# A New Canadian Track Takes Shape



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Everyone,
Just thought that I would post some photos of Dan Pantages' new garden railway as it takes shape.
Over the last two weeks, ably assisted by some guests, Pete Olsen and Carol Paule, who were put to work, very willingly I believe, and some local club members,  Dan is transforming his back yard into something more useful!
Anyway, here are some photos that I took today, 
He is hoping to have track down during July.
I am sure that he will give anyone details as to the construction methods used, if they are not clear from the pictures.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Your going to have a nice track there! looks like 300 to 400 ft or more?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David
Good to see that the layout has broken ground and progress quite nicely. Maybe be Dan will present the "grand plan" overview of the layout so all of us can keep "track" via the photos of the progress as the sections are coming to completion. Anyways grand to have good friends, support and fellow hobbyists who help make it possible for the project to become reality.


Thanks again for the post.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

David came over today and helped me complete the stringers. The track will be a double mainline of 265 feet with a minimum radius on two corners of 12 feet with the rest having 16 to 24 foot radius curves. I used the Clark Lord method of building, ABS pipe in concrete and steel studs for stringers. Without the help of friends, Pete Olson, Carol Paule and David Leech I would not be this far along. I need to build three lift out sections and then the decking. I have enough track to do one loop then the second track will come later.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

These are very nice photos and am sure that there is excitement in the air. 

Best wishes and is this a live steam loop to start? ... looks like it? 

No frost heave to worry about so did not have to dig too deep? 


gg


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Frost heave? What frost heave?

Dan lives in Delta, named after, uh, the delta...









Frost heave happens to other folks, not to the inhabitants of the Greater Vancouver flat-lands. 

The last time they had frost heave there, the place was inhabited by the woolly mammoth.

Good luck in your ventures, Dan and the guys and gals!!

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually I live south of Delta on the peninsula between White Rock and Crescent Beach, the area is called Elgin. I’m about 5 miles from the Canadian, US border, Peace Arch Park, Pacific crossing. All of this is about 25 miles south of Vancouver British Columbia. You are correct in saying there are no frost heave problems here. 

I have the posts 18 to 20 inches deep with cement inside and around them to within about 4 inches of the ground level so the grass will grow. I cross drilled them with 1 inch holes so the inside and outside cement would bond together. I used 3 inch ABS pipe.


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## bobsteamer (Jan 14, 2008)

I like the construction method you are using. I am getting ready to also build a track. I would like to have more information. If Clark reads this I would appreciate hearing from him and getting some advice. thanks, Bob


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Do you all fit into the green hot tub at the end of the day?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jim Overland on 06/15/2009 9:34 AM
Do you all fit into the green hot tub at the end of the day?

Jim
I thought it was for the "refreshments" needed from all the hard work, thus the empty tub.....


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

The pool is for my cat. She likes to get in it when the temperature gets over 85. She's a Maine **** cat, they love water. Yes, there were some "refreshments" used to keep the crew interested, mostly Margaritas at the end of the day.


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## Captain Dan (Feb 7, 2008)

For the person asking about this type of construction, I also use a form of this construction for my track. I live in the Dallas Texas area. We don't have a frost heave problem, but we do have a very pronounced wet/dry movement of the ground that is every bit as bad as frost heave. (I grew up in Michigan) I used what are called "deck blocks" instead of cementing posts into the ground with 4x4 pressure treated post up to a 2"x4" cross bar. I put the cross bar vertical instead of flat like Dan did. (either will work, obviously, unless you have a very wide track bed) The vertical setting of the cross bar requires that the cross bar be put below the steel studs or it must be trimmed on the edges to fit within the "2x4" steel stud. You pays your money and take your choice. If you have some way to level out the height of the posts now and later, the cross bar layed out flat seems a great way to go. With wood posts, I needed to put the cross bar vertical to be able to level the track bed--now and later. I used 3 or 4 inch deck screws to hold the cross bar to the 4 x 4 post. (BTW, make sure that you think thru where to put screws that may be needed to adjust the track later. I put some screws in from the top and when adjustments needed to be made, there was a lot of knashing of teeth and bad words- out came the hack saw for some screws!!!! :-((( )

