# Reference Chart for Diesel Locomotives



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

*Hi* 
I'm putting together a reference chart for Diesel Locomotives available in g gauge. Most of Aristo Craft and USAT equipment is easy to list, but I need help with LGB and a few others.

What I am looking for are the manufacturer (Aristo Craft) etc, Prototype manufacturer (Alco) etc, and Locomotive designation (GP9)

Here is what I have so far:

Aristo Craft/REA:
Alco: E8/E9, FA1,FB1, RS-3
EMD: GP40, SD45
GE: Dash 9 44CW, U25-B 
Prototype Mfr ?: Doodle Bug
Prototype Mfr ?: RDC

Bachmann: 
GE: 45 Ton Center Cab

LGB:
Alco: F3, F7, DL-535E
EMD:
GE:
Prototype Mfr ?: Genesis

Lionel:
EMD: GP7, GP20

USAT:
Alco: PA1, PB1, S4
EMD: F3,GP7/9, GP30, GP38, NW2, SD40, SD70
Prototype Mfr ?: GG-1
Prototype Mfr ?: 44 ton Center cab

OK, what I have listed above is for the most part diesels used in North America. If someone wants to list those diesel used in Europe and Asia, feel free to list them. At this point I haven't started listing the small switchers that LGB has manufactured over the years but feel free to list them if you can. For those who really no the specifics of a certain brand and model, we could even list all the different roads the specific type Diesel was available from the manufacturer and those looking for only prototypical diesel equipment, we could even list what road names provided that were not actually used by the real railroads.

If you will help me with putting all this info together, I will post a chart with all the info once we get a good amount of info received.

What do you think?

Randy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think that E8's are not Alcos, they are EMC/EMD... 

F3 and F7's are also EMD, not Alco 

The 44 tonner center cabs were made by several different companies besides GE 

The RDC is Bud 

Regards, Greg


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, U R correct Greg 

Thanks


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

That's Budd not the drinking kind. 
The Doodlebug is EMC (pre EMD GM) 
Greg is right about the EMD E-8 

The GG-1 is electric so you may need a separate category for those. 

You'll need a whimsical division for the Lil' Critter, AC center cab and Eggliner 

I am guessing you will making this American prototypes only as there are many Euro dismals on the market 

Wiki is a great resource 

-Brian


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

By the way, I like your idea, I have a list of all the locos that Santa Fe used, and I also noted where there was a model close to the prototype. I use that for my "shopping list". 

What might be a neat addition to your information is how close the model is to the prototype, like is the Aristo really an RS-1 vs. RS-2, vs RS-3.. 

Regards, Greg


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Update:

*Aristo Craft/REA:*
Alco: FA1,FB1, RS-3
EMD: E8/E9, GP40, SD45
GE: Dash 9 44CW, U25-B 
EMC: Doodle Bug
Budd: RDC

*Bachmann: *
GE: 45 Ton Center Cab

*LGB:*
EMD: F3, F7
GE: DL535E
Prototype Mfr ?: Genesis

*Lionel:*
EMD: GP7, GP20

*USAT:*
Alco: PA1, PB1, S4
EMD: F3,GP7/9, GP30, GP38, NW2, SD40, SD70
Prototype Mfr ?: 44 ton Center cab

*Whimsical Catagory:*
Aritso Craft:
Critter
Center Cab
Egg Liner



*Electric Catagory:*
USAT:
Prototype Mfr ?: GG-1

Thanks for the suggestions and corrections so far

Randy


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

And dont forget MTH GG-1 and diesels also accucraft and bachmann made few smaller Diesels


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Humm, hadn't even thought about MTH 

Thanks


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 07 Dec 2009 12:25 PM 
Update:

*Aristo Craft/REA:*
Alco: FA1,FB1, RS-3
EMD: E8/E9, GP40, SD45
GE: Dash 9 44CW, U25-B 
EMC: Doodle Bug
Budd: RDC

*Bachmann: *
GE: 45 Ton Center Cab

*LGB:*
EMD: F3, F7
GE: DL535E
Prototype Mfr ?: Genesis

*Lionel:*
EMD: GP7, GP20

*MTH:*
EMD: F3
GE: Dash 8


*USAT:*
Alco: PA1, PB1, S4
EMD: F3,GP7/9, GP30, GP38, NW2, SD40, SD70
Prototype Mfr ?: 44 ton Center cab

