# Lionel GP-20 A tragic mess in the works. (AKA FrankenLionel )



## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

I just purchased this heavy damaged Lionel GP-20 in hopes of restoring it. However i see now its beyond restoration.
It has USA trains bogies (GP 38 i believe) and body mounted Kadee couplers. The body and frame are damaged from a fall. and the fame has been "modified"
I guess i will pursue a custom build over a restoration.
So this is the next project. I'll be starting this in a couple weeks time.

















My "GOAL" would be something like this Burlington route GP-20
(minus the smoke stack  )









Gonna have to bone up on my plastic welding knowledge


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like you don't have much to start with, but I'm sure you will prevail. Keep us posted. Chuck posted a good 'welding' product a couple of items back you may want to try.


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

Pirate what you can off of the old model that is useful. You have so many options to make the unusual Geep units that certain railroads are known for. GP8, GP9, GP10, GP12, GP15. Paducah rebuilt a number of Geeps into useful individuals found on shortlines all over the US. Burlington Northern ran a number of interesting units back in the 70s until the merger with the ATSF.


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## trainmanfw&sw (Nov 4, 2020)

Being a modeler I would like to find more models in that condition for re-building. I hope you didn't pay too much for it, I would say somewhere around $40-$50 dollars would be about my max for it and it would have to be in good running condition, that is the trucks and motors are working. I would say if you are not into modeling, don't start working on it and make it worse then it already is, you can do more damage then can be repaired. It looks like JB Weld the 5 min. stuff would be the best for repairing the cracks, it is sand able so doing small areas and working into the larger areas would be the way to go. Don't try to glue all those cracks at one time, you will never get it to look good. I've never had a Lionel G Scale engine, or rolling stock, but there all pretty much the same when it comes to working on them, I pretty much just stick with LGB, or USA Trains. Good Luck, skills in modeling come with time and many hours of just doing it to get the results you want, more hours into a project the better the results. I would say that looks like a 20-30 hour project including paint and the model repair. 

trainman .


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

If those are USA motor blocks, they have quite a bit of value. The lousy Lionel motor blocks that come with the stock model are oversize anyway. Will you share what you paid for the loco?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, I took your smokestack off!

If there are that many cracks, I would worry that all the plastic is brittle, and will continue to come apart.

Good Luck!

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Well, I took your smokestack off!
> 
> If there are that many cracks, I would worry that all the plastic is brittle, and will continue to come apart.
> 
> ...


HAHAH thank You!


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Paul Burch said:


> If those are USA motor blocks, they have quite a bit of value. The lousy Lionel motor blocks that come with the stock model are oversize anyway. Will you share what you paid for the loco?


too much.. i got antsy and jumped on it


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Scott said:


> Pirate what you can off of the old model that is useful. You have so many options to make the unusual Geep units that certain railroads are known for. GP8, GP9, GP10, GP12, GP15. Paducah rebuilt a number of Geeps into useful individuals found on shortlines all over the US. Burlington Northern ran a number of interesting units back in the 70s until the merger with the ATSF.


Yep a Gp10 might be an interesting project


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

I like the look of that. GP9u? or GP10? As both had that large crossways vent giving it that shoulder appearance. I used to model Santa Fe, then BNSF up until large scale called me.


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## trainmanfw&sw (Nov 4, 2020)

I re-due just about every G Scale engine and piece of rolling stock item that I own to my personal railroad name, the Fort Worth & South-Western. Here is an LGB 2055 White Pass Alco that has had some body changes and repainted to the FW&SW, then RailPro battery powered system installed.
trainman


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

The graphics on this engine are actually very nicely done. I would leave it but im not a fan of that line.
The engine definitely sits too high and is unbalanced with most of the weight being toward the rear.









And apparently it has a operating fan in the rear. I'm eager to open this engine up!


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

Fresh challenges, lets start this journey and see where it takes this engine.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are a couple photos of Lionel conversions I did around 1997. Long since sold, after I decided on 1/29 instead of 1/32.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Paul Burch said:


> Here are a couple photos of Lionel conversions I did around 1997. Long since sold, after I decided on 1/29 instead of 1/32.


Awesome work and mods. very sharp paint and graphics


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Noob, if you check out my postings of the A-1-A shark, you can make that fan an operating eye catching feature with a little 3V, 100 rpm motor. 
EDIT: OOPs, just noticed you did mention it was an operating feature, sorry.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Nick Jr said:


> Noob, if you check out my postings of the A-1-A shark, you can make that fan an operating eye catching feature with a little 3V, 100 rpm motor.
> EDIT: OOPs, just noticed you did mention it was an operating feature, sorry.


