# G scale future???



## Dunbar (May 5, 2016)

Here is a little excerpt from a longer reply on another G scale site. The following quote is from Shawn Conahey, Dakman Productions.

"Another thing is that G Scale is still slowly shrinking in the USA. That is a fact whether anyone wants to realize that or not. Crest is now gone, Scott Polk of GenerationeXt called it quits. USA Trains is just mainly concentrating on producing the American Series and very little Ultimate Series. Starting to see parts dry up for even USA Trains products such as the 12 wheel drive motor blocks. Fred Devine VP of Accucraft and AML passes away. I don't know if you noticed but the amount of G Scale being sold off privately has gone thru the roof."

Here is my question /poll to everyone. Do you think G scale is still shrinking. I dont see it. Yes it declined as did most things due to the recession, but it seems to me like its starting to come back. With no disrespect intended to Shawn, his last line states G scale private sell off has gone thru the roof. That is one of the things that makes me think its coming back. I mean, yes, alot of private stock is selling and that could be from the older guys that are now at the point of saying Im just too old now to get out there and do stuff. Or it could also be from people that had to down size due to the recession, tried to hold on to stuff, but for whatever reason are saying " let me sell this stuff ". Either way alot is being sold, BUT , if you look at the prices its bringing; I'd say its strong. A few examples. Look at used track prices. Occassionaly you can find it in good shape in the $3-$4 margin per foot, but alot of used is about $5+ a foot. Another ex is Aristocraft 1:29 tankers. Back in Dec/Jan you could get them for 25-35 dollars. I got a few. Now , they are averaging around $70 on Ebay. Im watching auctions on cars bringing very good prices. USA Trains ultimate series still getting top dollar used. I could go on with other stuff Im seeing but I wont. 

So as I stated above, what is everyones opinion on this matter. Have we hit bottom and are now climbing back up or is this a short hot streak and G will resume its decline.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Very common G stuff on eBay is less expensive but the harder to find collectibles are getting far more expensive.
I think the average household with some shorty LBG stuff or Bachmann Big Haulers are selling it for economic reasons and also the realization that an outdoor model railway takes up space and has a lot of maintenance. So G scale may have had it's day with the masses therefore manufacturers will no longer be interested in producing them. 
Then there are the die hards who are picking up the 'good stuff' while they still can. Check out the prices of an LGB Pullman coach now! or many 'scale' models that are exclusive or no longer produced or common. The hobby is booming on the live steam front because of baby boomer retirements, those with memories of steam in their youth enticed by some superb looking and tempting models. This will pass too as they 'drop off' then the hobby will be something from a different time in which the models that last will be precious to the very few that love their trains.

I recently saw a large shed with an awesome amount of G scale trains in it, hundreds of them all proudly showing their dust. Many were for sale but I was not interested in any of them because they were like A'holes, everyone has one. Nothing special there... 

I think the active but smaller G scale market is a much more fussy modeler. wanting scale fidelity whereas the shorty compressed stuff made for the convenience of the masses is not so sought after and in abundance on the second hand marketplace. The advent of 'F' scale has played it's part in all this too. The middle ground is dying while Accucraft and Thomas are strong!

Then again, I might be completely wrong... but in the meantime, who dies with most trains wins. 

Andrew


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I really feel that G gauge has always been an older mans hobby and like my father who got into G back in the 80s, a lot of these older men are dying off. The poll I ran a few months ago proved this. That is where the glut of G on the used market is coming from. So, with mad money for toys like it is today, people are not willing to spend the dollars to support the hobby as in the past. As I see it, the hobby will continue to decline until some manufacturer comes out with a ready to run electronic locomotive with smart phone control not only for speed and sound but working couplers and even preprogrammed routing. Let's face it. The 21st century has brought us full on with video games that are so life like you'd swear you were there. If the train can't be operated by a smart phone, these new buyers today won't give G a thought.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The older generations that grew up with trains are definitely those most interested in them, especially steam era. 
I think also a lot of older guys who like trains set up a G scale railway to entertain their grand kids but the kids grow older and then lose interest so the trains get sold off once the fun is all over. 
Yes, I agree that technology has to become incorporated to keep the tech savvy generations interested.

Andrew


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

to that question there are two types of answers.
the general ones, and the individual ones.

normally, when this kind of thread comes up (about once or twice a year per forum), everybody rants about the general aspects.

i'll do that too, but only shortly:
railroad enthusiasts get older and die off.
houses and backyards get smaller and smaller.
middleclass has less and lesser expendable money.
so, good bye Largescale!

MY individual answer:
at about the age of 55 - 60 i brainstormed with myself, what i would need/want for the next 10 -15 years of largescaling.
i bought that stuff (plus a 50% "you never know" addition)
(track at 1.-$ per foot, Stainzes at about 50$ - i'm frugal)
and now? - well, individually i can't care less, if the hobby in general grows or shrinks.
my trains will acompany me for the rest of my life, then they will be given or thrown away.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Only 50% more. Is that all, are you on a budget or something? 

Andrew


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

I haven't been active in G scale for long. I bought my first round of engines and cars in the late 90's. It collected dust for awhile. Then in 2013 after my daughter was born I took down my HO scale layout to make room for her. Not having a train room anymore I finally built my first outdoor railroad. Now I'm hooked on large scale trains.

I'm approaching 40, so I still could have many years ahead of me with HO scale. But I've watched my Dad and other older model railroad friends age and turn back to O scale or go to G scale. So I'm going to stay with G scale from here on out.

I've come to enjoy the animation features I've seen some do with figures, buildings doors, etc. 

I'm a fan of diesel era (late 70's through today). When I look at what people are creating using 3D printing and resin castings, to me this means there's an interest in modern day G scale railroading. 

Will manufacturers start making more modern era stuff, who knows. If AML releases the hi cube boxcars this fall/winter I'll be buying quite a few. I plan on picking up a couple of the GP60's if they come out. As the fans of modern era stuff begin to age will we see more being produced, time will tell.

Currently I buy my stuff in multiple ways. Reindeer Pass, RLD, private sale, and eBay.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Where to start... during the 1990's I got the impression that G had a small but devout following, but starting in the early 2000's G took off and got very popular, pushed along by the gung-ho economy and people spending like drunken sailors on all that re-fi money and we got a lot, and I mean ALOT of newbies into the hobby and the market expanded accordingly and the participation on the forums soared and we got alot of new product to meet the new market demand, but then in 06 the first waves of the coming recession started showing, then we got the Big Hindenburg, LGB failed, that was in retrospect a catastrophic seismic event in large scale, LGB was for many the public face of large scale. 

Then the recession hit hard in 08. People who had been drunk on cheap money now found themselves up a certain creek sans paddles, all unnecessary spending went out the window, along with all the hobbies. We not only shed most of those newbies but quite a few long timers as well. The on top of that China sent prices through the roof. That’s been a deal breaker for a lot of people, stuff went from reasonable to pricey to insane, its only in the last 2 years I have seen prices for things dropping but that’s mostly due to inventory clearance sales. It’s been the lingering effects of the recession and the price spikes that have taken the biggest toll of the hobby, it was big reason Aristo went under and the main reason Bachmann has shelved the Spectrum line. The only aspect that has actually seen growth is in live steam, and I suspect that’s simply because the folks buying vive steam today are pretty much the same folks who were active before the economy went pear shaped, and also by Piko who see the market void apparent after LGB Marklin went AWOL.