*Whimsical Catagory:*
Aritso Craft:
Critter
Center Cab
Egg Liner



*Electric Catagory:*

MTH: 
Prototype Mfr ?: GG-1

USAT:
Prototype Mfr ?: GG-1

Thanks for the suggestions and corrections so far

Randy


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Some corrections and additions: 

LGB: 
EMD: F7 
Alco: DL535E 
GE: Genesis 

(LGB only makes an EMD F7, not an F3) 
(The DL535E is an Alco, not a GE) 
(The Genesis was built by GE) 

Under USAT, should be GP38-2 and SD40-2, not GP38 and SD40. (there is a difference! 
USAT 44 Ton Center Cab is made by GE. 

Whimsical Catagory: 
Aritso Craft: 
Critter - no real prototype, Aristo used Alco RS3 parts. 
Center Cab - no real prototype, Aristo used Alco RS3 parts 
Egg Liner - no real prototype, Aristo used passenger car parts. 

Electric Catagory: 
USAT: 
Pennsylvania Railroad: GG-1 
(prototype manufacturer was the PRR) 


hope that helps..list looks good! 
Scot


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 07 Dec 2009 01:01 PM 
Posted By rlvette on 07 Dec 2009 12:25 PM 
Update:

*Aristo Craft/REA:*
Alco: FA1,FB1, RS-3
EMD: E8/E9, GP40, SD45
GE: Dash 9 44CW, U25-B 
EMC: Doodle Bug
Budd: RDC

*Bachmann: *
GE: 45 Ton Center Cab

*LGB:*
Alco: DL535E
EMD: F7
GE: Genesis

*Lionel:*
EMD: GP7, GP20

*MTH:*
EMD: F3
GE: Dash 8


*USAT:*
Alco: PA1, PB1, S4
EMD: F3,GP7/9, GP30, GP38, NW2, SD40, SD70
GE: 44 ton Center cab

*Whimsical Catagory:*
Aritso Craft:
Critter
Center Cab
Egg Liner



*Electric Catagory:*

MTH: 
Prototype Mfr ?: GG-1

USAT:
Prototype Mfr ?: GG-1

Thanks for the suggestions and corrections so far

Randy


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Technically, the LGB DL535E should probably listed as MLW, not Alco. 
they are Alco designs, but built by MLW (Montreal Locomotive Works) in Canada. 
MLW was Alco's Canadian subsidiary.. 

actually, saying "Alco-MLW" as the manufacturer would probably make the most sense.. 
that covers all the bases! 

(you still need GP38-2 and SD40-2 under USAT..and technically it should be SD70 MAC..the regular SD70 is a slightly different loco than the SD70 MAC)

Scot


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Bachmann Davenport - Gas Mechanical made by Davenport Locomotive Works 

Accucraft Whitcomb - Gas Mechanical made by Whitcomb Mfg. Co. 
Accucraft Plymouth - Gas Mechanical made by Plymouth Locomotive Works 

LGB also made 2 and 3 axle little diesel switchers (Caterpillar?)


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 07 Dec 2009 01:20 PM 
Technically, the LGB DL535E should probably listed as MLW, not Alco. 
they are Alco designs, but built by MLW (Montreal Locomotive Works) in Canada. 
MLW was Alco's Canadian subsidiary.. 

actually, saying "Alco-MLW" as the manufacturer would probably make the most sense.. 
that covers all the bases! 

(you still need GP38-2 and SD40-2 under USAT..and technically it should be SD70 MAC..the regular SD70 is a slightly different loco than the SD70 MAC)

Scot 


See that, you learn something new everyday, i didnt know the Gp-38 was a Gp-38-2 thanks Scot for bringing that to my attention


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Now Randy once your done with this one, you will need to do one for steam locos as well


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Update: 

Aristo Craft/REA: 
Alco: FA1,FB1, RS-3 
EMD: E8/E9, GP40, SD45 
GE: Dash 9 44CW, U25-B 
EMC: Doodle Bug 
Budd: RDC 

