# Advice on spray booth size, please...



## dawgnabbit (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi All...


With my typically bad timing I posted this question just before the great software change-over...so now I'll post it again here and hope somebody sees it this time.


Conceptual design of my folding, wall-hung spray booth is complete.  The working face (the opening) is to be 32 inches wide by 20 inches high, and the depth is about 22 inches.  Before I do the detailed design and start fabrication, I ask for the wisdom of the group:  _is this big enough?_


What's the biggest object you would think a large scaler with primary interest in narrow gauge prototypes and "old-tyme" western buildings will be likely to want to stuff into a paint booth?  And how much clearance around the "paintee" is required for airbrush access?


As always, I will listen carefully to all advice and helpful hints from the MLS crew.


Thank you,


Dawg /Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/Fck/FCKeditor/editor/images/smiley/msn/shades_smile.gif


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Dawg,


  I  don't know what size to recomend but here is a link to a plan to build one. I intend to make one and i want a turntable in it about 48 inches in dia.


http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/LawrenceWallace/booth.htm


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## Greg Stevens (Jan 3, 2008)

Well guys, I don't know what size Larry Wallace recommends, but it should be large enough to take a passenger car with plenty of side to side clearance, front to back clearance, and height to put in a coffee can to get it off the floor of the booth. Also get the largest lazy susan type platform you can to turn it around. Mine is 12 inches in diameter and not large enough. Good luck.


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## dawgnabbit (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi, Chuck


Wow...you're gonna need a *BIG* booth to hold that turntable!


Thank you for the link.  I actually had read that article and factored many of its features into my own design...Yogi's a very creative and helpful guy!


Dawg /Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/Fck/FCKeditor/editor/images/smiley/msn/shades_smile.gif


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## dawgnabbit (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,


Good suggestions, thanks.  Especially the lazy susan.  I'll certainly want to add that.


Why the coffee can?  Is that for painting from a low angle, or what? 


Dawg /Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/Fck/FCKeditor/editor/images/smiley/msn/shades_smile.gif


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I had replied, but as you said....locked in the move. 

Anyhow, from years of working around, evaulating, and setting up spray booths for work, everything from bench top ones to ones holding three 1:1 railroad cars, figure your biggest size you need, and then some. I see a lot of folks that build or buy one that outgrow it shortly. Remember spray pattern, even with the lazy susan, you need to be able to freely swing past both ends, and need clearance for air around whatever you are painting. 

The link referenced above has floated around several forums (train and non train) for years. While it has some positives, there are a LOT of negatives and potentially dangerous misinformation in it, especially the rationale of the brushless motor with the stove hood fan.


 


EDIT: I think this may be the origin of the booth design above: http://pages.interlog.com/~ask/scale/tips/booth.htm


EDIT 2.0: For some reason, the link above will not complete, you will need to cut and past it.


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## Greg Stevens (Jan 3, 2008)

That is one reason Dawg, but the most important one is that in order to paint the bottom of details, I always start by inverting the model, shoot it on the bottom to get the under side of any details, then carefully turn it over and get the top, plus fill in any bare or partially covered spots on the sides. The coffee can keeps the bottom of the model from sticking on what ever you use to sit it on; ie lazy susan, newspaper, etc. It just helps keep things neater and cleaner and helps to keep your finish from getting messed up. Good luck with your project.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a MUCH better booth design I found for modelling, Vs the one shown above.


Here, the modeller points out the drabacks of finish quality and massive paintloss with an updraft design such as the "stove hood" idea.  The last updraft booth I dealt with for work was an absolute disaster for its owner, costing them in both product and legal issues.  Also discusses flow rates and fan to booth sizing.


He also addresses the electrical issues and discusses how some of his ideas are and are not fully Kosher.  Granger is the place to go for fan units however.


The link is good, you may need to cut and paste it if the new MLS cuts it:


http://www.briansmodelcars.com/tutorials/tutorial.asp?TutorialID=23&CurPage=1


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Good tip, I have used blocks of wood, large size nuts, etc.


Another trick I have used for years on cars is a pair of "paint trucks" that I mount to the model when painting, and remove when done.  Holds the model up, plus gives you a point to touch to move it if needed.


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## dawgnabbit (Jan 2, 2008)

Garrett,


Thanks.  Actually, I had read _that_ thread, too.  Lot of good stuff out there if you search.  I agree hanging dirty filters above the model isn't the best idea.


