# Had hard time keeping up 4 bar on AD60 Garratt



## applegeekz (Nov 27, 2012)

Could someone help me trouble shoot my AD60. What could be the problem? 

I tested my AD60 for the first time this morning, after the pressure gauge read 4 bars I cracked the throttle and turn off the blower, the pressure gauge reading dropped drastically to 1 bar after just 15-30 seconds. I literally had to turn on the blower all time just so the pressure gauge would state at 1 bar. 

I was thinking it may have been the ceramic sheet that I cut and fitted into the burner were too tight, and thus not enough room for the alcohol to flow through evenly???


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Nate,

The wicks sound like a good place to check first to make sure they are no issues there.... They didn't seem to be any obvious or at least visible steam leaks which is what you would think for a rapid steam pressure drop. 
You may want to check possible less obvious places based on steam connections in your diagrams...

I'm sure others more experienced with this engine may be able to provide more detail...I'll be getting real experienced soon enough...

Sam


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well, I don't know Mr Apple. but I think that you must have a lemon there.
Since the current value of these seems to be in the $5,000 range, I'll take it off your hands for $5100!
On a more serious note, I would have thought that if it came up to pressure okay, then it might not be the burner related.
Losing pressure so quickly, I would think a leak somewhere in the steam lines.
From the video, I see a lot of water coming out the stack, how full was the boiler.
Was the axle pump in full operation?
Did the boiler fill so that there was no room for steam?
If you open the blower while running, will it help maintain pressure?
If you open the throttle with the wheels stopped, is steam coming out the stack, or the sound of?
Okay, I'll make it $5200 then.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Full Disclaimer: I have no experience with the AD60 and not all that much experience running live steam locomotives.

That said . . .

A couple of observations . . .

I notice that throughout the video, there is quite a lot of water continuing to come out the stack, even at the end of the video. As I look at the AD60, I see that it may be a bit prone to condensation especially from the rear engine as it looks like a pretty long run between cylinders and source of steam as well as on the exhaust side. To my eye, the front engine was running a bit faster than the rear engine, but that could be an illusion?

I then watched a couple of other videos of the AD60s running on a track and the exhaust appears to be as dry as one would expect of more conventional locos. This got me thinking . . .

How about lubrication? Are you getting enough steam oil to the piston rings? I have no knowledge of the oiler circuit on the AD60. Does it use a common oiler for both engines? Is it a pressurized system or a conventional Roscoe oiler x 2?

I wonder whether the loco has been broken in yet, Nate?

From what I understand, it takes from 3 to 5 hours of run time for the piston rings to swell and generally, to tighten up. If the pressure is dropping, you may be getting blow-by past the piston rings and since the steam is very wet, perhaps not as much draft as when using the blower and so you are fighting to get more steam and the steam you get remains wet.

It is quite possible that the AD60 takes a bit longer to break in as well as, with the boiler in the middle and the cylinders at the extreme ends, the steam is probably generally wetter than with more standard arrangements.

Why not run with the blower open a crack until you see a drier exhaust which may indicate the piston rings are swelling/tightening up?

Pure guesswork on the part of an amateur. 

I've no doubt a pro will come along and be more helpful.

As you can tell though, I do like to analyze things mechanical 

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Just read David's post . . .

I've got $5,500 waiting for you here . . .

Uh oh, bidding war! 

I saw all the water, but it did not occur to me that the boiler may also be over-charged with water as well. One thing is certain is that the exhaust is very wet.

Cheers,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Nate,

Putting aside your two price jokers here...I think there has to be a small steam leak somewhere in the system based on your description.

You are able to get your engine running ok albeit at a lower pressure...you had to increase the blower and give up more steam to keep the engine running where it was....If the burner system is working as designed you should have no problem making more steam ....

You can try PMing Charles since he has a AD60 and may give you more specific ideas on where you might look. Also, he's a very experienced troubleshooter.

Sam


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

What about a clog in the boiler tube which contains the superheater (assuming this model has one)?


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## applegeekz (Nov 27, 2012)

Thank you for everyone responses. 

I diagnosed the problem this evening. I found there were holes in the silicone water and pressure pipes connecting to the back tender. This may be the reason why it was leaking. Parts have been requested.

Nate


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

I'm willing to bet my last dollar that your problem is the front end drafting. First check you have an airtight smokebox and plug any suspect areas with silicine caulking. Then make sure your blastpipe is pointing straight up the chimney. A common design fault on many Asters I have found is that the blast pipe is too low in the smokebox and the 'cone' is larger than the orifice.
David M-K
Ottawa


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## applegeekz (Nov 27, 2012)

GaugeOneLines said:


> I'm willing to bet my last dollar that your problem is the front end drafting. First check you have an airtight smokebox and plug any suspect areas with silicine caulking. Then make sure your blastpipe is pointing straight up the chimney. A common design fault on many Asters I have found is that the blast pipe is too low in the smokebox and the 'cone' is larger than the orifice.
> David M-K
> Ottawa


Dave

That's a very good point. I check and report.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Nate
The "test bed" of rollers is not the best setup for the AD60. The AD60 has a front engine bias. One should use drain cocks and move the engine forward and reverse to warm up both engines and clear condensate (best test is on track). Getting the rear engine warm is one of the key factors to a good run with a slight open of throttle. It is a very long run for steam getting into the rear engine. If the rear engine is "cold" and lacking good steam and maybe oil could impact rings and cylinders

Seems that through out you have too much water thus if you would have little steam reserve thus no steam pressure just "hot water!" Thus running at open throttle would have used all the steam pressure given a continued open throttle position.

