# New Dallee sound is a winner.



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I recently installed a sample of the new Dallee Hi-Line sound into an RS3 demo loco.



Dallee has Hi-Line sound for Diesels, Steam locos, RailCars and Electric locos.
Each as has multiple choices of Bells, Horns -/ Whistles & Prime Movers etc.
Lots of programmable choices.
Installation in my battery R/C demo loco was straightforward. Volume can be controlled from a function on the TX handpiece as can the programming.
Can be used by regular track power (has super caps for back up) , Battery R/C etc.
R/C control of Whistle / Horn, Bell, Forced Notch 8 and programming / volume.
I am impressed. A quantum leap compared to the non Polyphonic sound Dallee used to offer.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Tony, I just had to find a sample although it would be better to hear the real thing. The below video was posted only yesterday. 






Andrew


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Andrew,
Based on those samples I guess I will think again about installing the steam sound in a Bachmann Fn3 Mallet.
Must admit I have only tried the diesel sound.

Why is it Dallee diesel sound is terrific but seems to be a bit lacking with steam?
Mylocosound is the other way around.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I thought the diesel was dismal. Glad to hear them so I know I'm still happy with my choices.

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
Each to his own opinion. Just remember you are exclusively DCC and these are for non DCC users.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I am more in agreement with you, Tony. That sound is a far cry from the old monophonic boards I used to use. They have definitely come a long way.

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh, I agree that it is much better than the old ones, where the diesel sounded like a 1950's doorbell buzzer.

Just that it's a good product in that price range, and I would not pay $100 for it, but apparently it's now $150. I'd spend the extra $50 and get a top of the line system that will work on DC and DCC and run smoke and run lights and run servos, etc.

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

A nice array of sounds and features. Certainly better than the old units, but:

The sound is "thin", maybe due to small speakers/poor enclosure/bad recording, and

The chuff is pathetic and sounds like somesome scratching on a guiro.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

And if it is a small engine you can get the programmable 1.8 amp Zimo decoder that controls everything in one small package.
Specs for the MX645P22 are:
1.8 total amps
6 function outputs plus front/rear lights all are programmable for many different uses.
3 watt audio
SUSI or 2 servo outputs
Fan control for motorized smoke units
Heater element control for smoke units
14/28/128 speed steps
30 volt rating with 50 volt surge rating

Price, less than $100

And if you only need 1.2 amps there is a smaller version with wires for less $$ and it works great in my LGB stainz.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan.
Can the decoder you mention be controlled by regular DC with externally triggerable sound effects?
Also, is it capable of being used with battery R/C and have the sound effects also triggerable?


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony, there is one programmable input on this decoder. I do set these up to run on DC and DCC, I have 4 of them in use at home and run them both ways as I take these to shows that are DC only.
Biggest issue is the sound library, but it is growing and it much bigger than 3 years ago. 
SOme sounds are made by independent programmers and they charge a fee for their sounds.
The Zimo Largescale decoders have 3 programmable inputs but the pulsed current draw will trip the DCC output of a G3 for example. Remember that if an engine draws 1 amp, the decoder drain on the power source is a much higher current as it is a pulsed current whose average will be 1 amp. Zimo can pulse over 10 amps!!

For Battery users, I hope that the DCC output will be upgraded in the future to be able to drive more current and then any DCC decoder can be used and not limited to sound only.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan I did ask you specific questions.
Can you answer those please?
I take it you won't mind me offering battery R/C information on a DCC thread?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No this is not the same as battery vs. track power Tony.

This is a thread about a sound card, and there are alternatives to sound presented. These alternatives can encompass even more functionality.

And for $150 instead of $100 this new "winner" must survive the scrutiny of comparison to other alternatives.

Presenting it as a "winner" attracted my attention to see if it really was a "winner".


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg.
This a non DCC sound system.
DCC can do things it cannot do and likewise it can do things that DCC cannot do.
For example, please list the total number of DCC sound systems that can have the sound systems triggered by reed switches and magnets in the track.

Have you actually tried the new Dallee sound?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, I'm transmitting but you are not receiving.

We ALL know it is not a DCC sound system.

But it IS a sound system, and you can use other products on DC, and Dan brought one up, and he's answering.

What you are missing is this, you said: "I take it you won't mind me offering battery R/C information on a DCC thread?"

And that is NOT the point... it is NOT the same, Dan is pointing out an alternative sound system that could be used on DC.

It is NOT the same as suggesting battery on a track powered thread.

Now, if you still don't "understand" it is because you don't WANT to. No reason to throw that "zinger" in at all. 

I get it you are po'd because not everyone is jumping up and down about this new sound card. It's not under $100, it's $150. It is NOT the greatest thing since sliced bread in my estimation. 

