# Shovels/scoops



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

In watching several videos of solid fuel Live Steam operation, I see a couple of difficulties that seem to be experienced by every "fireman" in the Garden Scales.

The first problem is containing the fuel on the shovel without it spilling all over as the fireman attempts to get it from the source pile "to", and then "into", the fire-box.

The other probem is, once the shovel is in the fire-box, the problem is getting the fuel off the shovel and distributed around the grate without damaging the locomotive, derailing it or even knocking it over! The shovel is introduced through the fire-doorway and shaken side to side or an attempt is made to flip it forward to knock the solid fuel off the shovel and in the process it is very easy for the non-scale fireman to damage something.

In full sized practice the strength of the fireman is not enough to do much more than possibly dent the shovel when it hits the sides or bottom of the fire-door opening, but in the garden gauge sizes, even though the shovel is scaled down to fit, the fireman is still way over scale and quite capable of damaging the shovel or the locomotive just by accidentally moving the shovel too fast or too far in any direction.

Some people have made shovels that reduce the problem of fuel spillage as it is carried and inserted into the fire-box doorway. Instead of a miniature of a real coal shovel that is just a flat plate with short walls on three sides or a shallow "V" or rounded shape, this design is usually a tube shape with a partial slot in the top to facilitate loading the shovel; the inward curved sides at the top helping to hold the fuel in place. But getting the fuel off of this type of shovel is then even more complicated than the flat plate shovel. Trying to rotate the device to pour the fuel off the sides is often difficult or impossible to accomplish and just shaking it requires much more violent shaking to get the fuel to go up and over the curved sides. It seems that what usually happens is the fuel is withdrawn with the shovel and it falls on the floor of the cab at the base of the fire-door opening.

After considerable thought about this I have come up with a design that I'd like someone to try, as I don't have a solid fuel locomotive to try it myself. My design is of the tubular shape, as above, but contains a piston that will hold the fuel in the firebox while the shell of the scoop is pulled out from under it. See the drawing below:

The dimensions should fit the locomotive it is to be used with. 

The shape and size of the scoop should be such that it just fits into the fire-door opening. It can be either circular or squarish to contain as much fuel as possible, yet slide freely into the opening. The length of the scoop should be just short of the depth of the fire-box. The handles need to be short enough to fit in the area between the backhead of the boiler and what ever is directly behind it (usually the tender). That space also needs to be long enough to fit the handle(s) of the shovel and the fireman's hand (handles plus a thumb thickness?).

The idea is to fill the scoop with the piston fully withdrawn in the scoop. Then put it in the firebox and press the thumb of one hand on the large button on the end of the long thin handle to hold the piston "ears" (sticking out slots in the side of the scoop) against the backhead. Then pull the thicker handle (using the index finger on the small tab sticking up) back against the spring to withdraw the scoop from the firebox. The piston will block the fuel from coming with the scoop and it will fall off the end as the scoop is withdrawn. Thus distributing the fuel along the center line of the grate. When the whole shovel is withdrawn from the firebox, a rake can be used as usual to distribute the fuel to the sides to form an even fire-bed.

The piston "ears" are in slots to help hold everything in alignment. The spring helps to keep the user from accidently pushing the piston forward while carrying the fuel to the firebox.










Possible problems I see are:

1. Small particles of the fuel could wedge between the piston and the scoop and cause binding.

2. Chunks of fuel could also get wedged in the slots and bind things up.

3. The available space may not be enough for the length of handles necessary for the scoop to be withdrawn. About an inch or two more that the depth of the firebox would be needed on the outside, between the backhead and the tender (or whatever is back there).

If someone would like to try it, and is willing to send me the pertinent dimensions of their engine, I will be willing to make ONE and send it to them to experiment with. I need to know:

A.-Depth of the firebox between the firedoor and the rear tube sheet.

B.-Width and Height of the firedoor opening and the general shape (round, oval, square with rounded corners, etc.).

C.-Thickness of the fire door opening.

D.-Assurance that the piston "ears" can fit beside the fire-door opening without damaging anything (I will keep them to about 1/4 inch long).

