# Aster JNR Passenger Coach



## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi

Im looking for some Aster JNR Passenger coaches, but I cant any longer make an add under "Classified, Wanted". How do I do it? It might be a 1. class feature now, but I cant find anywhere on the site where it says so.

Regards

David
DENMARK


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear Mr DK - I've passed the request around to the homeland - IMO you'll get more luck over there than in Yoorup. Most folks I know who have them would not be parted from them at any price - after all, what else can you run with a C57/62? 

...and because of the low interest, nobody else makes them. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks for spreading the word. Nice of you! 
Ill make an add in the next N&J. That might give something. 

(Wondering....... "Why did I get a C62 in the first place?") 

/David


----------



## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

You've probably made the mistake that so many do when they get into this hobby, they don't know what interests them so they buy everything they can. You really have to focus.
I've been in Gauge1 since 1961 and in the last 20 years I have focused on British Southern Railway and its constituents, and for North American Canadian Pacific both in 1/32 and 10mm. I used to have GWR and Pennsy too but now just the two former railways which makes life much easier.
It also allows you to concentrate in gaining lots of knowledge about a couple of railways and scales rather than a little knowledge of many and becoming a Jack of all Trades and Master of None. ifound years ago that I was spreading myself too thin.
Think about it David, and decide what you want
David M-K
Ottawa


----------



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

David
Do not worry about the cars you will be pulling with the C-62. I know I will not worry. When I have looked at the videos on youtube about the C-62, most of them have concentrated on the engine and when they do show the cars behind them they are at a far distance. I dont know about others but I look mostly at the Loco's any way. 
My C-62, according to Jeff is running great and will be back here in Houston , late May. I plan on using the heavyweights and will try yo find some ventilators to put on the top to look more like the JNR passenger cars.
Good luck with your rebuild project.


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi David, 
I was approached many years ago and asked if I would build a set of JNR coaches of some sort. 
I said that it should not be a problem as long as I get decent drawings, photographs and livery details. 
I couldn't find any source, and neither could my customer, so the project died! 
There are probably books in Japan, but maybe not! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 24 Apr 2010 08:44 AM 
Hi David, 
I was approached many years ago and asked if I would build a set of JNR coaches of some sort. 
I said that it should not be a problem as long as I get decent drawings, photographs and livery details. 
I couldn't find any source, and neither could my customer, so the project died! 
There are probably books in Japan, but maybe not! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 

Well, if I was going to build a set of JNR coaches, then right now I'd be buying a set of Kato or Tomix H0 passenger cars and using them as a basis to scale up, bearing in mind that even they are not truly H0 scale. As you note, unless you live in Japan you are unlikely to find examples of the many dozens of very fine railway magazines that fill the counters of bookstores in Japan - but great things can be done by using models. Very careful use of Kato's equally fine-scale N- gauge models could result in a good 1/30th scale model. 

Aster intends to build a run of modern passenger cars to match their new electric loco, but I feel that they won't be hanging around for long - Zubi just told me that EVERY single log car for the new Kiso Forest Railway loco sold out in less than three weeks. If you didn't get them then, you ain't going to get them now.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 24 Apr 2010 02:10 PM 
As you note, unless you live in Japan you are unlikely to find examples of the many dozens of very fine railway magazines that fill the counters of bookstores in Japan - but great things can be done by using models. less than three weeks. If you didn't get them then, you ain't going to get them now. 
tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/



Doesn't Zubi live in Japan? Perhaps he can lend a hand.


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well, if I was going to build a set of JNR coaches, then right now I'd be buying a set of Kato or Tomix H0 passenger cars and using them as a basis to scale up, bearing in mind that even they are not truly H0 scale. As you note, unless you live in Japan you are unlikely to find examples of the many dozens of very fine railway magazines that fill the counters of bookstores in Japan - but great things can be done by using models. Very careful use of Kato's equally fine-scale N- gauge models could result in a good 1/30th scale model. 