Yep your A-1-A shark nose is an amazing build, im definitely following it.
Im not sure yet if the fan is actually a "operating fan" it moves and i can see wires .. but i have not done a track power test yet due to the extensive damage to the engine, im going to open it first


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

Those Lionel units look a treat! Very nicely modelled.


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## trainmanfw&sw (Nov 4, 2020)

What scale do the Lionel units scale out to be, are they 1/32, 1/29, 1/24, or 1/22.5 LGB scale

trainman


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

trainmanfw&sw said:


> What scale do the Lionel units scale out to be, are they 1/32, 1/29, 1/24, or 1/22.5 LGB scale
> 
> trainman


Supposedly the Lionels are One gauge ,1:32 like the MTH. But Sadly Lionel has abandoned detailed One Gauge engines long ago. And their 1/32 rolling stock , MDC, Lionel and now Piko was nice but a bit short. Although still very affordable compared to MTH and AMS


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## trainmanfw&sw (Nov 4, 2020)

Thanks for that info, all my G gauge is LGB engines and rolling stock, I do have some USA Trains rolling stock, wood reefers and wood box cars which are compatible to LGB scale. I would like to have a USA Train diesel engine or two, but do to there 1/29 scale they are under scale for my liking. I guess you could say LGB 1/22.5 scale is a dead scale as there is not much in production today in that scale, probably the Fn3 scale 1/20.3 scale would be a better fit for me, but since the Fn3 scale is mostly steam and I'm pretty much diesel at this time, Do note here, I also have an HOn3 layout, so I still model in steam. 

trainman


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Well, the frame is busted beyond repair, so i am going to have to make a steel subframe to provide support and recess the motor blocks a bit.









Into the crucible it goes!


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Curious how it got so banged up, did you find out if the fan was powered? thank you.


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## trainmanfw&sw (Nov 4, 2020)

I guess I just don't see that much damage, let me ask this question and don't take it serous, just an honest answer, is it beyond you skill level to repair this engine. If it is that's understandable as we all have limits to our ability to repair and do things. I guess what I'm saying is I really hate to see the frame and body being torn apart and replace with something else that may, or may not work. I wish you luck on your project, I hope it turns out well.

trainman


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Nick Jr said:


> Curious how it got so banged up, did you find out if the fan was powered? thank you.


no sadly the fan was unpowwered. As far as the damage , im guessing the engine weighs around 11 lbs and seems to of been dropped from a height greater than 4ft . The type of cracks in the plastic seem to indicate that the plastic was cold when it hit.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

trainmanfw&sw said:


> I guess I just don't see that much damage, let me ask this question and don't take it serous, just an honest answer, is it beyond you skill level to repair this engine. If it is that's understandable as we all have limits to our ability to repair and do things. I guess what I'm saying is I really hate to see the frame and body being torn apart and replace with something else that may, or may not work. I wish you luck on your project, I hope it turns out well.
> 
> trainman


Good Points.
The damage to the frame includes complete breaks throughout and missing sections in areas around the bogie swivel supports . Just welding the plastic will not, in my opinion, be a strong enough solution. The metal frame upgrade will be much sturdier and allow the engine to sit lower over the motor blocks which will give it a more scale appearance.
IF the motor blocks were original lionel blocks i would seriously try to save the frame,, but the blocks are USA trains GP38II blocks that, when attached to the lionel stock mounting points, raises the engine far too high. Possibly one of the reasons it toppled, but im guessing on that.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

This was inside of the engine, but not really connected to anything.
LGB American Diesel sounds








I may try to keep this and get it working.
From my research these things run about a hundred dollars even used.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like you got some things to work with, would like to watch your progress.
EDIT; adds additional meaning to the phrase 'kit BASH'.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Inspecting the USA trains Bogies. Some of the details are broken off or missing. However i think i can fabricate the missing parts.










While inspecting the motor blocks i found poor conductivity from one of the axles. It appears that the wire pickups have worn through. But that a easy fix i have a lot of spring wire.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Any cracks in the plastic axle bushings? Very common failure in those trucks.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Paul Burch said:


> Any cracks in the plastic axle bushings? Very common failure in those trucks.