If you present on a forum, you should expect responses. That's what a forum is about. So stick to the facts, and not try to start trouble.

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greggy me lad.
You need to compare apples with apples.
DCC sound decoders that cannot be triggered by external sources are not the same as a DC sound system that can be triggered by outside sources. No matter cheap they are.
Show me a DCC sound system that can be triggered by outside sources such as reed switches and magnets in the track and I will concede you have a point.
You and Dan have hijacked a thread with claims that DCC sound decoders can be equal to something else when they are clearly not.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree, not all DCC sound decoders have trigger inputs.

I think Dan just showed you one, but it only had one input.

I believe there are more options, and I will go study, because this question comes up a lot.

Sorry for the diversion, I'll report back on another thread.

We now resume your regularly scheduled program. 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

At last, a bit of common sense and less blatant DCC pushing.
By all means do the research to see if there are any DCC sound decoders that can be triggered externally and report back to us.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually there are, and they are almost the same price as this unit and have far more features. Dan and I will start a thread, he has already found a model that has chuff, bell and whistle input, and pulsed smoke control, etc.

Greg

p.s. it's not blatant DCC pushing, just using a decoder that can work well on DC, most new top of the line sound systems are DCC just due to the market size.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll tell you why it was "pushing DCC".
Starting with post # 7 you had no idea there were any DCC sound decoders that had triggerable outputs. Otherwise you would have mentioned them. Yet off you went pushing DCC as a viable alternative.

I wait with baited breath to read your research.
Then, please tell us how they can be programmed. Will they need a DCC system to program them?

It would be far more informative for our readers if you actually compared similar systems.
MyLocosound. OK for the low cost. Good steam, diesels suck. IR remote for programming.
Phoenix. Great sound but expensive. Needs a computer to program them.
Dallee is reasonable cost, can be programmed without any extra bits and pieces. I like the diesel sound I am using and so does anyone that has heard it.

I will be installing the steam sound and battery R/C in a Bachmann Fn3 Mallet this weekend. I have hopes but will reserve judgement until I have actually tried it.
Just like you should do.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

actually i believed there were DC/DCC units with trigger inputs all the time, don't know how you inferred this, but you are incorrect in guessing what I know... 

I'm comparing systems that can make sound and like I said, if this unit is $150, then for $50 more I can get more functionality and better sound.

by the way it is "bated breath" as in withholding or restricting breathing...

baited breath would be breath smelling like bait, sardines, etc.

when you presented this product as a "winner" then I wanted to see how it "wins" over other solutions... is it better than the $100 and $75 alternatives, yes..

is it better than the $200 alternative, I don't think so. 

I believe it might have a niche, but that niche is eroding, as more and more DC compatible and R/C compatible features are being added to mainstream DCC decoders.

This product should sell for $100 then it would be a winner in my estimation..

Greg


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Perhaps Tony likes sushi 










Andrew


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

My response was mainly due to another battery control manufacturer that is coming out with a much stronger DCC drive circuit where many of the DCC decoders can be used and they can be configured from the transmitter hand held unit.
All Zimo decoders do have an input (large scale have 3) and there is a sound only decoder that has everything but the motor control (servo, smoke, lights) and uses the Zimo sound library.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, let's not start a war where you have an axe to grind.

I want to start another thread where we can explore electronics that can be used as sound cards with R/C systems, i.e. have inputs to trigger sounds.

It can be done with multiple products, and I was not promoting DCC, but alternatives that may be just as much or more bang for the buck.

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Nah Andrew.
I just like stirring Greg.
He bites every time. 

Bated breath it is. So Greg finally got something right.
I must actually thank him for keeping this thread going.
Without his hijacking it when he did, it probably would have disappeared without trace like it did at the two other sites where I posted it.


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## reeveha (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony's just living up to his profile pic!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

However we argue, or seem to be at odds, I respect Tony for his experience and ideas of quality and how to do business.

He knows this, but others might not.

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Nicely put Greg.
Now all you need to do is provide the evidence and specs of DCC sound decoders that can be used by lowly regular DC users with reed switches and magnets, for example, to trigger them.

BTW those self same DCC sound decoders, if they actually exist, should not require a DCC system to program them. That is one thing Dallee does not need. You can change Bells, Whistles/Horns and prime movers with just a touch or two of a single pcb mounted button or a single R/C function. I grant you it is a bit fiddly but it does work.

Those soon to be detailed DCC sound decoders would also need to be able to read PWM motor output voltage without "confusing" their brains. For diesels at least, if not for steam as well. Dallee can do that.