Aster intends to build a run of modern passenger cars to match their new electric loco, but I feel that they won't be hanging around for long - Zubi just told me that EVERY single log car for the new Kiso Forest Railway loco sold out in less than three weeks. If you didn't get them then, you ain't going to get them now.

tac
www.ovgrs.org

Hi Tac,
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you.
A lot of HO and smaller models are not super accurate, and then when you scale up it just multiplies the inaccuracies.
You have to start with good scale drawings, OR the real thing that can be measured, if you want to build a good accucrate Gauge 1 model.
At least, that is my experience.
Secondly, unless you know the history of the different Japanese railways and what the locos in question might have pulled, you just end up making the wrong model.
It might be like building a BR Mark1 coach, painting it in GWR colours to go with a Castle class.
Just not quite correct! If you don't care, it might look fine, but it is NOT correct.
So Aster are going to build 'modern' cars, well that is probably still not 'correct' to go behind steam!
And the logging cars were being sold here at $600 for a set of two! 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By David Leech on 24 Apr 2010 04:23 PM 
[...]
So Aster are going to build 'modern' cars, well that is probably still not 'correct' to go behind steam! 


David, strictly speaking not, because steam never pulled them. But they would not look bad behind a steam locomotive. They are museum pieces now just as steam locomotives, and you can run any museum pieces together for fun/fans. 

Posted By David Leech on 24 Apr 2010 04:23 PM 
[...]
And the logging cars were being sold here at $600 for a set of two! 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


They were not exactly cheap in Japan either, seven pairs cost as much as one Baldwin. Obviously, your Aster dealer or importer might quote any price, even $6.000.000 per pair as this is entirely irrelevant, though it might make folks feel better. By the time you in US heard about them these cars were gone... Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 24 Apr 2010 06:22 PM 
David, strictly speaking not, because steam never pulled them. But they would not look bad behind a steam locomotive. They are museum pieces now just as steam locomotives, and you can run any museum pieces together for fun/fans. 





Well, there you are David Denmark. Better get your order into Aster Europa and pretend that you are a preserved railway. Aster Japan don't mention then on their web site, but Zubi must have seen them, so perhaps there is still time.
I wonder what the price is? 
$600 US for two little logging carts!
Passenger car? $2000 US? 
Let us know what you find out.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By David Leech on 24 Apr 2010 06:45 PM 
Posted By zubi on 24 Apr 2010 06:22 PM 
David, strictly speaking not, because steam never pulled them. But they would not look bad behind a steam locomotive. They are museum pieces now just as steam locomotives, and you can run any museum pieces together for fun/fans. 

Well, there you are David Denmark. Better get your order into Aster Europa and pretend that you are a preserved railway. Aster Japan don't mention then on their web site, but Zubi must have seen them, so perhaps there is still time.
I wonder what the price is? 
$600 US for two little logging carts!
Passenger car? $2000 US? 
Let us know what you find out.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


David, I only have JP info here. 2000 is not unlikely though;-). Contact Adam of C&O L-1 fame, http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/11/aft/114916/Default.aspx he is getting some of the blue train cars. Even if the steam era cars get re-released (possible) they will not be cheaper either. The solution: go narrow gauge!! Less cars needed, lower price per car;-)) But they sell out much faster... Best, Zubi


----------



## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Dear All 

First of all. Thanks for your time and advice. Nice to get some info. 

You are going to get mad now. My first JNR Passanger coach arrived yesterday - in its org box - and everything. Looking very good. (Its naturally secondhand, but no trace of use to bee seen) 
Price: just a littel more than 100 euros (160 US.) I thought it was an ok price. I wasnt thinking the sums that Zubi names.. wow. Anyway looks like I made a good deal.  

About the choice of locos. Im into mechanics and the C62 is an advanced model - very goog craftmanship (in my eyes) Sadly the one Art referes to of mine has had a hard life and needs a rebuild. Im allmost done with a remake of the firedoor now. Then the axlepump is next. and so on. It will in time have some home made coaches. (The JNR coaches are for my other C62..) 

Here in Denmark most people run german trains, do to the big influence of Märklin + they are easy to get here in Europe. My dad runs english (Southern) or american (Pennysylvanian). I probably end up running japaneese, or french (if I get the coaches) But as Art says. If you are a few feets away you dont look at the details of the train. Focus is on the locomotive. 
When we have GTG's we normally lend rolling stock from one an other. The time where we can run a train with "correct" roling stock is long out in the future. Mabe in 10 years time? Remember live steam here in DK is only in its young years. 