E.-Distance between the boiler backhead at the firedoor and whatever obstruction is behind it (such as the tender).

And note that the final product I send may or may not resemble the drawing! (I'm thinking there needs to be two of the little sticks on the thicker handle for the index and middle fingers!)

If someone just wants to take the design and run with it... be my guest, but write an article about it for Steam in the Garden magazine!!!! If no article shows up before I (and my cohort) get done then I will write one.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Semper V, 

Here is a picture of the shovel I use, made for me by the Master Bob Weltyk. Granted, you have to shake it to extricate the coal, but that has not been a problem. That being said, your plunger idea really looks interesting. I hope someone builds one.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Use the bulk of the compressed spring to act as a travel stop and get rid of the 'ears' and slots. Burning rock stuff will find those slots very quickly and bring your temperature way up before the fire gets hot! 

John


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

I have found that you doo not need to light the fuel source outside the fire box. Once you get your fuel source loaded and suction fan turned on, all you have to do is put your source of fire into fire box. Ives uses common match sticks. Others use butuane lighters that are easily placed inside the fire box to light fire.
Your idea might work fine but like you mentioned above, it will clog your device pretty quickly and the device will get hot when you are loading the fuel source.


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

I've seen people use tubes of various sorts 

jim


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I am not advocating setting fire to the fuel in the shovel. The firing process remains the same. This is just to put fuel into the firebox, both initially and for the continuous refueling that a solid fuel fire requires. 

Eliminating the ears introduces the possibility of the piston pushing the fuel off the end of the scoop at the far end of the firebox, making a big pile in front of the rear tube sheet (and shoving fuel into the flues). The idea is to hold the piston at the fire-door opening and remove the scoop from under the fuel, letting it drop on the grates in a long row. 

The scoop would not be in the firebox for very long. A much shorter time than the shovel presently is while being shaken around trying to knock the fuel off of it. So this shovel would not get as hot as the present one does.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Took your idea and went to Ebay and purchased a metal 3 oz syringe. Cheap. Will see how it works. Will trim to make it open and see what happens. If it works then will let you know.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 16 Jul 2012 10:28 AM 
Took your idea and went to Ebay and purchased a metal 3 oz syringe. Cheap. Will see how it works. Will trim to make it open and see what happens. If it works then will let you know. 

Neat idea!!! ... Eliminates a lot of fabrication work! (I assume you got the $8.40 one and not the $27.00 one!) 
Might only need to chop the end off to open it up. No need to open the top like a scoop. Stand it on end with the open end up and pour the fuel in to fill it. Depending on the width of the firebox, one syringe full might be enough to fill the grate with a proper layer of fuel.

But I still wonder about how to hold the piston stable at the fire-door opening and withdrawing the body from under the fuel. I suppose you might be able to just stick your thumb through the ring on the end and touch the footplate to hold it steady and then pull back on the rings on the body of the syringe.

If the syringe fits your firebox door, then fabrication is just cutting off the end to the appropriate length.

Is there some sort of rubberized seal (like piston rings?) around the piston to seal it to the shell? If so, then the heat of the fire might damage it. But if it is some sort of silicone, it might withstand the heat and be okay.


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## highpressure (Jan 2, 2008)

You just need a Bigger Hole to get the coal in. Watch carefully at the end when the firedoor is opened & you can see a few of the flues. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iibM3Ebeg60


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hey Semp, 
Move the piston stopper to the top and eliminate the slots. 
Convert ice cube/ sugar cube tongs to a clamshell bucket and drop your load where you want it.... 

Fun idea. 
John


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Larry,

When you live in St. Louis you don't need any coal. Just stick it out in the sun. The only place hotter is Death Valley - and I don't mean the Clemson football stadium!


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 16 Jul 2012 10:52 AM 
Posted By gibs035 on 16 Jul 2012 10:28 AM 
Took your idea and went to Ebay and purchased a metal 3 oz syringe. Cheap. Will see how it works. Will trim to make it open and see what happens. If it works then will let you know. 

