# New to Forum, new to DCC, starting new layout with Massoth



## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Hello All!

As many before me I spent some time lurking around on this forum trying to obtain as much information as possible. After doing a lot of reading I know feel I have gotten myself in nice and deep so need to get some simple and maybe not so simple questions answered. I purchased a G-Scale system about four years ago and was initially running analog DC. When I purchased my first engine, LGB Mogul, I informed my local store that I would be moving to DCC. The primary purpose at that time was for a Christmas train to display Thanksgiving through the New Year. I have reached the point where I am ready to significantly increase the size and complexity of the layout and also create one that is not just for the holidays. I would like to have the first phase ready for Thanksgiving 2012.
 
I am not sure what is appropriate but I have created the layout using AnyRail 4, but do not see a link to attach the layout files or a .pdf. This year I purchased a Massoth Central station to control the onboard decoders; engine, passenger cars, hobo shack, and caboose. The layout basically follows the front foyer of our house. I will need to build supports that will attach to the railing and also a couple of posts to support sections away from the railing. The plan is fully modular so it fits this space but can be reassembled in the basement for use the remainder of the year.

The design incorporates two attached loops and a third inner "reverse loop" something I was unaware of until I read this forum, but would have found out about in a bad way otherwise. There is also going to be an area for a "timed stop." Also from reading this forum I plan to isolate multiple sections of the layout even though they are straight through to aid in troubleshooting? Complete layout will have passenger on outer loop, freight on inner loop and a switcher in yard.

1. How do I attach files and images if I don't have a site to link to?

2. Is there any way to determine which decoder is in my engine without taking it apart or calling the shop and hope they remember?

3. Since I have started using Massoth, would I need to use the 8157001 reverse module and the 8155001 multi-function module? Looking at the cost the timed stop this will have to wait a while. For the 8157001 there are two configurations by the description the one using "reed" switches sounds best. Any reed switch recomendations? 

4. If I use insulating isolators during the initial build can I safely wire the layout in series, minus the reverse loop?

5. The other questions I have will be more clear once the layout can be shown

Thanks in Advance,

Chris


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

*RE: New to Forum, new to DCC, starting new layout*

if your system can read cv's you can ask it ...... cv 8 will read back a number which you can then look up to see who made it


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

*RE: New to Forum, new to DCC, starting new layout*

I have Massoth Central Station and Navigator, not sure how I would do that.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

*RE: New to Forum, new to DCC, starting new layout*

Edit the subject of this thread to include Massoth, then those that know will chime in. 

Good Luck and Happy New Years









John


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Went into Navigator under DECODER PROGR. Selected CV Reading, entered 0008 for CV-Nr. and value returned was "X"


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris:

_>2. Is there any way to determine which decoder is in my engine without taking it apart or calling the shop and hope they remember?_

Yes there is, by using the programming track and your Navigator. Put the locomotive on the programming track, and select menu on the Navigator (m3 button), use m1 and then m2 to select decoder programming from the main menu, use m1 and then m2 to select cv reading from the decoder programming menu, enter 8 and press m2 and the value of cv8 will be displayed. 

_3. Since I have started using Massoth, would I need to use the 8157001 reverse module and the 8155001 multi-function module? Looking at the cost the timed stop this will have to wait a while. _

I would certainly recommend using the Massoth reverse loop module as well as the multifunction Module. Massoth make track contacts (reed switches) as does LGB and the price is about the same. 

Mohammed
www.allaboutlgb.com


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris: 
Is the locomotive on the programming track? if not it should be there , not on the main. 

Mohammed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Realize that you do not have to use Massoth only for your other components, the best price on the massoth reverse loop product was $120, you can buy a PSX-AR (autoreverser and circuit breaker) for $50 that has no relays and handles more current. 

Regards, Greg


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Posted By mbendebba on 29 Dec 2011 08:35 PM 
Chris: 
Is the locomotive on the programming track? if not it should be there , not on the main. 

Mohammed That would explain it, I don't have a programming track connected, will make one this weekend since the current display will be taken down.

New layout will have 168' of track and 12 Aristocraft turnout switches.


