# Aster Chapelon Nord Pacific Revisited



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Some time ago, I commented upon how I admire the Chapelon Nord Pacific locomotive for its livery and overall good looks, while being mindful that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To some, this Chocolat compound locomotive may seem quite ugly - but not to me. ;-)

In addition to visual appeal, there are the innovative aspects of the prototype design, the compounding, the alternate steam path 'simple' starting circuit, Lenz-Dabeg poppet valves, Kylchap exhaust among other things. Chapelon's designs occasionally achieved a 12 % efficiency!

I recognize that there are steam locomotive enthusiasts who may swoon over an air-smoothed boiler casing and the stream-lined appearance; I generally favor the opportunity to admire piping, conduits, valves, pumps, oilers, injectors and anything that is cast, forged or machined and bolted on.

I asked a few people to be on the look-out for me and not long after putting the word out, Andrew Pullen found a very lightly steamed . . . or perhaps even unsteamed model for me, factory built and in overall near-mint condition.

I hadn't been around the hobby for very long when I first saw this model as a highly detailed model . . . and so what to me seemed like a finely detailed model, is by today's standards only moderately detailed.

Let's start by looking at the tender. . .











I have taken quite a lot of photographs of the projects I work on, but for some reason, I neglected to take a "before" picture of my tender and so I borrowed the above photo from The Swiss Rail Collector.

The area of focus for me are these things:

The front of the tender has no detailing and research shows that it would not have been brown even when the sides and rear were brown.

The coal hopper cowling likewise would not have been brown.










Does anyone suppose that the stanchions on the tender deck were made of machined brass and that the handrails were made of polished stainless steel?

Context always matters.

This model was designed and built in 1988 and the approach back them must not have had rivet counters in mind the way we have since seen, not only from Aster, but from Accucraft, Bowande and others in the 21st century. So, I am in no way meaning to disparage a model that was produced in 1988 . . . and a beautiful model in its own right at that. If the Chapelon Pacific were produced today by Aster, it would be detailed more like a 241P and the price would be "up there" as well.

Like many of you, I have fun tinkering and adding detail.

Here we go!










What you see above is, among other things, an indication of a level of detail increase from 1988 to 1991. I am assuming the sponsor of the 1991 model may have said :"spare no expense to increase the authenticity," or some such.

After taking the model apart, I decided not to paint the stanchions or the railings as I wanted a better look than I believed paint would provide.

What I ended up doing is blackening the brass stanchions with Birchwood Casey Brass Black. That took care of half the problem, but how does one blacken stainless steel?

After some research which uncovered costly, messy and dangerous methods, methods that may be akin to a chemotherapy treatment, I found a couple of posts by a fellow in Croatia who recommended a simple approach that works very well when you can remove or otherwise isolate the piece.

Coat the stainless steel in an organic oil. I used Tuscan olive oil! I believe the brand was Lucini. 

Then heat the metal until it glows bright orange and let it cool naturally. I repeated the process several times until I got just the patina I wanted. Done.

The coal cowling looks like it may belong on a tin-type model, so that came next:






























What about the front of the tender?










At the beginning of the process, the front was all brown. What you see above is a work in progress. I am currently thinking that the front should be entirely black.

I am also thinking that all or or half of the tender deck may be black as well?

*Simon* and perhaps others may be able to add some input.

Here are some photos which have influenced what I am doing:

This one from the museum in Mulhouse . . .










It is obvious that the coal cowling is black and there are rear doors and support rods with ball-ends on the outer hatch covers, but not much else is obvious.

And these two from a site called La Caverne du Rail of a model by Magrou (2012.)




























I won't admit to how much time I spent researching this stuff. 

More to follow, of course . . .

Cheers,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,

I applaud all your research and, of course, Chapelon was a true great in locomotive engineering. Keep putting that lipstick on.....That shade of brown, however, doesn't help your effort....too bad your research doesn't allow for you to completely recover the engine in black...might be an improvement...but perhaps Simon can find a picture somewhere that shows that....Naturally, it's your engine and if you painted it black who would criticize you here in the U.S...Now, if you go to France with her.....)

I'm glad you finally found one and good luck with your effort!

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

What's wrong with a little chocolate, Sam? 

Sometime after nationalization in 1938 when Chemins de fer du Nord became part of SNCF, Chapelon Pacifics may have been painted black and then they were painted green.

Here is 231 E22 in green as modeled by Fulgurex (Gauge 1 electric.)

Green SNCF Pacific ex Chapelon Nord

Some were painted gray for the Orient Express.

MTH - RailKing had them available in all colors at one time.

I dare not say more because I am sure to be making misstatements despite my good intentions . . . and I will stand to be corrected by someone who actually knows something. 

Thanks for stopping by,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi fellows: Here is more info on this. Be quite sure that my good friend JVR who vetted the design of this model for the Count was not a rivet counter, as a matter of fact he was convinced that, out in the garden, shelfqueen level of detailing is absurd. And as I said in another post somewhere here he took pride in the fact that his design of the Big Boy contained only 500 parts; where that of the Allegheny which he had no part in contained 700, now see the price difference... 
So this model seems quite crude, it actually is quite accurate. As detailed photos found in books would reveal. Who is going to see the front end of the tender while running? With the roof extension it is practically impossible to see. 
Now for answering some of the questions on the prototype. Although there were rules about painting lining and lettering on French railways, much like on PRR for that matter, there were actual differences and variations according to sheds where the locos were stationned. 
First there is the Paris Orléans 3500 pacifics of 1908 which were painted in artilery gray (a rather light gray with black frame cab roof and smokebox front) then there is the Chapelon modification of same in 1929 the engine he modified , by the way was called "Chollera" by its crews owing to its extremly bad steaming before mods. these were painted in a rather darker shade of grey it seems. A very good model of this was made from an Aster by my good friend Chris Ludlow who was chairman of G1MRA, it can still be seen on the G1MRA site photo section. Making a PO version of the Aster model requires a lot more work than just painting though as the tender although of basic Nord design was different and it had the earlier eliptic coal bin which is so esthetic (see the Rivarossi model) there are domes to add, front of engine to modify, etc, etc. Then in 1934 the Nord ran some tests pitting the Chapelon against the Nord super pacific (Oh when is Aster going to turn this one out???), the Est Mountain and the PLM 2-4-1 C (the 2-4-1 P prototype of 1933) the Chapelon did better than the super, the Est mountain did about as much but broke down and the PLM did a bit better but with a much greater appetite. So the Nord ordered from the P.O 20 Chapelons, which the PO modified for them in their shops, which was a good deal for them since they were in the midst of a Pennsy type electrification of their main line. The Nord loved them so much they had private industry build a batch of them new. This is the model Aster copied, it has the rectangular coal bin and doesn't have the eliptic one. (the Nord ended up having both types). These were all painted Chocolat with yellow striping and red buffer beam (the official Nord livery for compound engines). Then the PO had another 20 made that were gray and that they kept into the SNCF era for their lines still steam hauled, they also streamlined one. This is when the Est had a few made also, these were painted black with red lining. The Est didn't like them too much except for the Troy shed, and they didn't last too longon that region. One got an incredible streamline shroud reminiscent of a killer whale. During the war most Nord engines kept their Chocolat livery as time wasn't exactly right for general overhaul. Engines that did get repainted would have been in black. After the war (officially as of 1938 but few where overhauled before 1940, they were new then!) the Nord engines were painted SNCF Green with yellow striping and red buffer beams, smokebox, frame and cab roof were painted black. Officially tender tops were painted black on the SNCF, but I wouldn't be sure that the Chapelons De Caso tender were. But Thierry Magrou being one of Frances top modelers, I would say that it is a pretty good bet he got it right. The thing that spoils the Aster Chapelon is the gaudy striping its much too thick and oftern in places were it wasn't common to see it, you can take it right of on the steps for instance, boiler striping is fine, keep it carefully, but take it of the running boards.Paint the wheel rims black. Don't do your treatment on the stailess steel wheel rims they are rim insulated! Redo finer striping if you know how to use a bow pen. If the Nord crews had a reputation of keeping their engines polished and spotless, tenders on the NORD were usually not their concearn and they were often changed from one engine to the other... Usually all grimy. However up front it was something else, often polishing the buffer heads with polish for pots and pans! Look up LM Vilains book on NORD engines and if you want 1 and a half foot by two close up photos of chapelons get: "Vapeur sur la région NORD" photo book by J H Renaud at La vie du Rail, its of the early SNCF era but it is full of stunning photos. And of course for SNCF post war times they should be green.
By the way talking about paint jobs do note that the Chapelons appeared on the NORD after 1935 at the earliest (except for the tests) so they never knew the brown golden arrow pullmans which were painted blue in 1932! A very common mistake.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Oh while I think about it, I forgot to say that the NORD tenders didn't have the levers for opening the water hatches from trackside of the 2-4-1 Ps, as you can see they insted provided a comfortable stairway to get to the top of the tender. It seems this arrangement survived right into electrification times although the NORD was electrified in 25 000 Volts AC... So that is not a detail which is missing. the end photo of Thierry Magrou's loco is a good source of superdetailing the coal boards can be added easely and the gate on the right tank side is to keep brickets piled up neatly. The fall plate could be added although I don't miss one myself. Actually out in the garden our gauge one looks like N gauge seen at table top height! But we have movement, sounds (or music in the case of compounds), natural light, good friends and a glass of rosé which the N boys don't. But keep up the good work. 
By the way American steam buffs might be interested to know the Chapelons which weighed 101 tons and a grate of 4.33 square meters were as powerful as the Pennsylvania K4 weighing 140 tons and with a grate erea of 6.42 square meters. But what they saved in coal (and water ) they most likely used up in the shops although they were known as a reliable design. I like both philosophies, on the Pennsy coal was abundant and cheap but labor was not, on the NORD it was the opposit. Also the tractive effort must have been better with the K4 which had an adhesive weight of 61 tons to the PO s 57.3.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Simon,

As always, your input is an education and much appreciated. I will refer back to your comments in future.

As far as the Nord tender goes, I am leaning toward painting the upper deck black, but leaving the rounded edges of the rear portion brown as you see in the Thierry Magrou model and as also seen on the U1 tender.

MTH also modeled the deck black:










I will also paint the front all black after adding more detail. Suggestions always welcome.

If you look at the Fulgurex electric SNCF green painted version (link above) it appears as if the SNCF later added the remote operating levers as shown on the U1 tender, but not during the time of the Nord. I may take the time to make the weighted ball-end levers that were meant to hold the hatch covers open but without damaging the deck.

When it comes to adding detail to the locomotive itself, I will have more to say and to show in time.

Your comments about the lining are duly noted. I have used a bow pen back in my mechanical drafting days (on vellum,) but I am not sure my hand is steady enough to do a good job even with the crutch of a steel rule with pad under.  We'll see.

Have a look here:










and










I remember reading, Simon, that JVR argued for reducing detail and complexity in favor of a more reasonable price and overall good performance in the garden. I also remember reading that the rivet counters often won the argument especially in later years. 

It will be easy to add some of the details that are missing from the Aster model while not interfering with the overall performance.

In recent years, Aster seems to have made some very nice castings for the injector assemblies, but the injector assembly is entirely missing from the Nord model. if I can figure out how to do it, I'd like to draw a 3D model and get Shapeways to produce it just for the shear fun of doing so.

Currently, my SX-2 mill has a DRO system which I built from a Shumatech kit and with Chinese scales. But eventually, if time, health and money hold out, I would like to go CNC. One way or the other, I will have to learn which CAD program will be best for me to adopt for output to go to Shapeways or perhaps later into a CAM program for CNC.

More to follow . . .

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

SNCF Chapelon tender as painted green and modeled by Fulgurex:










Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi Joe: I forgot to precise that of course the round top of the tender sides should stay brown, like on Magrou's model. I also like super detailing but have found that with all the handling and maintenance required by live steam it is better to leave some details out. But of course I have no claim to holding the truth in the matter. Now about the mechanism to open the water tank filling lids I am formal: These engines never got them! Don't be fooled by the many similiarities between a 37 cubic meter tender and a 34, 36 or 38 cubic meter tender these were all diferent and were alocated to different locos on the SNCF. Although they were all based on the De Caso design. Which, it may interest American fans to know, was just an adaptation of the Vanderbilt tender principles to the French loading gauge, meaning less height and width so a rectangular form, with rounded corners to save from rusting, permited to haul as much water as needed within the French loading gauge (somewhat between the British and the German or USA eastern RR. loading gauge). It was adopted thanks to Chapelons insistance on nearly all tenders built after the mid 1930s. 
Now for the Injector. My good friend John Butler made a very accurate reproduction of that, including a mod to make the screw for the water tube into the loco much more discreet. Let me ask him if he would have a drawing of that, you are right in that this is a very important detail which is missing. I unfortunatly at the present do not know how to use autocad or other computer drawing programs so I am limited in that respect, at the present. As I can't post photos here, do read my message I sent you and send me a mail I will be able to illustrate things a bit better.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Simon, Thank you. 

I have ordered "Vapeur sur la region nord" last evening and it has already shipped so it will be something to see in a couple of days. I found copies of "Dix decennies de locomotives sur le reseau du nord: 1845-1948" but have not ordered yet. Pretty steep price! Was this work ever translated into English I wonder? Well drawings and photographs do not need translation anyway. 

One thing always to be concerned about is that finding multiple and similar examples of something does not necessarily imply accuracy. There could be one accurate model to see, but then ten different and identical inaccurate examples that trace back to one poor source. So quantity does not imply quality.

The Magrou model shows the ladder on the rear of the tender to be painted brown. I doubt this can be accurate from seeing quite a number of B&W photographs of the tender in service. The preserved 3.1192 has the ladder black, but even preserved locomotives may not be painted as the locomotive was most often seen in service.