Neat idea!!! ... Eliminates a lot of fabrication work! (I assume you got the $8.40 one and not the $27.00 one!) 
Might only need to chop the end off to open it up. No need to open the top like a scoop. Stand it on end with the open end up and pour the fuel in to fill it. Depending on the width of the firebox, one syringe full might be enough to fill the grate with a proper layer of fuel.

But I still wonder about how to hold the piston stable at the fire-door opening and withdrawing the body from under the fuel. I suppose you might be able to just stick your thumb through the ring on the end and touch the footplate to hold it steady and then pull back on the rings on the body of the syringe.

If the syringe fits your firebox door, then fabrication is just cutting off the end to the appropriate length.

Is there some sort of rubberized seal (like piston rings?) around the piston to seal it to the shell? If so, then the heat of the fire might damage it. But if it is some sort of silicone, it might withstand the heat and be okay.








I dont know about the seal. I paid 14 or 15 dollars no shipping. we will see. Looks like you pull plunger back, fill up tube then just press plunger. I plan on opening the cylinder up though enouhg to use as scoop and have the plunger to push fuel into firebox. Since it is small investment may have to modify some to accomplish what I want to do. As I said will see. Need to have something to keep me busyand my mind and hands occupied.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 16 Jul 2012 01:06 PM 
Posted By Semper Vaporo on 16 Jul 2012 10:52 AM 
Posted By gibs035 on 16 Jul 2012 10:28 AM 
Took your idea and went to Ebay and purchased a metal 3 oz syringe. Cheap. Will see how it works. Will trim to make it open and see what happens. If it works then will let you know. 

Neat idea!!! ... Eliminates a lot of fabrication work! (I assume you got the $8.40 one and not the $27.00 one!) 
Might only need to chop the end off to open it up. No need to open the top like a scoop. Stand it on end with the open end up and pour the fuel in to fill it. Depending on the width of the firebox, one syringe full might be enough to fill the grate with a proper layer of fuel.

But I still wonder about how to hold the piston stable at the fire-door opening and withdrawing the body from under the fuel. I suppose you might be able to just stick your thumb through the ring on the end and touch the footplate to hold it steady and then pull back on the rings on the body of the syringe.

If the syringe fits your firebox door, then fabrication is just cutting off the end to the appropriate length.

Is there some sort of rubberized seal (like piston rings?) around the piston to seal it to the shell? If so, then the heat of the fire might damage it. But if it is some sort of silicone, it might withstand the heat and be okay.








I dont know about the seal. I paid 14 or 15 dollars no shipping. we will see. Looks like you pull plunger back, fill up tube then just press plunger. I plan on opening the cylinder up though enouhg to use as scoop and have the plunger to push fuel into firebox. Since it is small investment may have to modify some to accomplish what I want to do. As I said will see. Need to have something to keep me busyand my mind and hands occupied.


Ha ha... you actually paid less by paying more... the $8.40 one has $7.95 in shipping ($16.35 total vs your $13.45) so you saved $2.90! (I assume the $27.00 one is for an Aster engine?)

Just remember, when "injecting" fuel, don't push the piston/plunger forward, pull the syringe body backward. The Piston is only to block the fuel from coming back out of the firebox with the scoop.

I hope it is not too large a diameter to fit the fire-door opening!

The $27.00 one has more photos of it (it is listed as a medical "used, collectable"!) and it shows a black "O"-ring around the piston in one of the views. It might be heat resistant, but I think it will probably have to be removed.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I do NOT coal fire, but here is an observation that I have made over the years. 
The fire doors are always operated be pulling and pushing with some kind of a hook. 
Has anyone tried extending the 'hinge' mechanism to a lever that would be easier to 'snag' and even perhaps with a spring. 
It could be hooked down somehow, and then released when finished. 
Like I say, I do not coal fire, so this may be considered as 'not the way things are done'! 
But, just a thought. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 
Off to Sacramento tomorrow, where I know there will be a lot of coal firing.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Same as David not a coal-er, still, imagination and free advice knows no bounds. Always wondered why no one made themselves a metal funnel? No taper to the neck, about 6-8" long. Neck roughly same diameter as firebox opening. Curved like a playground slide. Maybe better, a coal shoot. Take the same funnel and cut off the top 1/3 or 1/2 along its length. Call it a scale coal feeder. Just a thought.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris Scott on 16 Jul 2012 04:17 PM 

