I can tell, had any means of applying sand behind the drivers. I suspect that it was assumed the locomotive would be pulling, rather than pushing a train. Also, I would rather not be the guy standing there, hanging on for dear life (with very little to stand on or hold on to back there) manually putting sand on the rails.


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## james brodie (Mar 28, 2008)

Dear Sir, Sometimes fire irons were hung on the back of the bunker a la GWR small engines.Jim Brodie 
ps how can I add some photos to my letters to you.J


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By james brodie on 08/26/2008 2:56 PM 
Dear Sir, Sometimes fire irons were hung on the back of the bunker a la GWR small engines.Jim Brodie

I'd wondered about that. I always thought that the common practce in the US was to store the irons on the tender deck, since the back of the tender is somewhat out of the way. Still, it's a possibility. To rake the askpan, one would have to be off the engine anyway, so I can see it.


ps how can I add some photos to my letters to you.J

Unless you have a website to post a picture to, it seems the simplest method would be to e-mail them via the address in my signature. I'll happily post them for all to see, as I have a bit of web space as part of my ISP's service.


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By DKRickman on 08/26/2008 1:26 PM
I have a problem with the sand theory, though. VERY few locomotives of that era, as near as I can tell, had any means of applying sand behind the drivers. I suspect that it was assumed the locomotive would be pulling, rather than pushing a train. Also, I would rather not be the guy standing there, hanging on for dear life (with very little to stand on or hold on to back there) manually putting sand on the rails.




I really don't know if the sand theory is correct or not of course but if it is the buckets would probably be dumped by the fireman from on top of the tank. There are all kinds of reasons a locomotive might have to back its train or at least switch out a car or two and in all kinds of weather that include wet, slippery rails. Front sanders would be of little use for an engine backing out of a siding with a car and just two drive wheels didn't have much traction to begin with. 

As to the hooks themselves they would certainly have been used for numerous other tasks if rear sanders were later applied to the engine. This means that more than one answer could be correct depending on the timeframe.


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 08/26/2008 1:13 AM 
Aren't you PUNny? Or is that just PUN-ishment? 
(I probably shouldn't comment, as I had the same thought but was afraid someone would make the comments I just did!)


If I were ever punished 
For every little pun I shed 
I'd hie me to a punny shed 
and there I'd hang my punnish head 
-- Samuel Johnson 

Matthew (OV) 

(Oh, and I'd guess it was for a poling pole... except that it'd be a pretty short one. Perhaps for hanging a link and pin long drawbar for tight curves or switches so you could spot cars on sidings with tight geometry?)


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## james brodie (Mar 28, 2008)

the buckets are painted red so maybe could be for sand..J


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## james brodie (Mar 28, 2008)

When I was a fireman on some turns we had to get down and sprinkle by hand the sand on the rails because the sand in the sandboxes was usually wet and solid so wouldn't flow. Our boxes were under footplate level not sensible like on the boiler top to keep dry but being so we could reach in the filler hole and get handfulls out...j


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

When ever we had to drive long distances my father hated to stop, so he always kept a couple of jars in the back seat


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Interesting suggestion, Richard.  However, I an tell you from first-hand expereince that railroad crews have no problem relieving themselves off the side of a locomotive, moving or otherwise. 

We do at least try not to do it when there are people around, though


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Just a couple more things about sanding. Some of the retired Virginian and N&W steam locomotive engineers told me their trick when they had to retrieve loaded coal hoppers from a steep mine siding. They would sand on the way DOWN. That way there was still a paste of pulverized sand on the rail heads on the way back out of the siding. 


I remember that we would use that trick on the Dry Gulch RR at Hershey Park if we were expecting rain before the trip got finished. The upper and lower reverse loops were connected by a trestle, and the trestle had the bulk of the grade for that little line. It was always best to sand while things were dry if you could. Our sanders were also solely fed by gravity, and the sand lines would plug when moisture got into them. 