What we see today is the ongoing effects of the last 10 years, on Ebay I see old layouts are getting pulled up, old stock is getting sold off as people age and can no longer can maintain the layouts. There’s a lot of interest in model railroading, the train shows prove that, but the cumulative effects of the recession, the lack of a public face for large scale aka LGB being largely MIA even today, though Piko is trying hard to fill that slot. Large scale isn’t dead, I don’t even think its on the ropes, but instead its simply been reset back to 1990, there’s a smaller but still devoted group of modelers left, there are newbies but not anywhere like 2004, and there are promising signs (Piko) but its never going to be like 2005 ever again and we should forget ANY idea that its ever going to be. 

Me, I still got all my GR magazine plan-sets from pre-recession days, I have some used track and a pile of dirt in my backyard, I still have all my indoor stuff, I have no plans to sell it off and go golfing (ugh the horror!) I just can’t help but feel that unlike HO and N which are growing new pre-built-pre-painted product out their ears, we’re going to be back to 1990 scratchb uilding what we want, I just cannot see that manufacturers putting much money into a niche within a niche within a niche hobby so we’ll get a few new products, but nothing like we got between 1999 and 2008.


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## White Deer RR (May 15, 2009)

I guess I was one of the "wave" of newbies in the mid-2000's. I bought an Aristo starter set on sale and slowly added track and cars. I have a very small collection, which is fine with me.

The loss of Aristo and Crest is disappointing, particularly from a spare parts and track standpoint. I purchased extra track when they first went out of business, and some springs and such. Long term as stuff wears/breaks I guess ebay or switching to different rolling stock may be in order. I have enough spare track I could do substantial repairs if needed.

If the economy doesn't crater again, my guess is G scale will survive. I can't tell you how many people who come to our house get excited when they see the layout, and I have a fairly simple layout. But price is indeed an issue, I think I paid about $225 for the initial starter set about ten years ago.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

My opinion is that THIS large scale hobby has always been the same demographics (old guys who always played with trains since their youth AND the younger crowd with a high threshold of disposable hobby income. When things were flush in the economy in the early 2000's, then the newbies found a new hobby and spent like crazy.

Vic's correct........the older guys in live steam are still in it, as are the "seasoned" guys in the sparkies. And a few of these are into multiple scales of model railroading, up to and including the ride-on trains.

My biggest concern is the vendors and brick&mortar stores dropping out for retirement. And their are quite a few. Bottom line, large scale will never again reach the popularity it had in the mid-nineties to mid-2000's. Those were the "glory years" never to return again IMHO.


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## Cataptrra (Mar 16, 2015)

seen a few local dealers go by the wayside as well, one opted to retire, then passed away, sad thing is, there is still a LOT of inventory left in the old store, now a storage area for other stuff for the main business that's there {and his brothers}. I've talked to his wife about trying to buy some of the old G stuff, but seems I just can't get her to sell it, especially a lot of the used track he had for the elevated layout that ran through the entire 2 room store, as well as some loco's and rolling stock. I keep trying though. Then another store the owner sold off with the intent it would be kept a train store, that didn't happen, it turned into an overpriced second-hand store for not only G train related stuff, but for all types off odds and ends, and they buy stuff for PENNIES!.. Won't mention the store here, but I attempted to sell off some rolling stock {aprox 10 boxcars, one had a Christmas Sound module in it}, all these at the time had a used value of at least $250-350.00.

I was willing to take $100 for all of it at the time, know what I was offered, $10.00 and then they wanted a power pack/throttle, locomotive and caboose to go with them for that measly $10.00 price offer! NO WAY!

So I kept them and will use them if I ever redesign and move my railroad to accommodate the larger rolling stock like that.

So from what I've seen and heard in the only hobby shop in my area that still sells G related items, it is definitely dwindling down and may be gone in another 3-5 years if something doesn't change to get it to bounce back.

We've lost far too many manufacturers of G trains, but in my opinion, I believe it's because not only because of those recessive times, but because they would *NOT* produce road names in some of the better know roads, they always wanted to stick with xyz railroad. 

If I could have gotten more loco's in L&N, Chessie and the old Seaboard Coastline black/yellow paint scheme, that's what I'd have on my railroad, and I'd have preferred they make some roadnames in steam, even if they didn't exist at all. So what? Some folks would buy them, I would have if I could have gotten them at the time I purchased my G train items. 

And even if those that DID exist and I saw numerous posts from folks wishing some would be made, but those requests fell on manufacturers deaf ears, so in a way, that also helped to dwindle the sales, especially in G, because you could get these same roadnames in N, HO and even many in O, but those of us that wanted some of these in G were left out in the cold and had to settle for other roadnames instead. 

And I personally believe by NOT listening to their customer base that requested their favorite roadname{s} for their model G outdoor/indoor RR empire, well this is why many of these now defunct train manufacturers did their own selves in and why they are gone today.

But that's just my opinion.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i hate to say it, but its not good at all. for exampe. i get picked on/ ridiculed ALL THE TIME at school for being interested in "those stupid choo choo trains". i am olny one at school interested in trains


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Garratt said:


> Only 50% more. Is that all, are you on a budget or something?
> 
> Andrew


worse. my hobby room is full. no more space avayable. and at my modelling speed it would make no sense, to make it bigger.

even so the odds are, that my layout will still be unfinished, when i myself am finished.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

kormson. That looks like my place! You have made me feel a little more 'normal'. 
Although, you have confined things to just the hobby room. There is a new frontier for the iron horse to roll out the rest of the wide open spaces beyond... There may be encounters with hostile inhabitants with painted faces who don't see things the same way. 

Andrew


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> i hate to say it, but its not good at all. for exampe. i get picked on/ ridiculed ALL THE TIME at school for being interested in "those stupid choo choo trains". i am olny one at school interested in trains


You sound like you're pretty well grounded. When I was your age, one piece of good advice I got (though didn't always follow) was to do what interested me and not worry about everyone else. From this side of 40, I certainly wish I could get back some of the time I spent on one or two things that I wasn't enthusiastic about, that I did more to fit in than because I enjoyed them.

Be yourself, and spend your time on what *you* enjoy. Those are the things I haven't regretted--and I'd bet you won't either.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Socializing, chasing girls and cars all seem to get in the way of some childhood passions at a certain age but then when the dust settles it is time to get back into it. I know now that it is the things I stuck to and had a passion for were the things people would respect me for. It is most important to be yourself.

When I first got back into trains it was G scale, a Bachmann Big Hauler Coal Creek Lumber set. I bought an extra flat car with logs and built a wooden water tower. I only used it a few times set up on the floor and displayed but felt self conscious about what other people thought so I sold it all. When the guy came and picked it up, I gave him the water tower I had made and he was amazed that I had made it and was giving it away. I brushed off the moment saying, 'It would be an OK set for kids', me downplaying myself having the set. He responded saying 'but it is for me'. Afterwards, I thought what a dill I am denying and devaluing my own passions that other people also share. 
I got back into it full force since and don't care what other people think. Most people love trains anyway... Toot toot!

Andrew


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Korm, same here, I'm still buying things that I don't have any room for, but I'm not thinking about this minute, I'm thinking of five years from now and where LS might be, particularly if someone in China coughs a hairball and prices shoot up again. I have a window of opportunity to buy affordable track and I am not going to waste it.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

riderdan said:


> You sound like you're pretty well grounded. When I was your age, one piece of good advice I got (though didn't always follow) was to do what interested me and not worry about everyone else. From this side of 40, I certainly wish I could get back some of the time I spent on one or two things that I wasn't enthusiastic about, that I did more to fit in than because I enjoyed them.
> 
> Be yourself, and spend your time on what *you* enjoy. Those are the things I haven't regretted--and I'd bet you won't either.