Note that the Magrou model shows a drop in the tender deck height forward on the left side or driver's side and the Aster model shows this drop on the opposite side. *shrug* In the end one must accept that a model can be authentic in appearance without achieving perfect accuracy.

Here is to me an ugly locomotive:

During their visit to France in 1938, King George VI and Queen Elizabeth proceeded from Calais to Paris in Pullman car hauled by a streamline locomotive

You may click on the link above for more photos of 231C78. Some will see only beauty. 










I will be pleased to receive information on the injector assembly.

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

The Vilain book is old, but he was THE reference in steam circles when steam was still around, I met him quite often and he had known Chapelon quite well and was a disciple of sorts. It is extremly usefull in that there are a lot of works drawings reproduced, and most of what he says can be verified; which isn't the case any more with most French steam authors of today. Also there are really great photos of the whole evolution of NORD steam from the early Stephenson imported engines right up to the 2-3-2 U 1, with very good photos of old NORD types long gone in the last days of steam. He also explains all the importance of the research that Du Bousquet (now you know where my code name comes from) had done by Barbier on steam passages that led to the Nord having the most efficient steam locos in the world for their size for quite some time. This research by the way had been done by most American builders at the time (just after the turn of the century) explained in detail by Frederik West for instance; but had not been done by most European designers with internal pipework and through the valves actually throtling the engine. It also explains the importance of the deep and long narrow firebox which the Nord favoured and which inspired Chapelon with his conversion of 4500 series PO pacifics into the famed 4-8-0 both PO 4700 and SNCF 2-4-1 P. In sorts the Nord pacifics were enlarged 4-6-0 with the narrow firebox so long and so heavy that they had to place a bissel truck to carry it. Notably the 2-3-1 C which you illustrate in its streamlined form.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Simon you are causing me to become Vilain-ous! 

It looks like the L.M. Vilain reference is available only in French and not in any digital format for easy translation:

Vilain, Lucien-Maurice Woldcat IDs

So . . .

I ordered a copy from Amazon.fr. It was twice the price at Amazon US and almost triple if ordered from the UK.

More as things develop.

Cheers,

Joe

PS: Je devais commander en français et mon français est pas si bon. Il est possible que, á la place du livre, je vais obtenir six croissonts et unpot de marmelade d'orange!


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Did they really call the color Chocolat?


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Chris Scott said:


> Did they really call the color Chocolat?


I would be shocked if the answer were to be "yes," but we'll have to see what Simon has to say.

I started referring to the color as chocolat only because that is what the CF du Nord brown color evokes for me. When I think of "chocolat," I also think of Juliette Binoche and when I think of Juliette Binoche, I smile. 

* * *

I spent half an hour looking for the correct name and did not come close. If I were a native French speaker I'd have had a better chance of solving the mystery, but even so, the name that CF du Nord used a century ago seems like it may be hard to find.

I think the French use marron for the color of things that are brown and "brun" when referring to living things like brown hair or eyes? But I have seen the Chapelon Pacific color referred to as Nord brun as well.

We'll have to wait for Simon or another native French speaker to weigh in.

Interesting info here:

Colours in French

brun chocolat would be coffee brown.

Cheers,

Joe


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

This topic suddenly reminded me of Chris Ludlow, a UK ex-pat living in France (outside Paris if memory serves) having retired there some years ago following his passions for painting and French railway locomotives and such. He is a past Chairmanship of G1MRA. I think if anyone would know the authentic color name he would. If for no other reason than his painting below that I found on his website. Link to his website: http://www.peintredurail.com/ 








To the north
Oil on canvas 45 x 90 cm
"In its distinctive chocolate livery, Chapelon Pacific number 3.1197 forges its way along the Nord main line from Paris towards Belgium. This locomotive was one of the series built new in 1936 for the Chemin de Fer du Nord, after the first series of locomotives of 1934, which were rebuilds of former PO (Paris-Orléans) Pacifics. The class totalled 48 machines and they were extremely successful in service. Locomotive number 3.1192 is preserved at the Cité du Train at Mulhouse."

I learned from his website that he recently publlished a book, Fumées, Voyages, Images, contains 46 paintings: http://www.pether.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/CL_PeintreduRail/pages/artist_frameset.html


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Chris,

I am pleased that this thread reminded you of Chris Ludlow and thank you for sharing. 

Personally, I always appreciate it when a thread takes an unexpected turn here and there and becomes richer for it.

I couldn't help but notice that Chris rendered the Nord with a black tender deck as well. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Chris is my best friend, he showed his first painting at my GTG and it is my friends and I that encouraged him to submit it to the prix Schaeffer, a French railroad theme painting contest which he won hands down. the rest is history.. He has fantastic talent both as painter and modeler. He has made many paintings for the US also.
On another subject : Welcom to the club! When I started to model PRR about 6 years ago I quikly built up my library on PRR research books. And nine time out of ten the cost of shipping these to France came out at more than the books price... But Vilain books beeing the reference books on the subject of the old private railway companies of France are very much in demand and have never been reissued, France is a Niche market now...
Most experts agree that the Aster Chocolate is a bit too redish It is more what painters would call a Van **** Brown. That said no one living today has seen the real thing anyways or nearly, so how could any one verify this... It is not like Britain where there were all those pre grouping models made by Basset Lowke before WW1 even, that permited historians to determine, quite authentically, what old railway colours and liveries were. We know however one color slide made by an Englishman at Calais around 1938 showing a Chapelon in Chocolate. And yes the NORD refered to it as Chocolat! It appears that it was the livery of the valets of the Rothchild family who owned a controling interest in the Nord railway. At least thats the story we hear in France. It was used on compounds almost exclusively. If you have a translation issue, just ask me and I can help being bylingual and having lived 9 years in the US and being an active Model railroader then, I can probably tranlate.


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

*Reg Stocking*

Two dozen years ago I wrote a paper for a history class which included some tidbits I'd picked up on locomotive aesthetics including paint choices. My understanding is that the Nord was a Rothschild property and the passenger locomotives were finished in the colors of the Rothschild jockeys' racing silks. The PLM colors were those you see Napoleon Bonaparte wearing in portraits because the PLM was the Imperial Route. Are these pearls of wisdom or old railfans' tales?


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

These are quite correct from what I haver been able to research, indeed it wasn't the Rothchilds valkets, you are correct but their racing team silks. From the PLM it doesn't surprise me after years of reading the PLM as the imperial Route I finnally found out why studying, of all things the history of the P.O.! The Paris Orléans was created during Louis Phillipes (who was the duke of Orléans) reign (before the 1848 revolution), with the intention of following the Loire Valley up stram of Orléans to join up with the Lyon à la Méditerannée (alredy under construction at the time)at Lyon. But as after the revolution Napoleons nephew crowned himself emperor, this extension never came to be... For years the PO petitioned the empirial governement to build a line to Lyon but it was never given, probably because the emperor couldnt stand the idea of helping out a company that had been largely financed by the Orléans family, his rivals! So as you see it really was the Imperial line! Instead the Orléans was alowed and encouraged to serve Bordeau and Nantes Saint Nazaire.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Before we leave the subject of paint, here is an interesting find:










As a result of a Google search for "Chapelon tender," I eventually fell upon a thread on a French discussion site, the topic of which was the announcement back in 2009 of HO models of the Chapelon locomotives by Roco. There are about 336 pages of discussion with about 25 or more posts per page and the discussion follows into 2016. I read about 45 pages and probably will not read many more. 

The owner of this paint can containing dried paint could not shed any light on its provenance.

I am not going to add many in the way of details to my Aster Nord until the two books that I ordered come in. I can work on a few details and make further observations in the meantime, some of which may be of interest.










A couple of things . . .

The paint I used is a satin finish epoxy paint which has proven to be durable and immune to alcohol spills and probably other chemicals as well:










When I was building my Aster Clan Line, I made quite a few modifications including just about everything that Derek Pollard did - and more - as he published in NL&J. After relocating items on the tender lid [deck] and filling the holes left, I tried several kinds of paint before settling on a perfect match to the Aster original. It turns out that I painted the tender deck first with flat black and then a coat of satin varnish did the trick, until . . .

Sometime later I spilled some meths on the tender deck and the spill damaged the varnish which was not "solvent safe." This is when I researched epoxy paints and came up with this VHT stuff which is very hard, scratch resistant and chemical resistant as well. It has a bit more gloss than I would like and I will eventually experiment with de-glossing, probably with super-fine steel wool, unless there are better suggestions from members of the group here.

Moving along . . .

Thus far, I have cut down 2/3 of the height of the "button" which allows the drawbar to uncouple and I have painted what you see above in black.

Edit: I have been unable to appreciate (I fail to see,) how the designer came to the conclusion that this tender needed some sort of cut-out on the right side as you see above (appears left due to point of view.) I believe this was simply a mistake and I am not yet committed to correcting it, but we'll see. From the photos I have seen, the cut-out or thinner wall aspect of the tender side-wall should be on the opposite side.

When I am finished, the top of this tender will be black as it appears to be in Mulhouse on 3.1192 and as modeled by MTH, Magrou, et al.

But here is someone I will ignore who sees things differently:









Oh well . . .

Here are some shots of the Rocco HO model which may be helpful and I do have *more questions for Simon* 










First question? What are the three brass levers or valves used for as seen on the right side of the tender?










A blow-up of something that caught my eye:










I am thinking that the black pipe on the right side may be a tender water level gauging pipe? I am guessing that, one opens the spigots one at a time from top to bottom to determine at which level the water is at?

Finally for now, another rendition of a portion of this this model under present focus:










Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I've been back to the *L R Presse* site a few times now:

*Forums LR Presse - ROCO La 231 Chapelon en HO*

With over 3500 posts on the subject there is bound to be some good information as well as misinformation found within. Determining which is which can be challenging, not only for those who lack specific and arcane knowledge, but for the experts as well.

A significant number of the posts appear to be argument over one thing or another with a dollop of upset, humor and sarcasm sprinkled in here and there . . . a thing like that could never happen here, right? 

On the subject of color, how does one know for sure a hundred years down the road what the actual colors appeared like to the human eye at the time the subject locomotives or other train stocks were in service? We may know something about how they started out from the available documentation - when it is actually available. How much can we rely on old photographs? 

There is more modern art and talent then science applied in the restoration of a centuries old oil paintings. We know what we see today is only an approximation of what the artist painted and what fortunate contemporaries saw. Context should always be taken into account in my opinion.

Pigments and solvents used early last century were much different than what we use today . . . and the finishes faded and weathered differently. And then there is the reality that sheds and shops often took liberties, using what they had available at the time or in some cases doing as they please.

One fellow pointed out that the Nord brown as seen on 3.1192 in Mulhouse is a color that has been applied and reapplied long after the loco was in service. With a degree of obvious disdain, this same fellow remarked that the 141R (Mikado as imported from the US and modified for French use,) is currently painted with a modern green automotive lacquer! Any modeler who attempts to trace authenticity back to Mulhouse is on a bit of a fools errand, or so suggested he.

I used to do some 3D modeling, flight dynamics modeling and texture painting (using Photoshop, up to the 100 layer limit,) for the game/application Microsoft Combat Simulator (WW2) once upon a time and these sorts of discussions often came up in relevant online forums as well. Some folks would be willing to "go to war"over what they believed to be an issue of accuracy. It was the rivet counters versus the folks who want a reasonable degree of authenticity. We do the best we can with what we have . . . without making a life-long study out of each project.

I argue for authenticity. One can achieve an authentic result without having to be a slave to what is - in reality - often but a "notion" of accuracy.

Cheers,

Joe


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

It's quite an attractive locomotive, and yet sophisticated in its function too.

I appreciate all the effort going into this thread.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

It is true Joe that the authenticity of the colours used in Mulhouse are questionned by experts, it seems that the brown for instance is a bit too redish and should be closer to a Van **** brown, This is an artist colour name and you should be able to find it at any art store. It wasn't so milk chocolate it was half way between milk chocolate and black chocolat. So say the experts of which nowadays, not many lived before 1938... 

Also Precision paints of Britain who used to offer very nice French railway colours (very close to Humbrol in quality) can still make some for you A friend in the GIMRA had some made for his 2-3-0 D which he redetailed (ex JVR loco too) and sold me a few cans as you have to order quite some quantity (spray cans).

I myself am somewhat knowledgeable because I still strive to model those old private railway companies of France, however, I don't indulge in perfect realism because many things would just fall off along the wayside or during transport and I feel that Aster models from that era satisfy my crave for realism. I find the latest French Asters very nicely detailed, but it is problematic because many of these details suffer during operation, transport and repair sessions, on the 140 C for instance the steps bend and break off; the two posts on the engine front (grabs) fold and break off and so on. 

Mind you the Vilain book is very interesting and authentic reading but has few but very good photos. the other book has really nice close ups but it is from the early post war SNCF times. But these engines did not change much except say for the brown to green. The lining is pretty much the same.
By the way the Nord region of the SNCF did not use the PLM type number plates on the cab sides, but painted the numbers on the side in yellow just like the Nord did. Don't forget the tenders were extremly grim, the drivers never cleaned them like the locos.


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

The paint supplier M. du Bousquetaire suggests is www.phoenix-paints.co.uk. Go to their home page, then to Log In, and find the Contact Us. This is one seriously dedicated firm.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Reg Stocking said:


> The paint supplier M. du Bousquetaire suggests is www.phoenix-paints.co.uk. Go to their home page, then to Log In, and find the Contact Us. This is one seriously dedicated firm.


Thank you.

I tried to buy paint from Phoenix Precision for another project in August of last year and discovered much to my dismay that the UK postal system does not allow paint - even paint in metal pots - to be mailed overseas.

