# What do you want on a New Portable Live Steam Track



## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Going to have a New Portable built.

This will be the traveling portable to the major events

I am thinking of inter track Diameter of 20' and outer 21' 6" outer. Which would 9" center to center.

Now for the length? 45 foot?

And how many sidings? I am thinking 4 with a cross over on each side. 

So give me your suggestions


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

Electricity....


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Oh oh 
Shad you said a bad word on this form.........LOL


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Cont forget a entrance bridge. some times it't hard to crawl under.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By livesteam53 on 19 Aug 2010 04:01 PM 
Going to have a New Portable built.

This will be the traveling portable to the major events

I am thinking of inter track radius of 20' and outer 21' 6" outer. Which would 9" center to center.

Now for the length? 45 foot?

And how many sidings? I am thinking 4 with a cross over on each side. 

So give me your suggestions 















Mark,
I am a little confused about the 'LENGTH'?
1) A 20' radius (too large for a portable if you ask me) will give you a 40 foot diameter circle, so are you saying add 45 feet of straight to make the total length 85'?
2) For what purpose is this portable track going to be used? Surely, if for exhibitions etc., it would make sense to design it's size to fit WHERE it will be used. Maybe some events can't give you 85' x 40' plus crowd control barriers?
3) A recent article in the G1MRA newsletter points out that they decided on mainly 4' x 2' modules to make sure that it was indeed portable as one person can carry a section. Our club layout sections are so large and unwieldy that you need a couple of people on each.
4) I have always felt that there should be enough stand alone sidings to store four or five complete trains (10 car Daylight is 24 feet long) so that they are out of the way of running live steam. 
5) A stand alone steam up area with, if possible, a turntable. (Big Boy length???)
6) The 'correct' height! Not too high, and not too short!
7) A lifting bridge for easy access in and out of the track.
8) Outside track in one direction, and inside the other with 'trailing' crossovers to avoid any chance of head on collisions.
9) 9" centres seems excessive, but if you expect two K36's to pass one another, I guess, but it does look strange when two 1/32 scale locos are running!!! 
Good luck with it.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

My MISTAKE !!! 
I edited it to Diameter.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

David, 

I had that problem running a K-28 and a K-36 and torn off the side curtains on the 36. I was 7" centers on that portable. 
This will be a Eaglewings Portable with all adjustable stands. 
So I am thinking size wise be be in the neighborhood of 22' x 46'

Yes a lifting bridge would be nice instead crawling under all the time.


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## linuxhost (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Mark.
I'm glad to hear that you are talking this on. It means one less thing that I have to do.
I agree with everything that you have mentioned. 

The only suggestion that I would offer is to add a place where a siding can spur off into the middle, for car storage. 

As you know, we always have a problem with car storage. On the current track we are always having to add or remove cars by playing God.

It would be really nice to just shuffle them on to the spur. 


Let me know what assistance I can be.

Doug Bronson


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Doug, 
Assuming that I am controlling a live steam locomotive manually, from the inside of the track, so that I can cut across the middle should I need to, the last thing that I need are tracks across the centre of the layout. 
I would think that it is preferable to have those, and steamup tracks on the outside and leave the middle clear. 
I guess that it's okay to do that if all runners are either r/c, or have locos that never need instant attention. 
Also since Mark is talking about only having 25 feet of inside space, by the time you have switches off the straight, and storage tracks that only use up a portion of the centre area, you are probably only talking 10 foot of siding length. 
Fine for a few box cars, but again if you are talking 6, 8 or 10 passenger cars, probably of not too much use. 
If you come off the outside on the layout you have 20 or 30 feet of potential straight sidings , still staying within the 22' x 46' footprint and leave the inside open. 
Anyway, it's NOT my track, so please take these suggestions as just that! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## linuxhost (Jan 5, 2008)

David, 
Good and valid points. 
The reasons that I like the storage tracks on the inside is to keep the public's view unobstructed. 
It also provides a safe place to store them out of reach from people who prefer to see with their hands rather then their eyes. 
I have had damage caused by them on both the layout and company tables. 
Also there are always kids (more like parents who let them) run around the track to chase the trains. They always seem to run into things that are on the outside. 