I visibly did not see any... however that doesn't mean they are not there though.
I am thinking of doing the brass tube fix on the gears anyway.
The bushings on the bogie sides are badly worn though.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, it's more likely that those whiskers were burned through during a derailment... the ends look blued.... When there is a short through the wheels (like derailing on a switch), that contact area is so small that it overheats the wire there, and at least softens it, if not burns through.

But it does not really matter, they need replacing. Is power still being picked up at the axle tips? It's important not to rely on the whiskers only for power pickup, especially if you are not using the skates.

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Actually, it's more likely that those whiskers were burned through during a derailment... the ends look blued.... When there is a short through the wheels (like derailing on a switch), that contact area is so small that it overheats the wire there, and at least softens it, if not burns through.
> 
> But it does not really matter, they need replacing. Is power still being picked up at the axle tips? It's important not to rely on the whiskers only for power pickup, especially if you are not using the skates.
> 
> Greg


Yes power is still being picked up on the axle tips, but they are so worn that the MM showed voltage drops on that axle. 
im replcing the wire pickups with a bit thicker leaf spring wires that are from my printer and copier supplies, they are designed for continues use. 
i actually do have oil impregnated bronze bushings but they cant be soldered to so i would have to add a washer to solder to.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

you can get the replacement journal bearings/bushings from USA trains, the better fit will help conductivity.

cheap guy tip: if you look at those bushings in the side frames, they will be worn on one side only (because the weight of the loco is supported by the axle tips.

You can use a pair of pliers to rotate the bushings 90 degrees (or at least 180 degrees) and it's like having a new bearing.

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> you can get the replacement journal bearings/bushings from USA trains, the better fit will help conductivity.
> 
> cheap guy tip: if you look at those bushings in the side frames, they will be worn on one side only (because the weight of the loco is supported by the axle tips.
> 
> ...


Great tips! Thank You.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Maybe i should send the parts to these guys


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Noob, USA Trains has complete side frames with bushings, very reasonable price if you are so inclined. Looks like that loco has been 'around the belt and through the buckle'. Bluing on the pick ups could also be from normal arching after they wore down, great idea using wipers in place of just spring wire.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Get some phosphor bronze strip, a bit wider, more contact area. The whiskers are a weak point.

If you look at the Piko parts store, you will see that is what they use.



https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1960/4221/products/36111_1024x1024.png?v=1522967945



Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Get some phosphor bronze strip, a bit wider, more contact area. The whiskers are a weak point.

If you look at the Piko parts store, you will see that is what they use.



https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1960/4221/products/36111_1024x1024.png?v=1522967945



note: you can't go quite that wide, not that much room, but I bet you could buy these and modify them easily

Greg


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Noob, second thought: first check if you have the room to add wipers. Some wheel axle assemblies do have side to side play on curves.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Not perfect but it shouldn't be too noticeable once its painted.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I would say this loco is in the right hands.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Well that's the bad one on the body.. The other cracks are easy welds,, but i might have to put some rebar in this big crack.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

The new frame is complete. Here it is temporarily assembled.










Here is the height before with the old frame










Now with the New frame.








A little better.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You are getting quite clever with your frame design to allow the right height of the loco!

Greg


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

The metal frame will add plenty of weight for traction. Like it much better than my wood frame, beyond my capabilities.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

I really don't like the black as much... but,, it would be SOOOO much easier to paint.
What do you think?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The only 2 modern diesels I have are that roadname.... SD45 high nose, and Dash 9.

go for it!

Greg


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Depending on your era-----


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Frame 2.0 A little stronger. A little heavier.









This is as low as i can get it and still maintain a little rocking motion in the USA trains bogies.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

I was able to repair the little LGB sound card. I had to reflow a couple of spots and run a trace at the potentiometer as one of the pins was broken, and the LGB speaker was not working for some reason. Anyway it works now.. and while it doesn't sound great... it's a definite plus being that it pays for the whole wreck and with the USA motor blocks I could of parted it out and profited by it... but. this is a challenge.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

the prototype weighed 240,000 pounds. Since this is a 1:32, a scale weight would be 7.32 pounds, just FYI.... I see a fair amount of weight there. It should pull like nobody's business!

