# Laying track on the V&T



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Finally getting serious with track laying. I'd written out a long post describing these pics, but it crashed on Submit.







But here's the photos again at least, I'll be short on the verbiage this time.



















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Thanks for viewing,

===>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Advice: Type some, submit, then edit it and type some more. 

If you have a situation where you lose posts, whether internet connection or the state of your computer or just hit keys accidentally, this will help a lot. 

Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I have had problems when posting a length post after I click submit it goes on for ever then a Error box come up and everything is lost. 

I have to start over. I have done the post and edit trick which seems to work .

JJ


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## DansTrains77 (Jul 15, 2012)

Hello,
It is looking good. What are you using for the sub roadbed on the elevated curve section? It looks so smooth.

Danstrains77


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## HampshireCountyNarrowGage (Apr 4, 2012)

Hey Cliffy, 

Is the crossing on the upper loop a connection with another railroad? What will hide the stub end toward the loop track? It's all looking good.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 11 Jun 2013 05:42 PM 
{snip...}[/i] I'd written out a long post describing these pics, but it crashed on Submit.







{snip...} 
Cliff

Another method of preventing loss of content, make a copy of HTML code and paste that into a blank Notepad document prior to clicking Submit button.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for all the good posting advice guys. 

Another method I often use is, just before I hit Submit, I do Ctrl+A Ctrl+C, which at least captures the text to the clipboard. This time I only remembered to do that just as I was clicking Submit...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By DansTrains77 on 11 Jun 2013 08:13 PM 
Hello,
It is looking good. What are you using for the sub roadbed on the elevated curve section? It looks so smooth.

Danstrains77 

Thanks Dan.

That's made of 2 layers treated plywood, glued / screwed and painted w/ masonry waterproofing paint. It's "temporary", and needs to last until I get a proper trestle built. 

The larger white section (at the top loop's fork), and the 2 short bridges, are made of 3 layers of hardi-board, bonded together, painted with the same rubbery masonry paint. They are intended to be permanent bridges that will be mostly hidden by, or incorporated into, a future mountain. 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By HampshireCountyNarrowGage on 11 Jun 2013 08:29 PM 
Hey Cliffy, 

Is the crossing on the upper loop a connection with another railroad? What will hide the stub end toward the loop track? It's all looking good. 
Thanks for asking Chester. I agree, it looks like that; but actually, it's an adaptation of a switchback and spur of the Nevada Mill in Virginia City:










At the upper left, you can see a car to the left of the mill. That's on the spur that juts out and abruptly stops. On my layout, it'll get surrounded by some mountains and a mill model eventually.

Thanks, 

===>Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

The main thing I wrote about, and wanted to say again, is that the track laying was really fun! Once I had all the tools handy, things sailed right along. Had a blast!

The lower section got laid a year ago. And it looks like new! The rail is NI-plated, and I think well worth the extra $. I'm using all Train-Li track & switches & clamps, and I'm really happy with the quality. 

I'll probably install switch machines next, and enough temp wiring to at least get a train running to check things out. The big next thing is the yard area, and the north loop & spurs. Then focusing on the electrical for the rest of the season. That's the plan at least.

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I like Your layout and work Cliffy!! Great going there!!! 

The old mining sidings and mines will create lots of cool flavoring on the layout.. 

Maybe during next winter you can work on a building or 3...!! Hint hint!! 

Cut and paste is cool, but the reverse works great also, do the post - offline - in a note pad format, then cut & paste that into MLS and submit, then your not hanging around an unstable site, while you try to get your thoughts on paper!! add the pix online and go...! 

Dirk


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dirk, very kind words!

Well, since you asked, I'd started a thread a few months ago on building methodology questions, maybe you remember it? Anyway, last February, I finally got the foam bits assembled:










I'll have to put the thing out on the track and take a pic. This is the Hale & Norcross mine, here's a proto pic:










Hard to tell, I guess. I had to do a lot of downsizing from the prototype.

OK, here's another protocol question, should I update that original / older building thread, or start another one, to post progress on that mine model project?

By the way, I finally found a good local source of bulk styrene! 

Ooops, I think I'm hijacking my own thread....

===>Cliff


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

We prefer the term Derail (ing)... as opposed to hijacking. 
Start a new thread, we like them to get pic heavy. Out of consideration of those with slow connections we start anew.... 

Cars parked at the end of a trestle were usually dumping tailings. There needs to be an economic reason to build it. Tailings had to be moved out of the way. That's one reason, another could be a tail track to a spur. etc... 

Got a track plan? 

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Track plan, hey it's built now guys!!! ha~~~! 

Sorry Cliffy - that was one of many threads I'm sure I missed over the winter months, impressive tho..WOW!!!! 

Ya 'could build the full size version for here tho!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no selective compression needed for me!! ha!! really....!! 

Say John feel like your foll'R'n me buddy, got your note today ( me 'puter's beeeen off fer a couple weeks till today,.. so sorry there!! ) 

Tell ya what Cliffy - it's YOUR thread here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Dirk !! :~}


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 12 Jun 2013 05:16 PM 

OK, here's another protocol question, should I update that original / older building thread, or start another one, to post progress on that mine model project?

By the way, I finally found a good local source of bulk styrene! 

Ooops, I think I'm hijacking my own thread....

===>Cliff 



If it was me, I'd repost in the older building thread. When you post, it brings it back to active topics. Heck I have a building thread that I started back in 2009 and still haven't finished. But every once in a while I find something new and post. I think it makes it easier for people to search/follow the whole thread in the future.

Craig


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 12 Jun 2013 12:44 PM 

Thanks for all the good posting advice guys.

Another method I often use is, just before I hit Submit, I do Ctrl+A Ctrl+C, which at least captures the text to the clipboard. This time I only remembered to do that just as I was clicking Submit...
If you just add the switch to HTML view before using the {Ctrl+A} & {Ctrl+C} you'll capture all of it (i.e. images, hyperlinks, text, and any formatting).


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hello John, 

Indeed, I have a track plan for the layout. Maybe on its 594th version, but pretty stable now. 

But did you mean prototype track plan? Unfortunately, I've located none for this area, it was very "ephemeral" in RR terms. Only photos to work from.

Bang-on about the economics. The reason for that spur "out into space" was to bring loaded ore cars (from various mines, not just the adjacent Chollar mine) to the upper floor of the Nevada mill. From there, it was all gravity for the dumped ore.

Thanks for commenting & asking,

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 12 Jun 2013 08:57 PM 
Track plan, hey it's built now guys!!! ha~~~! 
Yeah, it's pretty much "cast in concrete" at this point, Ha ha!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By bnsfconductor on 12 Jun 2013 10:27 PM 
If it was me, I'd repost in the older building thread. When you post, it brings it back to active topics. Heck I have a building thread that I started back in 2009 and still haven't finished. But every once in a while I find something new and post. I think it makes it easier for people to search/follow the whole thread in the future. 
Seems like good insight to me Craig, thanks. I find it difficult to find the sequel of a thread, so I'll bear your advice in mind when I get back to that model.

===>Cliffy


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Gee whilickers all ya brain surgeons ... just a simple line drawing of yer layout.... 

My layout threads all share the common "Last Frontier" header with different part names following... 

You can ask a modrator to change the name.... mebbe a bribe... 

John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

The area supported by the 5 wooden posts? Is that some form of Road bed or is that formed concrete?


The Layout looks interesting..

Will be looking forward to seeing how it turns out 

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 14 Jun 2013 05:15 PM 
Gee whilickers all ya brain surgeons ... just a simple line drawing of yer layout.... 

My layout threads all share the common "Last Frontier" header with different part names following... 

You can ask a modrator to change the name.... mebbe a bribe... 

John 
Didn't mean to give to the run-around John, my apologies! Here's the half-plan of that (south) side.









The shaded areas are intended to be (concrete) mountains. The (purple) track is now all laid. On to the north side:










Thanks for asking John,
====>Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yesterday, I got the trickier part of the yard pre-assembled on the bench.










Hope to get the layout north end track going today, not sure about the weather though.

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By John J on 15 Jun 2013 10:09 AM 
The area supported by the 5 wooden posts? Is that some form of Road bed or is that formed concrete?


The Layout looks interesting..

Will be looking forward to seeing how it turns out 

JJ 

Hi John,

Those are 4x4 wooden posts, not sunk into the ground but just stabilized with concrete around their base. The bridge is temporary, until I get the time, talent and nerve to make trestle.









Thanks, and I hope your trackwork is going well too. 

====>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

A question about Train-Li switch machines. Talking about the manual ones, which look just like the DCC ones without the DCC guts. 

I had left some out for a year, and because of the dirty conditions (the layout has looked more like a construction site than a garden!), they got grit in them. So I took them apart and cleaned them. But they were still sticky, when the covers were screwed back down. 

I sprayed WD 40 in there, but now I think that was a bad idea, because it might attached more dirt. I think I saw somewhere that graphite was preferred? 

===>Cliffy


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks Cliffy, 
Mighty Impressive! 
My RR just has one mine and I've been putting it off, my critters eat everything! More likely I'm lazy.... 
You have ambitious plans for sure. 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The train-li units come greased from the factory, appears to be silicon. Bodnar mentioned graphite, but graphite and moisture don't mix well. WD-40 is hydrocarbon-based and evaporates to a sticky residue, definitely bad on both counts, the train-i housings cannot take much weather. I'd use an inert silicon or synthetic grease. 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 16 Jun 2013 10:33 AM 
The train-li units come greased from the factory, appears to be silicon. Bodnar mentioned graphite, but graphite and moisture don't mix well. WD-40 is hydrocarbon-based and evaporates to a sticky residue, definitely bad on both counts, the train-i housings cannot take much weather. I'd use an inert silicon or synthetic grease. 

Greg 
Thanks Greg, that's a BIG help!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

The weather held out, and I got the yard fitted up today. 










The design is roughly based on the Virginia & Truckee's Virginia City yard, with LOTS of compromises. 
The three-way was in the prototype (though a stub version). This is from Train-Li, and I was really impressed with the craftsmanship.

Here's a shot from the other direction.










In the foreground are two additional bridge areas. Like the other end, these will start life as temp painted boards. 

Haven't anchored everything yet, but that goes fairly quickly with the hammer drill.

=====>Cliffy


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

WOW ! Looking Good 

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks John! I mainly have you and Marty to thank for steering me in the concrete direction, and I'm glad I went there.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Looks great Cliffy, the concrete will ensure many years of enjoyment.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Jake!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Almost done:










So fun laying the track! 

Those weeds are waiting to pounce though... I tell ya, this is like trying to make a garden layout somewhere in the Yucatan....







I envy your dry climate JJ!









One thing I've been learning the hard way. I had based the geometry (and therefore the concrete forms) on a constant centerline radius through the switches. But you can't run the rail bender through the switch. So either you pre-bend the track and cut off the tangents at the end, or live with some tangent at the switch. I opted for the latter, and that's why my track is having trouble following the concrete sometimes. If I were to do it all over, I'd leave some tangent area (at least 6") on all the legs of any switch.

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Cliffy, Our dry climate may make the spring grass and weeds look dead, but.. 

whench the rains come, ( in a week and a half now ) they'll make up fer' lost time and turn into monsters...! 

as the saying goes, be ware what one wishes fer'... :-} 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Sounds like yer callin' fer a weed race, Dirk. Ten paces over five days, and draw yer measrin' tape!


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

If Dirk uses a tumble weed to measure he has an unfair advantage. Have seen one go from "I think I got them all." to almost 2 feet in about a week during monsoon season. Wouldn't be bad, but they brings friends along. :-( Thus the large industrial grade backpack sprayer in the garage. 

After looking at your layout I'm considering concrete for several areas, especially those along the outer loops where tunnels will go. Did you use bender board as forms? If so how deep was the trench? 

Alan


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

4 in. depth will work , and 3/8'' re-bar floated in the middle... anything you have laying around that will fit your flex needs on a curve Alan... 

Don't ask How I knows these things... ( Marty ) :-} 

Grass on hormones is a deal breaker also... or is it steroids... 

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Alan,

Since cedar is harder to come by in Maryland, I went with 4" strips of masonite. Double layer on each side, so that all joints were overlapped and therefore smoother. The soil is very rocky, so I used rebar rods (vs. wood stakes), and wire to hold the strips to the rods. 










The longer rods were my last-resort problem solvers, when the short ones wouldn't do the trick. 

Other than that, it's what Dirk said, using Marty's formula. Oh, and 3"-4" of tamped gravel beneath the forms.

