# Stainless, Brass or Aluminum?



## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

Hello everyone, I am new to the forum and the outdoor scene of model railroading. I plan on starting a layout next spring and I am in need of opinions on which track will hold up best. I already plan on running aristo- craft or LGB track with no less than a 11.5' diameter. Stainless would be ideal aside from the price tag, my question is how well would aluminum or brass hold up to the cold weather and snow? Any advice/opinions would be great! Thanks.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

S.S. is expensive, and I have 500ft. of 332 brass out in my backyard now for about 3+ years. Holding up well no problems, tarnishes a bit, AND if you go battery/RC "what me worry" LOL Greg E. has all S.S. and I think he likes it, but then again he is in Kalifornia land of sunshine and rain. I hear Aluminum is ok but will bend easily if stepped on or abused. Regal


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## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

I just finished a 340 ft (11.5 Dia) Elevated Layout (2.5 years work) using 332 Aristo SS rail...... The cost of 8 ft rail "in the Pipe" must account for a dual rail bender, Split Jaw SS clamps, R7 Ni plated Train LI switches, & $55 for 48 ft of slide on ties..... I bought all my SS Track (rail) 3 years ago at GOOD Prices..... 

I use Brass rail for display shelves.... Have some PVC Display rail too...... All my rail is 332 code for added Strength purposes.... 

For Aluminum I see corrosion & impact bend/kink problems.... Brass has corrosion related additional cleaning.... 

Dennis M from GBay, WI


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

My railroad is almost totally brass code 332. It's been out for 7 years now in South West Michigan. I use DCC through the track power. I do have to clean the track occasionally, but not all that often. Usually I just push a dry wall sander pole with a scotch bright pad on it around the layout and it's ready to go. As long as you have good connections between track sections and enough power connections it should work fine.
Bob


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

Is the only side effect of brass rail tarnishing? If so then that's no big deal as long as it doesn't interfere with current flow.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

If you end up not liking any of the three types of metals you've mentioned, there is also Nickel Silver. 


That's what we use. Specifically Llagas Creek. Has held up extremely well over several years. That's a good thing given the harsh weather we get at 8000' in the San Juan mountains of Southwest Colorado. But it is on the pricey side for track.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By c_wrobe901 on 09 Nov 2011 07:33 PM 
Is the only side effect of brass rail tarnishing? If so then that's no big deal as long as it doesn't interfere with current flow. 

If you go with track power, you will have to get a pole cleaner, several topics on here about cleaning track, yes it does lose conductivity as well as all of em do. So if you use track /electricity you will be cleaning track whatever you pick, a couple 3 times a year or more. 


That's why I said I don't worry about it as I'm battery/RC on everything outdoors. No muss no fuss just charge yer batteries, and or have a spare ready to pop in, for longer runs. Regal


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Brass will tarnish, but that's a good thing. It gets a nice, dark patina on it which looks far more "realistic" in the garden than either the bright shiny yellow of new brass, or the silver of the stainless steel. Stainless and aluminum needs to be painted to look "weathered" like prototype rail. Not necessarily problematic, but another step in the process if you're after something of a realistic appearance to your track. (Nickel Silver gets a similarly dark patina on it over time. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did not see anything on track power or not... My opinion would be based on the answer. 

Greg


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks for everyones opinions and advice, I find myself getting more excited about laying that first piece of track... next spring.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, when questioning track type, type of power is important. 

Some basic choices are: 

track power 

Battery power 

Live steam 

Battery power and track power for car lights and/or visitors


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

Right now im leaning towards track power, but how long can I expect a loco to run on battery. Also, were do you guys shop online for track and engines?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Battery depends upon the engine, how many amps it draws, and the size of the battery pack. I have a Lithium-ion pack that delivers 18.2 volts and has a rating of 5200 milli amps. Using this with a Revo ( Aristocraft product) I have run an Aristocraft Mallet pulling 32 cars for over 2 hours. I'm told that I might expect 3 to 3.5 hours of running with this engine and battery pack. So far I have stopped running before the battery ran out.


My normal running is with brass track and track power (I use battery on layouts that aren't set up for DC track power). The brass rails need to be polished, not a big problem. I use a drywall sander with a green 3M pad. That works for me. 


The bottom line is that battery run depends on the size of the battery and the current draw of the engine. By battery size I mean voltage and amp rating.


Chuck


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I typically run 6 - 10 car trains, and run with 2600mAh Li-Ion packs. I get anywhere from 3 - 4 hours typically on a single charge. I can swap out discharged packs on most of my locos. On the ones where I can't, I use higher-capacaty packs (4800mAh or thereabouts) and get 7 - 8 hours. Not bad for a battery that's all of 3" x 3" x 1.75". 