I put my track up about 4 years ago, and I have only done some very minor level adjusting. Also, when I bought the steel studding, I asked for 18 gauge metal. It seems thin, but this is way stronger than will every be necessary. The place that I bought it from threw in some 16 gauge studs also -- way over kill. For the curves, I took a different tack. I have 8 foot radius curves. I cut the steel stud web every 6 inches with an abrasive saw. This allowed the steel stud to just make a pretty good 8 foot radius. A larger radius can be made with cuts every 9-12" or just like Dan did.

For the track bed, I used the half wood/half plastic deck boards. ( I forgot the name) They look almost as good as they did 4 years ago.

A couple of notes. Whenever you cut the galvinized steel studs, they WILL rust in about 5 minutes. Paint them soon with a paint made for galvinized steel.
Also, if you cut the steel studs every 6 inches like I did, then, if you want the decking to fit good, you must taper each deck board to fit next to the other deck boards. There is a lot to be said for the way that Dan is making his track. 
Dan


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## Dave Sykes (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey Dan, 
How about you bring some pics of that Maine **** cat to Sacramento? 
Some in the pool if possible.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

“Whenever you cut the galvanized steel studs, they WILL rust in about 5 minutes.” 

This I have not seen yet. But I will paint the joints along with the complete stud so they don't show up as much in the yard. The black posts almost disappear into the background. I used cedar 2x4’s for the joiners; I just grooved them on the table saw and slid them together. I then put screws from the steel stud side into the wood. My cross bars are only 12 inches so on their side is fine. Clark Lord told me to cut the studs every foot to make the corners. I did that and ended up with a piece of limp spaghetti. That’s when we came up with the idea of treating them just like wood studs. I am putting in wood cross bars about every 3 feet; this is to stop the studs from twisting. They are very stiff until they twist. I know the top deck will stop them from twisting but a little over kill makes me feel better. My posts are 6 feet apart on the straights and 4 feet apart on the curves. 

I believe no matter how much you think the system through you will find a problem later. I have been “thinking” for 15 years. I could have enjoyed my own track and built another by now.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

David, Captain Dan and Dan,

THX for this thread! I am just getting started on my elevated track and this is great timing. Keep the pictures comin.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like a good way to build a RR in your area. Very interesting. Looks nice. later RJD


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

How is the wood cross piece attached to the 4 inch plastic pipe vertical post? Is ther any adjustment in the attachment? 
jonathan


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

The cross pieces are screwed from the inside onto the ABS caps. One of the things that needs to be done is the caps need to be turned on a lathe to make them flat. They have a slight dome to them. At the same time we drilled a hole in the center while they were still on the lathe. I have seen other people use “toilet” flanges which they screwed up from the bottom into the cross bars. I was just not able to get that many flanges in time for the crew that came to help. The caps can be adjusted on the pipes if necessary and then pinned. At this point we are level to within half a laser dot on all posts, about 1/16 inch. I don’t expect any movement, the pipes are 18 inches or more into the ground with cement inside and out to about 3 inches from the surface so grass will grow up to them. I cross drilled them about 2 inches and 5 inches from the bottom with 1 inch holes so the inside and outside cement would become one. The ground is undisturbed heavy clay so they are solid. 

Two sites to look at are; http://www.p-c-l-s.com/steamups/021019-Lord2/ and http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/misc/hfreed-track.htm


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Option for post cap save lathe time:

PVC drain cap :


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## Kurt Sykes (Feb 28, 2008)

Here is a shot of mine and my Dads track in my backyard.
3 years old,NO rust.


















Kurt


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Kurt,
Three years old eh!
and you still haven't put the decking on!!! (Just kidding)
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Kurt Sykes (Feb 28, 2008)

Hi David, 
Building it this way,makes it self cleaning. 