If anyone can show me a DCC sound decoder that complies with those requirements and costs less than Dallee, I will be among the first to laud them.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually I said that for $50 more than the $150 unit you get a lot more, better sound, more options, synchronized smoke driver etc.

It's doubtful that newer DCC decoders will allow complex programming without a DCC system. I understand what YOU want, but given the increasing list of features, it does not make sense.

I do understand the specifications you want, but I am looking at the market and the users, and the world is moving forwards.

Just like how the older Phoenix systems needed their own programmers to do settings, and the current Phoenix systems can be programmed with DCC, I think this is an evolution, just as the new products that allow DCC decoders to interface like the AirWire Convertor, the "dead rail" stuff etc.

I will say that given YOUR parameters, you have tightly defined a very narrow range of products that will "work", but I'm looking at DC and R/C implementations in general.

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, the day you can prove to me that Large Scale DCC is more popular than regular 2 rail DC, I will conceded your point.
In the meantime Dallee is catering for the regular DC market and not DCC.
I can only state that if whatever you would like to cite as competition to Dallee cannot do what Dallee can do, there is no competition (other than say MyLocosound and Phoenix) and your continual urging of Large Scalers to adopt DCC is proof to me and many others that you have an agenda. To push DCC.

The fact remains that so far you have not offered any examples of DCC sound decoders that can be used:
1. With PWM track or battery R/C voltage.
2. Can be triggered with reed switches and magnets or R/C triggers.
3. Can be programmed without either DCC or computers.
I think at US$150 this new Dallee sound is a bargain and a winner in my book.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Whether or not DCC decoders come with external triggers that can be used in an analog DC environment isn't the biggest stumbling block to DCC decoders supplanting Phoenix, Dallee, MyLocoSound et. al. in the analog DC market. That's the least of the issues. Tony touches on a few of the big ones.

First, there's the seemingly universal incompatibility of DCC decoders with Pulse-Width-Modulation voltage control. I've yet to encounter one which functions as it should on PWM. Some simply do nothing, others stutter and behave erratically. (One reprogrammed itself, requiring a full reset!) If you're running analog DC and are using Bridgewerks or an LGB Jumbo or other pack which outputs a filtered, linear DC signal, then you're golden. But what happens when you take your loco to your friends' line, or go to a club display? 

On top of that, locos with DCC decoders running in analog DC environments lose the first 6 or 7 volts just to power the board. If you're running two identical locos--one with a DCC decoder, one without--they're going to run at different speeds for a given track voltage. By the time the DCC-equipped loco has enough voltage to even wake up the decoder, the non-DCC-equipped loco is scampering down the tracks at 20 scale mph. 

Second, the strength of the Phoenix, Dallee, and MyLocoSound systems is that they're parallel systems. There's no need to modify the existing electronics in the locomotive. All you need to do is find the wires coming from the rails and connect them to the sound board as well. All other wiring is simply that which each specific sound board might need with regard to chuffs, bell and whistle triggers, speaker, and perhaps battery back-up. If you want to sell the loco later "as original," you merely snip the wires from the rails to the sound board. DCC decoders require a full-on installation where you typically replace most (all?) of the stock on-board electronics with the decoder, requiring you to basically re-wire the entire locomotive to get proper sound, lights, and motion. Folks wanting the simplicity of analog DC operation aren't going to do that. 

There's also the programming element. More and more, DCC decoders are coming with entire sound libraries stored on the board itself. You don't buy a DCC decoder for a specific XYZ locomotive anymore; you buy "Steam" or "Diesel" or "Electric." These boards cannot be programmed without a DCC interface, be it a standalone system or computer interface. The analog DC user is pretty much stuck with the defaults should he/she want to go with one of these boards. 

There's no doubt the latest DCC sound/motor decoders are really, REALLY cool! That's why I favor them. However, they are simply not comparable products to Phoenix, Dallee, or MyLocoSound sound boards. Those boards are purpose-built to be used in analog DC environments. The DCC boards may have limited compatibility in that arena, but it's not designed specifically for that market. As such, the manufacturers don't give much--if any--thought to user-friendliness in that arena. As much as I love my DCC decoders, there's absolutely no way I'd install one in a locomotive to be used in an analog DC environment. 

Analog DC will be the dominant means of controlling our large scale trains for quite some time to come. No matter how user-friendly DCC or battery R/C become, it's still a fair bit of extra work to do the installation, and the majority of folks simply don't want to bother. The truth of the matter is that you can already get top-drawer DCC sound systems for _less_ money than the Dallee and Phoenix boards. But what good do they do you if you can't control them or program them?

