# Need ideas for a retaining wall



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm looking for ideas. I've got about 30' of ladder roadbed that needs a retaining wall above to one side and below on the other side built. It's to be 12" tall at the high point and 4" high at the low point...and....it's an S curve with two 4' radius curves. I'm working up from a level situation, so I can put keepers back into the hill I'm building behind the S curve. 

I've thought about using cement board as a backing...or metal lathe....and covering the front face with veneer rock. That's a lotta work. I've thought about using Precision Board and carving rocks into it, but it doesn't bend. I've thought about using stackable block, but it comes in only 4" increments in height and this S curve has a constant slope to it up to the summit.


I want the retaining wall to be almost vertical...a shear drop if you may...between 70 and 90 degrees from horizontal...and I want it to be relatively thin because of the ladder roadbed in the middle of the upendicular walls. That's another argument for not using real rock or stackable block...the ladder roadbed vertical supports are in the way.


Any ideas out there????


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

HI Mike
I had a spot that was tall 20" and long by maybe 12 feet with track perched on top and close below. The top track sits on pt 2x4 's that I scrrewed together to form a "T" beam. I stapled hardware clothe to it near vertical and slopped cement onto it. At timesIi had to wait til it dried before I could put more on but it worked and is still holding up and this summer will be 4 years. That process though messy would work on your curve. The cement is maybe 1-4 inches thick. 
Another way that I have built a retaining wall is to take a 4 ply plywood cut it to the height and length you need then use your table saw adn cut a groove through just one of the plies. Reset your fence at 1\2 inch increments and keep scoring. When done I added upright supports using 
1/2 by 3/4 pieces of wood on the face and on the back I added 2 strips of wood to keep it from bowing over time and then gave the whole thing a bathe in wood stain. So far so good and that has been outside 5 years this summer. Maybe you could make smaller panels for your curved sections. 
Good luck. 
Todd


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

well Mike 
depends, are you going to fill the dirt first of after. 
I filled first , then used steel that, then real stones. 
I have a thread on it from a year or so ago. 
The stones was free ,thats one reason I used them.


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

I used a combination of cribbing and retaining walls above track. They could be used beneath the track as well.

Let's see if the link photo link still works...










http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/ri...08-Web.JPG


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Hey Mike, 

How about using your metal lathe idea, and the surfacing it with patio stone, like flagstone? You can score the stone and then bust it with a hammer to get the sizes you need, and place it so it will look like a continuous vertical, or near vertical, rock face. Also, you can control the height of the pieces much better to get the transition between your high and low points. Plus you can plant small ground cover plants in between the cracks, or make offset ledges for small plants. I think that would look much more natural, and just be better looking than stacked manufactured stone or carved precision board. 

Chris


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 01 Apr 2011 06:28 PM 
well Mike 
depends, are you going to fill the dirt first of after. 
I filled first , then used steel that, then real stones. 
I have a thread on it from a year or so ago. 
The stones was free ,thats one reason I used them. 
Yeah....I found your post on your wire and rock-on-top method when I was searching the site earlier. I'm looking for something much more vertical so I don't think it will work.


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## curlyp (Sep 4, 2009)

Here is the work in progress on some walls for my garden railroad. It is concrete over steel mesh









Hillside is dug out and forms with wire in place. There is a drainpipe buried in the gravel behind the creek-bed walls









The cliffs below the track level are started









Cliffs above track level are started. The space between the cliffs will be filled with 6" of crushed rock for drainage



















More rock work and coloring yet to be done. Creek-bed and pond will be finished and filled once work here is finished.

Paul Deis
D&P Mountain Railroad


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

I realized after Chris made his suggestion that I need to do it that way...with the flat rocks...so that the retaining wall matches the mountain I already put in. Now I gotta see if I have enough rock.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Another option would be to use sections of cribbing, either virticle or sloped...