Bachmann: 
GE: 45 Ton Center Cab 


LGB: 
Alco/MLW: DL535E 
EMD: F7 
GE: Genesis 

Lionel: 
EMD: GP7, GP20 

MTH: 
EMD: F3 
GE: Dash 8 


USAT: 
Alco: PA1, PB1, S4 
EMD: F3,GP7/9, GP30, GP38-2, NW2, SD40-2, SD70 MAC 
GE: 44 ton Center cab 

Whimsical Catagory: 
Aritso Craft: 
Critter 
Center Cab 
Egg Liner 

Gas Powered Switchers 
Accucraft: 
WMC: Whitcomb - Gas Mechanical 
PLW: Plymouth - Gas Mechanical 

Bachmann: 
DLW: Davenport - Gas Mechanical 

LGB: 
Caterpillar?: 2 and 3 axle Switchers 


Electric Catagory: 
MTH: 
Pennsylvania RR?: GG-1

USAT: 
Pennsylvania RR?: GG-1


Thanks for the suggestions and corrections so far 

Randy


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 07 Dec 2009 01:44 PM 
Now Randy once your done with this one, you will need to do one for steam locos as well


















Nick, let's see how things go with the Diesels before I commit to doing the Steam Engines.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 07 Dec 2009 01:44 PM 
Now Randy once your done with this one, you will need to do one for steam locos as well



















We already have one! 

http://gold.mylargescale.com/scotty...guide.html 

although I never thought to add "prototype manufacturer" info..that could be useful!

Scot


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The LGB "caterpillar" 2-axle diesel is a Davenport, built for the D&RGW. The 3-axle version of the same is fanciful. 

Later, 

K


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Be nice if you could add in the size of the motor blocks and distance between their axles. I know this was done some, but the chart 
is incomplete.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry Barnes on 07 Dec 2009 03:15 PM 
Be nice if you could add in the size of the motor blocks and distance between their axles. I know this was done some, but the chart 
is incomplete. 



yeah, there is still some missing data...I fill it in as people send me stuff..
unfortunately I dont own an example of every locomotive! 
so I cant do it all myself..(hint hint..always looking for more data!) 

Scot


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry Barnes on 07 Dec 2009 03:15 PM 
Be nice if you could add in the size of the motor blocks and distance between their axles. I know this was done some, but the chart 
is incomplete. 

Hi Jerry

I'll be glad to add about any info so long as people provide the info to me. Like Scot, I don't own most of these locomotives and need everyones help in putting this spread sheet together.

Randy


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy, 
I have the Robert's Lines Pioneer Zephyer, 100 sets were made in 1989.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 07 Dec 2009 03:03 PM 
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 07 Dec 2009 01:44 PM 
Now Randy once your done with this one, you will need to do one for steam locos as well



















We already have one! 

http://gold.mylargescale.com/scotty...guide.html 

although I never thought to add "prototype manufacturer" info..that could be useful!

Scot 



Hi Scot

That is a very informative chart you have for the Steam Engines. Maybe you could post it on MLS and ask Dwight to make it a sticky at the top of the Rolling Stock forum.

Randy


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, I tried sorting by the locomotive type alphabetically. I think sorting by model manufacturer as below is easier to read.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 07 Dec 2009 06:17 PM 
Question: I have sorted the chart by the locomotive type alphabetically. Is this preferable, or should I sort by Model manufacturer? 









I would think by Model manufacturer, most people have manufacture that they prefer....Also MTH has a F-7 now..


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Minor nit:http://finescalerr.it/

According to finescalerr.it com the LGB D&RGW #50 switcher was mfd by Davenport-Beseler:

"The D&RGW acquired Number 50 in 1963 from the Sumpter Valley Railway Company and put her to work as the Durango yard switcher. The SV had purchased her new in 1937 from the Davenport-Beseler Locomotive Works and numbered her 101. She had a 200 horsepower Caterpillar engine."

Ref: http://www.finescalerr.com/product_reviews/LGB-D&RGW-Number-50-Diesel-Switcher.html

Edit: forgot to add EMD GP-20. LGB also made a D&RG EMD GP-20 diesel (LGB #2056) as part of their Queen Mary series 

Al


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 07 Dec 2009 04:32 PM 



Hi Scot

That is a very informative chart you have for the Steam Engines. Maybe you could post it on MLS and ask Dwight to make it a sticky at the top of the Rolling Stock forum.

