# Information and thoughts needed!



## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Now that I finally have my layout up and running I'm finding that the locos I have just don't seem to have the power that I was hoping for. When I had my garden tour open house (mentioned in one of my other posts) the engine that ran the best with the least amount of trouble but still without more than one car behind it was a Bachmann Percy engine I picked up for my grandson. My Spectrum shay, Spectrum C16 and my Aristocraft bumblebee all ran terribly with lots of fits an starts. I ran Percy pulling a cleaning car for over an hour around my track before I even tried any of the other engines and it didn't help a bit.

With all that in mind I'm wondering if I would be better of going to all battery power if that would help or if there is something else I should try that would be cheaper..... For the number f engines I have right now ( 8 ) it think it would a bit pricey to change everything over to battery anyway.... 

Your thoughts and ideas are appreciated.....


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## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

Did you clean the drivers and the contacts in the engines???


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Are you using rail clamps? or just rail joiners?


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Most of these engines are new out of the box.... Have been run a very little and set on display since....

I mainly use rail clamps but I do have some rail clamps. Even though some , like the bumble bee, will run around the track but I can only pull one car behind them and the sound starts and stops. Others have problems even at the power connection points along the railroad!


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

What kind of track? Aluminum, Brass or Stainless?
If aluminum, there is quite of bit of expansion/contraction with temperature.
Which could cause electrical problems.
Ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, this could be a number of things, but if all locos run poorly, I'd look at the track first. 

Not all track cleaning cars are created equal, do you have brass rail? 

If the track cleaner did not help at all, either it did not clean the track, or the cleanliness of your track is not the problem. 

How far apart are your power feeds, and for that matter, what are the layout dimensions? 

What kind of joiners? 

I have run track power for years and no problems, but there is maintenance to do, and certain things to make it more reliable. 

Regards, Greg


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott, the symptoms appear to point to an inadequate power supply. What are you using to power the track????


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

ok ok ok.... I guess I need to provide a few more details!!  

I have stainless steel track, in an oval around my backyard which is about 75' wide and 35' deep. So double that (for down and back) along with a passing siding in town, about 20' long, and an additional section across my creek, so another approximately 50'. So figure about 310' total trackage including spur sidings. For all of that I use the Aristo rail joiners along with some split jaws mainly where power connects. The power connections are about 30 to 40 feet apart maybe a little less... All power supplied by an old MRC 6200 power supply unless I'm running one of my two dcc units which is powered by a Crest Ultima 10 amp unit and controlled by a NCE control unit and honestly the DCC locos runs worse than the DC locos do . The track cleaners are Aristo.


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

you can see some of my layout and get a better idea what I have here..... 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/4/aft/121356/afv/topic/Default.aspx


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Scott,

Do you have any test rollers or failing that a few sections of track where you can test each loco on the "bench".
You basically need to approach this problem by eliminating potential problem areas until you're left with the real one (or ones - could be more than one)

First thing I would do is to check each loco in some test environment to see if it runs well on it's own, not on the layout.
Before I bought test rollers, I just used a piece of wood the length of the loco and a bit narrower than the track gauge to support the centre but have the loco wheels dangling.
Then applied power to just check the motor and the gears without any track pick up at all.
Not sure that will work well with every loco - mine are all LGB and I connected the power to the sliders.
But basically you want to eliminate the loco itself as the "problem" - or if it is, then you don't waste time working on the power at your layout.

Have these locos ever run well on your layout?
Seems to me with SS track you should have no issues with power pick-up from the track but I think you need more track feeders since the resistance of SS steel track is pretty high compared to brass.
Also what gauge of wire are you using for your power feeders?

I always dig out this chart to show the resistance of stainless steel track vs brass vs standard AWG copper wire

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The MRC is a barely adequate transformer for DC, it won't even put out 2 amps at top voltage. It's not useful for more than one loco. I gave mine away. 

But you have the same problem with a 10 amp DCC system, so power delivery does not seem to be the only problem. 

One thing to be careful of here is having 2 problems at one time and not moving forward, because if you fix one, the other still exists. 

So back to basics. 

1. I would discourage further testing on DC until you get an adequate power unit. You could get an Aristo throttle and use it from your Ultima. 