But as you have pointed out, it does have very strong disadvantages for us manual runners. 

If I had to choose one over the other, I would prefer to protect the equipment over making my running easier. But this is just my thoughts. 
Doug Bronson


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By livesteam53 on 19 Aug 2010 04:01 PM 
Going to have a New Portable built.

This will be the traveling portable to the major events

I am thinking of inter track Diameter of 20' and outer 21' 6" outer. Which would 9" center to center.

Now for the length? 45 foot?

And how many sidings? I am thinking 4 with a cross over on each side. 

So give me your suggestions 


Doug
We are in the process of our new portable.
The core material will be aluminum frame and dibond top for light weight.


http://www.realsteamservices.com/track/ 










Our first track was "frame less" and has serviced us well for the past 5 years. 

















The new track (as well as the old) has a 16 feet yard with four storage tracks that runs off the straight. The updated track will have a transfer/rotary table and engine steamup yard both are "outside" the main track. I do not like storage tracks inside the layout as that seem to impede the engineers ability to access locomotive when running their locomotives.











One of the best tracks is Mike Moore's portable above and following:










Mike as add yard sections and also has a turntable.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Those sections look awfully long to me - just how big ARE they? 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape meares Lighthouse restoration Fund


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Terry
My straight sections are 4 foot (4' x 30"). I chose 30" because it fit in my minivan and secondly one person alone can handle it. The transitional sections (pie shape) are 55" (if I recall correctly). The track is 60 foot in length. Mike's track sections on the straights are 8 feet long (4 x 8)


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Ah, thanks, Charles, I should have said 'Mike's track'... 

Sadly I can't get eight-foot long anything in any of my cars unless I folded it up. 

Best 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a trailer or two at my disposal so the 8 foot length doesn't scare me..the weight scares me. I'm not getting any younger & I'm not THAT old yet. I've been thinking of a portable but nothing on this scale still larger than the small oval which I think it is Tom B has had at Ridge Road Station's open houses? Not much larger than that though as not only is transport an issue but storage currently is a problem. With my mother living with us storage is at a high premium. 
I do however agree that there is a trade off to internal yards and servicing facilities and outside ones. I would think it really depends on how much of that you think you need and how much real estate it takes up, Inside or outside the oval. What do the "show" organizers allow and how mcuh room will they allow you to set up? I can remember a large scale modular (electric) at a Show in Buffalo NY years ago with a huge turntable that took up fully a third of the interior space. Not so much a recommendation as food for thought. 

Chas


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## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

I do have a concern with the lifting bridge... All it takes is one person to not see an oncoming train for a beautiful engine to crash to the ground. The only large portable track i've seen is Mike Moore's, and what they've done is build some steps so people can step over the track. Just seems less dangerous to me.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Anthony
As with all aspects of a layout there are pros and cons. I prefer the walk over, similar to Mike's arrangement. Yet, if one is not careful then a train could be on the ground as one crosses over a moving object (even though you are not, but some people do not pay attention cross while train is running under foot). At the NSS with their setup of the lift bridge there was only one potential incident but that was prevented by attentive steamers. The bridge has a alert when it is opened. The downside to the lift bridge is when it was busy on the track it got locked thus having to crawl under the track.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well no matter how you slice it or dice it better make a bit lower than 45 ft as mentioned in the original post. Some where he for got to separate







the 4 to 5. Later RJD


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Mark: As a "down-the-road" improvement I would suggest adding buildings, structures, passenger platforms, maybe "store front" type scenery. Most live steam portables are rather bland. The 16mm guys in the UK add scenery features which really enhance the layout.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I vote for some kind of scenery as well. A couple water towers, a coaling station, some whistle stop platforms, a depot or two, some automobiles... SOMETHING (preferably in a reasonable scale - Lemax and Dept 56 buildings are usually closer to O-scale, I can't help it if they're the cheap, especially the day after Christmas). It isn't very hard to make up 12" x 12" mini scenes mounted on their own plywood bases... these will fit really well into #7 or large flat rate priority mail boxes for transport, too. (Don't tell the PO, tho)


Yes, I know the main focus of the operators is on running the trains.... but entertaining the viewers should be a consideration as well.