Garratt said:


> Socializing, chasing girls and cars all seem to get in the way of some childhood passions at a certain age but then when the dust settles it is time to get back into it. I know now that it is the things I stuck to and had a passion for were the things people would respect me for. It is most important to be yourself.
> 
> When I first got back into trains it was G scale, a Bachmann Big Hauler Coal Creek Lumber set. I bought an extra flat car with logs and built a wooden water tower. I only used it a few times set up on the floor and displayed but felt self conscious about what other people thought so I sold it all. When the guy came and picked it up, I gave him the water tower I had made and he was amazed that I had made it and was giving it away. I brushed off the moment saying, 'It would be an OK set for kids', me downplaying myself having the set. He responded saying 'but it is for me'. Afterwards, I thought what a dill I am denying and devaluing my own passions that other people also share.
> I got back into it full force since and don't care what other people think. Most people love trains anyway... Toot toot!
> ...


 thanks guys


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

I love trains. Alway have. 
Yes we are ridiculed by some. Others, seem to love our hobby when they see it.

As for g, i have long thought, this is expensive and space consuming, given average income and housing.
What average person, income, time, space, etc. can afford $350 for a starter set and an oval that takes up a 4x8? For example, the same $$$ in n scale will get you a great starter set, track, and a couple of buildings that fit nicely in the same space. OTOH, speaking for myself, there is something exclusive, (as in luxurious, elitist almost) about g scale, generally. I don't know if I am alone in this point of view.

And, as for the smart phone comments, as relating to a technically advanced train product, , I too have marveled at Lionel and MTH o scale offerings, ie the independent lights, fire, reverse lights, couplers, class lights, dispatcher chatter, sync smoke, etc etc., and think, I am buying modern day "tin plate equivalent" trains in my beloved LGB. I get , btw, the huge market difference and economics of scale. I don't know if I would spend 2k per loco to get these things in plastic g scale locos. I might. I might not. I CAN repair my stuff, AND find parts for the most part. No way these techno wonders.

Live steam...anything of any detailing.....seems to start at 1500 + used. nice locos much more. and, while 'any ol dude' could run them with a bit of thinking, most , I venture, would not even consider such locos over the familiarity and convenience of electrics. I was mightily torn between a sparky Mason and the live steam version....which would I likely use more ???????

G is convenient if one likes uber detail, or has aging eyes, clumsy fingers, etc.
In one sense, some model g as a smaller, less is more, super detailed layout, not unlike G15 layouts in some sense, as opposed to the 'railroad empire' of n or z scale, where, more is more.

As a lazy/busy guy, (one with the skills to scratch build,but short on the patience) , I am loath to build micro details. I want them available ready to paint, etc., as they are in other popular scales. Who pays $35-$40 for 2-3 figures? (I have, slowly, somewhat reluctantly, over decades, in order to build a population). Detail offerings are changing in G, going from slim to almost nothing. This can hurt newcomer's choice of scales in which to model, I believe.

Nothing has its presence and comparative wow factor when it comes to the range of electric trains.

Otoh, as a cartoon depicted an oval with granddad and grandson, trains running in circle, with sound and lights, among the scenery, the grand childs quote "is that all it does?" Seems Apropos. 
Otoh, miniatures always hold a fascination for some demographic. The skills to create and build are not as widespread, i think.

There are times when my n and z, not to mention HO, all seem to make a lot more sense, in terms of space, cost, and product range.

Ill never let my g stuff go, as so far, i use it, certainly weekly, and it has a certain joy of ownersip, for me. 

i too think g will be the " old geezer esoteric and eccentrics toy of choice". So long as you still have a house and not an aptmnt. Live steam too.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Any trains smaller than G are too hard to see and my fingers are all gone fat and clumsy. 

Andrew


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

MTH has brought out some new reefers/hoppers lately and repaints of the F7 engines/cars. They also released new dash 8's and the Big Boy 4014 should be out soon. New engines also work with DCC and the MTH DCS system. Used prices on MTH have gotten high , and a Daylight engine just sold for $1100 and a Hudson for $650. So I'm glad I picked up mine when prices were lower.
I do think the hobby is down, attendance at Marty's has steadily dropped over the years and there does not seem to be a lot of interest in this year's event. Membership in the Nebraska club seems to be holding well, they are in the eastern part of the state, just me and Ron out here.


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

I got rid of almost all of the trains. I am looking at a possible downsize move since hubby went. A lot mostly sat on shelves and the idea of getting a garden in with the trains went further and further away. In the end the few pieces that are still around are LGB mostly because they will slip around some very tight curves. Hopefully might move back indoors and looking at something like Klein Arosa as inspiration once things are more settled.

As for the manufacturers I think they see the market is mostly saturated at this point. People not buying as much and a lot of used on the market. However, that being said, I think live steam has shown it has some legs but for how long? People flock to watch them at shows but I do not think most go 'oohhh let's do that!' especially when they see most of the prices. Yes, it seems a bit ridiculous to me that small live steamer runs several hundred and people shy away but think nothing about plunking down the same amount for the latest iPhone. Both expensive toys. 

Will Large scale be around for a long while - yes. Will it be what it was - I think not.


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

After reading some of the comments I forgot to mention that the Minnesota Garden Railway Society (MGRS) is growing every year, some of them are young families. At least that shows as a positive for people being interested in the hobby.


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Does not look good. Pete


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## Dunbar (May 5, 2016)

MGRS is growing! Thats great news. Keep up the good work MGRS. BTW, whats your secret to growing ? Maybe some of the other states could use that info to regrow their memberships.


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

Our club layout is located in Wayzata, MN (western suburb of Minneapolis). The city has helped promote as a top attraction to see in the city. We've also had local media (TV and newspaper) do stories about member's layouts. We have members at the club layout every weekend running trains and talking to people about garden railroading.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i will add that g scale sparkies will most likely be around for a long time. battery is iffy with all the decoders and such. now live steam is dying off(literally!) at an alarming rate. but as long as im alive there WILL be at least one steamer out there. i think HO scale have the best chance of surviving.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Nate, live steam is not dying off. It's currently at it's peak in development and available products. It has a dedicated following by those who are able to spend many thousands of dollars. Not the type of thing the general crowd are into though.

Andrew


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

HO scale trains are not weathering the storm like G is or has been..
HO is not loosing suppliers..
HO has a huge variety base we could only dream of having in G..yet will never approach.

HO does not have to weather out in the weather!!
L O L


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## Cataptrra (Mar 16, 2015)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> i hate to say it, but its not good at all. for exampe. i get picked on/ ridiculed ALL THE TIME at school for being interested in "those stupid choo choo trains". i am olny one at school interested in trains


Don't feel like the lone s"train"ger there. I got the same thing through school too, but I NEVER, not once ever wavered from playing and running my trains.

When I finally got into G in or around 1996-1997, I was in my early 40's. mainly because I got tired of trying to work on and fix those blasted smaller scales and I tried them all, N, HO, even Z, now I'm lucky if I could even get one of those sizes on it's rails! LOL

A few months or so ago, after I had set up and nice sized outdoor loop in what little yard I have to work with, had some lawn maintenance guys stop and looking at the railroad area, I usually stay inside when they are doing the lawn work in the home park, but overheard them talking and kind of chuckling about who puts a train outside? Among other snickering commentary.