2. Have you tested your DCC locos on another person's layout? Do they work well there? 

3. I'm suspecting poor power connections, the Aristo joiners are pretty iffy, especially the SS ones, since SS is harder, they are not bent well to conform to the rail, the only real electrical contact is through the screw heads to the joiner. 

4. If you run your DCC loco right on the track segment that has power, is it fine? 

5. There is also the possibility of shorts, if you have Aristo #6 switches, quite often the microswitch gets hung up and power to the frog is wrong. There are air gaps that SHOULD insulate the frog, but often the rail moves and they touch. 

See if any of this helps... Your spacing of feeders is the same as mine, and I run 10 amp trains on SS rail, so let's not get hung up on SS resistance, yes it's much higher in relative terms, but in the real world, very little loss is in the rails, it's almost always bad connections. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott. 
Given your problems as listed, you seem to have made up your mind already. (Line # 5 of the original post). 

The only thing to decide is which brand of battery R/C will best suit your needs.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, "line 5" will vary depending on the resolution of your monitor, and the size of the window. 

I assume you are referring to: "With all that in mind I'm wondering if I would be better of going to all battery power if that would help or if there is something else I should try that would be cheaper..... For the number f engines I have right now ( 8 ) it think it would a bit pricey to change everything over to battery anyway.... " 

1. I don't think it's better to go battery power if you already have the locos, and a traditional DCC system to use. 
2. Nothing is cheaper than DC track power 
3. Yes, it would cost a lot of money to go from DC and pre-existing DCC to battery. 

I don't see that he has made up his mind, I see that he is asking questions. 

The answers so far are addressing his issues. 

Let's see how the investigation goes, before you assume he has thrown in the towel on track power, ok? 

And please, let's not turn it into yet another battery vs. track power debate. 

I've given my best answers, lets see what his results are. 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 14 Aug 2011 08:19 PM 
Tony, SNIP
1. I don't think it's better to go battery power if you already have the locos, and a traditional DCC system to use. 
2. Nothing is cheaper than DC track power 
3. Yes, it would cost a lot of money to go from DC and pre-existing DCC to battery. 

I don't see that he has made up his mind, I see that he is asking questions. 

The answers so far are addressing his issues. 

Let's see how the investigation goes, before you assume he has thrown in the towel on track power, ok? 

And please, let's not turn it into yet another battery vs. track power debate. 

I've given my best answers, lets see what his results are. 

Greg 

Greg,
Your point number three is questionable and actually seems to be an attempt by you to turn this into a battery - vs - track power debate right now.
If the advice being given requires the expenditure of more money with the possibility of no improvement, Scott's fears could be well founded.

So far I have refrained from any battery - vs - track power cost comparison but if it proves to be that track power solutions do not work, it may well be that if battery fixes the problemsit could work out less expensive after all.
It has been my experience over the 20 plus years I have been doing this is, that locos that no longer pick up well generally benefit from a conversion to battery R/C and give a performance almost, if not better, than they did originally on track power.
I entirely agree that we should wait until the tests, possible fixes and results are in. Then perhaps the debate you always seem to worry about, will be legitimate.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, the question is will it cost a lot for him to convert to battery when he is ALREADY track power. What he has should work with ZERO cost. 

So his statement: "For the number f engines I have right now ( 8 ) it think it would a bit pricey to change everything over to battery anyway." 

Is true, and my #3. 

Yes if he was starting from SCRATCH, and then you would compare aluminum track and battery power vs. track power, transformers, and wiring power, then the battery vs. track power would be appropriate, and he might not have a DCC system either. 

In that case, track power vs. battery power would definitely be open to cost analysis. 

But, he has a system that SHOULD work for NO additional $$, so is why I think the following statement is clearly true: 
"3. Yes, it would cost a lot of money to go from DC and pre-existing DCC to battery. " 

Because it should cost ZERO to fix the problem (since we never include the hobbyist's labor) 

Something fundamental is not right here, and there are many people like me who enjoy reliable running on track power and SS rail, both for DC and DCC. 

Regards, Greg


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

ok let me jump back in this conversation..... after all it is my trains and my wallet that will be affected.  

I have not completely decided to go to battery power just because I don't know if it will make much difference and, I very sure, will cost me a good amount of money. With that said however, IF I find that nothing that I can change in regards to track power will make much difference and there is hope that battery power may improve things then I will probably start with one loco and see what happens. 