Edit added: For the right $$ I'd even build you a couple cute mini scenes.... would 1:24 do? Or are you mostly planning on running 1:32 mainline stuff?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 20 Aug 2010 10:06 AM 
Well no matter how you slice it or dice it better make a bit lower than 45 ft as mentioned in the original post. Some where he for got to separate







the 4 to 5. Later RJD 
Hi RJD,
I think that if you re-read it, the 45 feet is the length, and NOT the height.
I would think that a height of around 36" - 38" is a nice one.
4ft to 5ft would be rather on the high side, unless you are very tall.
Remember to have some kind of a 'riser' that the younger children can stand on to see the action. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 20 Aug 2010 11:28 AM 
I vote for some kind of scenery as well. A couple water towers, a coaling station, some whistle stop platforms, a depot or two, some automobiles... SOMETHING (preferably in a reasonable scale - Lemax and Dept 56 buildings are usually closer to O-scale, I can't help it if they're the cheap, especially the day after Christmas). It isn't very hard to make up 12" x 12" mini scenes mounted on their own plywood bases... these will fit really well into #7 or large flat rate priority mail boxes for transport, too. (Don't tell the PO, tho)


Yes, I know the main focus of the operators is on running the trains.... but entertaining the viewers should be a consideration as well.


Edit added: For the right $$ I'd even build you a couple cute mini scenes.... would 1:24 do? Or are you mostly planning on running 1:32 mainline stuff? 


Mik,
I do agree with that.
I've seen the Anglia Roads railway in the UK, where they have narrow scenery modules that hook on the outside of the layout, and some on the inside.
Looks very sensible, and adds that realism to the reality of live steam. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

The Height will have adjustable stands any where from 32" to 60" so it could be set up on pretty much anywhere if the ground or floor was not level. 
Building and scenery I am not worry about. Guys 1st got to get the frame built. 
Besides way to much to haul.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark
"Besides way to much to haul." I agree.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By livesteam53 on 20 Aug 2010 12:06 PM 
.....
Building and scenery I am not worry about. Guys 1st got to get the frame built. 
Besides way to much to haul. 



While building the frame is the perfect time to PLAN to add scenery. You asked, we answered. Sorry it wasn't the kind of suggestion you wanted to hear. 

As for the last little inconvenience... Recruit more help? If two or three guys are doing ALL the work ALL the time it's going to become no fun REAL fast anyway.


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## johnsteam (Feb 16, 2008)

This is my portable layout 10 foot diameter ends (too small) and 15 foot straight aways with sidings on 3/4 inch plywood . It adjusts to unlevel ground , and about 18 to22 inches off the ground, a comfortable chair height for servicing the steamers. John D


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark: 
Layout by comittee? No sure if it's not a Rx for headaches. But why not jump in the deep end. 

But, but this is what I would build FWIW, not debating points.


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## BillW (Jun 11, 2008)

Mark, while I don't use generally mind the open top on your current track, you might consider a "solid" type of top. I think some of the places we have set up prefer it, as it limits the spilling of oil, water and fuel. 

Bill Wilbanks


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris Scott on 20 Aug 2010 09:08 PM
Mark: 
Layout by comittee? No sure if it's not a Rx for headaches. But why not jump in the deep end. 

But, but this is what I would build FWIW, not debating points. 