Thanks for asking,

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Oh.. and two _feet_? Hah! How 'bout over two _yards_?


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Now I'm just curious about one thing Cliffy.. how much rain do you get? 

Here in the south my area sees 10-12 in. of rain per year, last year only brought about 6 in. however.... 

Seems you may have lots more feed for your germinations, 

Pull - complete with the root, or spray well and stand back / watch.. 

I keep trying to clear off about a 10 foot wide right of way - 5 feet each side of track.. slow, and slowly showing results, less grows back each year... 

Dirk


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Dirk, 

Well, it seems like we get a t'storm at least every other evening. Near Baltimore, we average ~42" a year. 
I say "we." I'm a transplanted northern Californian who wishes he was a Nevadan. 

Thanks for letting me vent about my weeds -- helps me turn my botanic frustrations into part of the fun! 

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Hey Cliffy, seems you may be hedging your bet some Buddy!! ha... 

That's 42 in. of rain, eh!?? try dividing your 72'' plant by your 42'' rainfall, then our 24'' plant by 6-12'' of rain... now you see the problem, hehe!! 

Since you do not seem to use PM's, would you send me one ( a PM ), with your E-addy..? THX 

'WE' also came from N. CA. many years ago, and moved from NV. to destinations and points south, in 2001... Alan ( Fyrekop ), ran around in the same neighborhoods I lived in near San Jose and Cupertino!! Now we live here!! 

Vent on about your weeds... 

Dirk


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Cliffy


Try this 

If you are trying to bend a short piece of track. 

Get some Rail Clamps..... Split Jaw or Hillmen.

Two 12 inch pieces of straight track.

Then take a 12 inch piece of curved track . Can be any curve. Probably a tight one ( 4 FT) 

Clamp the 12 inch straight to the curved track using rail clamps. 

Use the rail bender to " Un Bend" the piece of curved to the desired curve.

Or do it the other way around Use three pieces of short straight track and bend the middle piece as desired.

Or use any curve and adjust it to what you need. 

That is what is great about a double rail rail bender. You can bed anything you want.

If you see short pieces of track at a swap meet buy some. Can be curved or straight 

When I was at the convention in Kansas City I bought a bundle of 14 pieces of straight track less then 12 inches long.

I cut them to fit where I need a short piece to complete a loop I also use them to do custom bending of short pieces of curve.

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

John, 
Yeah, I can see how those types of clamps would do the trick. I use the Train-Li joiners, which are two screws down into a machined block. I've (sort of) used your method with those clamps, but it didn't work as well as using a true clamp-type clamp. 
So thanks for the tip! 
====>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

A few weeks ago, I starting three different threads: on track, switches, and wiring issues I'm having. Thanks hugely to Greg E. and everyone else on those threads. 

The thread on switches & their control means: http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx
The thread on splicing & wiring: http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

Now that things are coming together, I'd like to pull everything into this track thread.

Yesterday, I completed the last track portions and placed anchors on this entire end of the layout.










For V&T fans, this foreground spur pair is that serving the ore bins of the Con Virginia. For concrete roadbed fans, here's how I dealt with switch machine supports:










Those are concrete bricks cut in half, and adhered with concrete construction adhesive. Lot easier than building the bump-outs into the concrete forms, at least with the form method I used. Also, this after-the-track-laying block-gluing allowed me to temporarily position the switch machines and locate the blocks right on the money.

Speaking of switch machines, I'm using Train Li manual and DCC types. I'd had several of the manual ones installed, they got dirty, and were rough-operating. Per Greg E.'s kind advice, I got some silicone-based grease, and cleaned / lubed them. However, the action is very sluggish, so I think I got way too viscous of a grease. Here's what I used:










What do y'all use?

Nuther switch question. The Train-Li DCC machines have two prongs that one apparently is supposed to solder directly to. Sorry for the blurry pic:











Isn't there a connector, maybe a Molex-type, that could go on these prongs? 

And, speaking of connections, and the prior thread on splicing, I forgot to ask what # of wire is recommended for feeders coming from the main (#10 wire) DCC bus, and tying into the rails.









That's the solder connector that comes with the Pro-Clamps, next to #10 landscape lighting wire. Either the wire looks too big, or the spade looks too small. Is #14 for the feeders good enough?

Well, that's probably enough questions for now. Here's my finally DCC-converted Guinea pig loco, and "power stack" (thanks again Greg),










Next week comes the wiring of the layout (involving 3 reverse loops), and, God-willing, first op's. 

Thanks so much folks for all the help you've been over the years. 

===>Cliffy


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Wow, cliff congrats on getting all of your track in. You sure have com a long way from one of your first posts I can recall with pictures of hundreds of re-bar markers and string grids, and you trying to describe it all. To top it all off, it looks fantastic too! Great concrete work and it all looks so flowing like it will be fun to operate. I'm looking forward to seeing it back filled with some building starting to sprout up here and there. Great Job.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliffy, you want to keep those connections free from moisture and corrosion.. I'd solder some wire to them and heat shrink the connections, or probably even better, the "liquid electrical tape".. 

Nice "stack" my man! Hint: those black connectors don't have a lot of "engagement" I put velcro ties over them to keep them pushed "home" securely. 

Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Cliffy, I use that kind of grease as a coating for O rings in water pipes, filters and pumps, etc... and steel in rubber. 
I don't think that's the stuff they suggested for a lube. 

I could be wrong again tho' 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They should not be sluggish, but you know that the speed is programmable? 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Nutz-n-Bolts on 30 Jun 2013 07:12 PM 
Wow, cliff congrats on getting all of your track in. You sure have com a long way from one of your first posts I can recall with pictures of hundreds of re-bar markers and string grids, and you trying to describe it all. To top it all off, it looks fantastic too! Great concrete work and it all looks so flowing like it will be fun to operate. I'm looking forward to seeing it back filled with some building starting to sprout up here and there. Great Job. Hey, thanks Randy, that's very encouraging!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Eh, we all agree, you've come along ways Cliffy. !!!! 

Trains will be running after the next intermission!! ha!! 

Keep it up... 

Dirk


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 30 Jun 2013 11:13 PM 
Cliffy, I use that kind of grease as a coating for O rings in water pipes, filters and pumps, etc... and steel in rubber. 
I don't think that's the stuff they suggested for a lube. 

I could be wrong again tho' 

John I think you're right, John, thanks. Greg, the "sluggish" I was referring to was the greased manual switch machines. Sorry for mixing too many topics in one post! 
I put in an email to Axel, so we'll see what he recommends for those machines.

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 30 Jun 2013 10:35 PM 
Cliffy, you want to keep those connections free from moisture and corrosion.. I'd solder some wire to them and heat shrink the connections, or probably even better, the "liquid electrical tape".. 

Nice "stack" my man! Hint: those black connectors don't have a lot of "engagement" I put velcro ties over them to keep them pushed "home" securely. 

Greg 
Greg, 

You know, I just checked out your site, and holy cow, your power stack looks just like mine!








Seriously, I really appreciate your articles & pics. I even got 5 dual-banana jacks...

Do you, or anyone, prefer adding in-line connectors to the switch machines though? If so, what kind? From what I've seen, they get bugs and grit in them, and seem in need of periodically removal for cleaning. 

What did you think about feeder AWG? Judging by your #14 (? 16?) feed from the booster to the banana string, seems like we're using the #10 to reduce voltage drop over the long buses. True? 
(link to Greg's pic I'm talking about: http://www.elmassian.com/dcc/my-implement) 
If so, I'm opining that #14 can also be used for the short feeders from bus to the rails... thoughts? 

THANKS!

===>Cliffy 

PS, once I "get the track laid and get trains running," I'll split out my controls questions to the DCC forum. For now, it's sort of a big hairball, so I'm combining my questions here.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

FVIV, her ist der viring diagramm fur das spitzen-shparken zu maken:


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 30 Jun 2013 01:39 PM 




Speaking of switch machines, I'm using Train Li manual and DCC types. I'd had several of the manual ones installed, they got dirty, and were rough-operating. Per Greg E.'s kind advice, I got some silicone-based grease, and cleaned / lubed them. However, the action is very sluggish, so I think I got way too viscous of a grease. Here's what I used:










What do y'all use?

Nuther switch question. The Train-Li DCC machines have two prongs that one apparently is supposed to solder directly to. Sorry for the blurry pic:











Isn't there a connector, maybe a Molex-type, that could go on these prongs? 

And, speaking of connections, and the prior thread on splicing, I forgot to ask what # of wire is recommended for feeders coming from the main (#10 wire) DCC bus,










Hi Cliff, Awesome layout btw looks very well done, I should have replied a lot sooner but I usually read the forums at work and can't send out anything, lol. 

For your questions here is how "I do them them", I have had very good luck with the Train-li drives, been in operation for two years now and except for the occasional broken servo arm they still work perfectly. 
I solder the track leads to the two leads from the switch and cover them with shrink wrap, and then attach them to the track using terminal ends and one of the screw mounts on the pro-clamps.



I set the drive speed using CV46 to 40 which makes the drives throw much faster and reliably.
I use graphite in the drives to lube the slider inside the switch, I also clean the inside of the switches occasionally because bugs tend to try and make their homes inside.

I also lube the moving parts of the switches with synthetic plastic oil.
For long term trouble free operation I also keep the switches and drives covered when not in use.
While NOT required it does help them to stay clean and hassle free.

Ron


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 01 Jul 2013 04:35 PM 
FVIV, her ist der viring diagramm fur das spitzen-shparken zu maken:











Is this how you wire your PSX-ARs?
I wire them directly to the track outside of the blocked zone and connect them to the "input" end of the PSX-AR, and then run the other leads into the blocked zone and connect them to the "output" end of the PSX-AR.
There is no need to run them back to the boosters, and also it doesn't matter which rail you wire them as the PSX-AR will auto correct it.

As far as attaching the power leads as well as the leads for the PSX-ARs to the track what I do is use stainless steel split jaw clamps and terminal ends.
You can buy the ones split-jaw makes specifically for this purpose or do what I do and just cut one normal clamp in half, it's much cheaper.

I use 12 gauge low voltage wire for all my leads.

Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliffy, if you haven't found it yet, I have a page that has information on the ProDrive, about half way down...


*http://www.elmassian.com...trong>** 

The whole issue with wire gauge is how much "voltage drop" you have.

The voltage lost in a wire is dependent on the resistance of the wire and the current.

Over short distances, a smaller gauge wire can be used, but over longer distances you need heavier gauge.

My runs can be 40-60 foot long, so I used 10 gauge.

Also, if you want your circuit breakers to work correctly, then the lowest resistance from the booster to the rails is what you want.

How long are the runs from your booster to the track?

By the way your diagram is, well, just beautifu! Nice drawing of what you are doing.

Regards, Greg*


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By BodsRailRoad on 01 Jul 2013 07:05 PM 


Hi Cliff, Awesome layout btw loks very well done, I should have replied a lot sooner but I usually read the forums at work and can't send out anything, lol. 

For your questions here is how "I do them them", I have had very good luck with the Train-li drives, been in operation for two years now and except for the occasional broken servo arm they still work perfectly.
I solder the track leads to the two leads from the switch and cover them with shrink wrap, and then attach them to the track using terminal ends and one of the screw mounts on the pro-clamps.

I set the drive speed using CV46 to 40 which makes the drives throw much faster and reliably.
I use graphite in the drives to lube the slider inside the switch, I also clean the inside of the switches occasionally because bugs tend to try and make their homes inside.
I also lube the moving parts of the switches with synthetic plastic oil.For long term trouble free operation I also keep the switches and drives covered when not in use.
While NOT required it does help them to stay clean and hassle free.
RonThanks for replying Ron, I was wondering how you handled your switch machines. So thanks for all the details, there's a lot there! 

Glad to hear your success story with these machines. 

I like how simple your wiring is. My first 3 machines will be controlled by the PSX-AR's, but I eventually want to convert all the manual machines for regular DCC op like you have. 


I wish there wasn't so much room around the throw bar for the bugs; I've had all kinds of 'em. Wonder if there's a pellet of something, like a non-degrading moth ball or piece of cedar or something that one can put or spray inside the case... What do you cover them with? 


===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By BodsRailRoad on 01 Jul 2013 07:37 PM 

Is this how you wire your PSX-ARs?
I wire them directly to the track outside of the blocked zone and connect them to the "input" end of the PSX-AR, and then run the other leads into the blocked zone and connect them to the "output" end of the PSX-AR.
There is no need to run them back to the boosters, and also it doesn't matter which rail you wire them as the PSX-AR will auto correct it.