Greg


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I have also found a GP9 which someone had dismantled but couldn't reassemble for dirt cheap on evil bay. The only part that was missing was one handrail post and perhaps some electronics, which I didn't want to use anyways. I redetailed it with scale size handrails and grabs, screwed the pilots to the body and kadees . Fitted it with NWSL wheelsets on the original Lionel 4 motor blocks. It works fine, but is a real ampere eater (draws near 4 amps) so I may remotor it with coreless motors. Right now I am using it to test the current distribution on my new layout as it is so greedy with the amps. It fits my theme as the most modern power as my modeling period terminates with the end of steam in 1957 on PRR and is 1/32 scale. The trucks are with an extended wheelbase of 9' rather than 8' but next to my MTH F3 its hardly noticeable. Since that photo I also placed the number boards flush into the recess.
Happy new year!
Simon


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

du-bousquetaire said:


> I have also found a GP9 which someone had dismantled but couldn't reassemble for dirt cheap on evil bay. The only part that was missing was one handrail post and perhaps some electronics, which I didn't want to use anyways. I redetailed it with scale size handrails and grabs, screwed the pilots to the body and kadees . Fitted it with NWSL wheelsets on the original Lionel 4 motor blocks. It works fine, but is a real ampere eater (draws near 4 amps) so I may remotor it with coreless motors. Right now I am using it to test the current distribution on my new layout as it is so greedy with the amps. It fits my theme as the most modern power as my modeling period terminates with the end of steam in 1957 on PRR and is 1/32 scale. The trucks are with an extended wheelbase of 9' rather than 8' but next to my MTH F3 its hardly noticeable. Since that photo I also placed the number boards flush into the recess.
> Happy new year!
> Simon


Yep . And the carbon brushed pickups are also great for finding conductively problemed areas in the rail. I added wipers to mine in addition to the brushes.
They are great pullers though.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> the prototype weighed 240,000 pounds. Since this is a 1:32, a scale weight would be 7.32 pounds, just FYI.... I see a fair amount of weight there. It should pull like nobody's business!
> 
> Greg


Yes indeed. Even so, its still a couple pounds lighter than the stock Lionel 4 motor engine.
Looking back at the original setup.. it had the Lionel 6 lb lead ballast and was set way too high and loosely on the USA blocks.
I bet it was that high center of gravity and loosely fitting blocks that lead to its toppling crash. but im guessing on that.

The wiring will be better when complete


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree on the center of gravity comment, for sure.

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Ive finally narrowed it down to two Liveries to dress it in.. But i caan't make up my mind.
I really like the SF but i would have to fabricate a new tank. 
The NS would be the easiest of all as i have that road number already and its black and it has the short hall tank.


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## trainmanfw&sw (Nov 4, 2020)

Since I do a lot of re-dues the hardest part of a re-due is finding the correct G scale decals. Microscale and other have just about discounted G scale decals, I know you can have them special made, but the cost is getting in the $50.00 range, which is not beyond my limit, but it is getting to where does commonsense stops and stupid starts. Being a modeler first and a train runner second it getting to the point where I have to pick my projects differently then what I did in the past, just because the cost does not out weigh the final results and personal satisfaction like it did at one time. All being said, I still have some pretty pricey re-dues.

trainman


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## trainmanfw&sw (Nov 4, 2020)

Many times it might be easier to re-cover the old tank and make it larger with plastic then totally build a new one from scratch, thus the mounting places for the tank are still in place.

trainman


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## nscaler711 (Dec 4, 2015)

As a fan of the Santa Fe, I'd definitely choose the Santa Fe.
But maybe go the route of a "Paducah" Cab GP7u, since your dynamic brake blister looked to be destroyed beyond repair.
Also has the shorter fuel tank.














ATSF 2055 & 2237 (Hayford)


ATSF 2055 & 2237 (Hayford)



www.rrpicturearchives.net


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

nscaler711 said:


> As a fan of the Santa Fe, I'd definitely choose the Santa Fe.
> But maybe go the route of a "Paducah" Cab GP7u, since your dynamic brake blister looked to be destroyed beyond repair.
> Also has the shorter fuel tank.
> 
> ...


Thats a good shot.. I have a GP9 I think i will use the SF scheme for it and convert it to a GP9u


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

trainmanfw&sw said:


> Many times it might be easier to re-cover the old tank and make it larger with plastic then totally build a new one from scratch, thus the mounting places for the tank are still in place.
> 
> trainman


the Lionel's tanks are molded to their frame. so i had to cut the tank out of the old frame. Looks like i'm going to have to create mounting tabs


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Old Noob,
I think the Lionel GP20 represents a phase II locomotive. The photo you posted of Santa Fe 3069 has holes in the side sill making it a phase I. . The NS photo has no holes in the side sill making it a phase II. As far as I can tell all Santa Fe GP20's were all phase I. Might help in your decision