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 Dec 2011 09:07 PM 
Realize that you do not have to use Massoth only for your other components, the best price on the massoth reverse loop product was $120, you can buy a PSX-AR (autoreverser and circuit breaker) for $50 that has no relays and handles more current. 

Regards, Greg 



Thanks!

I will keep forum abreast of my progress. Next few months will be centered around buying track and making the plywood frames.


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Here is the layout!










The thin orange line indicate the foyer railing. The thin green line indicates the walls of the entry foyer and staircase. The blue lines are where I am planning on making the section cuts.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris:

The Massoth reverse loop module does not have to rely on short circuit detection to adjust polarity. With track contacts in place, it detects the polarization of the entering train and adjusts the polarity of the reversing loop section accordingly before the train enters the loop. The PSX-AR waits until a short circuit is detected and then adjusts polarity. That is the most significant difference between the two. 

Mohammed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mohammed, was I correct in stating that the Massoth unit has relays? 

This is what I have been told, but it is secondhand information. 

Greg


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Image format







didn't work for me, link below. The manual states kit contains supplies for the sensor tracks. However it doesn't state how long or short sensor tracks can be. I'm a newbie so looking for more info. It also states "Track contacts (reed contacts) may be utilized instead of the sensor tracks. This may improve the interference resistance but requires a magnet under each locomotive."
*

*http://www.indyevents.com/chrish/pl...layout.jpg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris: 
The sensor track segments are included in the kit. The kit contains everything you would need to set the Massoth reverse loop module for sensor track operation. 

Mohammed


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Posted By mbendebba on 30 Dec 2011 09:21 AM 









Chris: 
The sensor track segments are included in the kit. The kit contains everything you would need to set the Massoth reverse loop module for sensor track operation. 

Mohammed 


Oh, wow! THANKS! Looks like I will be whipping out the hacksaw!


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Any real merit to isolating areas of layout since this is a temporary/modular design? 

Would love to have two trains running with the passenger train doing a timed stop at station (outside loop), starting switching to inside loop, one full loop switch back to outside for timed stop again. All without colliding with the freight which is always on the inside. As a newbie I am guessing stop release would need to be triggered by freight train somewhere on inside loop? I'm guessing magnet would need to go on bottom of observation car, to signal inside or outside loop, and also to set back to straight.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris: 
I would keep simple at first, and increase its complexity as I get more confident; you could modify the inside loop slightly to avoid the reverse loops for now. You could then work on the timed stop by using your multifunction module, and once that is done, proceed to deal with right of way as the passenger train enters the inside loop by using a train detection, a feedback module, and the automatic programming functions built into your navigator. 

Mohammed


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Any help on getting layout uploaded?


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

do not want to.


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks! What did I do wrong?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By dawktah on 30 Dec 2011 10:18 AM 
Any real merit to isolating areas of layout since this is a temporary/modular design? 

Would love to have two trains running with the passenger train doing a timed stop at station (outside loop), starting switching to inside loop, one full loop switch back to outside for timed stop again. All without colliding with the freight which is always on the inside. As a newbie I am guessing stop release would need to be triggered by freight train somewhere on inside loop? I'm guessing magnet would need to go on bottom of observation car, to signal inside or outside loop, and also to set back to straight.

You can do this very simply with the Lenz "asymmetrical DCC" approach. You isolate one section of rail, and put a set of five diodes on the track to drop the voltage on one rail. When the decoder senses the asymmetry, it responds in various ways--it can stop, wait, and start again, or stop, wait, and reverse direction. I'm using it to create a back and forth trolley line. It requires no additional wiring, just the five diodes.

Downside is you need a lenz decoder or a decoder which specifically recognizes "asymmetrical DCC." 

protecting a crossing or a switch is a little more complicated--see my thread on "protecting a crossing" in the DCC section


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Posted By mbendebba on 30 Dec 2011 11:26 AM 
Chris: 
I would keep simple at first, and increase its complexity as I get more confident; you could modify the inside loop slightly to avoid the reverse loops for now. You could then work on the timed stop by using your multifunction module, and once that is done, proceed to deal with right of way as the passenger train enters the inside loop by using a train detection, a feedback module, and the automatic programming functions built into your navigator. 