Same as David not a coal-er, still, imagination and free advice knows no bounds. Always wondered why no one made themselves a metal funnel? No taper to the neck, about 6-8" long. Neck roughly same diameter as firebox opening. Curved like a playground slide. Maybe better, a coal shoot. Take the same funnel and cut off the top 1/3 or 1/2 along its length. Call it a scale coal feeder. Just a thought. 
Chris
Interesting that you mention a coal chute...we had made one and indicated as a useful tool in our coal firing video:


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris Scott on 16 Jul 2012 04:17 PM 

Same as David not a coal-er, still, imagination and free advice knows no bounds. Always wondered why no one made themselves a metal funnel? No taper to the neck, about 6-8" long. Neck roughly same diameter as firebox opening. Curved like a playground slide. Maybe better, a coal shoot. Take the same funnel and cut off the top 1/3 or 1/2 along its length. Call it a scale coal feeder. Just a thought. 

Actually, several reasons... you don't want the firebox door open most of the time, so to use a funnel/chute you'd have to open it, insert the chute and the pour the fuel into it. The fuel (assummng it doesn't clog the chute) would then pile up at the end of the chute and it would be harder and take longer to rake it out to get an even firebed. Then remove the chute and close the firedoor... too much work... Too much time with the firedoor open.

In the 12"=1' scale the fireman has a foot tredle/switch that he can step on to open the door when he has a shovelfull ready to toss. Then as he removes the shovel, he releases the foot trip and the door closes. Keeps the door closed except for the short time necessary to throw the fuel in.

The good fireman tosses a shovelfull at the front left corner and another at the front right corner, then dumps a shovelfull to the left just inside the firebox doorway and another to the right. Then he tosses a load into the firebox near the center, but often whacks the bottom of the shovel on the bottom of the firebox doorway to shock the coal in every direction all at once. That is 5 seperate opening and closings of the door. The adage is that if the fireman pays attention to the corners he will have a good fire.

He wants an even thickness to the burning material and a uniform fire over the entire area with no holes in the fuel, no extra-hot hot-spots and no cold-spots. The bed of fuel needs to be thin enough for air to enter over the entire area for uniform burning.

Air coming in through the firedoor tends to cool the crownsheet and upper flues and ruins the steamability and can damage the boiler.


I have heard of people trying to make automatic stokers for small boilers, but crushed coal at scale just doesn't work right, At scale, the coal is more a powder than weighty chunks that will fall to the firebed. Instead, it tends to blow right through the flues without burning at all.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 16 Jul 2012 05:15 PM 
Posted By Chris Scott on 16 Jul 2012 04:17 PM 

Same as David not a coal-er, still, imagination and free advice knows no bounds. Always wondered why no one made themselves a metal funnel? No taper to the neck, about 6-8" long. Neck roughly same diameter as firebox opening. Curved like a playground slide. Maybe better, a coal shoot. Take the same funnel and cut off the top 1/3 or 1/2 along its length. Call it a scale coal feeder. Just a thought. 
Chris
Interesting that you mention a coal chute...we had made one and indicated as a useful tool in our coal firing video:





No, I was talking about shooting coal. Guess I shot my foot. But let's do have a coal shoot. Sounds like fun. Shall we say 50 paces, sling shots all round, everyone gets to shoot once. Only thing we have to agree on is the target. Nominations? 