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Well the LGB speaker was just dead could not get it to work,, and this 3" 0.5w was the only speaker i had,, so i had to mod the tank a bit to get everything to work. On the plus side i wont have to take the shell off to work on the sound in the future.
I added a directional switch so that the engine will play nice with other engines. The side skirt just does hang over it so it is not seen








If i decide to add a capacitor bank later .. it might get a bit hairy


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

I am a lifetime Santa Fe lover. It's your loco paint it how you want.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Well these pilots have been badly mutilated. I'm not sure i can repair them.
They were either superglued or liquid welded to the frame and cut rather inconsistently. I had a bear of a time separating them from the frame.
I would like to figure out a way to reattach them to the bogies like the original Lionel's were as that is more practical for narrow turns. but that may not happen.
im going to have to stare at them a while until inspiration hits.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

This main crack was a bit too large for plastic weld so i decided to do the old tried and true rebar trick.









It melted in and covered nicely










And just for a bit of insurance, i reinforced the whole side









I'm not sure who "RW" is , possibly the person i bought it from.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

trainmanfw&sw said:


> Since I do a lot of re-dues the hardest part of a re-due is finding the correct G scale decals. Microscale and other have just about discounted G scale decals, I know you can have them special made, but the cost is getting in the $50.00 range, which is not beyond my limit, but it is getting to where does commonsense stops and stupid starts. Being a modeler first and a train runner second it getting to the point where I have to pick my projects differently then what I did in the past, just because the cost does not out weigh the final results and personal satisfaction like it did at one time. All being said, I still have some pretty pricey re-dues.
> 
> trainman


So true, the cost of decals in G scale is ridiculous 
Conversely I found some white waterslide decal paper for about 6 dollars.. it's O..K however it takes some getting used to and can be tricky. With the NS scheme its possible i can tape off most of it.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Not accurate ... but i think it will look better than it did.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Noob, like what I am watching, great progress.


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

Ok.... ya gotta talk about the rebar process more and how you melted that in. That looks quite interesting.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

ewarhol said:


> Ok.... ya gotta talk about the rebar process more and how you melted that in. That looks quite interesting.


Cut a metal wire to the desired size and shape, or use a staple for smaller projects. Set the plastic on a cold metal surface like a saw table. put the wire over the crack where you want it. then take a soldering iron and gently press on the wire until it melts down into the plastic at or just below the surface. Then let everything cool down.
Once the plastic is cool again go back with the soldering iron with a large flat tip ad wipe the plastic over the wire to cover it and then let it cool again. Once its cool sand the rough area down smooth again if so desired. ( setting the plastic on a cold metal surface while doing this is super important as it helps prevent the visible or outward side from distorting )


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

Very interesting. Thanks for the tip!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I assume you "wipe" the soldering iron over the wire (I'm guessing steel) to distribute the heat?

Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

OldNoob, name?

The "REBAR" idea is great!. Please share how your bonding the shell and your reinforcement patch. I've had mixed results herein.

Michael


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I assume you "wipe" the soldering iron over the wire (I'm guessing steel) to distribute the heat?
> 
> Greg


Yep that's a tricky part. because one end can pop up while you are melting the other end in.
One could use brass wire but i find that the brass is too flexible.
Something that works is placing a piece of brass over the wire that helps disperse the heat from the iron evenly over the steel wire.

P.S. Recognize that second fan Greg??


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Gloss black is an excellent tool for finding those flaws you thought you fixed but apparently not.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Noob, do like your 're-bar' repair. And yes, priming does bring out flaws I thought I fixed. Glad to do that so the finished product is as good as possible. Great project.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Well ... that just happened.








I really cant justify it except to say , that full window reminded me too much of an Alco


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Missed the question, that second fan looks like the inlet to a hair dryer or a heat gun, but I'm most likely wrong.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Missed the question, that second fan looks like the inlet to a hair dryer or a heat gun, but I'm most likely wrong.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

HAH! Quite clever...


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

I'm committed now...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I heard you were committed some time ago!


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I heard you were committed some time ago!


That was just a misunderstanding.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Well , not perfect but will do.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Wait....That's not NS black?


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Back to S.F. phase I?


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Question... The pilot.. Blue or black??? i can't tell on this engine from this photograph. Can anyone tell which color that is on the front? It kinda looks like black.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

santa fe railroad gp20 pilot paint color - Bing images

santa fe railroad gp20 pilot paint color - Bing


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is the modified pilot on my GP40. Very close in looks to a GP20. I went with black but with weathering its hard to tell blue from black. I also went with the front steps removed which required the cut lever to have the handles. I think it was sometime in the 70's that the FRA outlawed the steps???