Mohammed 
Thanks, Mohammed, I appreciate it!

The Massoth reverse loop looks pretty straight forward now that I have seen it. No programming necessary. I would want to work on the loop switching after the layout is complete. I can spend all of 2013 on this. I could remove three turnouts and eliminate the reverse loop. I like challenges! Once I have this working with a single train adding the second would be simple without the stop.

I may be wrong but I want to put in as manyof the insulators in original build as possible. I'll be cutting a few plywood sheets to get this to fit our foyer perfectly.

--Chris


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

You are welcome Chris, have fun. 

Mohammed


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Some additional information:

1st Posting pictures
You need either your own web space or you need a 1st class account that gives you web space on MLS

2nd Reversing loop techniques
You either work of polarity detection which requires no additional track segmentation (other than the loop itself) or you work with magnetic or physical track sensors (the later uses little track interruptions) You will need to track sensor areas, one for coming into the loop and one for going out of the loop. The track sensor methods doesn't "detect" anything, it plain vanilla switches based on the trigger impulse it received. You can enter the loop only from one area (otherwise you need 4 track sensors). The polarity detection is direction independent.

3rd Breaking/stopping
There are two automated ways of breaking, asymmetric DCC and Break on DC. Some decoders can do both most can do break on DC. In this case you switch a track segment over to DC and the train stops. As soon as that segment receives DCC again the train starts again. Since asymmetric DCC is more limited (as in supported decoders) I suggest break on DC and use a a relay over a timer to switch from DC back to DCC.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

anyone else look at the layout plan ? it has two reverse loops back to back ........ where would you put the gaps ? and auto reversers?


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

As per Mohammed's recommendation changed the layout to remove the reverse loop. I also removed the section which will cross over the base of the stairs. I could see this going really wrong. In the attached photo, I have two switches "in red" which will be replaced with straight track in the first phase. At a later date, if at all, the reverse loop would be implemented. Being someone who has used computers since 1983 I'm looking forward to this!









I need to find an excellent source to read on CV programming. The DiMax Navigator manual is not very helpful for this. The final design I would like to route based on the load not the Loco so thinking will try the DiMax Loco ID reader. Tag the cars in first post. 

Phase I completion of layout with passenger timed stop
Phase II passenger alternate inside to outside loop and vice versa
Phase III add freight inside loop only. Collision avoidance
Phase IV add third Loco freight first freight returns to siding timed delay second frieght leaves from siding

--Chris


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Why doesn't syntax [img'] url [/img'] work? Minus the apostrophe of course. Works flawlessly on another forum I am on.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris: 

Do you have a Massoth programming module? If so go to Massoth Website and download DCC programmer, it will certainly help a great deal with CV programming. 

As to the new layout jpg. just post the URL for it and I will load for you. 

Mohammed


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Looks like I'll be getting the USB version before I even start on layout. 

Cv 8 Value is 123 which is default for Massoth?

http://www.indyevents.com/chrish/plog-content/images/chriss-photo-albums/train/new-layout.jpg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris 
I think this is a much more manageable layout to start with. I like it. 

Mohammed


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks! I have to find two LGB 10080 tracks. They only come in EU pattern? I guess I need to find them first.


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks! I have to find two LGB 10080 tracks. They only come in EU pattern? I guess I need to find them first.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

chris: 
www.onlytrains.com has LGB 10080 tracks in stock, and you may also find some on ebay. 

Mohammed


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I always look at the play value. With this perspective of course the first layout had more interesting capabilities than the second one. But for simplicity reasons I understand why the second one. However, with that said what is the benefit of a single reverse loop?

On a point to point layout two reverse loops serve the purpose of returning trains at each end. On a layout like this a reverse loop serves the pupose to change the direction of a train. However, a single reversing loop only allows for that change to occur only once. The benefit is rather limited for the extra cost. So I would take the two switch combination (red) out and eliminate all reversing loops.

Otherwise I would stay with design one.

Just another view point.