Not sure how long it took to get to steam pressure as to if there is any wick or alignment problem with exhaust and/or the blower nozzles.

So, back to step one to determine if there is another problem related to steam "loss."

If steam pressure drop is a problem then it could be:
Steam line leaks
Gasket leaks
Seal related air leaks
Piston rings
valve travel or lift
cylinder leaks
backhead leaks (throttle)
size of exhaust and exhaust nozzles

Good to see it under steam....


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

My AD60 is a prodigious steamer and I have a great video where it is pushing an Allegheny around the track with a large load of coal hoppers in tow.






In addition to all the ideas above, check that the front and rear engines are properly connected to the steam lines. I had a problem recently when I serviced the front engine - when I reconnected it to the boiler, the flexible joints didn't go fully into position causing a steam leak. 

Also remember the bypass valves - if these are fully open, then steam doesn't find its way back to the smoke box and this reduces the draft.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Robert,

I couldn't tell from your video but in Nate's video it looked as if the engines are not synchronized. Is that the way it it is designed on these engines? I suppose I can wait a week or so and see for myself but I'm curious.

Any other nuisances...other than 2 lubricators,etc? 


.Also, where did you find the hoppers?

Thanks!

Sam


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

*Hoppers*

Sam
Do not forget....3 day smooth sides are the ticket for the Garratt:

3bay hoppers

For freight cars

Tootle Engineering


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Charles,

If i cant find 3 bay hoppers (which I doubt i will in 1/32) I will likely use the MDC 2 bays with some artistic license as needed...

Sam


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

boilingwater said:


> Robert,
> 
> I couldn't tell from your video but in Nate's video it looked as if the engines are not synchronized. Is that the way it it is designed on these engines? I suppose I can wait a week or so and see for myself but I'm curious.
> 
> ...


Sam,
How do you mean synchronized?
As they are in effect two separate locomotives, they cannot be expected to be run with the wheels at the same position, if that's what you mean.
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

boilingwater said:


> Robert,
> 
> .Also, where did you find the hoppers?
> 
> ...


They look like the Tenmille brass kits from the UK to me.
http://www.tenmille.com/gauge1wagons.html
Scroll down to nearly the bottom!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## gearedsoft (Jun 20, 2009)

Last week my Garratt ran for the first time and this is what I do:

- open the drain cocks
- open the bypas valves of the pumps

- let the pressure get to about 2 bar
- open the blower
- when at 4 bar (about 4 minutes from firing the engine) open the trottle, but you stil need the blower ,the exhaust is going out of the drains, but still a lot of water is coming out of the stack
- after about 10 meters I close the drains and the bypass, the pressure is now lower then 3 bar, but a soon as you close the drains, the exhaust will put the pressure higher than 3 bar in a few meters. Close the blower.

This only works when you have a few/lot of cars behind the garratt. The more the better. I mostly run with about 60 axles.

I will post a video shortly, my hoppers are 1/29 USA Trains.

I only had the problem that not enough alcohol was going to the burner (air bubbles in the tube), I solved this by putting the alcohol tank a little higher in the tender.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Nico
Very good procedure....in particular: "This only works when you have a few/lot of cars behind the garratt. The more the better. I mostly run with about 60 axles." Lots of cars this locomotive needs it and can easily pull a heavy train ( as denoted many times to its capacity).


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks Nico and David...

Here's a good video of the pulling power...






Sam


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## gearedsoft (Jun 20, 2009)

As promised:





More video's of that Event at:
https://www.youtube.com/user/Profhoutrot


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Nico,

Thanks for posting that. Very impressive setup. Club layout?

Sam


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

boilingwater said:


> Nico,
> 
> Thanks for posting that. Very impressive setup. Club layout?
> 
> Sam


 
It's one of the tracks at the National Carriage Museum in the town of Leek in the north eastern Netherlands.

David M-K
Ottawa


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## gearedsoft (Jun 20, 2009)

David, you are close.

But it is not at the museum, but at a playground next to the museum. Every year from Ascension Day until the next sunday they have what we call the stoomdagen (steam days). 4 days of steaming. 

It is the biggest event in the Netherlands for steam. They have multiple gauges: 7 1/4, 5 1/2, 3 1/2, gauge 1 and the 203mm (1:7). There is also an exhibition and a few steam tractors/lorries are present.


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