As far as attaching the power leads as well as the leads for the PSX-ARs to the track what I do is use stainless steel split jaw clamps and terminal ends.
You can buy the ones split-jaw makes specifically for this purpose or do what I do and just cut one normal clamp in half, it's much cheaper.

I use 12 gauge low voltage wire for all my leads.

Ron

They aren't wired just yet; and the schematic is based on the DCC Specialties diagram. So good point Ron, I can tie them in just like you say. 

Thanks for the further wiring info. I'll start out with lug connectors and the Pro-clamps (already in place), and maybe switch over later to the split jaw, good tip.

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01 Jul 2013 07:41 PM 
Cliffy, if you haven't found it yet, I have a page that has information on the ProDrive, about half way down...


*http://www.elmassian.com...trong>** 

The whole issue with wire gauge is how much "voltage drop" you have.

The voltage lost in a wire is dependent on the resistance of the wire and the current.

Over short distances, a smaller gauge wire can be used, but over longer distances you need heavier gauge.

My runs can be 40-60 foot long, so I used 10 gauge.

Also, if you want your circuit breakers to work correctly, then the lowest resistance from the booster to the rails is what you want.

How long are the runs from your booster to the track?

By the way your diagram is, well, just beautifu! Nice drawing of what you are doing.

Regards, Greg

Wow, you really added a lot to your ProDrive article, thanks for pointing that out Greg, I'll be referring to it a lot!

I'm glad you brought up "runs" (plural). I'd always assumed there was a bus, and that feeders came off it. But from your article, I'd guess that you are "home running" your track feeds to your banana string. Is that so?

Thanks for the compliment on the diagram! My layout is about 110' long (including the reverse loops), with 3 or 4 power tie-in points. Using the bus method, said bus would, after all its meandering, be about 88' long with the stack located within 10' of the middle. Using a discrete home run method, the longest would be about 45'.

I've got a fresh 250' spool of #10-2, so plenty of wire. I also got the b'plugs, so I can use your method as well. Actually, I think I over-bought: thinking I would use the bus approach, I purchased 20 of those epoxy packs... What's the pro's and con's of the two approaches? Or am I missing something?

Thanks again!

===>Cliff*


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg, I like how you protected your gear with that downspout box.

My main local source (Lowes, sometimes Home Depot) though only had the boxes with the big knockouts already knocked out. And, they were out of stock. So I went to the ice cooler shelves (can't remember where I saw that article...), and nothing thrilled me much. Then I went over to the tool box section, and saw a big one that had a moisture seal all round. It was $30 (vs. $50 for the downspout box "kit"), and $60 for average rolling ice chests.




















Plenty of room for cords; and I'll probably need the tool tray for a while. There's a slightly smaller box version, maybe I should've gotten that. But the tray wouldn't have fit I think.

The seal is molded in, and seems quite robust.

I'm sure I need to leave thing open during ops. That's a natural advantage with the downspout box I suppose, it can always breathe. 

===>Cliffy


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 02 Jul 2013 01:57 PM 
Thanks for replying Ron, I was wondering how you handled your switch machines. So thanks for all the details, there's a lot there! 

Glad to hear your success story with these machines. 

I like how simple your wiring is. My first 3 machines will be controlled by the PSX-AR's, but I eventually want to convert all the manual machines for regular DCC op like you have. 


I wish there wasn't so much room around the throw bar for the bugs; I've had all kinds of 'em. Wonder if there's a pellet of something, like a non-degrading moth ball or piece of cedar or something that one can put or spray inside the case... What do you cover them with? 


===>Cliffy 






I use PVC Board from Lowes, check my build thread its in there.
I like to make them long enough to cover the switch as well so dirt and debris don't get in them.
I also like Tod's suggestion using the flower pot things, also an option.
Another tip when you wire up your switches I always make the leads longer than needed incase of 
a wire breaking or being chewed through, that way you can just splice them and don't have to re-solder another in.
For the bugs you can do what I do spray around them with insect repellent it seem to help.
(again these things are NOT required but helps to cut down on maintenance, I should just add the disclaimer to my sig lol)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would state that covering the switch motors IS required, I have lots of evidence of what the sun does to the cases. 

Maintenance is also required, in terms of keeping the area around them clear, the internal "arm" on the servo is prone to cracking. 

Don't do either of these and you WILL have increased failures. 

Ask lownote or RJ who have the longest experience with these units. 

Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

If you think you have a voltage drop problem Get a some what good meter and measure your voltage at the source. Then Measure it at the load. The difference between the source and the load should be your voltage drop through the wire. The load must be connected. You can not just measure bare wires.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By BodsRailRoad on 02 Jul 2013 08:37 PM I use PVC Board from Lowes, check my build thread its in there.
I like to make them long enough to cover the switch as well so dirt and debris don't get in them.
I also like Tod's suggestion using the flower pot things, also an option.
Another tip when you wire up your switches I always make the leads longer than needed incase of 
a wire breaking or being chewed through, that way you can just splice them and don't have to re-solder another in.
For the bugs you can do what I do spray around them with insect repellent it seem to help.
(again these things are NOT required but helps to cut down on maintenance, I should just add the disclaimer to my sig lol) 
Thanks for the further tips Ron, I'll look thru your thread more.

On the bug spray near your switch machines, I like it! Nice and simple! I didn't know that it might last any length of time, esp after any rain. Maybe the residue inside the box is enough. What do you use? And doesn't it mess with your graphite lube? 

====>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ron and Greg,

The need to cover the switch machines is, though sensible, sort of news to me...

Ron, I finally found the page on your thread that I believe you were referring to, so I'll plunk a link here so I can find it again. 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx
...and go to page 18

Greg, you make a good case on Ron's thread that these products should not require covering. Yet you mention in this thread the degrading effects of UV on the cases, and that some sort of covering is needed. What do you use? Or am I misreading what you wrote?

For my part, I've seen the bugs get into the inner workings of the manual machines and make quite a nice home. Some sort of deterrent seems in order. For mechanical protection from, e.g., deer, steer or beer, I can see something more robust. 

Thanks for the further insights!

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By John J on 03 Jul 2013 07:34 AM 
If you think you have a voltage drop problem Get a some what good meter and measure your voltage at the source. Then Measure it at the load. The difference between the source and the load should be your voltage drop through the wire. The load must be connected. You can not just measure bare wires. Great advice JJ, thank you. I didn't know you had to have a load connected to do the test.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Today I put up a shelf for the control gear, and ran a new GFCI circuit to power it.










I planned out the main feeds, and decided on 3 independent "home runs" back to this control area (vs. a bus w/ feeders off it). Less splicing that way. 

Starting assessing the PSX-AR mounting, and now another issue has come up. The lit from DCCS recommends a particular Radio Shack enclosure, so I got those. But, instead of the board installing inside the box, it mounts on the box's cover screw holes! So now the cover doesn't seat.










Bizarre. Anyway, I guess I'll mount the cover with a piece of rubber sheet sandwiched between... Unless someone has a better idea?
I was planning on hiding these inside a plastic building model, but I'd hoped to waterproof these units regardless. 

I'm open to better ideas... Ron? Greg? Other PSX-AR users?

Hope y'all're having a great fourth! 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Did some testing. Looks like the PSX-AR (J5, pin 1 & 2) puts out 18v DC (continuous):










Couldn't get it to "reverse" though, not that smart enough. 

I verified the Proline switch machine w/ 12-14 DC, it worked fine. So it looks like this equipment will match up OK. Thanks again Greg & everyone.

Here's how I've decided to make my rail connections:










That's #10 soldered to Train-Li's lugs (that come with the clamps). Though the right clamp is inverted toward the center (which I suppose is a no-no), there seems to be tons of clearance for the wheel flanges. If I point the clamp screws outward, the wire (being so large) tends to loop badly, but this way all lays down neatly.

Tomorrow AM, running the "mains" to the rails...

Adios amigos,
===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Couple more things... 
About the NCE DCC antenna:
I'm starting with only one, and hoping it gets reception for a radius of 65'. I tested it to 70', and then it started to cut out. So we'll see.
I need to get a longer cord for the antenna unit (looks like a regular phone cord) that's about 30' long. Hope there's no issues in making it that long, because I'll need to install antennas much further away eventually.
===>Cliffy


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Cliff all I did was shave down the lugs on the lid until the were even with the lip, then I made a bead around the lip with silicone for water proofing. I also drilled some drain holes in the bottom of the box to allow any condensation to escape.

You should be fine with just the one receiver for your layout . I bought a second just in case for very right end of phase 3, it's about 130 from the reciever, but didn't need it. I am still able to controll everthing all the way over there and even from the basement

Ron


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

That' great hands-on advice Ron. So you're keeping the lid on the top, drilling the drain in the box. Makes sense. 
I imagine you're grommeting / siliconing the wires exiting the box somehow.
I'll need a small (internal?) connector, because my 2nd (from J5) output is going to a Proline switch machine. 
Great testimonial on the antenna, I'll be sure to report on my findings. Did you use a regular phone cord to it?
Thanks very much!!
===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I ran my three main "feeders" today, meaning I mostly dug and filled trenches. 










In this example, the feed branches to the upper and lower legs of my main wye. Greg, those are the Scotchcast packs at the junctions. They worked very well!

Discovered a bad connection on the underside of a track switch, but was able to resolder it. 


Anyway, I have three coils back at the central control area, tomorrow I expect to dive into that and the return loop wiring. 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Today was a big one for me, in setting up the DCC equipment, getting my first (DCC) train running, and checking the new mainline track.

I was convinced somewhere back that the PSX-1 circuit breaker was a good thing to have, and here's how I mounted it.










This illustrates the "struggle" I've had all day with the beefy #10 wire. Probably wasn't necessary in the short runs, but I'd forgotten to get some #12 or #14, so I went with the #10.

Then came the "stack" wiring:











I ended up going out to buy the #14 (white and black). The joints with the #10 are soldered and wrapped with a self-adhering rubber tape.

Out on the layout, I then terminated the 3 feeders installed yesterday with the banana jacks (another great idea from Greg). Took a while to gradually snipe the #10 stranded wire to fit the jacks, but that's ok.










Lots more wire management to deal with, but I mainly just wanted to get a train running today.

And to do that, I needed to install some switch machines. BTW, I found a silicone spray lubricant made by CRC, so I used that on the switch machines. 

It was SO COOL being able to use the handheld as I worked my way down the line. 

I ran into issues with my three-way, looks like certain guard rail filler areas are too shallow for my flanges, and need to be gouged down. Some of the other switches seem a little rocky, so some additional debugging seems to be in order. My Hartland loco is real jerky, but that might be a lube issue, we'll see.

Here's my work train: 



















Tomorrow come the reverse loops...









===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Today ended up being prep-only work for the reverse loops, starting with the Proline switch motors. Basically I followed Ron's advice, soldered on the leads, and applied heat shrink.

I should add that I think I blew it in using #14 wire for this, because it's so stiff that I'm concerned for the motor leads if the cable gets bumped. So I may need to redo this. 

The leads are short, because the route length to the PSX-AR (which will control the motor) is not quite determined (I'll explain why in a second post). Since I couldn't find a simple outdoor connector, I'll use these wire nuts to connect to that longer wire.










Ron, maybe you addressed this in your build log, but I missed it: did you install your own LED's on these units? If so, what did you use, and how did you seal them?

The bigger work was in prepping the PSX-AR's. The following pic shows the white jumpers just above the transformers, in order for the thing to trip at the higher amperage (~8). Does everyone do that? 











Anyway, the orange leads to the inline connectors are from J5, which will control the switch motors. The other leads are the in/out to the track. I made them a little longish, for flexibility in parking the plastic buildings that will hide these.

Here's the finished boxes:










I sealed the boxes w/ silicone, but something tells me that was premature... 
Anyway, the red tagged cable is main line, opposite is return loop track, center is to the Proline.

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

About that center cable. It is clipped short and will connect to a 10' to 20' run over to the motor, not sure how long yet, and here's why. 

So, I've found that the motors take about 2 fat seconds to flip, which I didn't know until a couple of days ago. That means that the "trigger" (insulated gap) needs to be far enough from the switch, in order it to be open for the speediest typical loco causing the triggering (and coming out of the loop). 