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

Rather than buy a short section of track, why not use a spare one foot section and cut to length. Probably cheaper and you know you will get the right fit. 
Steve


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris: 

if CV8 is equal to 123, it could either be an LGB or a Massoth decoder, both manufactured by Massoth. Read CV7 to determine version number and I may then be able to tell whether it is an LGB or a Massoth decoder. 

Let me know if you want a USB version of the programming module, I know where you can get one immediately. 

Mohammed


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Posted By SLemcke on 02 Jan 2012 06:38 PM 
Rather than buy a short section of track, why not use a spare one foot section and cut to length. Probably cheaper and you know you will get the right fit. 
Steve 
That's a good idea since it will allow me to use US track from Aristo which I already have started purchasing. I definately like the idea of "play value." During the holidays would like it to be "automated." If it is too simple then there is nothing to run maunually, when we have guests etc. Have to brainstorm since I am trying to do this in a confined space. Being suspended was trying to stay two dimensional.

--Chris


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

After some gentle prodding I combined the original layout with the second.







I also gave myself room to add in a reverse loop later, although this layout allows me to run two passenger trains and two to four freight at the same time if properly timed, switched and blocked.

I went ahead and joined "First Class" to upload m own images.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris:

This is a perfect good first step. You can have some nice fun with this and it is much better than the previous one. To make things smooth I recommend flextrack over sectional (allows also for eithier tweaking and modifications) and I would consider here and there a few curved switches.

Especially in the lower left corner you eliminate the narrow curve and counter curve of the switch/curve combination to get to the inner track.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris: 

That looks reasonable, what is the scale? are you using AnyRail4 for drawing the layout? if so, are using the LGB Track library? 

Mohammed


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Mohammed, using AnyRail4 and Aristo library. I already have Aristo (US) track in current layout. Have LGB disconnects and a few LGB short straight tracks in this new layout. Sleepers won't match at the rate I am going. So will cut to fit

Alex, That curved switch Piko is in manual so would need to adapt a motor. What would happen leaving as is? Planning on slow/slow-stop in this section.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By dawktah on 03 Jan 2012 12:12 PM 
Mohammed, using AnyRail4 and Aristo library. I already have Aristo (US) track in current layout. Have LGB disconnects and a few LGB short straight tracks. Sleepers won't match at the rate I am going. So will cut to fit
Now that makes sense!


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Cv 7 is 025


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris: 
I was afraid of that. That version is common to both. Put the loco on the track, increase speed, and then press F8. If the engine slows down,it is a Massoth, otherwise it is an LGB. Press F8 again to complete the test. 

Mohammed


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

This decoder was installed in 2010. Shop was informed I was going to be using Massoth. Why would they put in a LGB? Is Phoenix a decoder or just sounds?


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Long story short trying to see if pulsed smoke generator can be added to LGB Mogul?


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris: 
If it were installed in 2010, and cv7=025, it is a Massoth decoder (the current version at that time). Yes you can add a pulsed smoke generator to the Mogul and have it connected to the Massoth decoder. The pulsed smoke generator can be synchronized with wheel rotation or a simulated pulse produced by the decoder. Wheel rotation synchronization requires the installation of a pulse generator axle in the gear box, no terribly hard to do. 
I do not know much about the Phoenix except that is has great sound. 

Mohammed


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Well What do you think! Nothing wrong apparent? Need 92.5" to stop passenger trains.

Removing the curve/switch created a double track 36" bridge. I think I need to stop here!









Now to learn how to create the station stop and collision avoidance.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris:

To power switches you either take a compatible switch drive and connect it to a external DCC controller, or you take a swtich drive that has build in DCC. The ProLine version of a switch drive also offers external triggers allowing for automated as well as DCC controlled operation.

The correct curved switch that fits your layout depends on the raqdius that the curves are in. For a large variety of switches you can also see here:
Curved switches

Phoenix is a sound board only and does not control the motor and hence doesn't offer integrated operation.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris: 
The current version of your layout looks good and manageable. Are you planing travel in both directions? 

Mohammed


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Axel, looked at price of those switches and almost had a seizure...


