# Trestles...stain first or not?



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

What are peoples experience regarding staining trestle bent material before assembly? Does the stain effect the strength of the glue joints? If not, what kind of stain are you using?

I ask because I've seen it done both ways...stained before...and stained after. Obviously, staining before is much easier.

Thoughts?


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I had a horrible build experience with the bridge that I stained first and tried tried to glue later. It just kept falling apart. It was a Howe Truss bridge with lots of butt joints. Never again! If you have lap joints, probably go ahead and stain first.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I suppose it probably depends upon the stain Mikey. It the stain also seals, it will prevent the glue from soaking into the wood, weakening the joint. Myself, I always stain first, as any glue that seeps out from the joint won't take the stain and ends up looking really ugly with big(?) unstained blotches surrounding every joint.

I'd do a test. Stain two pieces of scrap with the wood and stain you intend to use and glue and clamp them together. After it sets, try and break them apart and see how strong they are. Easier than scrapping already-built bents you are unhappy with.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

for me it all depends if i am using glue or not. 
if glueing a later applied stain will have some ugly spots, that need to be "weathered" with some kind of color. 
but as i am trying to duplicate the 1:1 methods of joining, nailing, screwing, bolting and clamping (stapler), i can safely stain the done parts.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Mike...... I have stained my bents by dipping... Built a "tub", filled it with stain and soaked them for a few minutes, took 'em out to drip dry. Used a lot of newspaper to catch the drips...

If I recall, I used Behr's exterior ebony stain on the cedar bents...


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

If you are using cedar or red wood I would not stain any of it. Let nature weather it.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I am definitely in the camp of ''glue first / then stain'' - as required.... 

Was it you Dell that wrote the article for GR years ago under the old - "if only I'd known'' page....? 

seems that many of you have not figured how to simply use a sharp knife blade to gently scrap the excess glue off, after a short set-up period for the glue. It comes right off. Really - it does, and leaves nothing for stain ...''not stick to''..... 

Brush or dip works equally well to add some color!! 

Have fun with your trains!! 

Dirk


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Well...I did the planning today to see what it would take if I mechanically connected all the trestle parts...like real trestles...no glue. Here's the stats... 

23 bents 5' high or so 

2-56 threaded rod â€" 126 screw sets per bent â€" 2896 threaded rods 1â€� long = 241 feet of threaded rod 

2-56 square machine screw nuts â€" 252 per bent â€" 5796 screws 

2-56 washers â€" 252 per bent â€" 5796 washers 

Almost 15000 parts...I gotta think through this more


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Mike - charge ahead with your plans....! 

Think of it as great way to combat cabin fever over the winter months, even sunny CA... 

If you start next weekend, how long will it take? 

Seems like a lot but once you get going, it will be easy and go fast.. 

Go for it!!! 

Dirk


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Get yourself a small Micro-Mark or Harbor Freight cutoff saw with an abrasive blade and set up a stop. You can chop those threaded rods in a jiffy that way. A quick bevel of the ends on a small belt or disc sander and you're there.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

seems that many of you have not figured how to simply use a sharp knife blade to gently scrap the excess glue off, after a short set-up period for the glue. It comes right off. Really - it does, and leaves nothing for stain ...''not stick to''..... That isn't true in my experience using glues like Tightbond or thick CA as the glue penetrates the wood (which you want for strength) in the small area surrounding the wood. You'd have to gouge out the wood to remove it all. But to each his own.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Dwight, based on your preferences then, what methods do you employ for fine wood work? 

Dirk


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Stain first, then glue. On my outdoor stuff (the layout is long gone now but the structures are still hanging together), I didn't stain at all as I built my trestle and structures from scale redwood lumber cut on a small table saw and allowed them to weather naturally. I used Titebond II (III wasn't available back then) and used either a pin nailer or threaded rods - or both. I also used thick CA on stuff like nbw castings on the water tower and bucket crane, and that seemed to hold up as well, even outside. But I live in a very mild climate with no real weather extremes.










The rolling stock in this photo was built from Hartford Products craftsman kits using thick CA back in the early 2000's. Obviously I don't leave them outside, but they're still hanging together. The trestle was built as described above.










The sanding drying lean-to and bucket crane, and the water tower were also built as described above. When this was taken, the sanding facility had been out in the weather for a while and was already starting to darken and naturally weather. The water tower was new here. 

On indoor structures I use thick CA almost exclusively. I do use a liquid cement for some plastics, but have, for the most part, found thick CA works better for me even on plastics. 