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Paul Burch said:


> santa fe railroad gp20 pilot paint color - Bing images
> 
> santa fe railroad gp20 pilot paint color - Bing


Thank You Paul. Very Helpful

P.S i really like the way Bing displays the images. will have to try that now.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is one on Ebay. HO, but good photos for reference. Early style with pilot steps.
Santa Fe GP20 Road #1132 Proto 2000 w/factory QSI Sound / Run decoder ATSF | eBay


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Hope this works.. really dont have 50 bucks to spend on decals.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Did you apply tape and then cut out by hand? How did you do this? Looks pretty good from here.

Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
My guess is he printed it on the tape then cut out the letters after sticking to loco. He like teasing us. He also has cut out the area for the S.F. yellow to the right of the letters.


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

Fingers crossed mate


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Did you apply tape and then cut out by hand? How did you do this? Looks pretty good from here.
> 
> Greg


Took a photo of the Logo , tried to scale it properly and then printed it on to a transparent self adhesive sheet or label paper. Once positioned on top of the masking tape i cut out the letters with an xacto knife. The complex curve at the front is a bit of a guess.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Question... Are the outside brakes on these engines missing???
Or is it just an optical illusion?


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Probably Bloomburg M version trucks instead of the earlier B version.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Paul Burch said:


> Probably Bloomburg M version trucks instead of the earlier B version.


Thank you that was super helpful.
Probably something i should of already known, but im still learning and now these days relearning.








Blomberg B - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## trainmanfw&sw (Nov 4, 2020)

I own a Resistance Soldering Set, not cheap, but it works somewhat like welding, pretty much and instant solder joint. That's how they solder on brass engines, etc. 

trainman


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

O.K...2 things i am having to relearn from the school of hard knocks.
#1 Don't use "Farm Implement" spray paint..
#2 ( and this is probably more important) Paint the light colors FIRST so that you dont have to use as many coats and the edges of your light colors start looking like Vinyl that's ready to peal off.
Lets pray that clear coat does miracles .


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## trainmanfw&sw (Nov 4, 2020)

As a model painter I think you are doing a great job, it does take skill to tape off a model correctly and you are correct in painting the light colors first, many times when painting yellow I will paint the model white first, yellow is a hard color to cover in thin coats, or use white primer depending on the model. I hope you plan to use a dullcoat clear finish coat, it makes the model just stand out and gives it the rich look. The blue color looks like about the correct sheen I would want. I will say one thing when you first posted this article I thought it was more work then you wanted to do, or could do, but you proved me wrong, your a pretty good modeler, most couldn't do what you are doing and get the results your getting. Here are two tractor sprinklers that my neighbor thru in the trash, bless his heart, he can't fix anything. Yes, that's John Deere green in the spray can, now there too nice to use.
















trainman


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Not in any way accurate,,, but i think they look better than the condition they were in.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Noob, from what I just read, Farm Implement paint is made primarily for equipment that is kept and used outdoors, so your loco will probably not fade or oxidize, good choice. Is maybe the spray a little heavy for model use?? From what I see in the pics. GREAT JOB


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

You can still get Scalecoat paint from this source. https://www.minutemanscalemodels.com/default.asp
I would stay with Scalecoat for any clear overcoat to prevent crinkling of paint. Scalecoat II is for plastics.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Ok so done repairing the pilots.
They are in no way anywhere near accurate, but i have to think about giving the coupler room to move for R2 curves as these pilots will be affixed to the frame and not the bogies.









before









P.S if you ever have a old ink jet printer die on you don't throw it out, the body panel are styrene plastic and contain a lot of usable shapes. And the old printers are also full of 30v motors.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Paul Burch said:


> You can still get Scalecoat paint from this source. https://www.minutemanscalemodels.com/default.asp
> I would stay with Scalecoat for any clear overcoat to prevent crinkling of paint. Scalecoat II is for plastics.


Thank You for the link!


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Nick Jr said:


> Noob, from what I just read, Farm Implement paint is made primarily for equipment that is kept and used outdoors, so your loco will probably not fade or oxidize, good choice. Is maybe the spray a little heavy for model use?? From what I see in the pics. GREAT JOB


Thank You!


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

What kind of couplers do you use?


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Paul Burch said:


> What kind of couplers do you use?