So I walked outside and looked at them like I hadn't heard anything they had been saying and they asked, you must have kids huh? Said, nope, never had any, don't plan on any now that I'm heading in to big 6-0. Then who and what's the train track for, they asked. I said ME!, That's who, been into since around ''96-97 era. Next question you can probably guess, "ain't you a little old to be playing with trains and toys?" said, NOPE!, that's what keeps me going and happy and I'm not going to stop until they pry my favorite locomotive from my cold, hard hands. LOL

Anyway, they asked if I could bring out a train and put it on the rails and run it, so I did. And they were flabbergasted, they didn't know that our "toy trains" could be so sophisticated with real sounds, bells, whistles, actual working signals like on the real railroads, along with the heavy smoke output that the fan driven smoke units can produce.

They were totally mesmerized by it all, and then they realized I was controlling the train with a wireless remote, and thought, wow, that's so cool. We take back what we said about it being a toy and playing with choo choos. And they both are now asking me questions almost every week about how, where and what they can do to have an outdoor train in their yard or indoors, as I did have an elevated 2 track G layout for well over 12+ years when I lived in apartments and had no yard.

So let 'em laugh and make fun all they want, but if you can ever get them to "visit" your outdoor layout or even an indoor one{depending on which you have} and see how it operates, some folks will change their mind, some won't, but most of the folks I've had visit my little outdoor G railroad are just taken away with the train I may be running at the time. And more have had their mind opened and changed when they see just what all you can do with a G sized layout and train set.

But let no one take away from anything you enjoy or love doing, you'd end up just making yourself miserable!


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## Cataptrra (Mar 16, 2015)

stevedenver said:


> I love trains. Alway have.
> 
> {deleted for clarity to answer apartment option}
> 
> i too think g will be the " old geezer esoteric and eccentrics toy of choice". So long as you still have a house and not an apartment.


Actually, that's not entirely true, I may be an OLD GEEZER now LOL, however, I got into G at the age of 41 in 1997, maybe 40 in 1996, just recall that's when I got into it, I lived in a 2 bedroom apartment, the second bedroom was nothing but boxes and boxes of rolling stock and locomotives, tracks propped along one wall and had an overhead layout that ran through my living room and kitchen area, all double tracked, with one section being tripled tracked where a reversing unit{AristoCraft} was used for a small 3 car train. 

Had this setup for well over 2+ years before I moved to my next apartment, where the trains got brought down from the ceiling and put on a very large table, where I then added an O gauge layout in the additional space where the G ran around the perimeter, again G was double tracked and so was the O gauge. At Christmas the layout also held a 4' Christmas tree in the center, animated figurines, and additional Christmas decor {held Halloween decor during October}, after holidays, building and other items were put back on the layout. This particular layout ran this way for 10 years.

So for 12+ years I had both O and G sized layouts in an APARTMENT! So it's possible to do, I did it and it didn't crowd us out either, although I did have to eventually get a storage unit to put the trains in for a few years as the next apartment was only a 1 bedroom, so didn't have the 2nd bedroom to store all my trains in.

Ended up selling and/or giving away a lot of them, so now my trains are more limited, but I still have enough to keep me happy.

But just wanted to clear up the misconception that G sized trains aren't viable in an apartment, a studio probably not, a very small 1 bedroom, again probably not, but a larger 1 bedroom or a 2 bedroom apartment, there's plenty of room for at least a small G layout of some kind.

My table size in the 1 Bedroom apartment was 10' long and 6' wide and it resided in the bedroom right in front of the window where folks could see the trains pass by, as well as any holiday decor that would be used on the layout during Halloween, Christmas or any other holiday I may decorate for.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Garratt said:


> Nate, live steam is not dying off. It's currently at it's peak in development and available products. It has a dedicated following by those who are able to spend many thousands of dollars. Not the type of thing the general crowd are into though.
> 
> Andrew


 garrat, i mean that most of the "steamers" are "losing steam" and getting closer to the "end of the line". and we are losing the faster than we are gaining them. for example, a friend's jaw dropped to the floor ever since he saw my little ruby puttering around the track, so..he was really happy i offered him to attempt to steam her up, and run her. afterwards, he marveled at me for actually enjoying running what he considers "a bomb on wheels", and now he wont even consider buying one as they are "too much work"
sadly, most(99.9999999995%) of my generation would rather invest 2,000 in nike shoes and i-phones that a live steam engine


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

for those that say "i have no room"
http://polksgenerationext.com/product/brass-20-diam-circle-of-track/


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## Robby D (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm still hanging in there. The biggest problem in the business today is the large collections that are coming up for sale. it is really hurting the new business. especially for the Manufacturers. The Revolution will be back in a few months under new ownership.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> sadly, most(99.9999999995%) of my generation would rather invest 2,000 in nike shoes and i-phones that a live steam engine


That's why I steer clear of fast flashy people and fast flashy items. They are high maintenance and go out of fashion.
My steam trains will keep most of their value while giving me enjoyment. 

Andrew


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i 100000000% agree. (except steam engines are also very high maintainance!)


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## Dunbar (May 5, 2016)

Robby,
I have to disagree with the large collections hurting. Those large collections are what is enabling people like myself to get into G scale and at an affordable, newbies price. I , as well as 2 guys I work with are new to G and we all agree that once we get our stuff ( the used stuff we are buying) up and running; we are looking forward to getting 5 or 6 of those nice USAT ultimate series tankers or maybe a new SD40. I was actually in your website just this evening looking at metal trucks and wheels to replace the plastic ones on the used cars I have bought so far. Im upgrading my used stuff which means money to you and to the manufacturers. Eventually I will be buying new. Think about it like this; your first and probably your 2nd car was used. But once you got some driving experience behind you, at some point I am sure you bought a new car. Maybe new ever since, maybe used after new , than back to new, etc.. I look at it as, you have to learn to crawl before walk and than run . 
The recession hurt alot, but it seems to me like a few things are hurting us right now. 
1. How many of us are promoting the hobby? What are we doing to encourage it? I actually sent a email to a magazine explaining how I would be willing to write about my journey as a new g scaler on a monthly basis. What got me interested, how I researched, the start of my collection, the build of my layout; learnin dcc and battery, and so on., Im not a professional writer but I was willing to do something to help add some pages to a thinning publication. Here is the response;
" Concerning your proposed column, I'm afraid I must decline, this for a variety of reasons. One of the more important ones is the sad fact that we have a diminishing page count and I frankly don't have room for another column. Having said that, though, if you'd care to write a single article about your experiences in getting into garden railroading, I would be happy to consider it."

