# No New Smoke Technology?



## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

It is late 2009, yet I can find no indication yet that anyone has re-invented affordable smoke making devices for our large scale electric powered steam locomotives. It appears the current manufacturers are content to continue selling old technology units that are almost universally considered poor and better off not used. Some folk seem to have good experiences, yet from the number of posts I read that decry poor performance, short life, or even heat damage to surrounding plastic stacks and boiler housings, it is curious why someone has not taken up the challenge and come up with a smoke unit equivalent of a Barrys Big Trains motor drive block replacement. The BBT drive is multiple times better than the Chinese-made blocks it replaces. So.... wondering why someone has not created a bullet-proof smoke unit that replaces B'mann, Aristo, LGB, or USAT units.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would say that the demand must not be high enough. When I frequented the Aristo forum, who has (when it works) a pretty good unit in terms of smoke volume, many people indicated they did not use them. 

The cost to make a good unit is not cheap, I would submit that the MTH is about the best for the money, and not a universal unit. I believe they are 60-75 bucks each, a significant cost to people who can buy a loco at $300 or so. 

Now, in a $800-$1000 MTH loco that cost is fine. The Aristo unit used to be inexpensive, but it's been creeping up in price every couple of months (like the rest of the Aristo parts prices).... 

The other units, like the Massoth are more expensive, and some do not have big enough reservoirs to be worth it for outside running in my opinon. 

Just supply and demand, these are tight times, and many large scale suppliers of "niche" products have gone out of business.... I went through my list of links for manufacturers, and many small companies are gone. 

Regards, Greg


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Certainly based on the evidence, demand must be low, as you propose. I for one would not balk at $75 for a reliable unit that makes good volume for a reasonable length of time. I have no clue how many others may feel the same. Currently that means a larger reservoir, hence the MTH unit. What I was lamenting was the lack of any new technology/chemistry to produce model train "smoke" using a different method that might preclude the larger size and potentially damaging heat and associated high current draw.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

I doubt that any technology exists that can produce large volumes of smoke on demand without excessive heat.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Al,

A factor to consider in developing a better smoke unit using 'new' technology would fall almost squarely on chemistry. That automatically entails health considerations: for any new 'big smoke pill' (ala my old Lionel) you'd be forced to prove that there was no health hazard for ten generations down from whomever breathed it.

The 'hazard-free life' nuts have done a great job of stifling new inventions. 

Let me go 'way out there for an example: how many remember the old Christmas bubble lights? They contained methyl chlorate (???)-- a low-volatility chemical with pretty colors that bubbled happily w/o generating vapor pressure. Then someone decided that if you drank it, it might kill you. I'm unclear of the technical details, but I do know there ain't no mo pretty bubble lights, no mo.

That was the first word my daughter learned. She sorta got it, anyway: "Booboolight!" And with that, like any kid who realizes sounds mean something, she was off and talking. Still hasn't shut up, and she's 35.









Les


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmm... I was told they contained alcohol, but I never investigated to see. Googled it, and you are right, although early ones had some kind of oil. The ones I have were from my grandmother from the depression era, and they were indeed made by Noma. Wikipedia has this information. 

Well, you can either burn something, which would make real smoke, or vaporize a fluid. These use heat to vaporize a light oil. You could try ultrasonic ones, like you see in fountains or other "smoke"/"fog" machines, but then the "Smoke" seems to be heavier than air, and it falls down, not up. 

To get black smoke, I think you have to generate carbon, and that almost always means actual combustion or burning of something. 

Maybe someone will work on this, but I think it will take much better financial times for someone to have the R&D money to develop one. 

When it happens, I will surely buy one. 

Regards, Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

It can be found, if one wants to spend the money, and like German locomotives.









Another thought is some of the R/C tanks have some amazing smoke systems now. Some of the units can be bought.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Greg wrote: "To get black smoke, I think you have to generate carbon, and that almost always means actual combustion or burning of something."

Well, that's a point: Lionel smoke was puffy white.

