# best track for seasonal mostly inside use?



## Slagmar (Apr 4, 2012)

I'm a longtime HO er who just ventured into G land. Any recomendations for a good brand of track for standard DC use? Steel, aluminum, brass?


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

If your going to be inside, and only using it once in awhile I would say go with sectional brass track from any of the main manufacturers like USA, Aristo ect.
Go with the one you can get the cheapest as with your limited usage, and being inside, you wont notice any between them.

Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you are inside, aluminum track works fine, and is the least expensive. Track cleaning with any metal rail inside will be minimal. 

Greg


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Go with code 250, it looks more realistic, especially inside. You can get code 215 also, which could be even better. Smaller codes are also cheaper, due to less material.Sunset Valley makes code 250, as does Llagas Creek and Micro Engineering.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm presuming you'll want some kind of sectional track, given the temporary (seasonal) nature of your set-up. I'd lean towards Ron's advice of the brass sectional (code 332) track from any of the manufacturers. (LGB, Piko, TrainLine45, Aristo, USA, Bachmann...) Between them all, they make a very extensive line of track in a number of different track radii and switches of varying sizes that are all all interchangeable. The "only" difference is the appearance of the ties. There's a bit of a difference in terms of the various manufacturers' switches when it comes to quality and operation, but that's a question for another thread. 

You can get sectional track in the smaller rail sizes Jerry mentions, or in the aluminum that Greg mentions, but your selection will be very limited by comparison to what you can get in the "traditional" brass. The manufacturers are much fewer and farther between. That, and given the temporary nature of the railroad, I think the code 332 brass will stand up to those rigors all the better. If the track is laid on carpet where it can get stepped on, the smaller code 250 rail or the code 332 aluminum won't have a ton of support underneath it to keep it from twisting or kinking. If it's on hardwood floors, concrete, or some place where it's a bit more "out of harm's way," then the other options are a bit more viable. 

Later, 

K


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm going to second Kevins recommendation and expand one thing on it. 

Best track = LGB or Piko track, they are interchangable and both can use the plastic strips that connect the ties at each end together and do a good job holding the track together. 

Why am I not recommending Aristo or USA? Simple, for them to stay connected you need to use the tiny tiny hex head screws at each joiner, now those screws work great if the track is going down permanantly, but if its seasonal, I can GUARANTEE that you WILL BE driven totally insane by those little screws if you have to keep putting them in or taking them out, and you will lose about half the screws as they are a major PITA to use on anything near a regular basis. 

This experience is known first hand by myself when I was building my layouts over the last few years altering track plans and moving things around every couple days. I slowly moved almost entirely away from Aristo/USA to almost exculsively LGB for the above mentioned reasons. LGB joiners combined with the tie strips do a very good job and are easy to disassemble when needed, no tiny tiny hex screw nor large magnet required to recover lost set screws.


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## Slagmar (Apr 4, 2012)

I appreciate everybodys comments. I think initially I will go with "standard" code 332 brass as there is a lot of it for sale out there. If I decide to stick with it - I will paint it to get a better look. I was thinking of soldering the track into longer sections for reduced connectivity problems. Any thoughts on that?


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## Slagmar (Apr 4, 2012)

Greg - you suggested aluminum track as the cheapest. However, I forgot to mention that I live at the shore! Al corrodes and pits here - - even inside. I know I can clean brass easily.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, if you windows are open enough to erode aluminum, then brass will oxidize rapidly too... go stainless... 

Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Before all the recommendations, it is important to question what do you try to do. If oyu are going to build a permanent layout (similar to an HO one) then sectional track is as limiting indoors as outdoors. Good designs are typiucally chieved with flextrack, which is for one reason even more important on indoor curves. You want to be able to squeeze out the maximum radius curve in a given space, and this might be just larger then an available radius, or smaller than an available radius. I would not compromise to go to the lower radius but bend the best matching radius. Same is true for all operational sections. The better you can lay the track the nicer the indoor layout looks.

Next question goes to the code. The answer to this question depends actually what you are trying to model. If you model modern standard gauge or modern European narrow gauge, they have often gone to a rail size that in either case would calculate out to be code 300 and therefore be closer to code 332 then to code 250 (forget code 215). Additionally some manufacturers wheel flanges (i.e.) LGB often require bigger clearance than you have with code 215. Lastly choices of manufacturers for switches and track are plentiful in code 332 versus code 250 or 215. The large the variety of product offering the better you can plan your layout.