Here was my question to Phoenix:



> "Do you sell tins of railroad paint for delivery in the US? If not, do you have a distributor or reseller in the States?"


Answer:



> "Sorry but no on both counts.
> 
> It is currently proving extremely difficult to ship outside the UK."


Round Two Question:



> Greetings, once again,
> 
> I appreciate the "no on both counts" answer and I realize that the issue has to do with Royal Mail regulations.
> 
> ...


And the Round Two anser:



> It is possible to ship via DHL etc., However, the fact that it is covered by the dangerous goods regulations means that a package that would cost in the region of £10 - £20 to ship to the US goes up to the £60 - £70 region.
> 
> It is the most frustrating situation imaginable and has cost us rather a lot of time and money to get nowhere.
> 
> Sorry


 Here in the US we can even get aerosol cans filled of explosive materials (I.E. paint) shipped with ease. 

I'd be happy to learn that there is a legal way around the restrictions.

I have not found anyone in the US that makes UK or Continental hobbyist rail paints.

Other suggestions welcome.

Cheers,

Joe


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

A couple ideas come to mind.

First would be to acquire the ingredients critical to the color from the seller in the UK, and assuming he will share with you the proper recipe, mix the finished paint yourself with the more dangerous component sourced locally. If it works, it might also serve to give the color long shelf life. I did take here the assumption the dangerous part is a volatile solvent, rather than the pigments.

Second would be to go back to the automotive world (since those paints tend to be suited to live steam models so well), but by finding a color matching code such as an existing model of car or Pantone shade, that a paint shop makes using a computer. Some of the German auto brands have a dark brown, for instance Jatoba Brown in BMW appears similar.


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

I have not found anyone in the US that makes UK or Continental hobbyist rail paints.

Other suggestions welcome.

Cheers,

Joe[/QUOTE]


The only thing I can suggest Joe, and what we do here, is to get a friend who is travelling to the UK to bring your paint order back in their luggage. 

DM-K
Ottawa


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thank you for your suggestions and I will take these into consideration for future projects.

By trial and error, I was able to mix enamel paint to match the dark green and the Tuscan red for my Aster K4s and then to apply with an airbrush. Thus far, the chocolat brown used for this Aster model is acceptable to me and there are no visible damaged areas. At some point I will have need, no doubt, but I am OK for now.

* * * *

While I am awaiting the two books ordered, I have taken a few small steps. Simon mentioned that the shiny metal wheels will need to be blackened if one wishes fidelity to the Nord prototype. (In some cases later on, the SNCF seems to have used "white-walls" as we may refer to automobile tires in the US, but in the days of the Nord, the wheels and tires were dark.) Green Chapelon Pacifics sometimes have white wheel rim coloring and the 232-U1 certainly does.

A while ago, I discovered that Birchwood Casey Brass Black also darkens some alloys of steel and in the case of this tender, I got lucky:










I prefer what you see above to painting, as the coloration is pleasantly and realistically not uniform while remaining attractive. Remounted on the tender, one cannot see any variation in any case. Seven out of the eight wheels seem to be made of one type of alloy that takes on a very slight copper patina, but one of the wheels seems to have some zinc content. Can you find the "odd man out?"

In any case, I am satisfied. 

The pilot bogie and the trailing truck on the loco seem to be made of the same alloy, so I expect darkening those wheels will go well. The three paired drivers may be stainless steel and for these I have ordered a chemical treatment kit from Caswell.

*Caswell*

I do not have an ultra-miniature ball-turner for my lathe so the prospect of making 2 mm brass balls is seen as more of a pain than a pleasure for me. To add the ball-end rods to the tender water hatch openings, I decided to order some miniature marine tapered brass stanchions. I will fill the railing holes with soldered brass wire, cut the stanchions to size and thread the end opposite the ball in a sub M2 size as appropriate.

See here:

*Cornwall Model Boats*

This is a good supplier of small fittings as well as any other things for maritime modeling and some of what they have is of interest to us here. They have over 200 kinds of miniature stanchions available, for example.

Here is what I will use as a donor stanchion:










It is hard to imagine not being able to find a 1:32 or 1:20 scale stanchion on that site.

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Joe: The SNCF in particular the NORD region of the SNCF often painted wheel rims white (like white wall tires). I haven't seen photos that would lead me to beleive that the NORD did that also, although it could possibly be a catch over practice because precisely of the fact that it was very specific to the Nord region. It is difficult to spot on black and white photos and that's all we've got for the NORD railway.
I just checked in my books on the NORD, the close up shot of the Chapelon is in another book it is in the: Paris Nord et sa Banlieue, I was sure it was in the book I told you, which is still the best photo book on the Nord in steam. If you want I can scan it for you so that you can see it. There is a very close up look at the injector and it's piping and it is full page photo of the Chapelon being serviced by its crew at La Chapelle.
One thing that may interest fans who want to model the Nord region of the SNCF is that the Prussian non coridor bogie coaches presently being turned out by Maerklin used to be employed on a Semi-Direct St Quentin to Paris express (it may likely have originated in Maubeuge) in solid consist after the war. Of cours one would have to repaint in SNCF colours and letter but these should be Hubner quality and a lot cheaper and more authentic than J & M s or Rapide Nord coaches. I have a photo of this available but cannot post it.


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Even after the context and detail discussion, it remains a handsome machine, in both large scale, and _that other scale_ of 1:1, '12in per foot', or something, whatever they call it these days.

While well done detail impresses the eye, on an operating model the survivability of that detail achieves higher prominence as a real life practical matter.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I've been collecting relevant photos for some time now as I come across them rather than to log the urls and hope to get back to them later.

Here is a classic, easy to find on the net:










The lamps on the Aster model could stand replacing with something a bit nicer and larger. More on that another time.

In addition, others which show typical wheels and drivers:




















































The photo immediately above could represent either a chocolat or green livery? It must have been taken a bit later than 1934 as the lamp positions are in transition?

Clearly later on, when the locomotives were SNCF green, in many cases but not all, the wheels were given the white treatment:





















*So what color is the locomotive in the photograph below?*











I'll post some photos and/or images of what I have on the injector assembly another time. Simon, if you have drawing with dimensions in whatever scale, I'd be happy to have a copy from you. More via email.

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

on30gn15 said:


> Even after the context and detail discussion, it remains a handsome machine, in both large scale, and _that other scale_ of 1:1, '12in per foot', or something, whatever they call it these days.
> 
> While well done detail impresses the eye, *on an operating model the survivability of that detail achieves higher prominence as a real life practical matter.*


Agreed.

By the way, I endorse your signature gn15, but I don't know your name to address you properly. 

One of the things that I take into consideration when I detail something Aster, with few if any exceptions, is that the materials used must be brass or copper or steel or perhaps aluminum with ss hardware. If practical, the items should be removable and in every way consistent in quality with what Aster would have done had they done it! Things ought not be able to be broken off or dropped in such a way as to possibly cause a very expensive and tear-inducing derailment. 

I hesitate to show what I've done with the RMN or the 9F in this thread but I may post one example.

All comments welcome and if it looks like I may be getting something wrong, please speak up. Thanks.

Cheers,

Joe


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

StackTalk said:


> *So what color is the locomotive in the photograph below?*


This photo I believe to be taken at Gare du Nord in likely the 1950's or early 60's This looks much like standard SNCF green with yellow lining. 

The engine is under the SNCF numbering scheme, so that eliminates any likelihood of the NORD Chocolat scheme. Also the "Rapide" coaches behind the engine tell the date very well.

Similar photo below: Same train, same location, different engine (231 G) Photo date: 1960


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I agree that the loco is most likely green though it does look brown as rendered. People argue about these things. 

The SNCF numbering, the position of the electric lamps and the white wheel treatments suggest green to me. Also the NORD name is missing from the deflectors.

Note that the Fourgon truck is a solid color and it does not look blue?

To my uneducated eye, the coaches look like bleu and creme CIWL coaches. I am unaware of Rapide coaches that are colored this way, but I would defer to those who know more than I do . . . and that is a very large list of people. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

The Rapide/OCEM coaches are to the right of the engine in both photos. That alone shows enough that the photo dates after NORD ceased to exist.

There is no doubt the engine is in SNCF green as the facts are against it being NORD Chocolat! I doubt any Chocolat colored engines carried the SNCF numbering scheme for anythe transisional length of time before being repainted. 

Lamp style, coaches in background and the fact that it is a color photo of a fully electrified Gare du Nord further dates the photo even more to post Second World War. 

The color shown looks like an aged SNCF green as in the photo of the 231E on the transfer table posted earlier.

As Simon stated there is a decided lack of color photos (read: none) of NORD engines painted Chocolat in service to compare to.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thanks Ryan,

I didn't think to look to the right. 

I have not found any in-service photos in color on the Net though there are a few loco-only photos.

I appreciate your contribution and your interest.

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

There is one famous photo made by an Englishman in Calais who had Kodak colour slide film in 1939. It is a famous photo. I will scan it and send it to Ryan who could perhaps post it. Now about the above photos: The engine is under catenary (meaning post 1958)so it's green all right. The sncf green had a good deal of unburned sienna in it giving it a brownish shade, + a good deal of steam oil helps confirm this brownish tendency. 
Sorry boys, there isn't a Rapide Nord coach in site in either photos! The Chapelon is hauling the SNCF container baggage truck which was rebuilt right after the war with a steel cabin in the center and would be 306 green. Then a Flèche d'or pullman followed by a Côte d'azur pullman and another unidentified pullman behind with probably a diner after although I canot vouch for that, behind the diner would be coaches. with stainless steel Carel Fouchet (the French Budd lycensee) coaches and some WL from the Blue train. On the adjacent tracks are Forestier coaches these were post war semi streamlined lightweight coaches probably inspired by the pre war german shurtzwagen, but built in a very unique steel caison style of construction developped by EST railway coach engeneer Monsieur Forestier, hence the name.
Ditto on the second photo except that there is, most interestingly for me, a unique photo of a pre war OCEM second series four wheel baggage car behind the K. This baggage was made for the ETAT and the EST only, I built a fine model of one in its original condition with cupola and long footboards, and had never found a photo of one used on the Nord region thus far! So you made my day and I am a happier man because not only was it used on the Nord but on the Golden arrow to boot!


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thank you again, Simon; you are enriching this thread with your special knowledge and experience.

One thing that is certain is that one cannot judge color of old photographs that were taken in color just by what the eye sees. Even in modern photography, something that is green can appear to be purple in sunlight and with reflections, but our brain often "corrects." sometimes unconsciously, for what we know to be true.

Specific Knowledge and research allows us to deduce from context, but then there is the matter of hue and saturation, depth of color, etc.

All part of the fun.

With any luck, I will complete adding a few details in the time it takes Bill Allen to build a locomotive model from scratch. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

From Simon:

Nord 231E in Chocolat at Calais in 1938:


















Will also forward his resume on French coaches to anyone interested, just drop me a PM or email.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

It's the light which can make a huge diference and the film sensibility to colours especially in the older days. That is one of the things which really fascinates me about Chris Ludlows painting is you can get a huge palet of colours just in the reflections of light on a boiler clading or a dome. And he really masters that extremly well. I paint a good bit, but this is real mastery. And he also knows his subject being a modeler and live steamer in gauge one.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Ryan,

For some reason I am not seeing any image in your post?

I would appreciate the coach info.

Thanks,

Joe


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe,

It should be there now. Seems the MLS photo gallery code does not play nice with the forums that much.

Car dossier on the way to you


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

It's all good now, thank you Ryan.

* * * * *

Goodies I have been ordering arrived today . . .

Stanchions
Caswell Black Oxide Gel Kit - (For blackening stainless steel)
3D rivet transfers
Brass footplate sheets from Accurate Armor (Scotland)

What does anyone here do for 3D rivets?

Micromark used to sell a precision embosser but it is no longer available.

There are one or two embossing tools available from the UK suitable for thin brass but none that seemed as good as the non-existent Micromark item. I thought I would experiment a bit with 3D resin transfers, but these will be used (if at all,) only on the tender front.

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Joe,
Northwest Shoreline still show their Riveter tool in their catalogue.
I have used their 'punch and dies' that go with this tool for many years, but I made my own using my drill press and a home made sliding table to go with it.
I have only used it for styrene sheet and has always worked well.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hey David! Wow that looks like one of the stage scenery cars? I should have made that model, because I was a stage designer. I spent my whole career except for the last few years before retiring designing what goes into those cars, except that during my days it was already done by trucks. It looks really nice, could you post one or two photos of that car and the one behind for our appetite for such gems, please.

For riveting in brass and aluminum I use the older model made by Metalsmiths in the UK (uysual disclaimer) it works with a lever but I use a small hammer in metals with a light touch. I just flip the lever in the back and hold the punch in place with one hand then tap it lightly with the small hammer. For rivet on overlapping plates I use old offset plates; You must clean up the offset film before with an abrazive track cleaning type of eraser. It works well. It was designed for smaller scales but with oversize rivets and works OK for gauge one. I must make some new anvils on the lathe for bigger rivets if I need them one day.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I agree with Simon that the rivet job on those cars looks really good . . . as does the rest of the work product that the rivets are attached to! 

I'd rather avoid using resin transfer rivets, but they do come in such varieties now and they are probably OK for places that are not subject to handling. Still, I don't like the thought of having plastic anywhere on a live steam model.

The Metalsmith tool is one of a couple available in the UK. I'll continue to hunt for a better solution. I'm not contemplating going into "production." One of the nice things about the old Micromark-carried product was the precision sheet feed vernier mechanism that it had to insure accurate spacing and repeatability.