I was planning on a 5' section of track between switch and gap, but now I'm thinking 10' is safer... But, if I'm remembering correctly, I need to make sure the gaps are longer than the longest train, because one doesn't want any trailing metal wheelsets commanding the loop and switch to fight the locomotive. I did some quick calc's, and that makes my longest train about 12-14 feet. Which may be fine, but was hoping for more breathing room.

Question: what's the typical top speed (in feet per inch) of a steam locomotive? 

I've been assuming that the system should be designed to run at full throttle, just in case. But I should ask, is it common practice to just limit operational speeds in certain locations? Like, maybe I should just plan on going slower anyway? 

Sheesh, the closer I get to operational stuff, the more stupid I feel!! 

So thanks for your help, 
===>Cliffy


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Cliff, 
Your speed question has too many variables ... which scale, passenger or freight, mainline or branch.... 
In your case What was the average and fast speeds of the V and T? 
Drag freights 10 -20 mph, 
Fast freights 20 -30 mph 
Passenger; 
Mixed 10 - 30 mph 
Hotshot Passenger 40 - 60 mph 
(These are my guesses) 

Uphill or down? Winding or straight track? 

I take comfort in: The older I get, the less I know. 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would not use the jumpers for the current setting, but set programatically, so if you change setting it's a CV not a soldering job. 

You also will need access to the programming jumper. 

At 8 amps, you should be ok, but I added the optional heat sinks, I set mine over 8 amps. 

Also, the optional sonalert is nice to help bring attention to a short. 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 07 Jul 2013 04:27 PM 
Cliff, 
Your speed question has too many variables ... which scale, passenger or freight, mainline or branch.... 
In your case What was the average and fast speeds of the V and T? 
Drag freights 10 -20 mph, 
Fast freights 20 -30 mph 
Passenger; 
Mixed 10 - 30 mph 
Hotshot Passenger 40 - 60 mph 
(These are my guesses) 

Uphill or down? Winding or straight track? 

I take comfort in: The older I get, the less I know. 

John Those are all GREAT questions, and I should know the answers off the top of my head... Um.... but I'll have to do some research.

You're answering my question though, if you are saying that it's legitimate to design ones model RR to go not much faster than the prototype. The other argument is that one should design everything for worst case: max throttle everywhere, in case the person at the throttle isn't knowledgeable or quick enough. What do you do?

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Jul 2013 12:02 PM 
I would not use the jumpers for the current setting, but set programatically, so if you change setting it's a CV not a soldering job. 

You also will need access to the programming jumper. 

At 8 amps, you should be ok, but I added the optional heat sinks, I set mine over 8 amps. 

Also, the optional sonalert is nice to help bring attention to a short. 

Greg

Thanks Greg. 

If I stay with hard-wired 8 amps, is there any other reason to access the program jumper? 

I knew it was premature to seal those puppies up...









What did you think about the "stack" wiring? 

====>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Your stack looks good!


I was surprised at how often my units would trip at 8 amps. At 9 amps they say to use the heat sinks. As you have figured out, I don't run stuff near it's limit.

You should visit my page on the psx-ar / dcc specialties: *http://www.elmassian.com...trong>

A little work will fit it in the box better and accomodate the sonalert and the heat sinks:










Greg*


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Oh... you filed away the ribs about 5/8 inch, and I suppose the screw pedestals... and drilled holes right at the block outlets... clever. 

And though you don't show it, you must have used (plastic? or m-f posts?) standoffs and different screws to put the cover on... Huh. Nice work! 

I'll check your article, I guess I missed that one. 

Thanks once again! 

===>Cliffy

15 minutes later.... 
Great article Greg! I found it at http://www.elmassian.com/dcc/specif...pecialties
Well, I was off on the depth... but how did you screw your covers on?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By CliffyJ on 08 Jul 2013 01:43 PM 
Posted By Totalwrecker on 07 Jul 2013 04:27 PM 
Cliff, 
Your speed question has too many variables ... which scale, passenger or freight, mainline or branch.... 
In your case What was the average and fast speeds of the V and T? 
Drag freights 10 -20 mph, 
Fast freights 20 -30 mph 
Passenger; 
Mixed 10 - 30 mph 
Hotshot Passenger 40 - 60 mph 
(These are my guesses) 

Uphill or down? Winding or straight track? 

I take comfort in: The older I get, the less I know. 

John Those are all GREAT questions, and I should know the answers off the top of my head... Um.... but I'll have to do some research.

You're answering my question though, if you are saying that it's legitimate to design ones model RR to go not much faster than the prototype. The other argument is that one should design everything for worst case: max throttle everywhere, in case the person at the throttle isn't knowledgeable or quick enough. What do you do?

===>Cliffy 



What to do... At first I was the grouchy Uncle John ... Now I hope changing from 18v to 14v batteries helps.
You can progran a top speed into your throttles/locos....

My philosophy; Models go slow to realistic fast, Toys go fast. I have models, you will be allowed to bring your toys and break them if you wish. A cheaper Thomas works here.

John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good thoughts, John. I didn't know max speeds could be programmed in, but that sure makes sense. But since all I want to do is decide on where to chop some rails, I'll restate the question.

1. Main thing is how much track length to allot for a "speeding" loco to get from point A to B in (say) 2 seconds.
2. The prototypical max is about 35 mph (to be confirmed... it might have been closer to 20 or 25), which is about 2.14 FPS and 4.3 feet of track. 
3. The locomotive I eyeballed want about twice that though; I figured it needed about 8' for a 2-second triggering length. It's been raining, and I'm kicking myself for not having gotten better data on Sunday...
4. Of course, future loco's will be different...
5. My concern was the scenario of handing the throttle over to a visitor or neighbor kid, and they'd let 'er rip.
6. Maybe I'll always have programmatically limited speeds to proto mph, but maybe not. I screw up all the time.

So, here's the question: For a safe, 2-second A-to-B window, how fast should I plan on? The max I can go is 5 feet per second (10'), but I'd like to get it down... 

Follow up question: Is it regular DCC practice to programmatically limit top speeds, and do they really "stick" well to the locomotive? (You can tell I've never done this...). 

Thanks, 
===>Cliffy


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Jul 2013 12:02 PM 
I would not use the jumpers for the current setting, but set programatically, so if you change setting it's a CV not a soldering job. 

You also will need access to the programming jumper. 

At 8 amps, you should be ok, but I added the optional heat sinks, I set mine over 8 amps. 

Also, the optional sonalert is nice to help bring attention to a short. 

Greg 

Greg what's the reason for upping the current trip from the stock setting?I didn't change anything and the PSX-ARs (that would make them 3.81 amps I think) seem to work just fine with everything I have tested them with.
(Though I have not run the GG-1s through them yet) 

If I should up the voltage they can be programed right on the layout right? What's their default address?

Thanks, Ron


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Both of my units are set like Gregs and I also use the alarm system. When short occurs it will get your attention in a hurry. Later RJD


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

About that lead-in track length for throwing the switches: I just did some tests, turns out my engine is running at about 3.2 fps / 52 scale mph. 

That's about 3 times too fast, so hopefully the programmed "governor" process will work reliably. 

As belt and suspenders, I'll add 10% for faster locos, and make the lead-in tracks 7' long. That should leave about 20' for the shortest reversing loop section, and I sure don't see needing anything beyond that. 

Thanks for your patience with all my rambling... And thanks John for those speed examples. 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I got word from Axel yesterday that Train-Li uses teflon spray in their switch machines. 

===>Cliffy


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

I talked with Tony about the PSX-AR trip current settings and now understand the reason for the higher amp cutout.
For those also wondering Tony explained it very simply.

The trip current setting on the PSX-AR is for shutting off all power to the track in case of a short circuit.
If the engine your running is drawing more current than the PSX-AR trip setting it will think the track is shorted out and cut all power to that section,
which brings your train to a halt. 
Some engines like the USA Trains GG-1 for example draw much higher current (it draws about 5-6amps at speed), than say an Aristo Craft or LGB engine,
and would cause the PSX-AR to cut power to the reversing loop completely sensing a short circuit, rather than just reversing the polarity like it should.
One other thing to keep in mind is never set the trip current higher than your boosters out put or else it will never trip.

Cliff here is the link on how I added the LED's to my Pro-Switches, they have been very reliable and I have not had to replace any of the LED's yet.

LED Install on Train-Li Pro-Switch

Ron


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for that link Ron. It's been a couple years since I'd read that thread, and I just read thru the whole thing again. I'll echo Axel's praise of your omni-directional and bright LED picks.

I don't suppose you have handy the info on the plug you used to go into the board? Or did I miss it in your write-up? 

My situation is a little different, in that the main line, in a few cases, can legitimately be said to go thru the straight or branch of the switch. For example, my main yard has three equally valid "main line" routes through it. There are a couple other cases, but I won't belabor the point. 

I haven't thought it all through yet, but I like the idea of the bi-color LED, indicating (in my case) east vs. west (or, if you like, toward the house or away from it







-- it's pretty much that simple). Greg, did you and RJ ever figure that out? 

Great work Ron, 
===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

In reference to my earlier question about what kind of connectors one might use, I just stumbled across & read Dave Bodnar's article on the subject: 

http://www.trainelectronics.com/Articles/Connectors/index.htm 

Sure enough, for higher current app's, the "Deans plugs" are readily available. Here's a very inexpensive 12-pack with heat shrink: 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deans-Plugs...Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19d8e196cd 

I just bought 2 packs, in anticipation of more easily removing switch motors for servicing, and also for (later) building lighting. 

Thanks Dave! 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Installed the PSX-AR's today. Two worked great, one not at all. The loco would come to the gap (that the unit is wired to both sides of), and just stop. If I pushed it past, it started up again. After taking a break from the whole thing, I went out and "walked the line." Wouldn't you know, I'd installed the second pair of gaps (insulated joiners) on the next lower loop... Sheesh... Fixed that, and now all three loops are up and running!

That leaves the next problem: the PSX-AR's aren't powering the Proline machines. The measured output reads + or - 17-18 VDC. It's supposed to be 12 VDC max (per the lit for the Tortoise, the switch machine for which those outputs were designed: http://www.circuitron.com/index_fil...000ins.pdf). The Proline switch machines tested fine at 14 VDC, and should take anywhere between 12 and 28 V.
So I don't get this at all... 

But maybe it's another mega-stupid thing I'm overlooking? 

Any clues would be greatly appreciated!

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Today's progress: 

Tested the outputs from PSX-AR J5 again with a different meter, still 17-18 vdc. Checked everything else, still no joy on the Proline operation. They make a tiny noise like they're trying to move, but that's it. I emailed DCCS & Tony's for help; we'll see. I hope it's not a matter of insufficient amperage... 

Next, I got to the antenna mounting. I had a 25' phone cord, but voila! I found by experimentation that one needs a special 6-wire version. NCE lit doesn't describe the cable required other than "cable." In a footnote to the RB02 lit, they do mention it has 6 wires. But thanks again to Greg (http://www.elmassian.com/dcc/specific-manufacturers/nce-equipment/procab-mods-a-tips), I at least learned what cable (RJ12 6 conductor) to search for. So I got that on order. 

That's about it for the day... 
===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I got some news today about the PSX-AR's, but I'll divert that to the DCC forum 'cause it looks like it'll be involved....


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

The solution to controlling the ProDrive (sorry, I tend to call it 'ProLine', my mistake) seems to be in hand. 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/34/aft/128733/afv/topic/Default.aspx 

That effort will involve a custom circuit board that piggybacks onto the PSX-AR, in the same enclosure, using the same wires in and out. I'll finish reporting on that topic, using that thread, and will eventually come back to this thread when more generic track issues resume. 

Presently, I've got a number of such "track-laying" issues to diagnose and resolve, including inconsistently powered sections, rough traversing of switches, and a really rough-moving locomotive (my first DCC conversion, a Hartland 4-4-0). But since the three reverse loops drive this whole arrangement, I'm sort of stuck on that story's success before I move into these further matters. 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

After a long, but ultimately successful, sideline with reverse loop control (http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi.../34/aft/128733/afv/topic/afpgj/1/Default.aspx), I'm coming back to track issues. 

I've only converted one loco to DCC, and I'm having problems with it. It's a Hartland 4-4-0, bought it new, haven't used it much. After re-lubing it, it still runs really rough on the (outdoor) layout -- jerking itself along. This is new nickle plated rail, no oxidation. Also, it "bucks" as it goes: with almost no weight on the pilot, and a lot of vertical play in the pilot mounting arm, the loco seems to teeter on its front drivers, and "bucks" with each driver revolution. Maybe there's a fix to this? 

