# What material for back of faux mountains



## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I need a way to build up to a 3' tall mountain range that is along a fence. I haven't decided if it will be natural rock and dirt or faux rock but I'm highly leaning towards using hardware cloth and mortar or hypertufa for the mountain front as the mountain will need to be up to 2x tall as wide so going natural will be difficult or impossible. Here's an ASCII art side view diagram of what I'm looking to do.

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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

If you don't need strength and are only looking for a "back plate" to keep stuff out, Styrofoam sheeting is lightweight and easy to work with and should work fine as it doesn't appear that it will be exposed to direct sunlight. Paint it with a water-based paint and it will probably out live all of us.


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Brandon

Another material you might look at is exterior grade Hardie-Board. I used it as siding on my power station and it is standing up to the weather here in Southern AZ well. No color fading that I can see and it's in direct sun all day. A lot heavier than the tile backer you were looking at. Not as easy to work with as John's suggestion of Styrofoam though.

Alan


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Material strength is important. Basically the mountain is made of just a "back plate" and a hardware cloth face and they need to support a fair bit of mortar, probably 30-70lbs per linear foot as mortar is not light weight.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon

In addition to whatever metal covering (e.g. hardware cloth) you have you are also going to fabricate some type of spindly skeletal framework to attach the metal to. Although maybe hardware cloth may not be the best choice you might look into expanded metal diamond mesh lath[/b] that they use to apply stucco to instead.

The following two PDF's are of topics that Dennis Rayon (MLS - denray) has posted on the methods he uses to construct his outdoor cement hardshell coverings on his Rabbit Mountain Railroad. The first PDF is mostly on his construction methods using cement, while the second is more about building the Water Mill, however, on the last page you can see the skeletal structure that the diamond mesh lath is attached to, which in turn the cement is keyed to.

Dennis Rayon - Mountains, Bridges, and Trestles (PDF 1.73MB)[/b]

Dennis Rayon - Water Mill II (PDF 1.78MB)[/b]

You haven't mentioned if along your mountain wall if there are going to be any tunnels that the trains will be going through. If there are indeed to be tunnels, then take into account that effectively whatever part of the train is inside the tunnel is also inside the mountain structure. So provisions must be made to prevent any de-railments inside the tunnel of possibly allowing any of the rolling stock falling off the track into what is in effect inaccessible areas inside the mountain.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I've read Dennis' article a half dozen times, it's a great resource. Unfortunately he doesn't cover a "back plate" method which is the last part of my puzzle. I've tested the hardware cloth method and I've really liked the results and I debated the diamond but maybe I should reconsider it. The diamond mesh lath seemed like it would be far harder to cut, bend and shape into mountains than the hardware cloth. 

There will be tunnels in the mountain but non longer than 4'-5' so I can easily reach in from either side to access a potential derailed train. I have not decided if I'll use a large diameter pipe or just have the entire inside of the mountains open. It will probably depend on the strength needed. 

My build thread is here: To-Be Named Railroad and it has some photos of the fence area that should shed some light on my situation.


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## benshell (Oct 1, 2008)

Brandon, 

I've experimented with quite a few techniques, and what I like the best is foam, exterior hardie board, stucco mesh and stucco. 

I like cutting and breaking the foam into small chunks and using it basically as filer. Stucco doesn't stick to it very well, so for sheer cliffs or overhangs that's where I've used stucco mesh. It's very sharp so wear gloves and be careful, but stucco will stick to it even upside down. Stucco just falls right through hardware cloth. Also the stucco mesh is very easy to bend into any shape. 

As a base I've used cement blocks, and one of my mountains backs up to a pressure treated retaining wall and fence boards so I used them as backers, but the strength of the backers doesn't really matter. If they rotted away today the mountain is strong enough to hold up on its own. A few layers of stucco is surprisingly strong! 