Howsumever, I'm impressed all to heck by the new compounds out there. I suspect--or am ready to believe--that some chemist could come up with any color smoke desired (within reason) should the incentive be there. How toxic it would be, I cannot say. But I bet getting it past the health nazis would be a real trick.

I got a piece of shuttle tile to make a holding fixture for test purposes. Those, at least the sample I had, was amazingly light. So I got out the cutting torch and gloves, and heated that sucker a dull red, as hot as I could get it with oxy-acetylene. I poked it around, picked it up with the gloves and held it near my lips--a good set of temp sensor, btw, and felt the heat radiating. I turned it over and felt nothing, and it was only perhaps 1-1/2" thick. So I took the gloves off and reheated the block. It was about palm-sized. Dull red on one side. Wet my bare fingers, etc, and touched the backside. Slightly above room temperature, yet an inch and a half away, it was red hot.

So I heated it again and scooped it up in my hand. Hard to tell it was warm, even. I have ever since been impressed by whomever came up with that.

And that's why I think colored smoke can be had, if the market is there, as several have already mentioned. Probably even multi-colored.

As an aside, Cap Bill was wanting flowing water into his tender, and I was wondering how well hydrogen peroxide would work. The delivery system to the spout would be troublesome, but I bet it'd look real.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Garrett,

That is an impressive vid. Tell me, when the hogger 'blows it down' does the steam go up through the stack, or where? 'Bout have to be the stack, but there's always this big cloud of steam around the cylinders in the movies.

Les


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Les, 

Most OTC Hydrogen Peroxide is a 3% solution .... meaning 97% water.... is the 3% enough to make a difference? 

Others.... 

Most smoke makers that I know of work in one of a few ways: 

1.) The smoker actually burns something ... oil, rubber, whatever. Usually for enormous volumes of smoke, and everything that goes with it.... definately not for indoor use, and requires some kind of burner or heat source that requires, well, fuel, and is also probably above the threshold for plastic models. 

2.) The smoker uses some kind of oil (everything from mineral oil to citronella, etc.) and vaporizes it with a heating element. This is what most model train smokers are, and with the addition of a pressure system and fan, how the stage smokers work (and why they only work in bursts.... it has to build up smoke before it fires off a blast from the stage.) There are still questions about toxicity and flammability .... and oil vapor/residue, and folks with respiratory problems occasionally have issues. 

3.) soild carbon dioxide (dry ice) .... as the solid sublimates, it tends to make a visible water vapor, partiularly if warm water is used to accelerate the sublimation. Unfortunately it all happens pretty quickly, especially in the tiny volumes you would have in the smokebox of most models. You might be able to work out something with a tank car.... there's also the option of controlled release from a pressurized vessel (think, CO2 fire extinguisher) ... but again, they run out quickly and are expensive to refill. 

Somewhere between the power consumption, the messy fluids, the damage and health concerns for some from the "smoke" itself and the problem keeping evertything supplied and in balance long enough for a run, and small enough to fit onboard a train, most people tend to give up. 

Then there are those live steamers who run their engines on coal ..... who really kind of have the problem licked, and get to power the train at the same time. Sadly, for most "sparkies" like me, that's nearly a whole 'nother hobby (one we envy!) and not particularly conducive to indoor running.... 

Kind of a "pick your poison" thing. 

Matthew (OV)


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

What was it ToC suggested to one guy for decent smoke? Something like - Take a $5 cigar, smoke half, and then stuff it soggy end first down the stack? (Maybe Cherry Blend? Be a kinda nice aroma) 

I liked the old American Flyer toxic stuff, smelled kinda like Frankincense. The stuff most people put in MTH units makes me gag. 

Those huge black billows that so many photographers and railfans are so fond of is actually a sign of a very poor fireman. Lots of smoke = incomplete combustion = fuel (and therefore money) wasted. There should be a light greyish haze at the stack of a properly fired engine, that's it. The rest should be white condensate from the exhaust steam.