But I just discovered something that's not helping at all. The short story is that my LGB indoor test track measures 45mm in gauge, which conforms to the NMRA standard. The 4-4-0 doesn't buck on that. But, my outdoor (flex) track, on straights and bends, is measuring about 44.1mm. The permissible min gauge is 44.86mm: 

http://nmra.org/standards/sandrp/pdf/S-3.2 2010.02.24.pdf 

Has anyone encountered this? If so, is it normal practice to re-gauge all one's wheelsets? From what I've seen so far on my Hartland 4-4-0, I'm not sure if that's possible. 

Clearly, there is more than one issue here, and I've only just begun to "debug" the track. 
So any insights would be most appreciated! 

===>Cliffy

(a couple hours later...)

My initial measurements were with manual calipers. For a better read, I needed to get some batteries for my digital calipers. So I did that, and took a bunch more readings. Here's the results (all in MM):

LGB track: min 45.33 avg 45.64 max 45.90 measurements: 8
TL flex track: min 44.26 avg 44.45 max 44.58 measurements: 14
TL switches: 45.06 avg

So, though it's not as off as I'd thought, my flex track appears to average .41 mm (.016 in) below the NMRA min.

The switches seem fine. The flex track has some later play in it, if you press the rails apart. My measurements were with the calipers relaxed against the rails, not forcing them away from one another.

Now to the loco. I measured outside the flanges on an LGB mogul, and then on my Hartland 4-4-0.

LGB mogul: front: 44.00 rear: 43.84
HLW 4-4-0: front: 44.85 rear 44.49 


Well, that says a lot. My front drivers are within the LGB gauge, but .4mm over the flex track average gauge. That explains why I've not seen the problem on my (LGB) test loop. And it also explains why that 4-4-0 seems to be trying to climb out of the track as it bucks along.

More later...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I tried to (carefully) tap the front drivers together on the 4-4-0, but no movement. Left a message with Phil J. at H-L-W, maybe he'll know what to do. 

In the mean time, looks like I'm stuck with adapting an LGB mogul to DCC, and continuing track debugging operations from there. For that, I'll continue to use this thread: 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/34/aft/128950/afv/topic/Default.aspx


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

A little update. On Thursday, I DCC-converted a different loco, this one a used Bachmann "industrial" mogul with "precision can motor." Got it all put together, and low and behold, it had stripped gear. Trying to arrange replacement parts. 

To proceed with track debugging, I decided to modify the Hartland front driver axle for a slightly narrower gauge. Using a dremel, I ground down the shaft end and shoulders by approx .03". Put the wheel and side rods back on, and tested it. It worked so much better! 

So I'm proceeding with track debugging.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Another update on the track debugging. (I'm not retired, I just took a week's vacation time to work on this). 

My one crossing (30-degree) didn't have continuity to one leg, due to too-short screws on the underside. Found longer screws, and put in external jumper wires to ensure that leg's powering. 

Otherwise, in testing each siding, the track / switches performed well. I'm so glad I went with this nickle-plated rail, because it hasn't required any cleaning, even over some sections that were laid over a year ago. 

My test loco, though still working, has more issues that I'm only gradually discovering. E.g., one driver is slightly askew from its axis, encouraging it to climb out once each revolution. With the one-truck tender pickups, which work only sometimes, it became clear today that the loco was sometimes only picking up power from 1 driver pair. And when that pair hit the unpowered switch frogs, well, all stop. That happens pretty much all the time at low speeds. But a high speed, the loco sort of catapults its way across the frogs. 

Obviously, more work to do here. 

Nice to have a place to log the story! 

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

A novel, by Cliffy... 

Hi, had to drop in!! 

so how many locos are in pieces on your bench now!!??? 

I lost count., sorry... hate when that happens... 

seems like My "Napa Valley" 2-8-0, a C-16, would be right at home here!! An inspection tour.... 

Dirk -


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I opened up about 8, but just 2 on the operating table at the moment... A gimpy Hartland 4-4-0, a stripped-gear B'mann 2-6-0. 'Bout to tear back into an LGB mogul this weekend... 

I'm glad someone cares Dirk... *sniff* It's been a bloody mess in my little shop...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Well, it's been an interesting week since my last post on this thread.

Crash and burn on the conversion of a replacement for my 4-4-0 test loco, but then all suddenly went VERY well. 
The Bachmann mogul restoration: http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx
The LGB conversion: http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

Got a cart made last weekend, to bring gear from shelves to layout and back. Here's my first test drive:










Plastic cart by RubberMaid, six spare shelf boards with grooves cut, pretty basic. Took a while to trim / shape the boards to fit well and still lift out, but it was a nice lo-stress project. 

The cool thing is that I'm up and running again. Here's the (finally!) converted loco, with the above passenger cars all nice and lit up.










This is the first model train I've ever run. 

If the rain holds off, I want to see how the lit up train looks tonight, that's always been another milestone in my mind's eye. 

The reverse loops, including ProDrive operation and remote triggering, are working perfectly. 

Track-wise, I clearly still have issues. The first became evident when the loco came from the fork-end of an R7 switch (from a loop, towards the exit), and when "bang" against an invisible something. Very weird. I backed it up, came over slowly, and *bang" again, dead stop. I found that a metal skate of the LGB loco was gliding over the too-low plastic frog, and hitting the end of the rail going toward the points. I modified the skates, by making the angle of their leading tabs steeper. More to do on this matter...

Otherwise, things went a lot better (vs. my ailing 4-4-0). But judging by the merry flickering in the five lit-up cars, and sometimes jerkiness of loco motion, electrical matters aren't done. Need to get that DCC meter, Greg. So, onward and upward.

I'm thrilled to be at this point of the project. I love this track, haven't touched it (though probably should wipe it off), and I'm sure the switch issues and my oversights will be ironed out. And I'm so glad to have a train running on it, thanks to a lot of very helpful guys here on MLS.

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Well,...a very BIG. round of applause is sent your way!!!! 
Go for it Cliffy.. moving vid for tonights run... 

Dirk. - DMRR. & DMS Ry.,


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dirk! 
Sunset at 7:30, t-storms forecast for 9:00, I'll do my best. And yeah, I should do a video...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's a crappy video from last night, mainly demonstrating that a) I don't know how to use this camera, and b) the flickering is a show-stopper.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Looks like I need to clean the rails & wheels, and add a capacitor. I think that means rectifying to DC, as discussed elsewhere: 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/34/aft/129107/afv/topic/Default.aspx 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I did a bit of track diagnosis this morning, with my new "meter car", discussed here:
http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...spx#308031
The "car" involved was a recently-orphaned tender from a certain Industrial Mogul that I fear is on its way to a landfill outside of Philly. 

As I rolled the thing along, and let it sat, sometimes it would read full voltage, other times random amounts less than that. Twisting the car gave full voltage though. So that told me the top of the rail was probably dirty, because the flanges were at least picking up juice. A quick wipe on a test section, w/ windex on a rag, made the meter read solidly at full volts. 

I didn't need to scrub the track, just wipe off grime. So I got one of these:









They use disposable cloths, which I sprayed some Windex on. Went over all the track in about a half hour. Lo and behold, the train and lights worked SO much better. I didn't see much flickering at all, and the engine ran a lot smoother.

I'm sure this isn't big news to most, but this was the first time I've wiped the track, because it looked so clean. No visible difference, before and after. But I guess there was enough dust / whatever to degrade continuity, such as:










OK Greg, you have a whole page on this somewhere, I'll bet...









Anyway, I ran the train (LGB mogul, 5 heavy Aristo sierra cars) a few times back and forth on the main line, gradually ramping the speed up to full. All loops worked fine, no derailments (even through the yard). So far, so good! 

Side note, I really am appreciating LGB's dual-output motors and worms. These Aristo cars are heavy, so the amount of torque required at the driver -- and the load on the very few engaged gear teeth on the driven axle -- must be impressive. I can see how single-worm motor blocks would strip out twice as often. 

So for further testing, I'll take a couple of cars off. 

===>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, I have an entire page on track cleaning, and the swiffer is what I use... get the wet wipes, not the dry ones, you will be amazed, and they are a bit tougher than the dry ones... 

*http://elmassian.com/tra...trong>** 



Greg*


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

That's hilarious! 
Yeah, I wasn't sure what the wet ones were soaked with, so I ended up putting them back on the shelf. Good to know they're OK!
I just read your article -- another excellent one, Greg, thanks.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I used a pressure washer for the first time yesterday. 
Got all the house siding done, then tried it on the little patio abutting the layout.
Wow, what a diff. Wish I'd gotten one of these things years ago.










===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I did some testing today, using the meter car and this setup for the load:










I've calculated the 2 bulbs (24v, 100w) to pull around 7.1 amps, at 20.5 (initial) DCC volts, but I wanted to try and check this rig. Unfortunately, my meter has only a DC amps setting. So I put a 10a diode in series with the bulbs, and found that 1 bulb pulls 2.0A, 2 bulbs 4.0A. So perhaps without the diode, they're pulling 8A.

Anyway, for actual checking of voltage drop, no such diode was used. 

I did the readings for each of my three layout sections, placing the load car at the furthest point available for each section. Then I kicked around the meter car, and noted the volts.

A few general findings:
[*]Some switches have about .2 or .3 vdrop across them. Some don't, but that might be because the rails are being fed from both directions. More work is needed.[*]Overall, with switches and an average of 75' of track, I might be averaging 1.5 volts lost [/list]
To do all this, I needed to learn how to program a PSX unit to allow higher volts. Though I'd jumpered the thing for 8.9A, it wouldn't tolerate the two bulbs. So I had to snip the jumpers and program it to the highest setting (~15a) to keep it on.

I've yet to program the PSX-AR's in the same manner, so I couldn't test the loop sections they control.

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

My big thing to do this season (after track laying & wiring) is to clean and stain the deck I made to get from the house to the layout level. 

I guess the lesson I'd share is "be careful not to make your deck too big to maintain, especially if your hip joints can't keep up."









Anyway, after 2 weekends of pressure washing, and 2 days of staining, here's a progress shot:










Probably two or three more days, should be all done. 

===>Cliffy


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Love the Deck. It will make for a great viewing area for the railroad.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Jake!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

And over in this corner..Cliff is working hard before winter drifts by. 
He wants to get the deck stained. Pix...More track down. And cut some wood for the stove this winter.. He plans to stay warm and work on indoor projects all winter. 

So Cliffy..what do you think about a visiting dignitary train, meeting up with one from CA. A special dignitary train will be traveling from the NAPA area, picking up folks enroute to AZ. Stops in the Bay area, S.CA., the border, Tucson & Vail. Either extra cars can be added to this special, or a second flagged train could be a part of this traveling group! All to meet in Dragoon... 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I like the deck too. Looks great. 

You seem to be doing well with your test car. 

Have you found anything abnormal yet ? 

Voltage drop does not see to be much. 

You could leave the test car at the farthest distance from the source then check along the way for voltage drop. If there some significant drop Measure across the Joints with the meter leads on the rial. You might see a drop across a joint. Unless you soldered jumpers around all joints. But still a bad solder joint can drop volts. 

JJ


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Well its looking great. Love the track plan and whole theme of the RR. I get lost trying to read through the pages of DCC. I thought you never had to clean SS rail?? I've been watching but have not said much. LOL


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliffy, wow i am impressed like Marty on your track plan and your track work, Also skip out on the DCC, since I am a battery dude. But you keep going with what your plan, DCC has 
some great possibilities, for the simple minded people like me just cant wrap our minds around the complexity. Trust me the battery system has issues also. So it is picking your choice of poison 
and what antidote you choose to use to fix it. Don't get bogged down and discouraged, or get trapped in what others may say, listen to advice, and much good advice has been given 
here and will continue to come. My only advice is, follow your GUT. 
Keep up the great work, 
Keep us posted with your work, I saw in one of your drawings, concrete mountains, now that got my attention, and looking forward to your post on that. 
thanks Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Wow, what a nice bunch of encouraging posts, thanks fellas!

Dirk, you're reading my mind exactly, ha ha! And are you talking about a 1:1 train you're going to be spotting near your property? Who's the dignitary? 

John, I've not completed the "fine" testing, only the "coarse," so more to come. With Greg's help, I upgraded the load car to 9 amps (using thermistors). If you're interested, it's the last couple of posts on this thread: http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

Thanks Marty, and know that you and John -- by way of good advice and how-to's -- have played a big part in that concrete roadbed! The rail is nickel plated, and like SS it doesn't have oxidation to scrub, but it does need to be mopped of dirt once in a while. 