Kurt


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## donupton (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Dan and David L.,
You Guys in "Lotus Land" have got it made. Except, who is going to mow the lawn and what is the foot bath for?  Please keep us posted as we all have moisture problems. More photos by Leech!


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Don,
Good to hear from you.
You want more photos!
How about these 'before' photos of my track.








A slight alignment problem!








Yes, after about 12 years, dampness did set in and cause the plywood to very slightly delaminate.
Not that you would notice!
I have all the materials to rebuild, just no time right now.
But after Sacramento I am taking a week off to build the railway.
All the best,
David leech, Delta, Canada


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

And the build continues. I have been working on the layout but at a much slower pace than June when my friends came from the East and worked non-stop for 2 weeks. Since then I have done a little traveling, built the lift-outs for the track and done the regular stuff needed to be done around the house to keep the “Minister of Lands and Forests” happy. So for the next week I’ll be at it. My plan of at least one loop by August did not happen and now we are leaving for a month trip, the 3rd of September. I do have the rest of the track needed. 

I have found a source for some material I have been looking for, both Polyboard and Dibond. Today I will use the Polyboard to make some Gussets for each of the cross bars on the posts. I found that if I sat/stood on the side of the track stringers there would be some flex, I could see this being a problem down the road. I had been planning on plywood with rolled roofing for the deck but then several people suggested Dibond. When I first looked into the Dibond the only price I came up with was way over the top $150 to $170 per sheet plus shipping from the US. My friend in Utah, Jim Hadden, has used the Polyboard for his decking. It worked well but does have a very large coefficient of expansion and is not structural, needing lots of support. Well yesterday when I finally found and picked up the Polyboard I asked if they had any suggestions. They suggested Dibond, I asked the price and it’s the same price as the Polyboard, $85 a sheet. This is the first time I’ve seen this stuff and they gave me a 2 x 4 sample to play with. I know some of you have used this as decking so here are the questions. How do you fasten the track to the Dibond and is there any problem with expansion / contraction? Also it comes in white, I know it can be painted but will it stay painted? What is the best way to cut it? What else do I need to know about it? 

As soon as I figure out how to post pictures I will.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan

Looking for photos that reference the two tracks with application and gaps.

Here is a photo of Ron Brown's layout 










I have seen two layouts with dibond sure. Ron Brown''s outdoor layout and Mike Moore's portable. Great material, paint does adhere well. Track can be attached with screws of nails. MIke's portable has the dibond glued via Gorilla glue to the frame (metal to metal). If I recall correctly the dibond was cut with saw and the a router used to smooth the edge. I do not believe there is much concern with expansion otherwise one might have second thoughts about glue to hold it to the frame. Of course allowing a bit of gap between sections would be a good idea.

Here is one of Mike Moore's layout, the are not "L" claps holding the dibond on Mike's track










Larger layout-












In this straight section photo below you can see the nail head holding the track


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Is this green the color on Mike Moore's layout a Dibond color. So far all I've seen is white.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan
The color was painted onto the Dibond


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

DiBond is a product by and registered trademark of Alcan Composites. 

Alcan Comp. Homepage: http://www.alcancompositesusa.com/home.html 
Dibond home page: http://www.alcancompositesusa.com/product_detail.html?uid=gd40c8daac51170 

If you can imagine the color, Dibond comes in it. Of course standard colors are cheaper and you don't have to order as much. Green is a standard color. 

Given how long Dibond has been around, 15+ years(?) and how simple it is, there are lots of other manufacturers of aluminum composite material (ACM). Google "aluminum composite material", maybe limit to Canada or northwest US.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dan 

An important thing to note about Mike Moore's metal-to-metal bonding using Gorilla Glue... Mike's frames are extruded aluminum rectangular tube and the skin on the DiBond is aluminum, so the coefficient of expansion for the frame and the deck is the same. I have used Dibond with Al tube for one of my long bridges on my layout. 