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh ... and "blowing down" the boiler involves a pipe about 3" in diameter near the bottom of the boiler (the "mud ring") where the scale and sediment collects.... this pipe has a gate valve on it, and when someone pulls the handle, all of the water on the other side of the valve, at the base of the boiler, and about 380 degrees Farenheit, flashes to steam. The visual effect resembles a fire hose of very saturated steam, and if you look closely (or afterwards) red mud. It's used either to lower the level of water in the boiler quickly if there's a problem, or at calculated intervals to help maintain boiler chemistry (which in "modern" steam locomotive maintenance is something of a black art in itself)... and at some locations like the D&SNG, it's done for visual effect as well. Here you can see one of the Durango and Silverton locomotives doing short blowdowns on the bridge (the passenger referring to this as the "safety valve" is wrong... as you know, the safety valve is at the top of the boiler, and is designed to automatically relieve steam in the event the pressure rises above a predetermined point....)


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Slatecreek,

Okay, thanks. Now I know more. From the vid, it looks like it blew sideways, which I sincerely doubt would happen at a station platform. Thus, why the sudden blast when the engine stops? Movie effects?

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

SlateCreek wrote: "Most OTC Hydrogen Peroxide is a 3% solution .... meaning 97% water.... is the 3% enough to make a difference?"

I dunno, is the short answer. I know it's bubbly when I pour it on a wound. And it's cheap, thus worth a try. As I said, the delivery system would be the tricky part, because the H202 would bubble fiercely at the first non-glass thing it touched, I suspect. A pipette inside the spout, with a small bar across it might generate enough 'fuzz' as it went into the tender ... or a crossbar at the tender filler, but you want the high-volume look before that, so the tank spout would have to be it.

It'd be simple enough to test, I suspect.

Ever taste that stuff? Ick.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Mik wrote: "I liked the old American Flyer toxic stuff, smelled kinda like Frankincense. The stuff most people put in MTH units makes me gag."

You should sniff the output of a coupla those Echo steam engines I picked up on eBay. Smells like burning dirty laundry.

Vulp


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Two different things. The boiler blowdown typically requires that the engine be removed from the immediate area of bystanders, cars, basically stuff you want to keep .... typically trees up to an inch or two get blown around like they're in a hurricane even 50' from the engine .... and it's not something you see done all the time, certainly not every time the engine stops.
What you're probalby seeing in the movies is the cylinder cocks. These allow water that condenses in the cylinders to be blown out of valves at each end of the cylinder. I've worked with two types, but I suspect there are several.... on one locomotive, the cylinder cocks exhausted somewhat downward, and sideways... on the other it looked more like a fire sprinkler and was blown downward and out in a radius.

Here is Valley Railroad #40, equipped with the sideways exhausting version, using the cylinder cocks at speed. 



Here it is slowed down a bit .... after the first few, you'll have to hear it rather than see it, as the cloud pretty much obscures everything.... but listen for the "whooosh.....whooosh" as the piston moves forward and backwards....



When preparing to move the engine off the pit, an engineman will often set the brakes on the engine, open the cylinder cocks, and crack the throttle .... this will blow steam through the cylinders, and heat them up, and blow out any condensed water in there .... you'll first see liquid water shooting out the exhaust, followed by wet steam and sputtering, followed by just steam. Then the reverser is thrown over (occasionally you have to move the engine a foot or two) and the other two valves are blown out. This keeps water from getting between the piston and the cylinder head, which, since water doesn't compress, can cause serious damage (like a bent main rod, for example!) As the engine is used, the engineman will occasionally have to use them intermittently, typically when starting up from a stop to clear any condensate that might accumulate. 

When stopping, if everything is "tight" on the engine, sealwise, when the engine comes to a stop without coasting first (for example, when coupling cars, on a grade, or making a "stretched" stop with the brakes) there will be steam left in the cylinders after the engine stops. This is akin to having the idle on your car high enough that lifting your foot from the brake will cause it to move forward under the power transmitted through the automatic transmission by the idling engine. If the engineman then opens the cylinder cocks, this residual steam is exhausted, meaning the engine won't be trying to crawl against the brakes. In fact, to allow a man between cars to make up brake hoses, barcos, etc, the brake is set, the reverser centered, and the cylinder cocks opened before the "all clear" is given to go in between. (youe mileage may vary on other railroads.)
The point is, the dramatics PSSSSSSSssssssssss s s s s s s s that you hear on a steam engine after it stops is typically this residual steam being vented. On engines equipped with snifter valves, once this pressure drops, the valves can then drop open (loud clanking sound) and you'll see wisps of steam from the top of the cylinders as well. (The snifter valves are what makes for the loud slamming sound when the throttle is first open too... as the steam enters the valves, the pressure blows the valve shut.) I wanted to find a youtube clip of this, but nobody seems to be filming the correct end of the engine when it typically happens, being enthralled with the coupling process at the other end.... ah well.