Later,

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Kevin.
As a dealer I am continually on the lookout for sound systems that will do what I and a myriad of other DC users want.
I thought QSI (one of Greg's favourites) had it nailed some time ago but the user convenience never materialised. I truly am interested in using a DCC sound decoder as they offer a great deal. But sadly, not for run of the mill DC use.
I used to sell Dallee years ago and eventually stopped doing so mainly because they were not Polyphonic.
When Dallee first announced this updated line I bought and paid for two samples at dealer nett to try out in my battery R/C demo locos. I really do like the diesel sound and am considering once again selling them here in Australia.
I do have a steam sound card and will be installing it in a demo loco this weekend. If I don't like it I will say so.


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

If you don't mind a question, what things on an R/C system do you use to trigger the sounds? I have some circuit designs and software that translate the servo pulse widths into DCC throttle commands. I feed that into an HO Econami decoder for the engine sounds, but I was wondering, on an R/C system, what is generally used to trigger the other sound functions?


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

On my R/C they are open collector transistors controlled by function command push-buttons on the TX handpiece.
However if you have the ability to interpret servo signals coming from Digital Proportional receivers and convert them to DCC commands to feed into DCC decoders, you would have a winner.
I would be very interested in talking to you about this subject. It would eliminate the on board command stations such as sold by CVP.
2.4 GHz 6 channel DSM2 compatible receivers are readily available and cost as little as US$5 each.


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

Tony, you can contact me at [email protected]
I'd be happy to give you an overview of what I'm doing. Some general info is on my blog too-
http://martinsant.net/

Thanks,
Martin


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, I think you did a good summary of the requirements for DC / RC use of sound systems. The handling of PWM is simple technologically, as we have all seen the little boards that "filter" PWM into DC, and they have been used for years. Now, either incorporating that circuit into a DCC board, or making it so cheap and small that you just put it in series with the DCC board input, this can be done.

Seeing all the extra boards in many R/C installations, I cannot see how this is a big deal, but I'll also look into it.

That really zeros out the PWM concern entirely, because all you are trying to get from that is (desired) motor speed. Simple.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't know that I've seen a PWM->Linear board that would be small enough to be of use to analog DC users for on-board installations, so please let us know what you find in that regard. Aristo/Crest has theirs, but it's anything but small. Current capacity would have to match that of the decoder, so on the order of 5 amps, 10 if you're using the heavy-duty decoders. 

Later,

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg.
Most R/C installations only require a max of three pcb's. RX, ESC, and the Dallee sound system.
There are also a couple of R/C Rx/ESC's that are on one pcb. = Total two pcb's.

So what is it with all those extra pcb's to which you refer, eh?

Plus, you don't need lots of extra boards in regular DC installations anwyay.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony, possibly referring to the Revo where smoke and linear boards are offered.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

last time I checked my math 3 is still more than 2 or one

tony, you are too wound up in winning over what the facts are.

take it easy, I know you derive income from doing this.. I don't ... so I have no reason to pick one solution over another...

anyway, I guess you forgot about the boards offered to keep sierra boards from going nuts from pwm from controllers?

Would you like me to find posts where you talked about them?

I'm tired of this...

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
You should be tired full stop, from trawling around trying to dig up facts that justify your point of view. So far with no success whatsoever. ....and when that doesn't work, you change the subject, just as you usually do.

You are smart man, way, way smarter than me, and you should have no need to do that.
I respectfully suggest you give it a rest for a change.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

When it comes to battery R/C installations, yes, you _could_ use a non-DCC ESC system to feed voltage to a DCC motor/sound decoder to use its sounds, but why would you want to? For example, I could use my Crest Revolution ESC in conjunction with a Piko DCC motor/sound decoder. The Piko decoder has external triggers for bell and whistle, ostensibly to be used with track magnets to trigger sounds in analog DC mode. 

Okay, so what would I have to do to do that? I'd take the output of my Revolution and feed it to the track input of the Piko decoder via a PWM->Linear filter. I'd then use the auxiliary triggers on the Revolution to hook up to the bell and whistle trigger connections on the Piko decoder. Technically, it's doable, though I'm still hoping Greg can point out suitably small PWM->Linear filter boards for on-board installations, because the current Crest board doesn't lend itself to on-board installations.

What does that get me? First of all, the Piko decoder needs 6 volts minimum to even wake up. If I'm running 15 volts worth of batteries, that gives me 9 volts at the most available to go to the motor. So, right off the bat, I've got an unnecessarily slow locomotive. 

Second, there's no battery back-up on the Piko board, so when I go to change direction or the track voltage otherwise drops below that 6 volt threshold, the sounds and lights go away. 

Third, I still can't program the Piko decoder. I'm stuck with factory defaults, whatever they may be.