Here is what you need, David:

*Computer Controlled Rivet Embossing Machine*










Cheers,

Joe

EDIT: Thanks for the lead on the Northwest Shortline product, David. This product (when used with their press,) seems similar to what Micromark had to offer once upon a time. It also seems a bit more advanced than the Metalsmith product and is probably comparable to what GW Models makes (UK.) GW Models does not have a Web presence.

I do have an SX-2 mill and it would be possible to make a punch and die fixture to be used on a mill, but I am too lazy for that, especially given that I am not committed to scratch-building at this point. 

EDIT x 2 - After David shows us another example or two per Simon's request, we had better get back on topic or some folks will be cross with us.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Yes, sorry for the deviation.
The cars are actually the Horse Express cars that the various race courses and stables used on the Pennsylvania Railroad.
The bodies are aluminum with the rivet detail added with styrene pieces.
Cheers,
David


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I personally like it when a thread wanders here and there, but then I don't think I have any Teutonic ancestry, 

Those horse cars look wonderful, David. Did you happen to use transfers to apply the rivets, something like these?

*Archer 3D Surface Details*

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Joe,
Thank you for the kind words.
As I said, I used the Northwest Shortline riveter punch and dies in my drill press.
I tried Archer decals a while ago, when all they had was O scale and found that the rivets just weren't tall enough.
They said that there was a limit as to how much resin thickness they could apply.
They suggested laying one on top of the other, but then I had double the thickness of the decal film to hide and the rivets were getting too wide with double thickness.
The thought of having to do line upon line of decals didn't excite me, but I'm sure for some it will work.
Maybe now that they have G scale, things are better?
Cheers,
David


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David,

Thanks again. I just can't bring myself to apply resin rivets to a live steam loco.  The Northwest Shortline Sensipress/riveter set-up looks like a good way to go.

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hey these cars are wonderfull David and these deviations are also fascinating so just for once lets tolerate this a bit. One important word of warning David, although I know that you have much more experience than I have in the matter: I had placed a band to delimit the roof from the body sides on your cars that I built as kits. These were cut from styreen upon which I had applied the kind of double edge tape used for milling and theoretically very solid. 

Well I am sorry to say that when left out in the sun all afternoon (A very common occurance when you run garden railways.) The differential in expansion rates of the styreen and the aluminum and the fact that most adhesives melt with heat ( a phenomenon I was familiar with as set designer when I used these to make new kitchen sets for addvertisements with old ones by scotching in new formica over the old one. During shooting the spotlights just kept melting the double edge tape and we where constantly re applying them back... what a nuisance!) made that these bands bowed out and had to be reapplied constantly. I even got into the habit of parking that rake in the shade of trees, nowhere near the siding , but on the main and in a cutting to boot. I am now curerntly in the process of replacing them with aluminum bands that a model supplier had done for me by a guy who owns a guillotine and epoxied to the bodies. A long and tedious process with repainting with primer, tuscan red and black with considerable masking. But afterwards I will be able to enjoy these cars in all weather.

So don't leave them out in the sun!


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Please read my notes in page 3 in the "adventures in wheel slip" thread about the balancing of the Chapelon for optimum operation. Very important on how to improve the performance of theat beautiful loco.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Simon, your suggestions about adding weight to the loco for better traction duly noted. 

* * * * *

Last night before bed I did a little more surfing and for those who may be enjoying this thread, the result of which is a bit of fun to share. What I tell my guys at work all the time is, before you Google something, spend some time thinking about the query. The better or more precise the query, the more satisfying will be the result.

I am getting ready to start modeling the front of the Nord tender as what Aster gave us for this model is little more than a blank canvas. 

Why bother? 

Simon has already commented on what we all know to be true and what JVR was thinking at the time this model was designed: It is rare that anyone gets to appreciate front details on the tender. Save time; save money and put one's attention to detail elsewhere.

Why paint a picture? Why plant flowers that will only die off anyway. Why do anything? 

I noticed with the tender coupled up with the locomotive that the footplate of the loco does not line up with the horizontal flat of the tender front and the step attachment points do not line up? Is this a mistake?

My query last night was "Nord Pacific footplate."










There is no Aster modeler's mistake here. The step attachment points do not line up and the front of the tender will need an elevated plate in order to model a hinged foot-step as seen when one looks at the photo of 231E 41 with care. The photo above provides some additional info as well.

Detail of the grab handle
Detail of the safety doors
The fact that the steps are stamped steel with open treads (see shadows cast,) a thing that I will ignore.
There is a deflector screen of some sort on the cab roof. See below:



















The photo above also shows what the top valve looks like on the tender water level - water column pipe.

What is that screen for anyway?

One thing leads to another and searching for info on SNCF 231E 41 provided some additional finds:










Original is 1600 pixels wide so I can expand the injector area:

















I'd say a pretty good close-up of the "jar-type" individual valves that make up the injector assembly.

What does the partially disassembled coal chute look like?










In my imagination, the rear-most jug is quite clean inside and is filled with fine Cognac!

I now see that, what looks like three levers on the right side (left in photo) are indeed levers. What they do, I do not know?

* * * * *

Some of what I found above came from an LR Presse discussion of modeling ex-Nord SNCF in HO gauge. A fellow was putting more detail in H.O. than we sometimes see in Gauge 1.










Not a very pretty sight, but it does show the levers (one missing above,) and the overall position of components.

In the background are the etched brass sheets used to make what we see below:










































The above photos provide more evidence that Aster put the cut-out/cut-down on the front of the tender upper deck on the opposite side to where it should be. There should also be a "set-back" to the front tender wall on the left side.

To accurately model the left side of the tender I would have to do quite a bit of surgery on the tender front, cutting away metal on the left side (what we see on the right side in photos.) Cutting up the tender is something I will not do.

I'm not going to go through the trouble of adding "all of the above," but shame on me if I can't add a bit more detail to enhance the blank canvass.

Here below is a SNCF 241P tender that actually does mirror the image of what we see on the Nord tenders:










This is enough for one post. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

It is normal that it be a mirror image because the SNCF tenders were derived from the De Caso Nord tender. Chapelon was head of the steam locomotive development program roughly through the war years until around 1949 (I don't remember the exact dates) and he liked De Caso's "vanderbilt" tender design adapted to French use. So all the "unified locos" which came out during his tenure had these tenders. It is for this reason that he had a hand in improving (mainly beefing up the too thin PLM frames and improving the steam passage throughout) the 2-4-1 P and this in turn made it into quite a succesfull and reliable loco, although not anywhere in the same class as his 2-4-0 P or better his 2-4-2 A1. 

The screen over the cab extension is a SNCF must for post war steam because of the intense electrification under way after 1950 under Louis Armands direction. It is just a safety screen to prevent and remind the fireman of the danger of going on top of the tender to bring down the coal frozen in the coal bin. It is certain that this was installed after the war therefore if you are modeling a NORD chocolat version it is unnecessary to model this (which by the way, would be a real nuissance to control the loco.) I noticed that when the Pennsy electrified in 11000 volts AC it strung it's catenary way higher than the French one whose ordinary height was 5 meters. Most likely because of the then common practice of brakemen riding and walking on the roofs of freight cars. I see a lot of this in early 1950 promotional films on you tube. On the nord region it was 25000volts AC and anyone coming within a foot or so of that hot wire was in danger of instant death.
Cheers. Simon


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

We don't want to be anywhere near 25KV lines to be sure!!!

5 meters seems a pretty low height and we know also that all cable sags over time and is reactive to temperature and current flow.

I agree the screen would be a nuisance anywhere but the display case.

What about the third photo, Simon? Is that a green loco that looks brown or is that a brown loco, do you think?

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

No it is a green loco with the boiler shrouding removed, the same operation they do at Strasburg from the photos I have seen. To see what shape the boiler is you have to remove the shrouding and the mostly asbestos insulation under it. The only diference is that in Strasburg as the locos had to stay in that condition outdoors for a certain time (I beleive they are to be under cover soon now, if not already) they painted the real boiler black or dark green loco enamel. Wereas what you see on the Chapelon is the rust accumulated over the years it was a monument at a street intersection!
Yes the 5 meters is pretty low and it is what prevents doing double stacks on European freights. A descision made years ago when the priority was to electrify rapidly at the lowest cost. Thats why European locos had those plaques with a red lightning all over them. It seems that under the SNCF the steps up to the tender tops of the Chapelons were condemned and levers were installed to open the water holes. They were rightly obsessed with the habits of firemen to climb all over their engines beying extremly dangerous in electrified territory.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Simon,
The THIRD photos is Deflector-2, the close up of the cab roof.
Looks brownish to my eyes!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Yes but that is just the problem whith photos... It is of the engine that stood as a monument at Tours near the shops that made the chapelon modifications to these engines, dating from before the first world war, in the '20 and '30s. It is now being restored to working order by an association. Which is why it is being stripped. The weathered SNCF green turns grayish after years of neglect, plus some rust that may be seeping through the paint may make it look brown but it is green. But I do see what you mean though, it sure looks brown in that photo. No the only Chapelon which is in Nord livery is the one at Mulhouse. Unlike the NORD 3500 or 2-3-0 D which was at the Nene valley in England and my friend John Butler helped save with some budies, which is now in Chocolat at Longueville while the one in Mulhouse is green. 
Have another glass , you will see it green! Cheers, Simon


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Looks like Simon is right again.

Old photos seem to repeatedly demonstrate for us that we cannot rely (at all) on our own eyes when we are attempting to determine color.

Here is where the third photo appears:

*[ROCO]La 231 Chapelon en HO - page 191*

Other good shots there as well. The 337 page discussion has lots of info in it and . . . Google Translate makes it easy to follow.

I wasn't meaning to trip anyone up, but I had not remembered where I captured that image until I searched again for it using the Web image I.D.

According to the Google translate of the post it is a photo of 231E 41

So unless the SNCF left 231E 41 brown for a time, or the poster misidentified the locomotive, it had to be green in the photo, right?

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Besides I just know that 41 is green. It was left outside in Tours for twenty or thirty years. The grey one in elevation is of one of the EST experiments to do away with ear muffs. They had some pretty corny ones at one time. And you now know that one Chapelon stayed in East Germany where it underwent quite a lot of transformations including dismantling the Kylchap. One wonders why with the Tchekoslovacks just nearby, they could easely have gotten spares. I think they tried pulverised brown coal firing on it.
The last photo shows why they apparently kept using the stairs to the tender top during SNCF days, apparently the La Chapelle shed had dedicated steam tracks without catenary, although they aren't far away as you can see.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Time for an update . . .

Progress has been slow, but I am in no hurry. The ride is at least as important as arrival at the destination.

It's probably no secret that I've had a 232-U1 in the background on some shots of the Nord tender . . . and the U1 is serving as a bit of an inspiration for detailing the Nord. 

One of a number of differences between the U1 and the Nord from a modeler's perspective - is that there is little to nothing one can do to a U1 to improve upon a model that has been described as "Saski-san's Magnum Opus."

This is not a U1 thread, so more about that another time perhaps 










The project is starting to take a little shape, no?

It began to occur to me that, aside from cosmetic improvements, there is the possibility of making a functional improvement as well.











Why not mill out the solid areas under the hatch cover and flange castings and make them functional?

Above is a work in progress. The flanges are held in place by M1.4 x 2.5 mm screws.




























The original bypass outlet pipe was not visible when looking into the center hatch which accesses the tender pump. So now, as is the case with the U1 tender, one can take a peek at the flow from the bypass return by lifting the left-side hatch. The scale rods with ball-ends act as nice handles for the rather large crew members who are 32 times larger than the ones riding the locomotive. 

I don't particularly like the way the original center hatch sits loosely on the tender deck, so a more positive latching mechanism is in order.

The side hatches can also be used to add water without disturbing the center hatch.

Next up will be detailing the front end of the tender. I'll get to the locomotive itself before 2016 comes to a close. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe said

"One of a number of differences between the U1 and the Nord from a modeler's perspective - is that there is little to nothing one can do to a U1 to improve upon a model that has been described as "Saski-san's Magnum Opus."

Yes Joe you are correct. There was a deliberate policy that at the time of the creation of the 232 U1 that this was to be the best ever Aster that could be managed. Fulgurex - the then European distributor and their design consultant John van Riemsdijk, together with Sasaki-san chief designer from the Aster Hobby Co went all out for the best that could be done with the technology existing in 1991 with no expense spared! 

This locomotive is a great rarity and if you ever see one then grab it with both hands. Aster made another 4 cylinder compound more recently - the SNCF 241P. This too has everything faithfully reproduced and a superb specification. However for many its the 232 U1 that remains the best ever Aster - apart from the Big Boy perhaps!

Thanks to Joe, Simon and others for a very interesting thread.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Very nice job on the hatches Joe, very neatly done and machined.
One thing which is missing in the Aster Chapelon model is the casing around the safety valves and whistle detail. It's a leftover from the Paris Orléans originalk loco which Chapelon saved. Beyond his genius, Chapelon was a true railfan and was a crack historian of the steam locomotive and it's evolution. Which is why he was sofascinated with US practice among other things. But he liked the idea that there should be something of the P.O. left in his modified engine. TheChimney cap moulding or cornice around the double chimney is another reference to it's P.O. origin.
When he designed the 1-4-1 P he was basically doing a tutorial on how a PLM compound (very different from the Du Bousquet - De Glehn layout) should be treated and they were most succesfull locos and his only really new loco ever built (All of his others were conversions). He was proud that since this was going to be a unified type (what the germans would have called an einheits type) it would incorporate features from every region: P.O. stack, PLM overall design (modernised PLM Mikado) and cab, Nord tender and smoke box front, Etat Bissel truck, Est long travel valves superheater and smoke deflectors. truly a SNCF design.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Andrew, Thanks for stopping by and adding your observations. 