The material choice? I would go with brass, but you will have to be aware that this will require at least twice a year cleaning of the railheads (of course much less frequent then outdoors) - unless you run trains every single day. If you want to avoid this you would use NiBR rail (which is Nickel plated Brass) or Stainless steel (however, 20% more expensive than NiBr and 10% of the conductivity of NiBr). Really no benefit to go stainless.

As far as Brass quality goes LGB and TrainLine45 have the same high standards in Brass, Piko brass has a specific weight that is 20% less hence they used a different, lighter amalgan and its longterm reliability will have to be seen. On the bottom of the quality ladder is AML track (reportedly it wears extremely quick). The other Chinese cousins (Aristo, USA, Bachmann) come in various grades - none can touch the quality stnadard of German Brass.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Axel, you have to PROVE that plated rail is indeed going to wear as long as solid stainless to make the statment "no benefit to go stainless". I will always take issue with such a black and white statement. You cannot say NO BENEFIT without solid proof. 

You have not been selling this rail for 10 years in the US... I know you say you have references on how long it lasts, and I personally would like them. 

Not because I don't believe you, but there have been problems with plated rails. LGB had a bad batch. 

By the way, what is the warranty on your plated rail on the plating itself? I don't need a warranty on my stainless rail (although I do need it on the ties - and I HAVE a lifetime one from Aristo) 

Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Why don't you go and travel to Berlin, Germany and look for yourself. There is a major layout that has used Nickel plated track in the commercial environment for so long and its like the Engergizer bunny. Keeps on going and going.

Additionally we have had commercial use here and the usage this track received is equivalent of your lifetime worth of running trains.

Bad batch of LGB track, so the plater made a mistake, I don't hear you use that argument against stainless steel where Aristo had a bad batch and had to recall it becasue it was pitting and stopped electroc conductivity alltogether.

All products from Germany are by law in Germany warranted for two years against manufactuers defects. 

FYI my Aristo Stainless is over 30% rusted, so much for stainless  And you know quite well that stainless is not like stainless and the hardiness of stainless varies as well. What do we know when the Chinese short sell us on the next batch again.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Come on Axel! I'd love to take a vacation, but I'm not going to spend several thousands of $$ to get to see it. 

Just send me the links... again, I am NOT saying that I don't believe you, but there should be some form of documentation to support the claims... I would be a foolish consumer indeed to not ask for some information on an investment of significant money. 

Yeah, I did say it was a bad batch, clearly identifying that it was the exception rather than the rule. 

I have never heard that Aristo had a batch of stainless that pitted... I have heard of batches with rough surfaces, ties with no UV protection, and poorly drilled screw holes... BUT, they have a lifetime warranty. 

Yes, you can get surface rust on many types of stainless, and I think it's great! It looks realistic to me. I even sprinkle lawn fertilizer on it, and wet it down to promote that surface rust, which does not harm the track at all. 

I think my track is close to 10 years old now, so I know even with all the lower quality standards, that my track has performed... 

I will also agree that the quality is lower than, for example, the stainless sold by H&R, but it's good enough to last 10 years and still going strong, so it's good enough for me. 

But, the point here is not to beat down Aristo, but just to ask for the warranty period and proof of longevity of your product. 

You supplied the warrant period, 2 years, and thank you for that. How about the links to the layouts where it's been in place for 10 years? 

Again, I am not doubting you, but when you say "(solid) stainless has no benefit at all, well, that is just too black and white... it does have advantages... maybe not one you need, maybe not for many people, but I have a lifetime warranty, you have a 2 year warranty, the lifetime warranty certainly is a benefit, and invalidates your statement. 

Greg


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

I am also running indoors and haven't quite decided on track. I'm pretty sure I will go with Aristo for the 1:29 ties but can't decide between brass or stainless. I am tempted to go with stainless but I am concerned about wear of locomotive wheel plating. How are your wheels holding up? If the wear is only a little more than with brass rail then that would be no problem. I have a couple of sets of extra axles for my switcher stockpiled. 

Thanks in advance. 

Scott


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## NYC Buff (Sep 21, 2008)

I would suggest looking at the commercial track thread for additional comments regarding code and alloy.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have not had the accelerated wear that others have had. I keep my track clean of grit and dirt (I need the traction). 