Dont have room due to a diminishing page count! Maybe its me but that seems like an oxymoron to me. If you are getting less and less pages, why wouldnt you find something to be able to add pages. Or are you going to wait until theres only 2 articles with each publishing and than say, " Oh, we have to stop, we have no interest or contributions. 
2. And this is a big one. The manufacturer's have to step up to the plate. The one thing that I think is still true today is If your not hitting the pavement and knocking on doors , no one will know you or remember you. Aside from the little niche shows or hobby stores, when was the last time you saw any of the G scale manufacturers advertizing to the general public. In my area, I have to say that I have seen the HO manufacturers advertise to the public. Its not all the time , but I have seen ads from Athearn,Bachman, and Walthers in the area as I drive. Heres a thought for USAT, Piko, AML(if they are still around). At christmas, advertise to the general public. Maybe get some kiosks at the malls going with some large scale trains running and some starter kits.Thomas became a huge childrens hit and still is. . Those kids that made Thomas popular when he first came out are now coming of age. Get their attention again And show off how you can control trains with your phones now. Push the electronic,wifi,arduino and raspberry pi stuff. The public has forgotten about you and model trains. Get your faces back out there and show them the new era of G scale. 
3. This one to the manufacturers again. Prices ! ?? Seems like your are looking for the few big sales rather than dropping your prices some and moving inventory. Reminds me of the meterbox study from college business classes. There was a study of cabbies done. One group was looking for the big fare,ie the long trip to the airport; the other was willing to take any passanger. In the end, the cabbies willing to pick up any fare were financially more successful then the cabbies looking for the fewer but larger fare. Can anyone explain or justify a 2-3 foot piece of track being $34-$38 ? How much actual brass is there? 2 lbs? If yellow brass prices are about $1.70 a lb on average( have been for last few years) theres what $3.40 of brass , maybe. Plastic for the ties are cheap. Would I be wrong to say raw materials are lets say $6.00. Lets double that with manufacturing costs- $12.00. Selling it for about 3 times that price. I know theres the other stuff like administration, structures, shipping , etc ; but I think you all see where Im going. Now ,, I dont know the actual costs, Im guestimating, maybe someone out there has actual numbers, but you get the drift. Than theres the whole thing with molds and dies and China. I dont even want to get into that. But I have heard and read several say , " They havent learned their lesson yet" Moving on. 
So OK, i guess Im ranting, or bitchin, however you see it. And yes, Im new to the hobby. Been in and interested for 2 years now having crossed over to the dark side from HO(relax, only kidding). Just think we can do something about this now before its definitely to late. Kinda like global warming. 
Cat, kudos to you for mythbusting and running your large scale in an apartment and for getting into it at a young age. Its not just for old men.
Props to MGRS for continuing to grow the size of their membership. 
Finally thank you to mylargescale for providing this forum that we can share knowledge, experiences, and discussions such as this one.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Dunbar said:


> ...Dont have room due to a diminishing page count! Maybe its me but that seems like an oxymoron to me. If you are getting less and less pages, why wouldnt you find something to be able to add pages.


(Disclaimer - I do not speak for Kalmbach or _Garden Railways_. What I'm posting is based on 20+ years in various venues of journalism, both print and broadcast.)

Unfortunately, page count doesn't work that way. Pages cost money to print and mail. The more pages, the higher the costs. When ad revenue is down (and for all practical purposes, magazines and newspapers live and die off of ad revenue), there's not as much money to print as many pages, so story count goes down as well. Magazines and newspapers across the spectrum have been fighting this battle. If we want to see more "meat" in our magazines, we have to encourage more manufacturers and retailers to buy more advertising, so there's money to pay for more content. 

Alas, we've been in a considerable slump for the past 5 years in terms of manufacturers and new products. With few new products, there's little incentive for manufacturers to advertise, and retailers don't have exciting new products from the manufacturers to list in their sales ads. Also, consumers aren't spending money with the manufacturers, so they have less cash to advertise with in the first place. 

Don't know what the answer is at this point. (If I did, I'd be a very highly-compensated media consultant.) How do consumers encourage manufacturers to spend money to develop new products and advertise them when their only feedback on the state of the hobby is declining sales and businesses going away? 

Short term, I think the catalyst for energizing things has to come from the cottage industries--folks working out of their garages or workshops with niche products--perhaps repair/replacement parts for 2nd-hand locos, or track components, electronics, buildings, etc. If we make it easier for folks to do stuff with the trains that are already on the market, we may just spur on more interest with regard to manufacturers making more, newer, trains for the market. 

Later,

K


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Perhaps the magazine is almost a Dodo now, considering what the Internet has to offer. Some people do like hard copy read. I used to be one of them but they tend to stack up in the corner only half read anyway.

Andrew


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

> Short term, I think the catalyst for energizing things has to come from the cottage industries--folks working out of their garages or workshops with niche products


 I have to agree with Kevin on this one. Take me, for example (and I have two exes who are thinking of Henny Youngman "Take my wife.....please"). I started from scratch in 2009. It took me only a few years to have a railroad running around my house: 500 feet of track, four locos, two powered RDCs, about 20 pieces of rolling stock, full NCE setup, etc. I also have about thirty feet of spare track (always in the way in the garage) for when I decide to add a siding or two, a mile-long list of things I want to do around the railroad, PLUS weeds around the "garden" that need pulling and flowers that need thinning (which I don't want to even want to think about), another recently-acquired older car with tons of things that need attention, AND people seem to think that retirement means spending your time in a hammock, reading. I wish!

In other words, there is a point at which many of us peak out with the hobby and have no real need to expand anymore. Much as we'd like to support the hobby by buying stuff, either our Social Security check can't stretch any further (I didn't get a COLA increase last year and I know who to blame for that - but we don't talk politics here) or there's no more room to put new locos, cars, etc.

I suspect I've hit on a big reason why HO is more "successful". You can buy, buy, buy and always justify it because you can spend it and store it. There seems to be a spend/space continuum that causes many of us G-scalers to peak out. As Kevin suggested, when I go to a train show (ECLSTS) I'm looking for "little stuff".

JackM


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

JackM said:


> either our Social Security check can't stretch any further (I didn't get a COLA increase last year and I know who to blame for that - but we don't talk politics here) or there's no more room to put new locos, cars, etc.
> JackM


i know, no politics, but i will say that due to "this thing" made by "this guy" my dad now has to pay literally 10 time more for insurance (both parents are retired) so "there is no more traain money" except what i make from mowing lawns


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

vsmith said:


> .....and also by *Piko* who see the market void apparent after LGB Marklin went AWOL............There’s a lot of interest in model railroading, the train shows prove that, but the cumulative effects of the recession, the lack of a public face for large scale aka LGB being largely MIA even today, *though Piko is trying hard to fill that slot*.............and there are *promising signs (Piko)* ......


Your're certainly right about Piko - I'd never really rated their stuff until I was in my local model shop recently. They seem to have a new marketing strategy, at least it was new to me, they had a good selection of stock all racked up on shelves, end on, so I could see the description and price - then all I had to do was slide out, one by one, those I was interested in and have good look through the large window. 

No need for a shop assistant - no need to keep asking "could I just have a look at so" and wait while the staff go rumaging in some back room to find it - how long does that take to get old?

I didn't really go there looking for anything specific, but a recently released cement sylo car (#37790) caught my eye that I thought would look good on my track maintenance train. So I bought it at a very good price and when I unpacked it I was amazed at the quality. If you've got a microscope, you can actually read the scale - the units (Kp/cm2) - the manufacturer (TGL) and even the source (GDR) on the little silo top gauges.

And all made in Germany - I'll certainly be going back for more ....


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> i know, no politics, but i will say that due to "this thing" made by "this guy" my dad now has to pay literally 10 time more for insurance (both parents are retired) so "there is no more traain money" except what i make from mowing lawns




Other side of that coin, is without it, I'd be dead.
Can't buy more trains, but can build a better layout so G is alive and well still going, here.

When I was growing up I bought trains with my paper route money... 

Happy Rails,
John


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

East Broad Top said:


> Unfortunately, page count doesn't work that way. Pages cost money to print and mail. The more pages, the higher the costs. When ad revenue is down (and for all practical purposes, magazines and newspapers live and die off of ad revenue), there's not as much money to print as many pages, so story count goes down as well. Magazines and newspapers across the spectrum have been fighting this battle. If we want to see more "meat" in our magazines, we have to encourage more manufacturers and retailers to buy more advertising, so there's money to pay for more content.
> K


The problem here is that the publishers are creating a vicious cycle: ad revenue is down, so they print fewer pages of articles. Readers see fewer articles, so don't subscribe or renew. Advertisers see circulation numbers fall, so ad revenue goes down further. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I understand that there's no easy solution, but clearly people aren't buying magazines to see the ads. I'm willing to pay for content (I'm a GR and MR subscriber), but as the ratio of ads to content skews, it's harder to justify. 
------------------------------------------
To answer the (oft repeated) question: I think G Scale manufacturers will thrive or struggle based on the economy. G scale is just a hobby (sacrilege!), and it's hard to get people to spend money on "fun" when they're struggling to pay the bills. We're still in the middle of the poorest recovery since records have been kept, and the labor participation rate is lower than any time since the 1950s. That doesn't bode well for any business that relies on discretionary spending.