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

On the Verdi Canyon Rail Road they used coregated steel sheets to hold back the Molten Slag. Looks real cool as long as your are not a neat freak 

JJ


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## mrh044 (Oct 11, 2008)

Nicely done Paul!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

The cribbing looks cool. I'd go that route.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Another nice look is pilings driven into the ground parallel to the hillside face with horizontal planks betwween the piles and the dirt. I'd use sections of retaining walls, these and cribs to break up the long rock face. 
My 5 year old cribs are still holding together, because I pinnined them with the glue. A pin nailer really speeds up construction; glue, assemble, pin, go. I leave my wood natural and the pins add nice streaks. 

John


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Richard Smith on 01 Apr 2011 06:42 PM 
I used a combination of cribbing and retaining walls above track. They could be used beneath the track as well.

Let's see if the link photo link still works...










http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/ri...08-Web.JPG

I really like the look of your cribbing. I take it that there is a tie back between each tier of the crib and all we're seeing is the end. Did you build that in place or in the shop? And, what kind of stain are you using?


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike

Not intending to answer for Richard, but the following might save him some time.

Excerpt from POC RR Part-II[/b]


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Steve. That does save a lot of explanation. 

Mike: In case you didn't catch it the stain is Behlen's Dark Mahogany in spray cans, #851-113. It is available from Woodworker's Supply. 1-800-645-9292 or woodworker.com Some items can't be shipped to California (hopefully not this one) so you might have to get a friend or relative in another state to order it for you and pick it up when you visit. 

They also have an excellent clear called Dead Flat 934-154 that is really dead flat (be sure & shake the can well). 

Any questions? Feel free to email me if you wish.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks. I have to also consider termites. All houses in California are built on top of termites...so even though I'll use cedar or redwood, I'll still have to put a preservative on the wood...and the stain.


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike, I'm guessing it might be pricey, but have you considered Bragdon Enterprises resin castings? Russ Miller told me that this guy in San Jose whose layout overlooks the city, has basically surrounded his railroad with resin castings and if you go to the BAGRS add for their upcoming open house in July, I believe you'll see a photo of the pike. Looks spify. Other than that, Richard's cribbing looks great. 

BTW, I know about them termites: as we speak my home rebuilder is replacing fence parts and even the molding on a window because of the dang things. Next time, we're doin' it in plastic, baby!


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By joe rusz on 11 Apr 2011 03:24 PM 
BTW, I know about them termites: as we speak my home rebuilder is replacing fence parts and even the molding on a window because of the dang things. Next time, we're doin' it in plastic, baby! Joe

Maybe, maybe not?








"Formosan subterranean termites have also been known to attack (but not eat) non-cellulose material such as thin sheets of soft metal (lead or copper), asphalt, plaster, mortar, creosote, rubber, and plastic in search of food and moisture. However, their highly publicized ability to chew through concrete is a fallacy. Instead of chewing through the concrete, Formosan subterranean termites are uncanny in finding small cracks in concrete that they use as foraging routes."

"In the United States, the Formosan subterranean termite generally has been confined to the southeast at about 32.5 degrees N latitude. As of 2000, the distribution of Formosan subterranean termites includes Alabama, Arizona, California (isolated infestation in San Diego County), Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Louisiana, Mississippi, New Mexico, North and South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia. However, the widespread use of central heating in the United States may encourage the spread of the Formosan subterranean termite."


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

If you're really ambitious, as well as innovative, I assume you're aware that the prototype RR's also used concrete cribbing? So you don't have to use wood to be prototypical. I would imagine that components could be cast in concrete. They look just like the wood type except for the color.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Here in Phoenix Concrete Industrial Buildings sitting on Concrete pads have to have exterminators come in and drill a hole through the pad about every 2 feet and pour termite poison down the hole all along the parameter of the building.


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## ddevoto (Jan 22, 2008)

Hey Mike,
I used Coldwater Canyon, a flat rock that is available here in California. It's great either flat or vertical to achieve a natural look. It comes in small to large up to about 20+ inches. Here are three examples on our RR. Got one to hyper link, a very frustrating process, maybe someday we'll get an EAST BUTTON.