PS: David L.: Ill contact you later regarding JNR coaches (and others) I can easy make the needed DXF.files 

/David


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 24 Apr 2010 04:23 PM 
Well, if I was going to build a set of JNR coaches, then right now I'd be buying a set of Kato or Tomix H0 passenger cars and using them as a basis to scale up, bearing in mind that even they are not truly H0 scale. As you note, unless you live in Japan you are unlikely to find examples of the many dozens of very fine railway magazines that fill the counters of bookstores in Japan - but great things can be done by using models. Very careful use of Kato's equally fine-scale N- gauge models could result in a good 1/30th scale model. 

Aster intends to build a run of modern passenger cars to match their new electric loco, but I feel that they won't be hanging around for long - Zubi just told me that EVERY single log car for the new Kiso Forest Railway loco sold out in less than three weeks. If you didn't get them then, you ain't going to get them now.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/

Hi Tac,
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you.
A lot of HO and smaller models are not super accurate, and then when you scale up it just multiplies the inaccuracies.
You have to start with good scale drawings, OR the real thing that can be measured, if you want to build a good accucrate Gauge 1 model.
At least, that is my experience.
Secondly, unless you know the history of the different Japanese railways and what the locos in question might have pulled, you just end up making the wrong model.
It might be like building a BR Mark1 coach, painting it in GWR colours to go with a Castle class.
Just not quite correct! If you don't care, it might look fine, but it is NOT correct.
So Aster are going to build 'modern' cars, well that is probably still not 'correct' to go behind steam!
And the logging cars were being sold here at $600 for a set of two! 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


Mr Leech - Don't be sorry to disagree with me, after all, we have a long established tradition whereby I put 'em up, and you shoot 'em down, eh? As for smaller scale not being super accurate Kinzoku-san would be quite peeved to hear of your opinion of his exceptionally fine models, which, although built to the Japanese near-H0 scale of 1/80th, are nevertheless the best there are. And JNR passenger coaches of the steam-era style hauled by the C57/62 are either brown or blue - at least, all those I've either seen or travelled in have been. No worries there about painting them up in an incorrect colour scheme, with only two - both correct - to choose from.

Still and all, Mr _DK seems to have found an Aster example that you could easily copy.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

David
Could you post a real good picture of the coach on MLS. I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance
Art 

ps. are the dx. files what are used to make cars. i have a contact here that made my portable tables that uses cad files. maybe he could reproduce.


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 25 Apr 2010 08:37 AM 

Still and all, Mr _DK seems to have found an Aster example that you could easily copy.

tac
www.ovgrs.org





As I said Tac, I would need drawings.
IF their Japanese coach is anything like the accuracy of their British Southern coach for the Schools, why on earth would I copy it!
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 25 Apr 2010 11:31 AM 
Posted By tacfoley on 25 Apr 2010 08:37 AM 

Still and all, Mr _DK seems to have found an Aster example that you could easily copy.

tac
www.ovgrs.org





As I said Tac, I would need drawings.
IF their Japanese coach is anything like the accuracy of their British Southern coach for the Schools, why on earth would I copy it!
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


Dear Mr Leech - Although, as Mr Pullen would tell you, what I know about British rolling stock could be writ large on an angel's eyelash, it may well be that the rather dumpy-looking thirty-year old+ Aster British Southern coaches leave something to be desired, and it may also be that Aster's JNR coaches fall into the same category, although I've not heard that from the owners I've spoken too.

Perhaps it's time to pick up your tools again and put the market right for the many owners of Aster's C-57 and C-62 express passenger locomotives who would like a proper train to haul, like Mr Gibs535. Even so, I've never actually heard anybody complaining about the Aster Southern coaches here in UK. Maybe it's because Gauge 1-ers over here are less sophisticated and easier to please than their foreign brethren when it comes to running the somewhat representational vintage-made stock with similarly-made model locomotives. I look on these products in the same way that folks view their vintage Lionel or Hornby trains - pleasing to the eye and satisfying the need at the time, without the heart-stopping perfection that seems to be _de rigeur_ these days. 

I'm sure that between us, Zubi and I can find you some drawings of suitable coaching stock - after all, KATO can't base their fine quasi-H0 stuff on imagination.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


----------



## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Wonderfull with some different opinions! But more important. We are going somewhere now  

First: I agree with David L. No need to copy something if you dont know what you are copying. 
So we need to find some good drawings, and documentation. 