Later, 

K


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

Thsoe run times aren't bad. I got a bunch of 2 and 3 cell lipos and a charger laying around that I use in my brushless rc trucks. Also with battery power I wont have to worry about reversing polarity.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

2 cells will only be good for letting a loco trundle around a layout. 3 cells will give a bit more top speed. The usual minimum is 4 cells with 5 & 6 more common for large scale. 

You can probably even run the locos under R/C using the exact same equipment you are using in your R/C trucks. Just add an extra RX, an ESC for brushed motors & a battery pack.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 11 Nov 2011 07:39 PM 
2 cells will only be good for letting a loco trundle around a layout. 3 cells will give a bit more top speed. The usual minimum is 4 cells with 5 & 6 more common for large scale. 

You can probably even run the locos under R/C using the exact same equipment you are using in your R/C trucks. Just add an extra RX, an ESC for brushed motors & a battery pack. 





Hey Tony 

What is ECS?

JJ


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

JJ That is an ESC[/b]. E[/b]lectronic S[/b]peed C[/b]ontroller*.*


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

Would it be more cost effective to build my own track? Are there extra tools needed to do this? Also, is it just the weight of the rock that secures the track to the roadbed?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

There are different ways of securing the track. Some people just dig a trench where they want the track to go, fill it with ballast, and "float" the track on top. Others build a "ladder" out of flexible material like the PVC trim Hoe depot sells. The ladder method has worked well for me. Some people build concrete trackways, embed fasteners, and attach the plate to those. Google "mylargescale, 'ladder method'" and you'll find a lot of info. 

Lots of people build their own track. It looks better. Is it cheaper? Not sure. 

Track power/DCC works very well for me. I have about 3/4 stainless and the rest brass, and where I live I don't see much difference in the the two, which surprised me. I think how much cleaning you have to do depends A LOT on not just where you live, but the kind of plants etc you have.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I thought that you were building a portable layout. Any rock would add weight that is unnecessary. If you want a ballast look on our portable you might be able to use some kind of plastic (foam) pellets. 

They wouldn't add any stability, but they might look nice.

Chuck


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## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

Your Layout comment about "building your own track".... I take to mean assembling your own track ????? 
That means buying 8ft Aristo 332 Brass or Stainless Rails "in the aluminum pipe" and adding the slip on ties. 

Aristo part no is ART11005 or 11006 (Brass) or Stainless Steel 20035 or 20037 using bulk ties 30033B....... 
The 2nd item numbers listed above are 48 ft of rail vs 96 ft of rail.... Bulk ties come in 48 ft version.... 1 ft long each.... 

As for extra tools & parts..... You will need a dual rail bender (Aristo or Train-LI or another brand)......, Rail clamps, 90 DEg 
4" or 4.5" angle grinder, & switches to route your trains..... 

A few carpenter tools & files also get in the mix..... Like holding clamps.... etc...... 

Track prices based on Aristo items from dealers must be evaluated to get a RUFF Cost for the Size of layout you are considering.... 

Dennis M from GBay, WI


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Our track is relatively heavy, mine floats in ballast. Use broken rock for ballast because the sharp corners lock to each other and thus hold the track in place. Smooth or round rocks will migrate away from where you want it; rain, vibrations and critters.... All my rails are joined by screws through the joiners. It is ridgid, when the sun heats it, it expands as a whole and I've never seen a kink. 
I chose Aristo SS track because it was available and I like the look of steel on top and dirty sides, plus I have 300 pound migratory piggies that travel through my yard. It was great for track power, before I converted to battery power. There is a smaller code 250 track available in SS which is somewhat cheaper and more realistic. 

Aluminum is the cheapest rail, but it's oxidation is Non-conductive so it's not recomended for track power. Better suited for batteries and live steam power. 

Don't use Bachmann's hollow rails (older starter setss) it attracts rust 
Welcome aboard. 
John


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Train-li has a concrete code 332 tie available and in different colors such as black, dark brown, gray, red, pink, blue, white, greeen all made in the USA. 

Also wood grain ties European style.


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

Well it sounds like "assembling" my own track is a little more work than I want to get into, so I will keep it simple and stick to sectional track and float it on the roadbed. Just did a rough measurement of the garden and appears I will need to start out with roughly 160 feet of track (of course not including sidings or a yard), but I have enough work cut out for me come spring. Thanks for everyone's help, more questions are sure to come!