Dan


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## ddevoto (Jan 22, 2008)

I meant "EASY BUTTON" at the end of my last post. Spelling, apparently, is not that easy! 

Dan


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan...I'm using that rock wherever I can. In some places, there's not enough room....so cribbing.


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## ddevoto (Jan 22, 2008)

Hey Mike, Most of the Coldwater Canyon I get is 1" to 2" thick. Maybe CW Canyon is a different type of rock in Southern California, I'm in Nor Cal. 

Dan


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

I've thought about using old roofing slate as a retaining wall. I would propose laying them flat. Offset them in 1/3 lengths for each layer. I think when done it would look like a shale hillside. The problem with this method is the amount of shingles one would need to find. But if you know of an old roof coming off you might be in business. Since they are so thin they would step very nicely to accommodate grades. I want to do a wall like this but can't find a source for the slate. I think I'm going to settle for some thin flag stone.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan...the rock I'm using is shown below in the photo. I don't recall the name, but it's on the invoice and I can get more if I need to. As I recall, I can get it in 3/4- or 3/4+ and in bolder. So, if I need more, I'll get the 3/4- for those narrower areas...but I'll still need cribbing in some spots I think.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

pardon the stupid question, but I always see photos of cribbing after it's been in place and have a hard time visualizing how it looks like or how it's made BEFORE being emplaced and covered with earth 

Dave V


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Dave, 
Well protypically they are built on site, usually before the fill is added behind. Deadmen and end cross pieces are placed behind to hold the wall back. Deadmen are perpendicular to the crib face and are inserted in the cribbing and are as long as the space allows. They may have dug out for the deadmen anchors or used an alternate way to anchor them against the hillside. Depending on the height and condition of the hill, anchors can be used all the way up, though at the very top wouldn't have much holding power unless the fill was sloped higher. 

On the workbench, the only thing you don't see later are the 'deadmen' that stick out behind. I usually make a couple for the bottom row with the cross pieces on the under side (T shapes). makes good legs for them to stand on. Others have just glued the crib to plywood and glued small rocks between the timbers to hide it. I can only put cedar in the gound so I make mine the 1:1 way. First I back fill with rock too big to fall through and then add smaller stuff that in time does filter down and out.

Look through the track forum, a gent did a fine series on building his, a lot neater than mine... 

John


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

yeah, wondering if you hammer in the deadmen. They say you should not disturb settled earth unless you want to tamp it later so I'm thinking you just take a sledge and hammer them in. Not sure how long they are. Also in mike's photo, he's got rocks there between the cross pieces. I'm guessing he put these in later for drainage. 

I've also seen retaining walls using some sort of chicken wire. 

Anyway constructions photos would be nice as pictures worth 1000 words or so


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Look in the forum, plenty of pics already there to 'splain it to you. 

Hard to hammer in a T shape, I'd cut trenches and retamp. 

The rock you see should come from the dirt behind as there are open slots.... 

John


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

thanks but I've been doing searches on the forum, which don't seem very friendly 

http://www.mylargescale.com/SearchResults/tabid/37/Default.aspx?Search=retaining+wall


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Dave, 
See Steve C's post on the first page of this thread. It's about 13 replies down. There is a clickable link to a PDF showing the construction of some cribbing on the work bench and how it was installed. very informative.


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## ddevoto (Jan 22, 2008)

Hey, Mike 

That rock in your photo is "Southern California flat 3/4 to boulder sandstone" LOL Yeh, I like cribbing too, I used it on one end of my pond bridge. It's fun to try as many techniques as you can to model your railroad. 

Dan 
P-Town & West Side RR


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By SE18 on 11 May 2011 12:30 PM 
thanks but I've been doing searches on the forum, which don't seem very friendly 

http://www.mylargescale.com/SearchResults/tabid/37/Default.aspx?Search=retaining+wall 


Yeah I apologize for sending you on a wild goose chase. After making the suggestion, I took it and went thru a dozen pages and was disapointed. Then I remembered a thread of mine where Greg E mentioned a thread that Rick Brown did, so I searched for him with no luck...