And Dennis, pleasure to hear from you, and I'm a huge fan of your concrete mountains. So you can bet I'll be posting on that subject, hopefully next summer!

The weekend before last, I finally for the staining done. This is the first time in years that the old deck and new additions match. 

Oh no... no photo insert buttons... has my membership elapsed? Have to check...

===>Cliffy 

[edit]
Bummer, I've been bumped down to a buck Foreman... And no renewal notice! Well, I just renewed, so we'll see how long it takes.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

no - I was thinking of the NAPA Valley RR loco - C-16, I ran at John's this year, and a throng of cars carrying important "dignetaries to Dragoon" the DD run...ha! 

Just 1/24th or 1/20.3 ish... sized stuff...! Which led to me wondering out loud about getting some V&T cars and maybe a loco... to - of course - run here.. 

Dirk


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Sounds like an interesting idea idea, keep at it!

Well, I got my 1st Class back, and am feeling much better about myself.

Here's the finished deck:


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

What are them tall things..? 

Dirk .....:-D


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 01 Nov 2013 07:02 PM 
What are them tall things..? 

Dirk .....:-D 









Yea Them tall things!. I was going to ask the same question. I remember seeing them a long time ago. What ever they are They are in the way cause the guy in Nebraska cuts them down. 


JJ

PS That red looking thing looks real nice too.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Wow, you flatlanders are harsh!!! 

I like the tall things, keeps the sun off your neck. I got a lot of them too.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By jake3404 on 02 Nov 2013 10:00 AM 
Wow, you flatlanders are harsh!!! 

I like the tall things, keeps the sun off your neck. I got a lot of them too. 



We have hats that keep the sun off our necks. And some of us use shade generator machines AKA Patio Umbrellas. .


The deck does look great. ....Nice color

What is the Black Ball looking thing in the first pictures on the right ? . 


JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By John J on 01 Nov 2013 07:37 PM 
Posted By SD90WLMT on 01 Nov 2013 07:02 PM 
What are them tall things..? 

Dirk .....:-DYea Them tall things!. I was going to ask the same question. I remember seeing them a long time ago. What ever they are They are in the way cause the guy in Nebraska cuts them down. 

JJ

PS That red looking thing looks real nice too. 
Those tall things are special leaf, branch and seed generating products I had installed, just in case the hobby turned out to be too easy.









And I'd be quite happy to ship most of them to Nebraska, ha ha!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Jake, nice to hear from you! 

JJ, that "ball" is a wind-whirlygig thing. Even after balancing, I've not seen it turn in the wind once, go figure. 

Just got done clearing the paths down the hill, so my mother-in-law (who lives next door) can take walks down to the creek. Ugh, my non-RR task list seem endless sometimes...!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

What's that...Flatlanders ... you say! 
2 or more posts is a concensus!!! Not harsh...ness! LOL... 
We're Desert Dewellers.... 
Trees take lots of water...and lots of time..sum'thing the desert doesn't give out easy... and usually only with a fight! 

Like JJ...I only remember tall trees.. thought they grew in forests on the mountains.... 

Still ..nice setting Cliff... 
....course..I could be liven on the tree line.... 

Dirk


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

We have trees here in southern AZ they're just shorter and have really nasty thorns. I thought I saw a large pine but it turned out to be a disguised cell phone tower next to the Mall. 


Alan


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Cliffy 

That really is a great deck / observation tower. I have friends that live in one of the canyons along the Huachuca Mountains that would pay you to build them one. They were more impressed by the deck than the trains but no accounting for taste.  

Alan


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Don't let them fool ya, we have trees. We just keep them up in the sky islands.... 

They're really just big straws taking water from the ground and sending vapors upward.... 
Why the ladder? 

Happy Rails, 

John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Speaking of Trees.....You got Tree hugers there? You think they are tough


Wait till you see Cactus Huger. Now there are some tough people 

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Alan, but warn them that any picket they put up, they'll have to stain or paint some day, ha ha!

Cactus huggers... now that's funny, JJ! No tree huggers around me, only neighbors who, like me, can't keep up with chopping down the seedlings. 

Hey John! Dirk says you had to have your computer repaired. Did the hamsters finally die?









===>Cliffy


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Instead of fixing my pc, my newphew stuck my noisy Vista hard drive in an old XP my sister had. Now it's noisy and I'm afraid to turn it off lest it goes to sleep like the Vista pc did with that disc.... lost all my pics. 
Good intentions that harmed........ 

Didya haveta remind me? 

Nice composit pic btw. 

John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 03 Nov 2013 04:25 PM 

Nice composit pic btw. 

John Thanks John, I do it with some freeware that came with my (now long lost) Canon camera. It's called Photostitch, and it works quite nicely and easily.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Where's the latest survey team photos? 

TEAM V&T.... 

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good point Dirk, I'll put something up.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Looks the V&T Survey Team went AWOL... on a work detail out of town!!! 

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yep, left town and forgot to post pics! Thanks for the reminder Dirk!

Not much to show, but here's an example of the survey markers I've been using. This is all for better determining what the terrain is, for planning later expansions.



















These markers (plastic knobs on rebar) represent a 40' grid, with a corner of the house as a starting point. It took quite a while to position these markers, because of the slopes. I used a distance laser (an older Bosch model), and some white plastic targets clamped to whatever I was measuring from. For some markers like the one in the foreground here, to get a good horizontal measurement, I clamped the laser to a level, and stood on a ladder while taking the reading. Using a plumb bob, I gradually confirmed when the marker was 40' away. I'm not describing this very well, but you get the gist.

When the 40' grid was done, the fun part started. I'd been saving up for a rotary laser level, which would mainly be used for future trackwork grading (as Dirk is doing); and this was my first experience using the thing. Basically, I set the thing up on its tripod, and -- using the detector that comes with it -- marched along these grid lines, and (roughly) in between, taking relative elevations. It's important also to get an elevation for a fixed baseline spot, such as a patio slab. Later, I did the math, and got some fairly good elevations relative to my baseline. 

The result was a much improved idea on the terrain. So much so, that I'm flip-flopping my plan for a 3rd phase to the other side of the property. I may not get to that phase, and I've not even completed phase 1 yet. But I love the planning, so... 

A couple other good things fell out of this process. I had been concerned about how much time it would take in getting the locations of trees. I was imaging standing at the base of a tree, and shooting to 2 known targets, and doing the math (somehow correcting for elevation). But it turned out to be simple. I set the distance laser's tripod over a point on my 40' grid, and started shooting horizontal distances to each tree trunk in range. (These trees are like telephone poles). Then I went to a different grid point, and repeated the process for the same group of trees. Doing the math, and adding the radius of the tree, I found where each tree was with respect to those 2 grid points. What made these readings possible was a nice overcast day.

The other thing was fence lines. Using the laser distance meter to white targets on the fences, I found where they were. And it turned out that my grid (and therefore house) was about 8' further south than it was supposed to be. 

BTW, the rotary laser kit I got was from Johnson. It's a "consumer level" product, but pretty good from the reviews I read. 
http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202258...pJSxsQ3uAg

If you are interested in this sort of thing, make sure you get the detector and a grade rod (to which the detector clamps, giving your elevation when it chirps). An "elevating" tripod (where you can crank the laser up or down) is helpful too. 

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ya know ya wanted to show ur plans there Cliffy.. 

Looks a might hilly ...could create a fun challenge tho for the V&T mow crews... 

Stay warm buddy! 

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yep, 
Yep, 
And will try! Been having highs in the thirties for a few days, so the indoor / winter projects are looking mighty interesting...!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 25 Nov 2013 02:56 PM 
Yep, 
Yep, 
And will try! Been having highs in the thirties for a few days, so the indoor / winter projects are looking mighty interesting...! 
Uh oh! 73 degrees here, not a cloud in a clear, blue sky.







But I digress.......................


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Well it was great of you Gary to share the clear blue sky tonight..and the sunset!! 
Had 20 degree rise today.. 

Started with frozen FOG tho, lifting before noon. But it came right back..was kinda weird. 

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Brutha Gary... 

:{O


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 25 Nov 2013 05:37 PM 
Thanks Brutha Gary... 

:{O 


Cliffy,

It IS the "change of seasons" here in SoCal......dropped all of 5 degrees from LAST week!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Rrrrr......... mustn't... throw... anything...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

....and it will warm up for Turkey day in your neighborhood?!! 

have some pie for me!! don't ferget the whip cream topping...!! 

:- } 

D


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Got the leaves raked up? 

and all those pine needles..... 

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Dirk, 
Well, it's been pretty quiet on the V&T... I'm afraid the crews have all been working indoors for the last few weekends... 
And now snow's a-comin this afternoon, so there ya go. 
But thanks for asking, Buddy. 
Cliff


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

You'll want that new plow ready soon!! 

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Speaking of plows, and inspired by Jerry Naptowneng, I took a pic of the V&T's snow crew at work:










Although several tries were made, the crew finally gave up and went to the pub. 










After an argument over how much snow load the pub could take, the crew ordered a round or three, while making a few observations:
- There was ice on the rails, under the now-crusty 2-day-old snow
- Lots of driver spinning, and the engine wanted to cooperate
- The plow itself worked fine, using the sky loco
- They were going to put weight in the gondola, but never got that far

Finally, a few lessons were discussed: 
- Not sure if an LGB mogul can ever be made heavy enough to do this properly
- But, might have worked with this amount, if the snow had been really fresh 
- Seems like a heavy live steam loco would be best for this sort of thing...
- Or a rotary, like GaryR's Snow Annihilator (sadly, the V&T never got a rotary...)(but! they might have borrowed one from the CPRR in a pinch... hmmm....) 
- Main good thing, the mogul WAS picking up power and (DCC) signal, even though the rails were damp










===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Was just looking into how early the CPRR had rotary plows, and here's a drawing from 1890:










And according to this article, the CPRR had built this rotary 3 years prior:

http://books.google.com/books?id=BF...mp;f=false

So while the V&TRR never did borrow it (from what I've been told by experts), they could have. 

Just musing,
Cliff


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Snow looks like fun CJ. 

Like your drawing above of the CPRR rotary, I would think your little LGB could be happier if it had some friends to help push the plow thru the snow with..... 
Ya just need 2-3 more locos doing the work.....no sky locos, ha!! 

Nice winter story !!! 

Dirk


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I am like Gary A. We have been in the mid 70s all week. I have some work shirts that I cut the sleeves off of and I have been wearing them. I had been beautiful here in AZ. 

JJ


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Cliff

Nice snow shot, being in the same region as you, I also called out the crew:










And had the same result, ice on rails restricted effectiveness, tho the 3 work horses tried their best.
So I switched to battery power:










That helped, but still not enough to do all the ROW. Unfortunately no one had plowed the path to the tavern, so the crew returned to the old J&S coach for a nip

Regards

Jerry


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Nice pics Jerry, and hey, we even have the same plow! 

I've never done a simple lashup on (non-DCC) rail power, maybe I'll try that, I'll have to look for gear ratio compatibility though. Thanks for the idea Jerry. 

Week after next, you up for the Cantina again? If so, PM me. 
Cliff


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Since your moving slowly here multiple locos may not need to be exactly matched, so long as one doesn't run away from the rest of the pack!! 

More traction... 
More push.... 

More fun!! 

Dirk


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Dirk 

AND the ice on the rails guaranteed that they all slipped at the same rate! 

Jerry


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Great thoughts guys. Too late for this snow, it's raining out now. But next time I'll go non-DCC, that'll allow me to use some unconverted locos. 
I'll have to be careful with the loop switches, and unplug their (DCC) controllers... just thinking out loud. 
CJ


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Slip & Slide.... 

Haha 

Dirk 

Thx Jerry!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's what I'll try next time:










The Heisler at the left needs repair, but the Shay & Climax work fine, and run near the same speed. Four motors on the rails should make a diff.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Cliff

That should do it. I love using double and up geared locos, they look good

Here is last winter plow with double headed Shays

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OMJ4Nehjxk


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Sa-weet, Jerry! Those 16 driven wheels look like they have some nice traction. Be interesting to put a spring scale on 'em to check pull force.

I'd be tempted to add my HLW "Big John" just for grins, but I'm not sure if my "test track" transformer will handle it (60va?). I'm really not set up for non-dcc rail power, but to run these non-converted locos I'm tempted to see what it would take, for situations like this...