Hollywood tends to look for the dramatic with all of these things. I saw "Man of the West" the other night where the engine opens the cylinder cocks approaching the platform, so that the whole way through the station, there's gouts of steam everywhere .... not typically allowed by rule. But then, a lot of the movie stuff is for its showy, dramatic value... 

Ok. Enough show and tell for one day. I'm sure a bunch of folks will now jump on me claiming that's not how you do it... but it's how we did it.

Matthew (OV)


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 18 Sep 2009 09:48 PM 
SlateCreek wrote: "Most OTC Hydrogen Peroxide is a 3% solution .... meaning 97% water.... is the 3% enough to make a difference?"

I dunno, is the short answer. I know it's bubbly when I pour it on a wound. And it's cheap, thus worth a try. As I said, the delivery system would be the tricky part, because the H202 would bubble fiercely at the first non-glass thing it touched, I suspect. A pipette inside the spout, with a small bar across it might generate enough 'fuzz' as it went into the tender ... or a crossbar at the tender filler, but you want the high-volume look before that, so the tank spout would have to be it.

It'd be simple enough to test, I suspect.

Ever taste that stuff? Ick.

Les 




LOL ... no... I try not to drink anything found in the first aid kit.... though I know some medics who made due wth sterile water on a long standby once.

If you want it to fizz, put a piece of potato in the water tower. It has catalase, an enzyme that speeds up the naturan decomposition of H2O2 into H20 + 02. Normally the stuff will break down over time... this just speeds it up ... and putting it on a cut makes it fizz because your body (and notably your blood) has catalase in it too, but I doubt you want any blood in your tender or your water tower! You could put a chain or a string on the bottom of the "roof" of the tower wtih a nail or something to impale the potato chunk on .... note that you should cut the potato so the white part is exposed to the H2O2.

You might have better luck with a "wetting agent" ... a surfactant... that breaks down the water's surface tension. It's the same reason we put a few drops of dish detergent in the water/glue mix we use to hold indoor layout scenery foam down ... the water won't "bead up" quite so largely, and tends to spread, which in the case of the glue spray bottle, is what you're trying to do. 

If the potato doesn't appeal to you, perhaps a bottle of selztzer with a few drops of dish detergent .... though you probably don't want to drink the water afterwards. Maybe straight up water, and a few airstones from a fish tank aerator system? (You could run the air hose up the water tank fill pipe...) 

My temptation would be to rig the tower with a "tender filingl" sound sample and if I *had* to have a functioning water tower I'd fill it with somthing useful for live steam engines like distilled water .... or perhaps something appealing to train operators (rule G notwithstanding!)

All very interesting...

Matthew (OV)


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Les:

You might also be hearing the internal blower being opened to keep a draft on the fire. This would not produce a sudden whoosh sound, but rather a continuous soft roar that begins shortly after stopping if it is to be stopped for very long. There is also the possibility you are hearing the air brakes being recharged from the steam powered air compressors (usually on the Fireman's side or mounted on the smokebox front). If you see any of the videos of the Boone and Scenic Valley Ry you will note a loud sudden blast periodically with a vent of steam at an odd upward angle near the stack. I believe that is exhaust from the air compressors making one stroke to recharge the tanks.

If you want to see an engineer working hard with the cylinder cocks watch this video of the Midwest Central RR ("Three Locos Attack the Hill") The last engine, number 16, a 0-4-0 Heisler, on the hill. The cylinder cocks are open and there are a copious amounts of steam from them as it fails to make it up the hill. I am not sure why the cocks are open; I assume it may have had a too full boiler and had some water carry over into the cylinders and the Engineer was venting that water, but with the cocks open a lot of power is lost out of the cylinders that should be pushing the pistons.

