# Some ?'s on ladder method



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I've got a section that I have decided not to use the 90 crossing I had, but instead create an over/under for the crossing to add some layout interest having levels and to avoid 2 trains running at the same time unattended ending up in a collision. I found some very interesting pieces of plasticized screen door molding that I'm gonna experiment with. The nice thing is that this stuff is only $2.50ish for an 8 foot section. For those that have done ladder types, typically what distance do you do for the vertical supports? Since this stuff is only 3/4' by under 1/4', I'm probably gonna need the supports closer for strength.


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## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

I used 24" vertical Post spacing...... I wish I went 26" so the Lawn Mower would fit underneath..... between posts...

Vertical post spacing serve 2 purposes....... Support rail & subsystem to prevent rail sag...... 
They also define track curvature & it's smoothness...... I tried for a minimum track Diameter of 12t...... 11 ft Dia. min. mite be what I got.... 

Den Mayer from GBay, WI


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

So the profile of your material is 3/4" x 1/4" ? In that case probably want to be every 12". It has a pretty thin profile so your will have to have closer supports.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I've done an 8' mockup with 16" OC supports. Tomorrow should be ready to test with actual weight of moving engine. So I'll report back. However, when drilling pilot holes, it turns out this is some sort of foam core wrapped with the final or whatever. I'm thinking this stuff may not be a good choice long term.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Well, finally got it in and tested. Results are that with 1" PVC posts at 16" centers, it really is pretty strong. Not strong enough to stand on or put lots of body weight, but way more than enough for trains and won't flex under their weight. But, the stuff is very easy to split when driving the screws even with per-drilled holes. So I used a recess bit then and you have to be real careful. There is a very fine line between enought and too much. But it is very affordable with both sides only at about $5 for 8 foot that works out to only .63 a foot. I'm not sure just how durable it would be over time with dogs, critters, etc. So I went back to second option and found some 5/8" by 1.5" PVC stuff and will experiment with it. But it's $11 for a 12 footer stick times 2 sides works out to $1.83 a foot. Big difference but could probably go 32" on centers for poles. Will update as I go.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

When I made a ladder with Trex and drywall screws I also had to pre drill, but I also had to use Finish Washers to prevent splits with a tight bond. The washers are stamped sheet metal with a raised profile that stops the screw from pulling itself through. Takes the guess work out and speeds completion. 

John


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Michey, looks like option one is not a good one. If it splits real easy, what about when it gets real cold outside (of course I dont know where you live, but in my neck of the woods it would be a problem.)? I think going 32" between centers for your supports could be too far. I used the same stuff your using in your second option and I put my supports every 24". That seemed to work pretty good.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

John, after the first spit I considered the washer route too, but I want them counter sunk so when I spray it all brown, it disappears more. I'm not wanting the eye to be taken to mechanical fasteners which are not scaled right to begin with.


Jake, did you use the 1" PVC posts or bigger different material? The nice thing about the 1" is once I get my marks for grade, I can use the hand cutter to cut the tops, as apposed to using a saw or something else which can change the pole plumb, etc. with all the movement. Once everything is all attached, it becomes surprisingly strong and rigid. Plus I have plenty of 1" scraps already here from other things. I have not played with the 32 spacing, but that is my next mockup.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Scaled right? 

I'm confused again, nothing new there... My ladder wasn't to be seen, everything under the track was to be hidden on my pike with scenery shelves. 

Good luck 

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Thinking out loud here guys! 

Mickey, I use a ''hybrid ladder system'' here, using all PVC round pipe. Using both 1'' or 1 1/4'' pipe for runners, I can stand on it. I use 24'' center line spacing for risers..I run 150-160 pds. which is plenty of assurance that trains in the 15-20# range ( locos ) will be ok on the system ... 

My concern based on your description is that you may not be setting the risers deep enough in the ground ?? Most ladder builders set risers, add the flat runners on grade and trim off the excess riser afterwards - not before. By doing so the unit is plenty strong for cross cuts with out jiggling the whole affair... 

You will have long term expansion to consider also, even for the ladder itself, using a 32'' space is rather long and can contribute to problems later I feel... 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Mickey, 

From my experience 1" risers (unless they are right at ground level) will be insufficient in the long run. My club layout built our layout using the ladder method using 2" risers with 1/2 x 1 1/2 PVC runners on both sides of the pipe. Risers are about 24" on center (plus or minus who was doing the digging). Risers are set in 6-8 inch diameter post holes with concrete, about 12-18" deep. We are located in the panhandle of Florida and see temps from the occasional 20's to right at the century mark. Our runners are blocked between the posts in two or three places (depending on the location of the tie strip screw holes). Before we did all the back fill, there was considerable (obviously visible) sagging in the heat of the summer. Even after back filling we still experience changes in the ladders that require maintenance. If you are going much over 12" vertical above grade, I would recommend larger pipe risers. 