The U-1 is an inspiration to be sure. If it were not for the U-1, I would likely not have been inspired to "improve" upon the Nord. I wouldn't have seen the opportunity in such stark contrast.

At the moment, I am still making parts for the tender with more to go, but a couple of teasers only:










and:










Now that I have bothered to take close-ups, I see that the one rivet out of line is haunting me. 

I may learn to live with it. Even my patience has its limits. 

The finials on the grab rods are two-piece construction. The ball-end is a brass bead from a craft store and the adjoining rings were turned on the lathe. The outer diameter is about 0.090; the smaller diameter is 0.065 and the hole is drilled 0.048 to accommodate the 0.043 brass rod. 

The grab assemblies will mount with M1.4 screws and hopefully I can share the mounting holes with the hardware for the doors and for the water column gauge not yet made for the fireman's side.

Off to the right are steel faux buffers for the front of the tender, threaded M2.2

Thanks to David L's recommendation, I bought the Sensi-press and rivet embosser, but I'm just getting used to it. It's not easy to line up the rivets on small pieces. The above having been done by marking the location with a scribe.

My current thinking is to spot the places intended for rivets with a small center drill and with the piece being clamped on the mill table where position can be determined +/- a thou or so . . . and then use the penetrations made by the center drill to align the punch. We'll see what happens next week.

Simon. Thanks for your observations and suggestions as well. 

Two La vie du RAIL books have arrived as well as the Vilain one, so lots to look at for inspiration. Has anyone modeled the 141 TC? As tank locos go, that one is quite interesting owing to the Cossart rotary cam valve control mechanism similar to what has been seen on Bill Allen's Algerian Garratt.

When I start on the locomotive, I will give thought as to how to possibly improve upon another blank bit of canvas that JVR & Aster have provided in the area of the safety valves and whistle detail.

I seem to be suffering from "may as well syndrome," a thing many of us fall prey to from time to time. As long as things have been taken apart, one may as well do . . .

I needed new tires for my Austin-Healey 3000 and I had a thought to have the wire wheels trued up by a well-known expert named Allen Hendrix. Turns out some splines were worn beyond repair, so new wheels . . . and axle extensions with matching splines needed to be changed as well. By the time I got done, I had also rebuilt the wheel brake cylinders and balanced and replaced the brake drums. I'd installed new shoes as well as new axle bearings, seals, brake lines and flexible hoses, fixing hardware, etc. 

It was then that I noticed play in the universal joints and . . .

I hope no one ever asks me to pull a tooth for them because . . . well . . . you can guess what may happen. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

StackTalk said:


> I seem to be suffering from "may as well syndrome," a thing many of us fall prey to from time to time. As long as things have been taken apart, one may as well do . . .
> 
> I needed new tires for my Austin-Healey 3000 and I had a thought to have the wire wheels trued up by a well-known expert named Allen Hendrix. Turns out some splines were worn beyond repair, so new wheels . . . and axle extensions with matching splines needed to be changed as well. By the time I got done, I had also rebuilt the wheel brake cylinders and balanced and replaced the brake drums. I'd installed new shoes as well as new axle bearings, seals, brake lines and flexible hoses, fixing hardware, etc.
> 
> ...


As long as the Lucas electrics are working well!!!!!

I find that the problem with extra close up photos is that you do tend to see all that is WRONG with the item, instead of all that is RIGHT!

Your work looks fantastic.
I did find that you do need to have a mechanical devise to keep your work straight when using the punch.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I beleive the U1 benefitted from the fact that an O gauge model had been done prior to the gauge one model and that this model was very fine because the gauge O market is very demanding here in France (and has in fact stollen the show from gauge one since many years, but we are working hard to correct that!) The prototype had been done I understand by Alain Baldit a fine modeler who is the director of the Rambolitrain museum in Rambouillet.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Note:

My two posts are out of sequence as the first one was supposed to be second. I thought the long one was already posted when I made the second one. Good thing I did not refresh my browser or all the effort would have come to naught.

~Joe


One more picture:










I added this one only because of the appearance difference caused by a lighting change.

Brown sides look pale green.

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Time for an update to keep the interest up. Mine and yours! 

Progress is slow but steady. 

I hope to finish adding details to the Nord tender before Bill Allen completes his next three scratch-built locomotives! 

* * * * *

One of the issues with the Nord tender is that the rectangular plate that sits over the tender pump is thin and has no attaching mechanism. It just "sits there" and is subject to bouncing around and shifting out of place. I had thought to develop some sort of latching mechanism that would slide into a groove on one side and then snap in perhaps with some thin spring steel on the opposite side. Oftentimes, simple is better and so I hit upon a simpler solution.

Also, if one looks at previous photographs, one will notice that the cover plate is lacking rivets!

I suggested previously (and David Leech confirmed,) that the rivet embossing tool takes practice to use and perhaps if I drilled out the underside with a center drill, lining up would be easier.










Top views left; underside views right.

The lower pair of photos shows the original Aster cover plate drilled from underneath with a center drill. The result was a bit sloppy.

The upper pair of photos shows a new plate which has been drilled with a 0.021 mini precision drill bit sourced from "Think and Tinker."

The original plate is made from brass with a high copper content and is soft. As it was also too thick for the rivet tool, I removed some material prior to drilling. The punch for these rivets is only 0.010, so a center drill even if very small, provides a loose fit. The precision drill bit worked better than the small center drill lin this case.

Three of the 21 faux rivets are slightly out of alignment despite taking care to pilot drill first. Do I need to make a third attempt?

See below:









The rivets look better painted.

Rather than to develop a latching mechanism, I decided to take .200 brass stock and fashion a precision weight/plate attachment. The rectangular shape clears the cutout in the tender deck by only a few "thou," so once attached to the upper plate, the plate will have nowhere to move and the added weight alone will keep it in place.

The slot you see in the center is to accommodate the upper reaches of the tender water pump in case it "motors" forward or back. The other milled areas allow the M2 nuts to be fastened to the stanchions.










So . . .

What we have looks like this:








I am thinking I can get away with not having to make a third plate as the three rivets that are out of place are no longer obvious when looking at the tender as a whole.

There is a thin line between being a perfectionist and in being an obsessive-compulsive.  I may go for third try to get some additional practice with the rivet tool, but not today!

What else do we have today?

It turns out that I had to remake the faux buffers:










When I close-coupled the locomotive to the tender, I realized the clearance was likely insufficient to allow for negotiating curves, so they had to be made shorter, like it or not.

I mentioned that, in order to have the foot-step in proper alignment with the tender foot-plate, an apron would have to be fabricated:










The upper photo shows near-perfection that belies the mistakes hidden below. 

Measure twice;cut once was not enough in this case. I measured, but then I reversed the piece when I drilled. I new my mistakes could be covered up so cover up is what I did. The Scale-Link Euro style tread-plate is soft soldered into place. The pieces were first thinly tinned and then soldered with an American Beauty iron.

Here we see it in place:










Hinges are ready to accommodate a foot step.










For the footstep, I remembered that I had a Ryobi hand-held air dryer/gun that provides 1050° F hot air and so after tinning, I just heated the too pieces with hot air to complete the soldering.

I guess I am about half-way done with the tender details. 

More to follow . . .

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Not able to edit the above for some reason, but in one case "new" = "knew"

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Time for an incremental update to let you know that I am still among the living and that I have been moving along at my usual slow pace. 

*Embossed Rivets*:

As it turns out, I have outsmarted myself! 

The NWSL Sensi-Press with Rivet attachment table is a good and useful tool and well worth the money spent, but the best course of action when purchasing it is to use it as intended.

My initial reasoning for deviating from the instruction sheet was as follows:

The little machine has a table that is fixed in the "Y" direction, but moves incrementally in the "X" direction. There is a knurled knob that moves the table 0.050 per revolution and it is marked in thousandths. One can expect an accuracy of perhaps +/- .002 in the x direction and one should get a perfect line of rivets if the piece is clamped well.

I have a milling machine with a DRO (digital read-out) and I can get better accuracy with it than I could possibly get with this little machine, right? 

No, wrong.

Here is where the fallacy derives. Using the mill to spot-mark the rivet locations with a center drill accomplishes the goal of getting precise marking, but then trying to align the punch and die on the rivet tool with the spot-marks, is a hit or miss proposition. It only takes one or two rivets to be out of line in a line of rivets to spoil the result and the +/- .001 now may be +/- .010!

A better way to go is to ignore the fact that one may own a mill with a DRO and use the rivet embosser as intended, clamping the material to the table so that it cannot move out of line in the "Y" direction and using the vernier to move in the "X" direction.

If one has a height gauge, it remains a nicety to layout the rivets.

So this:










Can become this:










What you see above is intended to become the opening for the coal chute with a new false front plate for the coal load area.










and










Parts waiting to be installed:



















Here are close-ups of the water column water level gauging pipe not yet painted and installed:



















Work remaining on the tender?

Remake the water fill hatch cover
Add a back to the coal chute and fill it with faux coal. 
Add doors
Add additional three-valve panel as needed
Reverse the top filler panels so that the drop is on the opposite side of tender front.

I won't bother cutting up the front of the tender and adding the stacking area for the briquettes. Authenticity without perfect accuracy is my goal. It should look "about right" when I pronounce it finished.

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi Joe:
I just got back from a big trans america trip (New York to Tucson and back on Amtrak) So I missed out on some of your latest posts, you are making a real work of art there.

It was nice of Andrew to add some words about the U 1 and it's special place in the Aster line up. It not only looks good but It works a charm and is very powerful. 

I am currently making a De Caso tank however I am not capable of working as fast as Bille. I recently finnished a very complex part a braket which holds the return crank on the Cossart Valve gear and also the crosshead guide at the rear. A good friend helped me with the brazing, as I hadn't done it before and there were 5 components to hold together in place while brazing. A very good introduction. It is also a slow process because I am still learning how to machine and make a lot of things. 
The engines used to serve my home town in the North suburbs and I remember spending entire afternoons at Gare du Nord watching their fascinating valve gear from platform side. I rode behind them, in them and now want to make a model of one. It will have slip excentrics inside valves and a cosmetic Cossart valve. The Fulgurex model which I bought to maybe help finnish sooner, is a lot of junk, everything on it is fake, not made for running, a shelve queen. I will use it to copy from, then sell it to someone who collects them.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Has it been 18 months since my last post in this thread?

I reckon so.

*WARNING!* I am about to ramble. 

When last I posted, I was getting pretty close to finishing the tender, or so I thought. 

As it turns out, I learned from Simon and others that I was about to overlook a few things that would ultimately make more work for me, but in the end, I continue to believe it'll be worth the trouble.

Let's have a look at the section of the tender that faces the loco cab as it appears today:











As seen above, the footplate step is not in place, but it is complete and set aside. Only someone who is quite familiar with this model will notice that I have reversed the two top plates that are installed on either side of the coal load and, I cut a partial step on the left side of the tender (your right.) Aster had originally put in a "pocket" instead of a step and it was placed on the wrong side of the tender. On the prototype tender, the step goes all the way down to the deck and it represents a place on the tender where charcoal briquettes are stacked. The gate assembly as you see it would be used to hold the stack in place.

Notice that the original Aster model has five slightly raised rectangles on the top plate and set back a bit. These raised rectangles are meant to represent the tops of a stack of charcoal briquettes. More about these briquettes later.

Below is the right side detail of the front of the tender:











Please excuse the dust!

Here is the opposite side:










What remains to be done to the front?

I will likely redo the coal load.
I will model the stack of Aniche briquettes.


Top view:










Here you can more clearly see the representation of briquettes at the lower left of your screen.

Front quarter view:










The side view shows an issue that offends some modelers and will result in my completely disassembling the tender after rebuild of the locomotive is complete. The lining is much thicker than is should be. The tender will be at least partially repainted and relined at some point.

Here is a current rear view:











That big red thing near the center of the rear is supposed to represent a small electrical female connector box for the rear lamp. It is at least 9 or 10 times the cubic volume of the prototype item. There ought to be three of them, in addition to the one near the center, there ought to be one on each side of the rear buffer beam.

It should look more like this:










or this:










Thanks to Simon, a year or more ago, I was introduced to Hans Peter Werren and Hans Peter was kind enough to provide a number of his very fine castings, among them are correctly sized 1:32 electrical fittings. Included in the cast parts I obtained from Hans Peter are replacement lamp housings.

The rear of the tender will be relined and it will have proper electrical receptacles fitted in addition to a new, functional lamp assembly. 

What about those briquettes?










Here is what they look like individually:










The work you see above was completed a year or more ago. What have I been doing concerning this project in the meantime?

That's enough for now. More to follow!

Cheers,

~ Joe


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

Joe, Great job on the tender and glad you have followed up on your last post. The Chapelon Pacific is my favourite loco and have yet to modify my tender in the same way but I am hesitant to attack my pride and joy. At least I will do the doors at the back of the extended bunker and paint the tender top black and should the cab roof on the Aster be painted black also? Yes briquettes are an important detail on French loco's so great to see you are onto it. Keep up the good work and I'll follow with eager eyes.


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## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi Joe

Nice to see you still are working on the beast! And it looks very promising.
It it possible to have a compilation of your findings at some time? (My own Chapelon still waits in its box). Im not jet sure if im going just to build it or it will be modified from day one.

Regards David


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

ferroequinologist said:


> Joe, Great job on the tender and glad you have followed up on your last post. The Chapelon Pacific is my favourite loco and have yet to modify my tender in the same way but I am hesitant to attack my pride and joy. At least I will do the doors at the back of the extended bunker and paint the tender top black and should the cab roof on the Aster be painted black also? Yes briquettes are an important detail on French loco's so great to see you are onto it. Keep up the good work and I'll follow with eager eyes.