As for the other questions regarding power connections, I have a return question.The way I have thing powered now is like this... Power out from the transformer to a point on the track, from there I run a jumper to the next connection point. From that point I run another jumper to the next point, and so on all the way around my layout. Is this an acceptable method or should EVERYTHING run back to a power block that is then connected to my tranformer? If that is the case then I'm in for some real work again!!


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

as an addition to my previous comments, While I have not decide whether to go to battery or not I do like the flexablilty of being able to take my locos and run them where every I find track and an onwer willing to allow me the track time. Thanks Marty!!  For me besides the costs, I have next to zero confidence when it comes to rewiring the electronics in my locos. I have Dave Goodsen a.k.a old crumudgem for his help getting the one loco I have that IS battery powered setup years ago, though the batteries are now useless and the loco is a shelf piece. It does kind of scare me to tear down a loco that I paid $400 or more for and not be sure that it will run when I get it, IF I get it, back together.... talk about added costs that I just can't afford!! YIKES!


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Scott, 

As I posted before, you need to approach the trouble shooting * logically *, step-by-step, to quickly home in on the problem. 
Once you know what the problem is, then you decide which solution (if there is more than one) it makes the most sense to implement. 

Based on your original description: 
the engine that ran the best with the least amount of trouble but still without more than one car behind it was a Bachmann Percy engine I picked up for my grandson. My Spectrum shay, Spectrum C16 and my Aristocraft bumblebee all ran terribly with lots of fits an starts. I ran Percy pulling a cleaning car for over an hour around my track before I even tried any of the other engines and it didn't help a bit. 
the problem could be with the locos themselves, or the prime power available (as Greg mentioned, the power pack is marginal) or the power distribution (more the feeders rather than the track joiners since the Percy runs well and the others don't - locos with higher current draw will see a larger voltage drop). 

By far the majority of Large Scale railroads use track power as opposed to battery power, there is absolutely no reason why your trains shouldn't run perfectly on track power, the track vs battery power decision needs to come at a later time after you figure out what the current problem is and you fix it. 
If the problem is within the loco, the motor, the gears, the internal power connections in the engine, then switching to battery power won't make an iota of difference until that problem gets fixed. 

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The "daisy chaining" of power feeds is probably your problem. You have many connections and many places to have a high resistance connection. 

You really need to run your feeders back individually to your power supply. 

If that is impossible, then make sure all of your "daisy chain" connections are SOLDERED. 

What gauge wire are your feeders? 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. your DC power pack is marginal, get a better one, or to save money, get an Aristo throttle to hook to your Aristo power supply. 

Regards, Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

there is hope that battery power may improve things 
It is almost a certainty that you will find battery power most enjoyable - if only because you don't have to clean the track and the trains run and run and run . . But it isn't cheap, especially for 8 locos. You could do a lot worse than to convert just one, so you have a loco that will always run, even during a power failure - as a back-up plan. 

from there I run a jumper to the next connection point. From that point I run another jumper to the next 
I'm with Greg, and I'll say the same in my own way. 
Our cable TV wires are daisy-chained from each drop to the next room, so the top floor loft has 4 splitters between it and the outdoor feed. We can't run a cable modem upstairs. 
It seems quite possible that one of your jumper connections is a high resistance - they need to be very thick copper wire and properly soldered. After all, the rails are going the same place as the wire - in parallel - so what's the point of the jumper if it isn't a better conductor than the rails? 

The whole reason for jumpers is to feed the transformer ouput directly to the rail section, so you need to run some wires direct to each part of the layout.


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

well gang I have finally done a little bit of testing and data gathering....

I went out today and fired up the old MRC transformer I have hooked up. Tested voltage at the transformer... !8.5vdc

Then I went around the layout to several different points including those that are the furthest from the transformer and tested the voltage again.... 18.3vdc

Not sure if that really gives me a good indicator or not but at least I know I have good voltage all the way around the layout.

Next I will try cleaning the pickup wheels on a couple of my locos and see if that makes much difference.

Wish me luck!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nope, does not give you a good indicator, you need to test under load. 

You can have problems, and unless you test under load, you can get perfect voltage under no load, and still have high resistance problems. 

You need to get something to load down the system, like 2 headlight bulbs wired in series... 

(the key is that voltage loss from bad connections is directly tied to the amps drawn, your meter draws next to nothing so the bad connections do not show up) 

Greg


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