Don't know about your work crew this afternoon, but the task here has been scraping ice and slush off the driveway. From the weather reports, it sounds like anything left today will be around for a while, and we've got a nice hill for our cars to climb. 

Cliff


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff,

I think it's at least 20 powered wheels. The lead Shay is a three trucker. Can't tell what the trailing one is. Chuck


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good eye, Chuck -- as always!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff:

My 2 truck Bachmann Shay has a 2.5 pound tractive effort (26% of engine weight) and my Bachmann Climax has a tractive effort of 2.25 pounds (31% of engine weight). From my experience, pushing snow takes a lot of tractive effort.

Chuck


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

They are both 3 truck Shays, and they can pull a load, slowly..... 

Jerry


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

How do traction tires work on ice? 

Do I send my SD70 back to snow country for pushing snow around?? Ha!! 

It only has 8.5 lbs. or better of traction on a good day....read dry day... 

May have to assign it to my own MOW snow fleet!!! 

Dirk


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirk, if they have chains, it might help. My guess is that ice cold traction tires wouldn't add much traction. Chuck


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Mini-loco chains. Now there's an idea we could chew on!! 

Alternate traction devices... 

An idea to develope..serrated flanges and treaded or grooved surfaces.... 

:-D


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

D; the micro chains might work if hooked to the front coupler and gently pulled with the left or right hand. This assumes that you are still standing after the first tug. We had freezing rain the other day and footing was less than stable. Chuck


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Nay we dont need no chains 
We need a scale sanding system that will dispense 180 grit aluminum oxide abrasive on the track 
Control it with your RC, should be a best seller north of the Mason Dixon Line 

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

This discussion has given me an idea. I have measured the tractive effort of some of my engines by attaching a fishermans spring scale to the rear coupler and increasing the voltage until the wheels start to slip and recording the weight on the scale. If you are running out in the snow and have access to a spring scale try to hook it to the front of your plow and pull it through the snow. See what the weight is as you pull. Record the depth, snow condition (wet, dry, light, heavy) and let us know. Maybe with some observations we can figure out what might be needed to push a plow. Chuck


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Conversely Chuck, somehow if doing the same by pushing the plow itself in various snow depths, one may get an Idea of just what it takes in actual effort to push a plow and also maintain forward motion.. 

Both ends of the challenge here... 

Same as I have done to measure both locos pulling power and a trains load to move x amount of cars by .. 

Thus matching both better ...!! 

Indeed fun with our trains!! 

....Dirk


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess that you could push the plow or train with a kitchen scale and determine the resistance, or pull it with a fisheman's scale. Either method should give a clue to the tractive effort needed to go through the snow, or pull the train.

Chuck


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Cool ideas, guys. I agree Chuck, it would be nice to have some real data, and eventually some rules of thumb, like how many driven wheels you need for X inches of snow. 

Here's one small data point: 6 driven wheels were no match for (slightly crusty) 4" of snow. 
And from Jerry's vid, it seems that 20 wheels easily took on, what, 1-2" of (crusty?) snow? 

I'm sure there's more to come... today it's been below 10 here, but it finally got to around 15.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, from my experience measuring the tractive effort my engines, the weight of the engine is the most important factor. The number of powered wheels doesn't stand out as an important factor. The more wheels the less pressure per wheel, even though the total pressure is about the same. As a rule of thumb the tractive effort is about 1/3 the weight of the engine. Some are as low as 25% and a couple approach 40% of the engine weight. Chuck


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Chuck, 

Understood, makes sense. So a better example would be loco pounds to snow inches? 
Still, I'd imagine a brick duct-taped to a Porter wouldn't do as well as a 3-truck shay having the same mass. 

Pondering further, it seems like we need the loco mass to compensate for the lubrication of the ice, and otherwise improve the coefficient of friction for whatever contact area we have in play. (I'll bet Jerry could come up with the equation in his sleep, but I sure as heck couldn't). So I'll suggest it's both: tractive force per driven wheel, and number of driven wheels. 

But, that's where your testing suggestion would prove interesting.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, if there is ice on the rails, YOU ARE DOOMED! You will not get power either via DC or DCC. If the rails are below freezing and there is even a dusting of snow, any snow left on the rails after the passage of a heavy plow or engine will melt under the pressure of the weight. As soon as the wheel passes t he new water will freeze to the rail. There have been times when in a very light snow I could get around once. Then the entire mainline was a sheet of ice, thin, but no traction or power. Battery is probably best, but there is still the traction. Chuck PS, I'd put my money on the porter with the brick.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Not disagreeing Chuck: those traction issues are the first to deal with, and a heavy loco is the ticket. 

And two heavy locos is even better.

[edit]
Dirk, you made this car, right?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6912306634/


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

If the Porterr and Shay weigh the same I'd bet on the porter, the more weight per axle the better the water displacement, we don't face real world porportions, scale weight is a mere root of the whole. So I want the best chance of steel on steel, ok alloy on steel.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, I have yet to measure the tractive effort of my USAt GG1. It's one heavy beast. It should handle any snow up to its height. I'm not too eager to carry it up stairs to weigh it and I'm too lazy to being the scale down. My guess that it is on the order of 50 + pounds. That should push a plow through snow as deep as the top of the plow. As an aside, my experience in plowing snow in Denver and Virginia says on average I'd rather push dry power in Denver, than wet cement in Virginia. Chuck


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Wow, 50 lbs... Oh, right, the GG1. 
So, 10 axles, 5 lbs per, 6 of them driven, right? 30 lbs over 12 drivers... Could probably plow your garden with that!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff:

here is my traction table.

Chuck





Number of 


Pulling Power
with tt
without tt

Number of 
Wheels With
Weight
Pulling Power
% of Engine
% of Engine
% of Engine
ENGINE
Powered Axles
Traction tires
(lbs)
(lbs)
Weight
Weight
Weight
LGB







AT&SF Diesel
6
1
9.4
2.5
27
27

Diesel F7a
4
1
8.75
3
34
34

Mogul (2-6-0)
3
1
7
1.5
21
21

Mallet (2-6-6-2)
6
2
9.8
3
31
31

Forney (0-4-4)
2
1
7.6
2.75
36
36

AristoCraft







Mikado (2-8-2)
4
0
11
4.5
41

41
Mallet (2-8-8-2)
8
0
14
5
36

36
Bachmann


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Very impressive and methodical!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry for all the garbage. I used to be able to paste an excel table directly into a post with all formatting. To place this table I had to put it in a word file and then paste the word file in. Hence, the garbage. Chuck


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Yes Cliff, I built the "Tractive Effort Test & Research Vehicle" car....! 
A mouth full ugh!!? 
Gives a good relative comparison of pulling power, or effort consumed to pull whatever train is behind a loco.. 

It is a stand alone vehicle that can measure coupler pull forces using only the loco and test car. 

Red bricks fit inside the two spaces to generate weight to allow the drag arm to create resistance against the loco. When using all 4 brick ballasts the vehicle weighs over 43 pounds!! 

Dirk


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks, Cliff. I guess that it is my geological research background. I try to cover all the variables. 

Chuck 

PS, this is how I measured the tractive effort. with a fisherman's scale. I gradually increased the voltage on the track until the wheels started to slip and then noted the weight on the scale.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Dirk, wow, 43 lbs! You should market that bad boy, very cool! 
Chuck, I did a quick division of your total lbF by driven axles, and it seems your Forney wins in that regard. I guess that's what John was saying. 
CJ


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Don't know if you want to fill in some blanks Chuck..or not..!! 

Using My somewhat modified SD70mac, with all 12 wheels running traction tires, weighing in at 19.375 pounds. Tractive pull measures greater than 8.5 pounds which comes to 43.8% of loco weight... 

Dirk


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Tractive Force article, fyi: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractive_force


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirk:
That table was made several years ago. Maybe when it warms up I should go out and update it. Today's high was about 15. 
I've got the USAt's GG1, Hudson, and SD70Mac to measure. Did you add weight to your SD70?

Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff:

Maybe I should use pulling power instead of tractive effort. Less technical. Thanks for the link.

Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirk:

I just noticed that the USAt SD70Mac is in the table mine weights only 11 pounds with a "pulling power" of 41%. Your added weight makes a difference.

I'll add your data to the table.

Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff:


Yes the LGB Forney is a great puller. It easily out pulls the LGB Mogul. I should add the Stanz to the "to measure" list, it is another supper puller, for its size.

Chuck


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Chuck, I..... did not add weight. 

But the weight increase is all from on board batteries and radio components..only.. 

Still quit a gain, but also it was two sets of batteries. Total of 9 AMP hours/ 18 volt packs (4.5 Ahr ) 

- it is an extreme example, as such not sure I could wring any more from it. To date I have no test data for My dual motor trucks yet.. for future testing and goofing around with here!!! 

Dirk


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff and Dirk:

I've added a few more engines to the table; Dirk's SD70 Mac, USAt's GG1, and an LGB Stainz.

I'm a little surprised by the pull of the GG1 and the Stainz. I thought they would have a higher value. Maybe temperature of the rails and wheels has an effect. 
It was about 25 degrees this afternoon.

I finally figured out how to convert an Excel file into a JPG.

Chuck


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Nice Chuck. 
What's "tt"?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

My short hand for traction tire. Chuck Ps, if anyone has any data for other engines, I'll add it to the table.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Couple of suggestions, 
- Another column set for "snow traction"? 
- Maybe a column showing pulling lbs / no. of driven axles, to show relative pull per axle? 
- A dedicated thread, giving the discussion distinctive position for others to weigh in? 
CJ


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ya, another thread would be fun for me! 

Much easier to find ...Instead of where did they talk about that stuff?? 

Chuck..on your Mallet ..2-8-8-2 ..does the 14 pounds represent the loco only weight? Or include the tender...? 

I'll add my Big SD90Mac when I learn more.. 

Thanks guys.. 
....Dirk


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I've derailed Cliff's thread enough. I'll keep updating the table as new information comes along, if any one has data on pulling power PM me and I'll start a thread when enough new data is available. 


Cliff:

I think the snow removal would require an entirely different table. Until I get some snow and try to measure the pull/push, I don't have a clue what to include. I'll have to think about the added column on pull by axle. My first thought is that, as you add axles, it would just be a smaller number, that shows the fewer axles the more pulling power per axle. By that reasoning "Emily" should have the greatest pulling power per axle/wheel. We'll have to see.

Dirk: 

The weight is without tender.

Chuck

Any suggestions as to which forum might be more suitable? Public Forum, Rolling Stock, or ???

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread!!


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

I haven't actually measured the tractive effort of my GP9 (no traction tires, replacement NWSL wheels) but I stalled out on a 4% grade on aluminum track pulling 30 cars up a 150' long grade. Unless you set a standard measurement for tractive effort (including type of rail, weather,etc) you'll get different amounts of data from different people. 

As for plowing in the snow, Cliff if you let the locomotive accumulate to the cold it might help. If snow is in the forecast I would leave my locomotive in the unheated garage the night before. That way the temperature of the wheels would be similar to the temperature of the rail. As I plowed snow, ice would form as the wheels warmed up. Granted when it snowed in the Seattle area it was always right around freezing so this might not make a difference if the temperature was 20F or colder... 
Craig


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By chuck n on 08 Jan 2014 06:09 PM 
I've derailed Cliff's thread enough....

No sweat Chuck, I wasn't going to use it much until the spring, ha ha!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff:


The snows gone and its warmed up. Get out there and run!!

Craig:

Letting the engine and cars cool to the ambient temperature is RULE #1 for winter operations, when there is snow. I had to learn the hard way a long time ago when I took a train out to run and the wheels all iced up.

You can't do anything about pressure melting of snow and refreezing on the rails, but letting the engines and cars cool is an easy solution.

Chuck


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Chuck, temp acclimation never occurred to me until Craig and yourself brought it up. Thanks.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

My locos all are in an unheated garage. While I agree with the acclimiation, they were cold, so just skidded over the ice 

J


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Hi Cliffy,
No need to go battery for snow plowing, DCC works just fine.
It's all about the weight of your consist + snow plow vs the type and amount of snow your plowing.
I made the following video plowing over 6 inches of heavy wet snow.
I first tried using just 1 of my SD-45s and it wouldn't move the packed snow but a few feet before stalling,
then I added a second and plowed the entire layout with no trouble.
(each SD-45 weighs in at about 14.5 lbs)
Ron


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

WOW!!!!
That is impressive.
Great video Ron.