Thank you for your comments.

Yes, I believe the cab roof should be painted black up to the beginning of the curve. Such is my intention. Also, the early cab roof was modified by the SNCF (a change in the ventilation scheme) . . . and what we have on the Aster model is the later rooftop of 231.E.22 which is how 3.1192 was renumbered later by SNCF. Earlier in this thread there are some photos showing how others modeled the roof of the cab. I may not remove the later vents.

The coal load shroud is not too hard to do by itself. In addition to adding the doors, I decided to get rid of the ugly seam that goes up the middle of the front, add the rivet detail and the grab handle at the same time. I fashioned a piece of .020 brass. added the embossed rivets and attached the plate using JB Weld. The JB weld was used at the edges and then faired-in after it hardened. The result is quite good, I think.The extra plate allows for a "tab" which holds the coal load in place more firmly.

Details were presented earlier on in the thread.

Simon and I have engaged in some email discussion on various subjects including the use of briquettes on the French railways. As I understand it, high quality coal was relatively scarce but more so at the run-up to the second world war and Aniche and a couple of other companies made these conglomerations. Aniche briquettes were used by the Nord.

From a French site:

"In 1902, the Aniche Mines Company acquired from Mr. Dehaynin its two briquette presses, around which the Somain factories were built, which was called "la briquette".

These briquettes had many advantages; weight: 10 kg, its shape: parallel-sided that facilitated its handling, storage and compatibility.

It also had a very good calorific value and an ash content ranging from 3 to 10% according to users. Among them, there was the SCNF, but also the Navy, Merchant Navy, industries requiring the use of steam, even craftsmen such as bakers or distillers cognac!

At the best of times, Somain's factories produced 400,000 tons of briquettes a year. These "Aniche BS" briquettes (BS meaning Somain briquette) have traveled the world. If you find them, keep them, they have great value."


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Beautiful work!
I doubt i will ever be able to afford a Aster


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David_DK said:


> Hi Joe
> 
> Nice to see you still are working on the beast! And it looks very promising.
> It it possible to have a compilation of your findings at some time? (My own Chapelon still waits in its box). Im not jet sure if im going just to build it or it will be modified from day one.
> ...


Hello David,

It is an advantage to have an un-built Nord in a box!

A little story which may be of interest . . .

As you may know, Hans Peter Werren has detailed his Nord and his example has been an inspiration to me. He began the enhancement project "right out of the box."

I mention this because he also painted and relined the model as he progressed through the build. This is a more efficient process than building it and then deciding to take it apart to start over.

As I began work on the tender, for some odd reason, I thought that I would not be putting as much work into the locomotive itself, but as I learned more, I realized that the loco would have to be completely disassembled and quite a lot of work would be required in the end.

In for an ounce; in for a pound as they say. I refer to it as a "may as well" syndrome which I will discuss a bit later. It is akin to a mental illness I would suppose. 

As to a compilation of findings? Can you explain a bit what you wish?

I do intend to document most steps as I go and I will share the sources of information and inspiration.

*Nord Brun*

Earlier on within this thread, we discussed the supposed color Nord brown as seen on 3.1192 and other locomotives preserved at *Cité du Train* in Mulhouse. In short, the consensus was that there is no way of knowing whether the color we see today is accurate, but Simon opined that the original color _may_ have been less red and a bit darker.

In my discussions with Hans Peter, his view was consistent with that of Simon.

H-P sent photos of his model (while on a shelf in a not bright room) and his model looked quite a bit darker.

Originally, I had no intention of repainting anything that did not need painting, but once convinced that relining would be beneficial - if not absolutely necessary, I felt "boxed in" for a repaint. 

I had sent my tender body shell to an outfit in Texas who would match up the paint for me. When I received the paint some weeks later, I was not satisfied with the match. It was too light, but the hue and sheen were good. The company redid the paint for me a second time and it was closer, but still not quite right.

While the above process was ongoing, I connected with Hans Peter who agreed to lend to me his very precious sample color plate so that I could get the color right on the third try!

Low and behold, when I held up the benchmark plate to the original Aster color under various lighting conditions, it matched nearly perfectly. 

I mentioned this to Hans Peter and he remarked that, as he had stripped the model early on for painting there was no occasion for him where he could lay an Aster painted piece alongside his repainted model.

Lighting has a lot to do with how the model appears. Under bright artificial light, it is a lot brighter red-brown in appearance.

All of this discussion leads me to the following conclusion:

If a person is going to repaint everything, do what you feel is right. Make the model darker or less red . . . whatever.

If you do not wish to repaint everything, then match the Aster color if you can.

Here is an early sample of what I mean:

It's "necessary" to fabricate a shroud for the safety valves and model whistle. 

"What whistle," you may ask as there is no whistle modeled by Aster for this product. I had to model a whistle (not yet complete) and the shroud.

Here is what the unpainted shroud looks like:

Top and bottom first:



















And now loosely in place on the naked boiler:




























Now here it is with the third batch of paint applied after a coat of etching primer:



















The boiler casing is in Aster original condition (and color) and the safety shroud is painted with matching paint. 

I have looked at this under fluorescent light and LED light and sunlight and it is close enough finally to satisfy me.

What this means is that I can leave the boiler casing "as is," while installing new lined boiler casing bands.  

I do not have to repaint absolutely everything.

Why wouldn't I want to repaint everything? The answer to this question will be found in another post. 

Cheers,

Joe

Edit: It's a brave man who puts up full page width photos . . . as these close-ups show more than we see with our eyes. 

Every speck of dust is visible.


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## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi Joe

Thanks for the quick reply.
Ill contact you with a PM shortly 

Best wishes
David


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi Joe,
You are now challenging some of the most anal train guys I know.....and there's something about that and 'BS' and the color of the engine but I can't seem to bring that into focus.....

Ok, there's also the detail of those screws on the front of your tender being way way too big...if you want them to be like the 241P...1.4mm is the absolute largest allowed!! 

Ok, now that have dispensed with that...nice and courageous work! 

But I can see your 'for sale' ad now.... (not that you ever will, of course)..."I must have at least 10K for this Nord (..if you don't know what that is, then I'm not selling to you....) Note--since I have at least twice that in costs and sweat equity......"so my BS and my price are both firm....I mean...err......"

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David_DK said:


> Hi Joe
> 
> Thanks for the quick reply.
> Ill contact you with a PM shortly
> ...


Saw your PM and will respond.

Is anyone else having any difficulty seeing the images?

All the new images and most of the old ones are being hosted on a private site that I lease. You should be able to see all of them or none of them.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

boilingwater said:


> Hi Joe,
> You are now challenging some of the most anal train guys I know.....and there's something about that and 'BS' and the color of the engine but I can't seem to bring that into focus.....
> 
> Ok, there's also the detail of those screws on the front of your tender being way way too big...if you want them to be like the 241P...1.4mm is the absolute largest allowed!!
> ...


I really enjoyed your post Sam and yes . . .

. . . the only way anyone will get this loco at a "regular" price is from an unsuspecting widow, lol.

I am doing myself a bit of disservice by taking photos with a macro lens and then blowing everything up . . . including the dust that I can't see with my naked eyes before I 'click' the shutter. My eyes aren't as good as they used to be either.  

I know you are pulling my leg, but that doesn't stop me from pretending to take you seriously. 

On the screw sizes . . .

Over the course of the last 18 months, I have found miniature screws in the UK and in Germany and currently, I have in stock the following sizes:

M0.5, M0.6, M0.8, M1.0, M1.2, M1.4, M1.6, M1.2 and M.2 and above.

This may help:










So what does an M0.8 screw and nut look like on a small part?












. . . and what about a couple of M0.6 screws?











At this point, just for spite, I am not going to tell anyone what these parts are, but a Nord Owner will know.

Some follow-up . . .

A bit more on where the briquettes go:










Presumably, sometime after Fulgurex commissioned the live steam locomotives from Aster, they commissioned electric models from another supplier, possibly a Korean builder?

This photo illustrates a reinterpretation of the cab roof and painting among other things:










Over time I will provide additional guidance about how I found and assembled the information I am using as source material.

Cheers,

Joe


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## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi Joe
Regarding pictures that can't be seen. It looks like the screenshot below.
Regards David


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David_DK said:


> Hi Joe
> Regarding pictures that can't be seen. It looks like the screenshot below.
> Regards David


David,

In the image you furnished, nothing is missing. Where those red rectangles indicate broken images, there are no images. The first image in the post is the tender side with screw sizes indicated.

There appear to be no words missing in the section you show, but somehow the formatting looks squeezed. I'll do a total image count on the previous page and you can check to see whether anything is missing.

~ Joe

Edit: Post #71, 10 images; Post # 74, 2 images; Post # 76, 7 images; Post # 80, 5 images. 

You may be missing some emojis? <--- That's it. You are missing two emojis where the red rectangles are located. Here is another:


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,
Very nice work on the French chocolate.. I stand corrected on your detailing! I, of course, couldn't help but give you a little chocolate over all this fuss you are making....

I do appreciate the effort, the education and the good humor you have provided...If you ever come out to the midwest, we might let you run that piece of chocolate on our layouts....but, then again, we might not...)

Seriously Joe, great work and your Nord is fun to see!

Sam


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## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Joe

You are right. I'm missing the emojis.

Thanks for your help

Regards David


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi Joe and everybody: Glad to see this post continue as it is a real treat for me to see how you are putting all these details into your model. Well I have been quite busy since, as mentionned in another thread, I have managed to bring my De Caso mikado tank chassis up to a succesful air test, which brought me a good deal of joy, as I have absolutely no model engeneering training. 

I also made a set of omnibus (local) coaches for my pike I have a good photo of the Chapelon in Nord days at Compiègne hauling a rake of those beautiful Prussian non corridor bogie coaches that Märklin so kindly produced for us, and I had already four six wheelers, so I bought some bogie ones at Sinsheim. Then looked at how I could paint them in SNCF green. I figured out a method for this and as I had made up an ex PLM metalised six wheeler (post war SNCF design) it makes up a very nice rake for locals and what we call "semi direct". As the NORD had been litterally destroyed during WWI it was entitled to a great deal of German reparation equipment after. (The morality of the Versailles Treaty, I must confess, is strictly not my cup of tea, may I add) but as a gauge one modeler, I find it very convenient. I then asked Chris Ludlow for some advice to prepare art work for the lettering, did it and got it printed on transfer film by a Parisian firm. here is a posed photo of the result (I didn't have the time to make it in steam but should soon)









Then I built the 12 bogies kits I had for my six NORD coaches, these were designed by two friends, one of which is a guy working for Dassault sytems and he is an ace at computer designing. They feature springing and the very caracteristic Athermos journal boxes -the same as on the tenders. These had fins which sloshed the oil around at the end of the journal box and then small canals brought it to where it was needed.









And here is a photo made just before winter, of the rake or the rake minus one coach the Postal RPO is a scratchbuilt car, the four Rapides are Neil Rose cars and my Express NORD coach is scratch built. The bogies are still unpainted they have been since.









One of the nice things about this ongoing forum is that I scratch built about twelve years ago an OCEM four wheel fourgon which is typically ETAT and EST(its visible right behind my Chapelon in the 1st photo) but was also used on the sud -est region after the war (so I could use it with my 1-4-0 C and my 2-D-2 9100 SNCF) but as I model the NORD and the nord region I could not find a photo of it in service on the Nord region, although that eventuality seemed likely.
The photo of the 2-3-1 G or K (ex PLM) that you showed at Gare du Nord in the last years of steam shows that very baggage car! So you helped me from over the pond Joe! 
By the way Charles called the train on the other track OCEM's actually they are post war all welded design we call Forrestier from the name of the engineer that developped them also known as DEV they started coming out about 1948 and were built right up to the end of the fifties in diferent configuration. The first series even had 3 1/2 first class compartments, the half compartment was for young ladies traveling alone! Other info about that interesting photo, is the container baggage cars: It seems that the convention between the SNCF and the CIWLT after WW2 made the CIWLT container baggages redundant (I don't know why) so they were dropped from the roster however the SNCF used similiar cars (or were they just modernised version of the ex CIWLT cars) that had the center cabin in SNCF green. So theoretically no such baggage behind a 2-3-2 U1 ( I hope this won't break the heart of many fans running gauge one steam) these were used on the Paris Calais runs only were those big hudsons didn't run either because of their 22 tons axle loading (they did a few times but very rarely).


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

Thanks for info on coaches du-bousquetaire, can you tell me more about usage of the Marklin clerestory roofed bogie coaches on local trains, were they used on Est and Nord? Apart from repainting in SNCF green what markings were on these coaches as I would also like to do a local train maybe with a 140C as I like the look of the old coaches. Now back to you Joe and more mods on the Chapelon please when ready.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Welcome back aboard Simon. I am glad to be of service even if by accident!

Beautiful work on those coaches! The bogies look quite nice.

Where did I get a photo that you did not have?

Allow me to mention some things in this post that may help you and others in a search for photos and other information.

One thing you know already Simon is to form the queries _en francais_. I found out by accident that if I translated some of my search queries from English into French, I was taken to many more sites which would not be otherwise found searching in English only.

But here is something that you may not know Simon?

There are back issues of two french modeling magazines on line in PDF format and these magazines have lots of B&W and coloUr photographs in them.

Here I am thinking about:

Ferrovissime
Loco-Revue

The fact that they are available in PDF form means that for a non-french speaker such as I am, though I studied a little French, one can cut and paste sections of text into a translator and then tweak as necessary.

