# New AC C-16 conversion part 2



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

New belt drive Aristo C-16 bat/ R/c conversion;

In isolating the power pickups in the loco, do I need to remoce/cut them from the circuit board mounted on the back of the motor.

Also can I run the motor power back through that board? The loco/tender connector wires are routed to it. I'd like to keep it for the firebox golw led.

If there's a link to info on this board I'd love to have. Did look, no luck.

The smoke unit is gone and I liftedit's wires from the board.

This new board does not have a toggle switch mounted to it. All switches were in the tender.

Thanks,
John


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

All the wires in that locomotive go to and come from the tender. The track pick-ups from the loco run back to the tender prior to going back up to the motor, as do the firebox, headlights, and marker lights. That makes installing R/C in this loco dead-nuts simple. If you're planning on using an R/C system that has a plug-and-play receiver to fit in the Bachmann/Aristo-Craft socket, then you needn't rewire a single thing. Plug it in, connect the batteries to the battery pig-tails, and you're up and running. Otherwise, there are 8 wires between the loco and tender. Two are track power, so you needn't worry about those. Two are for the motor, two are for the lights, and two are for smoke. Figure out which is which (I believe Aristo has a wiring diagram which shows this) and you can cut the on-board circuit in the tender out of the mix and attach the wires to your controller directly. 

As for the filtering circuit on the back of the motor, that will depend on whose R/C system you're going to be using. Some control systems don't like certain manufacturers' noise filtering circuits, while others work very well. Check with the manufacturer of the R/C system you'll be using to see what they say. 

Later, 

K


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks for your reply. 
No plug and play.... I took out the board in the tender as instructed, using one of Del's Railbosses. I'm trying to keep the lights... 
To complicate it a tad, I'm using a Floating battery pack; it charges from the track and goes full battery in dead spots and through the reverse loops. Rectified for polarity. It was designed to add bat power on dirty track to keep the voltage constant. 
I like that it doesn't require a charging station and no battery packs to change out. Just park it on live track and it will recharge as I run the other loco. 
The batteries are in the boiler and I soldered it's leads to the motor board using the removed smoke unit's wires through the loco/tender connector plug. I figured out those wires, all 8.
Can you tell me the voltage of the lights? I'm hoping that the resistors for lighting are on the motor board, but if they were on the tender board I'm SOL! I don't have the skills to make the resistor set up. 
The Aristo diagrams only cover the plug and play sockets, I couldn't find anything for the circuits, neither the tender board nor the motor board. 

Thanks again. 
John


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The lights are incandescent bulbs, not LEDs, so I'd assume they're rated at 24 volts (or thereabouts) since that's the top end of the voltage range of the loco. As such, there are no resistors in line with them (leastwise that I remember seeing. They're not needed.) If you want to switch to LED lights, then you'll have to wire a resistor in series with them. I found 2.2K ohms to work well with the LEDs I've been using (stripes on the resistor = red, red, red, or 2, 2, and 2 zeros), but that might vary based on how much voltage you're running through the system. They're simple to wire in--just put them in line with the wire and where you're connecting it to. It doesn't matter which lead of the LED the resistor goes to. 

I'm not a huge fan of charging batteries from the track as you're running. For starters, if you're going through the trouble of putting batteries on board, you may as well just cut the wires altogether and save yourself the trouble. Constantly cleaning track is a hassle, as is installing and maintaining charged batteries. Why invite both hassles on yourself? Pick one and don't worry about the other. There's ample room in the loco for decent capacity batteries. But personal prejudice aside, the success of such a system relies on how effectively (and more importantly, safely) the batteries can be charged from the track. If the set-up you're using has a provision for controlled charging of the batteries, then okay. But if you're just hooking the track input (via a rectifier) to the battery leads to charge them, er, better make sure the batteries you're using tolerate such an environment. Sealed lead-acid (gel-cell) batteries do well under those circumstances, and some sound systems include such a battery to keep sounds going when track voltage gets low. They're clunky and heavy, though. NiCads are "okay" with it to a point. Their problem is that they have a "memory," and after a while might only hold a charge sufficient to get over the dead spots and nothing more. Your milage may vary. NiMH cells do not hold a charge long-term, so the chances of them having a base charge when you put the train on the track after a week of sitting on a shelf is practically nil. Then, you have to run the train for a few hours just to charge them back up to where they can actually power the train, so you've lost your advantage. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES place LiIon or LiPo batteries in such a set-up. They're okay to use provided they're charged by a dedicated charger, but not unregulated charging from the track. 