If the economy takes off again, I expect manufacturers to make a comeback and perhaps new ones to start. If there's another recession, or things just keep growing slowly, their struggles will continue.

As far as the hobby itself, there are interesting things going on: 3D printing, Computer control, RFID trainsponding, etc. And as others have mentioned, the live steam side seems alive and well.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Yea TW...
I "Know why your my desert rat neighbor now!!!"
We both threw papers up the front walks..
.. just to feed our Trains buddy!!
My Friend did it also.. often we even road on each other's routes... we rode our bikes up to Pasadena.. still friends today..after a lifetime..think kindergarden!!
Can you say?
" Whistle Stop!".. on Colorado blvd...
Lived there as often as we could..miles from home.

Train on Chaps!!
SD


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

SD90WLMT said:


> Yea TW...
> I "Know why your my desert rat neighbor now!!!"
> We both threw papers up the front walks..
> .. just to feed our Trains buddy!!
> ...


After reading your somewhat nostalgic post SD, I had to Google "Whistle Stop - Colorado Boulevard" and I found this video .... 






It's shops and owners like these that are the future of the business - Train on indeed! ....


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Rays in Long Beach was my Thistle Whop!
John


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Yeah - I looked for that one too, John - but the trail went cold sometime in the '70's ....


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## Cataptrra (Mar 16, 2015)

SD90WLMT said:


> Yea TW...
> I "Know why your my desert rat neighbor now!!!"
> We both threw papers up the front walks..
> .. just to feed our Trains buddy!!
> ...


When I was younger, had much better vision{legally blind now} to do the fine work, I was in HO for many, many years, and I too, like you 2 guys, tossed newspapers to pay for my HO RailRoad and HO AFX Racing Setup, which got intertwined when they brought out the racetrack with the HO train track built into it.

I'd never do this with a real 1:1 train, but it was fun racing those fast HO AFX cars and trying to beat the other guy to the finish line as the train approached. Can't count the number of times I, or other participants, derailed the train at the RR crossing because we just didn't make it across in time. LOL


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## Cataptrra (Mar 16, 2015)

As for magazines diminishing, my issue with this is: _*CO$T*_, why is it these train magazines maintain the same, or higher prices when there is FAR LESS content than there had been in prior issues? 

If I was in charge of such a magazine and it was diminishing in such a manner, I'd be cutting my pricing to match the magazine size. 

Otherwise, me personally, I feel like I am getting cheated by paying the same cost for less product or information.

Or am I missing the train on this one? I don't think so, but others rail mileage may differ.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I doubt if anybody wants less for their money, but at the same time, playing with trains is a luxury (no matter how much we claim it's life sustaining). My subscription is also a luxury. Therefore I make my choice to accept the reality of rising costs as fewer subscribe. That reality is a thinner mag.
I think you would soon be out of business, left trying to pay off your debtors.

I'll reread Classic Trains 3-4 times, Trains twice and GR once... plus with your subscription you get web access to Klambakes files....

John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

John 842 said:


> Yeah - I looked for that one too, John - but the trail went cold sometime in the '70's ....



I was off to college in '69, up near San Francisco and all those hippies in the Haight ... um I got distracted!

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

In the service then TW.. Wonder you didnt bump into myself..or Alan either..us all from the bay area!!
But.. We're all together now..thanks to MLS & our luve and enjoyment of Trains.

SD


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't too much about the Future. I have enough dealing with today. I just keep working on my layout. I think if it was't for my layout I would be a stove up cranky old ******* in a wheel chair. 

JJ


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> for those that say "i have no room"
> http://polksgenerationext.com/product/brass-20-diam-circle-of-track/




















All three using that Aristo circle


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

He's new, he has not learned all about pizza yet.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

greg, i know about pizza layouts. i tought it might be fun to build one some time,.. maybe some day. or one of those hartland barrel train kits. i foret where i saw it, but once somebody built this g scale circle of track that was only like 3 inch diameter and they had a picture of a live steam cricket running on it. it was on MLS somewhere...
- nate


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## Cataptrra (Mar 16, 2015)

My only complaint with Polks Generation NexT website is when they were AristoCraft, product had much more detail and gave enough information you knew what you were getting without actually being able to physically hold or see it. the PGNT site, just doesn't have that same rhetoric and makes it really difficult to know what you are actually getting. 

Plus every time I've visited there looking for specific type items, they are always banded with OUT OF STOCK labels on them, which seems to always be there no matter how long it's been between visits. 1-2 weeks or 6 months, seems the same stock is never in or there.

And it seems some of the original AristoCraft line is also long gone, especially the steam loco's. the SD45 diesels, along with the new fan driven smoke units they had developed.

I figured someone would have continued these somewhere, but sure doesn't look like it.

And these rebuilt under other names manufacturers expect to continue like this? Looks like a definite recipe for early and permanent failure to me. 

And why G scale may continue to dwindle until only used items are all you can find for your layout, unless you have the skills to build things yourself. just know I can't do that. 

I keep hoping to see a big bounce back in G related items, but it sure looks extremely bleak from where I'm sitting.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

please, SOMEBODY BRING BACK THE ARISTO PLOWS!!


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

They have! - well not quite the same .... 

http://picclick.it/Spur-G-Piko-37820-Dampflok-Tender-als-331907676110.html#&gid=1&pid=1


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Nate;

The vehicle pictured below was built for the express purpose of sweeping leaves and shining rail heads. It could just as simply have been built to plow snow. Plastruct and others have thick styrene sheets that can be formed into plow blades for a snowplow.



















Take a two or three board gondola (or build your own from a flat car, like the ones below), and build a plow onto one end of it.











Before you know it, you will be building all kinds of custom equipment for your railroad.










Best wishes,
David Meashey


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Dave is that your 'Mo' pilot car? Needs a bit of a trim... 

Andrew


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

dave, i just cant figure out how to make that plow blade shape. i would like one that could bolt onto ruby in wintertime


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Robby D said:


> I'm still hanging in there. The biggest problem in the business today is the large collections that are coming up for sale. it is really hurting the new business. especially for the Manufacturers. The Revolution will be back in a few months under new ownership.


 100% agreement. New sales are pretty low, being you can get a used loco or cars for sometimes 50% of the current purchase price. For a long time I have only been buying used for my own purchases with limited exceptions. I have not bought rolling stock in many many years. Bought all I need and its been 5+ years since I got any with the exception of some used kits. I am to the point where I have a list of what I want and if it comes up I may buy one. But for the most part my roster is full. Just need to run them all now once I get my track up and running. 

I keep hearing the same thing when I ask about new product, we have all this inventory in the warehouse to sell. Well most is the same product that's been available for 10 years that's for sale and can get used on Ebay or elsewhere and is hard to justify spending a lot more just because its new. Some manufacturers don't really cater to us and just make toys for kids as they say. Piko is one that good for that. They don't want to make better products as they feel its a toy market for children. Told this directly by Piko reps and a friend that does their R&D. they don't even want to do commission work.


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

"HO has a huge variety base we could only dream of having in G..yet will never approach." - I'll agree with that statement, since I decided to start an HO layout myself; the main temptation was some of Broadway Limited's & Rapido's HO New Haven RR offerings; first HO purchase was a Broadway Limited New Haven streamlined I-5 4-6-4, followed by Rapido Osgood-Bradley NH coaches for it to pull, and another BLI loco, an NH I-4 Pacific. ALL of the previously-listed models are highly unlikely to be ever produced in G (either as 1:29 or 1:32 models). 