Randy



Randy,
its been posted here! 
many times..it was created here!
its just been awhile since its come up in a new discussion..
Scot


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 07 Dec 2009 03:03 PM 
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 07 Dec 2009 01:44 PM 
Now Randy once your done with this one, you will need to do one for steam locos as well



















We already have one! 

http://gold.mylargescale.com/scotty...guide.html 

although I never thought to add "prototype manufacturer" info..that could be useful!

Scot 



Thanks Scot, never knew it was there....


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Scot 

My only thought is the amount of G Gaugers that won't know it's there. 

I seldom go to mylargescale.com myself.

Randy


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB also made a GG-1 - 










-Brian


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## GaryY (Jan 2, 2008)

You may want to change the RDC to RDC-1 as that was the model type ...also Aristo is coming out with an RDC-3 soon as well.

Gary


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And you might want to add minimum radius to each loco...

Here's an LGB on an R1 curve...


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 Dec 2009 07:47 PM 
And you might want to add minimum radius to each loco...

Here's an LGB on an R1 curve...











OOOOOOOOOOO That looks nasty going around that curve......


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## GaryY (Jan 2, 2008)

Just noticed USAT has an F3B diiesel unit as well as the F3A.


Gary


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

NOT To KNIT 

BUT Pennsylvania Railroad locomotive classes DO NOT use a hyphen. It is a GG1 NOT GG-1. ALL SPFs will be offended!! A G class steam locomotive is a 4-6-0, a GG1 is two Gs back-to-back; a 4-6-0+0-6-4. In electric parlance, a 2-C+C-2. 

Merry Christmas. See you at Cabin Fever in January.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The D&RGW acquired Number 50 in 1963 from the Sumpter Valley Railway Company... 

Thanks, Al. 

Later, 

K


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## DTI356 (Jan 3, 2008)

Randy, 

Great idea. 

My .02 cents worth: 

USA Trains makes the GP7 only......they call some GP9s but they are just GP7s with dynamic brakes....not real GP9s 

Also you can add the 1/32 American Standard 'Great Trains' F40PH (EMD) although it's a shortened version it can be extended to scale length.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By DTI356 on 08 Dec 2009 04:15 PM 
Randy, 

Great idea. 

My .02 cents worth: 

USA Trains makes the GP7 only......they call some GP9s but they are just GP7s with dynamic brakes....not real GP9s 

Also you can add the 1/32 American Standard 'Great Trains' F40PH (EMD) although it's a shortened version it can be extended to scale length. 

Ah, the Great Trains F40PH, another one I'd forgot.

Thanks


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

OK 

I've made serveral updates. 

As far as the USAT not really making a GP9, they (USAT) list a diesel as a GP9 so I am including it. This chart is not meant to decide the prototype accuracy of any paticular type Diesel Locomotive. 

I still need help on several items. 

Also, if anyone would like me to email them the chart in Excel form, just send a request to my email address below. 

Once again, thanks to all that have contributed info. 

Randy


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

USA Trains and LGB dont make a GP20...only Lionel made the GP20. 

LGB had a weird fictional mutant hybrid loco that some have maybe called a GP20.. 
(I found one on-line auction where someone called it a GP20..but they probably just made that up.) 
because I can find no on-line reference to LGB ever calling it a GP20 themselves..im not sure what LGB called it.. 
its LGB #2056 (might be some other numbers too..) 
but its not even close to a real GP20. 
it has the alco cab and nose, with a vaguely EMD-ish long hood.. 
it actually has 6-axle trucks, and an EMD SD fan arrangement..so there is actually nothing "GP" about it at all..
I think that one on-line auction calling it a GP-20 just had no idea what to call it..so they guessed..and guessed wrong.

the loco is pure fiction.. 
I would label it: 

LGB 
Freelance diesel (Alco cab and nose, EMD body) 
none (under prototype manufacturer) 
1/22.5 
6 (axels) (all the photos I found show 6 axles..not 4) 
4ft dia/R1 

I would put it under the "whimsical" catagory.. 

you should probably use 1/22.5 for LGB..not 1/22. 
no one rounds it off to 1/22 
everyone always says 1/22.5 

just like its always 1/20.3, not 1/20. 

thanks, 
Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

ah ha.. 
here is a look at that mysterious LGB diesel: 

http://toysaler.com/lgb-g-2156s-san...sel-engine

"Queen Mary Series"..and I have found two numbers associated with this body style: 

LGB 2056 (Rio Grande paint scheme) 
LGB 2156S (Santa Fe paint scheme) 

This is different than the LGB Alco-MLW DL535E loco..which is properly "all Alco" 
and is a mostly accurate (accurate to LGB standards) to the actual Alco-MLW Whitepass 3-foot gauge diesel.. 
that one can stay out of the whimsical catagory. 

