# Do I have enough power?



## Darkrider (May 21, 2010)

Okay, so the track power problem still plagues my road. I have talked with my parents, and they seem to think that our transformer isn't powerful enough for the layout.

They are also suggesting to add multiple power connections to supply power to dead-spots. 


Currently, I have about 73 ft of mainline, plus a siding large enough to hold a Bachmann K-27 and four passenger cars.

Our current transformer is from an LGB Starter set...Is that adequate power?


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Greetings,

Generally speaking if you have enough power where the power connects to the track then you have enough power to run the train. What you are describing is usually caused by loose or dirty rail joiners and or dirty track. Rail joiners are great at aligning track but not so great at conducting electricity well. There are several fixes one is as you mentioned to add more track feeders, the other is to solder jumper wires around each joint and a third is to install good rail clamps. You did not mention weather you track was inside or out doors, if outdoors just the normal expansion and contraction will loosen the rail joiners up and then dirt and corrosion from watering and rain can get into the joint causing a dead spots. One of the reasons that I suggest that you add more feeders and rail clamps is that the metals that are used for rail do not conduct electricity well so a combination of rail clamps and feeders is a good way to go.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Rider... Methinks the porblem is your "transformer".







The small LGB starter unit works fine for an LGB 0-4-0 but I don't believe it's adequate for the K-27.

Might suggest a 10-15 amp power supply and you'll have plenty for now and in the future. 

When you do all the other wiring and connection updates as Andre suggested, both you and the locomotive will be much happier....


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

One power clip should be enough for 73 feet of track if the rail joiners are clean and free of corrosion and dirt. The current is through out the track. You really only have the engine 36.5 feet from the power at the furthest point.

Your LGB starter transformer is your problem. It is designed for a small engine and a couple of unlighted cars. If your 4 passenger cars are lighted, you are definitely over taxing the power supply. I support Stan's suggestion of a 10 to 15 amp source.


Chuck


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## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

For the first 4 years I was in the hobby I used an LGB 50081 1 amp transformer throttle. It ran an LGB Southern 2-4-0 w/sound and it pulled 3 D&RGW cars on 150 feet of track. The track had 2- 30 degree crossings and a siding. The track grade would have been no greater than 2%.
The secret to maintaining power was to use an LGB cleaning block and a number of Splitjaw rail Clamps. It wasn't until I bought an LGB Mogul w/sound and the lighted Drovers Caboose that I started experiencing power problems. 

I upgraded to a 3 amp Bridgewerks and problems were solved. Don't like cleaning track, don't want to buy rail clamps, upgrade to a 10 amp power supply and watch that engine take off. Regards, Dennis.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree the transformer is probably too small but 10 amps won't overcome poor connections. 

Two feeds and rail clamps. 

6reg


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

Power is like gold. You want all you can get and want to use as little as you have to. Your track connections need to be solid. If you aren't using rail clamps get some. Remove the rail joiners and replace them with rail clamps. Don't get the over the joiner type rail clamps. They don't work as well and are usually more expansive. Longer pieces of track means fewer connections and fewer rail clamps. I only use the LGB 4 foot sections of track. Cut the sections of track if I need something shorter. Same with curves. More power connections to the rails would be better. With only 1 connection the resistance of the electricity flowing thru the rails means that when your train reaches the point furthest from the power source it will get less electricity. Create a bus line from the power source and supply power to the track with feeder lines. One per piece of track would be ideal. I did it every other piece of track. Do it right the first time and you won't need to go back and do it over. Nothing is worse than having someone at your house to see your trains run and they won't run.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not to start an argument, but a "bus" type of power system has been shown to be a poor choice in large scale. Point to point from the power supply is better. 

The "bus" type creates a longer path for the power, and large scale layouts are so much bigger than an HO layout that the length of the power lines becomes significant. 

Add to that the fact that most people run somewhat undersize feed lines, you just don't deliver the power. 

Use the largest wire you can afford, run feeders every 20 to 30 feet and you can run anything now and in the future. 

Step down from that, and then quickly the joiners/clamps become much more critical, more maintenance, and less amps delivered. 

This is an endless argument, but it resolves really quickly when you "under build" the wiring and it does not work. 

The trackwork and power delivery system is the foundation of your layout, don't try to slide by and do it right the first time. 

Regards, Greg


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

as i am at wiring just now... 
Greg, 
in your opinion, are feeders of 2mm diameter stranded wire good enough for connections up to 30 feet? 

(in your measurements that would be 0.125" diameter)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It really depends on the amount of current you are drawing and the spacing of your feeders, and (in my opinion clamps or not), and length of track sections (sectional or flex lengths), and distance from power supply. 

Of course it also depends on the locos you are running and how many at the same time, but I recommend you design for worst case, so you never have to upgrade later. 

I don't have the metric to American wire gauge converter handy, but I found that #10 wire was adequate for 10 amps with feeders every 20-30 feet and run lengths of up to about 40 feet. Even then, a poor joint could give a noticeable reduction in speed (and of course sound change) if I am drawing the full current. 

I am running DCC and about 23 volts on the rails. A loss of 2 volts is noticeable. With the low internal resistance of locomotive motors, a poor connection or inadequate wire gauge can lose that pretty easily. Since I run constant track power, it is more noticeable than a person who is actively driving the loco, and just increases throttle on the far side, not realizing the voltage lost. 

1/8" is nice and large, just guessing that is somewhere between our #10 and #8. 

I did start with stranded #10 and am going to convert to solid #10 (the individual strands allow water to get into the jacket)... but the amount of copper is basically the same. 

The bottom line is I have seen SO many layouts underwired, and then when they finally realize that their wire is just not adequate, it's really inconvenient to rewire. 