Here are some pictures: 

Here's my first mountain under construction and I'm not happy with the results so far (haven't figured out what I wrote above): 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/benjaminshell/6860110269/ 

Here's a current picture, much improved, though still not finished (needs more paint and a few refinements), but I got to the point that I could get the stucco into any shape I could imagine using stucco mesh and blocks of foam. And I still need to cut a hole for the upper tunnel to exit: 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/benjaminshell/7763485012/in/set-72157631026606636 

Here's another mountain, not painted at all yet. Also, the rock in the middle of the waterfall is the very last part of the mountains I worked on, so it's much better than the rest! I'd like to go back and add detail to the rest of the mountain sometime. What's great about faux rock is you can just keep working on it. Stucco sticks great to stucco! 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/benjaminshell/7763471042/in/set-72157631026606636


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Just get some cheap cedar fence boards. Put cement blocks under them to keep them out of standing water. Run a 2x2 along the bottom 2 (2") screws per board from the backside. Other horizontals added where you need track support help. 
Line your tunnels, helps keep the beasties out and your trains up. People will always look inside..... 

Aside to Ben; Real nice looking railroad. 

John


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Brandon on 08 Jun 2013 08:19 AM 
{snip...}[/i] There will be tunnels in the mountain but non longer than 4'-5' so I can easily reach in from either side to access a potential derailed train. I have not decided if I'll use a large diameter pipe or just have the entire inside of the mountains open. It will probably depend on the strength needed. {snip...}[/i]
Brandon

In the PDF *Mountains, Bridges, and Trestles*, if you look on page three, second picture down (on the left), you can see the fabricated sheet metal C-channel that the track lays in. If the tall vertical sides were not there and there was a derailment inside the tunnel, there would be nothing preventing any of the rolling stock from falling off the track to the dirt far below where it would very difficult to retrieve. Unless you had an access door somewhere where you could gain access to the inside of the mountain, that's what I was talking about.









Regarding the back wall of the mountain, is the fence yours or your neighbor's?
[*] If the fence belongs to your neighbor, then I understand why you wish not to attach the scenery to it.

[*] On the other hand, if the fence belongs to you.
[*] Have you considered attaching a horizontal cleat/ledger to the fence for the required length needed, where you can attach the top of the metal lath (hardware cloth) to.

If the reluctance to attach directly to the fence is because of possible defacing it with the cement stains. You could always space the horizontal cleat/ledger away from the fence using short blocks spaced accordingly along the length of the cleat/ledger.

If you are concerned that the scenery is going to be pushing against the fence and making it bow. I don't think that will be a problem because of the skeletal framework you'll have to construct to support the scenery as it is being created. And while you're creating the framework you can fashion the bracing to prevent that from happening.
[/list][/list]


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx


You might want to look at my threads. This is page 1. The mountain building begins on page 4. The part that most answers your question is on page 8.
JimC.


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon -- 

You are way over thinking the problem. I have built a lot of cement mountains, and they need remarkably little support. If you look at page 3 of Dennis' Mountains, Bridges and Tunnels, near the bottom there is a photo of how he builds mountains. The secret is that that is all you need for any cement structure. You don't need any backer boards at all. I used 1X2s for my last mountains. Just whack them together into something approximating the shape you want, stretch whatever wire you are using between them, and go nuts. I find poultry netting gives shapelier mountains with less work than hardware cloth. Dennis uses the lath used under stucco, which is even harder to work with, but to each his own.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm on clay and silt. Movement in the ground is completely unavoidable and although we don't have sinkholes, the geotech reports for the area showed minor holing (air pockets 2"-6" in diameter) in the ground between 5' and 30' down. I had the ground on one side of the home drop 3' in the first year that took 4 dump trucks to fill, but I think that was more due to the fact that they backfilled the foundation during winter with frozen dirt chunks of clay/silt that were dug out from the foundation and come spring it thawed and compacted. Anyway, I have sections of the ground that drop 1"-3" every year and it's random so I'll need a little over thinking just to make sure I don't have too many problems. Breaking the mountains up into sections and potentially being able to level or shim could potentially be needed to keep the mountain and track at the proper elevation or slope. 