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! Quick question, what is the difference between code 250 and code 332 brass? Are there advantages/disadvantages to one over the other?


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Rail Code = height of rail in thousandths of an inch.

Code 250 rail = 0.250" in height
[*] Thought by some to be more prototypical in size and looks better.
[*] More prone to damage if stepped upon and not adequately supported.
[*] Usually costs less (less metal).
[/list] Code 332 rail = 0.332" in height
[*] Thought by some to be to toy like and not representative of prototype.
[*] Less prone to damage from being stepped upon.
[*] Usually costs more (more metal).
[/list]


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Code refers to height in decimal inches. Code 250 is a quarter of an inch while Code 332 is close to a third of an inch. 
Our trains run equally well over them, but larger rocks in ballast can get close to the flanges with .250". 

Code 250 should be cheaper because there is less brass in it. However it is a smaller market which may affect the price. 

The major reason for Code 250 is a more protypical look, Code 332 is like high speed Standard Ga. mainline rail. One of the selling points of Narrow Ga. was lighter materials, smaller rolling stock and lower pound per yard rails. So for those modeling narrow ga. in 1:20.3 Code 250 is more accurate of the smaller rails used. 

We got the larger rail from companies needing to be compatable with LGB. LGB started as semi-scale toy trains, but we want more scale trains than toys.... albeit with that compromising 10' rule! I resisted the idea when a clerk at my LHS (local hobby shop) said; 'if you can't see it at 10' don't bother.' The combination of weather, time and critters makes this practical. I wanted steel rail so went with the Aristo code 332 Stainless, because it was on the shelves. I over look the oversize and my compressed 10' d curves and a bunch of other stuff in the name of fun. And budget! 

Happy Rails / Happy Thanksgiving 

John


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## HaBi Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

This may or may not be accurate, but . . . a couple of years ago when I started looking at different types of track, it seemed that Micro Engineering (332 aluminum) was the only track manufactured in the USA, if that is ever a consideration.


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

That makes sense. Glad I went with code 332, some parts of my track may be subjected to high foot traffic.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

I came from the Hi-Rail side of this hobby (22 years with American Flyer S gauge), so the large code 332 rails did not bother me. I also needed the durability of code 332, as my first garden railroad was ground level. When I rebuild, I will probably use a raised platform system. With the current price of track, I will most likely be keeping what I already have. If I were starting over, I'd probably use the code 250 rail. 

Yours, 
David Meashey


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

Aristo's track comes with UV resistant ties, correct? I suppose it is not a big deal seeing that most of the track will be covered with ballast.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

To complete the track choices:

Plastic track (only suitable for indoors and limited outdoor application with battery power - and of course storage track - very cost effective)
Aluminium track (only suitable for battery power, weaker material when stepped on)
Brass Track (cost effective choice if used with a track cleaning locomotive or other track cleaning cars on a regular basis and if properly installed)
Nickel Silver Track (corrossion just like Brass - just silvery looking and black in about 1 month here int he New England climate)

Brass plated with solid NI (has all the good conductivty as Brass and no oxidation just like stainless steel, easier to bend, and comes in 5' or 8' assembled, 20% less cost than stainless steel)
Stainless Steel (no corrosion, 1:10 conductivity as compared to Brass, harder to bend, needs to be assembled, most expensive)

All ties are UV protected in all my examples.


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

Perfect. Now you say that brass track needs to be cleaned on a regular basis, does this mean every week? More or less?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yeah, the brass needs periodic cleaning (if you use track power), due to oxidation -- though other folks will have to tell you how frequently. That's part of why Greg E. asked about track power vs. battery, etc. 

I'm sort of new to this too, and opted for the Train Li track ("nickel-plated" brass), for the reasons Axel just said (he's the Train Li guy, and has been a great help to me).

Question for you, Axel. I've found that the rail is solid in color all the way through (not like a plating over brass), wherever I cut it. No brass coloration inside at all, just silverish; can't detect any plating. This is a good thing, because I was concerned at some point about the plating ever wearing off. So... is it actually a solid alloy-mix of nickel-brass? 

===Cliff


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

I heard some guys use a scotch brite pad to keep their rails clean. What about a brass tarnish remover? What do you guys use to keep the rails clear?


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

@Cliffy:

Colored all the way through. When you look at photos of pure brass track in good light conditions it has often fooled me to look silvery. When cutting NI plated track the illusion is even stronger, but it sure is hardcore Brass on the inside. It are the Brass rails that go to the NI plater for the process bath.