On second thought, design by committee is far too dangerous to get mixed up in. But good luck.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By johnsteam on 20 Aug 2010 08:40 PM 







This is my portable layout 10 foot diameter ends (too small) and 15 foot straight aways with sidings on 3/4 inch plywood . It adjusts to unlevel ground , and about 18 to22 inches off the ground, a comfortable chair height for servicing the steamers. John D


John,
I have to ask.
It looks like an Accucraft Royal Hudson on the track.
How did you manage to get it around the 5 foot radius, or is it just on display? 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## johnsteam (Feb 16, 2008)

Yes David, it is the Royal Hudson, it didn't go around the track (shucks), it sat on the the siding as a display model only this time. I'm working on designing a 19.1 foot diameter. 
John in Manitoba


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 20 Aug 2010 11:28 AM 
I vote for some kind of scenery as well. A couple water towers, a coaling station, some whistle stop platforms, a depot or two, some automobiles... SOMETHING (preferably in a reasonable scale - Lemax and Dept 56 buildings are usually closer to O-scale, I can't help it if they're the cheap, especially the day after Christmas). It isn't very hard to make up 12" x 12" mini scenes mounted on their own plywood bases... these will fit really well into #7 or large flat rate priority mail boxes for transport, too. (Don't tell the PO, tho)


Yes, I know the main focus of the operators is on running the trains.... but entertaining the viewers should be a consideration as well.


Edit added: For the right $$ I'd even build you a couple cute mini scenes.... would 1:24 do? Or are you mostly planning on running 1:32 mainline stuff? 




It gives operators the feeling they are going somewhere and doing something. And definately, if it's a public run, the added scenery is a huge hit.

It's a work in progress. Add a little every once in a while.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

" I'm working on designing a 19.1" 

Why stop there? At another foot at least, then anything will run on it, including an Aster Daylight.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

What do you want on a new portable live steam track....extra hands! So, without the additional digits claps will do. The project moves on with the majority of the surface mounted to the frame using Loctite PL Premium polyurethane construction adhesive that is waterproof sets up in 30 minutes and cures in 24 hours.


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## johnsteam (Feb 16, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pantages on 21 Aug 2010 11:12 PM 
" I'm working on designing a 19.1" 

Why stop there? At another foot at least, then anything will run on it, including an Aster Daylight. 


Dan, I drew line of 19.1 ft. dia. because, ten x 6 foot flex track sections = 720 inch circumference divided by pi (that's outside rail). AND plus I am a one man show.
Trying to keep it portably simple.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Another foot is not going to make it nonportable but it will make it usable for all engines.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

4) I have always felt that there should be enough stand alone sidings to store four or five complete trains (10 car Daylight is 24 feet long) so that they are out of the way of running live steam.I agree wholeheartedly with this one. Storage is always a problem, and it's a pain to have to remove your train at the end of each run. The more sidings, the better. Perhaps even a separate module containing a long yard. Tracks could be more closely spaced because there would be no curves or overhang problems. It could connect to the main via a single turnout.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

BTW, sidings on the main track or a storage yard also lend themselves to true operations when things aren't crowded. I've done that a few times at the NSS on the big green track during times of low activity. Switching, set outs, and pick ups are fun with a live steamer (especially if it's R/C'ed in mho) and adds additional interest to running locos or trains on loops. Just food for thought.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Dwight, 
I been waiting for you to chime in! 
I do agree wit a storage yard and it is food for thought. 
So I got to git a plan drawn up so I can get a quote from Dan. 
I got a few ideas with a switch running to the inside of the layout with lets a say a 4 track yard. 
The only problem is that it will be where you can not follow your loco on the inside too well.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry for the delay Mark - I've been kinda busy.









I kind of favor an outside yard myself. It has, to my mind, several advantages... 

First, it doesn't have to be used if space is at a premium. 

Second, it doesn't foul the central area and leaves it free for tables, and you KNOW how much we always need those! 

Third, if it came off the main track more or less perpendicular to its connection point, say on a curve, it could be stashed in the back towards a wall away from the immediate crowds who always want to "touch." 

Fourth, it could be connected by a lifting bridge which, when not in immediate use, would remain in the raised position, thus not impeding someone walking along with his train on the outside (or running along for the Warp 9 crowd). An automatic mechanical gate could be rigged where the track exits the main track table/support/whatever. With the lift bridge connected to the yard, it would, when lowered, press down on spring loaded pins connected to the gate, thereby lowering it as well. People wouldn't be hauling ass when exiting the yard, and would most likely be paying close attention, so the likelihood of drops to the floor or hitting the gate would be substantially reduced. 