Plating on various locos varies wildly... some is good, some will come off within a few minutes of running (a bad batch of locos recently from a new factory). 

I'd rather have no work removing oxidation and having excellent conductivity and maybe more wear from stainless or nickle plated track than spend a lot of time removing oxidation. 

I started with a loop of 3 types of brass track, Aristo, USAT, and LGB... that convinced me that FOR MY ENVIRONMENT brass was a terrible choice, in one day, it needed a fair amount of work, 2 days and it took concerted scrubbing. I'm 1 mile from the ocean in San Diego. 

There was no reasonably priced nickel plated track at the time, and Aristo had prices that were 1/2 that of the fancy TGV stainless. 

Best decision I ever made. 

Greg


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

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Scott


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The one thing that is true is that you can find a person with any "experience" (meaning good or bad) on any product. What I go by is the comments in general... like 10 people say "A" and one person says "B"... 

The other consideration is trying to map the experiences with the environment, the weather, temperature, moisture, dust, sand, power, etc. 

When I recommend something to a beginner, I try to make the safest recommendation, i.e.the one which has the best chance of success. 

Inevitably, someone pops up and says "I've been using track made from spaghetti and moisten my rails with marinara sauce for 20 years... it's hard for a beginner who has not been reading and compiling information for 5 or 10 years to know the exceptions to the experience. (And by the way, that one guy in 1,000 that uses marinara sauce is not wrong, just most likely not the right choice for anyone else statistically) 

Sometimes, in the "heat of battle" small differences become magnified... where there is no significant difference.. for example, for most users, I think that Axel's rail is great... I only took exception when a blanket statement was produced... 

Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I am obtaining pictures of heavy run switches that have been 15 years in the layout and have just been lifted, with no sign of wear in their NI. What you will see in the pictures is broken ties, because the guy is redoing his layout and he lifted the switches up from the surface where he had decided top glue







them down. All the rail and frog will be lifted over to a new bed.

Stay tuned ... its coming. What's the point in showing a web link of a layout where you can't see anything close up and personal.

So let's recap:

NiBr (Nickel galvanization for Brass) has 100% corrosion resistance. 
NiBr is by 20% + cheaper than stainless steel
NiBr last a darn long time
NiBr has a much better conductivity than stainless steel (1:10)
NiBr switches come in over 24 varieties (straight, curved, x-Way, 3-way) and are typically much better machined than its stainless steel cousins. If you would machine stainless steel to that precision you would pay not
20% more but about 40% more (takes longer and the tools wear much quicker and are more expensive)

Also Important: 
NiBr should not be mixed up with NickelSilver which corrodes almost equally as fast as Brass itself. My NickelSilver tests in my layout blackened in a few month
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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Looking forward to the information. 

By the way, NiBr looks weird to me... Ni means the element Nickel, Br is the abbreviation for Bromine... Brass is not an element... I understand you are trying to "coin" a term, like NiMh, but I find it confusing. The two terms together like NiCad, LiPo normally mean mixed, not plated. 

But, it's a free country of course, just looks strange. 

I had the same results of Nickel Silver outside too, although many people feel it is superior to brass. Don't hear a lot about it. 

In talking about switches, where you say your plated brass switches are typically much better machined, I can see that the costs to machine SS are higher, no question, but still the points and stock rail machining seems trivial in comparison to what it takes to make a frog. I have seen no stainless steel frogs yet. I know SS can be cast, but it's apparently a more expensive proposition. 

I think though, an all metal frog of any metal cannot have plating withstand the wear on the point. The plated frogs on Aristo #6 just don't stand up, although they are obviously not nickel plated. 

I really prefer an all metal frog, but maybe it's not possible in a silver color? 

Greg


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## Slagmar (Apr 4, 2012)

I also find NiBr hard to read - Nickel Bromide?? How about Ni-Brass? Re: Frogs - Ni plating is commonly used to provide a hard wearing surface on softer metals. How much do heavily used brass frogs wear? If they don't wear much, nickel should wear less; as the typical Vickers hardness of Ni plating is about 150% of common brass grades. 

Obviously whether we're talking plating or SS it needs to be done properly.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes nickel will wear better than brass, but the problem is that you cannot visually inspect the condition of the plating until it fails. 