Tac and Zubi: Can you help us out here? The coach in question is a "Okha 35" type. made from about 1938 to 1948 (then came the next gen.) Anyway as the link here shows. There is a lot of types, etc. The Aster model has the special "balance beam axle box" system as well. 
http://translate.google.dk/translat...3%82%AA%E3%83%8F35%E7%B3%BB%E5%AE%A2%E8%BB%8A 

(I have added the english google ping-pong translator. Better than nothing) 

If you (Tac or Zubi) can get the drawings, I can make the dxf.flies or whatever CAD files that are needed. Just picked Autodisk (ACAD) since we have it at the office. Hopefully Mr. Leech will later find some time and - mabye? - add them to his list of fine products. 

Art: Ill take the photos, so you can see how it looks like 
Ill get back when I have had a photo session  Then we can discuss what it actually is that Aster has made, and hopefully zubi or tac can help us identify what type it is. 


Regards 

David


----------



## csinc (Jun 8, 2008)

I would like to get some JNR cars also. I can never have enough. If you need drawings of the real cars I can get them. Give me a couple days and I will see what I can come up with.

Who ever is going to be the builder could put me down for 5 or 6 cars. 

-Adam


----------



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Adam
I would like have copy of drawings. I would like to see if the Master Craftsman who did my layout could do the cars.


----------



## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Dear All 

I have taken some photos now of the Coach in question. 
I have put up a gallery at our website, so you can see them there, and if you click on a thumbnail, you will get a bigger version. 

Link: http://www.havebane.dk/?Projekt_C62:%A0Togvogn_til_C62 

I havnt had the time to do some measurements, but they will come, and I will inform you. 

Kind regards 

David


----------



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

David
I took the liberty to go to







Picasa and lighten one of your pics of the Passenger car.


----------



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 29 Apr 2010 02:22 PM 
David
The pics are great. I did download the pics into Picasa and lightenen them for clarity. Man, to me they sure look like they could be converted from the Aristo Heavyweight with a little work. Still would like to have plans if possible for cars.
Thanks for posting the pics
Art


----------



## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

David, before you start photographing, measuring and providing detail for the J&M coach you have, don't you think it would be proper to talk with and obtain the approval of the owner of the rights to build and sell the J&M coach you have already photographed. J&M is in fact in still in business, and the owner of all patterns, etc. is Exclusive Models in the Netherlands. I've needed replacement parts or parts for missing pieces for several of my models and they are all available. The owner is Bram Hengeveld. Bram's email address is [email protected] You will find Bram a pleasure to deal with and I suspect he would be incensed at the thought someone would take his product, measure it and try to reproduce it for their own profit. The Internet address for Bram's company is: http://www.exclusivemodels.nl/.

The path I see being followed here is both unethical and probably illegal. Although I suspect David Leech would agree, I've not talked with him on this issue.

If I were looking for the information you seek, I would start with Bram. He might even give/sell you a license to use drawings, and that would not only speed things up, it would remove ethical and legal questions. What you are considering goes well beyond the "Fair Use Doctrine"!

Copyright infringement is serious business and penalties can be huge, often being far more than the savings you think you might realize.

Regards,

Will


----------



## csinc (Jun 8, 2008)

These are Aster Japanese coaches, not european models. We are going to be working off the prototype japanese drawings, so I don't think it will be any legal issue.

The J&M models seems to have some nice stuff, do they have a website that sells stuff. That schnebel car would be pretty sweet.

-Adam


----------



## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi

I know Bram quite well, and would never copy any of his fine products. He is a nice guy and has done a lot for the hobby here in Europe.
And this ASTER(!!!) coach is in no way to compare with one of his J&M coaches. J&M are etched brass with ultra fine details. The sides on the aster are some sort of white metal casting. Bottom is brass.
J&M coaches are in an totally different league regarding price level. (And J&M don’t make Japanese coaches) Besides this copying a whole J&M coach etching would require that you take the whole wagon apart. I don’t think that many are willing to do that to a coach that coat about 4000 US $ (and then you would have to produce all the fine special tools that are needed for production)

But I don’t really understand you. If I go out and measure a coach in real life up is is then a copy if someone else already makes it? After all I’m making all the drawings, dxf files and g-code for the CNC myself.