You can look at our layout here to get some idea of what we have done. www.ecgrc.com 

Good luck. 

Bob c.


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Need to see if I can move my "modified" ladder ideas to this post. Haven't been that good with adding pictures since you need to write something, post it and then edit it...interesting.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I used 3/4" thickwalled PVC pipe. Of course I buried my ladder so the 3/4 " is really to stabilize the track and keep it plumb. I think if I made a ladder which would not be buried I would not go less then 1 1/2". However, try a small portion of the 1" stuff and see how stable it is from right to left. It is suits you, then use it since you got a lot of it.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By mickey on 08 Mar 2013 10:29 AM 
I've got a section that I have decided not to use the 90 crossing I had, but instead create an over/under for the crossing to add some layout interest having levels and to avoid 2 trains running at the same time unattended ending up in a collision. I found some very interesting pieces of plasticized screen door molding that I'm gonna experiment with. The nice thing is that this stuff is only $2.50ish for an 8 foot section. For those that have done ladder types, typically what distance do you do for the vertical supports? Since this stuff is only 3/4' by under 1/4', I'm probably gonna need the supports closer for strength. 

You might find that it will not be strong enough. The first ladder I built was 1x2 with 2x2 blocks as spacers. The support posts are 24" on that and they so not offer enough support to keep it from sagging from the weight of a heavy engine. Most of this got buried and once buried is fine but if you plan to not bury the support needs to be stronger.

My recent personal track is using the same material but in a different fashion. I built a T girder and added a strip of aluminum flat bar on the edge to create a ballast deck. This method I am spanning 6' on curves with no problems. I can support 100lbs with minimal movement.


You can see some photos of my new track here https://picasaweb.google.com/kovacj...directlink

I will add some of the old ladder style also.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

First, thanks for all the input and ideas. Tomorrow I'll take a pic and post just to clarify. First the riser posts are being driven down thru the 1.5" septic gravel. Due to the hard pack beneath it, all risers are down in the gravel 12" to 18" (and they ain't going any further) and rise from basically 0 to 12 inches above gravel for an over/under. From the pic tomorrow you will be able to see that this is a traffic free setup so I won't really have to worry about that aspect. In the first mockup, I was really surprised just how stable it gets as you tie it all together. Just don't like the splitting issue. 

John, the way I'm doing it is driving the riser poles down through the gravel leaving 12 inches above ground. After all in, then adding the pre-built ladders across all the risers at once. Friction holds them to the risers. I set my grade level to approx. 2.5% grade the entire run by sliding ladder up the riser as I need. I ran one screw in the first riser but only on one side, then work down that side, riser at a time checking grade. With one side all attached, I double check things then pencil mark the risers at top of ladder. Take out screws, push ladder down out of way, use PVC cutter to trim risers at pencil mark, lift ladder back up and reset screw in prior hole so goes right back to my 2.5 grade. Then I go back riser at a time and check side to side level and screw in that side, move to next riser. This way I get my grade I need and makes sure side to side is good. No need to use temporary clamps, etc. Again, so far I have just been mocking it up to decide final materials. Once that is decided, I'll just scale it up to do the whole run at once. As for my mention about scale, meaning the screws I'm using are human size drywall ones, not 1:20 scale. Yes they are under the track, but when viewing from just a few feet and further back, the sides are visible under the track. The finished product being sprayed brown will help but not eliminate. Eventually I will probably do a hand built trestle to help hind the risers and disappear to the casual eye. 

Jason, what did you use for the spacing blocks between the ladder rails?


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

track ladder?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By mickey on 11 Mar 2013 10:48 PM 


Jason, what did you use for the spacing blocks between the ladder rails? 

Mickey 
Home depot/Lowes sells a 2x2 pvc trim. We used that cut into blocks. Drove coated 1 5/8" screws from the ladder into that. Same for the posts to the ladder.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

So here are some pics of the mockup I was doing to test the thinner material. In the final, I plan to take more time trying to get all the risers, perfectly plum and in line. However, going thru existing gravel may not make it so easy. I plan to try first driving a re-bar piece down as a guide, then slip the PVC over it and drive it down. At least that is the plan. We will see.