If you can make this system work for you, more power to you (pardon the pun). There's a reason more people aren't doing this kind of thing, though. It doesn't work as neatly in reality as it does in theory. 

Later, 

K


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge, I'm glad the lighting is simple, fits me to a Tee, 'cept my battery system sure gets a lot of flack, however the gentlmen that designed it have been running it for over a year with no trouble! It does use a trickle charge to resupply the bats. I made up 2 seven battery packs and wired them in series, NiMH. Keeping the track clean isn't an issue and will be less with the battery assist. I'm positive I can keep a 2' section clean enough to recharge should the bats ever get low. 
I hope to one day brag about this system... time will tell. Changing out the bat packs once a year or less is more to my liking. 

FYI; there is an led on the backhead to simulate firebox glow, it's wired to the motor board which I've left in place and am using for the loco/tender connections. I assume the board protects it. 

One other note; I'm designing this so my young grand nephews (3 to 6) can operate my trains. so I'm installing canned sound that is optically triggered. Also why I went with the Railboss, a 2 stick Tx will suit them best. 

Thanks again, should get the first loco buttoned up by tomorrow! 

John 

When I started making inquireries and told them my bat plans everyone has presented the same arguments. You are not alone. 

The bat system comes from: www.IPTrains.com if you want to see what they have to say about it. 

John


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks for the link. http://www.IPTrains.com for those wanting to click and go. It appears that they've got a current limiter in line with the batteries, so that's a good thing. If you don't run every day, I would recommend sitting your locos on a charge track when not being run. NiMH batteries do not hold a charge over long periods of non-use (a few days), so when you go to run your trains, you'll likely have very little "in reserve." I don't know how fast you'll fill that reserve during regular running; I think that would depend on how dirty your track is. Try it without first, and see how that goes. 

One thing I would recommend--make the "dead" section of your reverse loop only as long as minimally possible (your longest loco, or perhaps twice that just to accommodate doubleheading) so that your reliance on battery power is minimized. There's no reason for the entire loop to be dead, unlike the old school wiring where the entire loop was isolated from the trunk line. 

I think that unless you regularly run straight track power as well, you'll find yourself not caring about how dirty the track becomes, and start relying on the batteries for longer and longer periods of time. With 2300mAh of power, you'll get 2, 3 hours of run time on the batteries anyway, so you can just sit your train on the charge track when not running, and enjoy wire-free battery power when you do run. 

Later, 

K


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 04/13/2009 11:57 AM
...NiMH batteries do not hold a charge over long periods of non-use (a few days), so when you go to run your trains, you'll likely have very little "in reserve." 




Just a comment on this Kevin: I personally have not experienced any major problems with NiMh batteries discharging while sitting idle. Yes, mine do, but it is minimal. I do run fairly often, but with the various equipment I have, sometimes the loco/critter may have been sitting around for easily over a month. I have had trains sit in my train shed all winter long (perhaps 8-10 weeks at least) and still run just fine, but not as long of course. They certainly aren't fully discharged. I use 10 cell AA packs (12V, 1500mah) and 12 cell 4/3A packs (14.4V,4000mah). I never have to charge a battery prior to running. I always charge after running and park it till the next time it is called into service. The only exception is an open house. I charge prior, just to make sure I get maximum run times from everything.


I just don't want to discourage others from using NiMh batteries.


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 04/13/2009 1:42 PM
Posted By East Broad Top on 04/13/2009 11:57 AM
...NiMH batteries do not hold a charge over long periods of non-use (a few days), so when you go to run your trains, you'll likely have very little "in reserve." 