I went through the depot and looked at hardie board, hardie backer, and other options and started to wonder that if a few friends who run live steam came over, if a shell mountain made of various material could hold that much weight. I know, over thinking. I'm sure it will turn out fine whatever I do though, or I can fix it when stuff happens. Perfectionalism is a bad disease. :-/ I'm now wondering if bringing in some crushed 2" rock for a base and building the mountains with cinderblocks so the base is more solid than just a shell mountain. This would potentially mean less faux mountains (maybe 20% faux just to have stuff in certain areas, where the slope is too great, instead of a 40' long faux mountain) which would allow more plants and make adjusting track if things did settle easier. I'd be using the faux rock as accent instead of the main and practically only visual surface detail.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Brandon
You are over complicating what you are wanting, I prefer the stucco mesh because it is smaller holes, holding cement better. As far as shaping this
is where people REALLY overthink, a good pair of leather gloves is recomended, I bend, roll ,fold over, hit it with a hammer to create what I want.
Then screw to the boards i have placed, overlapping joints, does not matter, it all gets covered.
I would suggest do a small area first, get your hands dirty, and either see how easy it is ,or, the need to plan something else.
I agree with Steve on the wall area, I either use stair ballasters 1.5 x 1.5 inches or rip 2x4 in half, (TREATED LUMBER)Drive in the ground 4-8" deep. You could lay a 2x4 flat on the ground and build off of that.
You mite utilize the building metal strips for help on the joints, I do my cutting with a saber/jig saw
I use 1.25 screws with 7/8" diameter fender washers to secure to the lath to the wood.
Your idea of blocks and gravel adds much more weight and more work than the above method.
Yes my method is hollow, I have rabbits living in mine with no troubles, if critters are a problem, make a wooden door and build your tunnelopening around it, pulling it out to prevent sticking. Or make two identicle doors one for a sacrificial form, so after cement drys, it can be

destroyed in the removal.
If you want to call me and talk on the phone feel welcome four,one,seven,eight,four,nine,zero,five,eight,eight 

Dennis


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon -- 

"I'm on clay and silt. Movement in the ground is completely unavoidable and " 

Sorry, I didn't realize what you are up against.... Have you considered a desert layout? All DG and sidewinders... 

Perhaps a real frame would be a good idea. I've got a feeling you're going to be exploring uncharted territory....


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm not sure what theme Denray's mountains were based on but that's what I am looking to do, for me my inspiration is Bryce canyon and Rainbow valley which are primarily desert and should make the process easier. Considering I have 3 tracks in such a small width (24"-36"), the center of which is sloped and goes from 0"-11" lower, the Bryce canyon look would make it easy to have near vertical mountain edges and still look realistic to get 3 tracks in a small width. The question of ballasting also is a little questionable for me and I'm not sure it can be done (or what I'd do instead) when some mountain ledges/ramps for track are only 6" wide for long stretches. I have not been able to find any prototypical images of railroad ties being places directly on solid rock. My current though was to make channels in the faux mountains ledges/ramps to hold ballast. I was going to put some foam or other material on the sides and top of my PVC pipe to make sure cement didn't go where it shouldn't. Denray it looks like you did both channels and ladder when you went through the mountains. My problem with doing these channels is width is already a limited resource unlike Denray, my track is the majority instead of minority of square footage that will occupy the mountain. If I get a curve or clearance slightly wrong or need to make adjustments it would be hard when the cement was dried. Pjmanjc, your mountains are a lot like what I was looking to do as well for channels and so on. Maybe my PVC spline is the problem and I need a real ladder system I also don't have the width to do the mountains exactly as pjmanjc did. One other quirk is I have sprinkler pipes and a 4" plastic corrugated drain pipe from the rain gutters that run the entire length under where my mountain will go which made it hard to place some vertical pvc pipes where I wanted for the best support. 

I'm not familiar with the term sidewinders, but I believe DG = decomposed granite? I have 4" of DG + road base under all the track in the layout except under this mountain area which is 1"-2" because I was running low and knew I would be building mountains on top. 

I really like the timber structure idea, denray your mountains are exactly what I'm looking for, but it looks like you didn't use it much for track support and that's my 80% of my use, If you don't mind I would like to get your thoughts about that and I'll give you a call later today about 4PM MST if that works for you. 