The mutant LGB has what appears to be the same Alco cab, nose, frame and trucks.. 
but for some unknown reason they gave it a EMD long hood..based roughly on the EMD SD40.. 
(it has the SD40 fan arrangement) 

still pure fiction!  

its odd LGB has never used that EMD longhood on anything else..like an actual EMD loco! 
strange.. 

Scot


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

The Aristo Railbus was labled as the Reo Railbus. Reo was a truck manuafacturer. It was based upon the original DELTON DOZIE which had a Mack hood and radiator. Aristo did not obtain the rights to "Mack." I think the scale is 1:24.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

ok latest changes made 

still need help with minimum curve radius/diameter


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

ok Guys 

I still need help with this chart, please. 

What scale is the HLW stuff? 

What is the minimumk curve radius the MTH GG1 will work on along with some other. 

Please help 

Randy


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Randy, Heartland loco works site says they are 1/24 scale! Regal


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## GaryY (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Randy,
I dug up my RDC manual and it says the minimum radius is 4 ft ... thanks for doing this by the way...it's appreciated.

Gary


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## GaryY (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy,
I did a search on the HLW reviews in GR and they said the Mack and Railcar are 1/24th scale.
Gary


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy,
Thought I had posted this before, but guess not. Roberts Lines made the Pioneer Zephyer in 1989. 8' radius.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Jerry

Can you provide me with the number of axles, Prototype manufacturer and scale?

Thanks 

Randy


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary & Regal 

Thank you both for the info 

Randy


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## fwtxrr (Oct 14, 2009)

i don't want to make anyone mad, but i thought this was interesting. hope you like if you haven't already seen this. i know it's off the path of this forum. sorry. http://www.urbaneagle.com/data/RRdieselchrono.html


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy,
8 axles. It has articulated trucks so the center car shares with the two end cars. Power truck is in front, it has two axles driven by a large Pitman motor. Rear
observation car also had a Pitman motor and a two axles driven, I removed that one though, was a different speed than the front!

Bob Thon of Robert's Lines designed it and had it made in Korea. It is 1/32nd scale out of metal. The prototype was made in 1934 by Edward G. Budd Manufacturing Co of Philadelphia. Diesel powered by a 660 hp two-cycle Winton Diesel engine, capapble of 100 mph.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah, great info Jerry 

Thank you 

Randy


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Randy, 

Since your list is for "g gauge" which is 1/29 scale, I believe MTH should be struck from the list as their F3 and Dash 8 are No. 1 (1/32 scale). 

MTH F3, 1:32 scale 

http://www.trains.com/grw/default.aspx?c=a&id=501 


MTH Dash-8, 1:32 scale 

http://www.trains.com/grw/default.aspx?c=a&id=179 

-Ted 


EDIT:


Correction,

It looks like G scale is meant to include more than just 1/29 scale - also, sorry about the redundant post as I could not erase it.

-Ted


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Posted By Ted Doskaris on 13 Dec 2009 12:02 AM 
Randy, 

Since your list is for "g gauge" which is 1/29 scale, I believe MTH should be struck from the list as their F3 and Dash 8 are No. 1 (1/32 scale). 

MTH F3, 1:32 scale 

[url]http://www.trains.com/grw/default.aspx?c=a&id=501 [/url] 

MTH Dash-8, 1:32 scale 

[url]http://www.trains.com/grw/default.aspx?c=a&id=179 [/url] 
-Ted


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Ted 
'G ga.' is generic as it only denotes the distance betwwen the rails.... not any scale per say...


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

"G scale" is not generic..and its also not 1/29!  

"G scale" refers to one specific scale, only one, in the whole "Large Scale" world.. 
G scale is 1/22.5 scale, meter gauge on 45mm track, most commonly associated with LGB. 

"G gauge" is generic..doesnt really apply to anything specific, often used in the generic sense to mean all "Large Scale" trains.. 
any and all trains that run on 45mm track, regardless of scale. 