Forth, while I can remotely trigger the bell and whistle from the Revolution remote, I'm limited to their pre-programmed playout sequence. Bell for x amount of seconds, and a pre-programmed whistle pattern. There's no real-time control, because the remote triggers on the Piko board are designed for track magnet triggers, not real-time. 

So, after jumping through all those hoops, I've got a very limited, nowhere-near-ideal set-up. Yes, I can use my existing Revolution controller (or RCS, G-scale Graphics, LocoLink, etc.), but it's ham-handed at best. 

It makes far more sense if you're in the battery R/C world and want to use DCC motor/sound decoders to just use an Airwire transmitter with either the Convertr or Tam Valley Depot receivers. Connect the output of that receiver to the input of the decoder, and you're off and running. You'll have full voltage available to the motor, as many light and sound functions as the decoder allows, including real-time bell and whistle sounds, and the ability to program the decoder to your heart's content via the transmitter. Yes, you're buying into a 2nd system, but it's the only _practical_ way to run these decoders if you want to run them. They're simply not intended to be run with any amount of functionality in any environment outside of DCC. 

I can see--from Tony's perspective--the desire for as broad a range of sound systems to choose from as possible for non-DCC control systems. If I were in his shoes, I'd be wishing the DCC manufacturers would include more non-DCC functionality in their products. Alas, I don't see that happening, not when (a) large scale in and of itself is such a small part of their market, to say nothing of battery R/C large scalers, and (b) it's increasingly simple for a large scale modeler to use their decoders in the intended DCC operating environment with commercial wireless control products. 

As a consumer, I've felt Tony's pain. I've used Sierra, Phoenix, Dallee, MyLocoSound, etc. with my non-DCC controllers because that's what works with them. I heard all these great DCC motor/sound decoders and thought "that's great, but I can't use 'em." The only DCC motor/sound decoder I could use up until just recently was QSI. I thought about possibly using these other boards in "analog DC" mode, but the operational limits were too much of a compromise for me. 

I love good sound; it's arguably the paramount consideration for me when I choose electronics to go in a locomotive. As soon as Airwire and Tam Valley Depot came out with generic DCC-compatible receivers that allowed me to use the DCC decoders on the market, the floodgates opened, and I've not looked back. I love my Phoenix boards. They're great paired with my Revolution and Airwire motor/light receivers. But now, I can choose those combinations because I _want_ to, not because I _have_ to. I've got the transmitters for multiple protocols, so I'm not limited to one flavor or the other. 

Let's come back to the original point of this thread, which is specifically _non_-DCC sound systems. These boards are specifically designed to be used in analog track power environments, as they've got the ability to hook up back-up batteries to keep the sound going when track voltage gets low, multiple real-time sound triggers, etc. This has been a tried-and-true blueprint for 20 years now, and their simplicity lends itself very well to the casual user who just wants basic sound and an easy installation up to the "power user" who wants full-featured sound systems that rival the prototype. Dallee's upgrade in this arena is just the latest example of how this niche remains competitive. MyLocoSound recently upgraded theirs as well. The floor is rising in terms of quality and functions. Whether they're up to the latest DCC decoders doesn't really come into play since the latest DCC decoders are not specifically engineered to work in these environments. Improvements in quality are always welcome in my book. These boards today are worlds beyond where we were 20 years ago, and I fully expect that floor to continue to keep rising over the next 20.

Later,

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Kevin.
Might I suggest now might be a good time to close this thread. Perhaps the hi-jack theme should be an interesting discussion in its own right, once transferred to a separate thread.

Martin Sant has raised an interesting possibility in his posting and I for one think that is worth pursuing.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually Kevin, the point of the thread was to present a new sound system, that works well with R/C systems, not DC systems, and not "not DCC". Just read the thread title and the first post.

We diverged, and I'm mostly guilty for the divergence. I maintain my original comment, it's not worth $150, I'd rather spend $200 for a decoder with more functions that I can run from an R/C system.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, from a DCC-centric viewpoint, absolutely, there are decoders which sound at least as good (I'm loathe to judge sound quality solely from a single YouTube video), and are cheaper, even. I'm with you on that, but (a) I have the advantage of having the Airwire transmitter that can interface with those DCC decoders, and (b) I'm not remotely adverse to ripping all the electronics out of a locomotive to do an installation.

This board isn't aimed at folks like us. It's aimed at folks who want simple, standalone sound systems which do not require wholesale rewiring of locomotives in order to get quality sound. DCC decoders do not fall into that category. There aren't many players in that specific game. Sure, $150 is more than the $110 of the old Dallee boards, but it's still less than the $210 of the Phoenix. 