The cinderblock structure idea would let me get the railroad fully running, clearances and all tested and tweaked, then I could go back and install hardware cloth (the type I have right now is 1/4" hole) or the diamond sheets and shape the mountain or just directly apply mortar, concrete or stucco to the blocks, depending on which method would produce the least problems down the road. I am worried that building a shell over cinderblock would break the shell if cinderblocks moved. I would of course mortar or glue all the cinderblocks together to reduce the chance to crack. 

In my neighborhood we have lots of mouser cats, field mice, snakes and black widows (black widows already love that side of the house...) Solid mountains filled with rock, gravel or dirt would likely be better to keep these creatures out. 

So I guess the question is which structure method would be best. Frost level where I'm at is about 40" down... As a note, my 32' long train shed is build on cinderblocks which are placed on top of a 1' deep base of 2" crushed rock and the cinder blocks are placed every couple of feet so that I can shim and adjust it as the ground moves. So far this has been working quite well to keep it perfectly level.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Here are some photos showing the width. As you can see it's very tight. I think if I had more width any method would produce pretty good results but being so tight it's causing me to second guess and spend a lot more time thinking and engineering this than is typical. Add in the ground issues and the complexity is causing me to expand my knowledge to try to make this work and look good at the same time.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Hey Brandon, good morning!! 

Jump in and ''get wet''! Yes - indeed get going man!!!! :- } 

Your almost there with what you got on the ground now.... 

....start at your low end and start working your way towards the higher stuff, really your gunn'a be OK here... you'll learn on the lower levels, kept adding on...we never get to know all the answers in life, but work with what you do know!! while your working this out some of your problems will surface and answer themselves!!...wish we were closer, a mud party would be a blast!!!! 

WE are all right there with you man!!! 

a thought here - ya could wrap your screen in round long shapes - around a shovel handle and cover that with your cement/stucco mix; hence, re-inforced concrete pillars for the needed rear supports, build whatever is needed as you go..... 

the shell will be stronger than you think... 

OK - we're waiting to see your work now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

do a 4-6 foot long section and get back here with the results... 

Most of all - HAVE FUUUUNNNN!!!!!! 

Dirk... back to my pipe line work - even some cement work in store for me today!!!! ya!!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Brandon. 
A word of caution on the fence side. Do your track first and make sure it is bullet proof, ie; nothing derails and the grades are smooth. 
As close as your sight lines are, you'll need big engines and long cars on the tracks to see the clearances needed. As you are finding out real estate shrinks fast. 
Another thought while claiming tunnels are only so long, consider the contortions necessary to get your arm all the way in. Saving face can make a big difference! 

Have fun and get messy. 

John


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## Jonnychuffchuff (Dec 24, 2010)

I'd be making that tunnel in small liftable sections for sure. Foam is remarkable durable and uv resistant if painted with a water base paint as Todd suggests at the top of this thread. The guys who have added that you probably don't even need much of a back are right as well. Foam would allow you to darken the back of the tunnels though, and will lend all the back support you'd ever need. I'd be thinking 2" foam - the solid stuff, not the beaded. 
You absolutely must make your tunnels completely reachable, that's for sure! 
Cheers! 
-John Le Forestier, Toronto 
Join the worldwide 100th Birthday John Allen Memorial (JAM) Breakfast on July 2 2013! It's a traditional railroader's breakfast of flapjacks and jam from strawberries, the big crop 'round Monterey where John lived, with tea or coffee. Substitutes are ok of course. Enjoy your breakfast at home or form a group. Mark your calendar today. Take a little time on this special day to remember John, model railroading's Wizard of Monterey, creator of the astonishing Gorre and Daphetid Railroad, and take another look at some of the fabulous photographs and innovations he introduced to our great hobby. Help spread the word, not just the jam! It's easy. Tell your club, your online forums and groups about it. This initiative has been undertaken by a small group of volunteers - model railroaders. We depend completely on you to get the word out wherever you can at home and abroad, ASAP. Join us for the month of June. Paste this entire postscript into your email signature. Get the official poster, more info and downloadable files here: http://tinyurl.com/md57tum


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So Brandon, what is ''THE Longeesst'' car you wish to run on your Red Mountain RR....? 