Aristocraft and some other manufacturers have started putting a round "G-45mm" logo on their boxes.. 
(the logo doesn't say "scale" or "gauge"..on purpose im sure!)  
the logo is meant to be easy identifier for people who dont understand all the different scale differences.. 
if you see the "G-45mm" logo, you know the train in the box is compatable with "G gauge"..
scale doesnt factor into it.. 

this is "G" in the totally generic sense..but it doesnt apply to 1/29 scale only..it doesnt apply to any *one* specific scale. 

Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Scot, you are free to have your own definitions. 

The term "G scale" is everywhere, and is used pretty generically by most people. You cannot fight the masses on a crusade to convince "G scale" means 1:22.5 only. 

I also disagree with your statement "G gauge" is generic, it's not, and you even support it with the second half of your sentence... it means 45mm between the rails, no implication of scale. 

It's really like insisting that everyone only measure their curves in radius, not diameter... might be a better idea, but cannot change everyone now... 

Regards, Greg


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys 

This chart was meant to cover all North American Diesel model trains designed to operate on 45 MM track. G Gauge, G scale or call it what you want. 

I only hope the chart is helpful. 

Randy


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 13 Dec 2009 10:46 AM 
Scot, you are free to have your own definitions. 

The term "G scale" is everywhere, and is used pretty generically by most people. You cannot fight the masses on a crusade to convince "G scale" means 1:22.5 only. 

I also disagree with your statement "G gauge" is generic, it's not, and you even support it with the second half of your sentence... it means 45mm between the rails, no implication of scale. 

It's really like insisting that everyone only measure their curves in radius, not diameter... might be a better idea, but cannot change everyone now... 

Regards, Greg 



Greg,
they arent "my" definations..they are the correct definations. 

there is no "crusade"..there are no masses to be fought. 

its just the way it is. 


you can disagree about "G scale" meaning only 1/22.5 scale..but in that particular case, you would be wrong.

I do agree with you about "G gauge"...we are both correct...it is both generic, and specific..
it is generic when used in reference to the trains themselves ..

people say "G gauge trains" all the time..in that sense, the term "g gauge" is generic.
it is specific when referring to the track itself..
but the term is used to describe both the trains, and the track.


Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree, "G gauge" should refer to the track, and not the trains, and many people use it for scale. 

But where is the definition of "G scale"? 

I checked the NMRA site, there are 3 standards that have to do with scale, S1.1, S1.2, and S1.3 ... none of them refer to "G scale" 

There is "Large Scale" where the scale "varies", and none of the 3 documents specify a scale of 1:22.5 ... 

"Correct" is in the mind of the beholder here I believe... 

I agree that many people may agree with you, but many people use "G scale" as a generic term... 

Regards, Greg


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, but what I'd like to understand is just how one keeps 0.375" (9.52mm) Scale To Foot for LS, with a static track gauge and a variable Common/Fractional & Proportion values.


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## GaryY (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy...thanks for the chart and it will come in handy. 

Gary


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 13 Dec 2009 09:56 PM 
I agree, "G gauge" should refer to the track, and not the trains, and many people use it for scale. 

But where is the definition of "G scale"? 

I checked the NMRA site, there are 3 standards that have to do with scale, S1.1, S1.2, and S1.3 ... none of them refer to "G scale" 

There is "Large Scale" where the scale "varies", and none of the 3 documents specify a scale of 1:22.5 ... 

"Correct" is in the mind of the beholder here I believe... 

I agree that many people may agree with you, but many people use "G scale" as a generic term... 

Regards, Greg 

True, the NMRA does not presently mention "G-Scale", but I do believe they used to in some previous publications when discussing creating standards.

I remember an argument being made some time ago (here on MLS) that only products made by LGB could be called "G-Scale" because it was the term they invented and as such it represented their 1:22.5 scale ONLY!

The arbitrary assignment of a letter to represent something that is very easily expressed in more understandable terms seems to be done as sort of a need to make it mysterious and only known by the "cognoscenti of the craft"... makes humans feel important when they know something that others do not. It only has meaning to someone that has had it explained to them. Which means those 'in the know" are sought by those who "want to know". It is a human need to be "needed".