Well it came with some little Kaydee couplers. but i put those on the GP35 because it is so small. 
I will be using some modified Lionel couplers on this model.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

It probably had Kadee #1 scale couplers since it is a 1/32 loco.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Well,, that just happened. Now i have to do it three more times.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks good. Did you also add the brake line or had someone else already done it.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Paul Burch said:


> Looks good. Did you also add the brake line or had someone else already done it.


Yes i added the brake lines, but i had to redo them as i noticed they were a bit more curved on the prototype.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

"... step by step ... inch by inch... "


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the only time I have seen the curved line is on the three axle truck????
Only one brake cylinder on the M truck???


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Paul Burch said:


> I think the only time I have seen the curved line is on the three axle truck????
> Only one brake cylinder on the M truck???


For lack of better images.. I'm trying to base it off these examples.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

We haz Steps


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

SO FRUSTRATING!!! 
No matter how light or dark, or tone , i just cannot get the blue in the decal to show up!! its always looks black or blueish black. I tried just cyan ink and it turned out green
I used up all my decal paper!! 
Probably has something to do with that "School Bus" yellow.
AND even after all that... i got the decal in the wrong place


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## nscaler711 (Dec 4, 2015)

Honestly. I'm glad you picked Santa Fe. It looks great. 
I missed alot and really glad you went with blue pilots, that's how they are on the prototype. 

As for brake lines, at least you aren't doing them in N scale.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

This is why farm implement rattle can paint is not the best for modeling










I have just sanded it back down and repainted it but wont know if there is an improvement until it dries 48 hours later.


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## nscaler711 (Dec 4, 2015)

How far away are you spraying from the model? Also temperature will play a big part in the paint drying.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Makes me want to eat an orange (classic "orange peel" finish)

Greg


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## trainmanfw&sw (Nov 4, 2020)

I guess all my post on painting were waisted post, yes there is an art to painting. Sorry to see all your hard work endup with a poorly painted model. I'm not saying it hasn't happened to me, it has, I just removed all the paint and started over, that's good enough reason to do it right the first time. Once again too many coats, or not applied correctly, common problem when applying with spray cans, plus that much paint may never dry, you may get cracking down the line from the underneath paint still trying to dry and you covered it up with more paint. 

trainman


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Ok sanded resprayed with piece hanging upside down. its a little better. Flat coat should hide most of this.
Aparently Krylon primer dosn't work easily with generic tractor supply paint. I really do not like this brand of paint but sadly it was the only school bus yellow i could find locally. Difinetly going to put in an internet order for some Tamiya or Testors modeling Paints.
And maybe dust off the old airbrush compressor for the next model.


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## trainmanfw&sw (Nov 4, 2020)

That looks much better, glad to see it's working out for you, painting can really be a PITA for sure.

trainman


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Front railing is done. I decided to just reuse the old lionel stanchions instead of making new ones, as they press right in. they are a bit thick . no real exuses here except ,, im lazy.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Rear railing is done. Now to think about the roof mounted AC unit


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Frankenlionel cab is ready for dull coat.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

When you've been hanging on to that FDD to IDE adapter since 1993 because you thought you just might have a use for it some day.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Slowly moving to lighting


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Slowly, but beautifully, can't wait till the next installment. And I too keep parts for years, never know when you will need them, and in today's atmosphere no longer available.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Attempting to make Ditch Lights. But they kinda look more like HEP connector boxes


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

You might take a look at the ones offered by Ozark. I have used them on several occasions. ditch lights – ozarkminiatures
I think I used 3mm leds in them







.











Kind of a different look on this SD40R but prototypical for this S.P. rebuild. Same ditch light casting on top of MU connectors also from Ozark.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Power boxes it is then.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Paul Burch said:


> You might take a look at the ones offered by Ozark. I have used them on several occasions. ditch lights – ozarkminiatures
> I think I used 3mm leds in them


That's actually pretty affordable!


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

OldNoob,
They work well. Ozark also has a speedometer cable that might work on your geep. Made for 1/29 but still should work since you are using USA trucks. 
Most all my diesels get them..


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

It's a madness i tell ya.
I really need one of those 3d printers. i know i could produce better precision with one.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

A little better


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Simple strobe circuit for FrankenLionel


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Noob, I cheated, Radio Shack carries blinking LED's. Disadvantage of them is they all blink independent of each other.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Nick Jr said:


> Noob, I cheated, Radio Shack carries blinking LED's. Disadvantage of them is they all blink independent of each other.