Later,

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg.
What part of:
*"Can be used by regular track power (has super caps for back up) , Battery R/C etc.
R/C control of Whistle / Horn, Bell, Forced Notch 8 and programming / volume."*
on the 1st post limits the posting just to R/C?.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Because you complained about PWM motor, and triggers from R/C, etc. etc.

Tony, be fair, you threw out all kinds of challenges to tightly control what can be used... and you really only care about R/C...

Let's be honest here...

In any case you have revived my interest in filters to smooth out PWM from an ESC to let any DCC capable decoder work.

Also, I think i will experiment with some of them with PWM as input, there might be some that will handle it.

There are lots of alternatives when using a $150 sound board. If it was $100 or a bit less I'd call it a winner myself. Many DCC HO DC/DCC decoder boards are LESS money, so adding a PWM filter makes them a viable alternative especially combined with many more features than a standalone sound board.

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg.
There you go again.
Changing the subject.
I did not complain about pwm in the first post. Neither was it saying I was exclusively interested in just R/C in that 1st post. That is another figment of your fertile imagination. 
Comments about pwm only arose after you hijacked the thread to promote DCC sound decoders.

BTW this thread has now had nearly 1,000 viewers. So once again, I really must thank you for keeping the thread going.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

1,000 viewers! 'And those were the Days of Our Lives...' 

Andrew


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, go back to my *earlier post* about the drawbacks of using DCC decoders in analog DC environments. There are simply too many drawbacks to their operation for them to be considered viable alternatives to Phoenix, Dallee, and MyLocoSound. 

Case in point: I've got two of MTH's latest offerings sitting on my workshop shelf right now, having just published reviews of them. They work great under DCC, but under DC, I can't blow the horn or ring the bell, and the sound drops out whenever I slow the throttle down below 7 volts or change direction. I can't turn the lights on and off. _I can't even program the thing._ That is not in any way shape or form comparable performance to how the unit works under DCC. It _works_, yes (i.e., it makes noise). But it's not at all controllable. 

The Phoenix, Dallee, and MyLocoSound all have the capacity for controlling bells and whistles via external triggers. Track magnets give you pre-programmed sounds, or you can control them real time with pretty much any available R/C system. They all have the capacity for battery or super-cap back-up so they maintain sound when operating at low track voltages. They're completely independent of the motor and light controls, so they can be installed in a locomotive without needing to re-wire a single thing. None of that can be said of any current DCC decoder on the market--most significantly the last thing. 

If you want DCC decoders to function properly, you need a control system that can give them proper DCC commands. That's the environment for which they're designed. That's where their strengths are. An Airwire throttle will set you back around $150, and you can now combine any available DCC decoder with a receiver and have full control. Absent that ability to control them, though, DCC decoders are pretty useless compared to other products on the market. (That's arguably _why _these other products exist--to fill that void.) 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I read your posts Kevin.

The MTH example is a poor one, since they just started adding DCC to their products, but I do have a hard time believing that the horn or bell are not controllable.

Your example of the thing not running right under 7 volts, yes of course, you cannot go to zero volts, but the loco is stopped by then. I don't see this as a problem on DC, you look at the loco, and slow it down to stop it. It will be stopped well before you lose power. Yes on R/C this is probably an issue with a system that ALWAYS goes to zero volts, that is for sure, but I thought you could handle this with a good R/C system.

Again, this is an R/C issue, trying to find something that perfectly matches a direct connection to a motor, it won't ever be exactly the same.

But again, I'm talking DC...

We went over the external triggers, there are DCC/DC decoders that have them. I understand you would like 2 of them, a decoder that has THREE trigger inputs was already presented.

And I do not agree with you that if you want a DCC decoder to function properly you need to give them DCC commands.

In both your and Tony's arguments, you throw out EVERYTHING you can to negate the idea.

So one time it's too complex, the next time it does not have enough features.

So for people who just want bell and whistle remotely controlled there are quite a few solutions that are NOT DC only decoders.

By the way, I guess you forgot the QSI can be programmed with a magnet only.

Also by using the direction switch on a power pack, you can access the bell and whistle.

It may not be optimal, or meet ALL of the demands that have been tossed out, but again I maintain that $150 is too much for a DC only sound unit that has limited capability.

Just wait and watch, more and more is being added to the DCC product lines, and the standalone units are either going away or all going up in price to make people consider other alternatives.

The mere fact that the economies of scale for production will continue to drive DCC decoders down in price and allow more functions will drive this.

The small markets that Phoenix, MyLocoSound, etc. service will never let them stay competitive in price.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

_"...but I do have a hard time believing that the horn or bell are not controllable."_

From the instruction manual - "...however, functions such as sounding the horn, ringing the bell and the PFA ("all aboard," and similar crew announcements) cannot be initiated in conventional DC."