Have a look at these and I'll tell everyone how to get them and more:






































Here are a couple of interesting photos that do not relate to the Nord Pacific:










A Google translation, slightly massaged:

"In a crash of thunder, the 241 P 35 crosses the station d'Orry-la-Ville-Coye track 2, bound for Paris-Nord. Received administratively by the SNCF on June 20, 1952, the "P 35" did not leave the Creusot factory until August 1952, to be entrusted to engineer F. Roy. Immediately after commissioning for commercial use, the locomotive runs 6969 km at the head of regular trains during the first month of its career! (PHOTO: J-H RENAUD / ROGER THEVENE COLLECTION)"

One more of interest . . .










A Google translation, tweaked:

"An extraordinary silhouette: "la Divine" 232 U 1, symbol of the Swan Song of steam traction. Painted in black and green exterior, the locomotive has received red lining while the tender is provided with yellow lining. The locomotive is ready for departure, with, in the background, an economy class passenger coach belonging to the service EX (exploitation), at the time, painted in gray."

How to find these?

Back issues of Ferrovissime and Loco-Revue are available from LR Presse. One can often obtain the actual beautiful color magazine when it is not too far in the past for from 3 to 5 Euros. The same issues plus many more issues going back many years are available to purchase and download in PDF form from fr.1001magazines.com.

It is possible to find the magazines sometimes for free as well in PDF form.

Here is a link to useful elevation drawing of 3.1192 from July-August 1972:

Plan of the Month - Locomotive 3.1192 Nord

Enjoy,

~ Joe

Edit: The Nord looks good at the head of such a fine train, Simon.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

The NORD used yellow lining wereas the PLM used red, as most of the head management of the SNCF came from the PLM (more mileage on the map = more places in the sun...) they imposed their views on many things like colours of the lining, loco number plates and the 2-4-1 P! Which as I had said in an earlier post was issued from a 1933 PLM design, by then completly obsolete, and which Chapelon only had six months to improve before production (bassically he beefed up the flimsy PLM frames and the draughting). As Louis Armand (another PLM veteran) was in charge then, he certainly made sure that none of his 4-8-4 projects ever hit the SNCF rails. They would have made his latest electrics look ridiculous. That is also the reason why none of the greater Chapelon engines (PO 4700, 2-4-0 P, 160 A and the 4-8-4 or 2-4-2 A 1 as well as the frames for the planned three cylinder 2-10-4 which had already been built at General Steel Castings I beleive), were scrapped and none have survived. There seems to have been a general patern world wide to make modern steam disapear fast in the fifties. IE pennsy duplexi and J1as examples in the US. I guess management didn't like to show its misjugement.

I should be able to supply the transfers for the Marklin coaches (both bogie and six wheelers) to those who are interested the cost will be in the £55 range for a set of four bogie and four six wheelers. I did not make transfers for the lettering on the frames as these would be most difficult to install on the models for one; and It is nearly impossible to find the prototype data on these now as these cars were eliminated or rebuilt by the early fifties. It seems that the bogie cars had parts reemployed in the Bruhat serie of bogie local coaches done in the fifties (trucks most likely) Roco did a model of that car.

Also of interest in that article on the Chapelons in Loco Revue when the Roco model came out, is the fact that on the SNCF the chapelons were green with yellow lining at the Calais shed but black with yellow lining at the Paris shed (remember the Rivarossi model?). It is very likely that the chocolat livery could have survived the war some: These engines (not the PO rebuilds but the brand new ones which the Aster model represents) were new then, most were delivered in 1936-38. It is doubtful that they be repainted before 1940 then with war shortages and exactions of all sorts by the occupant, I doubt that they have been repainted until 1944-45, but at that time there was an unbeleivable shortage of just about everything in France which lasted well into 1949. My grandfather a famous author, wrote at the time that he couldn't get his books published in France due to lack of paper, just to give you an idea. So it is likely that some survived in Nord Brown quite late in the game. Of course all the engines that had either been worn out or had received war dammage were rebuilt by private industry as a governement plan to help industry restart up again and provide the war battered SNCF with equipment, these would certainly have been repainted in green or black. Of course this is just supposition, but on the ETAT where engines wore number plates these could still be found right through the fifties, coexisting with SNCF logo, loco number and region number on the buffer beam.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I knew it! You took the bait! 

Simon, I knew that if I put up the photo of U1 accompanied by a tender with yellow lining that you would educate us on the reasons for the condition as seen in the photo.

Thank you once again for your contribution to this thread. I may take you up at some point on the transfers for the rolling stock. We shall see.

There are two issues of Loco-Revue I have which discuss the various subsystems on French locomotives. By subsystems I am referring to pneumatic systems and brakes, water feed, boiler design, firebox charging, generators and electric, etc. In one such article I learned about the two to three air storage reservoir tanks located on the locomotives.

Here are the two issues:

Loco-Revue HSLR 24 11/2011 - La locomotive à vapeur - Comment ça marche ? (1re partie)
Loco-Revue HSLR 25 03/2012 - La locomotive à vapeur - Comment ça marche ? (2e partie)

Steam Locomotives, How They Work, Parts 1 & 2.

I have not done any translations yet, but it is not hard to do cutting and pasting from a PDF file.


Meanwhile, I have not retired yet so it's back to work for me.

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Actually its even unusual that you can see the lining on it. The Nord tradition of ***** and span engines stopped on the fallplate, as tenders were interchangeable and could be changed they left the maintenance for them to the Hoggers and inspectors at the depot, so most had very dirty tenders.
I know this may look tedious to some but I figured that being a NORD fan and having a good deal of info on it, I might as well help out people like Joe who are going out of their way to make a finer model.
By the way those red plugs on the back of the tender, were for train lighting as many of the older cars then still didn't have dynamos and storage batteries. There is even a close up photo made during WW2 of one of the express Nord coaches (of which I made one model) which was to remain coupled to another as there was only one dynamo and battery for both. Heck when I worked in Genoa for a show in 1989 I finnally found out why there were so many agents on the platforms, they were still running coaches with batteries but no generator, so they changed the batteries and put them on the little carts to bring them to a place where they were recharged. Imagine the work, batteries are heavy! And yes Hans Peters little plugs are much finer for sure!


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I have five of those smaller electrical receptacles, whereas there were actually 7 in use. There are three on the front of the engine as the cinema also plugged into such a receptacle, but H-P and I didn't discuss this at the time we were communicating about these items. Three on the front of the loco and three on the rear of the tender, so where is the 7th connector box.

Can you see it?










I was lucky to find this photo as it is the only one I could find that showed so much detail of the interior of the cab, as well as the piping, reverser and door details with mounting plates.

Most French locomotives have a four-spoke reverser wheel with an open look. Here we see a solid wheel with a locking mechanism. I do have one or two other photos that demonstrate that the 4-spoked wheel is solid (one cannot look through the spokes.)

It seems that the Nord occasionally moved the loco at night sans tender. 

I am nowhere near ready to go back to the tender, but at some point not that far off, I will rework the front buffer beam. I have a question for you Simon.


Here we see a sad sight:










Notice that one can see the original electrical connector boxes as well as what appear to be conventional lamp irons.

3.1192 does not use lamp irons as we see above. Instead, there are loops mounted on the buffer beam on the locomotive and on the rear body of the tender . . . and the lamps themselves have spikes which slide into the loops:










H-P used the spike and loop method and this is what I have modeled, though I haven't finished my work yet.

This is rather trivial, but is what we see at Mulhouse likely to be what the Nord used when they used lamps that were converted from oil to electric?

I assume it was the SNCF that installed conventional lamp irons?

~ Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

All French steam locos kept their lamp irons and one often finds photos of engines in the late sixties with electric lamps (we call them "phares marshall" as that was the name of the firm that made them) with an old oil lantern on one of those lamp irons (IE 3 headlights). This was a safety measure in case of some failure in the generator on line. Now to determine if these irons were in the same position as in their original NORD condition, I wouldn't know really, but very likely so. 

And the receptacle is under the drag beam, very good photo! 

Yes those Prussian Armistice cars were very common in France, on the EST on the PLM (with PLM colours! on the AL and on the P.O as well as the NORD. probably the Midi got some also. If folks are interested in these transfers let me know as I have to have some printed for a friend soon. 
Best to all


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thanks again, Simon,

So it seems that it is your belief that the black metal u-channel loops for mounting the lamps (as you see in the photo of the tender) that we see today on 3.1192 in Mulhouse were not used in service?

It's hard to know from photographs we have available what is behind the lamps when we see them mounted.

I do have side-view photos from SNCF times where these is no doubt that conventional lamp-irons were in use as we see in the sad photo of 231E41 above.

To be continued . . .

~ Joe


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

Simon,
I have sent a PM to you re transfers for Prussian coaches. Joe amazing research between everyone and the images are great you make my Chapelon start to appear 'bare' by comparison, I must get on with tender mods keep up the posts on progress.
Russell


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi fellows I thought that an SNCF film made right after the war in 1946 will give you a pretty good views of the Chapelon in the early SNCF days, they are seen with SNCF markings on the pilot beam yet still with their NORD macarons on the center of the smokebox door. The pre war documentary is very interesting and shows how well it had rebuilt since the first WW.
Aside from that this is a fascinating documentary on how the war literally destroyed the NORD for a second time, notably because of its strategic importance in preventing German reinforcements to reach Normandy and push D Day allied troops back in the channel. Allied bombings ands air attacks did most but also the French résistance of the railway men, many risked their lives.
So for those interested here is the link:


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I enjoyed the video Simon and thank you.

A couple of little details pertaining to the model I picked up . . .










Note that the mount in use for the lamp is similar to the photo of the tender rear from the contemporary museum at Mulhouse. This is the type of mount I am fabricating instead of the conventional lamp-iron type. The receptacle is on the locomotive. The "spike" is on the lamp. Also note the electrical fitting/socket on the right as we look at the photo.










Here we can just make out the brackets for the cinema and it looks as though the same bracket is in use on both sides though we always see the cinema on the right side of the loco, left as we see it from the front.










Another screen grab.

Last shot for now from the film . . .

Inside the cab, we see that the reverser wheel appears to be solid in construction? . . . and there is a locking mechanism in use where a rod with a rectangular end slides into a square-cut gear.










Time to get back into the model . . . 

~ Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi there I hope people enjoyed this fascinating documentary and indeed there is a lot to see in them including the fact that the many BR44 being built by French firms requisitioned by the occupant, were never completed during the occupation, there seems that they always were missing such and such a supply or piece of hardware to finnish them... Well as soon as these firms were liberated, the parts reappeared and the engines were finnished off very quickly to haul coal as 1-5-0 X, before the liberation mikados arrived! 

Yes the reverser wheel was solid (and slightly spoked still) and there was a locking mechanism or two one to prevent creeping, the other to link up the HP and the LP together if needed, but it could be unlocked. these reversers were like clockwork.
Of course this is a propaganda film with the narator sometimes over emotional, but nevertheless the efforts of the crews in a situation much like Syria today, but with snow, was heroic indeed. Something like what Moffat road crews did going over the hill before the tunnel was done.


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## Accucraft UK (Sep 16, 2013)

...now if someone would only produce a Du Bousquet/De Glehn compound I could die happy......

Graham.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thanks again, Simon. I don't know enough French to be able to understand what the narrator is saying - I can read a bit better - but certainly the tone is evident in the film and quite dramatic as the film comes to a close. I also saw a shot of those Prussian coaches in there somewhere.

Well . . .

Before I move on to some photos of the work I am doing on the locomotive, I think it's time I "come clean" about a disaster I experienced. It is a story of failure and redemption. 

I am going to digress quite a lot in this one post, so if the reader doesn't like digression, you may skip to the next post.

I am relating the story not because I like to humiliate myself in public, but rather, because there is a lesson or two for others and perhaps someone will be able to avoid going down the dark path I took.

There are a couple of reasons why I hadn't made much progress on this project for over a year: 



 one part disaster
 one part a delay in getting the right Nord brown paint.
one part interesting distraction
 
I've already spoken about the trial and error process of getting the right paint. I am sure I can get as much of it as anyone would need in future.

*The disaster . . .
*
A year and a half ago, I thought I was nearly finished detailing the tender as I have already explained. I eventually was persuaded that I'd have to repaint and reline, but before I even got that far, I decided to make a jig to hold the tender body on my mini-mill table so as to mill down the cut-away on the left side as you have seen completed in earlier posts - but with a replacement body! More about that in a bit.

I was about 95% finished with the milling operation when before my eyes, the end-mill cutter hogged and ripped through the side of the tender.

For a moment or two I was in a state of shock as one would expect if one cut off the tip of one's finger. I immediately realized I had exercised poor judgment and that I could have easily used Swiss files to accomplish the task safely on a painted model that I did not have to repaint (at that point.) It would have taken more time, but the result would have been assured.

I have no photos of the damage, but I do have photos of the repair.

You may recall that I purchased the Nord from Aster UK and naturally I turned to Andrew in my time of need. Was it possible that somewhere in the storeroom there would be found a new old stock Nord tender body?

While Andrew checked with Aster for me, I busied myself with a laborious repair.

As I was still trying to avoid a compete stripping of the tender body, I used a combination of brass plate and JB Weld.

JB Weld works like magic. It takes finishing almost as well as metal.

Here are a few shots of the work in progress:










Above it is clear that the brass and epoxy were "doing the job." What about the outside?










and . . .










It was coming along reasonably well, I thought . . .

Meanwhile, Andrew had gotten back to me that Aster did not have a Nord tender shell left in inventory.

*But now for another painful lesson . . .
*
I had not worked out how to use an airbrush like a professional and I ought to have practiced more before attempting the paintwork.

Since my first attempt at a complete painting of the one side, I have practiced more and I have acquired a small paint booth. My first attempt was done outside on a warm day, but with a bit too much breeze:










The above is the last photo I will show on the subject of the tender body shell repair. I don't know about you, but I have had enough! 