Yours is a good start. I was taking a queue from coal feeders used in later coal firing locos where a screw fed coal in a chute to the firebox, obviously in our case leaving out the screw. An after thought, a child's playground slide was a poor analogy. It has a flat bottom. I should have used a water slide, they're round bottomed though I'm not suggesting using water.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

When first learning chute was used it mainly to get the wet charcoal into the fire box to prevent the flammable liquid from spilling onto the floor of the cab as a step towards a coal fire. Actually a coal chute can be quite useful for beginner, elderly or those who lack quick of hand or unsteady hand in getting coal from bunker into fire bed. I have seen many novices keep the fire box door open and not able to get coal into the firebox thus losing the fire. A person can be just as quick with getting the coal down the chute, pull out the chute and banking/raking the coal,close the door and keep the beast hot. Just a tool to assist those in need. Most people find a technique that works after some trial and error using an instrument (shovel of various shape) that delivers the fuel where and how much is necessary. 





Posted By Semper Vaporo on 16 Jul 2012 05:46 PM 
Posted By Chris Scott on 16 Jul 2012 04:17 PM 

Same as David not a coal-er, still, imagination and free advice knows no bounds. Always wondered why no one made themselves a metal funnel? No taper to the neck, about 6-8" long. Neck roughly same diameter as firebox opening. Curved like a playground slide. Maybe better, a coal shoot. Take the same funnel and cut off the top 1/3 or 1/2 along its length. Call it a scale coal feeder. Just a thought. 

Actually, several reasons... you don't want the firebox door open most of the time, so to use a funnel/chute you'd have to open it, insert the chute and the pour the fuel into it. The fuel (assummng it doesn't clog the chute) would then pile up at the end of the chute and it would be harder and take longer to rake it out to get an even firebed. Then remove the chute and close the firedoor... too much work... Too much time with the firedoor open.

In the 12"=1' scale the fireman has a foot tredle/switch that he can step on to open the door when he has a shovelfull ready to toss. Then as he removes the shovel, he releases the foot trip and the door closes. Keeps the door closed except for the short time necessary to throw the fuel in.

The good fireman tosses a shovelfull at the front left corner and another at the front right corner, then dumps a shovelfull to the left just inside the firebox doorway and another to the right. Then he tosses a load into the firebox near the center, but often whacks the bottom of the shovel on the bottom of the firebox doorway to shock the coal in every direction all at once. That is 5 seperate opening and closings of the door. The adage is that if the fireman pays attention to the corners he will have a good fire.

He wants an even thickness to the burning material and a uniform fire over the entire area with no holes in the fuel, no extra-hot hot-spots and no cold-spots. The bed of fuel needs to be thin enough for air to enter over the entire area for uniform burning.

Air coming in through the firedoor tends to cool the crownsheet and upper flues and ruins the steamability and can damage the boiler.


I have heard of people trying to make automatic stokers for small boilers, but crushed coal at scale just doesn't work right, At scale, the coal is more a powder than weighty chunks that will fall to the firebed. Instead, it tends to blow right through the flues without burning at all.


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's my solution. I cut down a couple of stainless steel spoons with hacksaw and files. One was a teaspoon and the other a long-handled spoon for tall fountain drinks. The attached photo shows both of them. (One in gondola and other on table next to water pitcher.). I beveled the back side of the shovel tip to a chisel edge just like you're supposed to do to a full-scale shovel. Makes it real easy to scoop up a shovelful of coal. Also the length of the blade is appropriate for the length of the firebox and the fire door is big enough for the shovel plus coal to go through. Scoop up some coal, insert shovel through fire door, and tip shovel right or left.

Steve


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 16 Jul 2012 05:46 PM 
Posted By Chris Scott on 16 Jul 2012 04:17 PM 

Same as David not a coal-er, still, imagination and free advice knows no bounds. Always wondered why no one made themselves a metal funnel? No taper to the neck, about 6-8" long. Neck roughly same diameter as firebox opening. Curved like a playground slide. Maybe better, a coal shoot. Take the same funnel and cut off the top 1/3 or 1/2 along its length. Call it a scale coal feeder. Just a thought. 

Actually, several reasons... you don't want the firebox door open most of the time, so to use a funnel/chute you'd have to open it, insert the chute and the pour the fuel into it. The fuel (assummng it doesn't clog the chute) would then pile up at the end of the chute and it would be harder and take longer to rake it out to get an even firebed. Then remove the chute and close the firedoor... too much work... Too much time with the firedoor open.