Solid stainless of course has no wear issues compared to everything also. 

A good warranty is the best situation for plated rail. 

Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 02 May 2012 04:58 PM 
Yes nickel will wear better than brass, but the problem is that you cannot visually inspect the condition of the plating until it fails. 

Solid stainless of course has no wear issues compared to everything also. 

A good warranty is the best situation for plated rail. 

Greg 
That's why they are using pot metal for the frogs in the stainless steel switches, plated pot metal that is









If you go down to New York you will find on Canal street fake watches that are plated with gold, which wears off 1,2,3. Not every metal is fit for lasting plating. NASS, NIRASS, NiBrass (just to have a few more choices) is actually not Nickel of Brass, but Copper over Brass and then Nickel over Copper. Degreasing is very important otherwise the procedure will not work in the fist place.

THe one time LGB batch that was "defective" failed basically within a couple of months.

While further researching this, Conrad Electronik in Germany even offers a 1 step handplating tool nad some G-scalers over there have just plated the railheads, with longlasting results and that was not even a factory method.

Due to the holiday week in Germany I will get my pictures in a bit. Forgot about that there are taking some time off around May 1st.


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## tommyheadleycox (Oct 15, 2010)

I run my Märklin large scale engines indoors in a really big room. I have a supply of LGB brass, Aristo brass, Märklin stainless, and Sunset Valley aluminum. I have found conclusively that in my environment, cleanliness of track metal is trivial compared to the need for perfect electrical conductivity - aka the need for joiners that don't suck. I once spent a few days running a side by side experiment. I set up big loops of aluminum, stainless , and brass (2 kinds) using the manufacturer's own joiners. I ran a digital engine around each loop at slow speed. Every single material suffered from some loss of connectivity at some joints. Then I ran a wiring buss to every single piece of sectional track. Voila. Perfect running. On every material. Despite widely varying differences in oxidation. Conclusion for indoor track selection? (at least for me) Choice of metal= immaterial. Choice of connectors = critical. What I've learned is that I can concentrate on choosing track based on aesthetic appeal (that "perfect" look) without regard to metal choice. It's just not a factor in my indoor operation. But joiners most definitely ARE a factor.

My .02
Tom


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I stipulate you didn't have enough oxidation going in your test, because I can feed power to a complete oxidized piece of brass and can't get any power to the engine.

Secondly, if the connection is important (and I agree) then I would already make a difference in verbiage "joiners" versus "clamps". Joiners unless screwed into the rail are the weakest of the connections, while clamps provide solid connectivity (and if used with antioxidant cream - lasting). Of course you can solder rail by rail too









Lastly, there is a difference between analog and DCC track power in the experience. While I have not been able to proof this scientifically I did at at least empirically.


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## tommyheadleycox (Oct 15, 2010)

Greetings, Axel,

You may be right about not having enough oxide on the brass. But I don't see how I could have had any more, at least on the Aristo. To achieve that nice brown weathered look, I put all my Aristo track at the bottom of a leaf pile outside and left it there for about a year. ( I may have read about this technique in this forum, years ago.) It was this Aristo brass that I used as one of the test materials in my experiment! And once again, I'll say it: That track presented no problems at all once I ran a wiring buss to every section. as you said, i proved it to myself empirically.

I like the distinction you make between empirical proof and scientific proof. It's very, very hard to prove anything, scientifically, Which is why a biologist friend of mine likes to say "We never say "the evidence proves that.... such and such... happens; intead we way the evidence supports the conclusion that such and such happens."

And that's true in spades for all of us debating which track material to buy. My purpose, really, in all of this, is to let others know what I found out the hard way: If you're experiencing poor running, first make sure you've good electrical conductivity throughout. THEN, start suspecting other culprits like dirty track. 

Finally - thanks for pointing out how important it is to distinguish between "joiners" and "clamps." I've run into some truly awful joiners! About all they did was keep the pieces of track in the same neighborhood with each other!

Regards,
Tom


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Axle, I was talking about track. I will agree the cheaply plated pot metal frog on the Aristo #6 is crap. No contest. 

I have had brass oxidize enough in 2 days that none of my locos would run, and this was a loop of track made of LGB, Aristo, and USAT. 

My environment is 1 mile from the ocean, which is a perfect oxidation "lab". 

Greg


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