Some other fun things to note in the video is to pay attention to the whistle signals. Two blasts mean he will be going forward, but note that the engine lacks the power to do so and rolls backward down the hill instead. If you know where to look you can see that the valve gear is in full forward at the time... look just in back of the cylinders and you will see the radius rod (from the link to the valve connection, painted red) form a bit of a shallow "V" indicating that it is positioned in the bottom of the link (which on this engine means it is in forward gear). Later in the video there are 3 blasts which mean it intends to back up and then the valve radius rod forms a shallow upside-down "V" and the engine then backs out of the scene. At that point it sounds the grade crossing signal (two longs, a short and a long) and I think the sound of that whistle is so much like the engine is complaining and terribly embarrassed!





Here is another video ("A Chinese Couple in a German American Colony") of an engine with the cylinder cocks open on startup (actually the lead engine's engineer was putting on a grand show for the railfans in attendance!)

This video is of the 2 Chinese engines that were imported by the parent company of the Iowa Interstate RR. This was their inaugural run from Quad Cities to Iowa City (Iowa) where they went just past Iowa City to turn the whole train at the Wye with the CRANDIC RR near Amana Iowa. Both of these engines had broken automatic stokers and so the Firemen had to hand stoke the boilers with coal (they did so well that the safeties blew on both engines most of the time).

Note the small tree to the left of the track as the lead engine comes up off the Wye. It gets quite a steam cleaning from a blow down at that point.

Also notice the idiot that gets his socks steam cleaned (the cylinder cocks were open) while he runs from the track carrying a kid!

I had my radio scanner locked on the trains frequency held near the camera so you hear the chatter between the crew on the audio. 

The whistle valves on the engines were almost a digital control, no "wooOOOoo wooOOOooo" modulation.

The great show put on by the lead engine was done by over stokeing the fire to produce lots of black smoke. The throttle was also open all the way with the cylinder cocks also open dumping most of the power out so the engine ran slower. I love the "Zebra Striping" that this all produced from the stack. Toward the end the internal blower was also opened which produced the very heavy continuous blast from the stack.





I have tried to duplicate this with my Aster engines and on a very cool day with very high humidity I can get some pretty good puffs of plain white steam from the stack, but alas, I haven't figured out a way to produce black smoke from the alcohol fire.


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

I give up.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 19 Sep 2009 12:11 AM 
Les:

If you want to see an engineer working hard with the cylinder cocks watch this video of the Midwest Central RR ("Three Locos Attack the Hill")  The last engine, number 16, a 0-4-0 Heisler, on the hill. The cylinder cocks are open and there are a copious amounts of steam from them as it fails to make it up the hill. I am not sure why the cocks are open; I assume it may have had a too full boiler and had some water carry over into the cylinders and the Engineer was venting that water, but with the cocks open a lot of power is lost out of the cylinders that should be pushing the pistons.


The _Henschel _is not a superheated loco, so yes, the cocks are open for the reason you point out.

Anyone else know the story behind how Lionel verrified that the old "Smoke Pellets" were "non toxic"? The late Frank Pettit and one or two others from the R&D side reportedly "popped" a couple!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Matthew,

You've got it exactly. That's what I was talking about. So, the steam is coming from the cylinder cocks, and 'blowing down' a boiler is a completely different thing.

Well, thank you sir. I learned two more facts. Thanks for troubling to post the vids, they were fun to look at.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Matthew,

I wasn't drinking the peroxide. I had a sore on the end of my tongue that was driving me nuts, so I spied the peroxide whilst going through my meager stock of home remedies and thought "Ah-ha!" I stuck the end of my tongue in the bottle. I only did it once. This wonderfully-designed mechanism we call a body has all sorts of alarms regarding harmful materials in the mouth.
_

_ 
So I got the *other* med out, a bottle of merthiolate. I don't think they sell it anymore. I dabbed on a bit and sat down and wept. After I got over that episode, I went back to my most trusted remedy, Old Crow. (I don't think they sell it anymore, either. You could pour that on nearly anything, and it'd help.) Stuck my tongue in there, and at least the tears were manly. I was single. After I got married, one day I noticed my tried-n-true medicine chest (an air force tool bag) was empty and lots of ointments and whatnot were in the medicine cabinet.