Just a comment on this Kevin: I personally have not experienced any major problems with NiMh batteries discharging while sitting idle. Yes, mine do, but it is minimal. I do run fairly often, but with the various equipment I have, sometimes the loco/critter may have been sitting around for easily over a month. I have had trains sit in my train shed all winter long (perhaps 8-10 weeks at least) and still run just fine, but not as long of course. They certainly aren't fully discharged. I use 10 cell AA packs (12V, 1500mah) and 12 cell 4/3A packs (14.4V,4000mah). I never have to charge a battery prior to running. I always charge after running and park it till the next time it is called into service. The only exception is an open house. I charge prior, just to make sure I get maximum run times from everything.


I just don't want to discourage others from using NiMh batteries. 




I too have had excellent service from NiMH batteries. During winter months I recharge once every 3 months to keep up their charge even though they still can power the lokies for 2 or more hours even after sitting for that time. Normally I get 4 hours of operation time on my C-16's. Of course extra long and heavy trains or grades would reduce that but that's also true for fuel and water on a real steam loco. My normal train is 6 to 10 cars just for reference.

One thing that hurts battery holding power is to store them in a damp place, especially on a cement floor. My batteries are usually kept right in the locomotive tenders and the locomotives are kept on dry wooden shelves. The present crop of NiMH batteries (in 14.4 volt packs) have been in service since 2004-5, thus far without failure. They are 1800 mh which was fairly good when they were purchased in 2004.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks guys, 

I'm planing on only the #6 wye being dead, my locos barely draw an amp, so I figure I can use track power (18v) to light buildings and such. Neither loco has a front coupler. With facing points on the loop track, a reverse loop or wye became a necessity. I converted the switch to a simple flop over spring switch and won't have to worry about Mr. Polk's cheap reed switch underneath. 
Also in the plan is a covered engine house storage shed safe. Javalina proof. Anchored to the ground and lockable. It will house the power pack too, so having a charging track protected from the eliments is in the works too. The tracks will be off the ground on wood. 

John 

I'm advised it takes 5 hours on full power track to charge them. I did charge them in a wall charger prior to assembling them. Tested to full power a week later.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Which batteries are y'all using, because I'd sure like to get better long-term storage. My usual batch of individual cell AAs is horrendous at maintaining a charge. I've got a mixture of brands, mostly Radio Shack and Energizer, with some other random ones thrown in I get on sale from time to time. My thought process in this whole thing was to go with individual cells in removable holders, as I have myriad things (cameras, daughter's toys, baby monitors, etc.) that can use the batteries in the "off season." After two days off the charger, they're worthless. Here's the weird thing, though. I can put those batteries in the baby monitor, they're good for 4 days. I don't get it. 

I've just gotten used to keeping a set topped off on the charger for when I want to run. Be nice to not to have to do that... 

Later, 

K


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

The guys at IPTrains sent me:Tenergy 2300 mAh AA Ni-MH, these come with tabs if building your own pack. I have 14 per loco. 

Old Battery Wisdom; NEVER mix and match. All should be same age and size (x aHm). 

Your weakest one will bring the others down to it's capacity and life span. 

Some things it's better to buy quality and anything I stick in a boiler had better be good! Wrong place to be frugal. Baby monitor doesn't have 'em in series does it? That's the diff. 

John 


Hmm if you charged from the track ...... lol


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

My batteries have come from at least 3 different sources:


Idividual Cells to build your own packs at batterystation.com



14.4V packs at batteryspace.com


http://www.superdroidrobots.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=793&catid=10Low cost 12V packs at superdroidrobots.com


and of late I have been buying Lithium-Ion battery packs at

Lithium Ion at all-battery.com


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I thought you'd want to know; the lights are NOT rated at 24 let alone 18 volts...16.8v burned them out very quickly. I hope the kids don't notice tomorrow.

I should have double checked.... after learning about your bat knowledge...

I know you meant well...

John


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

John, I'm sorry you burned out your bulbs. I would think that those bulbs should be rated at much lower than 24 volts. If they were 24 volt bulbs they would never reach full brightness until you are travelling at top speed. I would guess they are rated at some lower voltage (no idea what that is) with a voltage regulator in the engine somewhere limiting the voltage to that value. That way you have bright headlights at varying speeds. It is just that I have no idea what that voltage is, or where the voltage regulator is located.