That being said, for the past 2 months or so, the new HO models have "gathered dust"  as I've concentrated working on the garden railroad. Since I primarily run Bachmann & Accucraft 1:20.3 models outside, I have been more than a little concerned about Bachmann's backing away from their production of the finescale 1:20.3 models, which I consider to be MUSEUM-grade works of art! I've taken advantage of a couple of the "fire-sale" prices recently & added a second 3-truck Shay (currently awaiting a DCC sound decoder) & long caboose to the roster. I've also been doing extensive maintenance on my existing locomotives, some of which are around 16 years old & getting tired - just finished installing a pair of new motors in my B'mann 2-6-6-2T Mallet (one developed an armature short, figured I'd better replace BOTH motors while the parts were still available!). I'm overhauling my Shays for electrical pickup issues (including some of the one's I've retro-fitted with the die-cast trucks; some of those problems might actually be between the trucks & the sliding contacts under the frames) - those engines have LOTS of run time on them. The garden railroad itself has been outside for over 13 years now, & I'm starting to experience some contact issues on my LGB turnouts; I'm actually debating pulling up virtually ALL my mainline track, cleaning EVERY rail joint on a wire wheel, & reassembling it. Part of the issue was that some of that was "deferred maintenance" due to taking care of my aging parents - my Mom passed away  nearly a year ago at 96 after 3 years of deteriorating health, my Dad is barely hanging on at 97 in a nursing home at this point. (I was caretaker for BOTH of them until their health issues got to the point I could NOT adequately care for them at home). To say I've had my hands full for the past 4 years or so with other than hobby-related matters is an understatement to say the least.

With the economy looking as though things are finally swinging back, I'm hoping that interest in Large Scale will revive. I understand Bachmann's current concentration on the Thomas line in G gauge; hopefully Thomas will help "pull" the rest of the Bachmann finescale equipment back into production (if not, I expect to see the prices on USED Bachmann 1:20.3 equipment "skyrocket" on eBay in years to come!) - If not the former, hopefully the latter will entice Bachmann (& other manufacturers, including the Aristo line) to get back into the Large Scale market. One can only hope...  Tom


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew;

Not sure which car you mean. The leaf sweeper/rail polisher was built over a decade ago. It uses a Brawa rail polisher (shown in the red circle), but I don't need that so much now that I run mostly the live steamers. The two board supply gondolas were built from Lionel LS flat cars. The Brandywine & Gondor cannon car is scratch built, and nicknamed a "Balrog catcher." Don't know which of them would be a "Mo."

Cheers,
David Meashey


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Dave, the car at the front looks like a big mustache! 










Andrew


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry Andrew;

Don't have cable TV. If you had typed "Groucho," I probably would have gotten it.

Cheers,
David Meashey


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

"Dave is that your 'Mo' pilot car? Needs a bit of a trim... 

Andrew"


"Dave, the car at the front looks like a big mustache! 










Andrew"

That's all right Dave........That's Ned, not Mo! Sorry Andrew I could not resist   Larry









Moe


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> dave, i just cant figure out how to make that plow blade shape. i would like one that could bolt onto ruby in wintertime



Get an empty paper towel roll. The card board center. Cut 2 equal sections; along the length; 3/4" wide and about 2" long. Hold them together Length wise end to end and slight tilt one side allowing them to overlap. Experiment with different angles and soon you'll see your way.
Try different shapes from the roll. 

John


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## apo234 (Aug 14, 2013)

G scale started going down when all of the manufacturers stopped making things after 2008, they did it to themselves, people are not going to stay in this hobby and new people are not going to join it if they can't get anything. I still have my G scale trains but went back to HO


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## Robby D (Oct 15, 2009)

Here is the problem. there are so many people selling there collections that it is cutting deep in to new sales of product for the dealers and the manufacturers. it's great that everyone can get a good deal buying used or even new items at a really low price. but the down side is less sales of new product. and that is the number one cause of the manufacturer's ability to make product. they don't want to make it and have it sit for years. plus China has raised the minimum quantities to produce products. it's a tough situation.


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Nate get the paper roll shape right then buy a foot of black abs 2 inch pipe and transfer the pattern and glue it together!


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Echoing Robbie, I saw Kidman's bought a big collection of like new stuff.
Also Wholesale Trains is closing.
http://www.gscaletrainforum.com/index.php?/topic/931-wholesale-trains/


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

NO! THAT IS oNE OF MY FAVORITE ONLINE STORES!!!!!!


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I canot make any statement about the state of the market in the USA as I have returned to France since the mid seventies. Here the hobby is picking up at last although a lot is narrow gauge. there are now two groups in France who do live steam. I have very little contact with the many groups who do LGB. 

One thing that amazes me though is the rising prices for US equipment industrially made in China: F units by MTH which used to cost around $300 for an A A (powered) set are now costing nearly $700 for a single A with a dumy B unit. Ditto with the daylight which has more than doubled in price. At these kinds of prices I really dont understand why people don't jump the ball and get a live steam version. Meet the real mcCoy boys.


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I think aml's live steam dockside switcher would do very well right now If it could be sold for under $1k (US). I assume competition from Aristocraft LS and the waning economy hurt its sales last time.


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## ubls4u (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello All,
this is my first post in Large Scale an I want to explain why I`m building in this scale. I don`t care of scale, I`m building my own railroad the CVR (COOL VALLEY RAILROAD) some 40 years ago because LGB was too expensive after buying two 100 years starters. So I build my own cars, poured my own trucks side frames in metal all equaliesed, get some wheels turned from friends and so it worked until now. Cheap parts turned into wonderful models no original brand find the way in my railroad because it`s a fiction. I build mostly from pictures and the scale is somewhere between 1:24 an 1:25. Plans in Garden Railways and Narrow Gauge & Short Line Gazette gave me the kick. Now I have more than 30 scratch build Locos, Diesels and specials and more than 70 freight and passenger cars 90% home build. The discussion of different scales should have come earlier because the mixture of different scales killed the garden railroad and limits the number of customers. This is what modelers like me be forced into niches. But this is the fault of the manufactures. A better marketing and no near to scale offering could have stoped the CHAOS in scale and gauge. This is my opinion, the CVR is meter gauge and common in the US and it is limmited to the beginning of WW II for the US. It is a fictional railroad somewhere in the south near the mexican border and that is the only thing that counts because it is my railroad fantasy.
Kurt from Tenerife ES


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Recessions come about frequently - part of economic cycles. The next one isn't too far away. Since I joined this forum I've been advocating a need for new technology elevation into the hobby - like smartphones for e.g. and have gotten enough flak and pushback - which is normal and expected when diehards abound because 'sunlight' is a problem. If it was, why is Apple market value now $900 billion? Don't we dial outdoors eh by just tilting a little?

Fortunately my buddies and me invested $16,500 (all we had then in 2002 by selling our store inventory of tools) and now that stock is worth ?? - you figure. But we hung on when doomsayers arrived - and departed and still using our phones in bright sunlight and no knobs to order beer+pizza with one click. That is important during game season, for example.

The trend is your friend. Ask anyone on successful Wall St. Today's kid's don't want to spend 5 minutes on a controller with 30 buttons and function 'codes'. Why deny this? Didn't we lose the necktie already?

So how do you sustain this hobby? By shows? Good Luck to us!

@Randy: If the train can't be operated by a smart phone, these new buyers today won't give G a thought. --- Amen.