@C-wrobe901
I have even seen poeple use a block with an attached drywall sander and that worked wonders too. But some poeple don't like to go out and clean x hundred feet and what I found the switches are a little bit more difficult to clean. No the brass cleaner is not a good idea, any residue left (and it is more than easy because the paste easily will b e left and right of the rail-head, will quickly allow to creep up even stronger oxidation. The Brass cleaner is a chemical that if left on the rail works as an accelerator. But if you want to try, use Wenol, one of the best metal polishing products I have used. If you use it, you need warm soapy water to wash it all off.


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

Cleaning will depend on a lot of factors. What is your location and climate like? Do you have trees or plants close by that have any sap or oils. Even how oftend you use your track. Do you have pets that think the track is a good place to mark. 

I live in central Oklahoma, we have a relatively dry climate (although locals claim it's humid), temperatures from 100 in summer to teens in Winter. No sappy trees or plants near my layout. I clean my track twice a year and it does just fine. That doesn't count leaves, rocks, and other debris that you check before every run. 

I use the old LGB cleaning block for the tuff spots (not sure what its made of, though it works great) and a drywall sander with the red scotch brite pad for the rest. 
Steve


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

I and two of my friends all have outside layouts in South West Michigan. We all use brass track. They both use DC and I use DCC. None of us has to clean track all that often. If it sits for a few weeks I will push a drywall sanding pole around with a Scotchbright pad on it. One pass over everything does it. And I will sometimes pull a track cleaning car around if I'm going to have people over (just as insurance). One of my friends is in his 80's and cannot get down to clean track. His track is all on the ground and he can usually just pull a track cleaning car around to clean his rails. At least in this part of the country it doesn't seem to be that big of a problem. 
Bob


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Here in New England I keep pure Brass track out for 4 weeks, it is black. I have lots of pine trees which makes for a very acid ground - I guess, but even an accidentally forgotten piece away from the pines is black in no time. And these piece are not in my layout, I kept them in the garden from my early experimentation days.


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

There will be quite a few plants around the track, most of them don't secrete any sap except for one smaller spruce tree. I plan on pulling a cleaning car around the tracks every so often and calling it good. 
Progress so far... I have purchased about 900 dollars worth of track and I am looking into a dcc system. What system do you guys recommend and where is the best place to buy.


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

I believe the NCE 10 amp wireless radio set is ideal for large scale indoors and outdoors. The throttle is simple and I have controlled and programmed just about all the decoders. Litchfield Station and Tony's Trains are good DCC suppliers. Go to a club and try the different throttles if possible. Good Luck and keep us posted. Alan


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

I would like to keep it simple as it will be my first ever dcc system. I will take a look at the NCE.


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

I have got my eye on an MRC Prodigy Advance 2, it is a starter set that comes with everything needed except decoders. It is only a 3 amp power supply, will that be sufficient enough for a large scale locomotive?


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## Pterosaur (May 6, 2008)

3 amps MAY be enough...Indoors I've been running 3 amp MRC supplies that move my K-27 pulling 4 AMS lighted passenger cars without complaint (fast too!). They also run 4-motor Lionel diesels and 2-motor LGB locos...Never had an issue. 10 amp supplies don't cost that much more and if I were to replace my indoor power supplies I'd go 10 amp (nice cushion). 

Outdoors I use two MRC 10 amp and one LGB 10 amp supply. 

3 amps will work, 10 gives room for expansion.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Many folks who go with DCC do so because they want to control multiple locomotives at the same time. If that's the case for you, I'd think 3 amps would be a bit limiting there. Three amps is fine for running one loco at a time. I use the MRC system to test DCC installations, and it's been quite adequate for that. But I only run one loco at a time on a small shelf railroad when I'm testing installations. I'm not running multiple loops or locomotives. Know, though, that the MRC system as it comes out of the box is also limited to around 18 volts max. This is fine if you're doing narrow gauge where speeds are typically slow, but for fast standard gauge trains, many large scale modelers like 24 volts to the rails. So take that into consideration when choosing a system for your railroad. 

Later, 

K


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## c_wrobe901 (Nov 9, 2011)

I know I am a bit indecisive when it comes to power systems, but I think dcc might be overkill for my plans. Mixing both track power with rc control will work perfect for my needs. I read on here that RCS systems offer an esc that will run off either track or battery power. Do they also sell 4 channel remotes and receivers?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

RCS of Australia (the original RCS) offers speed controllers that work with "standard" 2.4 gHz 2-stick radios. I don't know if Tony sells the radios as well, but he can point you in the right direction for them. I know Hobby King has some for around $25! I forget if they work with his stuff or not; worth asking. 

Later, 

K


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