Does anyone have any idea how Aster made these lovely rivets so many years ago?

_I_ can tell you how. 

Looking at the underside, one can see that the rivets were not embossed from underneath. As it turns out, they are stamped from the front and raised in relief. Seemed workable. I'd already acquired a stock of replacement brass rivets of the right size to insert where needed.

I thought it would be safe to take a solvent to the side of the tender, bring it back to bare metal and then I could "paint it like a professional!"

So I used acetone and I began to dissolve the paint nicely and I was at first quite pleased with the result. But then . . .

*What went wrong this time? 
*
As it turns out, the rivets were a composite of stamping plus epoxy coating to increase the size. 

By the time that I realized that I was not only wiping off the paint, but also wiping off 2/3 the original rivets, it was too late.

I was sinking into quicksand without a rope in sight.

I ended up drilling nearly the entire side of the tender and inserting new rivets. It was coming along, but it would never be a perfect solution.

Months had gone by and as it turns out, during the Aster move, Fujii-san found a remaining Nord tender body shell and made it available to me through Andrew. 

What a great sense of relief that was! 

So the earlier photos you've seen are of the reassembled tender with the replacement body. I now have a "practice body," which will come in handy.

*As far as the interesting distraction goes, I'll add a short tale . . .*

As has been the case with the "Nord Project," I had succumbed to what I refer to as "May As Well Syndrome."

May as well syndrome is something we all suffer from, from time to time, or so I imagine.

Spring had sprung and I noticed that my Austin-Healey 3000 BJ8 had a flat tire. In examining the tire (or tyre, if you prefer,) I realized that all my tires were about 20 years old? It's dangerous to be riding around on such old rubber so I ordered new from Longstone Classic Tyres in the UK. I had already learned with wire wheels, I may as well get my old wheels and new tires to an expert for mounting and truing up. Off to Alan Hendrix they went and shortly thereafter he gave me the news that the splines were worn on 3 of 4 wheels. May as well replace the wire wheels. I knew then that I had to replace the splined hubs as well. Can't do one without the other.

While I was waiting for the return, I may as well redo the brake disks and calipers up front and the drums and shoes in the rear. Why not change out the steel brake lines and hoses as well? Alan asked me to send him the drums as we may as well balance the drums. While the car was up on jack stands, may as well replace the rear axle bearings and seals. May as well check the universal joints only to discover some play in the rear joint. May as well replace both u-joints then.

I guess the picture is coming clear. 

The weather was beautiful and the car was up on jacks. 

Time to bead-blast some of the old steel underneath, prime and paint. And it was then that I decided to reupholster the entire car, front, rear, side panels, etc. None of us is getting any younger. That was months worth of fair-weather and garage work right there. 

One photo only and its back to work on the locomotive:










OK,, time to get back to the subject at hand . . .


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Accucraft UK said:


> ...now if someone would only produce a Du Bousquet/De Glehn compound I could die happy......
> 
> Graham.


Is that a hint of something to come, Graham?

One may hope. 

~ Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I just can't leave things the way they were left above, so let's get started on the loco.

I mentioned that I originally thought that I wasn't going to do a "frame off" rebuild of the locomotive, but by now one realizes that such a thought on my part is self-delusion or merely a feint. 

In fact, the locomotive has been stripped to a "parts only" state, all o-rings have been replaced, new Rulon piston rings have been installed and a general rebuild is in the works.

I did not take many "before" photos so I will use photos either furnished by others or else I will be grabbing some selected shots that exist on the Net for the _before_ photos.

Generally, I have been working from the rear of the loco toward the front but I will be leaving the cab detailing until last.

What should the locomotive look like under the cab on the left side and on the right side?

Here is a shot taken at Mulhouse of the right side of 3.1192:










The details lacking on the Aster Nord model include the entire injector assembly as well as some detailing around the wheels and the ash pan release.

For reasons that I do not quite understand, there are no good photos on the Net of the opposite side of 3.1192 at Mulhouse and the few that exist are not very helpful.

This is the best that I can find and it _is_ good enough.










and . . .












We can see a couple of items not found on the Aster Nord. There is the ash pan release again and there are two other notable details. There is a check valve (clack valve) assembly in the water feed from the tender and there is an expansion tank just ahead of the check valve. Aster did model the speedometer pick-up assembly.

The next two photos lay out the challenge. 

There is no room under the Aster cab which will allow for such detail as is required. 

One of my early realizations is that the piping from the tender to the locomotive would have to be completely redone.

These two photos are of the side of a loco owned by another enthusiast:












and












As you can see, the side water supply and return connections used by Aster at the time of manufacture preclude the installation of detail work.

To be continued . . .


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

This will be "it" for now.

Lets look at the overall change in fittings . . .










On the left you see the original Aster fittings which clearly protrude and interfere with any possible details that could otherwise be added.

On the right, you see the replacement fitting which I made. I was able to buy the proper sized un-threaded brass pipe and the hex stock from Online metals.

This project has caused me to learn to really enjoy resistance soldering while using Stay Brite® _8_ silver bearing soft solder.

Some additional photos:










Looks ever bit as good as the original.

Plenty of room for details now:










and . . .










Looking good.

On the opposite side, the new valve will be operated by a lever similar to later Aster designs . . .

I did not make the valve body. I used a Regner valve purchased from Jason at The Train Department. I shortened the threaded connections and I remade the stem. The Regner valve had a brass stem and I decided to remake the stem is stainless steel.

I have not yet mastered the art of make good valve seats. To date, I have not worked with D-bits.










After blackening, here is what we now have:










Lots of room for details.

Time to take a break. 

~ Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

One has to make choices: Do you like to run trains in which case, the by pass valve is one of the most useful control items on a loco and if it is handy, then it is even more usefull. 
Or

Do you want to make a shelve queen? For me there is no questionover the fact that to run our locos need to make certain compromises. And I can assure you that it was JVR philosophy also. What I would do is to paint it black and keep it. On the injector side what John Butler did was to replace the oversize handle with a screw head by sawing of the large handles cylinder 3mmm proud of the seat and sloting it to screw it in with a screwdriver and make the injector assembly removable, it sits in front so you cant see the screw head, you place it on after having made the connection: highly recomendeed.

Funny we posted this at the same time! 
What you did looks good.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

du-bousquetaire said:


> One has to make choices: Do you like to run trains in which case, the by pass valve is one of the most useful control items on a loco and if it is handy, then it is even more usefull.
> Or
> 
> Do you want to make a shelve queen? For me there is no questionover the fact that to run our locos need to make certain compromises. And I can assure you that it was JVR philosophy also. What I would do is to paint it black and keep it. On the injector side what John Butler did was to replace the oversize handle with a screw head by sawing of the large handles cylinder 3mmm proud of the seat and sloting it to screw it in with a screwdriver and make the injector assembly removable, it sits in front so you cant see the screw head, you place it on after having made the connection: highly recomendeed.
> ...


Why not have both the attribute of a fine runner and the beaty of a shelf queen?

I think I came up with a pretty elegant solution if I do say so myself. 

~ Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

True Joe, it was written just before you posted your last photos and as I posted it your post came on instead. You did a great job. I was just wondering just how far we can go, because live steam locos like their prototypes need constant attention, and if there is too much detail it could break off a lot of it.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

du-bousquetaire said:


> True Joe, it was written just before you posted your last photos and as I posted it your post came on instead. You did a great job. I was just wondering just how far we can go, because live steam locos like their prototypes need constant attention, and if there is too much detail it could break off a lot of it.


I realized just afterward that we were posting at the same time earlier on, hence the 

There are some details that probably _should_ be left out. Here I have in mind the fine conduits and tubing runs across the top of the locomotive that will make cleaning up after use a bit more complicated and may trap water - not a good thing.

So far, the things I am contemplating doing are going to be OK. In all but one case I will mention later, the details are held on by screws as Aster would do and are therefore removable and replaceable.

The approach I am taking is to look at each opportunity to detail as a small project in itself. I make a part and set it aside and move on. In such a way, I will eventually assemble everything as if from a kit. I have no deadline, just that I'd like to still be alive when I'm done.

Most of the photographs one encounters are unfortunately front quarter views. It's understandable as these photos were taken by either tourists or admirers of the locomotive in its entirety and not modelers. 

Here is another teaser . . .










The above photo was one of several pretty good shots taken by a guy named Martin Bane back in the early 2000s










Below is a composite showing how I started with the Aster casting in the foreground and then added the solder-on details using my American Beauty 250 watt resistance soldering setup on a very low setting. One can see that the silver-bearing soft solder flows pretty nice with pinpoint heat having been applied. There is very little discoloration and other cleanup necessary apart from a bit of polishing with a wire brush.

For reference, the drain cocks on either side dimensionally are as follows:

Diameter from small to large: .050, .072. .095
Lengths from the small side up: .060, .070. 070

What is not shown is a 2 mm long section under 1 mm in diameter used to insert the drains into the pre-drilled (by me) castings

Those little nuts on the tubing were size M0.8

Of course I'll have to dull the black paint. 










TBC . . .


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Two posts for today . . .

While searching for some information using French phrases, I came across this interesting hobby machinist site:

Passion-Usinages - Les locomotives a vapeur echelle 1

A Passion for Machining - Machine Tool, Machining and Documentation - Steam Locomotives - Gauge 1

There are some very fine photographs in the thread as well as some links to videos. This one is an interesting train trip pulled by an SNCF 141 TD






The video is not meant for Green Peace members or other environmentalists!

Starting at around the 3-minute mark it shows oiling all around and included in the video . . . cleaning out the firebox and the smoke box.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

There are some interesting gear motions on the Chapelon Nord . . .

Aster modeled the faux poppet valve motion and this adds to the interest generated by the normal Walschaerts motion elements.

The oiler lever on the right side of the locomotive moves opposite to the oscillating Dabeg poppet valve actuator.

There is a motion element on the left side of the loco which I have not been able to identify. perhaps Simon may help?

It looks a lot like a speedometer pick-up, but the speedometer pickup is actually on the opposite side. This is something else.

There is a pickup from the crank which drives an eccentric through a bearing assembly. Feedback is sent into the cab, but for what purpose?

Here are two photos . . .










and . . .












Here is how Fulgurex modeled this sub-system:










and










Cheers,

Joe


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Looks like a 'Flaman" speed recorder drive to me, the last ones in daily use are fitted to Na Class 2-6-2s on Puffing billy railway [australia] ..the result of an excessive speed accident in the early 1900s when it was govt railway..and france had speed limits which seemed to have been policed carefully.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did some research, and apparently it was not unusual to have a Flaman on one side and a "regular" speed "takeoff" on the other.

Greg


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thank you, Gentlemen. You seem to have nailed it.










I'll now look for some better detail on the pick-up unit. 

The four bits of info (photos) I have turned up will do if I can't locate better.

Cheers,

~ Joe

Edit: Some good info here:

Recherche d'infos sur le numéro d'un flaman SNCF - Locating Data on the number of Flaman Units at SNCF


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Joe about the speed recorder movement on the right side of the loco, I am at loss to explain just what it is. One idea is that the Paris Orléans Chapelons (the original ones, which by the way were the only ones painted grey, they did not haul the Orient Express but did haul the Sud Express) had Hausalter speed recorders because that was standard P.O. practice. It therefore might be, that some were delivered to the Nord this way and as war interveened, they could have kept them for quite some time. I also notioced that some engines had this feature and some did not which might explain things.
Beware the cab photo you show is of an ETAT pacific (Which I rode on 150km.) These ETAT pacifics were actually a variation on the PO pacific, the ETAT railway was used to asking the PO its drawings and using them for new motive power (They probably were too poor to have their design department before 2008) So for the pacifics after two original designs they copied the P.O. Ones. But they used their own design pony trucks and bissel trucks, and made their own cab, tender, sand domes etc. As the old Ouest mainline to Le Havre (and New York) had been built by Locke the famous British (GNR) engeneer and with British capital it had some tunnels that had British loading gauge, so The ETAT which had just bought up the old Ouest, decided against its own standard practice to adopt a crampton firebox with radial stays, to get some better clearance up front for the crews. otherwidse they are identical to the PO ones. That is how you can tell that its an ETAT one as the front spectacle has a very angled form diferent from the PO eliptical one. The cab roof and sides angled in more also. While we are talking about this loco it will be of interest to know that these ETAT pacifics were "Chapelonised" in the thirties anbd forties, with Kilchap exhaust and Dabeg valves to the LP 2-3-1 D, and to both groups on the 2-3-1 DD (for double dabeg) which on the SNCF became 2-3-1 G of which this one is preserved, it has a double kilchap and Houlet superheaters, ACFI etc, so in fact is equivalenbt to a Chapelon. The ETAT engeneers were probably Chapelons best disciples in France. 

Now the nice video is of an EST mikado tank which like many EST engines was three cylinder simple. With a very unusual valve gear with a return crank. The high bridge that the train climbs to is the viaduc de Cubzac on the old ETAT Paris Bordeau main line abandoned after 1938 when the rival P.O. had electrified its own main line. It is one of the only bridges in France designed to go over sea going vessels and is situated near where the Dordogne river meets the Garonne river. Thus the very long steep aproach, sort of a French **** gate bridge.
To get back to the cab photo a new book has come out written by my friend Fillette who is an engine driver at Calais shed, let me look in it I may find you some good cab views. It is on the Chapelons at Calais shed.
Watch this space!
Best,


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Ok Joe, I checked in this book and another on la Chapelle shed. But no good photos of the backhead. I was about to post the photo that you had in page 10 of this thread and it seems to be the only photo made of the engine before its installation in Mulhouse with tender uncoupled which shows the "devanture" as french railwaymen called it..


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