Tommy








Rio Gracie


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Great video. That's what winter running is all about.

Now if only we would get some of the white stuff to plow. Freezing rain doesn't cut it.


Chuck


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ron, that's awesome, thanks for that! Couldn't see your latest phase, with the snow, but I'm guessing you shot that during this latest storm? 
So you had about 30 lbs of loco, good to know. 

When you first posted that, I was thinking, "b-b-b-but, what about your DCC switches? and your points and frogs icing up?" Now, seeing it again, I notice all your patches where your boxes were. Last week, I saw ice on the points, frogs and switch machines, and knew I couldn't throw the switches. Not only that, my return loops are wired for auto-throwing of the points, so I would not have been able to run thru the loops. 

So you were able to not only run through your switches, but operate them normally. Is that so? 

Cliff


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 11 Jan 2014 02:44 PM 
Ron, that's awesome, thanks for that! Couldn't see your latest phase, with the snow, but I'm guessing you shot that during this latest storm? 
So you had about 30 lbs of loco, good to know. 

When you first posted that, I was thinking, "b-b-b-but, what about your DCC switches? and your points and frogs icing up?" Now, seeing it again, I notice all your patches where your boxes were. Last week, I saw ice on the points, frogs and switch machines, and knew I couldn't throw the switches. Not only that, my return loops are wired for auto-throwing of the points, so I would not have been able to run thru the loops. 

So you were able to not only run through your switches, but operate them normally. Is that so? 

Cliff 



The video was from a few years ago, before phase three was built. I do keep my switches covered to keep them free of debris and cut down on maintenance.
I don't electrify my frogs anymore because I don't have any small two axle engines so there is no point, and its one less thing to worry about. 
Before I removed the power from the frogs I tested it with my smallest engines FA1's at the slowest speed and there was no interruption or stuttering going through the switch.

The switches worked fine the first time trough until the snow from the plow got packed in between the rails.
The trick was to plow the layout in one continuous path starting on the outer and making your way all the way around and then ending up on the inner loop.
Keep in mind that this was heavy wet snow and easily packed, I don't think this would have been a problem with "fluffy" snow.

Ron


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

TOTALLY FUN!!!!!! very well done.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the details Ron. All makes sense. 
I'm guessing that it's normal practice to not go crazy with switching operations while snow's around.


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Very nice video. Amazing how clear the track is after the plow goes through.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

The last couple of weeks has seen the start of landscaping on my layout, beginning with my wife (Linda) and I picking out some dwarf tree-ish plants of several kinds, then me preparing the planter areas and she sculpting and planting the trees. Here's a before shot.










As you can see from the exposed roadbed, the soil surface needed to be raised quite a bit. And that required raising the perimeter rockwork here and there. Lotsa fun though, playing with dirt and rock.



















I made a ~3" gravel strip on either side of the roadbed, to make weeding there a little easier. The gravel is cupped with landscape fabric, to reduce the intermixing of soil and gravel some. 

Long way to go, but that's fine, we're really enjoying this part.

===>Cliffy


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Looking really good Cliff, keep the pictures coming
Dennis


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## Joe Mascitti (Oct 30, 2008)

Nice Work... Looks Fantastic!


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

WOW Cliffy your mountain turned out Fantastic. 

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey, thanks guys!!

Dennis, will do, I'll post more pics as we make our way across the layout. 

I'm glad that the greenery is adding a nice dramatic splash of color to the layout. On the other hand, I'm pleased that the arid look and feel (I'm modeling a Nevada environment) is still present. We'll see how long that lasts in the Maryland rainforest, haha!


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Those really help. Looking like a top-notch layout


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

A belated thanks, Jim!

Since my last post, and between work-related trips, I've been working on the water supply for the layout. Long story, but after years of making do with a single hose bibb out back, I installed 3 more, with hoses and hooks and spray nozzles. That required a new feed from the basement, with back-flow prevention, etc., etc. So that was June for me. And all I can say is that I wish I'd done this years before! I mean, it's so nice to be able to spool out a nozzle to where I'm working, and hose off my hands or boots or face, or fill a bucket or rinse a rag, without having to take a hike. 

The other big part of this water supply project was setting up for the sprinkler system. Here's the manifold, which is serving 2 zones now, and (hopefully) an additional 2 zones in the future.










The controller is the Orbit "Easy Set Logic Timer," and has lots of programmable parameters on when to fire off a zone, for how long, etc. The main valves are Rainbird's, with anti-siphon, flow regulation and manual on-off. Both seemed a very good value to me, after some research. 

This weekend, I've been working on the sprinkler system. I'd laid some of the feeder lines while we were planting trees and doing final soil & rock surfaces (for one end of the layout), but now it was time to tie everything in to the supply. Here's the main trunk line for the first zone.










The bigger challenge was to run feeders to more remote places, which required some disruption to the in-place rockwork.










No, I didn't need to run feeders in all those locations, because the sprinklers could have shot over the tracks, yada yada. But, I wanted the flexibility in sprinkler placement. And it was fun.

This sprinkler system is "Mister Landscaper." I chose it because I can get bits locally, at my Lowes, and allows a lot of flexibility. You can choose nozzle pattern (90. 180, 360), and adjust the flow rate per nozzle. You stab the fitting in wherever you want, along the feeder line. 










You also have the further variables of nozzle placement and angle. So you can position the spray patterns where needed.










So, after a lot of build-up, I had a lot of fun playing in the dirt and mud today! 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey all,

Here's a bit of an update on my layout. 

This year it's mainly been infrastructure and landscaping. After my wife and I planted the south area (the layout is skinny, running N-S) in the spring, I focused on the sprinkler system, water supply to 4 new bibbs, and GFCI-protected 120vac power outlets in various locations.

Then came the oh-Lord-why-did-I-ever-think-I-could-do-this project, which attempted to fix my stoop-under and always muddy under-deck "backstage" area. 










After removing approx 7 cubic yards of soil, correcting drain lines, laying paper & gravel, and gobs of advil, I can now (at least theoretically) walk upright beneath the deck, without scalping myself and getting muddy shoes. That's important, because this under-deck area will eventually be hidden behind a backdrop, and serve as the main controls and train storage area. 










Next was landscaping the central part of the layout. Because I'm so slow, my concrete roadbed has seen a subsiding of the gravel against it, and has been in dire need to be bolstered completely by new gravel and final soil outboard of that. You can see how badly exposed the roadbed had become.










Here is the "after shot," showing small gravel against the roadbed, and topsoil beyond that. Heavy landscape fabric "cups" the gravel against the 'crete, separating it from the soil. 










The landscaping has required a lot of adjustments to the peripheral walls to bring the gravel/soil nearer the roadbed surface. This area needed serious help. Fortunately, all those (lighter-colored) rocks were available, after being dug up during the under-deck excavation process.




























Today and yesterday have been prepping the north end of the layout. Weeding (it was covered with weeds) and mainly getting rid of four big compacted piles of rock and dirt. These were waste piles from the concrete-forming days. I don't have a pic of how it looked before, but it was pretty bad. Here is how it looks now.










Next weekend, my plan is to take a couple vacation days off and try to complete the landscaping on this end. 

My wife Linda has really gotten into the gardening part, and we're having fun planning what to do with what areas.

Cliff


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Looking good. How long till you can run trains, or can you now? If my layout was that far along i'd have to be able to run trains of i'd go crazy!


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff looking great, i bet you are really glad your roadbed is all concrete, the one thing of your layout that did not change, no upkeep for that part. great method.
Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ha ha Skeeter! Yes, I can run trains, or at least I did quite a bit last year. But this year, with so much dirt and gravel flying around I've not kept up with the track cleaning. After next weekend though, I hope to be back in running condition. 

Thanks Dennis! Yes I am happy with it. Even though I've been pretty tardy with backing up the ribbon, it has stayed solid, no cracks. But I'm relieved to get it buried finally.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

This weekend for me has been my epic and "final" earth-moving effort, and general completion of landscaping on the north end of my layout. I took Thursday & Friday off of work for this, and am glad I did. So here's the blow by blow.

Thursday was rock-paper-scissors day, meaning that I needed to lay a lot of landscape fabric, and add, build up, or modify a lot of rock wall sections. Also finalize grading / drainage and drip sprinkler lines.




























Friday was gravel day. Lots of gravel. This is the small stuff, ~1/4"-3/8", and is so much easier to shovel than the larger (~1") stuff I'd been using prior. The large expanses are for future mine complexes, and wherever we don't want to plant things. Also, the roadbed needed gravel on either side.




























Today was filling in the planter areas, trimming up the fabric, and generally tidying up. 



















That last pic shows my (borrowed) John Deere, sitting on a path that's always been too narrow. There's a steep drop off, sort of indicated by the tractor listing to the left in pic #6. I had a nice adrenaline rush this morning when the thing started sliding sideways down the hill... Don't want my name in an obit too soon, so tomorrow will be finishing off a widenening and ramping project for that path, to keep things workable and safe with the tractor.










Well, that's about it. 
Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Today I put in a new planter, based on a great idea from my wife Linda. I have this concrete mountain on the south end, and it's chopped off to get a fun interior view of its "cavern." But, from a distance (such as when anyone drives up our driveway), the chopped-off mountain looks kinda stupid.

So, Linda had the idea of masking it with a small "forest" of dwarf alberta's. So that's what we planted today, after prepping the new bed. Lowe's has these baby (~16" tall) tees for $7, I think that's a great deal. They should get to 3-4'.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

looks great Cliff, hug your wife, that was a great idea.
Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dennis, and will do!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Wow, just noticed your foamer's siggy!
It's ok, my engineer bud called me that as he handed me 2' of rail....
John


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Man, this is shaping up to be an epic scale project. Cool stuff.


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Hey Cliff the layout is looking awesome.
How many separate loops will it have, meaning how many trains can run unattended at the same time? 

Ron


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Sacred Bovine!!!!! You layout is turning out great. 

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey, thanks guys, that really means a lot!!

Ron, only one train can be (safely) left to run unattended, in this phase at least.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

We got the other half of our trees yesterday from a local nursery, and here's the haul. 



















The ones in the middle of the first shot are our favorite, called "Reis Dwarf Hinoki False Cypress." Linda trimmed the first ones, and they look like miniature live oaks I think, even though they're evergreens. 










The large orange-ish ones in the 2nd pic are "Rheingold Arborvitea," and are my second favorite. They have 2 or 3 trunks, and Linda separated some in the first batch, like these ones.










So, for the next couple weekends at least, looks like we're gonna be plantin' trees. 

Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Totalwrecker said:


> Wow, just noticed your foamer's siggy!
> It's ok, my engineer bud called me that as he handed me 2' of rail....
> John


Haha John, I finally got what you meant! Yeah, I'm often in a corner, blowin' bubbles.... and that's before I come home from work...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I really like the details in your vision.... 
That neatness wouldn't last a week here, but it's fun to look at. 
John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks John.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Looks good Cliffy. You need a mini campground for Jerry to stay when he comes over. 

Chris


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Chris. I've got a nice spot for his A-Liner in back, but the problem would be getting it back up the hill, haha!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Today was final tree planting for us. Linda 'sculpted' the trees over the last two weeks, and here's about half of them.










A shot of the north end of the layout.










And the very north-west corner.










As you can see, my wife is pretty happy with how it's turning out. 

Cliff


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Hey Cliffy, those trees give it a much needed "homey" look.. big change there for you!
Getting extra help is great also. Happy for ya buddy!

Shaping up nicely. What's next on your list of projects?

SD


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Dirk, thanks!

My next project was completing the mini sprinkler system, but that's done now. Next up I think is ongoing planting of ground cover, and debugging track issues. Then come small indoor projects over the winter.

But for "big" projects, I suppose that will be making the storage yard under the deck. That's next year, or the year after, not sure.

Thanks fer askin',
CJ


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Looking good!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Skeeter


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff tell Linda she did a great job on the trees. You folks have a great looking layout to be proud of.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Cliff
The new trees look great. Linda has certainly mastered that technique. She could be an east coast Nancy.
ALiner is pulled by 4WD truck, we could make it! But don't need to as we have our own campground 










Jerry


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Pete, I'll pass that along to Linda!

And Jerry, ditto that, she'll be very pleased. Sure love your campground, wonderful detail.


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## Joe Mascitti (Oct 30, 2008)

Great job Cliff... Love how your layout has progressed... All the planning really did pay off...

Joe


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks a lot Joe. 
Planning, and lots of help from my MLS buddies!


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