Ed


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I put a 14v regulator in the tender and run the loco accessories from that. The dallee sound board didn't like the 24v my batteries put out fresh off the charger and I happened to have a 14v regulator laying around.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Well I think I've solved the question... with the aid of my optivisors and a backlight I found out that the voltage was 5 volts from a rectifier, but I removed that card. They were probably rated at 6 volts and under powered for life. 

My 20 mile away local hobby shop only had 12 v grains of wheat and rice. So though I hate lamps in series that's my solution for too much voltage, 2 markers and headlamp /firebox glow; seriesed then parallel'd to hotleads. The other way is off the speed controller, but I like constant brightness and I did add a on/off to the circuit. 

The first charge of the 14 AA NiMH bats is reading near 20 volts.... they sure were brite! Then I entered the dark side...lol I charged them 4 at a time in wall chargers before assembly, had to make bent wire adapters, no + bumps to charge. My sound system was modified to handle higher voltages so that's ok. I suspect that pack charging won't be as efficient so I should be running under 18 volts. 

OK break is over I've got some soldering to do. 

Later, 
John


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I think you want to put a regulator to run those lights.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Lotsa of things I'd like to do.... 

I only entered this project because everything came with instructions... up to a point Always an odd duck, too often I let my massive craniumgoop make things harder than for others... I'm using on board bats and track power to recharge, w R/c, and run my other loco until it's converted too. 

they above "sure were brite" was the old bulbs before they left. I am well under 24 v that the bulbs are rated in series. May make changes later, but today I've got visitors coming to see a 'promise' that next time would be better! 

Haven't had a chance yet to police the tracks! 

John


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Instructions never quite work for me either









Just today: 

Step 1: Add the Activate Nettalk Extension and the Web Server Extension. 

Ok, there's the Activate extension, but where's the Web Server Extension? 

(And people wonder why software takes so long.)


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Well I guess I should have thought out my solution a tad better.... batteries don't have the amps tp push he loco, sound and 2 pairs of 12 v bulbs wired in series! Though dim they drew more than their fair share... When she passed her mortal coil on the tracks I figured a wire had melted to a rectifier, but upon inspection no damage was found. 

Half a day later the light bulb goes on and I see the problem above..... guess I need to learn about regulators and resistors. 

Anybody got a link to shove me in the right direction? 

John


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

John - Earlier in this post you stated you had 14 NiMh cells? If that is the case you should be getting at least 16.8V, which I would think should be enough. How much voltage does it take to run it on track power? With that track power / battery power setup you are trying to use, It is critical to match the track voltage to the battery voltage, or it isn't going to work (at least not very well). What is your track voltage set for and what is your battery voltage?

If you want a shove in the right direction, just choose one: track power or battery power. This lash-up of yours just makes it terribly complicated for a first conversion.

If you think you are having problems with the RailBoss, please feel free to contact me offline.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Actually though it contains a few more wires, 90% of the battery system was pre-wired and the schematic easy to follow. For the replacement lights I ran 2 12 v gor bulbs in series, one pair for markers and the other for headlamp and firebox (painted red)the pairs were attached paralell. Do not the the pairs in series and paralell add up to 24 v of draw? Be kind, I'm 40 years out of highschool electronics101.... 

The symptoms; ran fine on battery alone, then brought out power for other yet to be converted loco. Aristo 10 amp 18 v Ultima w rheostat. Parked C-16 on live track and ran other loco. This included starting and stopping, I wondered if I burned a short memory in the bats? Designed for constant full power.... trickle charge. The bats suppliment track power as needed, dirty track and dead zones 

Now on both track and supplimental bat power all sysytems lights, sound and Railboss worked fine, reverse was sticky, then the sound distorted and soon the motor shut down and the sound picked up before dying. I'm usinng an optical triggered canned sound card that was modified to accept max 18 v input. Originally designed to run on a 9v battery. Does a larger rectifier/regulator draw more power than it provides? 