But it sure seems to be counterproductive to attracting people to the hobby... i.e.: increasing sales! How can confusing your customer base increase sales? Worse yet, someone may buy a product and find it is not right with things they already have and so will totally avoid any more products from that manufacturer/vendor, even if that manufacturer/vendor also supplies products that would meet their needs.

"G-Gauge" is actually just as useless. That term does not supply any meaningful information, either. Just say "45-mm gauge" and be done with it. No further explanation is necessary when stated as such.

BUT! BOTH of those terms (G-Scale and G-Gauge) are used by everybody... we, the general unwashed masses, AND many of the manufactures and vendors. People here on MLS do and I have seen print advertisements in the various magazines and catalogs (and on the net) that claim a train or accessory is "G-Scale". I have seen boxes of train cars from several manufacturers that have "G-Scale" printed on the box.

It does seem that more recently the product packaging is more apt to be labeled with something other than just "G-scale", but the terms are so ingrained in the vocabulary that, unfortunately, they will probably never go away.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nicely written! 

My points exactly, many people and manufacturers use the "G scale" generically, and "G gauge" when applied to track gauge, means 45mm. 

Manufacturers are getting "better" about informing people about the true scale, but "G scale" will be applied to many different scales in advertising, and in common parlance for quite a while. 

Regards, Greg


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Great reference chart Randy, thanks for assembling that. Please don't forget to add the GP-20 in the LGB section. They made a D&RG version in black w/orange markings for their Queen Mary series.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Al

Others have said it really isn't a GP-20. While I have seen where a seller on Ebay called it a GP-20, I looked all over the web and could not find any where that LGB called the loco a GP-20. So I have listed it under the Whimsical catagory.

If you can find where it was referred to being a GP-20 in a LGB catalog, I'll move it up under the LGB models.

Thanks

Randy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

LGB made an Alco. They also made the "Queen Mary series" abortion with the Alco nose and a different treatment of the rear hood, like adding a dynamic brake blister. 

Regards, Greg


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 24 Dec 2009 01:30 PM 
LGB made an Alco. They also made the "Queen Mary series" abortion with the Alco nose and a different treatment of the rear hood, like adding a dynamic brake blister. 

Regards, Greg 



Thats the loco some people are calling the LGB GP20..but they are wrong..
it actually has zero characteristics of a real EMD GP20..not sure why anyone would even _guess_ its GP20..its nothing like a GP20 at all..
anyone who calls it a GP20 is simply flat-out wrong.. 

The mutant LGB diesel in question:












Vaguely Alco cab and nose, but not accurate for any real Alco.
vaguely Alco 6-axle trucks, but not accurate for any real Alco trucks..
Vaguely EMD SD40 long hood..but not totally accuratre for a SD40 either..
it has no EMD GP characteristics at all.. 

its basically unlike any real locomotive in every possible detail! 

LGB took "freelance/whimsical" to a whole new level with that one!
I have no idea why.. 




a real GP20:

http://www.railpictures.net/images/...895764.jpg 

different cab
different nose
different trucks (EMD 4-axle trucks Vs. Alco 6-axle trucks)
different long hood..

the LGB and the real GP20 are 100% different..in _every_ detail..
the LGB diesel is not a GP20..really..seriously.. not even _remotely_ close..

I think I have said enough!  


Scot


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

The LGB road diesel appears to be a hermaphrodite based on the narrow gauge prototype White Pass & Yukon diesel made by ALCO / MLW.

The LGB model mostly resembles the front of the prototype - whereas the rear hood resembles an EMD product similar to that of a GP40 given the fans, dynamic brake, air intake and side doors - excepting the 4 section radiator grill.

See for yourself below: White Pass & Yukon Prototype Loco Info.

Right side picture of Loco 109:









Left side picture of Loco 108:










Locomotive Data -Drawings, Two links:

http://narrowmind.railfan.net/WPYR/diesel/DL535Especs/DL535Especs-3.jpg

http://narrowmind.railfan.net/WPYR/diesel/DL535Especs/DL535Especs-4.jpg


White Pass & Yukon Diesel Data Specs:

http://www.wpyr.com/company/diesellocomotives.html#diesel

http://narrowmind.railfan.net/WPYR/diesel/WPYdieselSpecs.jpg

-Ted


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I do believe that the loco is based on the Narrow gage RR of the White Pass. it is not a EMD loco for sure it is a Alco loco. later RJD


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

We already established all of this earlier in this thread! 