In the 12"=1' scale the fireman has a foot tredle/switch that he can step on to open the door when he has a shovelfull ready to toss. Then as he removes the shovel, he releases the foot trip and the door closes. Keeps the door closed except for the short time necessary to throw the fuel in.

The good fireman tosses a shovelfull at the front left corner and another at the front right corner, then dumps a shovelfull to the left just inside the firebox doorway and another to the right. Then he tosses a load into the firebox near the center, but often whacks the bottom of the shovel on the bottom of the firebox doorway to shock the coal in every direction all at once. That is 5 seperate opening and closings of the door. The adage is that if the fireman pays attention to the corners he will have a good fire.

He wants an even thickness to the burning material and a uniform fire over the entire area with no holes in the fuel, no extra-hot hot-spots and no cold-spots. The bed of fuel needs to be thin enough for air to enter over the entire area for uniform burning.

Air coming in through the firedoor tends to cool the crownsheet and upper flues and ruins the steamability and can damage the boiler.


I have heard of people trying to make automatic stokers for small boilers, but crushed coal at scale just doesn't work right, At scale, the coal is more a powder than weighty chunks that will fall to the firebed. Instead, it tends to blow right through the flues without burning at all.





Well, seems that's a list of about every fault anyone could find. Alternatively with a little thought the same best practices could be applied, work as effectively if not better, using a chute as a shovel? It is possible, possible, you'd have to admit. I suppose we'd need a stoking test or contest to know. It just take some common sense? Like using the poker to spread the coal around after shoveling or chute-ing it in. Coalers do that now, probably have pretty much forever. Just a thought.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

The interesting history of stokers;

"Around 1900 large steam locomotives reached the limit that a fireman could fire by hand. This was somewhere around 5,000 pounds of coal per hour. A mechanical substitute for the fireman and shovel had to be found. The tasks that a stoker had to perform were complicated. It had to bring chunks of coal of various sized from the tender through a flexible joint to the engine and into a very hot firebox. It then had to enable the coal to be spread evenly across the surface of the grates in the firebox. A number of methods were tried. The successful design for a mechanical stoker that emerged was an augur screw that lay in a trough at the bottom of the tender that brought coal through a tube to the firebox and up into a funnel-shaped container where jests of steam were used to disperse the coal throughout the firebox. By the 1920s most medium to large steam locomotives had stokers.

The pieces of coal used in mechanical stokers needed to be smaller than the pieces of coal used for hand firing. As a result, most coal docks had two chutes to each track. Stoker coal was about 1"-2" pieces, while hand fired coal was larger, from about 4" to 6".

Coal stoker augers (feed screws) would often jam on a chunk of coal that would not feed through the tube. The fireman would reverse the stoker engine, which would usually free the jam. Sometimes the chunk that jammed the auger would refuse to break, and the fireman would have to run the stoker engine in reverse until the large chunk was pushed to the rear of the coal bunker. Hopefully it would stay there until the bunker was emptied. Having stoker coal crushed to a smaller size than hand-fire coal was supposed to prevent this, but large chunks slipping through was not uncommon.

The largest coal-burning locomotives before the invention of the power stoker were around the 2-8-2 and 4-8-2 size such as Southern 4501. These would require two firemen when working hard."

A few of the types of stokers; Chain Grate Stoker, Hanna Locomotive Stoker, Street Mechanical Stoker, Crawford Mechanical Underfeed Stoker.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

I recieved the syringe today and it is entirely to large for the firebox opening. It may be okay for the K-4 conversion thet TRS is doing for me. The idea though is right up the alley. This syringe is brass and counld be made into the real deal as fas as loading coal is concerned.
Done in right diameter it would make loading charcoal or coal a real snap. Proper lenghth would put coal in front of fire baxk and banked side filled could be rotated to fill sides and the backed out to fill back of firebox. 
I have not given up on idea.
Opening in C-62 is in between quarter and dollar coin size. If it were siver dollar size would come close to working with the device.


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