That has nothing to do with MTH being new to DCC. External triggers are a rarity on DCC decoders, always have been. As we've seen through this discussion, there are precious few decoders which even offer one, let alone multiple ones. Track magnets are rare (if existent) in the small scales for triggering sounds, so the manufacturers simply haven't bothered accommodating the technology.

Let's talk about a concrete example. Let's say I'm a modeler who runs analog track power. Most of it's LGB with old-school (non-MTS) factory sound, and I'm fine with how that works. Track magnets to blow whistles for grade crossings are okay in my book. 

I get a USA Trains diesel. It doesn't have sound. I want to install a sound system in it, but I don't want to have to re-wire the locomotive to do so. I just want to add a sound board and speaker, and be off and running with sound. I can do this with Phoenix, Dallee, and MyLocoSound. I simply install the board, speaker, magnetic reed switches for bell and whistle, and a back-up battery or super-cap as back-up power for when the track voltage is low. 

I'm open to learn of specific decoders (manufacturer and model number) which I could use in the above scenario as an alternative. 

That I've found, QSI's Titan has 4 reed-switch-triggerable sounds. Zimo's MX695 has three trigger inputs. All well and good, but both cost as much or more than Phoenix, and it's unknown how they'd function as a standalone sound unit in parallel with the motor as opposed to integrated into the loco's electronics. It's an option, though. Dan mentions the smaller Zimo 645, but it's got only one triggerable input. Cheaper, but less functionality. The only sound-only decoder I saw on Zimo's web site was the 689, but I didn't see reference to external triggers in the specs. So unknown whether that would work in this example or not. I know the Titan has the ability to use super caps for when the voltage gets low. I don't know about Zimo, though I'd presume so.

Soundtraxx and TCS do not offer external triggers. Piko does (2), but I don't know if they make a diesel sound, and on the steam side of things, the chuff rate is controlled by the motor BEMF, so it won't work as a standalone sound system. It has to be integrated into the locomotive wiring. LokSound? I'm not seeing references to external triggers in their literature, but I've not read it in depth. 

So, again... which specific DCC decoders work as standalone sound units that give me external sound triggers and do not require re-wiring of the locomotive? 

*****

_"...And I do not agree with you that if you want a DCC decoder to function properly you need to give them DCC commands."_

I know QSI allows you to trigger the whistle and bell by flipping the direction switch, etc. That's _one _decoder. By far, the norm is "you're outta luck," as referenced in my first paragraph. 

On top of that, how do you program a DCC decoder outside of the DCC environment? Some have computer interfaces (QSI, LokSound), but most do not. You need DCC functionality to some extent if you're using a DCC decoder, plain and simple. Even if you're setting it up solely to run on DC, you need access to the CVs to fine-tune the performance and set up your sounds for maximum accuracy. 

In fairness, Phoenix is programmed via their computer interface, so the notion of buying extra hardware and software plays to both sides of the equation. 

*****

_"The mere fact that the economies of scale for production will continue to drive DCC decoders down in price and allow more functions will drive this."_

If "more functions" means better and more complete compatibility for analog DC operations, I'm all for it! We've already seen something of an explosion in terms of new decoders accepting super caps which keep the sound going when the track voltage gets low. You can combine that with things like automatic directional whistles, bells on start-up, etc., that many decoders allow, and you can at least work around the lack of external triggers. It's not ideal, but it'd probably be okay for many. The question is, will they be standalone systems, or will they require you to integrate them fully into the locomotive wiring?


_"The small markets that Phoenix, MyLocoSound, etc. service will never let them stay competitive in price."_

If the functionality is unique, they don't have to be competitive in price. I think you're underestimating the market for these simple, standalone boards. Folks don't want to have to re-wire their locos just to get sound, so any system that allows folks a dead-nuts-simple installation will always have a competitive advantage over that which requires major electronic surgery. As we've seen, the manufacturers on this side of the coin are upping the ante to remain competitive. 

*****

Bottom line, don't misunderstand my view of DCC's capabilities in analog DC as a criticism on DCC in general. As I've stated many times, I'm a huge fan of DCC decoders and what they can do. I fully expect to see it expand not only in traditional track-powered DCC, but also wireless DCC. I suspect we'll see more Airwire-esque systems come on the market in the coming years, especially as we're seeing "Dead Rail" begin to catch on in the smaller scales. 

Still, the basic "analog DC" faction of the hobby will always be there, and be there in significant numbers. There will always be those in that group who want "simple" quality sound. If the DCC decoder manufacturers can't/won't cover that part of the hobby, there will always be those who will. 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Phoenix PB11 at a discount is $240, that is $50 more than a QSI or Zimo.