John


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

RE: searching MLS...here's the trick. Go to Google....on the search line, enter what you want to search for...then add "mylargescale.com"...and it limits the search to just ALL of MLS. Works great. Ignore all the search stuff on the MLS site itself...it just frustrates ya.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I dig back the soil to make it into the vertical wall. Then I drive stakes into the ground about 1" out and use drywall screws to attach 1/2" wire cloth. I crinkle aluminum foil and hold it in front of the screen and backfill the gap with concrete letting it squeeze out though the mesh into the foil to make the "rock pattern." I paint it with rattle cans.



I use stone of similar type to blend the concrete to either resemble lava or granite and represent rock that has been blasted away.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

THANKS. I found Steve's PDF (on page 2) to be extremely useful as there's a really steep area in need to crib this fall as my line approaches the back hill of my property. It would have been nice to see the back of the cribbing as it looks like he later decided to add some horizontal braces in the back during installation after he stained it, at least with the lower level of cribbing. But it is definitely enough photo to copy from. And the 18" brad nailer, air powered thingy will get more use; it always comes in handy. 

Thanks Steve and everyone. 

Dave V


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

What about what Duncan did.

Build a wooden tray with 1 1/2 inch sides or so.

Cover the bottom of the trap with stones. l

Put some hadware cloth on top of the stones.

Then pour cement or mortar mix over the top.

press it down through the Hardware cloth and around the stones.

When dry You can stand it up and it wil look like a stacked stone retaining wall 

JJ


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Nice method JJ !







I might like to try some building walls that way.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By SE18 on 12 May 2011 05:22 AM 
THANKS. I found Steve's PDF (on page 2) to be extremely useful as there's a really steep area in need to crib this fall as my line approaches the back hill of my property. It would have been nice to see the back of the cribbing as it looks like he later decided to add some horizontal braces in the back during installation after he stained it, at least with the lower level of cribbing. But it is definitely enough photo to copy from. And the 18" brad nailer, air powered thingy will get more use; it always comes in handy. 

Thanks Steve and everyone. 

Dave V 
a tad over size for your needs, but these show how...'



















On our models we don't need as many deadmen as these guys are installing. I use blocks in the crib and fewer to the backside dirt.

John


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

John, that's awesome; you definitely went the right way with that massive hillside. I see you hired help or fed them a lot of pizza and beer  

BTW, I've used Todd's approach with hypertufa, I just wanted to try something different with the woodwork 

Dave V


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Found those pics via google images... 

I live in the desert, I don't have real dirt! 

John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 12 May 2011 09:02 AM 
Found those pics via google images... 

I live in the desert, I don't have real dirt! 

John 
Yea The dirt here in the Desert isn't real Dirt. It is synthetic dirt. But we have real rocks.









JJ


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By John J on 12 May 2011 07:37 PM 
Posted By Totalwrecker on 12 May 2011 09:02 AM 
Found those pics via google images... 

I live in the desert, I don't have real dirt! 

John 
Yea The dirt here in the Desert isn't real Dirt. It is synthetic dirt. But we have real rocks.









JJ



Everything 'cept the organics....
John


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

One thought. Some people state using drainage tile...first thing I would do is REMOVE IT!!

I used it and it has been an achilles heel from the start....when you lay track ontop of it you never get a solid base it will always be mushy..shifty not a good solid foundation...nor should you use chicken grit as a base without using first crusher fines tampping it down throughly...that will make a very solid base.

Make your trench drain at an angle naturally...or dont listen and keep jacking with it like I routinely have to! 

Drainage tile only where your track does not sit upon it...If I had only known!!!!









Bubba


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Before I went to Concrete road bed I made this tool for tamping down dirty and crushed stone in the trench I made for my road bed.

I now used it to tamp down the dirt before I pour concrete road bed. 

It worked quite well 

I welded mine but you could make one by drilling and taping a mall then bolting a flat piced of metal to it the width of your trench.

It is well worth the effort. 


JJ


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