For some reason I cannot seem to paste pics in like I used to be able. So here are links to them, but at full size.

One, Two and Three 




























The rise runs from the beginning of the curve 30 feet in the background of the last pic. It goes from 0 to the end in the foreground which is 12". Once I go with the different PVC material and spray it brown, the screws should mostly become unnoticeable.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Mickey

To include pictures in your posted replies you might want to review the FAQ's (follow the path or just click the below link).









MLS menu bar >> Resources menu >> FAQ >> As a Standard Member how do I use the Rich-text/HTML Editor? - Including Pictures in Your Replies:[/b]


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

So can you not add pics at all unless you are a 1st class person? I used to be able to just copy/paste them in. Did that change?


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

No sir, you are free to include pictures in your posted replies as a MLS Standard Member.

The image files have to be available for access over the internet (i.e one of the free image hosting sites Flickr, Photobucket, Picasa, etc.). Which I see that yours are hosted on your very own commercial website.

In the original posting of your reply posted at 12 Mar 2013 10:09 AM, there was two MS/Office-Word, Outlook(?) Microsoft HTML tags for conditional comments i.e. {if gte mso 9} (yes I intensionally used curly braces so it would show as just text







) like you were copying the images and maybe the text from an Microsoft document, that may have caused things to fail.

If your going to use the copy/paste method to place the pictures in the reply, then I would suggest that using a blank browser window to point to and display the picture and then copy/paste from the browser window.

The other thing is the images your links point to far exceed the MLS maximum width of 800 pixels (e.g. 2592 x 1936) and each has a file size very close to 1.5MB which can cause MLS members with slow connection speeds a problem.

The other problem you can encounter by simply using the copy/paste method to include pictures in your replies, is if you go back to edit your reply the HTML gets broken.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Another issue you want to keep in mind is the expansion and contraction rate of this PVC roadbed when fully exposed if huge. We note on the exposed curve of 8' radius the inner rail is beyond the inner ladder leg as the bed expanded to much vs the brass rail. On the buried sections it is fine. 

That is the major reason I went with my modified design plus it is much stronger.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Steve, in my early experience here I once posted a picture and sure enough it was hugh and slow. So I put the pic in something and then resized it there, then copied and pasted. I could have sworn it was Word I used as the in between step as I do this for other things too. But obviously not. I'll have to experiment again and try to remember how I sized it down without a photo shop. Thanks for making that one visible.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Mickey

I went back and edited your reply of 12 Mar 2013 10:09 AM and added your pictures in.

I'm pretty sure if you use the second browser window and copy/paste from that into the MLS Rich-text HTML editor. Then once you get the picture displayed in the editor's *Message:* content area, if you double left-click the image I'm pretty sure a *Image* dialog will be displayed, and in that dialog there is a *Width:* field, just select the value displayed and type in 800 this will change the displayed size of the image, all that remains is clicking the *OK* button. This won't do anything about the file size, but it will get the image dimensions in-line.


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Just interested, I have seen several mentions of obtaining a 1x2 (3/4" x 1-1/2") white PVC material from Home Depot...however, I have checked with both our Home Depots and Lowes and can't seem to find it at all. I am wondering whether it is something that is sold regionally and not at all stores. Does anyone have a SKU number for the product? Thanks, Ed


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Ed, 

I'm using that stuff AND STILL need more! I was concerned when you posted this. So I looked it up and my store here in Burbank, CA. has it. Here is the SKU for it. 

EverTrue 1/4-in x 1-9/16-in x 8-ft Paint Grade Vinyl Lattice (Pattern 2018)Item #: 209626 | Model #: 02018. 

Hope this helps. 

EDIT: I now see you were loking for 3/4. I had trouble finding that size a long time ago. Read about BodsRailroad (Ron) back in May 2012. This is what he was using. It works great!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Gary, 
Which department do they hide it in? Common Sense is not a big box trait.... 

John


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

They hide it in the Special Order Office John. Believe me, that's the truth! It's not out. I looked all over my local Lowes and asked all kinds of questions, like "Where the **** is this crap anyway?". Showed the guy in the office on the internet site and he ordered it for me.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Good thing I asked, I'm the kind determined to find it on my own..... 

Sometimes it get's so bad I pity the innocent that crosses my path... eyes glazed, specks and flecks of 'rabid' foam at the corners of my mouth.... 
common sense disabled Arrrrrgggghhhh Curses! I'll find it next time.... 