LGB has two diesels that use the same Alco cab and the same trucks.
One is in fact a close, basically accurate model of the Whitepass diesel..
That one is the LGB DL-535E.
its a pretty good model of a real locomotive..

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/LGB...2055_1.bmp 



The "mutant" LGB diesel discussed above.The other LGB diesel, this one:








Is not close to any real locomotive.. 

(and it has a vaguely *SD*40 long hood..not a *GP*40 longhood..as I said, it has not one single GP characteristic at all..) 
it is *not* close the White Pass diesel, except for the nose and cab, but thats it..


Scot


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## pfdx (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 25 Dec 2009 05:11 PM 
We already established all of this earlier in this thread! 


LGB has two diesels that use the same Alco cab and the same trucks.
One is in fact a close, basically accurate model of the Whitepass diesel..
That one is the LGB DL-535E.
its a pretty good model of a real locomotive..

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/LGB...2055_1.bmp 



The "mutant" LGB diesel discussed above.The other LGB diesel, this one:








Is not close to any real locomotive.. 

(and it has a vaguely *SD*40 long hood..not a *GP*40 longhood..as I said, it has not one single GP characteristic at all..) 
it is *not* close the White Pass diesel, except for the nose and cab, but thats it..


Scot




While this may be a model mutant it is not far from a prototype. In the late 50's and through the 60's EMD repowered diesel locomotives from Alco, Baldwin and Fairbanks Morse. They retained the frame, trucks, traction motors, cab and varing amounts of the electrical cabinet depending on the owners spectifications with 567 and 645 prime movers after the originals died or the mechanical department was fed up with the quircks. The result was similar to the model, a locomoitve with a "headache" or an EMD looking long hood glued on. The EMD engines are taller because of the intake manifold/airbox being incorporated into the block. 

GE offered a similar program with the early U-boats that reused the frame and trucks which produced some U30C and U33C's with Alco drop equalizer trucks.

Back to the Also/EMD's the Rock Island had some FM H15-44, RS2's and Babyface alcos repowered. I belive the NYC has some RS's.

Here is Rock Island RS2 #453

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/sh...id=1516381

Sorry I don't know how to insert the photo, but it does look like a mutant.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Many thanks to Randy for his time, effort, and excellent work on putting together the chart.









The thought occurred to me about adding all the road names with their road numbers that each manufacturer has offered. No doubt that will take some time and effort to ascertain and do.

Well done,
-Ted

P.S.

The 1/22.5 LGB "mutant":

I agree with Scott about the mutant LGB made loco.
I should have noticed the dual fans on the dynamic brake blister would more closely mimic that of the EMD SD 40 loco - not the GP40.

BTW, there is a good reference book about the EMD SD40s entitled,
"General Motors Phenomenal SD40 Series Diesel-Electric Locomotives"
by James W. Kerr
Published by Delta Publications Associated Division, DPA-LTA Enterprises, Inc. 1980; No ISBN - out of print.

Having looked at the SD40, SD40-2 and GP40 (aside from the axle count / trucks) there is close resemblance between them for the hood sections. For example, on the long hood right side they seem to have the same amount of service doors & panels (7) below the "cooling air inlet shutters" (radiator grille area) and exhaust stack / dynamic brake area aft of the air intake (10). The LGB "Mutant" appears to have 8 doors / panels here.

***

As to pfdx comments:

"...this may be a model mutant it is not far from a prototype..." 
Good observation, and yes, swapping prime movers and trucks was done by the prototype manufacturers' rebuilds, but I have not found evidence that this was done with the narrow gauge road switcher locos like that of the White Pass and Yukon. For example, to retrofit a GP7/9 long hood like done with a Rock Island AlCO may not be too practical for a narrower loco to rationalize the "Mutant".

- Just a comment and no offense to anyone as some folks like the whimsical - like the Aristo Eggeliner.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted 

I've thought about adding Road Names to the type diesels, but like you said it would involve a lot of work. 

I haven't dismissed the idea, but it will require help from others to put this together. 

Randy


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is another dinky little 1:20.3 narrow gauge Whitcomb. 










Made by Trail Creek.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony 

I can't find any info on Trail Creek. Do you know if they have a website?


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

They no longer exist.


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