I found a "like new" Dayton 4C444 shaded pole squirrel-cage blower for my paint-booth-to-be for about half Grainger's price on eBay.  The motor is located completely out of the process airflow for safety.  Should suck the paint right off a model, too.


Dawg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By dawgnabbit on 01/04/2008 3:46 PM


Garrett,


Thanks.  Actually, I had read _that_ thread, too.  Lot of good stuff out there if you search.  I agree hanging dirty filters above the model isn't the best idea.


I found a "like new" Dayton 4C444 shaded pole squirrel-cage blower for my paint-booth-to-be for about half Grainger's price on eBay.  The motor is located completely out of the process airflow for safety.  Should suck the paint right off a model, too.


Dawg  


 



Dawg, from your photo, you look like a former co worker of mine....


Anyhow, is this your blower?


http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Shaded-Blower-1585RPM-115volts/dp/B000BK42DA


Appears to be an HVAC type blower. Can you find a spec sheet on CFM?  350 as above? I see the motor is on the outside, do you know what the fan itself and its housing are made of? Minor issue for the home hobbyist, but here is why:


There are two areas of fire hazard from spraybooths. One is from the paint mist/vapor (paint does not produce a true "fume" by definition) in the air with a solvent (not water) based paint. Anything that can produce a spark (motor, or even steel blade of fan hitting steel housing of booth in case of failure) if your solvent vapor is in within the “flammable range“. So this is the reason for non sparking fans that are intrinsically safe. Spilling, storage, gun cleaning, bonding, etc also apply as other sources of solvent mist or vapor being sucked out.


The other fire hazard is the buildup of combustible overspray (solvent or water based paint depending on pigments and filler used). This is all that paint build up. That rough fluffy stuff may look harmless, but oftentimes it can burn and or spontaneously combust, and the surface area of a bunch of flakes and particles is immense, adding to its fire load. 


This is another point of why to have a booth, to contain and control the overspray from getting everywhere.  In all honesty, conventional spray painting is the most inefficient way to coat something, but often yields the best results outside of electostatic or powder coating....$$$$/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif


Anyhow, overspray, so, this is the reason for the filters. Keeps the build up off the fan, thus reducing one part of the fire hazard, and keeps the fan itself from being coated, which will reduce its efficiency. Once the filter is loaded and flow is reduced (commercial booths use a manometer, search on Google for one made by Dywer to see how they work, the same thing could be done with some Tygon tubing, a Sharpie marker and some dyed oil for a lot less) it is time to change the filter. Remember the overspray and spontaneous combustion comment before just dropping it in the worksop trash and climbing up and going to bed.


This is also the reason to keep a booth clean inside, not store a bunch of paint in it, and not have wood tables, benches, etc in it, or make it out of something other than steel or masonry. The theory at this point, is if you do have a fire, it is contained (and in commercial booths, a fire suppression system such as sprinklers are employed) and does not burn down the factory (or your workshop and or house).


Sorry if this comes off a bit much, but in the past 10+ years I have seen a LOT of bad spray booths, and the occasional aftermath of what happens…./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Not sure what happened up above, I am sure a moderator can fix it tho......I do not even see a button for BLUE FONT/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif!!!


I wrote it in Word, then did a cut and paste for spell checker, so maybe this is why?/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif


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## dawgnabbit (Jan 2, 2008)

Garrett,


Much food for thought there, thanks.  To answer some of your questions...


Yes, that's the model blower I found.  I do have the full spec sheet and fan curve data for it.  It is an HVAC type blower, not the "non-explosive" sealed type.  The fan housing and impeller are steel.  The motor is "open dripproof," not TEFC, but it's located outside the process airflow and has its own separate cooling flow.  Paint buildup in the blower and exhaust ducting should be minimal, as the fan intake will be well-filtered.  The filters should also stop any metal fragments entering that might spark on impact with impeller.


I'm reasonably comfortable with the safety of the blower and the filtration I plan to use.  However, I hadn't considered your insights about making the booth itself out of metal to contain a fire if one should happen to start.  I'll give that some more thought.  Thanks.


Experienced inputs like that are what make MLS so useful to me!


Dawg 


P.S.  I was in the workforce so long almost everybody in the laser field thinks they know me!  Where might we have met?


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By dawgnabbit on 01/04/2008 10:41 PM


Garrett,


Much food for thought there, thanks.  To answer some of your questions...