I wasn't aware of the need to match track and bat charger, though I did tell the guys the kind of locos and power I have. Y'know I never asked if I could mix and run at the same time, varying the voltages. I know 'those guys' run all bat all power. I bet my problem is related to that bat abuse. 

Sorry I didn't measure draw before cutting the board out of the tender and hi-jacking plug wires... 

I will be gluing those trim tabs soon, noticed my thumbs on them. 

I was in a rush... had promised the trainbrain kid a 'better' show the next time he was in town, the last time I only brought out 1 train, so Saturday I brought both out. Then my troubles began... distracted the 4-4-0 does a sliding reverse! Fortunately that section was 'cleaned' with snake oil...er smoke oil a few hours earlier. I get an evil cousin off the controls.... Hmmm if I split the 2 seven packs; 1 to motor and 1 to acces.that would limit the speed! Heart Attack! My trains are not Go Fast Toys! 

The boys are welcome back, but their grandpa, my brother-in-law must be replaced by a responsible adult! Yeah right! He's a multi-millionair and I'm closer to an ex hippie! He watched them and chuckled! 

I have another set of batteries, I'll charge them and assemble and replace them and see if I did screw up by using the rheo. 

Thanks for the off list offer, but I don't think that's it. Is there any way to measure the amps left in a battery? What I think I mean is; is it possible to have 16.8 v and little push behind it? See? those mHa things.... My volt-O-meter doesn't have an 18v chart, but I think that's what it showed...18v full charge. They were charged in 4's in a wall charger before assmbly. 

Yes I know I bit off a lot, but I'm not giving up this easy. I'm learning a lot as I go (with everybody's gracious help). Today I learned a variable power supply isn't good. The consequences will be the next lesson! 

Thanks, 
John


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Let's walk before we run; i.e. get one loco working completely and understand what is going on before you try running multiple locos with apparently different power supplies? I really didn't follow all of that. Sorry.

Let's start with this track power / battery deal. It is a "high signal select" system. Whichever voltage is higher, the track or the battery, that's the one that will supply the power. Let's say you have 24V track power and a 16.8V battery pack. The control system will be running on 24V at perhaps 50% throttle. The motor will then be seeing 12V (50% of 24V) with a corresponding speed. Now you hit dirty or dead track ... The battery takes over at 16.8V, still @ 50% throttle, so now you have 8.4V (50% of 16.8V) to the motor, and a very significant drop in speed. So, if you set the track voltage to just slightly above the battery voltage, you won't have any significant speed changes during the transfer, and you will be running on track power the majority of the time. This is just another pain in the rear for this system unless there is an LED or something to tell when voltages are matched. Voltage matching level won't always be the same. It will depend on the charge state of the batteries. But if you don't mind the speed changes, in theory, it should get you through the rough spots.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Del, 
As you know I have 2 locos to convert. I rushed to get one done and the other on hold til I get the first one right. To keep a promise to a grand nephew from 3 states away I put both trains on the track. Only planning on running one at a time. I only have a circle with 2 inner spurs and a long passing siding. I have acquired track and switches for an out side the loop out and back reverse loop that battery power makes simple... but it's not ready. 
I thought the battery one would be ok because the bats were fully charged and I assumed that they would cover the track powered loco's need to reduce track power. As I understand it now... I was wrong. This was a temporary solution and not the desired state of running, I will most likely remove the rheostat as the powerpack is rated at 18v and the bats at 16.8. I will never run them at full power so at 50% it would be 9 and 8.4v not nuch of a speed bump. Yet if it matters I'd try to step down the output via circuit than a handle that can be bumped. I let the kids run at about 60% power (never again!). I'll be lower about 40% to watch the cars sway. 

Will it be much of a problem if they (locos) have diff sized bat packs? Or if I have to do half and half tender/loco? I haven't looked at the American's boiler / motor block yet. 

I picked the Railboss so the passeger train can run the loop and make programmed station stops hands free. The freight train will use the passing siding and rv loop to work the inner spurs with facing points while dodging the other, hands on. 

Sorry about the ramble above, some have suggested On 'n On Anonymous... 

John


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