Having one will help with track vs. scenery clearances!! 

Dirk


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## benshell (Oct 1, 2008)

Thanks for posting the pictures Brandon! What you're doing is similar to my next faux rock project, which will be probably even more narrow in a couple spots. I like building the roadbed on cement blocks first (I use bond beam blocks, locked together with concrete). But, for your situation with the ground moving I see no reason why you can't just freeform it with stucco on mesh. I'd build it with several coats, both for strength and the opportunity to refine. 

Since we're using industrial strength materials for basic needs we can get away without doing everything exactly "right". It may crack, but you can patch it up, or let it weather naturally. It will still be surprisingly strong. Also, anything you can build you can also unbuild! An angle grinder with a diamond blade is a great tool for making changes; anything from fixing minor equipment clearance issues, to cutting out a section of roadbed! I know, it's a waste of money and time, but you can always use any broken concrete in your mountain work.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Dirk, good to hear from you! I've been watching your build thread a little over the winter and you've made some amazing progress! 

For the car length, I have a friend with a K-27 and K-28 live steam so I'm keeping 10" high and 7" wide clearances for the railroad. There are also some club members with big boys but one radius is 9'4" so those might not work. Other than that an auto carrier will probably be the longest car. I'm going to grab some trucks and model up a box on wheels that represents my max clearances and use it to test clearances. 

I took Denray up on his offer to call and we spoke for a while last night, thanks Dennis. With all the comments my plan is now to build a ladder system behind where the taller mountains are and build a shell up for those areas. I'll also be using the U type cinder blocks for the ramps and use a combination of dirt and then faux mountains to build the transitions. 

I'm also going to rework the mountains and keep the tall mountains where the curbing gets wider and use bridges in the narrow sections. I'll get everything hopefully dry fit so I can test run everything in the next couple of weeks. I'll try some things and if it doesn't work I'll just try to adjust and worst case pull parts out and start over. I just need to have fun and enjoy this and stop over engineering this.


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Brandon,

Had to laugh when you mentioned building a "clearance checker". Dirk advised the same thing to me when he was here this past week. His suggestion was to attach a wooden yardstick to a set of trucks then make a front, middle and rear plate about 4 1/2 inches on center.(I' using 1:20.3 scale measurements plus 1/2 inch, Just In Case) This sounds like it would be larger than most of engines and cars you and likely visitors would be running. If curves and tunnels have enough clearance for a 36" long "checker" device your trains should be okay. Alan


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Now I'm laughing with you guys.!!! haha, hehe!!!! 

Anyway - just trying to help MY train Buddies with a cheap and quick and dirty ''tool'' for their tunnel building, on their layouts with normal curves.... 

Why spend a lot of time just to check a tunnel.... 
Yet, if it is the wrong size and built, well than - that becomes a different can of worms... 

Just be'n neigh-bor-ly like.... 

Go build some tunnels guys, Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Than again, a yard stick is ''shorter'' than a new Autorack, (37'') 

Brandon was 'hoping' to run them..... 

D


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

OK guys 3 posts in a row!! ha 

Alan, you tugged on My memory, .. the J&S pass. car on my bench has a roof which is over 5 1/32'' wide ... 

So be advised when making ''tunnel checking tools'', what you may send thru them thar tunnel 'portals'..... 

The car is F scale / 1/20.3 big stuffens.. 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I measured my cars and locos, I built a tunnel, I used my chainsaw to open the portal, then the first run continued. 1:24 on 10'D curves.... 

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Brandon, me thinks you must be busy as a beaver with the screen and mud possibly, your being so sneaky quiet.... hehe!! 

Hope your having some fun and building what you like.. 

Dirk


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Is this the correct diamond metal lath? It comes in 96"x27" lengths. 

 

 

Also, to keep cars from falling off I found this vinyl siding ($7 per 16' length) that I'll put on the sides of the track so that if cars derail, they can be "pulled" out easier from the tunnels and it's less likely to break or scrape up the cars if they derail inside the mountain.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Yes Brandon it is the very same stuff, excited to see progress. 
Suggestion, Don't place very much mesh untill you do some trial and err with the cement 
Dennis


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