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## coldrain85 (Nov 24, 2017)

I don't think it's the economy so much as it's the baby boomer generation aging out of the hobby. That's what we are seeing right now. Economic downturns come and go and it's not like they affect everyone. 

After reading some of the comments here, I'm also not buying the claim that G-scale trains are an older man's hobby. I started my LGB collection in 1981 when I was 8 years old. Sure, I didn't accumulate items as quickly because of the cost, but that's what I got for Xmas and my birthday every year from age 8 to age 13. Before that I had HO scale trains, but when I saw LGB trains for the first time I never wanted to have anything to do with HO again. Once I got into high school my interests changed and the train got put away for a while, but I am getting into it again now that I have small children and plan to move onto a bigger piece of land pretty soon. 

The problem these days is not exactly a new problem, but it is more of a problem than it was when I was a kid. The problem is video games and electronic devices in general. When you ask kids to choose between a video game console and a train for their birthday, most of them are going to go with the video games. Sad, but true. If folks here want the hobby to survive they need to get their children and grandchildren excited about it at an early age. I live in the Sacramento area and there is a really cool railroad museum nearby in Old Town Sacramento. Instead of taking the kids to Gamestop to buy another stupid video game so they can waste their time, take them to a railroad museum, or find some other way to expose them to the hobby. If the hobby fades away we can only blame ourselves for not passing on the fun to younger generations.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Victor, people order Pizza on their phones not because they prefer phones over real controllers, you can't order a Pizza on an AirWire throttle.

But the use of high contrast monochrome LCDs outdoors far outweighs cell phones.

Sorry you feel put upon, but if color displays were really wanted, they would be in the current controllers.

Greg

p.s. I have a high resolution color touchscreen on my throttle, and wish I had my old NCE interface back.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I can definitely agree with Robby with the thought that used collections badly hurt the sales on new rolling stock. It makes it obvious that more are getting out of Trains in general than are getting into the hobby. Our growth has relied on technology going in to new and used motive power. The move to battery and high end sound has been a big part of our growth.


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Treeman said:


> Our growth has relied on technology going in to new and used motive power. The move to battery and high end sound has been a big part of our growth.


 I haven't helped your growth in that realm. I'm more of a quiet HLW-basher and scratchbuilder.
The one garden railway modeler in decent distance from me (20 miles) retired a couple years ago and sold their house to go live the RV, fish, and visit the grandkids life. 
Even our little indoor-scales model RR club has only gained 1 or 2 new members in 5 years while losing 4 to retirement and moving, or just moving. But then we are in a midwestern riverbank county seat farm burg of population 8,300 or so and that has to be a factor.


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## coldrain85 (Nov 24, 2017)

I can see how sales of new rolling stock would be hurt by people dumping their collections on eBay etc. Rolling was often made in large quantities in the 20th Century. Plus, it never really wears out or gets beaten up, so it's going to continue to be a problem for those trying to build and sell new items. My rolling stock looks like it did the day I bought it with a few exceptions like a door being ripped off one of the Mercedes on my LGB 4059 auto carrier by a 3 year old. When that happened I wondered how easy it would be to find another one. Out of curiosity I looked on eBay and there were a couple of dozen for sale ranging from $40-200. There were brand new ones for $60. I remember that car costing at least $60 when I got it in the mid 1980's. LGB must have made over a thousand of those 4059's. 

When I get my outdoor layout going in a year or two I am probably going to look into buying some high end passenger cars for one train, and standard rolling stock for everything else. Given that my money is not unlimited I will probably buy used.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I have a real nice set of Aristo passenger cars with UP paint.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Just musing on the subject.of the OP's question,,,
Possibly another small thing to add to the equation, is that fewer and fewer people in the US are actually "Owning" land and homes these days (for whatever reasons) , It's something to consider, if you don't have a garden, and no hope of ever retiring with ownership of anything,,G scale trains are great but where would such a person put them? in the living room of their one bedroom government aid financed apartment or single lot rented trailer? Not to mention young people are getting sicker or chronically ill at younger ages than the generation that preceded them , so a lot of money is going to go to health care in lieu of hobbies .


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> fewer and fewer people in the US are actually "Owning" land and homes these days


Hmmm . . The number of homes hasn't decreased, nor have the builders stopped building them. Someone is buying them.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Single family housing starts highest in a decade...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ly-housing-starts-rise-to-highest-in-a-decade

Google is your friend.


Greg - 368 - there is indeed light at the end of the tunnel


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

you don't "Own" it till the loan is paid. 
Also many of the "single family homes" are in developments that have strict regulations on what can be done in the yard. Not to mention the number of those renting is on the increase.


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

I love it....!!! Bring on the B'mann wooden ore cars that I'm looking for...used and at low prices....!! 
PS....don't send more than one at a time....$20 tops (Shipping included),,,,!! (I'm NOT a collector...I operate 'em, and ruin them with Kadee body mounted couplers) !!! ...I also heat the house with LGB, ARISTO, and B'mann boxes...It helps to get us over the deep freeze !!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Single family housing starts highest in a decade...
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ly-housing-starts-rise-to-highest-in-a-decade
> 
> ...


Greg,

Santa Clarita in Southern California (arguable the one of the most expensive states in the country for real estate) will be soon starting a 20,000 home development. Doesn't sound like a housing bust to me.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, your specific, locality based example, and my post from the US government covering the entire nation.

Here in San Diego, lots of new housing, filling out the costal communities and working inland.

Greg


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## Michael789 (Sep 3, 2016)

I am curious what more people think about this topic. I see a lot of interest in G-Scale, the issue is spending money in most peoples pockets. (Aside from the "I bought a $40 set for my kid and it only lasted 3 days" pushing many away from trains as a whole) 

I know some G-Scale companies are hurting, some are doing good... some might be blind to the market? 

My entire family is interested in trains... 95 year old's down to 1. (Many have G Scale, so maybe I miss what is happening globally.)


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I hear that people looking to rebuild from the fires in California are looking at $425 a square foot. Seems crazy, I don't know where insurance payment would be.


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## Mike Flea (Apr 8, 2014)

Probably from all of our insurance companies raising our premiums to pay for someone else's disaster


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike Flea said:


> Probably from all of our insurance companies raising our premiums to pay for someone else's disaster


Mike, that's a rather strange thing to say. The purpose of insurance is to pay for "someone else's disaster". Just as you pay for car insurance and hope you'll never need to make a claim on it !!

If there are lots of natural disasters, then of course everyone pays more in to the insurance pool.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Treeman said:


> I hear that people looking to rebuild from the fires in California are looking at $425 a square foot. Seems crazy, I don't know where insurance payment would be.


$425/square foot is reasonable in California to rebuild today. We have a modest 1600 sq. ft., 2bd., 2 ba. on a 11,000 sq. ft. suburban lot here in Burbank. Would cost over $600/sq. ft. to replace right now. Real estate is NUTS out here!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Back to the OP topic. I got into G back in 1991 at a slow pace. I still had a lot of HO trains. Got out of HO due to move and no where to put HO. So g became the scale of choice and could be built out doors. Yes I consider G scale to be more originated to middle age folks as we become empty nesters and now can afford the larger trains. 

When manufactures stopped making new products I pretty well had what I wanted and have no use for additional locos, cars or track. My interest changed some as Now I do LS also. I have the need locos to run LS and need no more so I'm good.

I think there are other folks like I that have what they need and really have no need new items. So another reason for the slow down on purchases making dealers think the hobby is dying. The younger folks that get into the hobby want more new things in the larger scale but the following is not there as the smaller scales have the advantage. Later RJD


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