Yes, that's the model blower I found.  I do have the full spec sheet and fan curve data for it.  It is an HVAC type blower, not the "non-explosive" sealed type.  The fan housing and impeller are steel.  The motor is "open dripproof," not TEFC, but it's located outside the process airflow and has its own separate cooling flow.  Paint buildup in the blower and exhaust ducting should be minimal, as the fan intake will be well-filtered.  The filters should also stop any metal fragments entering that might spark on impact with impeller.


I'm reasonably comfortable with the safety of the blower and the filtration I plan to use.  However, I hadn't considered your insights about making the booth itself out of metal to contain a fire if one should happen to start.  I'll give that some more thought.  Thanks.


Experienced inputs like that are what make MLS so useful to me!


Dawg 


P.S.  I was in the workforce so long almost everybody in the laser field thinks they know me!  Where might we have met?



Dawg:


Thanks for your reply.  You are probably right on your assumptions on your fan for the amount of spraying you are doing, just don't tell your homeowner's insurance...../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif


Metal....the fire codes specify this, but for low volume spraying (not daily), aluminum or other substantially non combustible materials (ahem) can be used....  I would be leary of using wood, especially if you had a spll as it will wick anything.  However, coverings are allowed for wood flooring, such as sheet steel....see where I am going .


Another option, what you may want to look at is the HVAC section of the local BigBoxHardware and see what they have, you may be able to find a galvanized large plenum or the like, or even a local HVAC contractor that may have something like this laying around....


If you really get bored (or interested)  the code of reference is the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) #33.  The code costs $$ and is not availble free online (a co worker found some older ones somewhere) but, OSHA 29 CFR 1910.107 is an older version (1970 or so) of the same code adopted by Fed OSHA, and can be found at www.osha.gov and search for spray finishing or the code number.


You may see me if you go to the post office much, those little posters on the wall..../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a question,  I think i read some where that if you use a water base paint in an airbrush or spray gun, you do not have to worry about a big bang as water base paint fumes will not explode. Can anyone confirm if this is true or not??


 


    chuckger


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By chuckger on 01/05/2008 4:33 AM


I have a question,  I think i read some where that if you use a water base paint in an airbrush or spray gun, you do not have to worry about a big bang as water base paint fumes will not explode. Can anyone confirm if this is true or not??


 


    chuckger



The funky blue post deals with this very topic.  The mist and vapor are not, but the dry overspray can be _combustible._


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## sprayboothsupplies.com (Jun 6, 2008)

Heh, thats funny, definately do NOT tell your insurance company  




www.sprayboothsupplies.com


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## jtutwiler (May 29, 2008)

Please forgive my ignorance, but is a spray booth needed if you are just doing detail (ie weathering) work, or just if you are doing overall painting of the model?


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

If you are doing any work with chalks, pigments or alcohol and or spraying anything I would reccommend a spray booth. 

Before I purchased mine on E-bay I was doing mine in the basement without one and the alcohol was making me sick and chalk was EVERYWHERE!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif 

You can make your own or buy a big honk'in one like mine. 

So I would reccommend one..outside doesn't work when it is windy and if it in a room you can paint any time of the day. 

I payed dearly but I have never regretted buying mine! 

Bubba


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## tbug (Feb 16, 2008)

I use a Paasche HSSB 22-16 Spray Booth (22"W x 20"D x 16"H). Thus far, works well for AMS rolling stock. Have yet to use it for Loco's or Passenger cars so can't help you there. I believe there would be enough suction to direct the overspray out the ductwork on oversize items sitting in front of the booth. Easy set-up to vent out a basement window so it can be used year-round. Very pleaed w/ it. Money well spent.


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## Lawrence Wallace (Jan 2, 2008)

Dawg 
Here is a link to a nice booth you can build yourself. 








http://home.interlog.com/~ask/scale/tips/booth.htm

_(Deleted second reply of double posting, SteveC mod.)_


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

I didn't see any posts that mentioned the overhead bar and coathanger hooks method of holding the victim to be sprayed in place. The hooks are so bent as to allow an easy 180 deg swap. I've never felt a need for a rotating table. 

My booth is a homemade unit somewhat smaller than the specs given. I put two levels of filters in front of a muffin fan, oriented to suck rather than blow. The furnace filters, coarse, then fine (next to the motor) filter almost everything. The one drawback is the frequency with which the filters have to be changed. The motor is directly behind the target. I've threatened for years to move it topside for the reasons stated elsewhere, but I wanted to keep the spray contained. It is. 

I have to wonder if the fumes generated by an air brush while using paint with volatiles is a hazard worth worrying about. 

Les


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