The Phoenix PB8 is $170, $20 cheaper than a QSI or Zimo 

Price is really not the issue... and the gap will "worsen" for Phoenix and other smaller companies... and look what you get, smoke output synced with chuff, better motor control, etc.

So what if you buy a little $20 to convert PWM motor output to the input.

Mark my words and come back in 5 years.

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Even after all your hyperbole Greg, you still cannot use DCC sound decoders with DC the way you can with Dallee, Phoenix & MyLocosound.

Or DCC motor/sound decoders for that matter.

Why don't you just give up, you cannot win the argument.
However, you are welcome back anytime to prove me wrong if you can. You don't have to wait 5 years.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can with the addition of a PWM to DC board, after all the only input to the sound cards (besides triggers which has been already shown to work) is the motor "voltage".

It's ok, you can do whatever you want. People who consider all the options can see what avenues are open to them. You cannot control their thinking.

Greg

p.s. you completely either misunderstand or just twisting the 5 years, I predicted the future... check back in 5 years and see if it is so. 

p.p.s I don't have to resort to insults to make my point Tony, but keep it up if you wish, "sticks and stones"


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Better be careful Tony or he may block you for the next 5 years. 

Frankly, anyone who needs to block someone only shows that they don't have enough self-control to censor themselves and must have the Internet do it for them.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Let's take things down a notch, gentlemen...

I think the biggest "tell" about the practicality of using DCC decoders as standalone (non-integrated) sound systems is to look at who is (or in this case, who _isn't_) doing it. None of this is "new" technology. We're a very inventive bunch; if there's a way to do something that's practical, someone will be doing it, posting or writing about it, or bringing it to their club meetings to show it off. I wouldn't presume to say "no one" is doing it, but if they are, they're definitely staying in the shadows. At the very least, I've not seen anyone doing so, and being a "sound junkie," I'm always looking for folks doing innovative things with sound. By far (and by that, I mean 99.99%) of the folks running traditional track-powered DC and adding sound systems I've encountered are using the traditional standalone systems from Phoenix, etc. 

Greg talks a lot about future systems and their functionality, but the trend is also for the newer systems to rely heavily on BEMF to shape the sounds. You can't do that in a standalone system where the motor isn't tied to the decoder. (This is one of Greg's common criticism of Phoenix vs. QSI.) As a result, the usefulness of these new systems as standalone sound boards will in all likelihood be further diminished, _strengthening _the need for non-DCC sound boards to satisfy those users.

Frankly, I see that as a "win-win" situation. Those who run DCC protocol, either via traditional track-based DCC systems or wireless dead-rail systems have an ever-broadening selection of really cool decoders to choose from, and I see that market expanding as dead-rail DCC systems become more mainstream. The Phoenixes of the hobby will have their market in terms of the analog DC users and all the non-DCC wireless operating systems. Nowhere in the sound side of the industry does it appear anyone is resting on their laurels. We've come a l-o-n-g way from the days of big PFM trackside boxes with cassette tapes, and I'm ever looking forward to where all of these roads lead. 

Later,

K


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

toddalin said:


> Better be careful Tony or he may block you for the next 5 years.
> 
> Frankly, anyone who needs to block someone only shows that they don't have enough self-control to censor themselves and must have the Internet do it for them.


Or he could spam the reputation system on the 'other site'... 

Andrew


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Garratt said:


> Or he could spam the reputation system on the 'other site'...
> 
> Andrew


Been known to happen.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Haven't even looked at this site for ? years ? Same players. Same arguments. Had to check the dates to make sure they were new posts. (Hi guys ! Just passing through)


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Not enough inputs???? The newest Zimo decoder for under $200 US has 4 programmable inputs, can control 2 smoke unit fans, has supercap caps on board, can control sound, motor, lights, smoke units and 4 servos.
These can be programmed for DC users but alas one must have a programmer. I do use Phoenix units and have their programmer, so why not have manufacturers programmers for any dcc programmable unit esp if you are selling them or installing in many engines.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Interestingly, as I spoke to the owner of QSI Solutions today (doing plug and play in C19's) he told me that a very high percentage of his Bachmann customers were using the QSI on DC. Of course there is the remote control capability with the reversing switch and the "Quantum Engineer".

Seems that politics aside, people will buy what works for them, not what they "should" buy.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, is the Quantum Engineer in production again? For the longest time, QSI's web site showed it as being discontinued. It appears to be back on their site with no such notice, so I'll take that as a good sign that it's at least back on the radar screen. I did notice the specs show that it's got a maximum current pass-through of 2.5 amps, which may limit its use for large scale. 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

yes, just bought a current production model myself, there have been a few improvements in internal quality and current handling. 

You can still order the high current booster, I have one, runs up to 40 amps.

Greg


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