What???? You asked for it???? What a concept! 

John


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Just got 2 more sticks today. The stuff I'm using is in the trim area where they have all the special wood pressed trim, preprimed, etc. Here is the upc 07067383683. So far I've used PVC glue for the 1.5" spacers which is just 2 pieces glued together and it glues up real good. For splice joints, I'm gonna use the same spacers just 3 inches long to equally span the joint then glued. I may later add some screws at these splices just for good measure but not til I see if really necessary. Becomes very sturdy.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Update on today progress.  Here I am pounding them into the gravel.  Then I will level for my grade and plumb them.
 







 
 
And here I finally got to the end.  Got them all set for height and put a mockup for clearance check.  After the picture, I did re-do that 3rd one that was leaning due to the bottom being off a little.  The rest look pretty good.  Here is the Shay, my tallest, and it has 1 3/4 inches clearance.  Thinking about lowering it down to just 1/2 or 3/4 clearance to help with a little on the grade which is currently about 2.8%. The 1 1/4 over the 25 feet should take it down to just under 2.5% .  Input?


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

mmmmm now, ... 1/2'' - 3/4'' clearances eh!?? Will that be enough room for the 'smoke'...!? 

If your running a Shay - it should not mind the grade you have,...and look great on it in fact!!! 

If your thinking about modern diesels maybe short trains will work for you... 

In the past tho I have run 50-70 car trains on the grade your working with, only one loco, 2 should be easy!! 

I'd want a bit more head room is all... 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

3/10 of 1% .... not enough gained to cut the clearance. 
3% was my working indoor small scale model mainline grade, our models are capable of this modeler's license. Your run is straight which is best, besides the giraffe can't always duck in time or the brakemen on top to set the retainers. 

Looks good. 

John


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm not into the modern deisel stuff. I've got the Shay, Climax, Connie, 4-4-0 and my sons original big hauler. I'll be mixing it up and not any real long ones. Some day I would like to get a set of the heavyweights and a pacific, but that's in the future. See how this goes first. But ALL will have to climb this grade at some point. I have a switch to avoid it, but plan to not have limited routes. Not doing a theme or specific era either. Just some nice sceanery and water. Since the Shay is my tallest by what, an inch easily, cutting the grade cuts the future potential. Can a pacific pulling heavyweights make this grade?


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Got the first ladder curve done with my jig and some of my migrant workers. This stuff glues up nice and tight with the PVC glue but since it's on a curve, I decided to add some sheet rock screws to each side as a mechanical just in case. When I do the straights, I may not unless I have problems. It does have a little memory once I let it out of the jig, but I think once in the PVC post it will stay put. I guess we shall see. Next step is the spray it brown to help make it disappear. Using the pre-made curves does create some issues with getting it just right.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By FlagstaffLGB on 29 Mar 2013 04:37 PM 
Just interested, I have seen several mentions of obtaining a 1x2 (3/4" x 1-1/2") white PVC material from Home Depot...however, I have checked with both our Home Depots and Lowes and can't seem to find it at all. I am wondering whether it is something that is sold regionally and not at all stores. Does anyone have a SKU number for the product? Thanks, Ed 
Flagstaff...don't be too specific when you're looking for the ladder material at your Home Depot or Lowes. You're right...what they sell is often regional. My ladder was made from 1x4ish vinyl benderboard that my HD sold. I ripped it into 1x2's. BUT...the ladder material can really be anything that looks like a bender board or edge trim. So...look in the garden department (where the plants are) for the various bender board options. Look in the trim "wood" department down by lumber to see what they offer. 

If you're plan is to leave the ladder exposed and not buried...some do that...then I'd recommend you stay with wood (lawn edging...1/4" thick...use two layers on each side). It doesn't expand from heat as much. If you're gonna bury all your ladder, the vinyl stuff works great...as the ground never gets that hot. I installed the ripped vinyl benderboard...and left it up, not in dirt, for a year...and let me tell you, it's kinks. But...when it's buried someday, it'll be fine. 

Remember, the ladder is JUST a foundation for trackwork. There's still rock and ballast and all that stuff to allow you to adjust the cross level. You do want to get the track gradient pretty right...but dips in your ladder are easily handled by the rock/dirt you put down around and on top of the ladder. You are NOT trying to emulate HO benchwork outside. Remember...the track we use works on plain dirt too.


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