Now, back to water towers. It never crossed my mind to have a sound system for a water tower, but unless they're expensive (don't think they are) I'm definitely going to go for several.

Les


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

How'd we get from smoke units to sound in water towers??


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Les mentioned blowing down, Slate Creek explained it, and Les went on to water towers. 











Well, we finished with all the available smoke information I guess.


Greg


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Semper,

Thanks for those vids! I enjoyed everything but the tin whistle. So those are Chinese engines, huh. My, my.

Saw the guy get his socks steamed. Why, oh why, are people so unconscious?

Les


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Les, 

For example: http://www.quisenberrystation.com/ITT/Examp.htm 

There's a water fill in the top group. Has a turbogenerator running in the background... but altogether not bad. 

Al, 

Sorry about your smoke thread. Couldn't think of anything else on it... and got answering other questions. 

M(OV)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And to be clear, I was not complaining.... 

I agree the information on new technology had run it's course. 

Just clarifying. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Smokum if you gottum BOYS........MTH SMOKERS RULE


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Why fix something thats not broke ????? Silly Boys...... HAAAAAAAAAAAAA


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS my bad..........











]


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I can get cha black smoke.... but you'll need a fan to disperse the 'cinders'... 

Light a snake pellet, drop it down the stack and then add the fan on top with a cutter blade to chop the snake up! 

Smoke and cinders too! 

No charge.....


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

What is needed is NOT new smoke. Smoke stinks, it blows away unrealistically in the un-scale breezes, it's the wrong color, and the wrong texture. What is really needed is a 3 dimensional illusion of smoke and billowing steam. In short a moving hologram. Now that I've supplied the basic idea, you electronic wizards can make it work, make it fit, and make it affordable.... then you can mail me a royalty check, too. hehehe


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 19 Sep 2009 09:28 PM 
What is needed is NOT new smoke. Smoke stinks, it blows away unrealistically in the un-scale breezes, it's the wrong color, and the wrong texture. What is really needed is a 3 dimensional illusion of smoke and billowing steam. In short a moving hologram. Now that I've supplied the basic idea, you electronic wizards can make it work, make it fit, and make it affordable.... then you can mail me a royalty check, too. hehehe  
Well... if someone can do that...

We could also eliminate the problms with track power AND battery power (as well as wind up and live steam)... Just make the whole engine a hologram. 
But why stop there? Make the whole the train a hologram, as well as the the track, the scenery... and... well... how about the modeler, too, and just be done with it.

No more debate as to scale and gauge... make 'em any size you want.
No more coupler compatibility problems.
Grades? Holograms won' be affected by grades!
No more having to order new wheels to go with the different trucks to fit the car bodies of differning manufacturers... just download one hologram and duplicate it however many times you want to make the consist as long as you want.

Weathering would be a Photoshop problem, instead of wondering what paints are compatible with which plastics.
No more whole consists of cars with the same reporting marks!
Now you can animate the figures on the pike so the engineer actually moves instead of being permanently posed with his hand not quite on the throttle or his arm not resting on the window sill. The fireman can be seen shoveling coal and the supply of coal will actually drop in the tender!
The hologrraphic passengers in the diner could actually be seen eating holographic food.

For that matter, just project it in one place and then you won't need a large land area to have a huge layout. You can sit still while the scenery passes behind the train. Project the train around you and take a holographic ride!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I can see that smoke fumes can cause hallucinations.... ha ha! 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ya I think the kid has gone over board with the smoke. I can do the same with my TA system.







. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Later RJD


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)




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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Al,

Heh, heh.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Oops.... sorry... We take no prisoners!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Good one I like that. Later RJD


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 20 Sep 2009 05:24 PM 
Ya I think the kid has gone over board with the smoke. I can do the same with my TA system.







. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Later RJD 








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