I tried to keep a balloon stick handy for when the sanders clogged. (The park sold non-helium balloons tied to a slender stick - I think it may have been some kind of willow wood. The sticks were very flexible.) These sticks were about 30 inches long and flexible enough to shove up the sand lines to break up the clumped sand. Unfortunately, the sand would only flow for a short time before it became clumped again. 


The more modern steam locomotives and today's diesels use compressed air in the sand lines to assist with sand delivery. 


Yours, 

David Meashey


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## james brodie (Mar 28, 2008)

been away so my pennethworth may be a bit out of sinc,it wouldn't be very wise to wee from the cab side on lines with outside third electric rails 
as to the bottom of the bucket fitted in a ring to possibly stop water spillimg-if filled with water which I doubt spillage would still take place. Our remedy for stopping water in the bucket spilling was to leave the hand brush in the water. two fold stopped spillage and when you swept up after firing the brush was already damped down (wet) Re lineside fires you just put the injector on and used the slacker pipe as a hose pipe to put the fire out. I've done it some fifty plus years back when I was a ******/stoker/fireman in the days when summers were hotter and winters winteryer. 
I still think the buckets were for sand Jim Brodie.


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## Greg Stevens (Jan 3, 2008)

DK, 
If you will send me your e-mail address, I will send you a photo of the hooks with Cable attached. [email protected]


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## james brodie (Mar 28, 2008)

DearGregg,are the cables you mention to DK hanging from the hooks that the sand buckets used to hang from? 
We used to have wagons with hooks on the solebar for tying the cord from wagon sheets onto and some of the continental wagons had cast hooks on them for tying ropes to them or chains with turnbuckles to anchor them down when going across the channel on the ferry boats. I don't think the hooks on the bunker ends would be strong enough to pull wagons along but the victorian engineers made some good quality fittings.JB


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## Greg Stevens (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes James, the hooks were for holding cable or really large diameter rope. The photo I am talking about has at least one link spliced into it. The hooks are NOT used to pull with, they are mearly for storage. The cable/rope was hooked into the link pocket on the rear of the tender and then hooked onto the other piece of rolling stock for movement. I don't know how to link photos to this message or I would do it.


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## james brodie (Mar 28, 2008)

Dear Greg sorry I mispelled your Christian name,if it's possible for you to sned a photo via e mail mine is [email protected] (even send!) it is 0733 hours!! Incidentley that used to be my cheque number when I was a fireman.Jim.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Greg, 

If you'll send me the photo, I'll put it on my web space and post it here (provided I have your permission, of course).


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Interestingly, this also shows 4 hooks, which I had not previously seen. 

It also gives me another idea about what the hooks would have been used for. There appears to be at least one coupling link haning by itself on one of the hooks. In the days of link and pin couplers, both links and pins would have had a habit of walking off. Pins could be chained to their respective cars, but the links had to be loose. I can see it being quite possible that a brakeman would need a ready supply of spare links. 

Might be practical on a model, too. Carry spare links on the tender, if you're operating with link & pins.


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## james brodie (Mar 28, 2008)

In the fifties part of a brake vans equipment(caboose)used to be a tow rope. If you were having a ride home in a van and there was a tow rope coiled round and round on the floor you looked for another train to ride on as that coiled rope meant that van was a bad rider and that's where the guard would be sitting when his train set off.No wonder you called your four wheeled cabooses bobbers.J.


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## Greg Stevens (Jan 3, 2008)

Man that was fast Ken. I just sent you that shot a little earlier today. One of these days, I'll relearn how to post photos again. James, I hope this answered your question about what the hooks are/were for on the rear of tenders.


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## james brodie (Mar 28, 2008)

I think the hooks are just carrying hooks as they wouldn't be strong enough to take the weight of anywot! or am I stating the obvious? 
but thanks for the info and photos. No matter how long you have been on the railway there is always something new to learn or is it I am a slow learner Jim.


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