I have indoor stuff I scratch built back in the early 80's using thick CA and it's still holding together.














































I still have both the HOn3 car ferry and the roundhouse above. Both were built in the early 80's, both were stained first and then glued, and both were built with thick CA exclusively.

This is just my own experiences. Your mileage may vary.


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## Tenwheeler (Mar 5, 2010)

My preference would be a mechanical fit. i.e. - threaded rod, washers and nut. With ~5 foot high bents, this method would provide the best stability.

Next best - would be glued and 'nailed' joints (pinner or brad nailer would work great).

If you are using unstained cedar pickets, I would let the bents weather naturally.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Dwight, 
Do you still have the plans to the elevated sand loader? That's a neat structure. 
Thanks for the pics and plans if you've got'em. 

John


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't John as I built that some 12-13 years ago. The plans were scaled up from a O-Scale Sequoia Scale Models commercial kit long since out of production, *though they still make it in HO*. I'm sure I still have the O-Scale kit with its plans, but it's packed away somewhere. The water tower plans are still available in an article here on MLS. See the index in the *MasterClass and Articles* forum.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

A lot depends upon the type of stain and glue. Using Tite-Bond III, I glue first. Of course, I also use brad nails to ensure the stuff holds together better! This is what the guys at Bridgemasters recommended to me.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Dwight, Fine modeling there young man! 

I have decided I no longer live in a moderate climate....buckets of water in the summer. and it freezes in the winter, with or without waTer. 

My cribbings are glued only .. no stain. Really thinking trestles should have some protection however. 

Thanks for sharing your work. 

Dirk


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## adir tom (Dec 4, 2011)

There are two types of stains. One is a dye(aniline dyes Mosher) that is water or Alcohol soluble. This can be used prior to gluing as they dye the wood leaving no residue. The other type is pigmented mixture in alcohol and linseed oil. This is an mixture of fine particles and oil when dried. Water based glues will not adhere to these stains These include Minwax, Olympic, and most others sold in the big box stores. Each has its advantage- aniline dyes can be put on first and will show no glue marks. But outside they fade relatively fast as compared with pigmented stain.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 03 Sep 2013 09:26 PM 

23 bents 5' high or so 
OR SO?!!? Holy cow!!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Yep. around 15 to 16 feet long, using 8" spacing!


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep...the trestle goes around the face of my 5' tall waterfall. It's a 5' diameter curve...so about 15' long. 

It goes around this....


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By adir tom on 04 Sep 2013 04:29 PM 
There are two types of stains. One is a dye(aniline dyes Mosher) that is water or Alcohol soluble. This can be used prior to gluing as they dye the wood leaving no residue. The other type is pigmented mixture in alcohol and linseed oil. This is an mixture of fine particles and oil when dried. Water based glues will not adhere to these stains These include Minwax, Olympic, and most others sold in the big box stores. Each has its advantage- aniline dyes can be put on first and will show no glue marks. But outside they fade relatively fast as compared with pigmented stain. 
Thanks....that's exactly the kind of info I was looking for.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Mike, are you building a full circle in front of the falls?


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

no...a half circle...up top. It's the outer loop....and I screwed up...it's a 5' RADIUS curve.


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

My two cents after having an oak tree fall on a ten year old bridge........ 

I never stain until after the structure is built and then I use an alcohol stain weather and maybe color depending on my mood. I then cover with Behr's patio furniture finish. The Behr originally looks like overkill but within three months you can't see it's there. I use redwood exclusively for weight bearing structures. 

I am deeply in love with my air pinner (23 gauge) and there must be a pound of pins in my last bridge (slight exaggeration). Pins are great for making glue joints strong as they keep the joint from moving as the glue dries. They are pretty much useless for long term strength. I have a four year old bridge that is slowly shedding all of it's pins as normal expansion and contraction is causing them to work out of the wood. 

As mentioned earlier, a properly done wood glue joint will be stronger than the original wood - with one exception. End grain glue joints just don't last. The damaged bridge was a Howe truss bridge and the only thing holding the end grains in place was the tension of the truss rods. The bays that were damaged just kind of exploded. 

Where I have an end grain meeting a straight grain I will do something extra to strengthen the joint as the glue just won't last. My favorite method is to drill and pin using wooden dowels - a poor man's dove tail. Where I can't use a dowel, I have found "Micro Fasteners" is a great source for all sorts of nuts and bolts for our scale. 

BTW, the tree that fell over the bridge was an oak about 4"s in diameter that was killed by our drought. The bridge actually won the contest in that once the debris from the south side of bays 2 - 4 were removed, I could have still have run a light engine across the bridge. The tree unfortunately became the further victim of a chain saw.


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