That would work. Usually we only need one or two at the most per an engine. Unless one is doing blinking ditch lights then timing might be an issue.
Is radio shack still around??


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Noob, there is a web site and it appears to carry the blinking LED's. I do miss the one that was just 5 minutes from me, could get anything at the spur of the moment.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Decided to do the Coupler Lift bars from brass this time, while the steel wire is durable and holds it's shape in an impact,, it's just a pain to shape with small pliers


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Testing Ditch Lights.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So you cannot have alternating ditch lights?

Are you using magnet wire?


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## Exador (Jan 24, 2020)

Greg Elmassian said:


> So you cannot have alternating ditch lights?
> 
> Are you using magnet wire?


Greg. I found a neat little circuit on ebay for alternating leds. It took about 10 minutes to build. I run it off of 1 3.7v rechargeable. Arrived very promptly from China. The panto car in the bullet train has 2 lights in the back.
Flasher


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

How did Santa Fe use their ditch lights? On solid, alternate flash at grade crossings? Or? I've set mine up to automatically alternate flash for ten seconds with a grade crossing horn and then go back to solid.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> So you cannot have alternating ditch lights?
> 
> Are you using magnet wire?


I suppose ... I could make a circuit like this..


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's a link about ATSF: (about 1990, all locos were to be outfitted by 1996



https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1515851



Apparently not all Santa Fe, really BNSF locos had flashing lights, most that flashed seem to have been bought from SP.

This is from a cursory investigation

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> So you cannot have alternating ditch lights?
> 
> Are you using magnet wire?


It something very much like magnet wire, they are Christmas string lights. There is a fine insulative coating on the wires that has to be scraped off before soldering.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Some of that stuff will have the insulation melt away while soldering... did you try that?

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Some of that stuff will have the insulation melt away while soldering... did you try that?
> 
> Greg


I actually did test just soldering the wire and found connectivity and bonding issues. Scraping and sanding the coating off at solder points yielded the best results.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Was just curious there is a version of magnet wire that does this, but it probably costs more money. I have used some of the stuff I am talking about and it works a charm.

Just taking a shot in the dark, I hate scraping magnet wire! (Made a few DC motors back in the 50's and 60's)

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Was just curious there is a version of magnet wire that does this, but it probably costs more money. I have used some of the stuff I am talking about and it works a charm.
> 
> Just taking a shot in the dark, I hate scraping magnet wire! (Made a few DC motors back in the 50's and 60's)
> 
> Greg


This is what they are.


https://www.walmart.com/ip/BalsaCircle-7-5-feet-20-LED-Fairy-Lights-Garland-Wedding-Party-Event-Home-Centerpieces-Backdrop-Decorations-Supply/859641125?wpa_bd=&wpa_pg_seller_id=6F046CCA733542FDAA550BDDBFE4A3D5&wpa_ref_id=wpaqs:vrBRuu4SOozkycnO1IxzXBf15YHcrHpsT8GQvo3ICTEtzLt75_XFvoDYAlhmnIvSEm4oJtD7XUpuz6BsO8Oym136oMhupyJSV7SLc9_GBjFoj6cxdoNzxZZXD3Qen7DL3aFZCMVRxXNGYPCn89XFvSBtDErtJg02PXIxfKq10NMYsncNvGm8Vta8PW63G6l_lNjY_3WoYkVJIUxhnI3EXQ&wpa_tag=__tag__&wpa_aux_info=__aux_info__&wpa_pos=1&wpa_plmt=__plmt__&wpa_aduid=__aduid__


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Paul Burch said:


> How did Santa Fe use their ditch lights? On solid, alternate flash at grade crossings? Or? I've set mine up to automatically alternate flash for ten seconds with a grade crossing horn and then go back to solid.


Got a link for that?


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Progressing slowly


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

THAT IS ONE BEAUTIFUL LOCOMOTIVE. The paint and detail are amazing.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Nick Jr said:


> THAT IS ONE BEAUTIFUL LOCOMOTIVE. The paint and detail are amazing.


Thank You!


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

Mate, nailing it. It's looks very prototypical. Love it.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Scott said:


> Mate, nailing it. It's looks very prototypical. Love it.


Thank You.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

FrankenLionel is finally finished and ready to run.


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

It's ALIVE!!!!!!!


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Had a chance to do some "glamour" shots will be uploading some.


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

Mate, that is the Bee's Knee's of modelling. You have made one exquisite model.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Scott said:


> Mate, that is the Bee's Knee's of modelling. You have made one exquisite model.


Thank You very much.


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