IF I were starting over, I would consider this seriously from a cost perspective. I used Trex 5/4 composite decking cut to provide a deck 32 to 38 inches wide. The cost for 32 sq ft [4x8] was about $110 in 2000 [a long time ago]. That is a lot more than the $85 per sheet that Mike Moore paid about one week ago. He bought white/random back sheets, which is the least expensive. And if you are going to paint it, who cares. The coat of paint really does help protect the thin aluminum skin. 

Regards


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Through several forums building a layout has been a recent topic. I have to admit I find the fascination with gluing all or parts of a layout (i.e., deck-to-frame and/or track-to-deck) a bit odd. Since a railroad is forever subject to chang why would anyone make it permanent? Glue seems to me to be only a disadvantage with no advantage, save a mess to work with. Screws or nails are so cheap; air/battery nail or screw guns at reasonable cost making installation uncomplicated. IMHO


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim, a question, you say that the paint helps protect the thin aluminum skin. The sheets I have seen are already painted. My worry about painting it is will it need repainting down the road. I understand it comes in green so that would be OK. I looked at Trex but here in Canada for some reason it is way over priced. In the spring I priced it out and found that to do my railway it would be close to $4000, not that I have found Dibond even at the “full bore, bad guy” list price it will be about $850 to $1000. I have a couple of contractor friends that I am sure can get it for a better price. 

Chris I agree with you on the glue verses the nail/screw method of attachment for most applications. I think what Jim is talking about is a portable layout and it would make the sections more rigid with no flex and the fasteners would not come loose with moving it all the time. I will screw whatever decking I plan on down to the metal studs I used for the stringers. 

Everyone talks about Gorilla Glue. I have used it but I have found that it never works for me, it holds about as well as flower and water. Maybe it’s different in the US than in Canada.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pantages on 29 Aug 2009 09:59 AM 
Jim, a question, you say that the paint helps protect the thin aluminum skin. The sheets I have seen are already painted. My worry about painting it is will it need repainting down the road. I understand it comes in green so that would be OK. I looked at Trex but here in Canada for some reason it is way over priced. In the spring I priced it out and found that to do my railway it would be close to $4000, now that I have found Dibond even at the “full bore, bad guy” list price it will be about $850 to $1000. I have a couple of contractor friends that I am sure can get it for a better price. 

Chris I agree with you on the glue verses the nail/screw method of attachment for most applications. I think what Jim is talking about is a portable layout and it would make the sections more rigid with no flex and the fasteners would not come loose with moving it all the time. I will screw whatever decking I plan on down to the metal studs I used for the stringers. 

Everyone talks about Gorilla Glue. I have used it but I have found that it never works for me, it holds about as well as flower and water. Maybe it’s different in the US than in Canada.


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## Kurt Sykes (Feb 28, 2008)

Hello Dan, 
If you have time, 
Feel free to stop by on your way to Stavers 
and check out my track. 
You may save money on yours. 

Kurt


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dan 

1] The paint provided a uniform color that matched the frames. 
2] The AL skin is very thin and the factory paint is even thinner. It scrapes of with people dragging stuff around on the surface. Mike took his track To Bethlehem PA one Christmas to help support a Toys-for-Tots [I think] charity event. They wanted to run electric stuff when the steamers were not around so we put temporary power to the track. The layout uses SVRR track and the spikes on the bottom of the ties are exposed. OOver time, the spikes had scraped the paint off and the AL deck provided an electrical path between the opposite rails. We ended up putting thin sheets of cardboard under all the switches on that one loop of track. 
3] Glue vs mechanical fasteners. My experience is that unless you can countersink the fasteners along the edge to be flush with the decking surface, it is only a matter of minutes until the first person sustains a personal injury or tears their clothing through innattention. This is the same reason to use a router on the edge to get a smooth flush edge. People are too focused onrunning trains to notice rough edges and "pointy" things. 
4] On Ron Brown's layout [see pic] the home made clips were used because there was an expectation of lots of movement in the weather extremes on that part of New York. Also, any of the industrial adhesives of the day that might have worked were VERY expensive. It turns out that a little GG goes a long way in this application.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike also painted his trackroad with paint - if I remember - was an alkalyod enamel. You couldn't even buy it in the NE, which is why I know about it. Hopefully he will chime in.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

John, by painting his trackroad do you mean he painted the roadbed a different colour than the deck?