Our problem here is that we can't get any Japanese coaches, simply because Aster don’t make them anymore, and the demand is so small, that it is not likely to happen soon. There are only Adam, Art and myself who are interested. If we are very optimistic it is about 30 coaches. So why not - once and for all - make the drawings for ACCURATE JNR coach, make the documentation and find some photos, give the drawings to the public for free and let those who want to build it do whatever they like? I’m into model building, but I’m only making things for myself, but I’m not greedy. If it was a Danish coach I wanted. All we had to do was to make a phone call to the National Railway museum. The price for a scan of the org. coach drawing is 5-20 US depending on size. And they even send photos and a few pages with some “start-up documentation”. Would be nice if we can do the same with this coach, but I can’t speek or read Japanese, and that is why the internet is such a wonderful thing. We find people with common interest, and together we are stronger and creativity bloom!

If someone can benefit/use my efforts they are free to do so. That is the spirit of G1MRA. Hopefully we will have more coaches and more people running trains.

Regards

David

PS: Sorry my crude English. I try to be polite, but some of my words might even though seem hard. That is not my intention - It’s only due to my restricted vocabulary)


----------



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

David
Your English is not crude at all. 
People scratch build, kitbash all the time and I say if you have the skills to reproduce any thing in our hobby and your intent is to use it for personal use and not monetary gain, Go for it.


----------



## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Sometimes when the data available is not present or very little and widely scattered about, one needs to to make due. I needed some rolling stock to go with my Regner Wangerooger. I could only find a picture or two and I knew that my Harzquerbahn cars did not go with it. 

http://www.inselbahn.de/index.php?n...osition=18

The closest I could find didn't really go either, I could easily tell four doors were not six and two axles were not two. So for me I could create something that could be plausible.










Now in a perfect world, people would build the correct rolling stock to go with the proper engines, and sometimes the rolling stock available might influence what locomotive I might purchase. I need a couple of British teak cars to pull behind a "Green Arrow" and I can't bring myself to pay more for the coaches than I paid for the loco.

I lived in Japan for a few years each of the two times I was there, and I had a wonderful time. I'd love to build a few cars to pull behind a C62 / D51 / JNR 9600 etc.

Not sure why I posted this rant other than agreeing to the sparsity of proper rolling stock. If someone creates some proper Japanese coach kits, sign me up for a few.


..... now where can I find some plans to scratch build some LNER teaks..... 10 foot rule is OK.....


----------



## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

David, if the coach photographed is not a J&M, I apologize. I saw the maroon box in one of the photos, and never having seen that box for anything but J&M, I presumed that it was a J&M.

I agree that some non-commercial use of the work of others may not be deemed an infringement, but, other uses may be.

Again, please accept my apology.

Now, if you are going to photograph anything, take a look at the following photograph. It is of a measuring device I use whenever I travel. I simply hang it onto the target and shoot away. Given the fact it has known dimensions, it is easy to adjust the photo to match any given scale. Mine is made out of lexan and is painted black and white. The dimensions from either end are: 2", 12", 12" white with a 4" black rectangle, 12", 12" and 2".

dimensions using adjacent rectangles are: 2", 4", 8", 12", 14", 16", 20", 24", etc. Using proportional dividers, it is possible to convert measurements on any photo to the scale of your choice. 

What's nice is that when folded up, the graphic scale is only 14" long. The scale comes apart at each nut/wingnut.

Note that although crooked in the photo, when properly assembled the graphic scale is in fact straight.










Regards,

Will


----------



## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi All 

Adam just informed me that the Aster Coach is a NAHA, not OHA. We will try to find some other drawings. (and info) 

Regards 

David


----------



## TSClampett (Dec 3, 2021)

GaugeOneLines said:


> You've probably made the mistake that so many do when they get into this hobby, they don't know what interests them so they buy everything they can. You really have to focus.
> I've been in Gauge1 since 1961 and in the last 20 years I have focused on British Southern Railway and its constituents, and for North American Canadian Pacific both in 1/32 and 10mm. I used to have GWR and Pennsy too but now just the two former railways which makes life much easier.
> It also allows you to concentrate in gaining lots of knowledge about a couple of railways and scales rather than a little knowledge of many and becoming a Jack of all Trades and Master of None. ifound years ago that I was spreading myself too thin.
> Think about it David, and decide what you want
> ...


I'm just getting into 1 gauge & that sounds like sound advice. I ordered a set of 4 j&m L&SWR coaches from accucraft b/c I wanted to get a train for my nephews & they had a deal on them if you also got the L&SWR tank engine.
I'm going to try and plan out each purchase like this, b/c I can already see it's next to impossible to find stuff in this gauge.


----------