****, with a little ingenuity, the mainline exit turnout could be mechanically or electrically interlocked to the bridge and gate so it could not be thrown unless both were in their lowered position. If electric interlocking were used, that would, in a manner of speaking and in an acceptable fashion, give Shad his 'lectricity.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

I'll give you a call tomorrow night. Nice post on your 7 1/2 I know you been busy.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll give you a call tomorrow night.Sounds good Mark. Make it after 7:30.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay Mark, based upon our phone conversation and the spec's you gave me, here's a drawing of what I had in mind...










These dimensions can, of course, be modified as you see fit. You're also free to dismiss the whole idea.


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## maculsay (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight impressive!! But there's no way to crossover from the outer to the inner mainline and back again. Getting to & from the yard is either a long backwards move out or in.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By maculsay on 24 Aug 2010 01:23 AM 
Dwight impressive!! But there's no way to crossover from the outer to the inner mainline and back again. Getting to & from the yard is either a long backwards move out or in. Yes, along with having to get your train off and on at a curve point can be a challenge both in operations and design.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I just didn't worry about showing them Howard. I was just trying to illustrate the concept.









Charles - on the phone, Mark and I talked about the need for a custom curved turnout. If well built, it should pose no more difficulty than any other turnout. As for putting the exit on a curve, it was the best way to maximize both yard length and aisle space, as well as the square footage required to set everything up.

Having a siding on both sides of the main also poses trade-offs - while providing more sidings, it also makes it more difficult to steam up from the inside on the outer loop. However, putting both outside sidings on one side and both inner sidings on the other is even worse as the trains are so much closer together - not to mention that it reduces the length of one of the two sidings.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Dwight, Not a bad idea. 
Howard, not problem for a cross over on the 2 straights from inter to outer


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 24 Aug 2010 06:18 AM 
I just didn't worry about showing them Howard. I was just trying to illustrate the concept.









Charles - on the phone, Mark and I talked about the need for a custom curved turnout. If well built, it should pose no more difficulty than any other turnout. As for putting the exit on a curve, it was the best way to maximize both yard length and aisle space, as well as the square footage required to set everything up.

Having a siding on both sides of the main also poses trade-offs - while providing more sidings, it also makes it more difficult to steam up from the inside on the outer loop. However, putting both outside sidings on one side and both inner sidings on the other is even worse as the trains are so much closer together - not to mention that it reduces the length of one of the two sidings.

Dwight
Yes it is possible given good turnout, we had 3 on the layout. I just think it is better to separate the yard on/off by connecting it to the outer spur on the straight way then have the train enter the main line off the spur connection. This would keep the mainline engaged versus delays while a train clears the line.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I just think it is better to separate the yard on/off by connecting it to the outer spur on the straight way then have the train enter the main line off the spur connection.True, but that would consume more floor space, which is okay if such space is available wherever he's setting up.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I also think that being a modular desiign that the 90 degree section that the switch comes off could be swapped and the 90 degree section leading into the curve could be dropped giving a long version. Depends on how it is built though. 

Chas


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I also think that being a modular desiign that the 90 degree section that the switch comes off could be swapped and the 90 degree section leading into the curve could be dropped giving a long version. Depends on how it is built though. Good point, and one I didn't consider. For that matter, the yard could also drop an end module making it shorter if need be.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Part of the reason being modular is helpful...if it is built right...it can be set up in different configurations. 

Chas


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks for the input from all of you now to see what can be done and how much the cost.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Now to see how it will layout stayed tuned.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Holy cow Mark!! Portable?? -- like with an 18 wheeler?? I wish I could come help you build, that's going to be great.

vr Bob


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Bob, 
It got to portable for all the Live Steam events. The 1st is Nov 6-7 in Pomona, Ca 

http://www.swgrs.com/modx-1.0.0-rc1/


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