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Installation: 
I wondered what DiBond providers had to say about installation so I asked Google. 
Here's a quick reference guide http://www.selector.com/company/Alucobond_Architectural/Dibond(r)_Composite_Panels/Install,_Maintain 
They mentioned rivets (pop or blind) and "standard metal adhesives or commercial double-sided adhesive tape". Rivets sound fast. 

DiBond sounds great for installation, wear and all. I just don't find the smooth sheet metal appearance all that imaginative. But there are remedies that come to mind... 
DiBond comes in different finishes one is called, DiBond Stucco. Or, if you're going to paint it why not use one of those paint like surface coatings (and not tar), you add a texture material like sand(?), dries to a hard finish. 

Dan: 
Supplier of Dibond closer to you, north of Seattle; 
HowMac, Inc 
Phone: 1-800-735-7251 
720 Puget Avenue, Suite A 
Sedro Woolley, WA 98284 USA


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Chris, the place I found it is on my side of the boarder and about 5 K from me. Sedro Wooley is about 15 miles but that's close also, I'll check their price. There is a rubber deck coat that has fine chopped bits of rubber in it and comes in a number of colours.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan
I am sure you have thought of this but whatever covers the dibond needs to be resist to fire... 

[script removed]


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Like the plastic ties used on the track?


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan - I believe the plan is to paint the entire structure. First, because it looks better. Secondly because the paint creates a finish that is more resistant to oil, alcohol and assorted nasty things we tend to use (in defiance of the state of California's warning) in running the locomotives.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I’m back at it. I was away for the month of September so little progress since last time I was on this thread. The rains have started so that will slow me down also. I have painted the structure and put up and painted the gussets put on the posts. I am now ordering the Dibond but I have a question. What kind of paint has anyone used that stays on this stuff? The information I have says it needs to be sanded with 360 paper and cleaned with methylated spirits. OK, I did that and tried Tremclad but it just scrapes off very easily. Because all I seem to be able to get here is the white I need to paint it, I’m going for a flat brown or gray color.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan
Mike Moore is a MLS member, he knows. I believe he had to order the paint outside the local suppliers in order to get the proper paint. 


He is listed on MLS as: mrmoore and here is a post he did that allows for email-cabin fever 2009


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Mr. Moore used a paint designed for metal roofs. He could not buy it in Yankee land, so I brought it to him from NC. It is a an alkalyod enamel based paint.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

You can get plastic edging that snaps over the edge of the Dibond.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Gerry but I think that would just make the rain water puddle more on the decking. With the layout being so level, surface tension of the rain water causes it to sit on top now. Across the yard of about 120 feet its level to within half a laser dot still, after close to 2 years. The laser dot is about an 1/8 inch in diameter.


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## deltatrains (Nov 25, 2010)

Here is a short video of the track partially finished and a train running on it. It is well built and the trains run without any problems. Good job by all invloved. 
Click the link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=deltatrains#p/u/12/rBrt5AcKnms 
[email protected]


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Great-looking track - here there is deep envy and much dribble.... 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Any current photos of the layout from page one of this thread? Or did I just not find them?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Marty, 
There's a video on another thread that I started: 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/119963/afv/topic/Default.aspx 
I think there were some photos too somewhere! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

David 

Yes I saw that video couple of times, was not putting 2 and 2 together. I like the idea of steel studs. Thats what I used, but my TEE post still is not holding mine as "perfect" as I would like. Yet I can walk under mine in one place. The higher the weaker it seems to be, 
thanks for the info.


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## deltatrains (Nov 25, 2010)

*Some of these videos of Dan's track are a few months old but display a great variety of little steamers which have shown up over that time on his track.* 


*http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=deltatrains*

*Enjoy, and thanks for viewing.
*

Peter.


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