Mohammed, unless I put in the turnouts to create the reverse loop, no only counter-clockwise.


Will start buying track and plywood. Will need to determine how many and where to put the DiMax track controls. Do they work on both US and EU patterns?





--Chris


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris: 

Going in one direction also reduces the number of places where you need to manage possible collision. 
The track contacts are 12.5mm wide, and I know they fit EU pattern. You need to measure the distance between track ties for US pattern. 

Mohammed


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

It is a good idea to swap directions due to axles do move inside engines and cause wear on one side. 

My RR is figure 8's and engines go in both directions!!


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 05 Jan 2012 08:09 AM 
It is a good idea to swap directions due to axles do move inside engines and cause wear on one side. 

My RR is figure 8's and engines go in both directions!! I am going to have to look more into the software programs available. Looking more and more like triggered stop on main and triggered pass on siding opposite side of loop. Knowing this up front just guarantees I put in enough triggers and properly label them so all these programs can be added later. If I can get layout done in enough time will put timed stop, no stop opposite direction, in first. Reverse loop second. Then start adding additional trains.

--Chris


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

It's a really good thing I joined this forum, because without more knowledgeable people I could be causing damage although minor to some very expensive equipment.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris:

The standard ProLine R7/R5 is a production switch and is therefore more affordable. The other switches are custom switches (hand made) but have a great following becasue of theur tremndous operational qualities.


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 05 Jan 2012 10:50 AM 
Chris:

The standard ProLine R7/R5 is a production switch and is therefore more affordable. The other switches are custom switches (hand made) but have a great following becasue of theur tremndous operational qualities.

ProLine is not in the AnyRail 4 database. It will be easier for me to remove train and run it the opposite direction. Will just need to keep that in mind with the triggers for stop.

--Chris


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 05 Jan 2012 08:09 AM 
It is a good idea to swap directions due to axles do move inside engines and cause wear on one side. 

My RR is figure 8's and engines go in both directions!! 
What do you see as the most simple way to add a reverse loop?


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris: 

A long time ago, I was told by someone at LGBOA that any damage that would occur as a result of traveling in a single direction would be neglible and unlikely to be of consequence unless one constantly runs trains at full throttle. I have been running some of my trains in one direction from more than 25 years and I have yet to see any sign of damage. I inspect and lubricate all my gearboxes regularly, and I occasionally run individual trains solo in the opposite direction of travel. 

Mohammed


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Posted By mbendebba on 05 Jan 2012 02:54 PM 
Chris: 

A long time ago, I was told by someone at LGBOA that any damage that would occur as a result of traveling in a single direction would be neglible and unlikely to be of consequence unless one constantly runs trains at full throttle. I have been running some of my trains in one direction from more than 25 years and I have yet to see any sign of damage. I inspect and lubricate all my gearboxes regularly, and I occasionally run individual trains solo in the opposite direction of travel. 

Mohammed 





Whew!


Whew! I was going to start pulling my hair out withthis reverse loop...


--Chris


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris: 

I already pulled mine out when I tried to do everything at once, now I do one thing at a time, no multitasking for me. 

Mohammed


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Multitasking...? Wait till you get a load of this! I'm the complete opposite I have to know finished goal before I can start.

From my reading of Massoth CS, Navigator, and modules I have created roughly the automatic control I think I will need. Will always run counter-clockwise.









AD1 and AD2 will use the train detection module to send signal "a" to stop and "b" to release to feedback module, always on.
AR1, AR2 , T5 and T6 will use feedback modules and switch modules. On/Off with Navigator
S1-S6 will use switch modules to prevent derailments, always on.
Approximate timings on drawings will use ID and bar code to set speeds accordingly.
 This is all based on freight taking 3 minutes to make complete loop and passenger to make complete loop in 2 minutes after a 1 minute delay in station. I would like to run all wires and tuck away clean and not have to go back and re-wire later.


--Chris


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chris: 

Looks great. 

Mohammed


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

After some discussion on this board in another thread this will be the final layout. WIll be building entire thing by hand using Code 250 brass flex.


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