Hope that helps, 

Greg


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

thanks. 
this wire is, what is recommended here for 230V householdlines, that have 16 Amp automatic breakers. 
they don't produce or import solid cable here. (but indoors i'm less afraid about moisture) 
feederlength will be not longer than 30'. the blocks for each powerpack will be between 15' and 70' each. 
any section/block will have max. four small motors running at the same time. slooowly... 
the track is mostly one foot sections with standard LGB connectors. so i'm a little shy to buy the big number of clamps, that would be needed. 
where i will measure notable loss of power, i will either solder jumpers or put additional feeders.


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

Replace those 1 foot sections of track with 4 foot sections. You should be able to find used 4 foot sections either here or on ebay. Then sell those 1 foot sections. You should probably listen to Greg. These isn't a subject or post on this forum that he doesn't know everything there is to know about it, and he lets you know that rather quickly.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well.. not quite sure how to that that last remark, but I did a bit of experimentation and measuring and also learned about how a few volts can make a large difference in speed. 

I had my new Aristo E8's and they would not go over 65 scale miles per hour. Adding two more volts raised the top speed to 92. Motors are funny things, they have a non linear relationship of speed vs. voltage. 

I also have measured voltage drop in many locations, and was very surprised on how much is lost even through high quality SS clamps. Joiners are usually worse. 

Now, as you say Korm, you are running slowly, so voltage loss may not be a big issue, nor does it seem you are not running large locos. But you are running 4 at a time, and you have blocks up to 70 feet long. 

If you can somewhat "overbuild" the power distribution system, I'll guarantee you that you will never regret it. 

That's the best information I can give. 

Regards, Greg


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Greg, thanks. 

rpc, i got a little problem there. or better said two. one is my location. here in the middle of southamerica there are no hobbyshops. 
the other is money. on this (my fourth) layout i am upgrading from curtain rails to genuine track.


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## Pterosaur (May 6, 2008)

I run 10 amp power supplies to a common "terminal strip" and pull power to separate track sections from there. The strips are available in the electrical department of any home improvement store.

One thing I have not seen mentioned that does seem to help is to coat each connection to the track with a rubber coating product like "Plasti-Dip". This keeps the connections protected from corrosion by sealing them from the elements. The "terminal strips" are indoors so I do not worry about sealing them. I also use low-voltage outdoor lighting cable for my power feeds. The cable is less expensive when you buy large rolls for both your landscape lighting and your track at the same time.


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## TY (Apr 8, 2009)

I have a live steam layout that's about 120' of flat track. The track is SVRR brass rails with slip jaw clamps. I am thinking of adding a Bachmann rail truck or some other small, single motor, electric engine for the kids to run. Question: Will the LGB 50081 120V 60hz 1 Amp transformer be enough juice for something like that? 

Thanks for any input!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Basically that transformer should be thrown in the trash. It will just barely run a small LGB (LGB has efficient motors) or a small Bachmann. With a layout larger than a small oval, you have longer wire runs, more connections, more loss. 

Try to get something larger. 

You did not mention location, number and gauge of track feeders. 

The Bachmann rail truck is indeed a light load, so to be honest, it should run fine since it won't draw a lot of current. Don't try anything much larger. 

This is a "get by" situation. Don't add lighted cars either. 


Greg


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## TY (Apr 8, 2009)

Thanks for the advice, Greg. I'm trying to get it running on a tight budget... I'm sure i'd be happier with a 10 amp set up. Maybe I should wait to afford something bigger...


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## TY (Apr 8, 2009)

I think I'm going to spring for the MRC AG990 Power G. It seems like I will probably be getting a bigger loco sometime anyway and I will just have to upgrade then... Plus, the MRC Power G looks pretty sweet


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

A 1 amp supply will run all LGB single motor trains as well as Bachmann, Aristocraft (critter and egg liner). 
Of course a large load will make the use of a larger supply necessary!! 
I purposely use a 1/2 amp LGB supply to test trains. This supply will run all LGB dual motor units and the motorized Pantographs as well however this is on rollers!! 

PS, size of layout does not matter for power supply current rating. A 1000 foot railway can be run with a 1 amp supply as long as the engine never draws over 1 amp. 

Voltage loss.... again does not matter as a 10 amp supply will have the same loss in the track wiring as a 1 amp supply as long as you stay at an amp or less. 

However when going to 10 amps users use heavier wire, so just use large wire to lessen the loss. You can always upgrade the supply when needed at a later time.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

But voltage drop does matter in respect to train speed, so that was the reason I ask about feeders. If you power a long loop only from one end, you may have noticeable drop at the other. 

Now drop is really a factor of 2 things, resistance in the wiring (which will be constant) and current, i.e. the higher the load the more drop you get... so you won't see the effects on low current loads. 

Regards, Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

We refer to wire gauge in the US, #12 is good, #10 is better.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

??? 

Are you responding on the post about 2mm wire diameter? 

Kinda wondering.... 

Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Yes, Is wire gauge an international standard.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Korm is in Paraguay, so they use metric... his post above is also from 2011, so I'm sure his concerns about wire gauge were answered a while ago ;-) 

Greg


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, the following should provide some help.

Wikipedia - Electrical Wiring:[/b]

Wikipedia - Electrical wiring in the United Kingdom:[/b]

Engineering ToolBox - American Wire Gauge - AWG - and circular mils:[/b]


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It appears that it is common to refer to gauge in square millimeters, interesting. I wonder if it is the the area based on physical diameter, or (as I suspect) the actual area of the wire. 

The rating seems to be on the equivalent copper cross section, so that stranded or solid, a rating of 2mm (squared) would have the same current carrying capacity. 

In the US, I believe that they do this for gauge too, so that physically a solid 10 gauge is smaller in diameter than 10 gauge stranded. 

I thought I looked into this once. 

Greg


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